Makes a good point in that the community is afraid to search for fun outside the old school violence. I fell in love with Heavy Rain because I felt what it was like to be a father while having fun. That said, there is no harm in finding fun games which don't rely on the same mechanics.
The real problem with art games at the moment is that they think they have to sacrifice every notion of fun in order to get their message across. Why can't we have a serious art game that is still fun to play? I mean, braid was kind of fun. Well, the demo I played of it was anyways. I don't hate story. I don't hate good writing. But an art game can also have bad writing. Every day the same dream practically hits me on the head with a hammer with it's message.
Pop quiz anthony. If you really love those dumb action games, why do you keep calling the fans of them 12 year olds? Look, you can talk about this stuff without insulting the intelligence of other crowds, you know. And calling me a coward doesn't help your arguments. Yes, you should have some mainstream representation, alright? The trade off will be that you stop insulting the fuck out of us.
a big problem is that most game creators and players are very childish and lack true individuality when it comes to what they PERSONALLY find emotionally and intellectually stimulating in a story. instead they just suck up to what is currently popular with the 'art crowd'; things like symbolism and minimalism, and basically decide whether a game is a good work of art or not based on the inclusion of certain arbitrary elements. it's limiting not just to games but to the very idea of expression.
@5:28 What about manga? It ideally same medium and methods but to a wider array than American comic books.
Video games are interactive entertainment with challenges and objectives. From there you can do anything to it, add a story to it, make it educational, make it question your moral judgement, or even no story at all.
95% of games are mindless entertainment, which could be also said for movies, like you said; a hundred bazillion thousand awful movies a dozen to two dozen good movies.
in the words of jim sterling: fun isn't enough, it's paramount. an unfun game is pointless, they're an entertainment medium, and if they don't entertain then its a BAD game
@cuttinggale63 it doesnt mean that games can't be thought provoking but that shouldn't be a focus. the whole artsy hard hitting stuff may have a place in gaming, but if the game they're featured in aren't any fun then it's sort of pointless as a game, games are for fun.
like that indie game where you walk to the left and your character gets older, i think it's called passing. that isnt fun at all, it's not engaging, its pretentious
@nayte23 you're talking about passage by jason roher. it is not pretentious, because it claims to be a game about life, and it is. no more, no less. furthermore, while i was playing it, it engaged me. I enjoyed the five minutes i spent playing the game. I had fun exploring an interactive metaphor of the human life. and besides, when has trying to add something besides mindless shooty mayhem been completely detrimental to anything? terminator 2 was intelligent, and it was a blast.
@cuttinggale63 I'm not saying that it has to be mindless and shooty, it doesn't, it just has to be a little bit more complex than walking to the right, actually ive pretty much described mario.... never mind =P
PROBLEM: Video games are about learning a small handful of moves and repeating them over and over.You have a "30 seconds of fun" as the quote goes that's repeated with very little variation, just increasing difficulty/complexity. I love character and narrative driven books/movies as much as the next guy, but how do you maintain the fun simplistic/repetitive gameplay people love without just adding the story as a separate overlaying layer, like in current games? The two don't really mix...
Got to admit, I'm in an odd spot on this debate. While I'm all for artsy and serious games, there has to be fun to it, if I'm not enjoying a game, then I'm just not gonna play it. Taking a game and making people think through it is a good thing I think, as long as it's fun and keeps people playing. As far as games as art goes, I wouldn't suggest Bioshock, but Okami and Shadow of the Colossus.
Oh, also, I never found Bioshock to be any good. It was a thoroughly shit experience from start to finish. I saw every plot twist coming.
If I were to give a better "Games are Art" game, I would say Heavy Rain, simply because it wasn't about violence, but about the story instead (How good that story was is subjective).
If a game isn't fun, is it even a game anymore? I would call it more of an "interactive experience" than a game if it wasn't designed to be fun. I'd also like to try one out sometime, but unfortunately, none exist as of Dec 5, 2011.
But the problem with certain games that approach this issue is that they end up sacrificing their videogaminess, you know? It´s important to note that a good art game and a very artistic game are different things, and that you can´t really expect videogames to evolve in the same fashion that cinema or literature have because unlike those mediums games are still restricted by the current hardware generation, and also by the critically bankrupt view that even some gamers have of the industry.
1. games like God Of War, Gears Of War, Bioshock are "fun"... different people have different tastes
2. having fun in a game is mutually exclusive to a game being "artsy"
I disagree with the premise, games SHOULD be fun... but you call gears of war "fun" and I dont like that game. You call Braid "artsy" and I do find that game to be very fun
so I guess in some sort of twisted way, I agree with your general message... but your wording is terrible
I'm fine with games being about whatever. If you want to make a video game that's intellectually stimulating and raises deep philosophical questions, then by all means do so. Just don't lose focus that these are video GAMES, where fun and entertainment should be paramount. A good example is Braid. People often praise it for being "artistic". Well, what I liked about the game was the fun platforming and interesting time control mechanics. The "artistic" aspect really did not add anything to it.
Yeah, I agree, games need to get away from guns. But, I disagree, games are meant to be fun, movies are meant to be fun, books are meant to be fun, music is meant to be fun. If you don't enjoy it why do you do it? He's getting it wrong, having games all focused on the same thing is NOT fun. It's repetitive and it gets old.
@ligerman30 you missed his point completly, he said that fun should stay and that we need more games that make you think, he's not saying all games should be like he said
@gipsyg27 On a second read of my comment, I misrepresented what I meant to say. What I disagree with him about is the statement that fun isn't enough, when fun is what matters in all forms of media. I understand his point about branching out and it isn't wrong at the heart, but, his wording makes him wrong. "Fun" is the only thing there is. For example, all genres of movies can be considered enjoyable, even horror movies. And if the movie isn't enjoyable than it's a bad movie.
@ligerman30 well that's your opinoun and i respect it, but what i think he was trying to say is that fun is good but games can be fun AND make you think at the same time not that games cant be enjoyable and smart at the same to.
Admittedly, everything I loved about Bioshock had NOTHING to do with all the killing. Everything else was fantastic, but the constant barrage of splicers...yeah, that, the moral choice, and the ending were the weakest parts of that game.
1. Famous and serious literature almost always has a violent aspect (All of the Epic poems are about slaying monsters and most of Alexandre Dumas is about revenge and swordfights)
2. People don't play Bioshock, RPGs, or Nintendo games only to murder people.
3. Only around 50% of games are macho fanatsy bullshit. There's puzzle games, mini games, casual games, Portal and besides if they have violence its more mario were its cartoony.
Yeah, body language. Its a pretty important factor of persuasive speaking. Thats like the first thing you learn in any speaking class, and should pretty much already know anyway. Stop trying to be witty by actually showing how retarded you are.
Pretentious hipster bullshit. Fuck you and fuck anyone that agrees. I just want to play games for fun. Whats with all these jerk asses that come out of nowhere that try so hard to make gaming important to the "human condition"? Isn't enjoying yourself part of the human condition?
That so many people enjoy games where the entire game revolves around shooting and killing the other coupled with the constant opiate of "achievements" is telling about the culture in which we live but games will never ever be more than what they are right now unless the base culture that breed the demand these type of games is changed.
Saying that the only games that exists are violent and macho is pretty dumb. I personally view video games as an art medium, however, there are only one game that I consider even close to art: "The Stanley Parade". I played braid, and to be honest, it was pretentious bullshit. Also, you are saying that this is the same as saying that we could only read one genre of books, but that is also not true. Can you actually say with a straight face that Europa Universalis is the same as Call of Duty?
And we have really limited fun. There are so many more things to do, fun things, that we aren't doing. In this video, at least some of the time, fun seems to translate into violence. I don't like that.
I wish we could have another shooter with a good story line. Max payne 1 has one of the best story lines of anything i have played. Revenge, a guy trying to reconnect with his dead family some how, tortured by nightmares. Corporate greed and shadowy conspiracys. Vigilanteism for the wrong reasons.
Harvest Moon, Call of Duty, Metal Gear Solid, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Chuchu Rocket, World of Warcraft, Dirt 3, Machinarium, Elder Scrolls, Minecraft, Super Smash Bros, San Andreas, Donkey Kong Country, Phoenix Wright, Gunz.
but there are also many games I do not like, 3rd person shooters is one of them, I hate replica's of other games, for example saints row.
I also have a personal hate for any film related games, the quality of rushed film title games are too much.
Most of the games I play are games that are thought-invoking, engaging, well written, fully realized games. Well, 80 percent of them...70...60. I will leave it at 50.
Wait, why I am kidding myself? I am addicted to surreal, virtual violence in video games.
Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Fallout 3, New Vegas, and Bioshock, to name a few, are all fully realized, prolific pieces of art.
I think videogames do rely too much on the tried and true "Killing stuff will sell copies" mindset, which in turn keeps the medium from evolving into something else.
Videogames are still "art" though . I'd say it's one of the most fully realised one there is, because everything in a game is pure creation. Movies have real humans, existing sets, but everything in games comes from imagination. It's just sad that said imagination is usually used for power fantasy shoot-em ups. But hey, it sells
Here is the flaw with your argument: a game is fun if and only if it involves killing people. SimCity is fun. Adventure games are fun. Puzzle games are fun. Sports games (including racing games) are fun. Bioshock is fun because of the artistic design, atmosphere, story and political subtext, not because you can kill people in different ways. In fact combat is Bioshock's weakest element. But you need some game mechanic, like combat, to keep the player engaged, otherwise its just a movie.
I agree completely. I cannot describe how much it angers me when people try to limit something, just out of fear. (Skip to 0:55) You might want to duck, by the way.
@FlammaMan Yeah well he works for a company thats a 1 trick pony. What do they make besides borderland and, thats not to my personal liking. I do feel like Heavy Rain was just a movie but, I enjoyed watching it. Not so much playing it.
Except people don't only watch football or hockey or basketball or baseball. Those that play do experience an aspect of the human condition. They use teamwork with another human being to achieve a goal. They experience anger or acceptance or sadness or confrontation with a challenge that they must overcome. Those that no longer play remember what it's like to do so. Either that or they empathize with those that do. Not all diversions from "real life" are empty of emotion.
Intense. You get so into these things, your hands just fly all over the place! x3
That's why I loved the game Fragile Dreams. It was a wonderful mixture of action and happiness and melancholy; a post-apocalyptic world thats feels so lonely when you walk through it... You're right. It wouldn't hurt to have a few more serious games thrown in to the mix. Im getting to sick of shoot-em-ups. It also helps that Im a gentle gamer to begin with.
Rune Factory Frontier and Harvest Moon for the win! :D
Very good points. Im glad I found this video, ive been thinking this same thing for years. There have been a few games I have enjoyed this generation but im sick of the same old thing
The thing with Bioshock is that at it's core, it is just a game where you inventively kill people. But BIoshock itself is a piece of art. It's about conformity and politics and science and mankind's true potential. That's what makes it such a treasured game. Games right now are at the stage where they are art its just that most of them convey it through linear shooters. But there are games like Heavy Rain and Myst that keep the entire franchise from doing this.
You keep talking about how much potential there is for games to be something more than just a fun experience, but you spend this entire rant just talking about what you think is wrong with the mainstream productions of the medium. If you're going to argue how great games can be created through the medium that don't follow those mainstream patterns then discuss how these artistic games would actually work. You talk about how it should be done but don't spend any time talking about how it could.
"Upon release, Myst was a surprise hit, with critics lauding the ability of the game to immerse players in the fictional world. The game was the best-selling PC game of all time, until The Sims exceeded its sales in 2002."
The problem with all this is that you're drawing a direct parallel between film/literature and video games. Film has a bedrock of artistic integrity because it stemmed from earlier forms of emotion-inducing narrative. Gaming's bedrock is bleeps and bloops on ancient computers. As a form of entertainment, games couldn't be farther apart from film or literature and shouldn't be compared to them. Games are interactive, not passive like film, and I wish I could keep going but I'm out of space.
@MonsterFlicks Games are interactive? News to me. I thought most modern games held your hand through story lines and didn't let you explore, instead making you walk down linear corridors or follow a specific blip point on the map with no choices throughout most of the game
@Tekko When a movie starts, it will end, and what you take from it is up to you. When a game starts, your hand-eye coordination/reflexes/whatever will play into you seeing the end. That's what I meant by interactive. Advances have made it so that games draw more and more from cinema, but don't be fooled. Modern games are prettier, more involved Mario Bros, and thus can't express the human condition in the way that film can. As games advance it's a possibility, but it's simply not an option now.
Games can be "fun" and still explore themes. You seem to think that the only "fun" games are brown and grey shooters and mindless hack and slash games. What about games like Majora's Mask which deeply explore a theme in a unique way, but at their essence are still "fun". Every single emotion and theme that you can think of either has been or can be explored in a fun game.
This guy is brilliant and correct. Gaming is a medium, just like movies and books. There's no reason why weird things that make us feel bad inside should be limited to movies and books, and gaming has to make us feel like we're having fun. There's no reason why the introduction of the ability to interact with the world suddenly mandates that it is "fun."
I was in full agreement up until about 7 minutes through. Yes, games as a medium have a lot of potential merit for poignant and deep expression of ideas, but his comment about BioShock makes it seem like somehow you can't simultaneously have that with action-driven gameplay. You can't reduce what a game is "about" to just the mechanics of the gameplay. A game has to be more than just an 'interactive' book/movie/whatever, the mechanics of that interaction need to be fun on their own as well.
He makes some good points, but I don't like the idea that "fun" always has to be associated with mindless nonsense. Nobody's saying a game has to be about violence and cussing and sex to be fun. One person's fun is different from another person's fun. Some people have fun skiing and skydiving, other people have fun playing chess and reading literature. So to call out games like Gears of War on such a broad account as "fun" is incorrect - games SHOULD be fun.
I think the real enemy here is bigotry, elitism, and lack of creativity in general, which seems like the real point he's getting at. Nobody wants to play 30 FPS games with the same exact story, same exact characters, same exact gameplay mechanics and same exact weapons, just like nobody wants to play a million puzzle games that all force you to "think" strenuously about your next move. I say just let games be games - broaden the spectrum of ideas so that it's not always the same thing.
In my opinion, there's a big difference between a "fun" game and a "good" game (still thinking of a better word for this). "Fun" is more like any Mario game, Rock Band, Just Cause 2, The Sims, SSX Tricky, and so on. "Good" is more like Mass Effect, Silent Hill, BioShock, Final Fantasy, Metroid Prime, etc. There's something to be said about games that make you bounce off the walls with laughter, and games that make bring you into an immersive world, while still being entertaining.
You keep going back to Braid - Braid wasn't great because of it's artistic expression or subdued themes. Braid was great because the gameplay and design were top notch.
In short; it was fun.
I'm sure i'm not alone when i say that i don't give a crap what the game is about- As long as it's fun. Don't pigeonhole gamers into a group that need killing or violence in their medium.
Fun drives the medium - regardless of how it's presented.
Games don't need to be art. They are allowed to be diversion and a fantasy. I like being immersed into a story where SPACE SOLDIER 45 overcomes all the odds and saves the human race by blowing aliens to smithereens.
What bothers me about the "games as art" thing is that most of the people who support it and the games that show it try to make games artistic through environments, cinematics, and even plain text, which is really just putting artistic bits of other mediums together in a game. What I want to see is people say something real about the human condition through some actual gameplay, and make that gameplay entertaining at the same time. The only examples I can think of are games that show
@Deathbagel4Minecraft I agree. I believe it was a Zero Punctuation episode where Silent Hill 2 was being reviewed and they said that the best thing it does, that no other medium could do, was oppressive atmosphere via its gameplay. That is the kind of stuff I think we need.
@bigniggurdick Games provide a sensory experience while being capable of eliciting a multitude of various emotions. How is that anything BUT art? It's the same reason we listen to music or stare at a painting on end, because it is thought provoking and inspiring. Not ALL games are equal, that's certainly true. However to say that no games are art is an insult to not only the developers, but the players who find any level of enjoyment with them.
@darksquall3402 Hi, never ever argue with someone who calls himself bigniggurdick about art. Very nice rant btw Anthony! I can only agree, we need more diversity!
@jokemasterslifer As much as I hate to agree with that other guy, I would say MSG4 is more of a movie too. A good artistic game would show art through gameplay and interactivity, which is something only a game can do and do the best. MSG4 just takes away control for most of the game, forcing you to sit through countless cutscenes which, as far as games go, is not good storytelling.
Oh, it forces you to? Even when there's a way to skip them? Look, if you're interested in the story, you watch the cutscenes (which are beautifully made), or you can skip them to get back to the gameplay. Also, if it isn't artistic, then what about the depth put into the sound, such as traveling to other countries just to get a few recordings of walking on dirt or stone?...
...The graphics as well, even though I'm not a graphics whore, you must admit they're beautiful and well done. The gameplay itself as well is very good, though the way I would describe it would make you think it's the same thing as just killing people, even though it's not all that. I do agree that MGS4 acts like a movie, but movies don't have interactivity and gameplay.
@jokemasterslifer I never said they weren't. Music: amazing. I love the theme. Graphics: absolutely stellar. But as far as delivering a story, I'd rather it be told through gameplay than through endless cutscenes. Not to mention that the gameplay itself, at times, feels more like an afterthought to the rest of it. The controls can be very stiff and awkward. And when the gameplay is interrupted every thirty min. or less for a cutscene, that detracts from telling the story through the gameplay.
Both points of this argument are just absurd, really. Games are a medium for expression, therefore, they are the product of those who created them. Final Fantasy 6 was the first game to ever make me cry and look when that was made.
Your made up statistic of 90% of games being GoW clones (sumarizing the elements you mentioned) fails to take into account puzzles, strategy, rpgs, simulation, and pretty much everything that is not a derivative of either GoW. I think it's more like 40% are pointless macho fantasies, 5 - 10% are "artistic" or "serious", and the rest of them are somewhere in between (Ever thought about relationships or the self after playing Persona 3, for example?)
I think what needs to happen is that all the people that whine about fun games should instead just buy the art games from ice pick lodge, tale of tales and other devs and turn them into AAA developers that still do art games. This way the industry will be balanced and everyone can shut up and enjoy what they enjoy.
As long as I still get my fun games, you can make as many heavy rains and passages as you want. I just won't buy or play them. And if I'm called stupid for that, fine.
I wish their were more games that actually make you think, ones that challenge you to think differently or that give you a difficult choice. I really should get back to playing Dragon Age as I found the choices in that game interesting. Mass Effect 2 also has that one choice that is, if you think about it, far more complex than you might originally think.
I have an issue with that "art" games that come out of main stream gaming have that tacked on feel. There are some games that have either the potential for or, in rarer cases, can actually make the game play what makes the game deep. I think there is a need to break from this overly indulgent game play but we don't know how yet. There aren't games that say something to people through their game play. It can happen but it won't come easily.
We need more diversity in games, but please don't be so ignorant to say that the fantastic competitive offerings of some games don't have artistic merit. That's as closed minded as saying that we should never expand out of such games (both rather close-minded views) . Art is anything that through any creative means affects someone- intellectually, emotionally, ect. If we close the definition of art into a certain area than we truly forget what makes art... art. We need both old and new.
The Rap: Games need to be more than fun (but they can still be fun).
For me, it's not an issue. So long as games are cathartic, I see no issue with deeper games. However I may have to ask how they would plan to do that. The main thought I have is an issue of loss in a pokemon like game, where you become attached to your first 'Pokemon' by the designers makeing all alternatives to replace it being at the same level it was gotten at (all wild 'pokemon' at ~lv 1 only) yet permadeath is in play.
I think you missed the point of BioShock. BioShock proved that you don't have to choose between fun and art. BioShock is rabid-mutant-slaughtering fun, while at the same time telling an intriguing, thought-provoking, touching and relevant story, with sociopolitical commentary, stunningly innovative art direction and world-building. That, plus the infamous "WYK" plot twist did something that no other medium could do: It turned the fundamental constraints of the medium into a storytelling feature.
@Abadninja Everyone loves diversity. But the starting point is what matters. It's harder for something funny/crude to be taken seriously, than for something significant to be made relatable/humourous.
That's the real reason to fear for games as a medium.
I've never heard anyone saying that games should only be serious. But, yeah, we need diversity. We need video games that aren't blatantly made for teenagers with the over the top juvenility.
@Soulsphere001 If you've never heard anyone say games should be only serious then you never heard Bogost's early works or the comments of some "game" designers (more like interactive fiction writers) on the GDCs from 2006 - 2009.
We need more people like this guy and the guy from extra credits to support the art side of gaming. Just like we need more people like Day9 to support other aspects of gaming. This is the most versatile medium the world has ever seen and we need to exploit their full potential and make gaming legit in the eyes of the general public.
Make me a game about love. If it is fun, I will play it.
Make me a game about taking your kids to school. If it is fun, I will play it.
Make me a game about growing old. If it is fun, I will play it.
Hell, make me Citizen Kane: The video game. If it is fun, I will play it.
Notice the pattern? I play games for good gameplay. Good gameplay = fun. If it also happens to be a work of art that makes me question my place in the zieltgeist, more power to it, but it's not why I'm playing it.
All media struggles with this issue. The studio system nearly killed Hollywood same with publishing houses. Currently Star Wars choked to death on its own historic value when it went back for seconds (and now thirds; I weep for my children). I'm sure Stephen King would like to stop writing the same novel. It is a curse all mediums have to deal with. It is sort of like growing pains of an entertainment medium, fighting the base human desires. Remember the internet was for porn once too.
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Coming from the guy who developing Borderlands 2 as we speak -_-
TechFiend44 2 days ago
Makes a good point in that the community is afraid to search for fun outside the old school violence. I fell in love with Heavy Rain because I felt what it was like to be a father while having fun. That said, there is no harm in finding fun games which don't rely on the same mechanics.
HyrdaRancher 1 week ago
The real problem with art games at the moment is that they think they have to sacrifice every notion of fun in order to get their message across. Why can't we have a serious art game that is still fun to play? I mean, braid was kind of fun. Well, the demo I played of it was anyways. I don't hate story. I don't hate good writing. But an art game can also have bad writing. Every day the same dream practically hits me on the head with a hammer with it's message.
Racecarlock 1 week ago
Pop quiz anthony. If you really love those dumb action games, why do you keep calling the fans of them 12 year olds? Look, you can talk about this stuff without insulting the intelligence of other crowds, you know. And calling me a coward doesn't help your arguments. Yes, you should have some mainstream representation, alright? The trade off will be that you stop insulting the fuck out of us.
Racecarlock 1 week ago
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a big problem is that most game creators and players are very childish and lack true individuality when it comes to what they PERSONALLY find emotionally and intellectually stimulating in a story. instead they just suck up to what is currently popular with the 'art crowd'; things like symbolism and minimalism, and basically decide whether a game is a good work of art or not based on the inclusion of certain arbitrary elements. it's limiting not just to games but to the very idea of expression.
RaymondoPerson 2 weeks ago
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RaymondoPerson 2 weeks ago
all of his complaints apply to 95% of all media produced today
diarrheajuggalo 1 month ago 4
Rafinha Bastos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chuck2k11 1 month ago
Talk more about that brain-eating-pee game!
jasanmarco3 1 month ago
You should try "The Stanley Parable" (Half Life 2 Mod).
Swissveti 1 month ago
@5:28 What about manga? It ideally same medium and methods but to a wider array than American comic books.
Video games are interactive entertainment with challenges and objectives. From there you can do anything to it, add a story to it, make it educational, make it question your moral judgement, or even no story at all.
95% of games are mindless entertainment, which could be also said for movies, like you said; a hundred bazillion thousand awful movies a dozen to two dozen good movies.
thedoctorjohnsmith1 1 month ago
in the words of jim sterling: fun isn't enough, it's paramount. an unfun game is pointless, they're an entertainment medium, and if they don't entertain then its a BAD game
nayte23 2 months ago
@nayte23 but does that mean that games should not be thought-provoking or attacking big issues, or that that in and of itself cannot be fun?
cuttinggale63 1 month ago
@cuttinggale63 it doesnt mean that games can't be thought provoking but that shouldn't be a focus. the whole artsy hard hitting stuff may have a place in gaming, but if the game they're featured in aren't any fun then it's sort of pointless as a game, games are for fun.
like that indie game where you walk to the left and your character gets older, i think it's called passing. that isnt fun at all, it's not engaging, its pretentious
nayte23 1 month ago
@nayte23 you're talking about passage by jason roher. it is not pretentious, because it claims to be a game about life, and it is. no more, no less. furthermore, while i was playing it, it engaged me. I enjoyed the five minutes i spent playing the game. I had fun exploring an interactive metaphor of the human life. and besides, when has trying to add something besides mindless shooty mayhem been completely detrimental to anything? terminator 2 was intelligent, and it was a blast.
cuttinggale63 1 month ago
@cuttinggale63 I'm not saying that it has to be mindless and shooty, it doesn't, it just has to be a little bit more complex than walking to the right, actually ive pretty much described mario.... never mind =P
nayte23 1 month ago
PROBLEM: Video games are about learning a small handful of moves and repeating them over and over.You have a "30 seconds of fun" as the quote goes that's repeated with very little variation, just increasing difficulty/complexity. I love character and narrative driven books/movies as much as the next guy, but how do you maintain the fun simplistic/repetitive gameplay people love without just adding the story as a separate overlaying layer, like in current games? The two don't really mix...
32BitJunkie 2 months ago
An entire industry of chainsawing things... Oh God D: sort of like the following
/watch?v=PYQhvW-tjNM&t=21s
TheGerogero 2 months ago
1. Games
2. Not about fun
3. ...?
MCulpa 2 months ago
Got to admit, I'm in an odd spot on this debate. While I'm all for artsy and serious games, there has to be fun to it, if I'm not enjoying a game, then I'm just not gonna play it. Taking a game and making people think through it is a good thing I think, as long as it's fun and keeps people playing. As far as games as art goes, I wouldn't suggest Bioshock, but Okami and Shadow of the Colossus.
dragonsoul0 2 months ago
I used to be all for artsy video games and serious games, but if this guy makes it sound so shitty and bad. Maybe I just hate this guy. Yep.
Xomnus00 2 months ago
I miss this guy.
masterkeyify 2 months ago
Speaking of "taking you child to school" in video games, this is a primary part of gameplay in Princess Maker.
YabusameLuna 3 months ago
Oh, also, I never found Bioshock to be any good. It was a thoroughly shit experience from start to finish. I saw every plot twist coming.
If I were to give a better "Games are Art" game, I would say Heavy Rain, simply because it wasn't about violence, but about the story instead (How good that story was is subjective).
OnlySemiCoherent 3 months ago
If a game isn't fun, is it even a game anymore? I would call it more of an "interactive experience" than a game if it wasn't designed to be fun. I'd also like to try one out sometime, but unfortunately, none exist as of Dec 5, 2011.
OnlySemiCoherent 3 months ago
But the problem with certain games that approach this issue is that they end up sacrificing their videogaminess, you know? It´s important to note that a good art game and a very artistic game are different things, and that you can´t really expect videogames to evolve in the same fashion that cinema or literature have because unlike those mediums games are still restricted by the current hardware generation, and also by the critically bankrupt view that even some gamers have of the industry.
TheTurtlerage 3 months ago
two assumptions you made:
1. games like God Of War, Gears Of War, Bioshock are "fun"... different people have different tastes
2. having fun in a game is mutually exclusive to a game being "artsy"
I disagree with the premise, games SHOULD be fun... but you call gears of war "fun" and I dont like that game. You call Braid "artsy" and I do find that game to be very fun
so I guess in some sort of twisted way, I agree with your general message... but your wording is terrible
velocityeleven 3 months ago
I'm fine with games being about whatever. If you want to make a video game that's intellectually stimulating and raises deep philosophical questions, then by all means do so. Just don't lose focus that these are video GAMES, where fun and entertainment should be paramount. A good example is Braid. People often praise it for being "artistic". Well, what I liked about the game was the fun platforming and interesting time control mechanics. The "artistic" aspect really did not add anything to it.
DeadEye935 3 months ago
we are not toymakers ! \,,/
wiry00 4 months ago
Yeah, I agree, games need to get away from guns. But, I disagree, games are meant to be fun, movies are meant to be fun, books are meant to be fun, music is meant to be fun. If you don't enjoy it why do you do it? He's getting it wrong, having games all focused on the same thing is NOT fun. It's repetitive and it gets old.
ligerman30 4 months ago
@ligerman30 you missed his point completly, he said that fun should stay and that we need more games that make you think, he's not saying all games should be like he said
gipsyg27 3 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
@gipsyg27 On a second read of my comment, I misrepresented what I meant to say. What I disagree with him about is the statement that fun isn't enough, when fun is what matters in all forms of media. I understand his point about branching out and it isn't wrong at the heart, but, his wording makes him wrong. "Fun" is the only thing there is. For example, all genres of movies can be considered enjoyable, even horror movies. And if the movie isn't enjoyable than it's a bad movie.
ligerman30 3 months ago
@ligerman30 well that's your opinoun and i respect it, but what i think he was trying to say is that fun is good but games can be fun AND make you think at the same time not that games cant be enjoyable and smart at the same to.
gipsyg27 3 months ago
Admittedly, everything I loved about Bioshock had NOTHING to do with all the killing. Everything else was fantastic, but the constant barrage of splicers...yeah, that, the moral choice, and the ending were the weakest parts of that game.
HMClearSkies 4 months ago
...and then he went to work for the company that put out Duke Nukem Forever. Irony.
Hailogon 4 months ago in playlist Rev Rants
@Hailogon
Yeah cuz he made the game ammirite?
TheRawrzor 4 months ago
The wrong part of this argument are three facts:
1. Famous and serious literature almost always has a violent aspect (All of the Epic poems are about slaying monsters and most of Alexandre Dumas is about revenge and swordfights)
2. People don't play Bioshock, RPGs, or Nintendo games only to murder people.
3. Only around 50% of games are macho fanatsy bullshit. There's puzzle games, mini games, casual games, Portal and besides if they have violence its more mario were its cartoony.
ew275x 5 months ago
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gipsyg27 4 months ago in playlist gipsyg27's favorites
Hipster garbage
Golem1rtn1 5 months ago
Why is it important that we see this guy's face while he's talking? Anyone know?
keithburgun 5 months ago
@keithburgun Narcissism
MrFriendlyFella 5 months ago
@keithburgun
Yeah, body language. Its a pretty important factor of persuasive speaking. Thats like the first thing you learn in any speaking class, and should pretty much already know anyway. Stop trying to be witty by actually showing how retarded you are.
natpjohsnon 5 months ago
Disregard Nintendo, a huge dedicated video games company, to validate your argument? Good idea.
HedjaHead 5 months ago
I generally agree, but you kinda went off the deep end at around 7:29. Just pointless hostility.
Kalkbrenner 5 months ago
Planescape: Torment.
That is all.
Thoric485 5 months ago
Why are you acting like anyone wants to hear your idiotic, POINTLESS rant?
And shave that beard, it looks bad on you.
ryangr0 5 months ago
Boring rant, stop talking about this shit.
MrEduardKhil 5 months ago
Pretentious hipster bullshit. Fuck you and fuck anyone that agrees. I just want to play games for fun. Whats with all these jerk asses that come out of nowhere that try so hard to make gaming important to the "human condition"? Isn't enjoying yourself part of the human condition?
Trode22 5 months ago
@Trode22 True. Though I still wouldn't mind games being both.
MisterHeroman 5 months ago
@Trode22 Just because something isnt outright fun doesnt mean you can't enjoy something.
Hallucination14 5 months ago
But gears of war and flower are shit games. Grimm fandango, silent hill, painkiller and timesplitters are both deep/have good story and fun
Silenthe 5 months ago
That so many people enjoy games where the entire game revolves around shooting and killing the other coupled with the constant opiate of "achievements" is telling about the culture in which we live but games will never ever be more than what they are right now unless the base culture that breed the demand these type of games is changed.
Rennonz 5 months ago
Saying that the only games that exists are violent and macho is pretty dumb. I personally view video games as an art medium, however, there are only one game that I consider even close to art: "The Stanley Parade". I played braid, and to be honest, it was pretentious bullshit. Also, you are saying that this is the same as saying that we could only read one genre of books, but that is also not true. Can you actually say with a straight face that Europa Universalis is the same as Call of Duty?
lullelulle32 5 months ago
And we have really limited fun. There are so many more things to do, fun things, that we aren't doing. In this video, at least some of the time, fun seems to translate into violence. I don't like that.
ScabiousGarde 6 months ago
I wish we could have another shooter with a good story line. Max payne 1 has one of the best story lines of anything i have played. Revenge, a guy trying to reconnect with his dead family some how, tortured by nightmares. Corporate greed and shadowy conspiracys. Vigilanteism for the wrong reasons.
AoshiAtheist 6 months ago
I love all games:
Harvest Moon, Call of Duty, Metal Gear Solid, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Chuchu Rocket, World of Warcraft, Dirt 3, Machinarium, Elder Scrolls, Minecraft, Super Smash Bros, San Andreas, Donkey Kong Country, Phoenix Wright, Gunz.
but there are also many games I do not like, 3rd person shooters is one of them, I hate replica's of other games, for example saints row.
I also have a personal hate for any film related games, the quality of rushed film title games are too much.
ivansegos 6 months ago
@ivansegos Do you hate Saints Row because people say it was based off of GTA?
Tekknique253 6 months ago
ARE YOU FUCKING LISTENING, JIM STERLING?!?!
Undkor 6 months ago 13
Its called Minecraft :D
MiniMicro02 7 months ago
2:30 - Pop music.
MusicJustin15 7 months ago
Most of the games I play are games that are thought-invoking, engaging, well written, fully realized games. Well, 80 percent of them...70...60. I will leave it at 50.
Wait, why I am kidding myself? I am addicted to surreal, virtual violence in video games.
Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, Fallout 3, New Vegas, and Bioshock, to name a few, are all fully realized, prolific pieces of art.
MusicJustin15 7 months ago
@MusicJustin15 Where you kill people.
DinDinAlright 5 months ago
well from now on I will not laugh at Dating sims
Imperatorumgladio 7 months ago
I think videogames do rely too much on the tried and true "Killing stuff will sell copies" mindset, which in turn keeps the medium from evolving into something else.
Videogames are still "art" though . I'd say it's one of the most fully realised one there is, because everything in a game is pure creation. Movies have real humans, existing sets, but everything in games comes from imagination. It's just sad that said imagination is usually used for power fantasy shoot-em ups. But hey, it sells
JamesMasonSH 7 months ago
Here is the flaw with your argument: a game is fun if and only if it involves killing people. SimCity is fun. Adventure games are fun. Puzzle games are fun. Sports games (including racing games) are fun. Bioshock is fun because of the artistic design, atmosphere, story and political subtext, not because you can kill people in different ways. In fact combat is Bioshock's weakest element. But you need some game mechanic, like combat, to keep the player engaged, otherwise its just a movie.
AdvocatusThei 7 months ago
@AdvocatusThei
And regarding the final end of your rant - it's always good to see that ad hominem is still the goto argument trump card on the internet.
AdvocatusThei 7 months ago
yeah but you also have to look at the demographic of video games usually its 12 to 20's but there should be more artistic mature games
jameshodell4 7 months ago
this video was awesome
son12509 7 months ago
wait.... someone explain to me why rev doesnt like citizen kane?
son12509 7 months ago
I was sent here via recommendation from Extra Credits.
TheNamelessCharacter 7 months ago 41
@TheNamelessCharacter Me, too :D
quazifarhan 2 days ago
testicles...
artemis1490 7 months ago
@somebutthead I think your user name is very appropriate.
mephitofthelake 7 months ago
I agree completely. I cannot describe how much it angers me when people try to limit something, just out of fear. (Skip to 0:55) You might want to duck, by the way.
ApprenticeNick 7 months ago
Are you going to be making another Rev Rant anytime soon? Or if you have more, will you upload them to YouTube?
Rubberman202 8 months ago
The fun factor is the most important part of a game. I like artistic games as much as every other guy but if it's not fun why bother play it?
Sceraph 8 months ago
Finally I think we honestly have something that is art. Heavy Rain.
Clesarie 8 months ago
@Clesarie Anthony Burch would disagree.
Actually, he already wrote an article about how much he doesn't like "Heavy Rain" and how it's the furthest thing from a video game.
FlammaMan 5 months ago
@FlammaMan Yeah well he works for a company thats a 1 trick pony. What do they make besides borderland and, thats not to my personal liking. I do feel like Heavy Rain was just a movie but, I enjoyed watching it. Not so much playing it.
Clesarie 5 months ago
@somebutthead
Except people don't only watch football or hockey or basketball or baseball. Those that play do experience an aspect of the human condition. They use teamwork with another human being to achieve a goal. They experience anger or acceptance or sadness or confrontation with a challenge that they must overcome. Those that no longer play remember what it's like to do so. Either that or they empathize with those that do. Not all diversions from "real life" are empty of emotion.
swoodjnt 8 months ago
Intense. You get so into these things, your hands just fly all over the place! x3
That's why I loved the game Fragile Dreams. It was a wonderful mixture of action and happiness and melancholy; a post-apocalyptic world thats feels so lonely when you walk through it... You're right. It wouldn't hurt to have a few more serious games thrown in to the mix. Im getting to sick of shoot-em-ups. It also helps that Im a gentle gamer to begin with.
Rune Factory Frontier and Harvest Moon for the win! :D
Tatsumiko 8 months ago
Very good points. Im glad I found this video, ive been thinking this same thing for years. There have been a few games I have enjoyed this generation but im sick of the same old thing
oakfire12 8 months ago
INTP
oakfire12 8 months ago
The thing with Bioshock is that at it's core, it is just a game where you inventively kill people. But BIoshock itself is a piece of art. It's about conformity and politics and science and mankind's true potential. That's what makes it such a treasured game. Games right now are at the stage where they are art its just that most of them convey it through linear shooters. But there are games like Heavy Rain and Myst that keep the entire franchise from doing this.
superhippie87 8 months ago
You keep talking about how much potential there is for games to be something more than just a fun experience, but you spend this entire rant just talking about what you think is wrong with the mainstream productions of the medium. If you're going to argue how great games can be created through the medium that don't follow those mainstream patterns then discuss how these artistic games would actually work. You talk about how it should be done but don't spend any time talking about how it could.
OmegaWhenua90 8 months ago
I agree with you, except that last part was pretty over the top.
Nextstopearth 9 months ago
"Upon release, Myst was a surprise hit, with critics lauding the ability of the game to immerse players in the fictional world. The game was the best-selling PC game of all time, until The Sims exceeded its sales in 2002."
Thanks wikipedia
Circler13 9 months ago
fucking brilliant.
dragancer 9 months ago
"citizen Kane, unfortunately"?
sharinganbyakugan 9 months ago
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Mariner35 9 months ago
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Mariner35 9 months ago
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Mariner35 9 months ago
Metal Gear Solid
hydrake 9 months ago 6
If I had a choice, I would rather play a game that was just flat out macho fun as opposed to one that was only artistically stimulating and boring.
MsRustyMitten 9 months ago
shave the beard and I might take you seriously
Godxela18 9 months ago
The problem with all this is that you're drawing a direct parallel between film/literature and video games. Film has a bedrock of artistic integrity because it stemmed from earlier forms of emotion-inducing narrative. Gaming's bedrock is bleeps and bloops on ancient computers. As a form of entertainment, games couldn't be farther apart from film or literature and shouldn't be compared to them. Games are interactive, not passive like film, and I wish I could keep going but I'm out of space.
MonsterFlicks 9 months ago
@MonsterFlicks Games are interactive? News to me. I thought most modern games held your hand through story lines and didn't let you explore, instead making you walk down linear corridors or follow a specific blip point on the map with no choices throughout most of the game
Tekkor 9 months ago
@Tekko When a movie starts, it will end, and what you take from it is up to you. When a game starts, your hand-eye coordination/reflexes/whatever will play into you seeing the end. That's what I meant by interactive. Advances have made it so that games draw more and more from cinema, but don't be fooled. Modern games are prettier, more involved Mario Bros, and thus can't express the human condition in the way that film can. As games advance it's a possibility, but it's simply not an option now.
MonsterFlicks 9 months ago
jew
mastapimp189 9 months ago
Games can be "fun" and still explore themes. You seem to think that the only "fun" games are brown and grey shooters and mindless hack and slash games. What about games like Majora's Mask which deeply explore a theme in a unique way, but at their essence are still "fun". Every single emotion and theme that you can think of either has been or can be explored in a fun game.
fehzorz 9 months ago
video games as art
lol
liual90 9 months ago
this dude is 100% right. We need more games like Shadow of the Colossus and less rehashed games like Call of Duty.
itsweedeveryday 9 months ago
This guy is brilliant and correct. Gaming is a medium, just like movies and books. There's no reason why weird things that make us feel bad inside should be limited to movies and books, and gaming has to make us feel like we're having fun. There's no reason why the introduction of the ability to interact with the world suddenly mandates that it is "fun."
theguyi26 9 months ago
nice tie and mustache douche
Scottishrugbyguy 9 months ago
Yeah we need to expand board games away from just fun too, they're all about the same thing, screwing everyone else that plays over.
stiposwift 9 months ago
I was in full agreement up until about 7 minutes through. Yes, games as a medium have a lot of potential merit for poignant and deep expression of ideas, but his comment about BioShock makes it seem like somehow you can't simultaneously have that with action-driven gameplay. You can't reduce what a game is "about" to just the mechanics of the gameplay. A game has to be more than just an 'interactive' book/movie/whatever, the mechanics of that interaction need to be fun on their own as well.
SZalewski 9 months ago
He makes some good points, but I don't like the idea that "fun" always has to be associated with mindless nonsense. Nobody's saying a game has to be about violence and cussing and sex to be fun. One person's fun is different from another person's fun. Some people have fun skiing and skydiving, other people have fun playing chess and reading literature. So to call out games like Gears of War on such a broad account as "fun" is incorrect - games SHOULD be fun.
BaconStein 9 months ago
I think the real enemy here is bigotry, elitism, and lack of creativity in general, which seems like the real point he's getting at. Nobody wants to play 30 FPS games with the same exact story, same exact characters, same exact gameplay mechanics and same exact weapons, just like nobody wants to play a million puzzle games that all force you to "think" strenuously about your next move. I say just let games be games - broaden the spectrum of ideas so that it's not always the same thing.
BaconStein 9 months ago
Books, movies and music are cheap compared to games. If I'm spending $60 I want shit to be fun.
koiboi 9 months ago
In my opinion, there's a big difference between a "fun" game and a "good" game (still thinking of a better word for this). "Fun" is more like any Mario game, Rock Band, Just Cause 2, The Sims, SSX Tricky, and so on. "Good" is more like Mass Effect, Silent Hill, BioShock, Final Fantasy, Metroid Prime, etc. There's something to be said about games that make you bounce off the walls with laughter, and games that make bring you into an immersive world, while still being entertaining.
somedumbgamer 9 months ago
who gives a shit, play games for fun.
vargaha 9 months ago
shut up, you insecure neckbeard wolfshirt manchild.
GloboChem 9 months ago
wow this guy is a HUGE douche.... and he contradicts himself. And makes enormous assumptions...
soilwork71492 9 months ago
welp, guess i'm a coward.
Dazwa070 9 months ago
Yes, because extremely profitable games like Rock Band and Mario Kart are all about shooting and chainsaws, right?
GregorioXII 9 months ago
I don't think this video could be any more wrong.
You keep going back to Braid - Braid wasn't great because of it's artistic expression or subdued themes. Braid was great because the gameplay and design were top notch.
In short; it was fun.
I'm sure i'm not alone when i say that i don't give a crap what the game is about- As long as it's fun. Don't pigeonhole gamers into a group that need killing or violence in their medium.
Fun drives the medium - regardless of how it's presented.
Trotz8bit 9 months ago
I disagree with this rant after 1:30
Games don't need to be art. They are allowed to be diversion and a fantasy. I like being immersed into a story where SPACE SOLDIER 45 overcomes all the odds and saves the human race by blowing aliens to smithereens.
GnomishGoggles 9 months ago
games need to stay away from corridor simulators
Viratic 9 months ago
What bothers me about the "games as art" thing is that most of the people who support it and the games that show it try to make games artistic through environments, cinematics, and even plain text, which is really just putting artistic bits of other mediums together in a game. What I want to see is people say something real about the human condition through some actual gameplay, and make that gameplay entertaining at the same time. The only examples I can think of are games that show
Deathbagel4Minecraft 9 months ago
@Deathbagel4Minecraft I agree. I believe it was a Zero Punctuation episode where Silent Hill 2 was being reviewed and they said that the best thing it does, that no other medium could do, was oppressive atmosphere via its gameplay. That is the kind of stuff I think we need.
drumsticks57 9 months ago
@bigniggurdick Games provide a sensory experience while being capable of eliciting a multitude of various emotions. How is that anything BUT art? It's the same reason we listen to music or stare at a painting on end, because it is thought provoking and inspiring. Not ALL games are equal, that's certainly true. However to say that no games are art is an insult to not only the developers, but the players who find any level of enjoyment with them.
darksquall3402 9 months ago
@darksquall3402 Hi, never ever argue with someone who calls himself bigniggurdick about art. Very nice rant btw Anthony! I can only agree, we need more diversity!
KampfKiewi245 9 months ago
@KampfKiewi245 hahaha I know. As soon as I posted it I went "why am I arguing with a troll?"
darksquall3402 9 months ago
@bigniggurdick
Look at MGS4. If that is not art, I have no idea what is.
jokemasterslifer 9 months ago
@jokemasterslifer As much as I hate to agree with that other guy, I would say MSG4 is more of a movie too. A good artistic game would show art through gameplay and interactivity, which is something only a game can do and do the best. MSG4 just takes away control for most of the game, forcing you to sit through countless cutscenes which, as far as games go, is not good storytelling.
drumsticks57 9 months ago
@drumsticks57
Oh, it forces you to? Even when there's a way to skip them? Look, if you're interested in the story, you watch the cutscenes (which are beautifully made), or you can skip them to get back to the gameplay. Also, if it isn't artistic, then what about the depth put into the sound, such as traveling to other countries just to get a few recordings of walking on dirt or stone?...
jokemasterslifer 9 months ago
@drumsticks57
...The graphics as well, even though I'm not a graphics whore, you must admit they're beautiful and well done. The gameplay itself as well is very good, though the way I would describe it would make you think it's the same thing as just killing people, even though it's not all that. I do agree that MGS4 acts like a movie, but movies don't have interactivity and gameplay.
jokemasterslifer 9 months ago
@jokemasterslifer I never said they weren't. Music: amazing. I love the theme. Graphics: absolutely stellar. But as far as delivering a story, I'd rather it be told through gameplay than through endless cutscenes. Not to mention that the gameplay itself, at times, feels more like an afterthought to the rest of it. The controls can be very stiff and awkward. And when the gameplay is interrupted every thirty min. or less for a cutscene, that detracts from telling the story through the gameplay.
drumsticks57 9 months ago
So who got recommended here by Escapist Magazine?
That aside, I wholeheartedly agree, considering the dozen visual novels I've played.
humrH2360 9 months ago
Go get a drink this is a long one
EverythingOldSchool 9 months ago
Both points of this argument are just absurd, really. Games are a medium for expression, therefore, they are the product of those who created them. Final Fantasy 6 was the first game to ever make me cry and look when that was made.
tarrker 9 months ago
well spoken, friend. I truly feel the same way, about software in general...
Stn3dRaid3r 9 months ago
Your made up statistic of 90% of games being GoW clones (sumarizing the elements you mentioned) fails to take into account puzzles, strategy, rpgs, simulation, and pretty much everything that is not a derivative of either GoW. I think it's more like 40% are pointless macho fantasies, 5 - 10% are "artistic" or "serious", and the rest of them are somewhere in between (Ever thought about relationships or the self after playing Persona 3, for example?)
DrQuijano 9 months ago
I think what needs to happen is that all the people that whine about fun games should instead just buy the art games from ice pick lodge, tale of tales and other devs and turn them into AAA developers that still do art games. This way the industry will be balanced and everyone can shut up and enjoy what they enjoy.
Racecarlock 9 months ago
155 ppl must be retards
tato3111 9 months ago
@tato3111 ppl, eh?
GregorioXII 9 months ago
Call me when you make a game.
cascoll2000 10 months ago
are you jewish ?
callmecheerfulstar 10 months ago
As long as I still get my fun games, you can make as many heavy rains and passages as you want. I just won't buy or play them. And if I'm called stupid for that, fine.
Racecarlock 10 months ago
@Racecarlock no one is saying we should get rid of fun games we are just saying we should have more artistic games like braid or flower or okami.
demonhuskfang 10 months ago
@demonhuskfang
Or System Shock 2, Bioshock, Amnesia - The Dark Descent, Penumbra, God of War (the first one)... Even these games have some artistic merit.
Soulsphere001 10 months ago
@Soulsphere001 i know but i labeled games that could more easily be seen as artistic by the general public i highly agree that those games are art.
demonhuskfang 10 months ago
@demonhuskfang
That's true.
I wish their were more games that actually make you think, ones that challenge you to think differently or that give you a difficult choice. I really should get back to playing Dragon Age as I found the choices in that game interesting. Mass Effect 2 also has that one choice that is, if you think about it, far more complex than you might originally think.
Soulsphere001 9 months ago
I also would like to go on record that I am a Gears of War fan boy. Maybe not the most dedicated but I did buy my Xbox 360 just to play the beta.
Skylookingdown 10 months ago
I have an issue with that "art" games that come out of main stream gaming have that tacked on feel. There are some games that have either the potential for or, in rarer cases, can actually make the game play what makes the game deep. I think there is a need to break from this overly indulgent game play but we don't know how yet. There aren't games that say something to people through their game play. It can happen but it won't come easily.
Skylookingdown 10 months ago
We need more diversity in games, but please don't be so ignorant to say that the fantastic competitive offerings of some games don't have artistic merit. That's as closed minded as saying that we should never expand out of such games (both rather close-minded views) . Art is anything that through any creative means affects someone- intellectually, emotionally, ect. If we close the definition of art into a certain area than we truly forget what makes art... art. We need both old and new.
MDSRocker 10 months ago
More like: Anthony helps save games from their current audience
TehEze 10 months ago
Isn't that the guy from Andrew saves the world?
ZoanBlade90 10 months ago
@ZoanBlade90 Anthony saves the world. yes.
codycurry52 10 months ago
Just found this series. Now I need to watch all of it. Fuck.
Daver14X 10 months ago 16
keep pressing 1 , for subliminal suggestions
aCRAZYanarchist 10 months ago
The Rap: Games need to be more than fun (but they can still be fun).
For me, it's not an issue. So long as games are cathartic, I see no issue with deeper games. However I may have to ask how they would plan to do that. The main thought I have is an issue of loss in a pokemon like game, where you become attached to your first 'Pokemon' by the designers makeing all alternatives to replace it being at the same level it was gotten at (all wild 'pokemon' at ~lv 1 only) yet permadeath is in play.
ZexionSephiroth 10 months ago
True, but here's something: In a very artsie game, how do you slap in the gameplay?
RPG's as a general rule have good stories, but either:
a. They play in a FF-style turn based thing
b. They play in a "tactics" fashion
or c. They play like toned down FPS's
And a great amount of people seem to just bitch about RPG's saying "they have terrible gameplay"
Terryracoon 10 months ago
This guy's a dipshit, pure and simple.
ScorpionAndZangief 10 months ago
I think you missed the point of BioShock. BioShock proved that you don't have to choose between fun and art. BioShock is rabid-mutant-slaughtering fun, while at the same time telling an intriguing, thought-provoking, touching and relevant story, with sociopolitical commentary, stunningly innovative art direction and world-building. That, plus the infamous "WYK" plot twist did something that no other medium could do: It turned the fundamental constraints of the medium into a storytelling feature.
Sylocat 10 months ago
not really 90% of games, more like 70% but that nitpicky....
MrDevling 11 months ago
This problem also arises when people say games should only be serious. We just want diversity...
Abadninja 11 months ago 23
@Abadninja Everyone loves diversity. But the starting point is what matters. It's harder for something funny/crude to be taken seriously, than for something significant to be made relatable/humourous.
That's the real reason to fear for games as a medium.
lusulpher 10 months ago
@Abadninja
I've never heard anyone saying that games should only be serious. But, yeah, we need diversity. We need video games that aren't blatantly made for teenagers with the over the top juvenility.
Soulsphere001 10 months ago
@Soulsphere001 If you've never heard anyone say games should be only serious then you never heard Bogost's early works or the comments of some "game" designers (more like interactive fiction writers) on the GDCs from 2006 - 2009.
DrQuijano 9 months ago
@Abadninja how can I comment on this more to show my support
Coupman 9 months ago
@Abadninja Did you even watch this video?
hobotastic 9 months ago
We need more people like this guy and the guy from extra credits to support the art side of gaming. Just like we need more people like Day9 to support other aspects of gaming. This is the most versatile medium the world has ever seen and we need to exploit their full potential and make gaming legit in the eyes of the general public.
kavugnarr 11 months ago 2
i will always remember final fantasy 3 ...god....a miss that times
tato3111 11 months ago
damn, almost gave me goosebumps! very well said
ConnerMatteBL 11 months ago
Make me a game about love. If it is fun, I will play it.
Make me a game about taking your kids to school. If it is fun, I will play it.
Make me a game about growing old. If it is fun, I will play it.
Hell, make me Citizen Kane: The video game. If it is fun, I will play it.
Notice the pattern? I play games for good gameplay. Good gameplay = fun. If it also happens to be a work of art that makes me question my place in the zieltgeist, more power to it, but it's not why I'm playing it.
Mulky2000 11 months ago 2
All media struggles with this issue. The studio system nearly killed Hollywood same with publishing houses. Currently Star Wars choked to death on its own historic value when it went back for seconds (and now thirds; I weep for my children). I'm sure Stephen King would like to stop writing the same novel. It is a curse all mediums have to deal with. It is sort of like growing pains of an entertainment medium, fighting the base human desires. Remember the internet was for porn once too.
ThePeteSquared 11 months ago
I've never watched just one video before subscribing to someone before.
Very thought provoking.
skellytinhood 11 months ago