I dont believe in abortion, but if the states allow it then so be it, if you dont like it move to a different state, Im Pro-Life, but if a woman wants to have to deal with that in her head for the rest of her life who am i to say no?
And I do count a fetus as a part of a womans body, since a fetus is not self aware and unconcious. Like others here have stated, a fetus is no more of a life than a tumour.
The limit I think should be drawn is when the fetus has grown to a size where it is possible for the baby to survive and grow outside the mothers body.
@mrolof91 would you then ok killing the child after birth still attached to the umbilical cord? murder is abhorrible. no matter how you try to justify it.
Been reading through the debate here, just got a question for you all. Rape victims sometimes get pregnant. Would you want to be the doctor or a nurse telling that person they are by law forced to give birth? Wouldn't that lead to an increase in underground, non-safe abortion clinics?
Of course I think life is precious, but when the goverment tells people what to do and not to do with their own bodies, it rarely works out fine.
@mrolof91 what a poor excuse for an argument. life has still been created. who is to say what good could come from that little life. p.s. the government is now mandating that insurance providers, medical providers, and employers offer sterilization, abortificents, and contraceptives with no clause exempting those who would conscientiously refuse. sickening, a complete an utter abuse of religious and civil liberties.
As far as men having a say in this... I say they know and feel just as much as women do. Especially the ones who still want their child. If you cant handle the responsibility then give it to someone who can. That is so much more rewarding to a person than killing a human... no matter what size.
This little human, little fetus has a heartbeat not to long after conception. What would you think if your mother, the one who was breathing life into your tiny body, decided or was thinking about aborting you, just so she didn't have to put up with all of the responsibilities? You would have not had what you have now. Pretty sad to think about, huh?
I have not went back to read all of the posts that were put on here, but I have an argument. This fetus is not a creature. It is a human with HUMAN DNA. It has the same rights as we all do. The fetus may be a "clump" of cells... but hey so are you. People have to be responsible when it comes to sex. You have to be aware and ready of what the outcome may be. If the outcome is not what you expected, then please give someone who cant have a child a chance to be a parent.
Nice use of diction. Murder and child abuse are two different things. Don't distort the two. If you're going to argue please do so in an intelligent, assertive manner.
As a child developing in the womb is still part of you and not independent yet, it wouldn't be killing life. until it can function, although highly dependent, on its own, it is the child-bearer's choice whether to keep it.
Once it is born, it is considered murder. when it is growing, it is crudely yet accurate to say it is murder just as much as removing a tumor is murder.
@SuperTuberX You obviously know nothing about pregnancy. If the child has its own DNA code how can it be part of your body? And what if its a male child? Are you saying that part of a woman's body is male? that's not only ridiculous its also...well... yeah its just ridiculous.
@DavidUmstattd You obviously know nothing about arguing respectfully.
If the child is developing and inside its mother, it is still part of her.
yes, if its male its still part of her, because its not a human yet. when it is, she will give birth.
seeing as the fetus is attached and inside the woman, its still technically her body. if she got shot in the head, the baby would die. why? cause the baby isnt a baby yet.
I think there should be a cap though. Maybe no later than 3 months.
Privileged doctor. Start asking him to provide funding for the children, and for the parents to provide a stable nurturing environment and maybe you will see less of these bullshit adds.
@haaaaaaaaaand At what point should the person's own responsibility kick in for pregnancy? Never? We're all dependent on each other in one way or another, but the whole system collapses if the majority takes irresponsible behavior as a way of life. We've got to look at these life issues at some point and say "The minority can' no longer support the majority; they must start to take responsibility. It can be learned."
@ourmoons You DO know that babies don't get here from the stork, I assume? Well, then, you must know also that if ppl want sex, they should themselves be responsible for taking care of the children. That's how ppl with a good conscience have worked it out for millenia. When did it become someone else's fault that two ppl had sex and got pg? Wanted? You want sex, you pay for it yourself...or don't want sex till you're ready to pay for it. How's that for a plan?
@finishstrongdoc yeah, if you want sex you pay for it yourself. exactly. which should be YOUR OWN fucking choice how you deal with it. only people with a good conscience dont have abortions? many great, smart, empowered, women have had abortions. Sincec when did it become someone elses fault that two people had sex and got pregnant? It's not anyone else fault, it's THEIR fault. So it should be THEIR choice of what they plan to do with the baby.
@ourmoons I see u don't understand where personal responsibility comes in to the equation. I said it was no one else's fault that the two made a baby when they weren't ready to support it. "Not ready/ NO SEX", not "not ready/HAVE SEX."
The "wanted" part of the equation? SOMEBODY will WANT the baby, when it was conceived by UNready,UNwilling, careless (NOT"empowered", or"smart", or"great") men&women. The ADOPTIVE parents are powered,smart,great ppl.
@finishstrongdoc I'm not saying everyone who's pregnant should get an abortion. I support children, families, and pregnancy. I also support CHOICE. it's not YOUR choice it's THEIRS! you should be able to do what you want with your body
@ourmoons What I do with my body is an extension of me; my property, my money is mine. But my govt has a right to use it for legit reasons, but only that part which I choose to give. For non-legit reasons, my govt has no right to me or my money or property. The child in the womb has a right to all I have upon my death if I choose to give it. The child may or may not want it, but I have no right to make that choice moot by killing it. The child should have equal rights, not fewer.
@ourmoons and the baby's body? the baby's choice? you choose to have sex, you are then part of giving life and that child says LET ME LIVE! as you or anyone else would.
@answerslowly the baby can't make a fucking choice it's a fetus its brain isn't developed enough to grasp the concept of choice how could it possibly make a choice
@ourmoons You were a fetus once, you dork. If you want to be a murderer, that's fine, just keep it to yourself cause no one else is buying your delusion.
@ourmoons How is a creature with a different DNA code from yours part of your own body? What if the child is male? Are you saying part of your body is male? That's sick.
@DavidUmstattd the baby is attached to MY body, so yeah..if it's the babies male i guess a part of my body would be male, due to the fact i have a male baby inside me. A creature with a different DNA is a part of me because it is attached to me, it lives inside me
@ourmoons Not ready to support a baby? NO SEX, not "not ready/HAVE SEX";that's not "great,smart, empowered", it's FAIL.
Great smart successful ppl wait 2 have sex & are ready to accept RESPONSIBILITY...even for OTHER'S mistakes of ONLY wanting SEX, but NOT WANTING responsibility.
CALL THINGS WHAT THEY ARE., NOT WHAT THEY AREN'T
Great smart empowered Americans are willing to PAY for adoption, not abortion; so farONE BILLION dollars has been given to Banned Parenthood, by STUPID gov't.
Way to stand up for a woman's LIBERTY, you fucking hypocrite old man! Sorry if a woman's LIFE isn't as important as the parasite who lives in her! How dare you?! If you need a kidney to live, are you going to steal something else from my body?
@Taintedramen We have recently discovered that the fetus transfers its own stem cells to the mother, which then provide therapies and even cures for some illnesses she may have. These stem cells stay with the mother for her lifetime, whether the fetus is carried to term or not. Far from being a parasite, then, the fetus is capable of BENEVOLENCE toward the mother. She may have a dozen abortions, but the BENEFITS of those feta stay with her, regardless that she ended their lives....fool.
@finishstrongdoc Okay, one, who is "we"? Did you discover it? When did you have time to come out of your laboratory to play on Youtube, Dr? Anywho, these are possibilities that for one, are completely untested, and two, if 100% true, shouldn't it still be the mother's right to chose to control her own body? And if the benefit is there whether the woman carries the baby to term or not, isn't that just more motivation for abortion?
@Taintedramen I'm not a Dr; I got that nickname in 'Nam; they called us "baby killers" & when I got out in '73 they started killing babies in the country I was working to defend, so I decide to keep on fighting for the Constitutional rights of Americans, as my Military Oath is never rescinded.
The source : "Do Chocolate Lovers Have Sweeter Babies?: The Surprising Science of Pregnancy" by Jena Pinctott
Dependence? We're all dependent.What gives me the right to ignore that & the killing innocents?
@finishstrongdoc Think about it, she could have the kid in her for like a couple months, then abort it before it stretches out her body, then do it over again. I doubt she'd ever be sick. And guess what, if she wants to, that's her choice. Because whether or not your unsubstantiated, but possible, claim is true, that baby still can't live unless she provides the womb. And since it's her body, it's her choice to provide that womb. Women deserve reproductive autonomy from males.
@Taintedramen Sure, you could do that, but the risk for injury goes up with every abortion:perforated uterus, bowel, etc. But, yes, you could have a dozen or more, get the benefits, and such, but at some point one would start to fell a dulling effect of the conscience, or completely lose any contact with a normal conscience. After all, childbirth still is the norm, though that might change, too. Sure, you could do that. I wouldn't recommend it, thjough would you? You're not that foolish,are you?
@finishstrongdoc Okay, one, dude, I was being sarcastic because I hold no emotional tie to a fictional fetus. Two, I am assuming that if you were someone who fought in Vietnam in 1973, you are a man. Therefore, your logic does not compute with someone who could actually face the issue of abortion. You essentially seem to think you are entitled to an opinion on something that will never effect your peace of mind. True to a Ron Paul advocate, unempathetic, sexist colors show.
@Taintedramen If the life of a small clump of cells can be legally terminated because it's a small clump of cells,then all clumped cells are terminally condemned by law. Roe was the beginning of the ultimate enslavement of mankind to laws that are not laws.
Unless and until Roe is terminated, no one anywhere is free from condemnation and enslavement to the State. Roe is the abolition of man, the law to end all laws.
Some wars are fought to set men free from oppression.
So your saying that because someone is a man therefore they're opinions about abortion are wrong and you're calling HIM sexist? You're the sexist for thinking that because someone is a man therefore they are unintelligent when it comes to this issue. You should be ashamed of yourself.
@Alexandraveum you are so niave to call him a liar he is by far one of the best GOP candidates that is running. he has predicted everything that would happen economically in our country for the past 30 years and no one will listen to him. He is anything but a liar and ill stand by that.
@pondwaterscum I like Ron Paul, and I'm rooting for him, HOWEVER, I was pointing out the fact that an aborted fetus is NOT able to live and breathe during the abortion for obvious reasons, such as the fact that you can't have abortions afer a certain period of time, and if a late abortion is preformed, I bellieve there will have been a lot of sedatives in the picture. Besides, during a REGULAR abortion, it is not a living breathing baby, it is in fact a buch of cells, NOT a living baby.
@shunsthebest No, at that point, they will not have been allowed to chose an abortion. SOME children will survive birth at week 24 (my friends baby being one of them) however, it is not usual, and the child will have to spend weeks, even months in the hospital before having a chance to live. I do not bellieve the US permits such a late abortion.
"Who are we to decide that we pick and throw one away and pick up and struggle to save the other ones?" WE are the women who choose to have an abortion, and what they want to do with their body is their choice, not everyone elses.
@ourmoons I have a choice to take away your life, too. I could end it so quickly. But then I would be tried and go to jail. Why should you be exempt from the law and choose to take life away from society? In no stage should you have a so called "right" to end life. Whether you want to believe it or not, that is a human being, your own child for God's sake. Mother's weep all around the world for their dead children. You take it for granted.
@Mattlarrivee the child is dependent on the life of the mother. If you needed a kidney and your bloodtype matched mine, would I be a criminal for saying you can't have my body to live?!
@Taintedramen Comparing a child to an organ is completely wrong, An organ supports life, it is not life. I see your point that you made. Even after birth the child is still dependent. What difference does it make that the child is in your womb?
I agree with him on the subject on abortion, it is disgusting, HOWEVER - as disgusting as it is, an abortion would NEVER EVER happen so late that the child would be breathing and crying.
Why is he lying like that? Having abortions is disgusting enough as it is- he doesn't need to make up stories about it!
Here is the rhetorical tool Paul uses: saying that late-term abortions are wrong (which I agree with) to make the point that all abortion is wrong (which I disagree with).
He is supposedly a libertarian, but if he was a true libertarian he would value a woman's choice whether to keep a fetus. He supports individual choice and civil liberties, but NOT a woman's choice over whether she wants something to grow inside her body for 9 months.
@mgm8822 Are you a Libertarian? I am. Just got my 2012 party card today. Been getting them for decades. I am in accord with Ron Paul. Pregnancy is not a disease. If I were a doctor, I would not do this. I would not, however, have a problem with the Morning After Pill or any chemical abortion. Ron Paul is of the same mind.
It's not about a right to the women's body, but the rights of the little humans inside. It's about personal responsibility, a mainstay of Libertarianism.
@fanadfilms I would consider myself a libertarian-socialist, but fundamentally yes,I would consider myself a libertarian.
The choice/life issue about balancing the rights of the fetus vs. the rights of the mother. In my book, and in the book of most rational humans, a grown adult that has been walking around the earth for decades has rights to life and bodily integrity that supersede those of a fetus.
@mgm8822 You can't be a Libertarian/socialist. The two philosophies are musically exclusive and incompatible. It's an oxymoron. A grown adult has the responsibility to not engage in risky behavior and then punish the unborn for their own lack of consideration and discernment. Do you have the right to murder a baby that is born premature? What is the difference between that baby and the one still inside? Are they different simply because one is still physically attached?
@fanadfilms One can be a libertarian socialist. Basically, I believe that the state has a role to play in providing certain services to its citizens, but should not infringe constitutional civil liberties. It's a long explanation though, and I'd rather not get into it here because it's not relevant to the topic.
You said that libertarians support personal responsibility. I somewhat disagree.
@mgm8822 Hate to tell you this, but if you came to a convention of REAL Libertarians, those of us who are active in Libertarian politics, in the PARTY, we'd laugh at you. You're a Chomsky-follower. As for your last statement? Bollocks.
@fanadfilms I can back my beliefs up with facts and logic. Sorry if I violated your libertarian identity by claiming that I am a libertarian socialist. It still stands that I consider myself a libertarian on civil liberties issues. If that does not accord with what you believe, that's too bad.
@fanadfilms I was trying to have a respectful debate with you over a serious issue, but you decided to go the ad hominem route rather than address my points. I'll take that as an admission of defeat.
@fanadfilms I think that libertarianism supports the direct opposite: the right to be irresponsible, as long as that irresponsibility does not harm anyone else.
We obviously disagree about who is harmed by abortion or carrying a fetus to term.
But I would like to add that I think drug use of any kind is generally irresponsible, but I still think that people should have right to decide for themselves whether to take drugs and which drugs to take.
@fanadfilms One more thing: you are viewing abortion as an all or nothing occurrence. I am viewing it as a balancing of the competing rights of several actors: the mother, father, and fetus.
I think that clearly an 8-month old fetus is a baby. I also think that a 1 month old fetus is NOT a baby. It is the gray area in between that I think we have to dry to navigate.
@fanadfilms That is not to say that a fetus does not have rights, but on the balance, the rights of the mother win out.
This should especially be so since males (which are usually a necessary component of the child-production process) are not always reliable partners and providers. To force a woman to have a child punishes her by forcing her to carry and give birth to the child, and then punishes her again to raise the child even if daddy runs for the hills.
You crazy pro-lifers who argue absolute protection of all life from conception onward do realize the percussion, don't you? If you make it illegal to terminate embryo's (as Ron Paul would have it with his SoLA), you not only get rid of a tun of research (including that needed to find alternatives) but you also make IVF illegal. Pro-life, my ass.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Actually, it's a valid one. You're saying that pro-life people are nuts, and that would make you an anti-life person. I have to go to the gym. Enjoy your attack on little ones.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH What's amazing is, when you call someone a "crazy pro-lifer". It's probably one of the biggest fallacious arguments. Wait, TUN????? TUN???? Seems like your brain was aborted. What is SoLA? Southern Los Angeles? And about what research are you speaking? How does it make IVF illegal? Explain that one. Logic just left the building.
SoLA is the Sanctity of Life Act, which was a federal act, pushed forward by Ron Paul that defines life as beginning at conception and worthy of protection as an individual. Thus banning you to do anything with a zygote, embryo or fetus other than conceive it by natural means (which includes rape, but excludes IVF) and carry it. You call yourselves pro-life. Believe me, I'm reluctant to call you that. Pro-absolutists or pro-control would be my choice to call you.
In IVF a number of embryo's are created (eggs are harvested and fertilized) to be implanted in the womb. However, because of the low chance of success of the first attempt succeeding, a bunch of embryo's are created. Many of these will be destroyed afterwards or be used for research. Yet these embryo's do have the potential to be humans beings. So your absolutism on human life and Ron Paul's SoLA would ban IVF.
You make a lot of insults and do a good job at making up arguments I supposedly use but very little arguments or counter-arguments are coming from your side.
@ValtronW You really do not get it. You did not listen at all. He advocates for the right of the small PERSON who's being killed. What is the difference between the mother who nurtures her unborn baby, and the thoughtless woman who destroys hers? She had a right to her body up to the moment she let the sperm in. She has to take personal responsibility for her actions. Freedom is the Prize. RESPONSIBILITY is the price.
@fanadfilms Oh please. Do you consider a seed a plant? An egg a chicken? A fetus cannot feel a damn thing. It has no self awareness. It cannot comprehend what is happening to it, nor feel. Versus it's mom who CAN. What if she cannot afford to pay for herself? Well now she's forced to pay for an unwanted baby. Great. Oh, and don't even bring up adoption.Our foster care system sucks.
"She had a right to her body up to the moment she let the sperm in"
@ValtronW First, the rape is a lifeboat scenario and not germane to the over all debate. It would be best to terminate with chemical abortion at the beginning.
And you are wrong about a fetus not feeling being a valid argument, is that the hallmark of being human? My friend has such a high threshold for pain that he seems to feel not pain. I guess he's not human. You have a personal responsibility when you get pregnant. Abortion is not responsible. It also cheapens what it is to be human.
@fanadfilms Are you fucking kidding me? Rape happens every single day. NOTHING will change that, unfortunately. Get your head out of the clouds!
We can discuss philosophy and morals all day long, but here's what it boils down to: by bringing an unwanted child into the wold, you are affecting everyone involved in the pregnancy. The mother's life could be at risk because, YES, woman DO die die giving birth. It happens. You are making a shitty situation worse than it needs to be.
@fanadfilms There is no alternative. Yes, we should educate our teens on safe sex. You can wait til marriage. But what if a couple doesn't want a baby? Should they never be allowed to have sex? Contraception is not 100% accurate. What if a woman get's raped on the streets? Should she be forced to carry a rapist's baby? What if every unwanted child went to foster care? It would overflow. You know what happens to kids after they turn 18? They have to be on their own. Yay, homelessness!
@fanadfilms As someone with an adopted brother, I cannot endorse our adoption system (based off of what he had to go through).
You people do not seem to understand that you are making a really shitty situation worse by getting rid of the option to abort. For EVERYONE involved.
@ValtronW He's not even saying that. He's saying the unborn have a right to THEIR body. And I'm a Libertarian, member of the party, delegate to conventions. Don't tell me what a Libertarian is.
@fanadfilms That is the biggest bunch of crap I've ever heard in my life. A fetus has no concept of its existence. It lives a parasitical existence to another human life. With out it's mother, it would die. It is NOT an independent being.
@ValtronW And that is your marker for being human? Ironically, could a born baby live without it's mother's care? It would die. It is not (an) independent being.
@fanadfilms Not necessarily. A baby could be taken directly from it's mother after they cut the umbilical cord and be breast fed by another woman. It would still live. A human being is a fully developed being with thoughts and emotions, all of which a fetus lacks.
And, legally speaking, you don't even exist until your born.
Ron Pauls foreign polocies rule....his ideas about the interior are crazy and wont work....If they had been implemented somewhere in the eighties...maybe....
all you care about isyou prtected from lawyers and the suits that they bring...you are ok with fathers and mothers dying but make a big deal out of zygotes...lifeless bodies....I have four children and do not believe in abortion for any reason but rape...but I also have the right to my body...you and your christian followers can have your beliefs....I give you that....just leave me and my family alone...we are better than you as we dont shove our beliefs down any one elses throats.
@pwner34 You are illogical. And your rant make no sense. You have a right to your body up to and including the moment you allow the sperm inside. If you get pregnant, you are now RESPONSIBLE to that new life.
I am pro choice. I want NOBODY politician or otherwise to tell someone else what they can or can't do with their body. I understand the value of life as well. I was in the Marines for four years and did a combat tour in Iraq. My question is: If Congressman Paul is elected will he try and make abortion illegal or will he leave it up to the states? If it is left up to the states, what happens when a woman is raped and impregnated and does not want the baby to be born and tries to get an abortion?
@fanadfilms Well that is not really an answer to my question. After doing my research since posting that comment, I have found that in a situation like that Ron Paul (from what I understood) would support someones right to make their own decisions.
@jnmaxwell117 Ron has published the fact that this is a State and personal decision, but that no doctor should ever be involved in performing an abortion. Listen to what the man said. He also acknowledges the idea of using the Morning After Pill or the Abortion Pill.
It's POTENTIALITY to be a person. An embryo is not a person, it has the POTENTIAL to be a person. That's a huge difference and among the reasons why I consider you people who argue absolute protection from conception either misguided or evil.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH And someone elevated you to the status of a god (I use the term euphemistically; I'm an atheist)? You deny the fact that, all things being right, the embryo will come to term as a human? Is it not human life? Does it have no rights? Is it because you're bigger? After birth, the mother has no responsibility? Why not before? PERSONAL responsibility. Don't have vaginal penetration if you're not ready for the consequences. It's not about rights to her body.
If you are going to make up random positions I supposedly take, don't bother me any further. I'm on this comment section for a reasonable discussion.
Where did I claim that all things being right embryo's don't become human beings? I clearly expressed my thoughts on POTENTIALITY. No it's not a human, however it has the potential to be a human. But if you claim that potentiality leads to a status of absolute protectiveness, that has some strange consequences.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH So, you can't logically defend, so like a little boy, you run away with your ball. And reasonable is not even close to what you do. And the argument is, it is human life. And there is a point where the embryo can live outside the womb with normal care. Is THAT not human? Don't try to skirt issues. Don't run away like an intellectual coward. You want to decide at what point we should say this is a human person. You want to abort? Do it at the beginning with a pill.
It is human life is the easiest of arguments to break down. Every cell of your body can be called "human life". Cancer is human life.
An embryo can live outside a womb? Yea in a petri-dish I suppose, but you seem to be under the impression that it will develop. Do you even know the difference between an embryo and fetus?
Now you want to allow abortion with a pill? Isn't that in contradiction with the Sanctity of Life Act and your statement about life from conception?
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Again, you use fallacious arguments to mask the fact that you don't care about the rights of the unborn. I meant to use the word fetus. I'm getting ready to go to the gym and mistyped. The point: one moment before birth, you would still kill it? When do we decide it is deserving of personhood?
Even Ron says there's no way to actually police that, since you could take an overdose of birth control pills and terminate it.
Anyway, I'm off to the gym. Have fun killing people. :-)
@fanadfilms "The point: one moment before birth, you would still kill it?"
Why would I kill anyone one moment before birth? You have no clue what my position on abortion is (other then that I find your absolutism ridiculous) so you just make one up. STOP MAKING UP POSITIONS I SUPPOSEDLY TAKE. A fetus is undoubtedly more protection-worthy than an embryo, in any stage. It's potentiality is a lot further advanced.
Ron Paul is, but you've never heard of the Sanctity of Life Act (which is by all means absolutism) which he pushed forward, so you may want to take a better look at the person who's position you are defending. You know, so you actually know his position to begin with?
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH I have heard of the bill, but I focus on bills that deal with depravation of civil and financial rights, as well as military funding. And since I believe that the abortion debate should only be at the State level, I don't deal with it at the federal level. I think the SLA would be challenged in the Courts and would not be upheld, even if it were passed. As for RP, he's still the best candidate overall. If he does not make it to the general, Gary Johnson is the man.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Have you read the SLA? It's not what you think. What it does is take the definition of life out of the equation at the federal level. It invalidates Roe. It places the responsibility completely on the States to decide. It makes federal funding of abortions illegal (which it should be). If a State decides stem cell research on fertilized eggs is legal, it's legal. IVF is legal if the State says it is. It enforces FEDERALISM, not centralism.
On top of training your body, spend some time training your head as well. If you don't know how IVF works, you don't know what SoLA is, you keep making up things I supposedly said and accusing me of killing people etc, yet you are the one who is clearly clueless about the consequences of SoLA for women.
I'm not even delving into rape and danger for a woman's life, we're talking about IVF, a tool to help people get pregnant and you support legislation that bans it on absolutism.
"you could take an overdose of birth control pills and terminate it."
At the risk of severly injuring yourself when there are other ways? I'm not even talking of abortion, I'm talking about IVF embryo's and stem cells and the consequences of SoLA.
I hope you never find yourself in danger during a pregnancy, raped or in want of a child when you can't have one by natural means surrounded by people who believe in absolute protection of embryo's from conception.
Spare embryo's which are created in IVF have the potential to be humans. So, on that grounds, are you going to make IVF illegal? Embryo's for research, including some pluripotent stem cell lines that already exist still have the potential to become humans if implanted. Would you stop all this research, even though much of it will be used to find alternatives?
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Illogical since even Ron Paul does not oppose chemical abortion, which is the status of these zygotes. Again, this is rendered moot by the previous argument.
Suppose we one day have the technology to transform a somatic cell to pluripotency (which is among the so-called alternatives in the future that you people claim exist for embryonic stem cell research). That means that somatic cells under certain conditions have the potential of forming human beings. Are you going to give somativ cells the same protection?
These 3 scenario's are just a few of the consequences of your absolute protectiveness. That's my beef.
@fanadfilms Hmm, the well being of a tiny collection of cells, or a self-aware, thought-processing being who is completely capable of feeling emotional and physical pain? Oh, and let's not forget her family and friends who will also be affected by this situation. You're willing to ruin all of their lives for the sake of a seed? A seed who cannot feel pain or contemplate what is happening to it? A seed who, once it grows into a REAL person, will be forced to live a life of misery?
==: Ron Paul believes that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion. Instead, it is up to the individual states to prohibit abortion
People, listen to what he says. If we based the legality of abortion on the example he gives, then we should abolish all procedures in which mistakes are made. There go all your organ transplants, blood transfusions, classes and speech that may have errors. None of this makes any sense.
This is a compelling advertisement for RP's position (a very difficult issue for any politician). Libertarians still scratch their heads though -- should government (federal or state) get between a mother/fetus and their doctor? I do not know the answer.
Ron Paul speaks with forked tongue. He says do away with the Feds-yet is paid handsomely with free health benefits and retirement by them. He says he prizes individual choices and freedom - YET he wants to ban abortion to boost sales on coat hangers and detergents.
if elected president, he intends to only receive a presidential salary of 39,000 dollars/yr--the average american income--and will donate the rest of the money towards reducing the federal deficit.
what Ron Paul is right about what he said about protecting life .is this realy america where we decide if one child should die just beaucse it was late being born. how selfish we are to think well lets save one child beause of this and throw the other child in a bucket? I AM ASHAMED TO BE AN AMERICAN HOW CAN WE SIT BY AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN TO BABY WHO DID NOT A THING TO ITS MOTHER BUT BEING BORN it is time to remove the sheep skin over our eyes and see the deavation of abortion
Presidential republican nomination dates can be found on.
2012presidentialelectionnews dot to the com. Under 2012 Primary schedule!
Register as a republican so you can vote for him, do it before your states primary date. Do it asap so you're ready, and I will say again. You most likely have to be registered Republican so you can vote in your state's primaries for Dr. Paul.
Ron Paul gave his unwavering support for Reagan's "Voodoo Economics"
(a.k.a. Anarchistic Capitalism), the objective being the demise of the Lower & Middle Classes, Education & 40 yrs of progressive Social Programs.
"Anarchistic Capitalism": Defined:as:
1)The deregulation of ALL business & unregulated globalization, ultimately resulting in the demise of domestic infrastructure to decimated the Lower & Middle Classes. 2) Ensure an Oligarchy runs the government & ALL wealth
In order for Dr.Paul to win, HE NEEDS THE PRIMARY. That's the toughest part.
IF YOU WANT TO VOTE IN PRIMARY YOU HAVE TO BE REGISTERED REPUBLICAN! If you don't switch parties in time, (3 months ahead in some states) YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!!
Switch in time democrats and independents! Republicans:GET TO THE PRIMARIES!! ALL OF YOU!!! YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO NOW DO IT!!
Please help spread this message, and also thumb it up when U C these.
Chick won't vote for you Ron because of your pro-life stance
edwabr123 6 days ago
Go Ron Paul. I love this man and I'm only 15 years old.
PrestonStegerVids 1 week ago
Ron Paul on Abortion...For his love for life I believe this will kill his chance at the President's run. God Bless this man for his stand. KC
BrightLight57 1 week ago 5
I dont believe in abortion, but if the states allow it then so be it, if you dont like it move to a different state, Im Pro-Life, but if a woman wants to have to deal with that in her head for the rest of her life who am i to say no?
12macsaw 2 weeks ago
Never was and never should be an issue of a woman's right to choose. Murder is not a legal choice, and abortion is murder.
KKME771277 3 weeks ago
And I do count a fetus as a part of a womans body, since a fetus is not self aware and unconcious. Like others here have stated, a fetus is no more of a life than a tumour.
The limit I think should be drawn is when the fetus has grown to a size where it is possible for the baby to survive and grow outside the mothers body.
mrolof91 4 weeks ago
@mrolof91 would you then ok killing the child after birth still attached to the umbilical cord? murder is abhorrible. no matter how you try to justify it.
answerslowly 3 weeks ago
Been reading through the debate here, just got a question for you all. Rape victims sometimes get pregnant. Would you want to be the doctor or a nurse telling that person they are by law forced to give birth? Wouldn't that lead to an increase in underground, non-safe abortion clinics?
Of course I think life is precious, but when the goverment tells people what to do and not to do with their own bodies, it rarely works out fine.
mrolof91 4 weeks ago
@mrolof91 what a poor excuse for an argument. life has still been created. who is to say what good could come from that little life. p.s. the government is now mandating that insurance providers, medical providers, and employers offer sterilization, abortificents, and contraceptives with no clause exempting those who would conscientiously refuse. sickening, a complete an utter abuse of religious and civil liberties.
answerslowly 3 weeks ago
As far as men having a say in this... I say they know and feel just as much as women do. Especially the ones who still want their child. If you cant handle the responsibility then give it to someone who can. That is so much more rewarding to a person than killing a human... no matter what size.
linzylu2003 1 month ago
This little human, little fetus has a heartbeat not to long after conception. What would you think if your mother, the one who was breathing life into your tiny body, decided or was thinking about aborting you, just so she didn't have to put up with all of the responsibilities? You would have not had what you have now. Pretty sad to think about, huh?
linzylu2003 1 month ago
I have not went back to read all of the posts that were put on here, but I have an argument. This fetus is not a creature. It is a human with HUMAN DNA. It has the same rights as we all do. The fetus may be a "clump" of cells... but hey so are you. People have to be responsible when it comes to sex. You have to be aware and ready of what the outcome may be. If the outcome is not what you expected, then please give someone who cant have a child a chance to be a parent.
linzylu2003 1 month ago
REAL talk by Ron Paul! Life IS precious!
elementcs13 1 month ago
So we'd rather have abused and neglected children on food stamps than abortion...
wonderful.
XoXoSakuraKissXoXo 1 month ago
@XoXoSakuraKissXoXo Rather have that than murder people? Heck yes. A horrible life is better than murder don't you think?
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
Not everyone is able or handle a child to term. Take that into consideration. What about those kids who are alive that are abused and not wanted?
FrostyPuddle 1 month ago
@FrostyPuddle Good point. Obviously murdering them is a good way of protecting them from child abuse...
oh wait... isn't murder a form of child abuse?
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
@DavidUmstattd
Nice use of diction. Murder and child abuse are two different things. Don't distort the two. If you're going to argue please do so in an intelligent, assertive manner.
FrostyPuddle 1 month ago
As a child developing in the womb is still part of you and not independent yet, it wouldn't be killing life. until it can function, although highly dependent, on its own, it is the child-bearer's choice whether to keep it.
Once it is born, it is considered murder. when it is growing, it is crudely yet accurate to say it is murder just as much as removing a tumor is murder.
SuperTuberX 1 month ago
@SuperTuberX You obviously know nothing about pregnancy. If the child has its own DNA code how can it be part of your body? And what if its a male child? Are you saying that part of a woman's body is male? that's not only ridiculous its also...well... yeah its just ridiculous.
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
@DavidUmstattd You obviously know nothing about arguing respectfully.
If the child is developing and inside its mother, it is still part of her.
yes, if its male its still part of her, because its not a human yet. when it is, she will give birth.
seeing as the fetus is attached and inside the woman, its still technically her body. if she got shot in the head, the baby would die. why? cause the baby isnt a baby yet.
I think there should be a cap though. Maybe no later than 3 months.
SuperTuberX 1 month ago
@SuperTuberX Yes!
ourmoons 1 month ago
Privileged doctor. Start asking him to provide funding for the children, and for the parents to provide a stable nurturing environment and maybe you will see less of these bullshit adds.
haaaaaaaaaand 1 month ago
@haaaaaaaaaand At what point should the person's own responsibility kick in for pregnancy? Never? We're all dependent on each other in one way or another, but the whole system collapses if the majority takes irresponsible behavior as a way of life. We've got to look at these life issues at some point and say "The minority can' no longer support the majority; they must start to take responsibility. It can be learned."
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
You want women to give birth to children they don't want? Are you going to be the one taking care of the baby?
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons You DO know that babies don't get here from the stork, I assume? Well, then, you must know also that if ppl want sex, they should themselves be responsible for taking care of the children. That's how ppl with a good conscience have worked it out for millenia. When did it become someone else's fault that two ppl had sex and got pg? Wanted? You want sex, you pay for it yourself...or don't want sex till you're ready to pay for it. How's that for a plan?
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@finishstrongdoc yeah, if you want sex you pay for it yourself. exactly. which should be YOUR OWN fucking choice how you deal with it. only people with a good conscience dont have abortions? many great, smart, empowered, women have had abortions. Sincec when did it become someone elses fault that two people had sex and got pregnant? It's not anyone else fault, it's THEIR fault. So it should be THEIR choice of what they plan to do with the baby.
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons I see u don't understand where personal responsibility comes in to the equation. I said it was no one else's fault that the two made a baby when they weren't ready to support it. "Not ready/ NO SEX", not "not ready/HAVE SEX."
The "wanted" part of the equation? SOMEBODY will WANT the baby, when it was conceived by UNready,UNwilling, careless (NOT"empowered", or"smart", or"great") men&women. The ADOPTIVE parents are powered,smart,great ppl.
CALL THINGS WHAT THEY ARE;NOT what they AREN'T
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@finishstrongdoc you are seriously so fucking stupid its not even worth arguing with you.
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons " I have never met a man so stupid that I couldn't learn something from him." ~Galileo Gallilei~
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@finishstrongdoc I'm not saying everyone who's pregnant should get an abortion. I support children, families, and pregnancy. I also support CHOICE. it's not YOUR choice it's THEIRS! you should be able to do what you want with your body
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons What I do with my body is an extension of me; my property, my money is mine. But my govt has a right to use it for legit reasons, but only that part which I choose to give. For non-legit reasons, my govt has no right to me or my money or property. The child in the womb has a right to all I have upon my death if I choose to give it. The child may or may not want it, but I have no right to make that choice moot by killing it. The child should have equal rights, not fewer.
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@ourmoons Do you support my choice to kill you?
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
@DavidUmstattd uh yeah you can do whatever you want go ahead, your body your choice
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons and the baby's body? the baby's choice? you choose to have sex, you are then part of giving life and that child says LET ME LIVE! as you or anyone else would.
answerslowly 3 weeks ago
@answerslowly the baby can't make a fucking choice it's a fetus its brain isn't developed enough to grasp the concept of choice how could it possibly make a choice
ourmoons 3 weeks ago
@ourmoons You were a fetus once, you dork. If you want to be a murderer, that's fine, just keep it to yourself cause no one else is buying your delusion.
ITTutorCanada 3 weeks ago 4
@ITTutorCanada I know I was a fetus? What's your point?
ourmoons 2 weeks ago
@ourmoons How is a creature with a different DNA code from yours part of your own body? What if the child is male? Are you saying part of your body is male? That's sick.
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
@DavidUmstattd the baby is attached to MY body, so yeah..if it's the babies male i guess a part of my body would be male, due to the fact i have a male baby inside me. A creature with a different DNA is a part of me because it is attached to me, it lives inside me
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons Not ready to support a baby? NO SEX, not "not ready/HAVE SEX";that's not "great,smart, empowered", it's FAIL.
Great smart successful ppl wait 2 have sex & are ready to accept RESPONSIBILITY...even for OTHER'S mistakes of ONLY wanting SEX, but NOT WANTING responsibility.
CALL THINGS WHAT THEY ARE., NOT WHAT THEY AREN'T
Great smart empowered Americans are willing to PAY for adoption, not abortion; so farONE BILLION dollars has been given to Banned Parenthood, by STUPID gov't.
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@alexandraveum only 13 states have complete bans on 24+ week abortions. Most u can still abort if the child has deformities.
shunsthebest 1 month ago
A fetus is dependent, therefore you CAN abort it? Am I getting the argument correctly?
If dependence means we can kill people, then we're all dead.
"It's just a clump of cells."
If being a clump of cells means we can kill people, then we're all dead.
"But it's not a person."
If being a non-person means we can kill people, then we're all dead.
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
Way to stand up for a woman's LIBERTY, you fucking hypocrite old man! Sorry if a woman's LIFE isn't as important as the parasite who lives in her! How dare you?! If you need a kidney to live, are you going to steal something else from my body?
Taintedramen 1 month ago
@Taintedramen We have recently discovered that the fetus transfers its own stem cells to the mother, which then provide therapies and even cures for some illnesses she may have. These stem cells stay with the mother for her lifetime, whether the fetus is carried to term or not. Far from being a parasite, then, the fetus is capable of BENEVOLENCE toward the mother. She may have a dozen abortions, but the BENEFITS of those feta stay with her, regardless that she ended their lives....fool.
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@finishstrongdoc Okay, one, who is "we"? Did you discover it? When did you have time to come out of your laboratory to play on Youtube, Dr? Anywho, these are possibilities that for one, are completely untested, and two, if 100% true, shouldn't it still be the mother's right to chose to control her own body? And if the benefit is there whether the woman carries the baby to term or not, isn't that just more motivation for abortion?
Taintedramen 1 month ago
@Taintedramen I'm not a Dr; I got that nickname in 'Nam; they called us "baby killers" & when I got out in '73 they started killing babies in the country I was working to defend, so I decide to keep on fighting for the Constitutional rights of Americans, as my Military Oath is never rescinded.
The source : "Do Chocolate Lovers Have Sweeter Babies?: The Surprising Science of Pregnancy" by Jena Pinctott
Dependence? We're all dependent.What gives me the right to ignore that & the killing innocents?
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@finishstrongdoc Think about it, she could have the kid in her for like a couple months, then abort it before it stretches out her body, then do it over again. I doubt she'd ever be sick. And guess what, if she wants to, that's her choice. Because whether or not your unsubstantiated, but possible, claim is true, that baby still can't live unless she provides the womb. And since it's her body, it's her choice to provide that womb. Women deserve reproductive autonomy from males.
Taintedramen 1 month ago
@Taintedramen Sure, you could do that, but the risk for injury goes up with every abortion:perforated uterus, bowel, etc. But, yes, you could have a dozen or more, get the benefits, and such, but at some point one would start to fell a dulling effect of the conscience, or completely lose any contact with a normal conscience. After all, childbirth still is the norm, though that might change, too. Sure, you could do that. I wouldn't recommend it, thjough would you? You're not that foolish,are you?
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
@finishstrongdoc Okay, one, dude, I was being sarcastic because I hold no emotional tie to a fictional fetus. Two, I am assuming that if you were someone who fought in Vietnam in 1973, you are a man. Therefore, your logic does not compute with someone who could actually face the issue of abortion. You essentially seem to think you are entitled to an opinion on something that will never effect your peace of mind. True to a Ron Paul advocate, unempathetic, sexist colors show.
Taintedramen 1 month ago
@Taintedramen If the life of a small clump of cells can be legally terminated because it's a small clump of cells,then all clumped cells are terminally condemned by law. Roe was the beginning of the ultimate enslavement of mankind to laws that are not laws.
Unless and until Roe is terminated, no one anywhere is free from condemnation and enslavement to the State. Roe is the abolition of man, the law to end all laws.
Some wars are fought to set men free from oppression.
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
Comment removed
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
@Taintedramen
So your saying that because someone is a man therefore they're opinions about abortion are wrong and you're calling HIM sexist? You're the sexist for thinking that because someone is a man therefore they are unintelligent when it comes to this issue. You should be ashamed of yourself.
DavidUmstattd 1 month ago
mgm
pondwaterscum 1 month ago
@Alexandraveum you are so niave to call him a liar he is by far one of the best GOP candidates that is running. he has predicted everything that would happen economically in our country for the past 30 years and no one will listen to him. He is anything but a liar and ill stand by that.
pondwaterscum 1 month ago
@pondwaterscum I like Ron Paul, and I'm rooting for him, HOWEVER, I was pointing out the fact that an aborted fetus is NOT able to live and breathe during the abortion for obvious reasons, such as the fact that you can't have abortions afer a certain period of time, and if a late abortion is preformed, I bellieve there will have been a lot of sedatives in the picture. Besides, during a REGULAR abortion, it is not a living breathing baby, it is in fact a buch of cells, NOT a living baby.
Alexandraveum 1 month ago
@pondwaterscum If you feel to challenge that, you may pop by any med school and ask :)
Alexandraveum 1 month ago
@alexandraveum the aborted fetus could've been 20-25 weeks therefore technically could've been born alive, but the parents chose to abort
shunsthebest 1 month ago
@shunsthebest No, at that point, they will not have been allowed to chose an abortion. SOME children will survive birth at week 24 (my friends baby being one of them) however, it is not usual, and the child will have to spend weeks, even months in the hospital before having a chance to live. I do not bellieve the US permits such a late abortion.
Alexandraveum 1 month ago
"Who are we to decide that we pick and throw one away and pick up and struggle to save the other ones?" WE are the women who choose to have an abortion, and what they want to do with their body is their choice, not everyone elses.
ourmoons 1 month ago
@ourmoons Then next time be more careful before you decide to create life, you bloody woman!!!
LordofBarons 1 month ago
@LordofBarons yeah, it's only the mom, not half the genetic sequence of a man! Way to show how much of a sexist idiot you are.
Taintedramen 1 month ago
@ourmoons I have a choice to take away your life, too. I could end it so quickly. But then I would be tried and go to jail. Why should you be exempt from the law and choose to take life away from society? In no stage should you have a so called "right" to end life. Whether you want to believe it or not, that is a human being, your own child for God's sake. Mother's weep all around the world for their dead children. You take it for granted.
Mattlarrivee 1 month ago
@Mattlarrivee the child is dependent on the life of the mother. If you needed a kidney and your bloodtype matched mine, would I be a criminal for saying you can't have my body to live?!
Taintedramen 1 month ago
@Taintedramen Comparing a child to an organ is completely wrong, An organ supports life, it is not life. I see your point that you made. Even after birth the child is still dependent. What difference does it make that the child is in your womb?
Mattlarrivee 1 month ago
@ourmoons YEAH! Not some old MAN who never had to make that choice!
Taintedramen 1 month ago
I just lost so much respect for Ron Paul.
I agree with him on the subject on abortion, it is disgusting, HOWEVER - as disgusting as it is, an abortion would NEVER EVER happen so late that the child would be breathing and crying.
Why is he lying like that? Having abortions is disgusting enough as it is- he doesn't need to make up stories about it!
Alexandraveum 1 month ago
@Alexandraveum google "Jill Stanek"
finishstrongdoc 1 month ago
Isn't it amazing that no one will argue the facts of Roe.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
Here is the rhetorical tool Paul uses: saying that late-term abortions are wrong (which I agree with) to make the point that all abortion is wrong (which I disagree with).
He is supposedly a libertarian, but if he was a true libertarian he would value a woman's choice whether to keep a fetus. He supports individual choice and civil liberties, but NOT a woman's choice over whether she wants something to grow inside her body for 9 months.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@mgm8822 You hit the nail on the head.
ValtronW 1 month ago
@mgm8822 Are you a Libertarian? I am. Just got my 2012 party card today. Been getting them for decades. I am in accord with Ron Paul. Pregnancy is not a disease. If I were a doctor, I would not do this. I would not, however, have a problem with the Morning After Pill or any chemical abortion. Ron Paul is of the same mind.
It's not about a right to the women's body, but the rights of the little humans inside. It's about personal responsibility, a mainstay of Libertarianism.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms I would consider myself a libertarian-socialist, but fundamentally yes,I would consider myself a libertarian.
The choice/life issue about balancing the rights of the fetus vs. the rights of the mother. In my book, and in the book of most rational humans, a grown adult that has been walking around the earth for decades has rights to life and bodily integrity that supersede those of a fetus.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@mgm8822 You can't be a Libertarian/socialist. The two philosophies are musically exclusive and incompatible. It's an oxymoron. A grown adult has the responsibility to not engage in risky behavior and then punish the unborn for their own lack of consideration and discernment. Do you have the right to murder a baby that is born premature? What is the difference between that baby and the one still inside? Are they different simply because one is still physically attached?
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms One can be a libertarian socialist. Basically, I believe that the state has a role to play in providing certain services to its citizens, but should not infringe constitutional civil liberties. It's a long explanation though, and I'd rather not get into it here because it's not relevant to the topic.
You said that libertarians support personal responsibility. I somewhat disagree.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@mgm8822 Hate to tell you this, but if you came to a convention of REAL Libertarians, those of us who are active in Libertarian politics, in the PARTY, we'd laugh at you. You're a Chomsky-follower. As for your last statement? Bollocks.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms I can back my beliefs up with facts and logic. Sorry if I violated your libertarian identity by claiming that I am a libertarian socialist. It still stands that I consider myself a libertarian on civil liberties issues. If that does not accord with what you believe, that's too bad.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@mgm8822 I'm sorry, that's not Libertarianism. It's socialism. And it's unworkable. Logic fails completely.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms I was trying to have a respectful debate with you over a serious issue, but you decided to go the ad hominem route rather than address my points. I'll take that as an admission of defeat.
Take care.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@mgm8822 I did not level an ad hominem. You actually did that. As for a respectful debate, where's that?
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms I think that libertarianism supports the direct opposite: the right to be irresponsible, as long as that irresponsibility does not harm anyone else.
We obviously disagree about who is harmed by abortion or carrying a fetus to term.
But I would like to add that I think drug use of any kind is generally irresponsible, but I still think that people should have right to decide for themselves whether to take drugs and which drugs to take.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@fanadfilms One more thing: you are viewing abortion as an all or nothing occurrence. I am viewing it as a balancing of the competing rights of several actors: the mother, father, and fetus.
I think that clearly an 8-month old fetus is a baby. I also think that a 1 month old fetus is NOT a baby. It is the gray area in between that I think we have to dry to navigate.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@fanadfilms That is not to say that a fetus does not have rights, but on the balance, the rights of the mother win out.
This should especially be so since males (which are usually a necessary component of the child-production process) are not always reliable partners and providers. To force a woman to have a child punishes her by forcing her to carry and give birth to the child, and then punishes her again to raise the child even if daddy runs for the hills.
mgm8822 1 month ago
@mgm8822 THANK YOU GOD, YOU HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!! IT'S CALLED LOGIC, NOT EMOTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Taintedramen 1 month ago
Anyone want to argue Roe? It was a horrible and stupid decision. Read it. The Court should have never granted certiorari.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
You crazy pro-lifers who argue absolute protection of all life from conception onward do realize the percussion, don't you? If you make it illegal to terminate embryo's (as Ron Paul would have it with his SoLA), you not only get rid of a tun of research (including that needed to find alternatives) but you also make IVF illegal. Pro-life, my ass.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH So, you're anti-Life?
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
"So, you're anti-Life?"
This is a sad atack and I won't bother refuting it.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Actually, it's a valid one. You're saying that pro-life people are nuts, and that would make you an anti-life person. I have to go to the gym. Enjoy your attack on little ones.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH What's amazing is, when you call someone a "crazy pro-lifer". It's probably one of the biggest fallacious arguments. Wait, TUN????? TUN???? Seems like your brain was aborted. What is SoLA? Southern Los Angeles? And about what research are you speaking? How does it make IVF illegal? Explain that one. Logic just left the building.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
SoLA is the Sanctity of Life Act, which was a federal act, pushed forward by Ron Paul that defines life as beginning at conception and worthy of protection as an individual. Thus banning you to do anything with a zygote, embryo or fetus other than conceive it by natural means (which includes rape, but excludes IVF) and carry it. You call yourselves pro-life. Believe me, I'm reluctant to call you that. Pro-absolutists or pro-control would be my choice to call you.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
In IVF a number of embryo's are created (eggs are harvested and fertilized) to be implanted in the womb. However, because of the low chance of success of the first attempt succeeding, a bunch of embryo's are created. Many of these will be destroyed afterwards or be used for research. Yet these embryo's do have the potential to be humans beings. So your absolutism on human life and Ron Paul's SoLA would ban IVF.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
You make a lot of insults and do a good job at making up arguments I supposedly use but very little arguments or counter-arguments are coming from your side.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
Claims he's a Libertarian, yet wants to abolish a woman's right to her body.
Uh.....huh.....
ValtronW 1 month ago
@ValtronW You really do not get it. You did not listen at all. He advocates for the right of the small PERSON who's being killed. What is the difference between the mother who nurtures her unborn baby, and the thoughtless woman who destroys hers? She had a right to her body up to the moment she let the sperm in. She has to take personal responsibility for her actions. Freedom is the Prize. RESPONSIBILITY is the price.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms Oh please. Do you consider a seed a plant? An egg a chicken? A fetus cannot feel a damn thing. It has no self awareness. It cannot comprehend what is happening to it, nor feel. Versus it's mom who CAN. What if she cannot afford to pay for herself? Well now she's forced to pay for an unwanted baby. Great. Oh, and don't even bring up adoption.Our foster care system sucks.
"She had a right to her body up to the moment she let the sperm in"
Yeah, unless she was raped.
ValtronW 1 month ago
@ValtronW First, the rape is a lifeboat scenario and not germane to the over all debate. It would be best to terminate with chemical abortion at the beginning.
And you are wrong about a fetus not feeling being a valid argument, is that the hallmark of being human? My friend has such a high threshold for pain that he seems to feel not pain. I guess he's not human. You have a personal responsibility when you get pregnant. Abortion is not responsible. It also cheapens what it is to be human.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms Are you fucking kidding me? Rape happens every single day. NOTHING will change that, unfortunately. Get your head out of the clouds!
We can discuss philosophy and morals all day long, but here's what it boils down to: by bringing an unwanted child into the wold, you are affecting everyone involved in the pregnancy. The mother's life could be at risk because, YES, woman DO die die giving birth. It happens. You are making a shitty situation worse than it needs to be.
ValtronW 1 month ago
@fanadfilms There is no alternative. Yes, we should educate our teens on safe sex. You can wait til marriage. But what if a couple doesn't want a baby? Should they never be allowed to have sex? Contraception is not 100% accurate. What if a woman get's raped on the streets? Should she be forced to carry a rapist's baby? What if every unwanted child went to foster care? It would overflow. You know what happens to kids after they turn 18? They have to be on their own. Yay, homelessness!
ValtronW 1 month ago
@fanadfilms As someone with an adopted brother, I cannot endorse our adoption system (based off of what he had to go through).
You people do not seem to understand that you are making a really shitty situation worse by getting rid of the option to abort. For EVERYONE involved.
Priorities, please.
ValtronW 1 month ago
@ValtronW He's not even saying that. He's saying the unborn have a right to THEIR body. And I'm a Libertarian, member of the party, delegate to conventions. Don't tell me what a Libertarian is.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms That is the biggest bunch of crap I've ever heard in my life. A fetus has no concept of its existence. It lives a parasitical existence to another human life. With out it's mother, it would die. It is NOT an independent being.
ValtronW 1 month ago
@ValtronW And that is your marker for being human? Ironically, could a born baby live without it's mother's care? It would die. It is not (an) independent being.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms Not necessarily. A baby could be taken directly from it's mother after they cut the umbilical cord and be breast fed by another woman. It would still live. A human being is a fully developed being with thoughts and emotions, all of which a fetus lacks.
And, legally speaking, you don't even exist until your born.
ValtronW 1 month ago
@ValtronW *you're
ValtronW 1 month ago
@ValtronW I think you're just trying to justify your position with a completely fallacious argument.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
Ron Paul!
BleeadingHand 1 month ago
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I was for abortion until I saw this video hahaha
PokemansAtTheDisco 1 month ago
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PokemansAtTheDisco 1 month ago
I simply can't help but like this guy even more and more.
TheAnimeStop 2 months ago
God bless you Ron Paul
KenSiefert 2 months ago
Ron Pauls foreign polocies rule....his ideas about the interior are crazy and wont work....If they had been implemented somewhere in the eighties...maybe....
pwner34 2 months ago
all you care about isyou prtected from lawyers and the suits that they bring...you are ok with fathers and mothers dying but make a big deal out of zygotes...lifeless bodies....I have four children and do not believe in abortion for any reason but rape...but I also have the right to my body...you and your christian followers can have your beliefs....I give you that....just leave me and my family alone...we are better than you as we dont shove our beliefs down any one elses throats.
pwner34 2 months ago
@pwner34 You are illogical. And your rant make no sense. You have a right to your body up to and including the moment you allow the sperm inside. If you get pregnant, you are now RESPONSIBLE to that new life.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
I am pro choice. I want NOBODY politician or otherwise to tell someone else what they can or can't do with their body. I understand the value of life as well. I was in the Marines for four years and did a combat tour in Iraq. My question is: If Congressman Paul is elected will he try and make abortion illegal or will he leave it up to the states? If it is left up to the states, what happens when a woman is raped and impregnated and does not want the baby to be born and tries to get an abortion?
jnmaxwell117 2 months ago
or will they have to go to a state where it is legal?
jnmaxwell117 2 months ago
@jnmaxwell117 What about that little one inside you? Does that PERSON get no say as to ITS life?
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms Well that is not really an answer to my question. After doing my research since posting that comment, I have found that in a situation like that Ron Paul (from what I understood) would support someones right to make their own decisions.
jnmaxwell117 1 month ago
@jnmaxwell117 Ron has published the fact that this is a State and personal decision, but that no doctor should ever be involved in performing an abortion. Listen to what the man said. He also acknowledges the idea of using the Morning After Pill or the Abortion Pill.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
It's POTENTIALITY to be a person. An embryo is not a person, it has the POTENTIAL to be a person. That's a huge difference and among the reasons why I consider you people who argue absolute protection from conception either misguided or evil.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH And someone elevated you to the status of a god (I use the term euphemistically; I'm an atheist)? You deny the fact that, all things being right, the embryo will come to term as a human? Is it not human life? Does it have no rights? Is it because you're bigger? After birth, the mother has no responsibility? Why not before? PERSONAL responsibility. Don't have vaginal penetration if you're not ready for the consequences. It's not about rights to her body.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
If you are going to make up random positions I supposedly take, don't bother me any further. I'm on this comment section for a reasonable discussion.
Where did I claim that all things being right embryo's don't become human beings? I clearly expressed my thoughts on POTENTIALITY. No it's not a human, however it has the potential to be a human. But if you claim that potentiality leads to a status of absolute protectiveness, that has some strange consequences.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH So, you can't logically defend, so like a little boy, you run away with your ball. And reasonable is not even close to what you do. And the argument is, it is human life. And there is a point where the embryo can live outside the womb with normal care. Is THAT not human? Don't try to skirt issues. Don't run away like an intellectual coward. You want to decide at what point we should say this is a human person. You want to abort? Do it at the beginning with a pill.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
It is human life is the easiest of arguments to break down. Every cell of your body can be called "human life". Cancer is human life.
An embryo can live outside a womb? Yea in a petri-dish I suppose, but you seem to be under the impression that it will develop. Do you even know the difference between an embryo and fetus?
Now you want to allow abortion with a pill? Isn't that in contradiction with the Sanctity of Life Act and your statement about life from conception?
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Again, you use fallacious arguments to mask the fact that you don't care about the rights of the unborn. I meant to use the word fetus. I'm getting ready to go to the gym and mistyped. The point: one moment before birth, you would still kill it? When do we decide it is deserving of personhood?
Even Ron says there's no way to actually police that, since you could take an overdose of birth control pills and terminate it.
Anyway, I'm off to the gym. Have fun killing people. :-)
fanadfilms 1 month ago
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@fanadfilms "The point: one moment before birth, you would still kill it?"
Why would I kill anyone one moment before birth? You have no clue what my position on abortion is (other then that I find your absolutism ridiculous) so you just make one up. STOP MAKING UP POSITIONS I SUPPOSEDLY TAKE. A fetus is undoubtedly more protection-worthy than an embryo, in any stage. It's potentiality is a lot further advanced.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
"Again, you use fallacious arguments to mask the fact that you don't care about the rights of the unborn."
"Have fun killing people"
Your head is just something you put your hat on, isn't it? Bear with me for 2 seconds. Read very slowly if you must:
You don't know my position on abortion other than my disagreement with your absolutism.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Obviously, you lack comprehension, because I'm not an absolutist. I'll leave you to do your research on that.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
Ron Paul is, but you've never heard of the Sanctity of Life Act (which is by all means absolutism) which he pushed forward, so you may want to take a better look at the person who's position you are defending. You know, so you actually know his position to begin with?
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH I have heard of the bill, but I focus on bills that deal with depravation of civil and financial rights, as well as military funding. And since I believe that the abortion debate should only be at the State level, I don't deal with it at the federal level. I think the SLA would be challenged in the Courts and would not be upheld, even if it were passed. As for RP, he's still the best candidate overall. If he does not make it to the general, Gary Johnson is the man.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Have you read the SLA? It's not what you think. What it does is take the definition of life out of the equation at the federal level. It invalidates Roe. It places the responsibility completely on the States to decide. It makes federal funding of abortions illegal (which it should be). If a State decides stem cell research on fertilized eggs is legal, it's legal. IVF is legal if the State says it is. It enforces FEDERALISM, not centralism.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH It takes abortion out of the purview of the federal Courts.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
On top of training your body, spend some time training your head as well. If you don't know how IVF works, you don't know what SoLA is, you keep making up things I supposedly said and accusing me of killing people etc, yet you are the one who is clearly clueless about the consequences of SoLA for women.
I'm not even delving into rape and danger for a woman's life, we're talking about IVF, a tool to help people get pregnant and you support legislation that bans it on absolutism.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
"you could take an overdose of birth control pills and terminate it."
At the risk of severly injuring yourself when there are other ways? I'm not even talking of abortion, I'm talking about IVF embryo's and stem cells and the consequences of SoLA.
I hope you never find yourself in danger during a pregnancy, raped or in want of a child when you can't have one by natural means surrounded by people who believe in absolute protection of embryo's from conception.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH And don't try to assuage your guilt for killing a little human by saying it doesn't feel anything.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
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@fanadfilms
"And don't try to assuage your guilt for killing a little human by saying it doesn't feel anything."
WHERE DID I SAY THAT? Please stop making up things I supposedly say or positions I supposedly take.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
Spare embryo's which are created in IVF have the potential to be humans. So, on that grounds, are you going to make IVF illegal? Embryo's for research, including some pluripotent stem cell lines that already exist still have the potential to become humans if implanted. Would you stop all this research, even though much of it will be used to find alternatives?
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH Illogical since even Ron Paul does not oppose chemical abortion, which is the status of these zygotes. Again, this is rendered moot by the previous argument.
fanadfilms 1 month ago
@fanadfilms
Suppose we one day have the technology to transform a somatic cell to pluripotency (which is among the so-called alternatives in the future that you people claim exist for embryonic stem cell research). That means that somatic cells under certain conditions have the potential of forming human beings. Are you going to give somativ cells the same protection?
These 3 scenario's are just a few of the consequences of your absolute protectiveness. That's my beef.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago
@fanadfilms Hmm, the well being of a tiny collection of cells, or a self-aware, thought-processing being who is completely capable of feeling emotional and physical pain? Oh, and let's not forget her family and friends who will also be affected by this situation. You're willing to ruin all of their lives for the sake of a seed? A seed who cannot feel pain or contemplate what is happening to it? A seed who, once it grows into a REAL person, will be forced to live a life of misery?
ValtronW 1 month ago
@fanadfilms I can assure our little fetus friend won't cry in pain or object or contemplate its death.
ValtronW 1 month ago
ron paul has my vote....but alas i found an issue we disagree on.
link2swim06 2 months ago
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IMPORTANT!!!! If the GOP wants to win, supporting Ron Paul as the nominee is the answer.
DONATE NOW TO DEC 16th MONEY BOMB COPY/ PASTE THUMB UP PUSH!!! donate at his official website ronpaul2012 . com
M1k4e 2 months ago
...deliver US from evil.
believr77 2 months ago
"Dr. Ron Paul, more than 4,00 babies delivered..."
Ron Paul, we now need you to deliver this country before we are aborted
and tossed into a bucket.
indianabass 2 months ago
==: Ron Paul believes that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion. Instead, it is up to the individual states to prohibit abortion
AutomatedForexRobots 2 months ago
People, listen to what he says. If we based the legality of abortion on the example he gives, then we should abolish all procedures in which mistakes are made. There go all your organ transplants, blood transfusions, classes and speech that may have errors. None of this makes any sense.
barkingspider403 2 months ago
Our only chance for a better world!!! Vote for him in 2012!!!
Namaste!
sanmig68 2 months ago
This is a compelling advertisement for RP's position (a very difficult issue for any politician). Libertarians still scratch their heads though -- should government (federal or state) get between a mother/fetus and their doctor? I do not know the answer.
prayfortruejustice 2 months ago
Bow
Sillycuntie 2 months ago
*save
ilovecats091 3 months ago in playlist Liked
so winter haven you want people to kill an unborn child just so you can money on coat hangers and soap?
ilovecats091 3 months ago in playlist Liked
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Ron Paul speaks with forked tongue. He says do away with the Feds-yet is paid handsomely with free health benefits and retirement by them. He says he prizes individual choices and freedom - YET he wants to ban abortion to boost sales on coat hangers and detergents.
WinterHaven 3 months ago
@WinterHaven
if elected president, he intends to only receive a presidential salary of 39,000 dollars/yr--the average american income--and will donate the rest of the money towards reducing the federal deficit.
what other politician would do that?
acarlisl 3 months ago 2
@acarlisl LIke he's donating his income now? liar liar pants on fire.
WinterHaven 3 months ago
what Ron Paul is right about what he said about protecting life .is this realy america where we decide if one child should die just beaucse it was late being born. how selfish we are to think well lets save one child beause of this and throw the other child in a bucket? I AM ASHAMED TO BE AN AMERICAN HOW CAN WE SIT BY AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN TO BABY WHO DID NOT A THING TO ITS MOTHER BUT BEING BORN it is time to remove the sheep skin over our eyes and see the deavation of abortion
ilovecats091 3 months ago
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Outlawing abortion isn't about the mother being bad. It's about the baby being good.
eastariel 3 months ago
Vote for Ron Paul this election and be a part of history!!
GhostRecon756 3 months ago
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Ron Paul=rational political freedom in life.
Anyone else= Worse than yesterday.
Presidential republican nomination dates can be found on.
2012presidentialelectionnews dot to the com. Under 2012 Primary schedule!
Register as a republican so you can vote for him, do it before your states primary date. Do it asap so you're ready, and I will say again. You most likely have to be registered Republican so you can vote in your state's primaries for Dr. Paul.
Vote this up so others know!
SPAM THIS!
SixFootTallMidget 3 months ago
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watch?v=UxPoURzProE
Ron Paul gave his unwavering support for Reagan's "Voodoo Economics"
(a.k.a. Anarchistic Capitalism), the objective being the demise of the Lower & Middle Classes, Education & 40 yrs of progressive Social Programs.
"Anarchistic Capitalism": Defined:as:
1)The deregulation of ALL business & unregulated globalization, ultimately resulting in the demise of domestic infrastructure to decimated the Lower & Middle Classes. 2) Ensure an Oligarchy runs the government & ALL wealth
yourtreat2 3 months ago
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WINNING STRATEGY:
In order for Dr.Paul to win, HE NEEDS THE PRIMARY. That's the toughest part.
IF YOU WANT TO VOTE IN PRIMARY YOU HAVE TO BE REGISTERED REPUBLICAN! If you don't switch parties in time, (3 months ahead in some states) YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!!
Switch in time democrats and independents! Republicans:GET TO THE PRIMARIES!! ALL OF YOU!!! YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO NOW DO IT!!
Please help spread this message, and also thumb it up when U C these.
Thanks 2 all those helping
Bobsagot90 3 months ago
Ron Paul -Battling the forces of evil since 1935.
TheKopsfanclub 3 months ago 12
@TheKopsfanclub
Gives us a break, drama queen
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 month ago