lol no don't show everyone our criminal activities. Bad Wikileaks. You should let us kill people, you are anti semitic and racist and a neo-nazi if you don't let us kill people and steal your money.
How many people have died due to these thousands of releases? None, end of conversation.. how many ego's have been exposed, many... good. Do you have people in gauntonemo that haven't done anything and shouldn't be there? yes..
Isn't the real threat the actions of the people that are being exposed and not the exposing of those actions? Isn't the true way to bring around moderated resolve opening it up to the public rather than running away from them?
@thehellodaisy How the fuck do you know that no one has died due to these thousands of releases? You don't. "Isn't the real threat the actions of the people that are being exposed and not the exposing of those actions?" No. There are people that are working against Islamofacist terrorism whose names are now out in the open. Are you an idiot? Yes, most definately.
@libhater1 Apparently the pentagon and C.I.A. (I think) have done an investigation to try and find evidence that these releases have led to harm and they can't, that is what I am basing my opinion on. As far as the Guantanamo Bay thing, here is a link to one person as an example "Mohammed Hassan Odaini"
there are others but I can't be bothered to look them up for a right-wing conservative asshole
@libhater1 Also by the way, how come you are getting so worked up by this, which is the release of actual things that are going on behind closed doors which could be damaging to people, in contrast with for example someone like Glenn Beck who literally makes things up to tell millions of viewers who then believe his out and out plain misinformation, all in order to manipulate them to subscribe to Rupert Murdoch's Conservative agenda. What specific instances are you worried about?
In one sentence "freedom of the press is more important than life itself" and then later "Obama should take down servers in Iceland". He's a contradicting numb skull. There can't be freedom of the press if the government has a mandate to shut down servers containing info that it doesn't want to the public to hear. Secondly the server is in Iceland, a soverign nation. I'm sure Iceland would have hell to pay if it's government shut down a server in the US.
@cardinal1690 THere is a difference between freedom of the press and receiving stolen communications. There is a NEED for some secrecy in nearly all things. If you say otherwise, then give me your real bank account number, your real financial information and all of the needed pins etc I would need to access them.
@ToddAldrich People died BECAUSE no-one with any balls was around in 2003. If Assange and Manning had been around, likely 7000 Coalition of the Killing soldiers and between 150,000 to 1,000,000 innocent Iraqis would still be alive, and three trillion dollars would not be being pissed up against the Green Zone and into the coffers of a corrupt puppet government that wouldn't last a day if the invaders rolled back the way they came.
People DIE because evil men send them to fight wars for oil.
@allieron People died because Saddam lied about his weapons. If you think the deaths were ANYWHERE NEAR 1,000,000 I have some land in Floriday I would love to sell you.Our nations interest was served in getting rid of Saddam and getting rid of terrorists and their supporters EVERYWHERE. I was there, and I also am friends with a family that fled Saddam and his genocidal regime. Saddam MURDERED more people per year than what died when we went in.
@ToddAldrich Please go to Iraq Body Count, and the International Red Cross. Just because your General's smirk and go "we don't do body counts" doesn't mean that others don't.
What utter BS as well concerning Saddam. Was your 'interest' served in seeing Iran emerge as a regional power going nuclear ? Because that's a DIRECT result of your snafu in Iraqnam.
Saddam "murdered" around 300,000 people over all his years as dictator, 100,000 Kurds, 50,000 Marsh Arabs and 150,000 Shi'ites and opponents.
@allieron I get my figures from Iraq body count - yet even they count normal crime deaths that you see in any big city as being because of our presence - so they grossly overestimate the deaths. In addition they blame US for all of the deaths when the VAST majority of innocent deaths are cause by the terrorists!
Your Saddam figures are low. According to MOST sources the body count for Saddam is between 1 and 2 MILLION deaths. 500,000 were due JUST to his scamming the Oil for food program.
@ToddAldrich Now with those FACTS, we will use your Iraq Body count figures (the high end) and the LOW end of 1,000,000 deaths for Saddam. Saddam was in power for 21 years. 1,000,000 / 21 = 47,619 death per year or 3,968 per month.
Since we went in, according to Iraq Body Count, as of 11:03 am today (Dec. 23) there were 108,281 deaths (high estimate) We have been in Iraq since March 2003 that is 93 months 108,281 / 93 = 1,164 deaths per month. That is nearly a 71% DECREASE in deaths.
@ToddAldrich More BS. The FACTS do NOT bear your pathetic neocon spinning out. Saddam was a bastard, but he didn't kill anywhere near what he's attributed by the sly agencies that have sucked your mind out.
Your Masters lump in the death-toll of the Iran/Iraq war and the deaths theorized to have been caused by starvation during the US and British embargo. Then they multiply by 2 and throw in some extra zeros, and someone who is gullible MAY just fall for it.
@allieron Iran - Iraq war was nearly (or even exceeding) the figure I used ALL BY ITSELF. According to all of the Human rights groups out there - they pretty much all say that 500,000 children were STARVED to death while Oil-for-food was being plundered by Saddam. The Al-Anfal campaign was good for a couple of hundred thousand deaths. So yes they DID lump those in but THEY SHOULD - Saddam was responsible and PURPOSELY so in ALL of them. So quit acting like he wasn't responsible for them.
@ToddAldrich So you're happy to blame Saddam directly for all the deaths, yet when I mention that none of the deaths post 2003 would have happened had you not illegally invaded Iraq, thus are entirely at the responsibility of YOUR invasion forces and the mindless neocon muppets like Bremer, that's somehow not "accurate" ?
You hypocrisy does you dishonor.
Bremer disbanded the Iraq army and police, and your pillage of Iraq opened the gate to civil war and criminality. No-one else was responsible.
@allieron Part of the STATED reasons for us going it was to STOP this Genocide but all you America haters want to concentrate on is the WMD's that were not found.
And AS I JUST PROVED, us going in DECREASED the death toll by at LEAST 71% - in fact HUNDREDS of thousands of innocent Iraqi's are alive today BECAUSE we went in. So yes I will BLAME us directly for keeping those hundreds of thousand from meeting their end at the hands of Saddam.
@ToddAldrich More rubbish, Todd. Are you incapable of seeing even simple, self-evident reality ? No WAY in a million years could the situation in Iraq pre-invasion be compared to the utter fubar POST invasion. Despite the embargo and continued presence of Saddam, Iraq was one of the more progressive of ALL the Muddle East nations, with only Israel standing higher in the quality of life and some semblance of democracy and open government.
@ToddAldrich No, Iraq was a dictatorship like all Muddle Eastern nations, but one who paid less lip service to "democracy" than the others. Look at the Saudis. Free elections ? Ha ha ! The Egyptians ? Free and democratic elections ? LOL ! Iran had elections, too. See how "democratic" they are ?
Your propaganda from USAid is woeful. Destroy a nation, terrorize people who've never harmed you, then offer them some candy and Mickey schoolbooks. Electricity, fresh water ? Ha ha. Fuck off.
@ToddAldrich It's YOU who needs to get "up to date", Todd.
"Seven years after the U.S.-led invasion, Iraqis are taking to the streets to demand basic services they have not received, despite many promises and the expenditure of billions of dollars by the U.S. and Iraqi governments."
This was from the WaPo, June 2010. Hardly a "Left-wing" paper.
Please read the 2010 UNESCO report of YOUR FUCKING FUBAR mess concerning the nigh-on inexistent water supplies. Even Saddam wasn't as crap as you.
@allieron They have more access now than they had while Saddam was in power. That is simply a FACT. The fact that they CAN protest is a TRIBUTE to our success. In the comparatively few cases where they do have extended shortages - MOST of it is due the the TERRORISTS destroying their facilities!!!! But then, YOU don't care about the truth, all you want is to demonize America.
@ToddAldrich More bullshit, and ANY Iraqi will tell this to you straight to your face.
The "terrorists" are there UNIQUELY because some bungling putzes invaded the wrong nation and then FUBAR'd the entire administration of the shattered nation. What nation was that, Todd ? Iran ? Saudi Arabia ? France ? Iceland ?
Who do YOU think the blame for the collapse and descent into chaos and anarchy of Iraq belongs to ?
@allieron Nope.Bush did not plan properly AND he listened to the liberals in our country who urged him not to have too big of a footprint. THEN once things started going bad, the rules of engagement prevented us from getting the bad guys while they were still weak.It was still the right thing to do AND we saved thousands of lives by doing so.But then you probably think those people weren't worth saving. To people like you, their only value is when you can use them to demonize the U.S.
@ToddAldrich MORE BULLSHIT !! It was Rumsfeld and Perle who insisted that they didn't need that many troops, DESPITE the advice of virtually ALL the GenStaff.
"Mr Powell said he had warned President Bush over dinner in August 2002 that the problem with Iraq was not going to be the invasion but what followed.
He told him: "This place will crack like a goblet and it will be a problem to pick up the bits."
He was right. Your snafu CREATED the chaos, and is responsible for all the deaths.
@ToddAldrich No, Todd. YOU'RE the "terrorist" supporter. You maintained, along with us, Hussein in power because he was OUR dictator, until he did his own thing, just as you overthrew democracies and installed dictators to keep the valuable resources flowing the world over. Reagan supplied arms to the mullahs and financed the terrorist Contras, who are now the drug runners filling the veins of your youths. You armed and trained the Mujahideen and OBL, and now "Blowback's a bitch"...
@ToddAldrich Oh yeah, Hitler was also funded by people like Prescott Bush and Ford, Rockefeller, the Dulles and many of the "Old Money" Right-wing scum you currently pimp for, because he made the trains run on time.
See "The nazi hydra in America" and look who was mentioned in the "Trading with the enemy" act.
@allieron Ah the old Prescott Bush Canard. Let me enlighten you on this. Prescott Bush was the manager of a BRANCH office of a DIVISION of a large company whose main owner gave money to Hitler in the 1930's- before Hitler became HITLER. After Hiter showed his true nature (@ 1940) Theissen CUT HITLER OFF and spent the rest of the war HIDING from Hitler - until he was caught and sent to Hitlers prisons. Blaming Bush is like blaming the local Kmart manger for Stock fraud in the Sears boadroom.
@ToddAldrich Read the "Nazi Hydra in America", and look at the closeness of the nazi regime and the funders and backers of them. Read Attorney John Loftus's investigation into how Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush's oily hands dipped deep into the bloody guts of fascism. Of course, it was all for money and power, the ideology was superfluous. The fact millions died was "just one of those things", much as it was in Iraq.
@allieron And yet you act as if all of the Deaths on Iraq Body Count were deaths by American Soldiers!
A large amount of them were because normal murders and traffic accidents that occur in EVERY city on earth, yet they STILL find there way into the IBC data. THEN you act as if WE are the ones killing the innocents! WE are the ones trying to STOP the terrorists from killing them! Do you blame the police when a gang goes on a killing spree???
@ToddAldrich There were NO terrorists in Iraq BEFORE you went in on your idiot neocon crusade. Iraq was a hard place because these nations are. Saddam was a prick, but then, show me a dictator or hard man that isn't. The Saudis are worse than he was, and if you think their hands are merely stained with oil, you've got another think coming. Your idiot actions have completely destabilized an already shaky region, and given birth to the neocons deepest desire; Eternal War, and a nebulous "enemy".
@allieron So take your self-righteous BULLSHIT and spread it elsewhere. You just want to spread hate towards American -NO MATTER WHAT the actual facts are.
@ToddAldrich I don't hate America. I hate fascism, and the mindless happy-clapping of belligerent tools like you, behind which your sly Masters leer and gloat, frotting their hands as the shades of War, Death, Disease and Famine follow your pathetic pontificating for the beauty of your weapons and try to justify the unjustifiable.
I've given you the facts, if you can't handle them, I'm unsurprised. You're programmed to follow, not lead.
@allieron In other words, you hate America so much - that you are willing to set aside truth and fact in order to disparage her by projecting onto her the darkest traits of your own soul.
@ToddAldrich I've also made it quite clear that I do NOT hate America, but I hate fascism and illegal empire building. I'd hate it if it was the Chinese, or the Russians, or us, and I hate that it's you who have fallen into the clutches of the "Vulcans" and their lust for a Neo American Century, or Reich. Whatever.
You were used as gullible cannon-fodder and half-wit, heavily-armed tools by sly men in high places to further a heist of America that SHOULD have had you up in arms in defense.
@allieron Here is reality BUCKO. You support terrorists. You support Hamas, who targets innocent women and children - and THEN you have the fucking nerve to condemn those who are trying to put an end to it. In Iraq, you do the obligatory "Saddam was a bad guy" but the US - who put a STOP to his GENOCIDE is the REAL bad guy. You are confronted with the FACT that the VAST majority of innocent deaths in IRaq are due to TERRORISTS - and you have the GALL to blame those who try to stop them.
@ToddAldrich More BS. The "terrorists" in Iraq exist UNIQUELY because you invaded a nation you didn't understand, led by utterly incompetent morons with oil in their eyes, you destroyed an infrastructure and offered ONLY chaos in its place, then looked "surprised" that it turned to shit ?
Hamas are pricks, but they target wherever possible military targets, but you won't hear that, because that makes them look legit, and Willy-Pete is easier to dump on "terrorists" than terrified civilians.
@ToddAldrich Rubbish. Saddam was an asshole, but we SUPPORTED him until he got cocky. He was NO WORSE than the Saudis or any of the other bloated petro-leaders in this god-forsaken sandy hell on the asshole of the planet.
The only one being "controlled" here Todd is you. Look at the bigger picture.
@allieron We supported Saddam UNTIL he started using Chemical Weapons. Rumsfeld's trip to Iraq was to warn Saddam about using them. You will note that after this meeting and Saddam's refusal to end their use, our relations rapidly deteriorated.
He was FAR worse than the Saudi's - they didn't commit genocide.
@ToddAldrich More BS. The blame for the ChemWep use was laid on Iran, but you KNEW damn well he was using them. Rummie was there to supply MORE arms (see the declassified Senate report) and offer satellite intel, not to whine about illegal weapon use. The Iranians also likely used area-denial chem weapons.
The Saudis finance most of the radical terrorist groups. They MAY not pull the triggers (although the tribal areas of SA disprove this..) but they fund them for "genocide".
@allieron The Blame was not laid on Iran. Saddam TRIED to but only to cover/excuse his own use. I saw the declassified report and he went there to allow AID in terms of vaccines and intelligence. The memos of the report CLEARLY show he was to warn against further use of Chemical weapons. Go read your report again. Saudi nationals fund much terror, but the government does not fund Genocide.
@ToddAldrich Please read the meticulously documented and totally foot-noted with official archives article here. "Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein: The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984. National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82".
Feel ABSOLUTELY free to read in Rummie's own words what he whispered into Saddam's ear.
@allieron Been there, done that. Shaking hands with Saddam is my source for the PROOF that Rumsfeld was instructed to warn Saddam to stop. But then I read each and every memo - not the "analysis" of the memo's that was PURPOSELY composed to try and demonize the US.
@ToddAldrich What ?? Look at the manifesto of weapons and POTENTIAL weapons delivered to Saddam (often by quite circuitous routes..) AFTER Don Rummy had pressed-the-flesh. Does that look like an admonishment of Saddam's naughtiness ?
You are demonized because you damn well went looking for it.
@ToddAldrich Also, to whimper that you "saved" innocent lives going in is beyond pathetically ignorant.
IBC lists DOCUMENTED civilian death from Operation Iraqi Liberty as over 100,000. Iraqi military deaths are far, far higher.
Every other source, from the WHO to the surveys of Iraqi households, puts the average well above the Saddam-era figure. Those who claim Saddam's toppling made life safer for Iraqis have a lot of explaining to do.
Ralph Peters hasn't got his facts straight - the only terrorists that are coming out of the Wikileads cables and thank god there's some transparent truth in the release of these cables alone - Is the US Government. Documents released show pandemic corruption by the US Government on a worldwide scale. Jeez I hope he exposes the tragic saga of the 9/11 attacks and who was really behind them that should silence the doubters in the USA. RP is dangerously defamatory as well.
What a joke .. Ralph Peters hasn't got his facts straight - the only terrorists that are coming out of the Wikileads cables and thank god there's some transparent truth in the release of these cables alone - Is the US Government. Documents released show pandemic corruption by the US Government on a worldwide scale. Jeez I hope he exposes the tragic saga of the 9/11 attacks and who was really behind them that should silence the doubters in the USA. RP is dangerously defamatory as well.
What a joke .. Ralph Peters hasn't got his facts straight - the only terrorists that are coming out of the Wikileads cables and thank god there's some transparent truth in the release of these cables alone - Is the US Government. Documents released show pandemic corruption by the US Government on a worldwide scale. Jeez I hope he exposes the tragic saga of the 9/11 attacks and who was really behind them that should silence the doubters in the USA. RP is dangerously defamatory as well.
@theoryspecialist And if you have me blocked, then you wouldn't know my posts were disjointed OR 4 pages! I have only responded to you 3 or 4 times - and with fairly short responses.
@theoryspecialist Obviously you are reading this, and every single post of mine is a response to someone ELSE who was reading it. (that would explain the fragmentation).
@theoryspecialist Nope. If someone comes along and reads the nonsense you morons post here, without refutation, they might be swayed. People need to know the truth.
@ToddAldrich Yet you have NO "truth", Todd. Merely the same neoconned bullshit that dragged you into Iraqnam in the first place. Everything you have as "justification" for your crimes is lies, spin and bullshit, and the nett result of your complete FUBAR mess of Operation Iraqi Liberty (OIL...) has been Iran growing atomic balls, the Islamic hardline getting a big boner with plenty of vigorous young sperms swimming in the funk looking to be used, and a mega clusterfuck of EPIC proportions.
@ToddAldrich You see why you look like a clueless moron ? The simple fact that you're incapable of abstracting and understanding that private records are NOT the same as state secrets and coverups. No-one cares if you withdrew 40 bucks from the BoA ATM on West 4th for a BJ on the way home from work, but they DO care about a combat helicopter whacking civilians in an illegal war.
If you can't understand this, then you're either an idiot, or a COINTELPRO drone.
@ToddAldrich The difference, and this is an important one, is that I do not currently have my massively expensive army engaged in an illegal three TRILLION dollar war and am busy fucking up nations I do NOT understand and I do NOT belong in, and I am also NOT a vast, secretive, fascist-leaning nation of gullible, propaganda-blinded idiots waving its bloated military cock around and doing dumb shit to the planet.
I hope that's clear enough for you to understand ?
You want you and people like Assange to be able to live by different rules than you insist others live by. Of course YOU have only good intentions and only want to do good! How very um, fascist of you.
"the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter." UN Sec.Gen. Kofi Annan.
HJ Res. 114 is what you base your ignorance on, I'm sure, but if you read Section 3, paragraph B, Bush was required to prove to the Congress that Iraq was in violation of UN Resolutions by still being in possession of weapons of mass destruction, and secondly, that Iraq was behind 9-11. Doh ! Neither was true. All lies.
I would suggest you re-read the resolution. There is no mention of WMD's.
Besides, Iraq committed MULTIPLE acts of war against us. ANY SINGLE ONE justified us going to war.
They fired on our planes frequently (locking on to them with SAM missiles is considered firing on them) ANY single instance is justification, yet we forgave this on a regular basis until 2003.
@allieron How about you tell the truth! There was absolutely NO REQUIREMENT for WMD's in the Iraqi war resolution, NOR was there a requirement for proof of a 9-11 connection.
There were requirements and amonst them were requirements for Iraq being judged as a threat OR having connections to SOME terrorist groups (amongst others) - but nothing was mentioned about WMD's and a connection to 9-11 was not a requirement.
@allieron The President NEVER said that there was a connection to 9-11. Iraq WAS a threat as long as Saddam was in power. He is on record saying (to, I believe his son-in law who later defected (and then returned only to be murdered by Saddam)) he was going to give weapons to third parties for the specific purpose of attacking us but avoiding the blame. In addition he ABSOLUTELY funded terrorists and gave rewards to the families of suicide bombers.
Iraq was NO threat with Saddam in power, and Saddam expected "business as usual" with America to resume once the sanctions had ended.
Kamel al-Hussein also said "I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons—biological, chemical, missile, nuclear—were destroyed." after the end of Oil War 1. There was NO talk at all of giving NBC weapons to anyone, because they had ALL been destroyed.
@allieron Then why did Hans Blix say, merely weeks before we went in, that Saddam had confiscated a document that PROVED that Iraq had far more VX gas than he addmitted to, it was more refined, it was weaponized and was NOT destroyed - an amount of 1000 TONS of VX gas.
Why did the ISG say there was sufficiently credible evidence that the WMD's went to Syria. Why did the 2nd in command of the Iraqi Air Force admit that they gutted jumbo jets and filled them with WMD's and sent them to Syria?
"While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered."
@ToddAldrich Further, you lying POS, NOTHING got out of Iraq, and certainly NOT in 747's, of which Iraq had only one, and that's been in mothballs in Jordan since 1990.
The story you are believing is based on Evangelical Christian George Sada's nonsense to launch his book (initially called "Buy me, gullible Right-wingers"...) and has been totally discredited.
@ToddAldrich Listen very carefully, Todd, because it's obvious that you know SFA.
VX, like Sarin is a massively complicated weaponized gas to manufacture and stock. It can ONLY be stored in binary form, and then ONLY for maximum 10 years in careful storage. It is useless otherwise unless used rapidly. Saddam stopped making it in 1988, because it is NOT very useful against an army, only civilians and soft targets without NBC capacity.
@allieron And just so you know, the very definition of binary is that it is NOT a weapon yet, it has to be combined with another agent to become the weapon.
The PURPOSE of making it binary is so that it is STABLE and so that it does NOT degrade.
@ToddAldrich Sarin AND VX are used in artillery shells and dumb-bombs, and are maintained in binary form 10 years max. As I said, VX by itself lasts, in good conditions of optimal storage, 4 months maximum. After that, it's useless, and to produce it requires a sophisticated and specialized lab with trained engineers and chemists.
This is why it was stopped as a program in 1988, and the stocks destroyed. It serves NO battlefield use against an NBC-equipped army.
@ToddAldrich No, Todd, they are NOT. Even in binary form, they have a shelf-life in optimal storage of ten years. There were some sarin-filled shells found that had been dumped in a pit by the Iraqis, two of which had been rigged as IED's by the Iraqi Resistance, but the only way they would have been deadly is if you ate them or had them fall on your head.
@allieron Hey moron, I was NOT talking about Sarin - or the few scattered weapons found in pits etc.
You are doing nothing other than creating strawmen.
You have not read the complete Duelfer report - or you would have known that the movement of WMD to syria was quoted from that very report. I am using YOUR sources. And you are obviously ignorant of the nature of binary weapons. The entire purpose of them in binary form is so the DON'T degrade - and it works.
@ToddAldrich I quote you the report exactly, then.
""It was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD from Iraq to Syria took place before the war."
That frontier was sewn up tighter than a fishes ass, and the difficulty in shipping chem weapons by road without leaks OR discovery OR some of it going "missing" is massive.
You are NOT the only ones with spy satellites, either, and the distinctive trace of chem weapons has NEVER been found, nor has ANYONE come forward with proof.
There was no paperwork - but there was evidence of it. First off, most of the movement if it occurred, would have been done BEFORE we went in - or in the early days when we were NOT even in the area. In addition even when we were there and it was "sewn up tighter than a fishes ass" - like the Iranian border - Weapons being used against us seemed to have no trouble getting through.
@ToddAldrich Damn, but you're stupid. What is SatIntel ? What were SAS and SOG and JSOC doing in the frontier area between Syria and Iraq prior to the war ?
The NeoCon's had put everything they had into convincing gullible fools like you and your leaders that there were WMD, the LAST thing they would allow is for them to just drive away over the border.
The Iranian border is totally different in it's length and complexity. Just do some simple research.
@allieron If they were that intent on propagating a lie, it would have been VERY easy to plant them - yet they did not.
You say the border was impassable yet MILLIONS of guns, explosives and other military material made it through and into the hands of those fighting against us.
@ToddAldrich Again, just think. Iraq was under VERY close observation. NBC weapons are easily traceable, and not all Americans are stupid. Sneaking in "Drop" WMD would involve too many people, and be to open to international scrutiny, the neocons had failed to discredit totally the UN, and not every high-level American played oil-ball with their gung-ho philosophy.
Most of the weapons used against you came from arms dumps the Marines forgot to guard as they rushed to protect the Ministry of Oil.
@ToddAldrich Rubbish. No, but seriously, do you realize how stupid you sound ? Ammunition has likely been smuggled in, although you lost huge amounts due to your clumsiness, and the arms dumps were left unguarded for weeks while the Marines guarded the Ministry of Oil and looted Saddam's palaces looking for "proof" of WMD (none found, BTW...)
@ToddAldrich No it DOESN'T. Unless your satellites, drones, reconnaissance and AWACs and Special Forces, the British Special Forces, Jordanian, Iranian and Syrian border-guards are all completely useless, that is...
You're trying the same bullshit as the Team-B crap. "Because we can't detect Russian submarines, that means they must be there with secret undetectable engines, despite NO proof via our intel networks, which just means they're REALLY well hidden..."
@ToddAldrich Also, IF Iran had been supplying the Resistance with weapons, you would have had Apaches and transport aircraft falling out of the sky taken down with Strela 3's and Mithaqs, MRAP's blown inside-out by RPG-29's and thermobaric rounds making FOB casualties impressive. EFP damage would be far greater, and your com systems would have had a beating. None of that happened.
Iran has a good, solid and advanced weapons program. None of it has been seen in Iraq.
@ToddAldrich Still doesn't work. But I guess I know what it refers too, and that's wrong, as well. The mortar rounds were not Iranian (wrong markings) and an EFP is easy to make once you know how. Iraq has plenty of shells lying around.
Google this. "U.S. Task Force Found Few Iranian Arms in Iraq By Gareth Porter".
If Iran had been supplying arms and Quds training, you'd have a LOT more KIA to drape flags over.
Seriously, try non-neocon sources for TRUTH. It's not too late.
@allieron What a joke. People like Assange will guarantee that distrust between nations prevails and that War will be the only answer.
I will return to where I started. There is a legitimate reason for nations to keep things private - just like there are legitimate reasons for YOU to keep some things private.
There was NOTHING in the leaks that showed ANYTHING criminal - just things that destroy trust between nations. That is something we need MORE of, not less.
@ToddAldrich Again, I disagree. Have you read the telegrams ? The problem is the arrogant and condescending tone, more than anything else, as well as the exposure of NOT very good diplomacy. Overall, though, there is nothing that any informed advisor would find shocking, although the spying on the UN is pretty sick.
Assange's insistence, and I agree, is that you've styled yourselves as THE moral examples, and as such you should behave like it, not like a bunch of conniving, arrogant schmucks.
@allieron Of course you excuse Assange for publishing the NAMES of our sources against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Those people were helping to end terrorist attacks on innocent people. Now they not only will be useless as sources (and will lead to more bad intelligence like we had in Iraq), but they and their families are in MORTAL danger.
@ToddAldrich Nonsense, Todd. If you think the Taliban don't KNOW who aids the Americans, then you need to go and study some of that "Hearts-and-Minds" COIN gumpf.
If the Taliban were a foreign invader, then it may make sense, but they're people FROM those villages, and they know who's aiding you, just as those who aid you know who the Taliban are.
Assange asked the Pentagon to redact the notes to protect names and sources, in their arrogance, they refused. Your ball.
@allieron You are flat wrong on that. The Taliban did NOT know many of those helping us - you flat don't know what you are talking about. Of course they do NOW, and we don't have the intelligence gathering ability we had before.
You say Assange asked the PENTAGON to redact the notes??? The pentagon had no control!!! They asked HIM not to release them! He is the one that could have done such.
@ToddAldrich What destroys trust is the absence of straight-talk. If you can't be honest and forthright, then what's the point ? Some honest, a bit of humble-pie, and you'd get epic things done. Look at Kennedy, even Obama. They're wildly popular everywhere else on the planet. Why ? Because they spoke from the heart, and weren't unbearable idiots like Bush or hideous fascists like Bolton and Cheney.
You have a massive position of force, yet Bolton abused this and pissed off ALL your allies.
@allieron Bolton was just about the only one who actually spoke the truth. All Obama has done is pander, and you can see how successful that is with Iran and North Korea. He is a JOKE.
@ToddAldrich Bolton has been full of shit from the day he was born. Of all PNAC and AEI neocon madmen who ruined America, he's the most annoying. It's interesting you complain that American diplomats often condescending comments should remain "secret" so as not offend, yet don't mind the brash arrogance and single-minded zeal with which Bolton restarted the NK nuke program and tried to reboot the Gold War for his arms company backers ?
@allieron The NK nukes were being built before Bolton gained his office. You can thank Jimmy Carter and Clinton for that. The idea that they were under control before Bolton is ludicrous.
Bolton understands just who is enabling the anti-American forces. Those people who the left want to like us, are playing people like you for fools - INCLUDING our President. They are merely using the UN and our gullibility and desire for peace to gain an advantage.
@ToddAldrich No, again you're wrong. It was Carter in 1994 that caused the abandonment of the NK nuke program, although whether this was ever fully stopped is open for debate, but the belligerence of Bush and Bolton rebooted it, just as the invasion of Iraq spurred the Iranians into choosing a hardliner rather than the moderate who was thought to be "too weak" in an obvious US push to create a three-front war-zone.
Again, the RAD manifesto had been read AND understood by many. Iran was next..
@allieron It is NOT open for debate. CLINTON and CARTER gave NK the ability to create Nuclear weapons. They stopped NOTHING. There is no way that they could have advanced as quickly as they did UNLESS they spent the whole time builing the capabilty.
All Bolton and Bush did was bring it out into the open.
@ToddAldrich Again, rubbish. Look it up. The DoD has declassified a lot of the data.
Please also look at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. They have a clear, simple and referenced timeline. Look hard at who is feeding you the BULLSHIT about Carter and Clinton. You will find not ONE credible source, but you WILL find neocon scum. Lots of them, all whining and deflecting, obfuscating, like you do, about how it's not THEIR fault...but in fact, it is.
@allieron Bolton merely points out that we have had these negotiations in the past, and part of our Negotiations with Russia were that they actually HELP stop Iranian nuclear advancement. Instead, they HELP Iran bypass the UN. You demonize Bolton because he insists that we not get taken advantage of. Apparently you think WE must kiss everyone else's ass - even while they are spitting in our face.
@ToddAldrich No. No, I completely disagree with this. The problem is the belligerence of Bolton, and his not-so-secret agenda. International diplomacy is a frustrating thing sometimes, but the Bolton way has Epic Failed in EVERY case. The entire neocon project, which I'm not ashamed to say I supported once, has been an utter failure, and has CREATED far more problems than it resolved, almost as if that was the underlying aim in the first instance.
@ToddAldrich Also, my idea of American diplomacy ? "Speak softly and carry a big stick".
You have the big stick, and no-one anywhere on the planet will contest that, but the REAL measure of force and the quality of a nation that SHOULD be looked up to is it's restraint.
The UN is the perfect vehicle for a REAL peace-keeping AND maintaining role, but finks like Bolton undermine it for his OWN goals and frankly fascist empire-building aims.
His tunnel-vision of a neo American Reich is the problem.
@allieron The UN has been taken over by groups and countries that have no interest in real peace. It has been reduced to nothing more than a conduit to fleece America and to blame us for all of the problems in the world.
@ToddAldrich No, again, I don't think so. Look beyond the hyperbole and the frankly shameless propaganda I KNOW you read and really look hard at the UN. They're the first ones to admit they need reform, and reform is continuous, but the positive outweighs massively the negative.
The NeoCon's hate the UN, because it is fair and balanced, and favors diplomacy and the UN Declaration of Rights, Justice and the rule of impartial Law. As such, it interferes with American hegemony, just as it should.
@ToddAldrich An age-old adage, and one worthy of Obama, is "Speak softly but carry a big stick."
People WANT to trust you, and WANT to like you, even after all the shit the neocons put us through, but it won't work if you persist on allowing vacuous traitors like Lieberman to fuck your Constitution and goose-step around sneering "Death to Free Speech and the First Amendment."
@allieron I find it amazing how you lefties say that WE gave him the WMD's when what we gave him were vaccines and other "dual use" items. Yet when we FOUND dual use items in weapons (that we didn't give him) and suddenly we cannot use them as proof because they were "dual use".
I find it amazing that dual use pesticides stored in the same facilities as empty warheads get pooh - poohed. I personally saw those.
@ToddAldrich The pesticides you "saw" were just that. Pesticide. Iraq is, or was, once the fertile crescent, and pesticide use is widespread. BECAUSE it can also be used as an explosive, Saddam insured that it was stocked at military depots under guard of trusted lieutenants, so that anyone hostile to his regime had no easy access to supplies. There was nothing sinister, nor dual purpose to its existence in arms dumps.
@allieron Yeah, sure. I like how you excuse Saddam when he stored dual use Chemical weapons - nerve gas no less, STORED in the same facility as empty chemical weapons warheads - if the chemicals had been IN the warheads there would be no doubt, yet they were in the same facility, merely minutes from being in warhead if they wanted, yet you jump to all sorts of GUILTY charges when there is no proof whatsoever in regards to Cheney.
@ToddAldrich Cheney KNEW the information was false. He had total oversight to Feith, Perle and Wurmser's agitations. He was so "in the loop" that he formed the center.
The pesticides were there, no problem. But they were PESTICIDES. Weaponizing that shit is NOT easy. They COULD have been made into weapons, or they could have sprayed tomatoes.
@ToddAldrich If you'd bothered to read "Rebuilding Americas Defences (and fucking up everybody elses...)" you'd now that WHATEVER the results of ALL the spy intel, Cheney was going ahead regardless.
Our DGSE, which had ears all the way in to the top echelons of Saddam's inner circle KNEW there where no WMD, which is why we REFUSED to caution the folly of Iraqnam. We shared all the sources and intel we had, but Cheney refused it all. His mind was made up, and the Great Neocon Leap Assward began.
@ToddAldrich Further, you people jeer at Truthers, saying that such an endeavor as 9/11 could NOT have been carried out by select members of a cabal high in the US power circle because "someone would have talked", yet unblinkingly accept that vast quantities of WMD were shifted under ALL the eyes of the World community ?
Sada "talked" because he wanted a ticket to the West and cash. He found the same eager, gullible idiots like you that Chalabi had. Can you blame him for lying to you ?
@allieron I am not gullible at all, I am simply fighting your allegation that Bush lied. There is no evidence of that.
The WMD's are a side issue that is undetermined - but to quote Duelfer there is "sufficiently credible evidence to investigate further". We never were permitted to investigate further.
@ToddAldrich Bush was led to believe, just as you and most of your compatriots were, that WMD existed. Cheney KNEW it was BS, as did most Intel agencies planet-wide, but it fitted in perfectly with the Greater Middle East project that had been floating around CENTCOM for years, spawned by the sly Think-Tanks on K-street and people like Peters. It was a great excuse, and even the doubters guessed they'd find SOME sort of WMD. But there was nothing.
@ToddAldrich Oh yeah, Inspector Duelfer said this, too.
"we had some intel that perhaps some materials had been moved there. We looked as closely as we could at that, there were a few leads which we were not able to fully run down, largely because of the security situation, but it's my judgment that had substantial stocks, important stocks been moved to Syria, someone would have told something to us about that. So I have a lot of confidence that basically the picture is as you reflected it."
@ToddAldrich Also, this is why chem weapons are NOT used unless rapid manufacture and deployment facilities are available, and why the blah-blah by the OSP and the rambling of Sada was nonsense.
The TWO reports, the Duelfer and the more overall follow-up of the ISG report, chaired by Baker, as well as the UNMOVIC final report are conclusive. No WMD. None. No 747's transporting them, no trucks, nothing got out.
You whimper I'M a "conspiracy nut", yet YOU'RE the "connedspiracy" nut here.
@ToddAldrich Read the Duelfer report, and the VX, like the Sarin has been found and accounted for. 150 to 200 tons could still, however, not be PRECISELY accounted for due to its dispersion and burning in 1989, hence your confusion and the delight of your neocon justifiers, but it had likely been disposed of by burning and scattering in pits as Saddam instructed.
Read the UNMOVIC final report and the Senate Intel Committee report of 2008.
Iraq Survey Group Final Report (Duelfer report) 30 September 2004
The round-up and overview; ISG Baker-Hamilton Commission Report
Read the SSCI report (July 2004) and SSCI Phase II (June 2008)
Read also "The Failure of British Political and Military Leadership in Iraq" by Adam Holloway, "At the Center of the Storm" by George Tenet, as well as "Iraq Confidential: The Untold Story of the Intelligence Conspiracy to Undermine the UN and Overthrow Saddam Hussein" by Ritter.
@ToddAldrich No, again you misunderstand. Assange's GOAL with Wikileaks is to expose lies, corruption and ethical dishonesty in ALL nations. He is NON-PARTISAN, and why it seems he's focused on the US is because you're currently the ONLY nation invading others based on lies and shady deals.
Further, most of your leaders EXPECTED to find WMD, so comprehensive was the propaganda by the neocons and INC. You were all fooled, but only waterboarding Cheney will show you by how much.
@ToddAldrich Please read "Angler, the Cheney Vice Presidency" by Barton Gellman. Just ONE part.
"Dick Armey (R) had spoken out against the war. Cheney was trying to change his mind. So the vice president told him the threat from Iraq was actually "more imminent than we want to portray to the public at large." In Armey's account, Cheney told him:
"Iraq's "ability to miniaturize weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear," had been "substantially refined since the first Gulf War,"
@allieron Bad information brought on by the left destroying our intelligence capabilities.
You DO know that we were pretty much FORCED to rely on "curve ball" because the left here pretty much fired our human sources of information and made recruiting new sources nearly impossible. They also de-funded our intelligence agencies. It was not Cheney's fault.
@ToddAldrich Wha....!!!??? Are you stupid ? Do you know who pimped Curveball on you ? Who was the INC, and who backed and supported them ? Who petitioned Clinton to invade Iraq, then, when he told them to "Fuck off", did EVERYTHING in their sly power to impeach him and get him out of their way. Who infested the Pentagon, to the point where even Powell called them "Fucking crazies" ?
@ToddAldrich Again, Todd, the problem is that I believe that Cheney KNEW, and all the evidence from the OSP shows DELIBERATE falsification, spin and TOTAL obstruction to anyone who had the truth. Read the declassified docs from the DoD. They're chilling, as is Tenet's book.
The PNAC held your balls, and the fate of the planet, in their oily hands for 4 long years. That's NOT "conspiracy" nonsense, but verifiable fact.
lol no don't show everyone our criminal activities. Bad Wikileaks. You should let us kill people, you are anti semitic and racist and a neo-nazi if you don't let us kill people and steal your money.
pywakett350 4 months ago
How many people have died due to these thousands of releases? None, end of conversation.. how many ego's have been exposed, many... good. Do you have people in gauntonemo that haven't done anything and shouldn't be there? yes..
Isn't the real threat the actions of the people that are being exposed and not the exposing of those actions? Isn't the true way to bring around moderated resolve opening it up to the public rather than running away from them?
thehellodaisy 1 year ago
@thehellodaisy How the fuck do you know that no one has died due to these thousands of releases? You don't. "Isn't the real threat the actions of the people that are being exposed and not the exposing of those actions?" No. There are people that are working against Islamofacist terrorism whose names are now out in the open. Are you an idiot? Yes, most definately.
libhater1 1 year ago
@libhater1 Who is working against Islamofacist terrorism? What information was released?
thehellodaisy 1 year ago
@thehellodaisy ...and please tell us who is in Guantanamo that hasn't done anything, you left-wing liberal asshole...
libhater1 1 year ago
Comment removed
thehellodaisy 1 year ago
@libhater1 Apparently the pentagon and C.I.A. (I think) have done an investigation to try and find evidence that these releases have led to harm and they can't, that is what I am basing my opinion on. As far as the Guantanamo Bay thing, here is a link to one person as an example "Mohammed Hassan Odaini"
there are others but I can't be bothered to look them up for a right-wing conservative asshole
thehellodaisy 1 year ago
@libhater1 Also by the way, how come you are getting so worked up by this, which is the release of actual things that are going on behind closed doors which could be damaging to people, in contrast with for example someone like Glenn Beck who literally makes things up to tell millions of viewers who then believe his out and out plain misinformation, all in order to manipulate them to subscribe to Rupert Murdoch's Conservative agenda. What specific instances are you worried about?
thehellodaisy 1 year ago
TRANSPARENCY WILL SET YOU FREE
bonoboe 1 year ago
ya right you self serving POS
you contradict yourself smile and lie and all is ok in you red coloured sky
You government is the laughing stock of the world now, not the people, the goverment
They have lied,cheated, and decieved the world thier antics are what the rest of the world calls bullying
Exposure of all this info should speed up the movement to get these people out of power, they are destroying your country
we joke here(canada) about your crooked politicians and how money buys anything
coldestcanuk 1 year ago
In one sentence "freedom of the press is more important than life itself" and then later "Obama should take down servers in Iceland". He's a contradicting numb skull. There can't be freedom of the press if the government has a mandate to shut down servers containing info that it doesn't want to the public to hear. Secondly the server is in Iceland, a soverign nation. I'm sure Iceland would have hell to pay if it's government shut down a server in the US.
cardinal1690 1 year ago
@cardinal1690 THere is a difference between freedom of the press and receiving stolen communications. There is a NEED for some secrecy in nearly all things. If you say otherwise, then give me your real bank account number, your real financial information and all of the needed pins etc I would need to access them.
People will DIE because of what Assange did.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich People died BECAUSE no-one with any balls was around in 2003. If Assange and Manning had been around, likely 7000 Coalition of the Killing soldiers and between 150,000 to 1,000,000 innocent Iraqis would still be alive, and three trillion dollars would not be being pissed up against the Green Zone and into the coffers of a corrupt puppet government that wouldn't last a day if the invaders rolled back the way they came.
People DIE because evil men send them to fight wars for oil.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron People died because Saddam lied about his weapons. If you think the deaths were ANYWHERE NEAR 1,000,000 I have some land in Floriday I would love to sell you.Our nations interest was served in getting rid of Saddam and getting rid of terrorists and their supporters EVERYWHERE. I was there, and I also am friends with a family that fled Saddam and his genocidal regime. Saddam MURDERED more people per year than what died when we went in.
WE SAVED innocent Iraqi lives by going in.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Please go to Iraq Body Count, and the International Red Cross. Just because your General's smirk and go "we don't do body counts" doesn't mean that others don't.
What utter BS as well concerning Saddam. Was your 'interest' served in seeing Iran emerge as a regional power going nuclear ? Because that's a DIRECT result of your snafu in Iraqnam.
Saddam "murdered" around 300,000 people over all his years as dictator, 100,000 Kurds, 50,000 Marsh Arabs and 150,000 Shi'ites and opponents.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I get my figures from Iraq body count - yet even they count normal crime deaths that you see in any big city as being because of our presence - so they grossly overestimate the deaths. In addition they blame US for all of the deaths when the VAST majority of innocent deaths are cause by the terrorists!
Your Saddam figures are low. According to MOST sources the body count for Saddam is between 1 and 2 MILLION deaths. 500,000 were due JUST to his scamming the Oil for food program.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Now with those FACTS, we will use your Iraq Body count figures (the high end) and the LOW end of 1,000,000 deaths for Saddam. Saddam was in power for 21 years. 1,000,000 / 21 = 47,619 death per year or 3,968 per month.
Since we went in, according to Iraq Body Count, as of 11:03 am today (Dec. 23) there were 108,281 deaths (high estimate) We have been in Iraq since March 2003 that is 93 months 108,281 / 93 = 1,164 deaths per month. That is nearly a 71% DECREASE in deaths.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich More BS. The FACTS do NOT bear your pathetic neocon spinning out. Saddam was a bastard, but he didn't kill anywhere near what he's attributed by the sly agencies that have sucked your mind out.
Your Masters lump in the death-toll of the Iran/Iraq war and the deaths theorized to have been caused by starvation during the US and British embargo. Then they multiply by 2 and throw in some extra zeros, and someone who is gullible MAY just fall for it.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Iran - Iraq war was nearly (or even exceeding) the figure I used ALL BY ITSELF. According to all of the Human rights groups out there - they pretty much all say that 500,000 children were STARVED to death while Oil-for-food was being plundered by Saddam. The Al-Anfal campaign was good for a couple of hundred thousand deaths. So yes they DID lump those in but THEY SHOULD - Saddam was responsible and PURPOSELY so in ALL of them. So quit acting like he wasn't responsible for them.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich So you're happy to blame Saddam directly for all the deaths, yet when I mention that none of the deaths post 2003 would have happened had you not illegally invaded Iraq, thus are entirely at the responsibility of YOUR invasion forces and the mindless neocon muppets like Bremer, that's somehow not "accurate" ?
You hypocrisy does you dishonor.
Bremer disbanded the Iraq army and police, and your pillage of Iraq opened the gate to civil war and criminality. No-one else was responsible.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Part of the STATED reasons for us going it was to STOP this Genocide but all you America haters want to concentrate on is the WMD's that were not found.
And AS I JUST PROVED, us going in DECREASED the death toll by at LEAST 71% - in fact HUNDREDS of thousands of innocent Iraqi's are alive today BECAUSE we went in. So yes I will BLAME us directly for keeping those hundreds of thousand from meeting their end at the hands of Saddam.
You might want to THANK us now.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich More rubbish, Todd. Are you incapable of seeing even simple, self-evident reality ? No WAY in a million years could the situation in Iraq pre-invasion be compared to the utter fubar POST invasion. Despite the embargo and continued presence of Saddam, Iraq was one of the more progressive of ALL the Muddle East nations, with only Israel standing higher in the quality of life and some semblance of democracy and open government.
Very, very few Iraqis will thank you at all.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Oh, I know!!!! Iraq was a paragon of freedom under Saddam!!! Tell that to THESE people. usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterrorDOThtml
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, Iraq was a dictatorship like all Muddle Eastern nations, but one who paid less lip service to "democracy" than the others. Look at the Saudis. Free elections ? Ha ha ! The Egyptians ? Free and democratic elections ? LOL ! Iran had elections, too. See how "democratic" they are ?
Your propaganda from USAid is woeful. Destroy a nation, terrorize people who've never harmed you, then offer them some candy and Mickey schoolbooks. Electricity, fresh water ? Ha ha. Fuck off.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Iraq is FAR better off now that we have gotten rid of Saddam - in just about every measurable way.
Electricity and fresh water included - you information on those is about 6 years out of date.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich It's YOU who needs to get "up to date", Todd.
"Seven years after the U.S.-led invasion, Iraqis are taking to the streets to demand basic services they have not received, despite many promises and the expenditure of billions of dollars by the U.S. and Iraqi governments."
This was from the WaPo, June 2010. Hardly a "Left-wing" paper.
Please read the 2010 UNESCO report of YOUR FUCKING FUBAR mess concerning the nigh-on inexistent water supplies. Even Saddam wasn't as crap as you.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron They have more access now than they had while Saddam was in power. That is simply a FACT. The fact that they CAN protest is a TRIBUTE to our success. In the comparatively few cases where they do have extended shortages - MOST of it is due the the TERRORISTS destroying their facilities!!!! But then, YOU don't care about the truth, all you want is to demonize America.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich More bullshit, and ANY Iraqi will tell this to you straight to your face.
The "terrorists" are there UNIQUELY because some bungling putzes invaded the wrong nation and then FUBAR'd the entire administration of the shattered nation. What nation was that, Todd ? Iran ? Saudi Arabia ? France ? Iceland ?
Who do YOU think the blame for the collapse and descent into chaos and anarchy of Iraq belongs to ?
I'm sure you'll say the Iraqi people.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Nope.Bush did not plan properly AND he listened to the liberals in our country who urged him not to have too big of a footprint. THEN once things started going bad, the rules of engagement prevented us from getting the bad guys while they were still weak.It was still the right thing to do AND we saved thousands of lives by doing so.But then you probably think those people weren't worth saving. To people like you, their only value is when you can use them to demonize the U.S.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich MORE BULLSHIT !! It was Rumsfeld and Perle who insisted that they didn't need that many troops, DESPITE the advice of virtually ALL the GenStaff.
"Mr Powell said he had warned President Bush over dinner in August 2002 that the problem with Iraq was not going to be the invasion but what followed.
He told him: "This place will crack like a goblet and it will be a problem to pick up the bits."
He was right. Your snafu CREATED the chaos, and is responsible for all the deaths.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron UM, I don't think I said anything to contradict this.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@allieron Way to excuse a mass murdering genocidal dictator!!!! Given your track record, I'd bet Hitler was just a victim of U.S. propaganda also!!!
Terrorists supporter.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, Todd. YOU'RE the "terrorist" supporter. You maintained, along with us, Hussein in power because he was OUR dictator, until he did his own thing, just as you overthrew democracies and installed dictators to keep the valuable resources flowing the world over. Reagan supplied arms to the mullahs and financed the terrorist Contras, who are now the drug runners filling the veins of your youths. You armed and trained the Mujahideen and OBL, and now "Blowback's a bitch"...
Understand ?
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Oh yeah, Hitler was also funded by people like Prescott Bush and Ford, Rockefeller, the Dulles and many of the "Old Money" Right-wing scum you currently pimp for, because he made the trains run on time.
See "The nazi hydra in America" and look who was mentioned in the "Trading with the enemy" act.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Ah the old Prescott Bush Canard. Let me enlighten you on this. Prescott Bush was the manager of a BRANCH office of a DIVISION of a large company whose main owner gave money to Hitler in the 1930's- before Hitler became HITLER. After Hiter showed his true nature (@ 1940) Theissen CUT HITLER OFF and spent the rest of the war HIDING from Hitler - until he was caught and sent to Hitlers prisons. Blaming Bush is like blaming the local Kmart manger for Stock fraud in the Sears boadroom.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Read the "Nazi Hydra in America", and look at the closeness of the nazi regime and the funders and backers of them. Read Attorney John Loftus's investigation into how Herbert Walker and Prescott Bush's oily hands dipped deep into the bloody guts of fascism. Of course, it was all for money and power, the ideology was superfluous. The fact millions died was "just one of those things", much as it was in Iraq.
allieron 1 year ago
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@allieron I suppose that next you will want me to read the "Protocols of Zion"
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ToddAldrich Why would I want you to read a Czarist secret-police forgery ?
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron And yet you act as if all of the Deaths on Iraq Body Count were deaths by American Soldiers!
A large amount of them were because normal murders and traffic accidents that occur in EVERY city on earth, yet they STILL find there way into the IBC data. THEN you act as if WE are the ones killing the innocents! WE are the ones trying to STOP the terrorists from killing them! Do you blame the police when a gang goes on a killing spree???
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich There were NO terrorists in Iraq BEFORE you went in on your idiot neocon crusade. Iraq was a hard place because these nations are. Saddam was a prick, but then, show me a dictator or hard man that isn't. The Saudis are worse than he was, and if you think their hands are merely stained with oil, you've got another think coming. Your idiot actions have completely destabilized an already shaky region, and given birth to the neocons deepest desire; Eternal War, and a nebulous "enemy".
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron So take your self-righteous BULLSHIT and spread it elsewhere. You just want to spread hate towards American -NO MATTER WHAT the actual facts are.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich I don't hate America. I hate fascism, and the mindless happy-clapping of belligerent tools like you, behind which your sly Masters leer and gloat, frotting their hands as the shades of War, Death, Disease and Famine follow your pathetic pontificating for the beauty of your weapons and try to justify the unjustifiable.
I've given you the facts, if you can't handle them, I'm unsurprised. You're programmed to follow, not lead.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron In other words, you hate America so much - that you are willing to set aside truth and fact in order to disparage her by projecting onto her the darkest traits of your own soul.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich I've also made it quite clear that I do NOT hate America, but I hate fascism and illegal empire building. I'd hate it if it was the Chinese, or the Russians, or us, and I hate that it's you who have fallen into the clutches of the "Vulcans" and their lust for a Neo American Century, or Reich. Whatever.
You were used as gullible cannon-fodder and half-wit, heavily-armed tools by sly men in high places to further a heist of America that SHOULD have had you up in arms in defense.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Here is reality BUCKO. You support terrorists. You support Hamas, who targets innocent women and children - and THEN you have the fucking nerve to condemn those who are trying to put an end to it. In Iraq, you do the obligatory "Saddam was a bad guy" but the US - who put a STOP to his GENOCIDE is the REAL bad guy. You are confronted with the FACT that the VAST majority of innocent deaths in IRaq are due to TERRORISTS - and you have the GALL to blame those who try to stop them.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich More BS. The "terrorists" in Iraq exist UNIQUELY because you invaded a nation you didn't understand, led by utterly incompetent morons with oil in their eyes, you destroyed an infrastructure and offered ONLY chaos in its place, then looked "surprised" that it turned to shit ?
Hamas are pricks, but they target wherever possible military targets, but you won't hear that, because that makes them look legit, and Willy-Pete is easier to dump on "terrorists" than terrified civilians.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I was NOT Cannon - Fodder. I had FRIENDS Murdered by Saddam - LONG before we went in.
You are being controlled by those who actually PURPOSELY target innocents and you have the gall to ME Gullible?
If you REALLY hated Fascism, you would CHEER us ending Saddam's truly fascist reign. But instead you condemn those who STOPPED it.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Rubbish. Saddam was an asshole, but we SUPPORTED him until he got cocky. He was NO WORSE than the Saudis or any of the other bloated petro-leaders in this god-forsaken sandy hell on the asshole of the planet.
The only one being "controlled" here Todd is you. Look at the bigger picture.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron We supported Saddam UNTIL he started using Chemical Weapons. Rumsfeld's trip to Iraq was to warn Saddam about using them. You will note that after this meeting and Saddam's refusal to end their use, our relations rapidly deteriorated.
He was FAR worse than the Saudi's - they didn't commit genocide.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich More BS. The blame for the ChemWep use was laid on Iran, but you KNEW damn well he was using them. Rummie was there to supply MORE arms (see the declassified Senate report) and offer satellite intel, not to whine about illegal weapon use. The Iranians also likely used area-denial chem weapons.
The Saudis finance most of the radical terrorist groups. They MAY not pull the triggers (although the tribal areas of SA disprove this..) but they fund them for "genocide".
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron The Blame was not laid on Iran. Saddam TRIED to but only to cover/excuse his own use. I saw the declassified report and he went there to allow AID in terms of vaccines and intelligence. The memos of the report CLEARLY show he was to warn against further use of Chemical weapons. Go read your report again. Saudi nationals fund much terror, but the government does not fund Genocide.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Please read the meticulously documented and totally foot-noted with official archives article here. "Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein: The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984. National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82".
Feel ABSOLUTELY free to read in Rummie's own words what he whispered into Saddam's ear.
Saudi nationals make up the Saudi government.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Been there, done that. Shaking hands with Saddam is my source for the PROOF that Rumsfeld was instructed to warn Saddam to stop. But then I read each and every memo - not the "analysis" of the memo's that was PURPOSELY composed to try and demonize the US.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich What ?? Look at the manifesto of weapons and POTENTIAL weapons delivered to Saddam (often by quite circuitous routes..) AFTER Don Rummy had pressed-the-flesh. Does that look like an admonishment of Saddam's naughtiness ?
You are demonized because you damn well went looking for it.
allieron 1 year ago
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@allieron Not true. You OBVIOUSLY haven't read the memos and communique's on this topic.
Go read your OWN source.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Also, to whimper that you "saved" innocent lives going in is beyond pathetically ignorant.
IBC lists DOCUMENTED civilian death from Operation Iraqi Liberty as over 100,000. Iraqi military deaths are far, far higher.
Every other source, from the WHO to the surveys of Iraqi households, puts the average well above the Saddam-era figure. Those who claim Saddam's toppling made life safer for Iraqis have a lot of explaining to do.
allieron 1 year ago
Ralph Peters hasn't got his facts straight - the only terrorists that are coming out of the Wikileads cables and thank god there's some transparent truth in the release of these cables alone - Is the US Government. Documents released show pandemic corruption by the US Government on a worldwide scale. Jeez I hope he exposes the tragic saga of the 9/11 attacks and who was really behind them that should silence the doubters in the USA. RP is dangerously defamatory as well.
SAMSONEATSFROGS 1 year ago 2
What a joke .. Ralph Peters hasn't got his facts straight - the only terrorists that are coming out of the Wikileads cables and thank god there's some transparent truth in the release of these cables alone - Is the US Government. Documents released show pandemic corruption by the US Government on a worldwide scale. Jeez I hope he exposes the tragic saga of the 9/11 attacks and who was really behind them that should silence the doubters in the USA. RP is dangerously defamatory as well.
SAMSONEATSFROGS 1 year ago
What a joke .. Ralph Peters hasn't got his facts straight - the only terrorists that are coming out of the Wikileads cables and thank god there's some transparent truth in the release of these cables alone - Is the US Government. Documents released show pandemic corruption by the US Government on a worldwide scale. Jeez I hope he exposes the tragic saga of the 9/11 attacks and who was really behind them that should silence the doubters in the USA. RP is dangerously defamatory as well.
SAMSONEATSFROGS 1 year ago
@theoryspecialist And if you have me blocked, then you wouldn't know my posts were disjointed OR 4 pages! I have only responded to you 3 or 4 times - and with fairly short responses.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@theoryspecialist Boo hoo!
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@theoryspecialist Obviously you are reading this, and every single post of mine is a response to someone ELSE who was reading it. (that would explain the fragmentation).
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@theoryspecialist Nope. If someone comes along and reads the nonsense you morons post here, without refutation, they might be swayed. People need to know the truth.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Yet you have NO "truth", Todd. Merely the same neoconned bullshit that dragged you into Iraqnam in the first place. Everything you have as "justification" for your crimes is lies, spin and bullshit, and the nett result of your complete FUBAR mess of Operation Iraqi Liberty (OIL...) has been Iran growing atomic balls, the Islamic hardline getting a big boner with plenty of vigorous young sperms swimming in the funk looking to be used, and a mega clusterfuck of EPIC proportions.
Doh !
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron It is not I who lied about the Iraqi war resolution.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@theoryspecialist So I can expect you to turn over your REAL address, ALL of your financial information and how I can access it??
I assume you also support Assange turning over all the information he has on his supporters - where his money comes from, who his sources are etc.
I also assume that all of his supporters should make all of their private information public also, RIGHT???
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich You see why you look like a clueless moron ? The simple fact that you're incapable of abstracting and understanding that private records are NOT the same as state secrets and coverups. No-one cares if you withdrew 40 bucks from the BoA ATM on West 4th for a BJ on the way home from work, but they DO care about a combat helicopter whacking civilians in an illegal war.
If you can't understand this, then you're either an idiot, or a COINTELPRO drone.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I thought you were all for openess and transparency.
Mr. Hypocrite.
Oh, and LOON.
If you guys are SOOO into transparancy, why can you not live by the same rules you want applied to others???
What are you better than everyone else so the rules don't apply to you and your ilk??
I mean come on man, have a little consistancy. If you expect others to be transparent, you should be also.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich The difference, and this is an important one, is that I do not currently have my massively expensive army engaged in an illegal three TRILLION dollar war and am busy fucking up nations I do NOT understand and I do NOT belong in, and I am also NOT a vast, secretive, fascist-leaning nation of gullible, propaganda-blinded idiots waving its bloated military cock around and doing dumb shit to the planet.
I hope that's clear enough for you to understand ?
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I understand allright.
You want you and people like Assange to be able to live by different rules than you insist others live by. Of course YOU have only good intentions and only want to do good! How very um, fascist of you.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@allieron Illegal war? Right. Kook.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich The only "kook" is you, Todd.
"the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter." UN Sec.Gen. Kofi Annan.
HJ Res. 114 is what you base your ignorance on, I'm sure, but if you read Section 3, paragraph B, Bush was required to prove to the Congress that Iraq was in violation of UN Resolutions by still being in possession of weapons of mass destruction, and secondly, that Iraq was behind 9-11. Doh ! Neither was true. All lies.
You are a gullible sucker.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron
I would suggest you re-read the resolution. There is no mention of WMD's.
Besides, Iraq committed MULTIPLE acts of war against us. ANY SINGLE ONE justified us going to war.
They fired on our planes frequently (locking on to them with SAM missiles is considered firing on them) ANY single instance is justification, yet we forgave this on a regular basis until 2003.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
I should say there is no mention of WMD's in Section 3 where the pre-requisites are listed.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich How about you re-read the whole thing, and see if you can get an idea who was drumming like crazed dervishes for war in Congress....
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron How about you tell the truth! There was absolutely NO REQUIREMENT for WMD's in the Iraqi war resolution, NOR was there a requirement for proof of a 9-11 connection.
There were requirements and amonst them were requirements for Iraq being judged as a threat OR having connections to SOME terrorist groups (amongst others) - but nothing was mentioned about WMD's and a connection to 9-11 was not a requirement.
In other words, you lied.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Iraq was NO threat. Iraq had NO ties to active terrorist groups engaged in campaigns against American citizens or interests.
The ONLY problem Iraq posed was that were going to start trading oil in Euros and they were NOT going to sell YOU oil.
The whole WMD/9-11 connection which was used as the ONLY justification for the ILLEGAL war was based totally on lies and spin.
Who was the "Office of Special Plans" and what did they do, and for who ?
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron The President NEVER said that there was a connection to 9-11. Iraq WAS a threat as long as Saddam was in power. He is on record saying (to, I believe his son-in law who later defected (and then returned only to be murdered by Saddam)) he was going to give weapons to third parties for the specific purpose of attacking us but avoiding the blame. In addition he ABSOLUTELY funded terrorists and gave rewards to the families of suicide bombers.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich More BS. It's like verbal diarrhea.
watch?v=IJiNtpIpD6k
Iraq was NO threat with Saddam in power, and Saddam expected "business as usual" with America to resume once the sanctions had ended.
Kamel al-Hussein also said "I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons—biological, chemical, missile, nuclear—were destroyed." after the end of Oil War 1. There was NO talk at all of giving NBC weapons to anyone, because they had ALL been destroyed.
The UN had done its job well.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Then why did Hans Blix say, merely weeks before we went in, that Saddam had confiscated a document that PROVED that Iraq had far more VX gas than he addmitted to, it was more refined, it was weaponized and was NOT destroyed - an amount of 1000 TONS of VX gas.
Why did the ISG say there was sufficiently credible evidence that the WMD's went to Syria. Why did the 2nd in command of the Iraqi Air Force admit that they gutted jumbo jets and filled them with WMD's and sent them to Syria?
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Bullshit, you fucking liar.
"While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered."
Google "CIA WMD final report".
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron What do you think the ISG report I mentioned IS?!?!?!
You better read the whole report, instead of the parts the media cherry picked to undermine the Bush Administration.
Also, please tell me where the VX gas that Hans Blix mentioned in his Jan 27th address is then. There were 1000 tonnes that are unaccounted for.
Also, show me where the 2nd in command of the Iraqi Air Force has retracted his statement.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Further, you lying POS, NOTHING got out of Iraq, and certainly NOT in 747's, of which Iraq had only one, and that's been in mothballs in Jordan since 1990.
The story you are believing is based on Evangelical Christian George Sada's nonsense to launch his book (initially called "Buy me, gullible Right-wingers"...) and has been totally discredited.
RESEARCH YOUR SOURCES !!!!!
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron The ISG report is the SAME report YOU quoted you moron - and Sada's account is backed up by other generals.
In addition, WHERE is the 1000 tonnes of VX??? The UN chief inspector says they are still missing.
You should quit building strawmen and deal with what I actually said.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
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allieron 1 year ago
@allieron More strawmen??? I don't recall mentioning Sarin.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Listen very carefully, Todd, because it's obvious that you know SFA.
VX, like Sarin is a massively complicated weaponized gas to manufacture and stock. It can ONLY be stored in binary form, and then ONLY for maximum 10 years in careful storage. It is useless otherwise unless used rapidly. Saddam stopped making it in 1988, because it is NOT very useful against an army, only civilians and soft targets without NBC capacity.
Clear ?
allieron 1 year ago
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@allieron And just so you know, the very definition of binary is that it is NOT a weapon yet, it has to be combined with another agent to become the weapon.
The PURPOSE of making it binary is so that it is STABLE and so that it does NOT degrade.
But then again, I did not mention Sarin
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Sarin AND VX are used in artillery shells and dumb-bombs, and are maintained in binary form 10 years max. As I said, VX by itself lasts, in good conditions of optimal storage, 4 months maximum. After that, it's useless, and to produce it requires a sophisticated and specialized lab with trained engineers and chemists.
This is why it was stopped as a program in 1988, and the stocks destroyed. It serves NO battlefield use against an NBC-equipped army.
allieron 1 year ago
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ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@allieron your shelf life figures are for once they are combined. In their binary form they are stable.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, Todd, they are NOT. Even in binary form, they have a shelf-life in optimal storage of ten years. There were some sarin-filled shells found that had been dumped in a pit by the Iraqis, two of which had been rigged as IED's by the Iraqi Resistance, but the only way they would have been deadly is if you ate them or had them fall on your head.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Hey moron, I was NOT talking about Sarin - or the few scattered weapons found in pits etc.
You are doing nothing other than creating strawmen.
You have not read the complete Duelfer report - or you would have known that the movement of WMD to syria was quoted from that very report. I am using YOUR sources. And you are obviously ignorant of the nature of binary weapons. The entire purpose of them in binary form is so the DON'T degrade - and it works.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich I quote you the report exactly, then.
""It was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD from Iraq to Syria took place before the war."
That frontier was sewn up tighter than a fishes ass, and the difficulty in shipping chem weapons by road without leaks OR discovery OR some of it going "missing" is massive.
You are NOT the only ones with spy satellites, either, and the distinctive trace of chem weapons has NEVER been found, nor has ANYONE come forward with proof.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Did you miss the word "official"?
There was no paperwork - but there was evidence of it. First off, most of the movement if it occurred, would have been done BEFORE we went in - or in the early days when we were NOT even in the area. In addition even when we were there and it was "sewn up tighter than a fishes ass" - like the Iranian border - Weapons being used against us seemed to have no trouble getting through.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Damn, but you're stupid. What is SatIntel ? What were SAS and SOG and JSOC doing in the frontier area between Syria and Iraq prior to the war ?
The NeoCon's had put everything they had into convincing gullible fools like you and your leaders that there were WMD, the LAST thing they would allow is for them to just drive away over the border.
The Iranian border is totally different in it's length and complexity. Just do some simple research.
Jeez.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron If they were that intent on propagating a lie, it would have been VERY easy to plant them - yet they did not.
You say the border was impassable yet MILLIONS of guns, explosives and other military material made it through and into the hands of those fighting against us.
That is a REAL TIGHT border!!!! LOL.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Again, just think. Iraq was under VERY close observation. NBC weapons are easily traceable, and not all Americans are stupid. Sneaking in "Drop" WMD would involve too many people, and be to open to international scrutiny, the neocons had failed to discredit totally the UN, and not every high-level American played oil-ball with their gung-ho philosophy.
Most of the weapons used against you came from arms dumps the Marines forgot to guard as they rushed to protect the Ministry of Oil.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Bullshit. Most of the arms were smuggled in via Iran and Syria.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Rubbish. No, but seriously, do you realize how stupid you sound ? Ammunition has likely been smuggled in, although you lost huge amounts due to your clumsiness, and the arms dumps were left unguarded for weeks while the Marines guarded the Ministry of Oil and looted Saddam's palaces looking for "proof" of WMD (none found, BTW...)
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Not at all, the borders were porous, BOTH ways, arms absolutely made it in, and that means chemicals could also make their way out.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No it DOESN'T. Unless your satellites, drones, reconnaissance and AWACs and Special Forces, the British Special Forces, Jordanian, Iranian and Syrian border-guards are all completely useless, that is...
You're trying the same bullshit as the Team-B crap. "Because we can't detect Russian submarines, that means they must be there with secret undetectable engines, despite NO proof via our intel networks, which just means they're REALLY well hidden..."
And it was ALL bullshit, too.
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Also, IF Iran had been supplying the Resistance with weapons, you would have had Apaches and transport aircraft falling out of the sky taken down with Strela 3's and Mithaqs, MRAP's blown inside-out by RPG-29's and thermobaric rounds making FOB casualties impressive. EFP damage would be far greater, and your com systems would have had a beating. None of that happened.
Iran has a good, solid and advanced weapons program. None of it has been seen in Iraq.
Again, post proof, for lulz.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Here you go.
It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE but morons like you will do anything to deny the truth.
washingtonpostDOTcom/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/02/AR2007060201020DOThtml
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Of course substitute . for DOT -- THere are two.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Still doesn't work. But I guess I know what it refers too, and that's wrong, as well. The mortar rounds were not Iranian (wrong markings) and an EFP is easy to make once you know how. Iraq has plenty of shells lying around.
Google this. "U.S. Task Force Found Few Iranian Arms in Iraq By Gareth Porter".
If Iran had been supplying arms and Quds training, you'd have a LOT more KIA to drape flags over.
Seriously, try non-neocon sources for TRUTH. It's not too late.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Try reading REAL sources. Raw Story and your leftist kook sites don't count.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich The source was the US Army. I guess they don't count ?
Get your shit together, Todd, and get informed.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron What a joke. People like Assange will guarantee that distrust between nations prevails and that War will be the only answer.
I will return to where I started. There is a legitimate reason for nations to keep things private - just like there are legitimate reasons for YOU to keep some things private.
There was NOTHING in the leaks that showed ANYTHING criminal - just things that destroy trust between nations. That is something we need MORE of, not less.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Again, I disagree. Have you read the telegrams ? The problem is the arrogant and condescending tone, more than anything else, as well as the exposure of NOT very good diplomacy. Overall, though, there is nothing that any informed advisor would find shocking, although the spying on the UN is pretty sick.
Assange's insistence, and I agree, is that you've styled yourselves as THE moral examples, and as such you should behave like it, not like a bunch of conniving, arrogant schmucks.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Of course you excuse Assange for publishing the NAMES of our sources against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Those people were helping to end terrorist attacks on innocent people. Now they not only will be useless as sources (and will lead to more bad intelligence like we had in Iraq), but they and their families are in MORTAL danger.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Nonsense, Todd. If you think the Taliban don't KNOW who aids the Americans, then you need to go and study some of that "Hearts-and-Minds" COIN gumpf.
If the Taliban were a foreign invader, then it may make sense, but they're people FROM those villages, and they know who's aiding you, just as those who aid you know who the Taliban are.
Assange asked the Pentagon to redact the notes to protect names and sources, in their arrogance, they refused. Your ball.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron You are flat wrong on that. The Taliban did NOT know many of those helping us - you flat don't know what you are talking about. Of course they do NOW, and we don't have the intelligence gathering ability we had before.
You say Assange asked the PENTAGON to redact the notes??? The pentagon had no control!!! They asked HIM not to release them! He is the one that could have done such.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich What destroys trust is the absence of straight-talk. If you can't be honest and forthright, then what's the point ? Some honest, a bit of humble-pie, and you'd get epic things done. Look at Kennedy, even Obama. They're wildly popular everywhere else on the planet. Why ? Because they spoke from the heart, and weren't unbearable idiots like Bush or hideous fascists like Bolton and Cheney.
You have a massive position of force, yet Bolton abused this and pissed off ALL your allies.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Bolton was just about the only one who actually spoke the truth. All Obama has done is pander, and you can see how successful that is with Iran and North Korea. He is a JOKE.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Bolton has been full of shit from the day he was born. Of all PNAC and AEI neocon madmen who ruined America, he's the most annoying. It's interesting you complain that American diplomats often condescending comments should remain "secret" so as not offend, yet don't mind the brash arrogance and single-minded zeal with which Bolton restarted the NK nuke program and tried to reboot the Gold War for his arms company backers ?
Why is that ?
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron The NK nukes were being built before Bolton gained his office. You can thank Jimmy Carter and Clinton for that. The idea that they were under control before Bolton is ludicrous.
Bolton understands just who is enabling the anti-American forces. Those people who the left want to like us, are playing people like you for fools - INCLUDING our President. They are merely using the UN and our gullibility and desire for peace to gain an advantage.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, again you're wrong. It was Carter in 1994 that caused the abandonment of the NK nuke program, although whether this was ever fully stopped is open for debate, but the belligerence of Bush and Bolton rebooted it, just as the invasion of Iraq spurred the Iranians into choosing a hardliner rather than the moderate who was thought to be "too weak" in an obvious US push to create a three-front war-zone.
Again, the RAD manifesto had been read AND understood by many. Iran was next..
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron It is NOT open for debate. CLINTON and CARTER gave NK the ability to create Nuclear weapons. They stopped NOTHING. There is no way that they could have advanced as quickly as they did UNLESS they spent the whole time builing the capabilty.
All Bolton and Bush did was bring it out into the open.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Again, rubbish. Look it up. The DoD has declassified a lot of the data.
Please also look at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. They have a clear, simple and referenced timeline. Look hard at who is feeding you the BULLSHIT about Carter and Clinton. You will find not ONE credible source, but you WILL find neocon scum. Lots of them, all whining and deflecting, obfuscating, like you do, about how it's not THEIR fault...but in fact, it is.
Read up.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Bolton merely points out that we have had these negotiations in the past, and part of our Negotiations with Russia were that they actually HELP stop Iranian nuclear advancement. Instead, they HELP Iran bypass the UN. You demonize Bolton because he insists that we not get taken advantage of. Apparently you think WE must kiss everyone else's ass - even while they are spitting in our face.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No. No, I completely disagree with this. The problem is the belligerence of Bolton, and his not-so-secret agenda. International diplomacy is a frustrating thing sometimes, but the Bolton way has Epic Failed in EVERY case. The entire neocon project, which I'm not ashamed to say I supported once, has been an utter failure, and has CREATED far more problems than it resolved, almost as if that was the underlying aim in the first instance.
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Also, my idea of American diplomacy ? "Speak softly and carry a big stick".
You have the big stick, and no-one anywhere on the planet will contest that, but the REAL measure of force and the quality of a nation that SHOULD be looked up to is it's restraint.
The UN is the perfect vehicle for a REAL peace-keeping AND maintaining role, but finks like Bolton undermine it for his OWN goals and frankly fascist empire-building aims.
His tunnel-vision of a neo American Reich is the problem.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron The UN has been taken over by groups and countries that have no interest in real peace. It has been reduced to nothing more than a conduit to fleece America and to blame us for all of the problems in the world.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, again, I don't think so. Look beyond the hyperbole and the frankly shameless propaganda I KNOW you read and really look hard at the UN. They're the first ones to admit they need reform, and reform is continuous, but the positive outweighs massively the negative.
The NeoCon's hate the UN, because it is fair and balanced, and favors diplomacy and the UN Declaration of Rights, Justice and the rule of impartial Law. As such, it interferes with American hegemony, just as it should.
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich what a joke of a comment.
mixmastermurf 1 year ago
@mixmastermurf Sorry. Truth is truth.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich An age-old adage, and one worthy of Obama, is "Speak softly but carry a big stick."
People WANT to trust you, and WANT to like you, even after all the shit the neocons put us through, but it won't work if you persist on allowing vacuous traitors like Lieberman to fuck your Constitution and goose-step around sneering "Death to Free Speech and the First Amendment."
Trust is earned, not given .
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I find it amazing how you lefties say that WE gave him the WMD's when what we gave him were vaccines and other "dual use" items. Yet when we FOUND dual use items in weapons (that we didn't give him) and suddenly we cannot use them as proof because they were "dual use".
I find it amazing that dual use pesticides stored in the same facilities as empty warheads get pooh - poohed. I personally saw those.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich The pesticides you "saw" were just that. Pesticide. Iraq is, or was, once the fertile crescent, and pesticide use is widespread. BECAUSE it can also be used as an explosive, Saddam insured that it was stocked at military depots under guard of trusted lieutenants, so that anyone hostile to his regime had no easy access to supplies. There was nothing sinister, nor dual purpose to its existence in arms dumps.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Yeah, sure. I like how you excuse Saddam when he stored dual use Chemical weapons - nerve gas no less, STORED in the same facility as empty chemical weapons warheads - if the chemicals had been IN the warheads there would be no doubt, yet they were in the same facility, merely minutes from being in warhead if they wanted, yet you jump to all sorts of GUILTY charges when there is no proof whatsoever in regards to Cheney.
Nice double standard.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Rubbish. Proof please. Nothing less than a DoD document PROVING this.
I know you can't, because it doesn't exist.
Stop lying, we've had enough BS from you neoconned tools.
So you don't believe Dick Armey ? How about you ask him yourself. He's on record as exposing Cheney's lies, and he's NOT the only one.
"CHENEY (August 26, 2002): "But we now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons."
BS, BS, BS...
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron The PESTICIDES ARE A TYPE OF NERVE GAS. No one disputes they were there. YOU admitted they were there!
I believe Armey, but because Cheney believed bad information does not mean he lied.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Cheney KNEW the information was false. He had total oversight to Feith, Perle and Wurmser's agitations. He was so "in the loop" that he formed the center.
The pesticides were there, no problem. But they were PESTICIDES. Weaponizing that shit is NOT easy. They COULD have been made into weapons, or they could have sprayed tomatoes.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Cheney Knew??? I did not know you had ESP.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich If you'd bothered to read "Rebuilding Americas Defences (and fucking up everybody elses...)" you'd now that WHATEVER the results of ALL the spy intel, Cheney was going ahead regardless.
Our DGSE, which had ears all the way in to the top echelons of Saddam's inner circle KNEW there where no WMD, which is why we REFUSED to caution the folly of Iraqnam. We shared all the sources and intel we had, but Cheney refused it all. His mind was made up, and the Great Neocon Leap Assward began.
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Further, you people jeer at Truthers, saying that such an endeavor as 9/11 could NOT have been carried out by select members of a cabal high in the US power circle because "someone would have talked", yet unblinkingly accept that vast quantities of WMD were shifted under ALL the eyes of the World community ?
Sada "talked" because he wanted a ticket to the West and cash. He found the same eager, gullible idiots like you that Chalabi had. Can you blame him for lying to you ?
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I am not gullible at all, I am simply fighting your allegation that Bush lied. There is no evidence of that.
The WMD's are a side issue that is undetermined - but to quote Duelfer there is "sufficiently credible evidence to investigate further". We never were permitted to investigate further.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Bush was led to believe, just as you and most of your compatriots were, that WMD existed. Cheney KNEW it was BS, as did most Intel agencies planet-wide, but it fitted in perfectly with the Greater Middle East project that had been floating around CENTCOM for years, spawned by the sly Think-Tanks on K-street and people like Peters. It was a great excuse, and even the doubters guessed they'd find SOME sort of WMD. But there was nothing.
Saddam was a shit, but is it better now ? No.
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Oh yeah, Inspector Duelfer said this, too.
"we had some intel that perhaps some materials had been moved there. We looked as closely as we could at that, there were a few leads which we were not able to fully run down, largely because of the security situation, but it's my judgment that had substantial stocks, important stocks been moved to Syria, someone would have told something to us about that. So I have a lot of confidence that basically the picture is as you reflected it."
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron I am not trying to be definative on the movement of WMD's - but they went somewhere, and there is no evidence of their destruction.
Again, where is the 1000 TONS of VX?
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich They were DESTROYED, and there was NO "1000 tons of VX." Ever.
allieron 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Also, this is why chem weapons are NOT used unless rapid manufacture and deployment facilities are available, and why the blah-blah by the OSP and the rambling of Sada was nonsense.
The TWO reports, the Duelfer and the more overall follow-up of the ISG report, chaired by Baker, as well as the UNMOVIC final report are conclusive. No WMD. None. No 747's transporting them, no trucks, nothing got out.
You whimper I'M a "conspiracy nut", yet YOU'RE the "connedspiracy" nut here.
LOL.
allieron 1 year ago
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ToddAldrich 1 year ago
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ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Read the Duelfer report, and the VX, like the Sarin has been found and accounted for. 150 to 200 tons could still, however, not be PRECISELY accounted for due to its dispersion and burning in 1989, hence your confusion and the delight of your neocon justifiers, but it had likely been disposed of by burning and scattering in pits as Saddam instructed.
Read the UNMOVIC final report and the Senate Intel Committee report of 2008.
Open your eyes this time, though.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Sorry no it hasn't been. The Duelfer report IS the ISG report.
We are just supposed to take Saddams word for it - right - and the amount is 1000 tonnes, not a couple hundred.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, the Duelfer report and the final ISG report are NOT the same thing.
The ISG is the 2006 report, whereas the Duelfer is the 2004 report
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron You might want to retract that statement.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich
Read;
Iraq Survey Group Final Report (Duelfer report) 30 September 2004
The round-up and overview; ISG Baker-Hamilton Commission Report
Read the SSCI report (July 2004) and SSCI Phase II (June 2008)
Read also "The Failure of British Political and Military Leadership in Iraq" by Adam Holloway, "At the Center of the Storm" by George Tenet, as well as "Iraq Confidential: The Untold Story of the Intelligence Conspiracy to Undermine the UN and Overthrow Saddam Hussein" by Ritter.
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Finally, since this began with your support for Assange, and given that Assanges MAIN goal was to undermine the US's efforts in Iraq,
Where are the documents showing this great conspiracy - surely your hero, Assange, could have found SOMETHING that proved Bush lied.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich No, again you misunderstand. Assange's GOAL with Wikileaks is to expose lies, corruption and ethical dishonesty in ALL nations. He is NON-PARTISAN, and why it seems he's focused on the US is because you're currently the ONLY nation invading others based on lies and shady deals.
Further, most of your leaders EXPECTED to find WMD, so comprehensive was the propaganda by the neocons and INC. You were all fooled, but only waterboarding Cheney will show you by how much.
allieron 1 year ago
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ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@allieron And yet not a bit of proof to back up your claims that Cheney lied. Multiple investigations by hostile parties and yet ---- Nothing.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Please read "Angler, the Cheney Vice Presidency" by Barton Gellman. Just ONE part.
"Dick Armey (R) had spoken out against the war. Cheney was trying to change his mind. So the vice president told him the threat from Iraq was actually "more imminent than we want to portray to the public at large." In Armey's account, Cheney told him:
"Iraq's "ability to miniaturize weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear," had been "substantially refined since the first Gulf War,"
Truth ?
allieron 1 year ago
@allieron Bad information brought on by the left destroying our intelligence capabilities.
You DO know that we were pretty much FORCED to rely on "curve ball" because the left here pretty much fired our human sources of information and made recruiting new sources nearly impossible. They also de-funded our intelligence agencies. It was not Cheney's fault.
ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Wha....!!!??? Are you stupid ? Do you know who pimped Curveball on you ? Who was the INC, and who backed and supported them ? Who petitioned Clinton to invade Iraq, then, when he told them to "Fuck off", did EVERYTHING in their sly power to impeach him and get him out of their way. Who infested the Pentagon, to the point where even Powell called them "Fucking crazies" ?
Who rooted for war, war and MORE war ?
The Left ?
You ass.
Get informed or stop wasting my time.
Who's the PNAC ?
allieron 1 year ago
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ToddAldrich 1 year ago
@ToddAldrich Again, Todd, the problem is that I believe that Cheney KNEW, and all the evidence from the OSP shows DELIBERATE falsification, spin and TOTAL obstruction to anyone who had the truth. Read the declassified docs from the DoD. They're chilling, as is Tenet's book.
The PNAC held your balls, and the fate of the planet, in their oily hands for 4 long years. That's NOT "conspiracy" nonsense, but verifiable fact.
Research it, if you don't believe me.
Do you know who "Team-B" were ?
allieron 1 year ago