The 'positive', 'negative' and 'neutral' distinction seems rather unnecessary. I think you're onto something when you say that placing someone into the foreigner category is a way of excluding them from the established social hierarchy, but it bears emphasizing that this is not always the case, and certainly doesn't depend on any usage of the word 'foreigner' itself.
@HamJeong While conventional concepts like age, marital status, job, title, etc place the person (foreigner or not) as existing in society, designation as foreigner seems to be a way to identify those who manipulate meaning and symbols in society. One good example I find is the way in which Koreans differentiate themselves from foreigners who know close to impeccable Korean language, history, culture, etc. its usually done by referring to 'uniquely Korean' concepts like 한, 정 etc.
@HamJeong Of course, there are plenty of ways to exclude people, but I want to look at the "power" of this word by itself. There are some foreigners who feel its use toward them is exclusionary in a very negative sense. My purpose in the video was trying to explain how it functions neutrally.
@p00lman I was just saying, I wonder to what extent it's useful to talk about a 'negative function' or a 'neutral function' of the word itself. There is no power of the word by itself, there is the myriad ways in which it is used by people, which, I assume, escapes the 'good, neutral or bad' tri(?)chotomy.
Ive almost thrown down a few times because someone called me that word in a negative manner. Any bad words is okay but that words really angers me. I guess being born in America, a term of that equivalance is never used towards me. I like your vids poolman, they educate people who have never been. I need to go back, its been 3 horrible months in the USA :(
Michael, you're a gem. This video is great and, as always, your intuitions about Korean culture are spot-on. My only hope is that you continue to study the Korean language, and that you inspire your friends and fans to do the same. That is truly the only way to attempt to understand Korean culture. Bravo!
Good interesting video. About the who social hierarchy thing. I think Koreans do try to put us into their social hierarchy. That why we are always asked our age, if were are single, our job etc. It is so they can try to place us into that hierarchy. This is especially done by older Korean. With younger Koreans it is sometimes different. For foreigners who work for/with Koreans. We are definitely placed in the social hierarchy. This is however unwanted and undesired like was said.
@kwad8 That's an interesting point. I don't know if I agree, but it's something I hadn't stopped to think about. When people ask me my age and marital status, I usually think it has more to do with them determining my prospects for the future. If I'm old and/or married, I'm more likely to remain here. If I'm young and single, I may be looking to leave or move around more. That's a much more likely possibility for foreigners than for Korean citizens.
@p00lman Your thinking makes sense too. but Questions about Age, Martial status, Job, University name, Major studied in University are all asked for the purposes of mentally placing you into the hierarchy. Watch Koreans when they first meet each other they often ask each other the same questions. Once they know the answers they know how they should talk to and address one another. They are standard questions asked when Koreans meet new people.
I think in English there are words to distinguish foreigners like that.. but it's not like a whole generalizing word like "foreigner." In school, no matter what generation of immigrants you are from, you will be referred to as "that Asian" in your class, school, street and etc. I personally think that waegookin can have positive connotations.I mean what do waegookins want to be called by? caucasians?? in the western world we're referred to as Asians.. so it is something to think about.
@tokee1234567 Like I said, I personally find no offense in the term, and I'd prefer it to "American," and especially to "white person," although I don't find either particularly offensive. I'm only offended when people promote my videos as "a foreigner/white person who loves Korea," because I feel like it emphasizes my ethnicity while downplaying the quality/merits of my work. In fact, if being a foreigner IS positive in that context, I'd still rather it not be used that way. I'd rather be me.
@tokee1234567 Yes you are called "Asian" but once we know from what country you are from we will call you that. Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc. I understand being called a foreigner to a point. I just feel the word is way overused. I preferred to be called a American because thats what I am. I am proud of being an American as much you are proud of being Korean. In Korea being foreign is NOT a good thing, so it isn't positive. Also the word "Asian" is much more specifc than the word Foreigner.
@kwad8 yea. in the US the broader term for an Asian is an "alien," or that's what's on the legal documents.. but at least we aren't called that in our everyday lives...and even if people know I'm Korean I'm mostly referred to as "the Asian." that is from my experience of being one of the minorities in my major lol.
@tokee1234567 All of my paperwork in Korea call me "Alien" too. Thats nothing special. It is a major change to go from being a majority to being a minority. Since I have never been the majority I have never experienced that. anywhere. The fact they said "the Asian." sounds kinda like a nickname. similar to people calling me "token" since they say "THE asian" it sounds really specific and based on what you said it is a easy yet lazy way to ID you. But i don't have the full story or know the tone
Is this what that Facebook post was about? Interesting video, I think the points you made are the general conclusion that I also reached, but I still don't think there is one straight answer for everyone.
In my thought, I'd like to say you, you'd better learn more Korean language if you don't like to hear '외국인'. Because Koreans do not fluent in English than you have thought. The meaning of '외국인' in Korean's heart include fear about English. I agree with many points what you said though. Koreans who know real Korean manners do not impose their age to younger person than themselves. I know there are some culture like that in Korea but that is not manner and I can't understand eiter.It’s a shame.
@Jej621 WTF? That is nonsense!!!! Not matter how much Korean a 외국인 speaks. no matter how much a 외국인 follows Korean customs. A 외국인 will ALWAYS be a 외국인. Until we can look Korean what we do does not affect how you see us. By your words. 외국인 = fear i.e.(xenophobic) So doesn't that makes 외국인 a negative word? Koreans need to get out of their tiny bubble and learn there is a larger world outside of Seoul....I mean Korea. Koreans need to be careful. Korean culture is starting to hold Korea back.
@kwad8 I know what you mean and I already said I'd agreed with 마익흘 in many parts. I just said "include". In my personal opinion, Korea need to go out of jus sanguinis. You know, "우리(we)" is a favorite word in Korea but it takes time because it made for 5000years. BTW I think that to use English is not absolute authority. It's natural to use Korean language and to follow Korean customs in Korea.
@Jej621 Yes it takes time to change but it doesn't take THAT long. At the time of Korean independence in 1945 Korea was dirt poor and under a dictatorship. 50 years later Korea had become a developed country and began democracy. Many of Korean cultural and custom changes happened during that time as well. Change/ progress will only happen when people want it to happen.
@kwad8 I suppose you're misunderstanding what I told you. I mean Korea has been a single-race nation for 5000years so it takes time for changing social attitudes about 외국인. Of course, it would not to take 5000years for changing.
@Jej621 I not misunderstanding. I completely understand what you were saying. I think that is just an excuse.
My point is that social attitudes about 외국인 will change when people want to change. Right now people and government DON'T WANT to change. They are content with how things are. Korean Government policies, Laws and public education are good examples of that.
@kwad8 I don't know well about those but If there are some injustice in Korean laws and education, I think Korea and Koreans have to going to change about matters like that. BTW, have you ever tried to understand sentiments of Koreans? I never want to excuse because I think there are no reason to make excuse about it. I just had explained. There are so many people on the earth, so many different people and so many differnt histories.
@Jej621 Every Korean has an opinion or thought on education, You know more than you want to say. What do you know well. You are right there is no reason to make an excuse about it. BUT you still are. You are right again There many peoples, cultures and histories BUT "You Koreans" don't care about any of them. To "you Koreans" they are all the same they are foreign. "You Koreans" know very little about the outside world and just don't care. Until people start caring nothing will change.
@kwad8 What an amazing! You say you know better than me what I know and how I feel. You look like my father who are almost 80years old. O.K. You win! Koreans will never be changed. Are you satisfied, now? I never wanted to have an argument about it from the first. I never denied what 마익흘 said , I just said it need time. But Ok. You're right in everything. Let's stop here.
@Jej621 LOL. You didn't get my point. I am not saying I know what you feel. But I am seeing you are feeling something but are hiding it. I didn't know we were arguing. I thought we were just have a friendly discussion. Don't give up now. this is interesting. I can't have this kind of discussion with most koreans. You are special in that regard.
The 'positive', 'negative' and 'neutral' distinction seems rather unnecessary. I think you're onto something when you say that placing someone into the foreigner category is a way of excluding them from the established social hierarchy, but it bears emphasizing that this is not always the case, and certainly doesn't depend on any usage of the word 'foreigner' itself.
HamJeong 1 month ago
@HamJeong While conventional concepts like age, marital status, job, title, etc place the person (foreigner or not) as existing in society, designation as foreigner seems to be a way to identify those who manipulate meaning and symbols in society. One good example I find is the way in which Koreans differentiate themselves from foreigners who know close to impeccable Korean language, history, culture, etc. its usually done by referring to 'uniquely Korean' concepts like 한, 정 etc.
HamJeong 1 month ago
@HamJeong Of course, there are plenty of ways to exclude people, but I want to look at the "power" of this word by itself. There are some foreigners who feel its use toward them is exclusionary in a very negative sense. My purpose in the video was trying to explain how it functions neutrally.
p00lman 1 month ago
@p00lman I was just saying, I wonder to what extent it's useful to talk about a 'negative function' or a 'neutral function' of the word itself. There is no power of the word by itself, there is the myriad ways in which it is used by people, which, I assume, escapes the 'good, neutral or bad' tri(?)chotomy.
HamJeong 1 month ago
잘 했어요 ~ :D ᄏᄏᄏᄏ
미안합니다... 제가 한국어를 잘 못해요...
어쨌든... 좋은 비디오! ^^
Mariah6789 1 month ago in playlist More videos from p00lman
My husband is Korean but is a foreigner = non-Korean passport holder. That's all.
외국인 = someone who is not Korean > foreigner. ^_^
jamieconnect 2 months ago
I've seen it used in a good context towards me~
ChoiMinhoIsHot 2 months ago
What is your job in korea?
treesy12 2 months ago
난 미국사람아니야!!!! call me 외국인 anytime just dont say 미국사람이다!!!!
pgraham28 2 months ago
난 한국인이야
LeeHena 2 months ago
Ive almost thrown down a few times because someone called me that word in a negative manner. Any bad words is okay but that words really angers me. I guess being born in America, a term of that equivalance is never used towards me. I like your vids poolman, they educate people who have never been. I need to go back, its been 3 horrible months in the USA :(
MrHanjuen 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
you can take advantage, but only if you are white
inelics 2 months ago
난 외국인이야
expatkerri 3 months ago
Michael, you're a gem. This video is great and, as always, your intuitions about Korean culture are spot-on. My only hope is that you continue to study the Korean language, and that you inspire your friends and fans to do the same. That is truly the only way to attempt to understand Korean culture. Bravo!
barcher 3 months ago 2
@barcher You have a point!
p00lman 3 months ago
Good interesting video. About the who social hierarchy thing. I think Koreans do try to put us into their social hierarchy. That why we are always asked our age, if were are single, our job etc. It is so they can try to place us into that hierarchy. This is especially done by older Korean. With younger Koreans it is sometimes different. For foreigners who work for/with Koreans. We are definitely placed in the social hierarchy. This is however unwanted and undesired like was said.
kwad8 3 months ago
@kwad8 That's an interesting point. I don't know if I agree, but it's something I hadn't stopped to think about. When people ask me my age and marital status, I usually think it has more to do with them determining my prospects for the future. If I'm old and/or married, I'm more likely to remain here. If I'm young and single, I may be looking to leave or move around more. That's a much more likely possibility for foreigners than for Korean citizens.
p00lman 3 months ago
@p00lman Your thinking makes sense too. but Questions about Age, Martial status, Job, University name, Major studied in University are all asked for the purposes of mentally placing you into the hierarchy. Watch Koreans when they first meet each other they often ask each other the same questions. Once they know the answers they know how they should talk to and address one another. They are standard questions asked when Koreans meet new people.
kwad8 3 months ago
@kwad8 Oh yeah, I totally know why Koreans ask each other, but when they ask me, I don't usually assume it's for the same purpose.
p00lman 3 months ago
@kwad8 But maybe you're right. I'll think about it more.
p00lman 3 months ago
I think in English there are words to distinguish foreigners like that.. but it's not like a whole generalizing word like "foreigner." In school, no matter what generation of immigrants you are from, you will be referred to as "that Asian" in your class, school, street and etc. I personally think that waegookin can have positive connotations.I mean what do waegookins want to be called by? caucasians?? in the western world we're referred to as Asians.. so it is something to think about.
tokee1234567 3 months ago
@tokee1234567 Like I said, I personally find no offense in the term, and I'd prefer it to "American," and especially to "white person," although I don't find either particularly offensive. I'm only offended when people promote my videos as "a foreigner/white person who loves Korea," because I feel like it emphasizes my ethnicity while downplaying the quality/merits of my work. In fact, if being a foreigner IS positive in that context, I'd still rather it not be used that way. I'd rather be me.
p00lman 3 months ago
@tokee1234567 Yes you are called "Asian" but once we know from what country you are from we will call you that. Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc. I understand being called a foreigner to a point. I just feel the word is way overused. I preferred to be called a American because thats what I am. I am proud of being an American as much you are proud of being Korean. In Korea being foreign is NOT a good thing, so it isn't positive. Also the word "Asian" is much more specifc than the word Foreigner.
kwad8 3 months ago
@kwad8 yea. in the US the broader term for an Asian is an "alien," or that's what's on the legal documents.. but at least we aren't called that in our everyday lives...and even if people know I'm Korean I'm mostly referred to as "the Asian." that is from my experience of being one of the minorities in my major lol.
tokee1234567 3 months ago
@tokee1234567 All of my paperwork in Korea call me "Alien" too. Thats nothing special. It is a major change to go from being a majority to being a minority. Since I have never been the majority I have never experienced that. anywhere. The fact they said "the Asian." sounds kinda like a nickname. similar to people calling me "token" since they say "THE asian" it sounds really specific and based on what you said it is a easy yet lazy way to ID you. But i don't have the full story or know the tone
kwad8 3 months ago
I never thought the word could be rude.
cioel90 3 months ago
@cioel90 It's definitely possible.
p00lman 3 months ago
Is this what that Facebook post was about? Interesting video, I think the points you made are the general conclusion that I also reached, but I still don't think there is one straight answer for everyone.
c0rse 3 months ago
really nice video. thanks for this. I agree with you on everything here. How is your korean now btw? are you still studying towards fluency? =)
YangJettYung 3 months ago
@YangJettYung Um . . . ^^;;;;;
p00lman 3 months ago
In my thought, I'd like to say you, you'd better learn more Korean language if you don't like to hear '외국인'. Because Koreans do not fluent in English than you have thought. The meaning of '외국인' in Korean's heart include fear about English. I agree with many points what you said though. Koreans who know real Korean manners do not impose their age to younger person than themselves. I know there are some culture like that in Korea but that is not manner and I can't understand eiter.It’s a shame.
Jej621 3 months ago
@Jej621 WTF? That is nonsense!!!! Not matter how much Korean a 외국인 speaks. no matter how much a 외국인 follows Korean customs. A 외국인 will ALWAYS be a 외국인. Until we can look Korean what we do does not affect how you see us. By your words. 외국인 = fear i.e.(xenophobic) So doesn't that makes 외국인 a negative word? Koreans need to get out of their tiny bubble and learn there is a larger world outside of Seoul....I mean Korea. Koreans need to be careful. Korean culture is starting to hold Korea back.
kwad8 3 months ago
@kwad8 I know what you mean and I already said I'd agreed with 마익흘 in many parts. I just said "include". In my personal opinion, Korea need to go out of jus sanguinis. You know, "우리(we)" is a favorite word in Korea but it takes time because it made for 5000years. BTW I think that to use English is not absolute authority. It's natural to use Korean language and to follow Korean customs in Korea.
Jej621 3 months ago
@Jej621 Yes it takes time to change but it doesn't take THAT long. At the time of Korean independence in 1945 Korea was dirt poor and under a dictatorship. 50 years later Korea had become a developed country and began democracy. Many of Korean cultural and custom changes happened during that time as well. Change/ progress will only happen when people want it to happen.
kwad8 2 months ago
@kwad8 I suppose you're misunderstanding what I told you. I mean Korea has been a single-race nation for 5000years so it takes time for changing social attitudes about 외국인. Of course, it would not to take 5000years for changing.
Jej621 2 months ago
@Jej621 I not misunderstanding. I completely understand what you were saying. I think that is just an excuse.
My point is that social attitudes about 외국인 will change when people want to change. Right now people and government DON'T WANT to change. They are content with how things are. Korean Government policies, Laws and public education are good examples of that.
kwad8 2 months ago
@kwad8 I don't know well about those but If there are some injustice in Korean laws and education, I think Korea and Koreans have to going to change about matters like that. BTW, have you ever tried to understand sentiments of Koreans? I never want to excuse because I think there are no reason to make excuse about it. I just had explained. There are so many people on the earth, so many different people and so many differnt histories.
Jej621 2 months ago
@Jej621 Yes I have tried to understand sentiments of Koreans. It is not that hard understand.
kwad8 2 months ago
@Jej621 Every Korean has an opinion or thought on education, You know more than you want to say. What do you know well. You are right there is no reason to make an excuse about it. BUT you still are. You are right again There many peoples, cultures and histories BUT "You Koreans" don't care about any of them. To "you Koreans" they are all the same they are foreign. "You Koreans" know very little about the outside world and just don't care. Until people start caring nothing will change.
kwad8 2 months ago
@kwad8 What an amazing! You say you know better than me what I know and how I feel. You look like my father who are almost 80years old. O.K. You win! Koreans will never be changed. Are you satisfied, now? I never wanted to have an argument about it from the first. I never denied what 마익흘 said , I just said it need time. But Ok. You're right in everything. Let's stop here.
Jej621 2 months ago
@Jej621 LOL. You didn't get my point. I am not saying I know what you feel. But I am seeing you are feeling something but are hiding it. I didn't know we were arguing. I thought we were just have a friendly discussion. Don't give up now. this is interesting. I can't have this kind of discussion with most koreans. You are special in that regard.
kwad8 2 months ago
Well said. I take it this is a kind of response to the ongoing K-blog debate?
onceatraveler 3 months ago
@onceatraveler As far as I know, this has always been an ongoing debate. I don't really follow K-blogs, though.
p00lman 3 months ago
good point
Desi1204 3 months ago
Comment removed
lycos888 3 months ago