BBC - Jonathan Ross - In Search of Steve Ditko, part 4 of 7

[MrLunitunz]

Ditko has a hint of Russian in his accent.

[HCShannon]

Charlton's characters were later bought by DC in the 80s and The Question was the inspiration for Rorschach in Watchmen! Actually most the main characters in Watchmen are based on Charlton heroes!

[dustygrady]

It says a lot for Romita that Spider Man became even more popular than ever once Ditko left. Ditko left with a giant thud, and Mighty Marvel moved on without him quite successfully without ever missing a beat

I found Ditko's art to be sloppy and childish looking, and it was a blessing that he moved out of Romita's way, who was the Norman Rockwell of Spider Man covers. Romita was also able to give interviews, while Ditko remained a painful recluse who avoided outside contact at all costs.

[davenielsen78]

I feel the same as Alan Moore on this, I have no interest in Spider-Man after the Ditko issues. I bought the Amazing Spider-Man Omnibus because it contains those 38 issues so I have it all in one volume.

[XxLuv191xX]

Ayn Rand took social security and welfare money when she was dying of cancer under her real name of "Ann O'Connor." She was not a wealthy woman. This is true. There is proof.

[theabominationuknow]

This documentary is all well and good but is still does not answer the question that all of us want to know. Who would win in a fight between the Question and Mr.A? Lol! 

[YaoiHuntressEarth]

In a way, you could easily make Mr. A a villain. A well-meaning yet single-minded man who is a tyrant that punishes people for the littlest things.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@YaoiHuntressEarth : He's borderline fascist, much like Judge Dredd...

[YaoiHuntressEarth]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Ouch. Though I will give Ditko credit for not going into the misogyny and/or rape obsession I've seen some objectivist writers fall into (at least from what I've seen of the man.) If you've ever come across Terry Goodkind or Jay Naylor, you'll know what I mean.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@YaoiHuntressEarth : Exactly... probably because it's out of his realm of experience...

[YaoiHuntressEarth]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 And glad he's never attempted to write it.

[Elementa2006]

@YaoiHuntressEarth I have a friend who hates Terry Goodkind's work with a passion, never read the books myself but I did see several episodes of the tv adaptation, Legend of the Seeker. How faithful was that show to the books?

[YaoiHuntressEarth]

@Elementa2006 I haven't really watched the show, but the books can get really creepy in a bad way and poorly thought out.

[HeatLegs]

Wow, I never heard of Mr. A. I gotta check it out. :O

[ToruKun1]

Even though Ayn Rand STINKS, I love Mr. A!!! XD

[WireMosasaur]

"..more into the realm of, just, sheer beautiful, wonderful, straight-from-the-heart American barking madness."

Gaiman wins.

[lakeviewviking]

@WireMosasaur Cheap shot at America-stop ripping off an American art form, Gaiman.

[WireMosasaur]

@lakeviewviking Are you kidding? That was no cheap shot, that was an artistic compliment! Anyone who's read American Gods knows how much he loves that country for what it is and creates, as do I. :3

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

It's too bad Ditko fell under the sway of Rand... she was truly a hateful person.

[SpectralViral]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 she had some interesting ideas though. At least I think.

[dontleademsomuch]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 wrong. i love her philosophy. total reason and individualism win out.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@dontleademsomuch : Yeah, Ditko is really living the life,isn't he?

[dontleademsomuch]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 it's all about personal happiness and i think he's content enough. he left marvel voluntarily.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@dontleademsomuch : See, I'd disagree... to me, he seems like a very unhappy person. He squandered so much of his talent and made pretty insane business choices. I recommend you read Blake Bell's book "Strange and Stranger: The World of Steve Ditko" to see how his slavish adherence to Objectivism corroded his creativity. Personally, I love Ditko's great work, there should just be more of it...

[YaoiHuntressEarth]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I like the freaky art style he has in Mr. A, but I agree.

[YaoiHuntressEarth]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 And sadly, I've seen her beliefs turn people into douchebags.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@YaoiHuntressEarth : Also, after reading a ton of articles and books on him, I've never once seen a wife/girlfriend ever mentioned... it's possible he's a virgin, which might possibly add to his dementia...

[666948]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Ditko has one son, according to Will Eisner.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@666948 : Really!?!? Where did he say that?

[666948]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 somewhere in the book Eisner/Miller. The one on one discussion between Eisner and Frank Miller.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@666948 : I remember that book... I took a pass on it when it came out, but now I should hunt it down. Although, I should state that could only be speculation on Eisner's part, as they never worked together. Still, I'd be interested in the story...

[Mathadar]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 hey... why does everyone always call her a hateful person? I still don't get that. I have read all of her work, interviews, etc. What do I need to read or who do I need to hear from to get this "hateful person" lurking behind her friendly demeanour.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@Mathadar : It's her philosophy that's hateful... I'm sure she was quite friendly when glad-handing or shilling for objectivism. However, Objectivism denies altruism. You can't get much more hateful than that.

[Mathadar]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I thought one of the things about Objectivism is that you can selfishly choose to help others over yourself... therefore that does not remove altruism from a possibility. I think its an unwise person who would reject the desire to help others as helping others IS in your best interest if your of religious persuasion or just want others to be treated as you would treat yourself. After all multiple stories relate to "treating others as yourself" in Atlas Shrugged...

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@Mathadar : I have to admit I haven't read "Atlas Shrugged" in years, but what you're describing is the polar opposite of everything else I've read on Rand... one of the things her movement was most against was "mysticism" or religion. Reason was the be all and end all for her... reason, as she determined. The whole "black and white, no grey" is a rather hard, cold way to look at things as well... and it's not very realistic. I've never seen her advocate selfishly helping others, either...

[Mathadar]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I see what your getting on about. I guess its the ideas of a purely "black and white, no grey" that I enjoy. Its purely fiction of course, as there are too many layers of grey in real life to have just a "black and white". I have never seen her advocate selfishly helping others except when she stated she "selfishly gave presents to her husband". I don't follow objectivism myself, but I do try to understand its principles, like any philosophy. I am a Libertarian.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@Mathadar : Ah... well, any system (religion, politics, philosophies, etc...) devised by man is ultimately prone to corruption, I suppose. In that light, Objectivism is no better than any other. But Ditko's blind adherence borders on insanity...

[Mathadar]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I completely agree, especially since he basically retired at his prime. He took the John Galt method of refusing to share his genius with a world where his genius isn't rewarded. Except that in the novels the "characters" attempted to gain attention AND demand reward, Steve Ditko doesn't really care about any of that. Merely keeping himself as pretty much a shut in.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@Mathadar : For sure... I'd love to read a career-spanning interview with Ditko, a la Comics Journal, but the guy simply won't do it... have you read any of his self-published stuff he's done over the last 10-15 years? Very strange, bizarre stuff!! This is where you can really see how damaged he's become after swallowing all that Objectivism stuff. If you haven't, you should get the Ditko book by Blake Bell "Strange and Stranger"... it's really informative and well done...

[Mathadar]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Thanks I'll check it out. I didn't know about much of his recent self-published stuff. I am more of a fan of his old comics, back when he drew and Stan Lee narrated.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@Mathadar : Well, his recent stuff is hard to find, anyway... but, just for the sake of seeing how truly demented he's become, you should check it out if you get a chance... "The Ditko Public Service Package" is truly bizarre. Very hard to read, but entertaining at the same time, if that's possible. Lucky for us that so much of his stuff is coming back into print... All the Spidey/Dr Strange, several volumes of 50s-60s mystery stuff, DC stuff, etc...

[Elementa2006]

@Mathadar The thing is that the world's being a shade of grey is what made Marvel unique from the competition DC Comics at the time and gave it its own identity.

[Mathadar]

@Elementa2006 Absolutely, and the reason I love marvel so much more than DC. Its unique.

[HCShannon]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Well, look at Neil Peart, the greatest drummer on Earth, also a Randroid!

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@HCShannon : Who comes off as a jerk in that documentary... but, that's beside the point. No, the problem isn't only a bad message, but the receiver is faulty as well... Ditko is a well-known crank and loner. Although this is what probably made him such a great artist, this made life difficult for him, and he made some poor choices...

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Im sure your familiar with her work.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@kraigus : Rand's? Well, I'm not an expert, but I've read "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead" in addition to "The Virtue of Selfishness", which, if the title didn't tip you off, lays out her deplorable philosophy...

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 you clearly didnt read the book. The virtue of selfishness deals with the positive benefits of staying true to your own values, the point being to adopt rational values that dont inhibit on others. something ditko clearly expresses through his randian "heroes"

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@kraigus : Oh, I read it, I read the WHOLE thing... the part I disagree with is the rejection of altruism and seeing the world in only black and white. You can sugarcoat it any way you want to, but Rand was a hateful woman. Altruism (along with creativity) is what separates man from the rest of the animal kingdom. "Staying true to your own values" is a nice way to say "Fuck you, jack, I got mine" and that's a self-centered philosophy. Adhering to such claptrap ruined Ditko's career...

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Because ditkos career would have went so well playing second fiddle to stan lee,having what was rightfully his taken from him for money, its about his integrity. something dito can atleast still say he has. staying true to your own morals doesnt mean I GOT MINE, by your definition ditko would be the millionaire. it means stating your true objectives, and sticking with them not buckling for anothers whim, it doesnt mean ruthlessly crushing others.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@kraigus : Well, you can define it that way, I suppose, but it rarely seems to come out that way... most of the time, particularly when referring to Rand and Objectivism. The whole argument of "staying true to your morals" is a smokescreen to justify selfish behavior. This is certainly what Rand believed. Ditko is a strange case... certainly, he was the major creative force in Spidey, and Lee sure took more credit than he deserved. However, Ditko never recovered creatively, and became more...

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 ...cantankerous with each company he worked for. Integrity and morals are certainly important, but when you refuse to budge in any circumstance, you become a pariah. And this is exactly what Ditko did... he became so enamored with telling people what was right and wrong, he forgot what his main objective was as a cartoonist... to entertain, to tell stories. And, let's face it, Ditko should have had a career like Kirby's, with a wealth of great stuff... instead, Ditko's...

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 ... key stuff is only a handful of comics. Ditko was (and is) mentally unbalanced. When combined with a philosophy that celebrates self-centered thinking, you ultimately get what amounts to a tragic situation... a career that should have stood head and shoulders above most others. Instead, Ditko is viewed as an anomaly... a crank who was only briefly a top cartoonist. He deserved better.

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I agree with the flawed genius, but to dwell on what might of been is easy with hindsight, to ditko clearly stating what he wanted was more imortant, and in itself is more imortant, than saying he should have done more for people, takes it the other way, he didnt have to do anything for anyone, is artwork was personal and you feel that in his work, that makes it better in my opinion atleast.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@kraigus : But making an entertaining story with his beliefs would have only helped his viewpoint in the long run. The Mr. A stories start off well, but, over time, they descend into preaching. I agree that a personal touch in any artform is better, more interesting that just "going thru the motions", but a true artist can achieve a balance... personal and entertaining. This is where Ditko failed. Personally, I'm interested in anything Ditko did/does... but there's no way to ignore the fact...

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 ... that his work became less and less readable in ensuing years. Have you read "Strange and Stranger: The World of Steve Ditko"? It's a great book, and clearly outlines his failings as an artist, which coincide with his increasingly blind worship of Rand and her philosophies... it's interesting and sad at the same time.

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I have read it, but i took that its other peoples views, seeing as how failing ditko is to do interviews or publically comment, short of a few zines and personal publications, its not how he feels, its only fair to say that ditkos niche is what he wants to do. and from his experiences he chose so. Its not fair to say he's wrong/ or that he's failed, he's only failed in a commercial/other peoples expectational sense!

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 the balance is only between success(monetary renumeration) and purity(entirely passion based, where as intention is devoid entirely of renumeration.) think of it this way, its hard to theorise a person creating art entirely for that sake, rather than to gain any benefit bar personal vision. but to ditko clearly no line was possible, its not a failing, its falling short of others expectations, ditko did what he expected of himself, and clearly "succeded".

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@kraigus : But look at an artist like R Crumb... he never had a commercial intention in his life, yet he's able to create work that expresses his view without alienating the reader. This is where Ditko fails, IMO. Although I dislike his philosophies, I would most certainly read whatever he wrote. Unfortunately, so much of his work is bogged down in jargon and a disregard for clarity and storytelling. His comics over the past 20 years have been so abstract that his point gets lost in the...

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 ... translation, and that's where he fails as an artist. It's obvious he has a point to get across, but his point is usually handled so ineptly that it never grasps an audience. Without some sort of audience, a point is null and void. Much like Ditko's career. IMO, Ditko is in the top 3 cartoonists who worked in mainstream comic books. He is only a hair behind Kirby as far as what can be done in so confining a genre as super heroes... he certainly should be celebrated by...

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 ... cartooning aficionados everywhere, yet he's only remembered by most as the guy who started Spidey. His stubborn adherence to archaic views (and disregard to other viewpoints) have not only left him a pariah, but living in squalor. Comics' fans are poorer because of his choices, and so are historians. It's sad that he's such a bitter crank that he refuses to contribute to the history of cartooning. His input would be greatly appreciated.

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I agree on most points, its just stating the commercial success point, i dont think he cares about mney, if he did, surely his marvel endeavours legally would yield money, he wanted his name on the character of spiderman not a hand in lees pocket! tampering with the jargon aspect dilutes it though, i understand to ceep clarity ideall he needs to tone it down, but for me i appreciate his voice. I dont need it censored!

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@kraigus : Agreed... I don't think he should compromise the CONTENT of his work for money, but it's his storytelling that has went off the deep end. His drawing is still good, and there are instances where he is working within the confides of comics perfectly. If he feels that his message is important enough to be heard, he should make it to where people will be willing to hear it...

[kraigus]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 i can agree with thtat point, if he was so ferverant than why stay on the fringes, i am a little perplexed by ditko, but nonetheless its part of his story, and id dideally see him conventionaly regarded as high as kirby!

[MrLunitunz]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Not necessarily hateful, just redundant.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@MrLunitunz : Um, excuse me?

[MrLunitunz]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 She argues that human beings should be more self-centred and pursue their own ends without helping other people achieve theirs, right?

Well that's redundant. People are naturally self-centred. What you should teach them, if anything, is to be less so.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@MrLunitunz : So, basically, she preached against altruism. The one trait (besides the creation of art) that truly separates mankind from other animals. That is hateful.

[MrLunitunz]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Altruism doesn't separate mankind from other animals. Animals are perfectly capable of being altruistic, blood altruism for example.

I don't know enough about objectivism to declare whether or not it's hateful but anything preaching the needs of the self over the needs of others can only be described as redundant. Ayn Rand is thus, redundant.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@MrLunitunz : Altruism requires the ability to reason... it is a choice. I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage... "blood altruism"? Google turned up nothing, neither did Webster's. And as far as Objectivism being redundant... well, maybe so. I can live with that before attempting to suppress altruism or championing self-centeredness.

[MrLunitunz]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 I'm at a loss for more reputable sources, but look up Altruism in animals on Wikipedia, there are at least several examples which disprove that you need to be able to 'reason' to be altruistic.

As for Blood altruism, it may not be the scientifically correct term. Look up the Selfish Gene Theory. Basically animals will protect family members at a cost to themselves to ensure that their genes get passed on.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@MrLunitunz : Almost every example listed has to be qualified... meaning, pack/family members don't really count. The most convincing argument is dogs adopting other species... and dogs are domesticated, trained by man.

[MrLunitunz]

@DeepSouthWrestling1 Dogs are trained by man, yes. But they don't think like men, they're dogs. I think the dogs are the most convincing argument that Altruism isn't an intriniscally human value, and not something that requires 'reason'.

[DeepSouthWrestling1]

@MrLunitunz : That figures...

[norristerse]

@DeepSouthWrestling1

dogs are capable of altruism. it's just that they don't have a word for it.

[Zornik3678]

Thx a lot for this amazing docu...i watch all the parts in one go.