without a doubt this was not a fight but a personal war.. graziano had a murderous right hand but zale was without a doubt a relentless body puncher ! I beg to differ with anyone that puts ray leonard or barkley in his class. and to compare ray mancini with tony zale questions the issue of mental health. zale lost four years in the navy and had graziano by ten years... zale would be right up there with anyone in the middleweights...
Tony Zale was a great fighter in my eyes would have love to see him and sugar ray robinson fight. Graziano was one of those guys kinda like Iran Barkley. You had to watch for the power early but power was all they had and if they didnt catch you early or they fought a top notch boxer with skill and power they lost. But they were still very fun fighters to watch. Kinda like a young mancini he was whooping everyone until he got in there with a legend Alexis Arguello who had skill and power.
For those who want to diss Graziano and say that he was not in Zale's class, may I remind you that he TKO'd Zale in their 2nd fight, and was kicking Zale's ass before Zale KOed him with a paralyzing body punch in their first fight.
this was not a fight, it was a personal war between two very very tough fighters with a will to win that one does not see in very many of today's "fighters".. mentally tough,hardened by the times,guys like this gave no quarter and asked none. zale was 4 yrs out of the game and 10 years older than graziano and one of boxing's most terrific body bangers..he took out your heart with every shot that you can make book on..
@genovegas7 watch the 1st fight.. i think. graziano hits zale about 6 or 7 times right on the button. graizano smells blood. he goes wild. he has zale staggering. but zale hits him with the straightest hardest left jab you ever saw.. graziano backed up about 4 steps, shook his head & said "whoa!! wait a minute!!"
I really like Zale's style, even though he leaves himself open alot (look at some of his jabs in the first round). He does have a fantastic body attack though, whatta knockout!
I talked to a guy in cincinnatti who watched this fight and the second fight as well and he attested to Rockys power, hey 52 ko's, thats a feat.He actually rallied off a few more big wins after this fight. Zale is one of my favorites. he really was a " man of steel " and was a devastating body puncher. He , like Marvin Hagler, would do well in any era. This fight was revenge for Zale. The other graziano fights were savage , give and take battles.
Tony Zale, my "Uncle Tony" - my gran uncle, taught us kids in my Granpa's basement to "jab-jab-hook". Left jabs to the face, and a body punch to the solar plexus.
The rock won his title with one big punch kind of like Iran Barkley beating Hearns. I'm not saying it was lucky just that his chin would not have held up against Zale's power over 15 rounds.
@TheGreatA Yep - Graziano was a wide open brawler with poor defense. But he could hit and had a decent chin. He had to have a decent chin, because he got hit with everything but the kitchen sink by a guy who could punch. But he was no Jake Lamotta.
@shire2005 keep in mind that its known that he's thrown several fights. he appearantly had ties with some shady characters or so ive learned and he threw a few fights that he was favoured to win. thats how the mob made money, when a fighter would take a dive but the fighter had to be favoured to win or it wouldnt be worth it in the winnings.
@BigMDS67 Harry Greb would"ve beaten Zale, Graziano & La Motta. The best middleweight of all time, & only man to beat Heavyweight Champion Gene Tunney.
I'm clueless? All Graciano threw was hooks. He had little of anything that looked like a jab. He was not even competitive in this fight and was easily beaten by Sugar Ray.
@shire2005 Graciano threw hooks and over-hand rights and uppercuts. Like many great fighters and champions. Since when does a great fighter have to posess a jab? This fight is only one fight. Whether or not it was competitive has little bearing on his abilites as a fighter. SRR said that Rock hit him the hardest he ever got hit and that "...had the punch that dropped me hit my chin instead of my neck...well...I'm afraid I wouldn't have gotten back up. He was an inch away.". --Sugar Ray Robinson.
@TheChoice264 I think Graziano is kinda overrated. He didn't seem to know how to tie a fighter up, and he didn't have a great jab. He also didn't know how to take a punch. He's an all time great, because of the excitement that he brought into a fight. He always came to fight, and he was flawed. That's what made him great.
But I think any fighter with boxing skill, could of beaten Graziano in any era.
Pour moi Tony Zale reste le plus puissant cogneur de l'histoire des poids moyen en plus d'avoir une très bonne résistance... peu de finesse mais tout de même ce qu'il faut pour être champion du monde à plusieurs reprise.
I heard lamotta and graziano wouldn't fight each other. any truth to that? And why didn't lamotta fight zale? He was in his prime when Zale was champ.
Zale elected to give Graziano a title shot instead of LaMotta. Graziano and LaMotta signed to fight each other but Graziano broke his hand during training.
I saw a graziano- zale interview [I believe during this fight footage] and Rocky asked Zale why he never fought Ray Robinson... Graziano told him he thought Tony would have beaten Sugar Ray. Any thoughts? great footage thanks
I couldn't agree with that. LaMotta could match Zale for toughness, but not for power. TKO win for Zale in the second half of the fight would be where my money would.
Graziano punched twice as hard as LaMotta, one of the hardest of alltime, no way could Jake dent Zale"s chin, Ray Robinson said Rocky hit him hardest in his career. 52ko"s from 67 wins, Graziano had dynamite in his hands!
Graziano was not in LaMotta's class, not to mention he was smaller. In fact if they were fighting today, LaMotta would be a super middleweight while Graziano would be a welter/light middle.
Most of the opponents Graziano punched out were welterweights and he was usually losing until finding the big punch.
LaMotta was much, much stronger than Graziano and would have been too much for post-World War II Zale. Don't forget that Cerdan handled Zale, while LaMotta handled Cerdan.
And Robinson said the hardest hitter he fought was Artie Levine with Graziano next to him during The Way It Was program (which can be seen on youtube). The toughest and strongest he ever fought? Robinson said it was LaMotta without a doubt.
I'd agree with what you say here except I think it would be a points win for Zale. Although Robinson stopped LaMotta once it was the exception to the general rule. LaMotta was unbelievably durable which makes me think he would probably last the distance but he'd be in a terrible state at the final bell.
i think zale is an awsome fighter his power wood stop a glen johnson or bernard hokins no dout theres nota puncher as hard as him in middle weight robinson had the sharp punches and great movement but as a knockout artist i think zale was number 1 him and robinson wood b the best fight in middle weight history mayb both in there primes could b the best of all weights
What strikes me straight away here is how much bigger Zale looks, you'd think there was a full weight class between them. Zale looks like a full blown m/wight, Graziano looks like a blown up welter.
Graziano actually was a blown up welter, or more appropriately a junior middleweight. He usually weighed around 154 pounds while Zale usually came in at the limit of 160 lbs and at times over the limit.
In this particular fight both weighed 158 pounds but in truth Zale was the bigger man.
Lots of casual boxing fans say that boxers nowadays are more skilled, but not everything improves with age. Zale here gives a masterclass, including a few lessons on body punching...It's a shame that the increased significance of amateur boxing experience to promoters in selecting & grooming future champions has steadily eroded boxing techniques. Nowadays you don't see much infighting, body punching, or upper body defensive techniques due to the stupid Olympic amateur boxing rules.
Tony Zale was my trainer's trainer..Zale's right hand to the heart is a tough punch to master but will get guys to stop throwing their jab.I wish there was more footage on him and not just fights at the end of his career..Masterful boxer he was..
Brutality at it's best. This is when boxing was like watching a UFC match.
Both knockdowns ( the later the KO) where almost identical.
In the first one, it was probably the body shot that did th most damage. When he tries to get up notice how Graziano has to drag himself because his legs are paralyze from the wicked body shot 6:44.
For the KO combination, the left hook to the head didn't seem all that hard 7:35though he did get extreme leverage for the body blow that set him up.
Im pretty sure in every knockdown the punch that did the most damage was the left hook to the head, the right to the body definitely sets it up in the third round, but the hooks at 6:21 and 6:40 is the reason he gets up on such unsteady legs. The punch at 7:03 doesnt look like it has much leverage on it, but it landed flush on the chin combined with the fact he was still hurt from punch at 6:21 and all the follow up powerhouse hooks Zale landed on him. In total i think there was about 7 :)
Yes, the left hook certainly did damage. But look a Graziano at around 7:25. Hard to say if that's from the body or head head shot.
In either case , I bet Zale could have KO'd Graziano even if he forgoes the head altogether . The body shots he lands go clear thorugh my computer screen !!
Could be a combination? he has a very Ken Norton/Rocky Marciano stance and when he gets into it around 7:25 it looks like hes weary. Could be the body shot, being stunned from the head shot or maybe both? He sure looks spent though, Zale really worked him over in this bout. The opening hook that scores the first knock down reminds me of Floyd Patterson :)
.Almost impossible to say if he's rubbery legged from the hook or the body blow. Both shots by Zale where landed with the precise accuracy, and devastation to boot. Whether head or body shot, they both spelled doom for Graziano.
@6400az Zale's main power was as a body puncher. We learned the word's solar plexus from him when we were kids and he showed us the 'jab-jab-hook (to the body) combo
Hey man I love these two fighters but remember the Bronx Bull fought Marcel Cerdan who beat Tony Zale. Marcel Cerdan was a great boxer all these guys are.
True but Cerdan retired with a shoulder injury against LaMotta. He wasn't KO'd or outpointed. Also Zale was in his late 30's when he fought Cerdan and was at the end of a very hard career.
Zale was 34, 2 years older than Marcel Cerdan. The fight happened only 3 months after Zale dispatched Graziano in one of his best ever performances as can be seen here.
I'd say that Cerdan and LaMotta were just higher calibre fighters than Zale or Graziano were at this point.
I make no criticism of Cerdan. He was tough, hit pretty hard and was probably the best technical boxer out of this 4. But there's a big difference between a 34 year old Zale who'd originally won the tile (or the NBA version) 7 years earlier, and was at the very end of his career - and a 32 year old Cerdan who is hungry and getting his first big shot at the crown.Yes Zale did well here against Graziano but that's more to do with styles than it is an indicator of Zales condition at this point.
I don't regard LaMotta as being an all time great but I think at his peak he would only have been beaten by fighters that were. He was one of the toughest ever in the division and physically very strong but he wasn't a big hitter- by far the weakest puncher out of these 4 and his reach was very short.
Zale was also very tough so there's no way Jake would have KO'd him. In fact LaMotta's style was perfect for Zale. Jake probably would have gone the distance but he would be in a mess at the end
I'd say he was a great. He was the only one to beat a prime Robinson and gave him a tough time everytime. He beat Holman Williams (who Zale never wanted to fight), Marcel Cerdan, Fritzie Zivic when he was still inexperienced. He fought 106 times and rarely against anyone who wasn't ranked in the top 10.
It's a stretch to say he beat a prime Robinson. SRR had only been a pro for two and a half years at the time and LaMotta outweighed him by 16lbs. In today's terms SRR was 2lbs under the welter limit while JLM was slightly over the middleweight limit.
In fact JLM outweighed SRR every time they fought. The one time their weights were close was the MWT title fight and SRR TKO'd him.
JLM also outweighed Zivic every time they fought and FR already had 170+ fights by then so he was hardly fresh.
Robinson was a phenom. He was 40-0 at the time and had beaten the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Marty Servo, Sammy Angott.
His loss to LaMotta was one of the greatest upsets of all time despite Robinson being outweighed. Robinson had beaten all the other middleweights who outweighed him.
Jake was weight-drained for their 6th fight which even Robinson admitted during the Way It Was program.
In 1945, right at Robinson's peak, he went to a controversial split decision with LaMotta.
"Robinson had beaten all the other middleweights who outweighed him"
Actually Robinson had not fought any middleweights other than LaMotta at that point of his career.
The LaMotta win in 1942 was an upset but not one of greatest of all time - that's a hindsight view of it. SRR had been a pro for 2.5 years, hadn't yet even fought for a title and lost a close decision to a good middleweight who outweighed him by 16lbs.
That's not exactly Ali -Foreman or Douglas Tyson territory.
Most observers felt the fights against LaMotta were among Zivic's best performances. Straight forward pressure fighters always suited Zivic and LaMotta at 21 years of age was clearly at a disadvantage in experience.
Graziano weighed 154 to Zale's 160 when he knocked Zale out.
Again though - LaMotta outweighed Zivic every time, including by over 6lbs the time Zivic beat him in July '43.
.
To me (and it's only my opinion) LaMotta's most impressive win was not against Zivic or Robinson, where he had all the advantages. It was his KO of the up and coming future heavyweight bomber Bob Satterfield in 1946.
More then often being over the wt. limit can slow a boxer down. You can't go by poundage. Some Boxers excell heavier but that's the lesser of the rule in carrying more weight.
It's a complex issue and it's not the same for every fighter. There are a number of factors at play and it's the mix that produces the variable outcomes.
.
As a general rule though I'd say that the critical factor is a boxers natural fighting weight and how close to it the division limit that he's fighting in is.A natural 155lber fighting at 147lbs will always have problems and they'll worsten with age because your natural fighting weight tends to go up not down over time. 1/2
For example: LaMotta had been a natural middleweight all his career and by the time he got a title shot his natural fighting weight was more like 165 - 170lbs. Add to this the fact his walking around weight between fights was sometimes a high as 200lbs and factor in the increased difficulty (mentally and physically) of cutting a lot of weight as you get older and Jake was always going to have a fairlyshort (although exciting) reign as the 160lb champ.
Very true..as you age with training bone density alone will put weight on. However staying away from the fridge can keep a boxer in his weight class. The other factor with age is metabolism, It does slow down so it takes more effort to keep wt. off. However boxers are usually in the late 30's in their carrers and metabolism is still good. I've trained in Martial Arts and also Bodybuilding which requires a lot of desciplin on food intake. So I know the pitfalls. It's hard.
He had enough punching power to hurt most fighters he fought. People look at his knockout record and percentage but that doesn't tell the whole story. The man only fought top ranked contenders. Punchers usually look good until they step up in competition, then the numbers start to drop.
He was also a lot more savvy than Zale who stood upright and absorbed punches mostly on the chin, while Jake used clever head movement and rolled with the punches he took. On the inside he would manhandle Zale.
@AKAKArnott i think lamotta was som1 who fort gd against skillfull jabbers but not as much punchers becus he had the agression 2 stop the jabs and make them fight his fight
Yes but people are talking as if this Zale would slaughter LaMotta. That's not going to happen. If anything would happen it would be the complete opposite. Cerdan vs Zale was a terrible mismatch and a brutal beating. LaMotta did more damage to Cerdan in the first round before the supposed injury than Zale did in the whole fight.
And Zale at his best was hardly untouchable. Avoided black Nate Bolden beat him, Billy Soose beat him (see it on youtube) beat him. He was knocked down many times.
Imagine had Zale fought the likes of LaMotta, Burley, Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall throughout his reign, instead of Graziano 3 times. He wouldn't have stayed champ for very long.
@AKAKArnott Cerdan fought on till the tenth round after getting injured in the first round which makes him one tough son of a bitch. And he was on his way to a rematch when his plane crashed killing him. I really think Cerdan would have given LaMotta one hell of a rematch if they had fought again.
I agree. In fact I think that Cerdan would have won the rematch.
A fight between these two would have been close at any time in their careers but I think that with the problems that LaMotta was having in making 160lbs , Cerdan would have edged him out and taken a 15 round decision in the rematch.
i think so to lamotta wood have to take alot of punishment if it was to go the distance i think and zale wood mayb have to avoid stayin close to lamotta or he could get knocked out in the early rounds after about 6 7 rounds i think lamottas harder punches will b gone and zale will blok more shots
Heh I didnt know he was Mexican. With a name like Lopez. Heh I'm just fuckin with ya. Congratz if he really is. Im a big fan of the Middle Weight division at this time. They were warriors. So do you have any autographed memorabilia? I have an autographed picture of Jake Lamotta that he sent me himself. I got it on my videos under tour of my room.
well he's polish. his real last name is Zalinski. my grandfather is spanish and my grandmother, (his niece) is polish. i have some memorobilia. none personally autographed as he died before i was born. I could probably come by some if i felt obligated.
The fight should have been stopped after that knockdown in the 3rd round. He could barely stand up and without the ropes he wouldn't have been able to stand at all.
what a brutal brawl
middleastboxer21 3 months ago
without a doubt this was not a fight but a personal war.. graziano had a murderous right hand but zale was without a doubt a relentless body puncher ! I beg to differ with anyone that puts ray leonard or barkley in his class. and to compare ray mancini with tony zale questions the issue of mental health. zale lost four years in the navy and had graziano by ten years... zale would be right up there with anyone in the middleweights...
genovegas7 3 months ago
graziano was a harder puncher then zale but zale had the better chin
toby099 4 months ago
Tony Zale was a great fighter in my eyes would have love to see him and sugar ray robinson fight. Graziano was one of those guys kinda like Iran Barkley. You had to watch for the power early but power was all they had and if they didnt catch you early or they fought a top notch boxer with skill and power they lost. But they were still very fun fighters to watch. Kinda like a young mancini he was whooping everyone until he got in there with a legend Alexis Arguello who had skill and power.
Arkboxing 6 months ago
he was Polish
nieznanyism 10 months ago
For those who want to diss Graziano and say that he was not in Zale's class, may I remind you that he TKO'd Zale in their 2nd fight, and was kicking Zale's ass before Zale KOed him with a paralyzing body punch in their first fight.
ForeverYoung58 11 months ago
@ForeverYoung58 True.
TheChoice264 10 months ago
Brave Referee for letting the bout continue before the KO ?
philndave 1 year ago
Comment removed
TheLagunaSunrise 1 year ago
this was not a fight, it was a personal war between two very very tough fighters with a will to win that one does not see in very many of today's "fighters".. mentally tough,hardened by the times,guys like this gave no quarter and asked none. zale was 4 yrs out of the game and 10 years older than graziano and one of boxing's most terrific body bangers..he took out your heart with every shot that you can make book on..
joe genovese
k9pally@yahoo.com
ohio
genovegas7 1 year ago
@genovegas7 watch the 1st fight.. i think. graziano hits zale about 6 or 7 times right on the button. graizano smells blood. he goes wild. he has zale staggering. but zale hits him with the straightest hardest left jab you ever saw.. graziano backed up about 4 steps, shook his head & said "whoa!! wait a minute!!"
kingcoach13 3 months ago
Zale was a phenomenal body puncher! You just don't see that kind of body punching skill in the game today.
bodyshotkid 1 year ago
theirs a ghost..look at 1:00 thats crazy it flies across or im just trippin
chino2517 1 year ago
I really like Zale's style, even though he leaves himself open alot (look at some of his jabs in the first round). He does have a fantastic body attack though, whatta knockout!
cet0708 1 year ago
A Jake Lamotta-Rocky Graziano fight would have been a war.
BigMDS67 1 year ago
my god the comentator said '''graciano is only 36'' wow today if they r not retired ,they r looking to....W
wiporaphell 1 year ago
I talked to a guy in cincinnatti who watched this fight and the second fight as well and he attested to Rockys power, hey 52 ko's, thats a feat.He actually rallied off a few more big wins after this fight. Zale is one of my favorites. he really was a " man of steel " and was a devastating body puncher. He , like Marvin Hagler, would do well in any era. This fight was revenge for Zale. The other graziano fights were savage , give and take battles.
boxerrick42 1 year ago
Graziano definitely had a good chin, but his boxing skills were minimal, really. Just a wild swinger..
Boxingbear 1 year ago
If Zale were here today and boxing no man who whip him
gamehound83 1 year ago
@gamehound83 --->
Tony Zale, my "Uncle Tony" - my gran uncle, taught us kids in my Granpa's basement to "jab-jab-hook". Left jabs to the face, and a body punch to the solar plexus.
kudabinalgila 1 year ago
@kudabinalgila If you did know him you are one lucky man.
Like I said no middle weight would whip him
gamehound83 1 year ago
what year is this can anyone tell me?
WalterRodriguez93 1 year ago
why didnt the ref count Graziano out after the 1st Knockdown in round 3 lol he could barely stand up
SteppinNZ 1 year ago
this is one of the best fight of all time
grazcoolguy 1 year ago
Graziano has to be the most over rated middleweight champ ever. A guy who just goes for broke throwing hooks but didn't have a chin.
Several other fighters of that era would have owned him if he had fought them.
shire2005 2 years ago
Pretty much agree, although he did have a good chin. Otherwise he wouldn't have been a champ.
TheGreatA 2 years ago 2
@TheGreatA
The rock won his title with one big punch kind of like Iran Barkley beating Hearns. I'm not saying it was lucky just that his chin would not have held up against Zale's power over 15 rounds.
shire2005 1 year ago
@TheGreatA Yep - Graziano was a wide open brawler with poor defense. But he could hit and had a decent chin. He had to have a decent chin, because he got hit with everything but the kitchen sink by a guy who could punch. But he was no Jake Lamotta.
MADMAC572 5 months ago
@shire2005 keep in mind that its known that he's thrown several fights. he appearantly had ties with some shady characters or so ive learned and he threw a few fights that he was favoured to win. thats how the mob made money, when a fighter would take a dive but the fighter had to be favoured to win or it wouldnt be worth it in the winnings.
dirtyjew1974 1 year ago
@shire2005 i agreed he had a suspect chin ,zale just touch him and he went down ....W
wiporaphell 1 year ago
@shire2005 Jake Lamotta would have kicked both their a&&es
BigMDS67 1 year ago
@BigMDS67 Harry Greb would"ve beaten Zale, Graziano & La Motta. The best middleweight of all time, & only man to beat Heavyweight Champion Gene Tunney.
dan32113 1 year ago
@dan32113 Maybe...maybe not.
TheChoice264 10 months ago
@shire2005 is totally incompetent in the fundamentals of boxing.
Graziano was a right hand puncher---not a hooker.
The internet is the home of the clueless--like shire.
marcxopoco 1 year ago
@marcxopoco
I'm clueless? All Graciano threw was hooks. He had little of anything that looked like a jab. He was not even competitive in this fight and was easily beaten by Sugar Ray.
FYI you are an idiot..
shire2005 1 year ago
@shire2005 Graciano threw hooks and over-hand rights and uppercuts. Like many great fighters and champions. Since when does a great fighter have to posess a jab? This fight is only one fight. Whether or not it was competitive has little bearing on his abilites as a fighter. SRR said that Rock hit him the hardest he ever got hit and that "...had the punch that dropped me hit my chin instead of my neck...well...I'm afraid I wouldn't have gotten back up. He was an inch away.". --Sugar Ray Robinson.
TheChoice264 10 months ago
@TheChoice264 I think Graziano is kinda overrated. He didn't seem to know how to tie a fighter up, and he didn't have a great jab. He also didn't know how to take a punch. He's an all time great, because of the excitement that he brought into a fight. He always came to fight, and he was flawed. That's what made him great.
But I think any fighter with boxing skill, could of beaten Graziano in any era.
Transformers217 3 months ago
@shire2005 is clueless and filled with venom.
What a pathetic troll.
marcxopoco 1 year ago
Why on earth did the referee count him out?
kebabtank 2 years ago
tyson used this same ko many times he sed it was his favourite 2 punch combo
lee1990lee 2 years ago
I was related to Zale
dztna 2 years ago
@dztna === He's my Dad's uncle. My granmother, Staphanie (Zale) Krecik. Who are you?
kudabinalgila 1 year ago
Pour moi Tony Zale reste le plus puissant cogneur de l'histoire des poids moyen en plus d'avoir une très bonne résistance... peu de finesse mais tout de même ce qu'il faut pour être champion du monde à plusieurs reprise.
MrLoubard 2 years ago
I heard lamotta and graziano wouldn't fight each other. any truth to that? And why didn't lamotta fight zale? He was in his prime when Zale was champ.
chilidog4960 2 years ago
Zale elected to give Graziano a title shot instead of LaMotta. Graziano and LaMotta signed to fight each other but Graziano broke his hand during training.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
I saw a graziano- zale interview [I believe during this fight footage] and Rocky asked Zale why he never fought Ray Robinson... Graziano told him he thought Tony would have beaten Sugar Ray. Any thoughts? great footage thanks
lpvcrcd 2 years ago
I personally think LaMotta would smash Zale but that's just me.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
I couldn't agree with that. LaMotta could match Zale for toughness, but not for power. TKO win for Zale in the second half of the fight would be where my money would.
5overlord 2 years ago
LaMotta is much, much stronger physically and Zale's power wouldn't bother him much, he has fought bigger punchers.
There's a good reason why Zale chose to fight Graziano 3 times instead of Jake, his number 1 contender.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
Graziano punched twice as hard as LaMotta, one of the hardest of alltime, no way could Jake dent Zale"s chin, Ray Robinson said Rocky hit him hardest in his career. 52ko"s from 67 wins, Graziano had dynamite in his hands!
dan32113 2 years ago
Graziano was not in LaMotta's class, not to mention he was smaller. In fact if they were fighting today, LaMotta would be a super middleweight while Graziano would be a welter/light middle.
Most of the opponents Graziano punched out were welterweights and he was usually losing until finding the big punch.
LaMotta was much, much stronger than Graziano and would have been too much for post-World War II Zale. Don't forget that Cerdan handled Zale, while LaMotta handled Cerdan.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
And Robinson said the hardest hitter he fought was Artie Levine with Graziano next to him during The Way It Was program (which can be seen on youtube). The toughest and strongest he ever fought? Robinson said it was LaMotta without a doubt.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
I'd agree with what you say here except I think it would be a points win for Zale. Although Robinson stopped LaMotta once it was the exception to the general rule. LaMotta was unbelievably durable which makes me think he would probably last the distance but he'd be in a terrible state at the final bell.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
@5overlord if robinson had problems to knock la motta out i dont think zale does it.
Mjolbaggar 9 months ago
i think zale is an awsome fighter his power wood stop a glen johnson or bernard hokins no dout theres nota puncher as hard as him in middle weight robinson had the sharp punches and great movement but as a knockout artist i think zale was number 1 him and robinson wood b the best fight in middle weight history mayb both in there primes could b the best of all weights
lee1990lee 2 years ago
What strikes me straight away here is how much bigger Zale looks, you'd think there was a full weight class between them. Zale looks like a full blown m/wight, Graziano looks like a blown up welter.
5overlord 2 years ago
Graziano actually was a blown up welter, or more appropriately a junior middleweight. He usually weighed around 154 pounds while Zale usually came in at the limit of 160 lbs and at times over the limit.
In this particular fight both weighed 158 pounds but in truth Zale was the bigger man.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
Oh my God, what a BEAUTIFUL finish by Zale.
VCthaGOATdunker 2 years ago
rocky grazianos my grandpas brother
tsktommy 2 years ago
zale is my great grandmother's oldest brother's son.
obliviousdreamer 2 years ago
@obliviousdreamer Uncle Tony is my gran-uncle, my Dad's uncle. Small world. Our last name is Krecik
kudabinalgila 1 year ago
@kudabinalgila Krecik means " Mole " in Polish and it could be a polish name . And Zale was polish - his real name was Antoni Florian Załeski .
DranzieBooy 1 month ago
Lots of casual boxing fans say that boxers nowadays are more skilled, but not everything improves with age. Zale here gives a masterclass, including a few lessons on body punching...It's a shame that the increased significance of amateur boxing experience to promoters in selecting & grooming future champions has steadily eroded boxing techniques. Nowadays you don't see much infighting, body punching, or upper body defensive techniques due to the stupid Olympic amateur boxing rules.
HarryTheTalkingDude 2 years ago 5
Tony Zale was my trainer's trainer..Zale's right hand to the heart is a tough punch to master but will get guys to stop throwing their jab.I wish there was more footage on him and not just fights at the end of his career..Masterful boxer he was..
jonnyblaze0187 2 years ago
Tony Zale is the only man I can think of who could KO Marvin Hagler if it were possible
gamehound83 2 years ago 2
Zale! The best!
BusArtist 2 years ago
Brutality at it's best. This is when boxing was like watching a UFC match.
Both knockdowns ( the later the KO) where almost identical.
In the first one, it was probably the body shot that did th most damage. When he tries to get up notice how Graziano has to drag himself because his legs are paralyze from the wicked body shot 6:44.
For the KO combination, the left hook to the head didn't seem all that hard 7:35though he did get extreme leverage for the body blow that set him up.
6400az 2 years ago
Sorry about that , forgot about the first knock down.There where 3,
6400az 2 years ago
Im pretty sure in every knockdown the punch that did the most damage was the left hook to the head, the right to the body definitely sets it up in the third round, but the hooks at 6:21 and 6:40 is the reason he gets up on such unsteady legs. The punch at 7:03 doesnt look like it has much leverage on it, but it landed flush on the chin combined with the fact he was still hurt from punch at 6:21 and all the follow up powerhouse hooks Zale landed on him. In total i think there was about 7 :)
olddirtypelican 2 years ago
Yes, the left hook certainly did damage. But look a Graziano at around 7:25. Hard to say if that's from the body or head head shot.
In either case , I bet Zale could have KO'd Graziano even if he forgoes the head altogether . The body shots he lands go clear thorugh my computer screen !!
6400az 2 years ago
Could be a combination? he has a very Ken Norton/Rocky Marciano stance and when he gets into it around 7:25 it looks like hes weary. Could be the body shot, being stunned from the head shot or maybe both? He sure looks spent though, Zale really worked him over in this bout. The opening hook that scores the first knock down reminds me of Floyd Patterson :)
olddirtypelican 2 years ago
Yes...combined !
.Almost impossible to say if he's rubbery legged from the hook or the body blow. Both shots by Zale where landed with the precise accuracy, and devastation to boot. Whether head or body shot, they both spelled doom for Graziano.
6400az 2 years ago
@6400az Zale's main power was as a body puncher. We learned the word's solar plexus from him when we were kids and he showed us the 'jab-jab-hook (to the body) combo
kudabinalgila 1 year ago
@kudabinalgila Ok. Thanks. Zale could really bang the head too, not to mention take a shot. Phenomenal era in the fight game.
6400az 1 year ago
Holy shit that zale could punch!
And does he ever dig in with those body shots! His body work to set up the head is a clinic!
shire2005 2 years ago 2
This is why i get steamed when people talk about how great la motta was. He never fought either of these 2 guys.
I think zale could have beaten him.
shire2005 2 years ago
Hey man I love these two fighters but remember the Bronx Bull fought Marcel Cerdan who beat Tony Zale. Marcel Cerdan was a great boxer all these guys are.
fredocorleone47 2 years ago
True but Cerdan retired with a shoulder injury against LaMotta. He wasn't KO'd or outpointed. Also Zale was in his late 30's when he fought Cerdan and was at the end of a very hard career.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
Zale was 34, 2 years older than Marcel Cerdan. The fight happened only 3 months after Zale dispatched Graziano in one of his best ever performances as can be seen here.
I'd say that Cerdan and LaMotta were just higher calibre fighters than Zale or Graziano were at this point.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
I make no criticism of Cerdan. He was tough, hit pretty hard and was probably the best technical boxer out of this 4. But there's a big difference between a 34 year old Zale who'd originally won the tile (or the NBA version) 7 years earlier, and was at the very end of his career - and a 32 year old Cerdan who is hungry and getting his first big shot at the crown.Yes Zale did well here against Graziano but that's more to do with styles than it is an indicator of Zales condition at this point.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
I don't regard LaMotta as being an all time great but I think at his peak he would only have been beaten by fighters that were. He was one of the toughest ever in the division and physically very strong but he wasn't a big hitter- by far the weakest puncher out of these 4 and his reach was very short.
Zale was also very tough so there's no way Jake would have KO'd him. In fact LaMotta's style was perfect for Zale. Jake probably would have gone the distance but he would be in a mess at the end
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
I'd say he was a great. He was the only one to beat a prime Robinson and gave him a tough time everytime. He beat Holman Williams (who Zale never wanted to fight), Marcel Cerdan, Fritzie Zivic when he was still inexperienced. He fought 106 times and rarely against anyone who wasn't ranked in the top 10.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
It's a stretch to say he beat a prime Robinson. SRR had only been a pro for two and a half years at the time and LaMotta outweighed him by 16lbs. In today's terms SRR was 2lbs under the welter limit while JLM was slightly over the middleweight limit.
In fact JLM outweighed SRR every time they fought. The one time their weights were close was the MWT title fight and SRR TKO'd him.
JLM also outweighed Zivic every time they fought and FR already had 170+ fights by then so he was hardly fresh.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
Robinson was a phenom. He was 40-0 at the time and had beaten the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Marty Servo, Sammy Angott.
His loss to LaMotta was one of the greatest upsets of all time despite Robinson being outweighed. Robinson had beaten all the other middleweights who outweighed him.
Jake was weight-drained for their 6th fight which even Robinson admitted during the Way It Was program.
In 1945, right at Robinson's peak, he went to a controversial split decision with LaMotta.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
"Robinson had beaten all the other middleweights who outweighed him"
Actually Robinson had not fought any middleweights other than LaMotta at that point of his career.
The LaMotta win in 1942 was an upset but not one of greatest of all time - that's a hindsight view of it. SRR had been a pro for 2.5 years, hadn't yet even fought for a title and lost a close decision to a good middleweight who outweighed him by 16lbs.
That's not exactly Ali -Foreman or Douglas Tyson territory.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
Most observers felt the fights against LaMotta were among Zivic's best performances. Straight forward pressure fighters always suited Zivic and LaMotta at 21 years of age was clearly at a disadvantage in experience.
Graziano weighed 154 to Zale's 160 when he knocked Zale out.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
Again though - LaMotta outweighed Zivic every time, including by over 6lbs the time Zivic beat him in July '43.
.
To me (and it's only my opinion) LaMotta's most impressive win was not against Zivic or Robinson, where he had all the advantages. It was his KO of the up and coming future heavyweight bomber Bob Satterfield in 1946.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
More then often being over the wt. limit can slow a boxer down. You can't go by poundage. Some Boxers excell heavier but that's the lesser of the rule in carrying more weight.
vitalsenise 2 years ago
@vitalsenise
It's a complex issue and it's not the same for every fighter. There are a number of factors at play and it's the mix that produces the variable outcomes.
.
As a general rule though I'd say that the critical factor is a boxers natural fighting weight and how close to it the division limit that he's fighting in is.A natural 155lber fighting at 147lbs will always have problems and they'll worsten with age because your natural fighting weight tends to go up not down over time. 1/2
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
@AKAKArnott
2/2
For example: LaMotta had been a natural middleweight all his career and by the time he got a title shot his natural fighting weight was more like 165 - 170lbs. Add to this the fact his walking around weight between fights was sometimes a high as 200lbs and factor in the increased difficulty (mentally and physically) of cutting a lot of weight as you get older and Jake was always going to have a fairlyshort (although exciting) reign as the 160lb champ.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
Very true..as you age with training bone density alone will put weight on. However staying away from the fridge can keep a boxer in his weight class. The other factor with age is metabolism, It does slow down so it takes more effort to keep wt. off. However boxers are usually in the late 30's in their carrers and metabolism is still good. I've trained in Martial Arts and also Bodybuilding which requires a lot of desciplin on food intake. So I know the pitfalls. It's hard.
vitalsenise 2 years ago
He had enough punching power to hurt most fighters he fought. People look at his knockout record and percentage but that doesn't tell the whole story. The man only fought top ranked contenders. Punchers usually look good until they step up in competition, then the numbers start to drop.
He was also a lot more savvy than Zale who stood upright and absorbed punches mostly on the chin, while Jake used clever head movement and rolled with the punches he took. On the inside he would manhandle Zale.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
@AKAKArnott i think lamotta was som1 who fort gd against skillfull jabbers but not as much punchers becus he had the agression 2 stop the jabs and make them fight his fight
lee1990lee 2 years ago
Yes but people are talking as if this Zale would slaughter LaMotta. That's not going to happen. If anything would happen it would be the complete opposite. Cerdan vs Zale was a terrible mismatch and a brutal beating. LaMotta did more damage to Cerdan in the first round before the supposed injury than Zale did in the whole fight.
And Zale at his best was hardly untouchable. Avoided black Nate Bolden beat him, Billy Soose beat him (see it on youtube) beat him. He was knocked down many times.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
Imagine had Zale fought the likes of LaMotta, Burley, Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall throughout his reign, instead of Graziano 3 times. He wouldn't have stayed champ for very long.
TheGreatA 2 years ago
@AKAKArnott Cerdan fought on till the tenth round after getting injured in the first round which makes him one tough son of a bitch. And he was on his way to a rematch when his plane crashed killing him. I really think Cerdan would have given LaMotta one hell of a rematch if they had fought again.
fredocorleone47 2 years ago
I agree. In fact I think that Cerdan would have won the rematch.
A fight between these two would have been close at any time in their careers but I think that with the problems that LaMotta was having in making 160lbs , Cerdan would have edged him out and taken a 15 round decision in the rematch.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
I agree. Zale would have pounded Lamotta. I think Hagler would have taken him to
gamehound83 2 years ago
Zale would have definitely beaten LaMotta
jonnyblaze0187 2 years ago
i think so to lamotta wood have to take alot of punishment if it was to go the distance i think and zale wood mayb have to avoid stayin close to lamotta or he could get knocked out in the early rounds after about 6 7 rounds i think lamottas harder punches will b gone and zale will blok more shots
lee1990lee 2 years ago
I think Zale definitely hits harder than LaMotta..Billy Conn said Zale's body shots like heavyweight punches..Zale was my trainer's trainer..
jonnyblaze0187 2 years ago
this is a late zale here and from this he looks like the hardest hitting middleweight of all time
lee1990lee 2 years ago 5
Yeah. He's 34 here and had already been in many wars. A much underrated champion - every punch he throws has hurt in it.
AKAKArnott 2 years ago
@lee1990lee
His work to the body was extreme. The right he finished Rocky with was almost nauseating, what power!
cet0708 7 months ago
Boxers today should take a lesson or two from these great men.
gamehound83 2 years ago 2
Zale boxes brilliantly and 8 yrs older. Rocky was always dangerous and what heart. He just couldn't land his haymaker
I agree the ref should have stopped the fight when Rocky climbed the ropes. No wonder talked punchdrunk on those TV shows.
greenstboy 2 years ago
we never see the first two fights
innit27 2 years ago
ONLY THE THIRD FIGHT WAS TELEVISED.
SMCB99 2 years ago
as you prob know sadly they didnt film the first two, every fighting fan mourns it
pt1gard 2 years ago
Two minutes exist of the second fight. But unfortunately, that's it.
ihatelifejosemartine 2 years ago
Zale took Graziano apart. The final KO combo is sweet!!!!
ormandy 2 years ago
Tony Zale was my great uncle!
JackMLopez 3 years ago
Heh I didnt know he was Mexican. With a name like Lopez. Heh I'm just fuckin with ya. Congratz if he really is. Im a big fan of the Middle Weight division at this time. They were warriors. So do you have any autographed memorabilia? I have an autographed picture of Jake Lamotta that he sent me himself. I got it on my videos under tour of my room.
Quicknsick 3 years ago
well he's polish. his real last name is Zalinski. my grandfather is spanish and my grandmother, (his niece) is polish. i have some memorobilia. none personally autographed as he died before i was born. I could probably come by some if i felt obligated.
JackMLopez 3 years ago
Antoni Załęski not Zelinski
vladimirro 2 years ago
ANTONI FLORIAN ZALESKI
SMCB99 2 years ago
@JackMLopez Me too! - Steve Krecik
kudabinalgila 1 year ago
Today's fighters should learn from the classic Zale right to the body, left hook to head combination....
taclas1 3 years ago
I love how the ref keeps counting when graziano is out cold..he just keeps counting lol
trinitystarr11 3 years ago
Gotta give it to the ref on that one...Sure he was ready to go after the first knockdown.
suiramnad 3 years ago
The fight should have been stopped after that knockdown in the 3rd round. He could barely stand up and without the ropes he wouldn't have been able to stand at all.
MattyIceDog78 3 years ago
Zale didnt let him escape,he knocked him absolutely cold,Graziano was out and also seemed to bang his head on the canvas.
spd47 3 years ago
Most Brutal KO ever.
odin422 3 years ago