In 3.5 e, definitions of good, chaos, law, evil and neutral (both axis) are not solidly based on any ethical branch (deontology, consequentialism, virtue ethics, etc.). Now intuitively speaking, the definition of those extremes (good, chaos, law, chaos, neutral (both axis) ) seem to be big picture driven and meant to be subjective to the DM. Yet, you mentioned in this video that Alignment (3.5 e) is based on the sum of all deeds done. Would you be able to prove that affirmation?
@Zozim57 I make no claim that my position is directly supported by any close reading of the rules as written. I take the position because it suits my purposes as a DM, a player, and as a student of the game.
That said, I can make a bit of a case based on the fact that the game tells the Dungeon Master to monitor the deeds of the player characters, and that it is within the DM's rights to declare that the character's actions warrant a shift in alignment.
Just found your video! Thank you for your thoughts!
Though I personally don't like "Alignment" as it functions in D&D, I do agree on its value to some players as a "descriptive footnote" to help them imagine and role play their PC.
The problem is that D&D makes it a game mechanic with the purpose of "restricting". It's not just a "role playing descriptor". It specifically permits/denies a character access to specific classes, items, spell effects and even planes of existence.
...that players can establish accomplish all of the things you describe with their characters without making Alignment anything more than a few notes on the back of their character sheet. I'm just saying, you don't need "Alignment" as a game system...you just need "Alignment" as an optional form of "character inspiration". That's all! :-)
**Applause** thanks for puting yourself out there on this... rough subject but gotta talk about it... don;t nesecarily have to agree... but cant play if a "social contract" isn't settled on... and every discussion helps put perspective on the issues people have.
A story of High-Fantasy Moral Ambiguity - A "romanticly-jaded" Paladin and his "rescued" masochistic Temple-Prostitute companion fall in love, "balancing" thier "infernal desires", while maintaining devotion to the faith, and uncovering an underground slave-trade fronted by the city-state's corrupt aristocracy.
A public assault on the gentry-houses would be sure to spin a tense political arena into open civil-war, as The Hordes gather on the borderlands, waiting like vultures for the prey.
The stand-out item that you state is the part that says ~Allignment determines how the 'Cosmology' interacts with you based on where you 'fit-in' within the 'morality scheme' of the world.~
The issue about "killing is evil" is directly related to my preference for "Houner & Fealty" and "Faith & Conviction" being more important to a Feudal Social Structure than "Law-Chaos/Good-Evil"
emphisze "Status & Station", change the "morality emphisis" to "Taijitu and the Five Elements", for East Flavor
Another point on Paladins and Clerics however, I do not support the "faithless Paladin" or the "churchless cleric" as per generic D&D ... by definition a Holy Paladin must be a devotee OF something they have a FAITH IN to FIGHT FOR and an ORDER/INFLUENCE to be ORDAINED/INDUCTED by... a Cleric must also be a devotee and have a FAITH, PURPOSE, PIETY and ORDER/INFLUENCE ... and especially in a cosmology with Active Powers they /may/ even need to be CHOSEN to receive the DIVINE GIFTS...
on the other hand... Devoted Warriors and Alcolyte Adepts are prety common in the ranks of a church, and may even hop around between churches and faiths on whim, or just give lip service but no attendance, and any "gifted powers" are likely coincidental anyway... adepts, sorcerers, and "hidden bloodline" powers can somtimes apear to be bestowed with "divine gifts" mistakenly as they frequently appear cosmetically similar.
Moral ambiguity is VERY possible within the alignment rules structure given in all editions of D&D... it is just often misunderstood and taken as a 'hard line' rather than a 'potential fate' ...
A local aristocrat regularly accepts "compensations" and "contracts" from an "evil cult" of brigands serving a well known and respected chaotic neutral deity of darkness, retribution, death, change, protection and community... thus the "cabal of assassins" is protected from harsh punishments by receiving the best arbiters and easily overlooked "evidence"... in turn the brigands have healthy hard-working families that do not go hungry or fall into a population of plague bearers...
A paladin TRYING to be Lawful Good and failing, but he is doing such a great job in the service of the faith he is given concessions for the "greater good" though the "truly enlightened" of the highest ranks try hard to help him, they somberly know it is likely a doomed saint they harbor in their fold.
@thespiritcoyote yes on the substance of a paladin trying and failing, but I would imagine the church would not explain things that way. First of all, they might not be aware of an alignment shift. But if they did find out, they'd probably say that failing is unacceptable for a paladin. It's not a death sentence, but among hardline LG churches, a failure of alignment could even be grounds for excommunication.
@Joshbuckler I disagree, the higher priesthood and sacred inner orders would likely be well aware of the status of such a 'proven champion' to the cause... and the needs of mortal politics out weigh the needs of the soul in the mortal realms even for the high-priesthood....
on the established ambiguity of morality in the alignment system, I may have misunderstood... I do not see alignment as unusually restrictive , or "constrictive to a box" at all... the rules do not read that way.
@thespiritcoyote I can see your scenario happening, and it's certainly plausible in a LG organization. The alignment itself doesn't preclude working with people who have other alignments. Perhaps it's an issue of intelligence, ego, or politics. I think you're correct though, in that it's not the alignment itself that dictates only working with the same alignment.
A point of clarification, I am not saying that "mortal concerns" have weight in "final judgment" but the NOW has weight over the EVENTUAL in the mind of the "mortal coil" ... also the "Divine Powers" are capable of (and often depicted as exercising) judgments beyond the "current alignment" of a petitioner, and can "absolve karmic taint and cleanse the sinful" AFTER death just as easy as during life (possibly easier) disregarding "alignment value at death" for "service record".
I do not accept "Lawful Stupid" (but I will accept "Lawful Mistaken") as the interpretation of Lawful Good, I also likewise do not agree with the "Chaotic Unemotional" (though "Chaotic Jaded" is acceptable) in the realm of Chaotic Evil... Likes and Dislikes are quirks that are not a part of the Alignment System... A Lawful Good Personality /may/ still have unusual traits that are not lawful or moral... these are often called "inner demons"... A Paladin adrenalin-junkie, rushes in unwisely...
I make this point, the published respone from the people that write the rules has consistantly said that the hard "black/white" or the rough "grey/darker-grey" IS a matter of setting-specific-fluff... it is unfair to be hard-lined on the judjment without telling the players that you will be, and it IS dificult to express tha cosmology & consaquence of published settings and established timelines without the subjective grey... play it how you like it.
neither of these are guaranteed to forego the karmic balance in the long term (final judgment) but may stave off received "taint" over the short term... and if a particular person is well known to "break moral code" then the church may close it's doors and reject further atonement, or "take the money and run" knowing it is a irretrievably " lost soul" ....
This description points to the interpretations that Alignment (and the detection of it) is merely a divination of where a person is going in their path to The Celestial Wheel... if the person does not WANT to go their then they would try to make choices differently based on the moral guidance of the divine interpreters of a particular faith... or perhaps pay homage to ATTEMPT to sever or protect themselves from further corruption...
@thespiritcoyote I think your interpretation (alignment as destination on the Great Wheel) is very much compatible with my thoughts so far, and I will probably adopt it.
Thanks for the vid response. It's Wood W-W-A-D with each of those letters being said individually.
From carefully looking at it, it looks like a clumsily made, extremely basic role-playing tool which would be fine if it didn't in some ways inhibit more advanced rp techniques. Also, the ability to know someone's alignment can take so many plots away from a game without giving any real advantage back.
@woodwwad Oh, saying you have to do this, isn't what I was talking about. Yes, I agree, you shouldn't tell the player they can or cannot act a certain way & you are right in the way you talk about changing alignment.
Black & White gaming is very basic which is certainly not what I'm looking for & I think that alignment does support B&W gaming as it was created for that style of play. I think it ends up hamstringing more advanced gaming. I like the complexity of the real world that you mention
@woodwwad the idea of those looking at the record & not your heart is an interesting way to look at it. I've seen that before, I don't hold that position but think it can work fine. Sure there is some possible level of ambiguity but not nearly enough. The paladin that detects evil & then starts killing is utterly terrible play. I think in D&D good alignment is actually fine with killing evil; however, I agree with you that killing someone is evil. Great point about the doing good acts.
@woodwwad Quick point on what I'm writing. I'll have something aimed at creating a highly useful tool in the alignment space.
You have nailed me, I do not like making characters quickly. I tend to spend massive amounts of time carefully putting every aspect of the personality together. Talking about morality in game is very fun, I greatly agree with that. I vastly enjoy IC religious discussions. I think many gods in a world where they existed would be highly jealous, they need worship.
@woodwwad I've received well over a 100 video responses since starting my channel & this was certainly been one of the better ones. I see you have some knowledge regarding world religion, very nice. One of my degrees is in Philosophy (Religious Studies). I hope to here from you on some of the other topics I toss out regarding the RPG I'm creating.
@woodwwad I'm almost afraid to ask what are your advanced RP techniques. Anyways, I think saying that alignment is restrictive to those techniques is like saying hair colour is restrictive on hair style. They describe different things about hair.
I'm also not sold on your position that knowing alignment is some kind of spoiler. I'm still saying that an evil alignment is not a death sentence. Knowing an NPC's alignment is a different thing from knowing what their specific intentions are.
In 3.5 e, definitions of good, chaos, law, evil and neutral (both axis) are not solidly based on any ethical branch (deontology, consequentialism, virtue ethics, etc.). Now intuitively speaking, the definition of those extremes (good, chaos, law, chaos, neutral (both axis) ) seem to be big picture driven and meant to be subjective to the DM. Yet, you mentioned in this video that Alignment (3.5 e) is based on the sum of all deeds done. Would you be able to prove that affirmation?
Zozim57 2 months ago
@Zozim57 I make no claim that my position is directly supported by any close reading of the rules as written. I take the position because it suits my purposes as a DM, a player, and as a student of the game.
That said, I can make a bit of a case based on the fact that the game tells the Dungeon Master to monitor the deeds of the player characters, and that it is within the DM's rights to declare that the character's actions warrant a shift in alignment.
Joshbuckler 2 months ago
Just found your video! Thank you for your thoughts!
Though I personally don't like "Alignment" as it functions in D&D, I do agree on its value to some players as a "descriptive footnote" to help them imagine and role play their PC.
The problem is that D&D makes it a game mechanic with the purpose of "restricting". It's not just a "role playing descriptor". It specifically permits/denies a character access to specific classes, items, spell effects and even planes of existence.
I feel...
Webhead123 2 months ago
...that players can establish accomplish all of the things you describe with their characters without making Alignment anything more than a few notes on the back of their character sheet. I'm just saying, you don't need "Alignment" as a game system...you just need "Alignment" as an optional form of "character inspiration". That's all! :-)
Webhead123 2 months ago
Good to see you again!
:)
Reid
ReidBaerPoetry 2 months ago
@ReidBaerPoetry Hi Reid, likewise good to see you on youtube again too!
Joshbuckler 2 months ago
**Applause** thanks for puting yourself out there on this... rough subject but gotta talk about it... don;t nesecarily have to agree... but cant play if a "social contract" isn't settled on... and every discussion helps put perspective on the issues people have.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
Even if I didn't totally agree with you, I'd still think this is an awesome video.
boltorange 3 months ago
A story of High-Fantasy Moral Ambiguity - A "romanticly-jaded" Paladin and his "rescued" masochistic Temple-Prostitute companion fall in love, "balancing" thier "infernal desires", while maintaining devotion to the faith, and uncovering an underground slave-trade fronted by the city-state's corrupt aristocracy.
A public assault on the gentry-houses would be sure to spin a tense political arena into open civil-war, as The Hordes gather on the borderlands, waiting like vultures for the prey.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
The stand-out item that you state is the part that says ~Allignment determines how the 'Cosmology' interacts with you based on where you 'fit-in' within the 'morality scheme' of the world.~
The issue about "killing is evil" is directly related to my preference for "Houner & Fealty" and "Faith & Conviction" being more important to a Feudal Social Structure than "Law-Chaos/Good-Evil"
emphisze "Status & Station", change the "morality emphisis" to "Taijitu and the Five Elements", for East Flavor
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
Another point on Paladins and Clerics however, I do not support the "faithless Paladin" or the "churchless cleric" as per generic D&D ... by definition a Holy Paladin must be a devotee OF something they have a FAITH IN to FIGHT FOR and an ORDER/INFLUENCE to be ORDAINED/INDUCTED by... a Cleric must also be a devotee and have a FAITH, PURPOSE, PIETY and ORDER/INFLUENCE ... and especially in a cosmology with Active Powers they /may/ even need to be CHOSEN to receive the DIVINE GIFTS...
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
@thespiritcoyote
on the other hand... Devoted Warriors and Alcolyte Adepts are prety common in the ranks of a church, and may even hop around between churches and faiths on whim, or just give lip service but no attendance, and any "gifted powers" are likely coincidental anyway... adepts, sorcerers, and "hidden bloodline" powers can somtimes apear to be bestowed with "divine gifts" mistakenly as they frequently appear cosmetically similar.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
Moral ambiguity is VERY possible within the alignment rules structure given in all editions of D&D... it is just often misunderstood and taken as a 'hard line' rather than a 'potential fate' ...
@Joshbuckler well done!
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
A local aristocrat regularly accepts "compensations" and "contracts" from an "evil cult" of brigands serving a well known and respected chaotic neutral deity of darkness, retribution, death, change, protection and community... thus the "cabal of assassins" is protected from harsh punishments by receiving the best arbiters and easily overlooked "evidence"... in turn the brigands have healthy hard-working families that do not go hungry or fall into a population of plague bearers...
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
A paladin TRYING to be Lawful Good and failing, but he is doing such a great job in the service of the faith he is given concessions for the "greater good" though the "truly enlightened" of the highest ranks try hard to help him, they somberly know it is likely a doomed saint they harbor in their fold.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
@thespiritcoyote yes on the substance of a paladin trying and failing, but I would imagine the church would not explain things that way. First of all, they might not be aware of an alignment shift. But if they did find out, they'd probably say that failing is unacceptable for a paladin. It's not a death sentence, but among hardline LG churches, a failure of alignment could even be grounds for excommunication.
Joshbuckler 3 months ago
@Joshbuckler I disagree, the higher priesthood and sacred inner orders would likely be well aware of the status of such a 'proven champion' to the cause... and the needs of mortal politics out weigh the needs of the soul in the mortal realms even for the high-priesthood....
on the established ambiguity of morality in the alignment system, I may have misunderstood... I do not see alignment as unusually restrictive , or "constrictive to a box" at all... the rules do not read that way.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
@thespiritcoyote I can see your scenario happening, and it's certainly plausible in a LG organization. The alignment itself doesn't preclude working with people who have other alignments. Perhaps it's an issue of intelligence, ego, or politics. I think you're correct though, in that it's not the alignment itself that dictates only working with the same alignment.
Joshbuckler 3 months ago
@thespiritcoyote
A point of clarification, I am not saying that "mortal concerns" have weight in "final judgment" but the NOW has weight over the EVENTUAL in the mind of the "mortal coil" ... also the "Divine Powers" are capable of (and often depicted as exercising) judgments beyond the "current alignment" of a petitioner, and can "absolve karmic taint and cleanse the sinful" AFTER death just as easy as during life (possibly easier) disregarding "alignment value at death" for "service record".
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
I do not accept "Lawful Stupid" (but I will accept "Lawful Mistaken") as the interpretation of Lawful Good, I also likewise do not agree with the "Chaotic Unemotional" (though "Chaotic Jaded" is acceptable) in the realm of Chaotic Evil... Likes and Dislikes are quirks that are not a part of the Alignment System... A Lawful Good Personality /may/ still have unusual traits that are not lawful or moral... these are often called "inner demons"... A Paladin adrenalin-junkie, rushes in unwisely...
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
I make this point, the published respone from the people that write the rules has consistantly said that the hard "black/white" or the rough "grey/darker-grey" IS a matter of setting-specific-fluff... it is unfair to be hard-lined on the judjment without telling the players that you will be, and it IS dificult to express tha cosmology & consaquence of published settings and established timelines without the subjective grey... play it how you like it.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
neither of these are guaranteed to forego the karmic balance in the long term (final judgment) but may stave off received "taint" over the short term... and if a particular person is well known to "break moral code" then the church may close it's doors and reject further atonement, or "take the money and run" knowing it is a irretrievably " lost soul" ....
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
This description points to the interpretations that Alignment (and the detection of it) is merely a divination of where a person is going in their path to The Celestial Wheel... if the person does not WANT to go their then they would try to make choices differently based on the moral guidance of the divine interpreters of a particular faith... or perhaps pay homage to ATTEMPT to sever or protect themselves from further corruption...
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
@thespiritcoyote I think your interpretation (alignment as destination on the Great Wheel) is very much compatible with my thoughts so far, and I will probably adopt it.
Joshbuckler 3 months ago
Thanks for the vid response. It's Wood W-W-A-D with each of those letters being said individually.
From carefully looking at it, it looks like a clumsily made, extremely basic role-playing tool which would be fine if it didn't in some ways inhibit more advanced rp techniques. Also, the ability to know someone's alignment can take so many plots away from a game without giving any real advantage back.
rated
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad Oh, saying you have to do this, isn't what I was talking about. Yes, I agree, you shouldn't tell the player they can or cannot act a certain way & you are right in the way you talk about changing alignment.
Black & White gaming is very basic which is certainly not what I'm looking for & I think that alignment does support B&W gaming as it was created for that style of play. I think it ends up hamstringing more advanced gaming. I like the complexity of the real world that you mention
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad the idea of those looking at the record & not your heart is an interesting way to look at it. I've seen that before, I don't hold that position but think it can work fine. Sure there is some possible level of ambiguity but not nearly enough. The paladin that detects evil & then starts killing is utterly terrible play. I think in D&D good alignment is actually fine with killing evil; however, I agree with you that killing someone is evil. Great point about the doing good acts.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad Quick point on what I'm writing. I'll have something aimed at creating a highly useful tool in the alignment space.
You have nailed me, I do not like making characters quickly. I tend to spend massive amounts of time carefully putting every aspect of the personality together. Talking about morality in game is very fun, I greatly agree with that. I vastly enjoy IC religious discussions. I think many gods in a world where they existed would be highly jealous, they need worship.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad I've received well over a 100 video responses since starting my channel & this was certainly been one of the better ones. I see you have some knowledge regarding world religion, very nice. One of my degrees is in Philosophy (Religious Studies). I hope to here from you on some of the other topics I toss out regarding the RPG I'm creating.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad I'm almost afraid to ask what are your advanced RP techniques. Anyways, I think saying that alignment is restrictive to those techniques is like saying hair colour is restrictive on hair style. They describe different things about hair.
I'm also not sold on your position that knowing alignment is some kind of spoiler. I'm still saying that an evil alignment is not a death sentence. Knowing an NPC's alignment is a different thing from knowing what their specific intentions are.
Joshbuckler 3 months ago
@Joshbuckler I've put several videos out about advanced rp techniques.
I would agree with you an evil alignment shouldn't be but as you mentioned in your video some players, do take it like that which can cause problems.
woodwwad 3 months ago