SNP's John Swinney on Scots devolution, economy and defence (21Oct11)

[tartan1985]

But in the end. Each other is all we have. We are a nation of many counties & that is our strength. In time. That strengh will be tested. I hope we will all remain as one & persevere. Long Live The United Kingdom & Her territories overseas.

[tartan1985]

Lulz. Devolution for Scotland. I left the U.K at 23 as i disagreed with politics & the principles of what our once proud nation stood for. ( After serving three years of war in Afghanistan ) However. Only uneducated delinquents crave for such things. As a humble patriot. I see no gain in devolution for Scotland. The United Kingdom was & still is in my opinion. The greatest nation on earth. It is our differences & our uniqueness that makes us what we are. Sometimes we may not like each other

[PatchesRips]

Holy Jesus, not hard to see which side Tubby's bread is buttered on... England's. I've heard for years the English treat the Scots as if they were retarded, but I'm really seeing it on clips on YouTube now. I can't believe how nakedly antagonistic this commentator and his panel are being towards the idea of independence and its supporters. Christ, if we'd treated Quebec like this, they'd have been gone for sure a long time ago. Amazing the Scots stay!

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

U forget it was a SCOTTISH prime minister that fucked the UK (brown), its a double standard to say anything about English treating scots this way or vice versa, nobody thinks differently of scots or english, its all UK, we all have a right to decide, me , you, everyone.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "we all have a right to decide"

But as to which particular decision, that's a different matter. The Scots, and ONLY the Scots, have the right to decide whether or not they want their country, Scotland, to remain in a political union with the rest of you--who do NOT have a say in that. The other countries in the UK have the right to decide what THEIR interests are in that event, and to express them in negotiating Scotland out of the Union, if it should so choose.

[kennydee2008]

On the evidence that Salmond is a globalist and was a big part of the bail out of RBS, the same bank that employed him. We would have to pay membership to the EU, and salmond would pass a bill guaranteeing citizens' rights in an independent Scotland, which would no doubt be based on European law. In 2003-04, when public spending in Scotland was £7,346 per head of population, compared with £5,940 in England. Scotland received £3bn more from the Exchequer than it paid in taxes.

[Ullere]

At 2:44 when he calls him mr Sweeny I was waiting for John to stomp him. The BBC are so condesending to the SNP that now they can't even be bothered getting their names right? Throughout this segment Horrible bias is shown against SNP and Independence.

[1scot4scotland]

Andrew sounds like such a fag at the end.

[1scot4scotland]

Andrew did come up the clyde on the banana boat.

[PatchesRips]

@1scot4scotland I thought the expression was "came up the Clyde on a bike"? Ah, well. :)

[alexfnoble]

every time you see ans interview on the bcc of someone in scotland all you sense is nothing but disdain for our nation and people...

[suffern63]

I live in Spain where alcohol is a hell of a lot cheaper than Scotland,but I don't feel the need to piss my life away.The price of booze is not the reason for this social problem,so why should everyone in Scotland have to pay more for a tipple because of the action of all the neds?

[kennydee2008]

Scotland will end the way of Greece if independence lite goes through.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 based on what information?

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila And North Sea Oil is a diminishing asset. Production peaked at 2.9m barrels a day in 1999, and by 2010 it was down to 1m barrels a day, barely a third of what it used to be. If we wanted exclusive use of the taxes generated by North Sea Oil we have left it too late.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 In the 1970's, the oil was running out, it only had something like 20 years left to flow according to Westminster.

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 The oil's all very nice, but really, folks... is that all there is to your sense of a nation? Scotland's only worth being Scotland if there's "black gold, Texas tea" coming up out of the sea... otherwise, it's just North Northumbria with Extra Plaid? I'd like to hear less about North Sea oil and more about making a go of it though good times and bad as a nation once again.

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila Here is a quote from salmond "We would tend to stay within the sterling area until such time as it is to our advantage to join the Euro" As soon as that happens we go the way of Ireland, Greece, Italy and Spain. We would have to pay millions more into the EU’s coffers, because the UK’s rebate would no longer apply, as well as £8.4b to bail out euro states like Greece in future crises.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 “We intend to lead a government of purpose and direction so that we can offer the people of this nation the opportunity to move forward to independence, democracy and equality.” another Alex Salmond quote.

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila Do you think Salmonds view of independence is for the Scottish people, your having a laugh. All lies and spin. As i said before salmond is a globalist and not a nationalist. Salmonds interest is with bankers, big business and wealth land owners.

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 "Salmonds interest is with bankers"

Then why is he proposing separating Scotland from "the City", the financial centre of Europe? You need to think the grumblings you hear on bar stools through before you repeat them as rhetorical gold.

[kennydee2008]

@PatchesRips Listen i dont drink so i dont listen to what i hear on bar stools.Edinburgh is the UK's second financial centre after London and Europe's fourth by equity assets. In world terms, Edinburgh ranks ahead of Copenhagen, Oslo, Glasgow, Dublin, Amsterdam, Dubai, Brussels, Milan and Kuala Lumpur. Just check the latest Global Financial Centres Index.

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 "Edinburgh is the UK's second financial centre after London"

So you agree out of one side of your mouth that London is the most important financial centre, while out of the other that Salmond is the creature of financiers for whom a connection with London would presumably be sacrosanct.

Well, which is it?

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 So don't join the European Union. Of course, the tariffs and disadvantages you'll be subject to as outsiders will almost certainly cost you more than contributing to the EU... which is the reason the whole thing was put together in the first place.

[kennydee2008]

@PatchesRips I know why the EU was set up and know the disadvantage of the EU. You only have to look at what the have done to the Scottish fishing fleet. Aberdeen has been decimated because of their rules and regulations. I am not for Scotland being independent. I want a fairer UK with our brothers and sister on his small island. i am against our political masters and the people who pull their strings.

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 "I know why the EU was set up"

Do you? What was that?

"I want a fairer UK"

Why not an independent Scotland in a fairer EU? After all, an independent Scotland would not need to go begging for Brussels for the "right" to withdraw from the EU as a subjugated Scotland must to London simply for the "right" to even ASK itself the question!

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

scotland is part of UK, part of our country, mine and yours so we all have a say.

what about the damage done to UK by scottish politicians?

or the fact that the only things that came out of scotland was wisky and empty trucks before the UK descovered the oil that scotland wants for itself and neither scotland or england can get out of EU unfortunately, oh and dont forget all the UK gold that brown a scotsman sold cheap, so u owe us!

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "scotland is part of UK, part of our country, mine and yours so we all have a say."

You seem to be having a real problem grasping the distinction here. Let me provide you with an analogy.

Suppose you and your friends all move into a house (the UK). You share the rent, bills, food, conveniences, the relationship with the neighbours, and so on. But when the time comes for you to move out, is that up to you, or do your roommates have the right to insist YOU MUST STAY FOREVER?

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

when I move house somebody buys my property or my share and it is agreed by all in the house, usually before moving in so thats a silly argument.

or do u think scotland should buy its way out? if so with who's money? british money?

who will form scotlands army?

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "when I move house somebody buys my property"

Would you like to answer the question I asked you instead of the one you wish I had?

Do your flatmates have the right to veto your moving out, insist you stay in the house with them forever and pay your share of whatever THEY decide by majority to buy, scrap with any neighbours THEY'VE decided to hate, and do whatever activities they've decided THEY want? Because that's what you're declaring for the people of Scotland.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

the flat mates ALL have a right to vote.

If a scotsman isn't happy then he can get voted into westminister potentially and make decisions about england and scotland for us all.

can scotland buy its way out of UK anyway?

For scots to only consider scotlands problems is a bit selfish in a democracy; all UK should consider all UK equally.

Can teesside or devon vote itself out of the UK? or will the rest of UK veto it and is that correct?

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "can scotland buy its way out of UK anyway?"

Did you have to buy your way out when you left home? How much did your freedom cost you? Were you required to stay and toe the line until you'd come up with the funds?

"For scots to only consider scotlands problems is a bit selfish in a democracy"

Not if the democracy is Scotland.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "all UK should consider all UK equally"

You're still not getting this. Regardless of whether or not what you say is true, many Scots don't want to BE in the UK in the first place.

"Can teesside or devon vote itself out of the UK?"

They're not constituent countries, but I imagine they could petition to separate from either the counties they're in or England itself. But if things were so bad that such tiny places felt they'd be better of leaving the UK, I don't see why not.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

so where is the line drawn as far as nations splitting goes?

If my garden was independEnt like scotland wants to be, would both my garden and scotland have services cut off and not be allowed to enter england?

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "so where is the line drawn as far as nations splitting goes?"

Who feels enough of a need to become a separate nation on the one hand, and who's belligerent enough to used armed force to deny other people their rights on the other. Without both of those, there's no line.

"would both my garden and scotland have services cut off"

Unless you're specifically buying them, of course. The difference is that Scotland will probably fare better than you will supplying them itself.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

scotlands oil and gas wont last too long evidently.

Also, did u know at present the scotts get more spent on them per person than people in england?

[MrKinloch999]

@tpvalley 40-100 years, yes they do, but they put more back in to the English Treasury than they recieve, they have also ran a surplus for decades, and they have a far lower deficit relative to the UK size deficit. How many times must this be explained ? lol.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "and not be allowed to enter england?"

That's up to England, I suppose, but given they didn't even resort to that after the Irish became independent, after centuries of armed struggle and a bitter war, I hardly expect Scotland and England to resort to border controls after a peaceful referendum.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "all UK should consider all UK equally"

You're still not getting this. Regardless of whether or not what you say is true, many Scots don't want to BE in the UK in the first place.

"Can teesside or devon vote itself out of the UK?"

They're not constituent countries, but I imagine they could petition to separate from either the counties they're in or England itself. But if things were so bad that such tiny places felt they'd be better of leaving the UK, I don't see why not.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "thats a silly argument."

It's only "silly" because you can see I'm right. No, you don't believe the flatmates have that right... but you know that's your position, and you're caught out in it.

"who will form scotlands army?"

Scots.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

My position is what I believe to be right, there is little to be gained in saying one thing and believing another.

So scotts will form scotlands army?

is that anyone living in scotland or anyone with a scottish accent?

do u think the UK should weaken its army by division on the basis of principle?

there is no black and white, just democracy and anyone effected should get a vote, everyone in the UK,with english and scots living throughout uk already.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "So scotts will form scotlands army?"

Who else would? The Dutch?

"is that anyone living in scotland or anyone with a scottish accent?"

I would imagine any Scottish citizen willing to join.

"do u think the UK should weaken its army by division on the basis of principle?"

If by "weaken" you mean lose manpower to another jurisdiction, of course. What do you think happened to the British army every time a colony became independent?

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

but scots in the UK army sign a contract to stay for a given time.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "but scots in the UK army sign a contract to stay for a given time. "

Yeah, and? So what? So they serve their whatever years and either re-enlist, become civilians, or join Scotland's army. This is hardly more an issue than pointing out they still have to pay off the cars they've bought and their mortgages.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "anyone effected should get a vote"

I agree they all deserve a say in the nature of the agreement that sees Scotland, or anyplace, out of the UK--but not in whether or not Scotland stays in it. That's a matter for the Scots alone to decide, just as it is for you leaving a flat you've shared with others. Your say, not theirs. Settling the bills and dividing property, yes... your choice whether or not to leave, no. That's YOUR decision ALONE.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "or do u think scotland should buy its way out?"

I think, having voted to leave the UK, Scotland must then negotiate its exit. Bargaining must be done on good faith by all parties. A fair division of assets and debts and obligations must be worked out. In my estimation, a share proportionate to Scotland's population in the UK would be a good basis for dividing mobile assets (ships, planes, tanks, etc.) and debt load. There may be other formulas.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "what about the damage done to UK by scottish politicians?"

First of all, "damage" is subjective; it's what you make of it. Secondly, what about the "damage" done to Scotland by UK politicians from other places in the UK? Anyone can whine that all into a wash, so it's pointless to bring it up. And if your point is that England should own Scotland forever because of England's grievances, then it stands to reason India should own the UK just the same, don't you think?

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

england doesnt own scotland and scotland doesnt own england, it is one entity and brown selling OUR gold cheap(subjective? sabotage more like) didnt help nore did the scottish treasurer and india invited british(scotland and england etc, so your just as guilty if anybody is) help to fight wars with its neighbours.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "england doesnt own scotland"

Then why should the English have any say in whether or not Scotland chooses to remain in the UK? The answer is: they shouldn't.

"it is one entity"

No, it isn't; if it were, this discussion wouldn't be happening. They are separate legal entities that have pooled their sovereignty and created a shared identity they have agreed to represent them at an international level. The Scots are now considering withdrawing from that arrangement.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

Everyone within the union of the Uk has a right to decide its destiny;

dont forget the number of scots in westminister deciding UK's destiny also.

if texas wanted out of USA who would decide?

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "if texas wanted out of USA who would decide?"

Same formula, it seems to me. If a constituent component of any country holds a responsible referendum to leave and wins a majority, I believe it is the obligation of all parties to negotiate an exit. If it comes to the point that one part wants that badly to leave, obviously a negotiated settlement is preferable to an armed struggle and generations of bitterness and terrorism. How many Irelands does England need to get this?

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

so do I have the right to declare my land independant, my garden etc in principle, does everyone?

and what if they did?

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley And, for the record, there's no "a" in either "independent" or "independence". No ants or dances.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "so your just as guilty if anybody is"

Are you deaf--or in this medium, dyslexic? I AM NOT BRITISH. I'm taking the part of the Scots because my sympathies lie with their right to determine their own future. If they decide to stay in the UK, fine. But that question is up to them and only them.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "india invited british"

India did not "invite" the British or the French or the Portuguese. They showed up, bought their way into protected little pockets, and then filled them up to bursting like some opportunistic infection. It's very much the way the English bought Scotland into the Union. The Indians never forgot it, and neither have the Scots.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "neither scotland or england can get out of EU"

According to whom? Where is that stated in practice or in law?

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

listen, I want out of the EU; the lisbon treaty etc all makes it almost impossible to get out although if UK splits, then there is no more UK, so if it ceases to exist we can't be bound, maybe this is real motive for any split?

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "the lisbon treaty etc all makes it almost impossible to get out"

"ALMOST impossible" is another way of saying "possible".

If Scotland leaves the UK, there will still be a UK, made up of England, Northern Ireland, and--although its constitutional bounds to England are tighter--Wales. As a unit, they would still be party to the EU.

Only a declared dissolution of the UK would change that, and that's unlikely. England would likely be the designated successor state to the UK.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

listen if scotland gets independance from EU then I will become scottish!

I hate the EU.

I believe it is actually impossible to get out of EU now, too many corrupt bastards.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "listen if scotland gets independance from EU then I will become scottish!"

Well, you might want to move to Inverses, then, and vote for independence. If Scotland becomes a separate country, it is not automatically a party to treaties concluded by the UK. It would not be in the EU, NATO, the WTO, or the UN, but would have to apply to join each... should it want to. But given the trade advantages of being in the EU, I wouldn't hold my breath that Scotland would remain out.

[tpvalley]

@PatchesRips

a trade agreement would do with EU.

[PatchesRips]

@tpvalley "a trade agreement would do with EU."

Except you're then in the position of Norway, in which you must toe the line of rules made by someone else, in which you have no say, or be cut off. If they Scots can live with that, fair enough.

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila I am all for a Republic of Scotland, where we have no Queen as head of state, where we can elect our own head of state.

Salmond is a bare faced LIAR who has betrayed the Scots to his Queen and goodness knows why ANY Scot believes a word out of his mouth. He wants us out of one Union and into another illegal Union the EUSSR.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 So Scotland should not just be independent of the union but from Europe as well? He has also said that we would join the euro if and when the Scottish people decided.

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila If we do get independence, i want to be independent of the EU and of the crown or its not independence is it. Look at what the EU did to our fishing industry for a start and the same will happen with what is left with our oil. It will be auctioned off to big business and we will be buying it back from them at an inflated price just like our gas.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 If and when, the Scottish people will decide.

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila Depends on who you class as Scottish people. As salmond said he is going to use the electoral register and some of these people dont even stay in Scotland anymore and will still be allowed to vote or what about people with dual citizenship whose birthplace is another country. If it all goes tits up they can go back to their country of origin.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 No different from any other democracy. Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[kennydee2008]

@markolalanamila No problem. :-)

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 "what about people with dual citizenship whose birthplace is another country"

If they never lived and voted in Scotland, what basis would they have to claim a vote? I'm an Irish ctiizen born in (and living in) Canada, but I don't get to vote in Irish referendums, which aren't even tied to a specific geographic location. I don't think you have to worry about this because there'd be no basis for such a person to be on the rolls in the first place.

[kennydee2008]

@PatchesRips But the SNP are trying to change the rules on who can vote in this referendum. For a start 16 and 17 year olds. The following people will be allowed to vote, citizens of other EU countries resident in Scotland, Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland, British citizens resident in Scotland. If its a matter for the Scottish people as Salmond keeps on saying, why are citizens of other countries allowed to vote.

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 "For a start 16 and 17 year olds."

So? What's the problem?

"citizens of other EU countries resident in Scotland, Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland, British citizens resident in Scotland"

That's not changing anything. Those people already have the right to vote in elections in the United Kingdom.

"why are citizens of other countries allowed to vote."

You already answered your own question repeatedly: because they are RESIDENT IN SCOTLAND. It's their home.

[markolalanamila]

@kennydee2008 Totally agree about having a freely elected head of state

[PatchesRips]

@kennydee2008 "He wants us out of one Union and into another illegal Union the EUSSR. "

Scotland's already in the EU. Maybe you didn't notice. So if that doesn't change, at least you're out of one.

[kennydee2008]

@PatchesRips We would have to apply again for membership and be expected to join the failed euro.