then do anglicans believes in the intercession of saints? the theology of the anglicanism is closer to the Luther or a mixed between lutheranism and catholicism?
Now is the time to stop bashing each other and focus on our Father and His teachings.The God and only God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob is who we should be trying to please.Debates take precious time away from our Father's word.Peace to our brothers and sisters in Christ.Amen.
I am roman catholic and I don't understand anglicanism, according to what I have read they are catholic themselves but they deny to ask to saints, also anglican temples don't have images, and the anglicans are divided in many churches like low, broad and high church why is that?
@supernatural2029 Catholic means 'universal' ..not a particular church. Saints are examples of holy lives to emulate, not deities;Jesus is our mediator and savior- we pray to Jesus who mediates for us with God the Father. Our 'churchs' have symbols, stained glass windows depicting biblical events,other art forms to visually help us to understand and worship God.High & low church designates the formality of the service, nothing more. High like Vatican mass, low like an outdoor service. Blessings
@supernatural2029 Best idea for you is to find Anglican theology on line ,it is a more conservative branch of the presently liberal theology of the episcopal church USA
I'm Episcopal to the core-unaffiliated, now, at 62. The reason? Life is demanding. After a hard week I want to lay my burdens at God's feet and have a meaningful worship experience. Worship happens when our spirits connect with God. Go ahead. Study. It's commendable; but theology is just theology-a function of intellect not spirit. Debate. Cherish your opinions. Judge. As preoccupied as you are, though, with 'issues,' I wonder if you'd recognize the Lord even if He was sitting in next pew!
Your Godlovestruth bible study videos are well prepared with novel ideas however the implication that God is not a Trinity is simply wrong. God is a Trinity period! God is three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) with one divine nature - a mystery of the Christian Faith period! Jesus Christ is God the Son incarnate who possesses two natures: a Divine nature and a human nature. It's called by theologians the hypostatic union: the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis. -BP
Sin can be forgiven; it is still sin. As a forgiven sinner, I don't imagine that I am better than the homosexuals. On the other hand, I had to repent; so do they. The Episcopal Church is doing them no favor--is giving them no service of love--by pretending that their sin is no sin and blessing them in it. The pastoral care of people does not include ignoring their sin.
Sin can be forgiven; it is still sin. As a forgiven sinner, I don't imagine that I am better than the homosexuals. On the other hand, I had to repent; so do they. The Episcopal Church is doing them no favor--is giving them no service of love--by pretending that their sin is no sin and blessing them in it. The pastoral care of people does not include ignoring their sin.
The problem often with this issue of 'Going Over to Rome' is the Roman Catholics often think, or are perceived to be by conservative Anglicans, as having a higher moral ground. The reality is if you set the 'official' church position aside you'll see that in fact many Roman priests and more of the laity are as liberal, if not more so, than many moderate Anglicans. Once some jump ship they'll see it isn't all that greener with Rome!
When I am at an RC Mass from time to time I notice their priests don't wear the Chasuble most of the time. It seems the Episcopal Church is more traditional than the RCs :) We are also the only Church that properly pronounces "Amen."
The Roman Catholic church was founded by a MAN named Constantine who was a convert to Christianity.....The Bible never mentions the Catholic church, only the church universal the Body of Christ; We could argue on and on for days on end, but the most important thing is: Do you have a personal relationship with Christ as Saviour and Lord that began at Confirmation, adult baptism or at a private moment? Sacrements don't produce eternal salvation, only the blood of Christ can do that!
All your statements makes no sense and contradict themselvs:
1. "Was founded by a Man named Constantine"
History: Constantine legalized the Catholic Church he did not found it. Its like saying, the US goverment founded Abortion in 1973, when people know well it was practiced long before then.
Scripture: "Thou art Peter the Rock upon which I will build....MY CHURCH" Matt. 16:18.
If Peter was the first Pope, he was a married man; Scripture mentions his mother-in-law. So much for priests NOT marrying. And my statements do not condradict themselves: The Roman Catholic Church did NOT exist until Constantine 'legalised' it. You know a lot about church dogma, but do you know Christ as your Lord?!? Stll have yet to get an answer to that question...Hmmmm...?
I belong to the Church Of Jesus Chirst, by Jesus Christ, for Jesus Chirst carrying on the traditions and Sacraments he set forth for the salvation of Man Kind.
Roman Catholic Priests follow the example of Christ by being celebite. The Holy Ghost, through the Pope has allowed Anglican Rite Catholic and Eastern Rite Catholic Priests to marry, but not Roman Rite Catholic Priests.
Priestly celibacy is not scripturally required. It was imposed as a matter of discipline in 1123, and then only in the Roman Rite. Other rites of the Catholic church (e.g. the Byzantine Rite) ordain married men to the clergy.
2."Chirst never mentions the Catholic Church". "The Church Universal"
History: Catholic in Greek means universal. At the beggining or Christianity, the Catholic Church was the universal Chirstian Church, until a group of MEN made up their own minds about what the bible means for themselvs. Even the Orthodox stayed away from the temptation of biblical reinterpritation in 1054.
@bawlmerbuoy1 only few, but so few it is impossible to find them. Both where Excommunicated. Although from what I have heard, the Swedish Lutheran Church is still in communion with Rome.
With all charity I must say I certainly hope not. The Episcopal Church believes that man is not only a soul to be saved, but a mind to be free. We are not bound doctrinally by antiquated notions of birth control or the role of women in religion. Who would willingly surrender so great a gift bestowed.
Joseph1599 I am an Episcopalian and you are a heretic, the Church teaches nothing about setting minds free as you call it, and the notions of the role of women are laid down in scripture and tradition which only the Universal Church can interpret with God given authority. Repent before it is too late.
Sigh. The pope is infallible because he says he is. I, needless to say, deny this perfidious doctrine. I am a heretic because you say so. I think you'd be happier in the the cozy closed mindedness of the papist faith as led currently by the incumbant of Peter's Throne, that former conscript of Hitler Youth (yes, conscripts do have a choice; they can go with the flow or resist) Christ's present Vicar on Earth (little lack of humility here?) Benedict XVI. De gustibus non ets disputandum.
Yes, Julia, among other things. You would be very welcome to attend any Episcopal service(Anglican to me, in Canada). As a baptised Christian, you cold also partake of the Eucharist. The Lord be with you!
Julia, the Eucharist is different in the Episcopal Church then in the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church the Eucharist is the auctual body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. This was started by Chirst, as well as our Priesthood, by him was granted the power to do so.
In the Episcopal Church, the Eucharist is simply a symbol not the auctual thing. The Episcopal/ Anglican Priesthood is losely based on the Catholic Priesthood started by Henry VIII not Christ.
Actually, as a new Episcopalian, I've learned the Eucharist has different interpretations:
If for you, the bread and wine physically become the body and blood of Jesus Christ, then that's good. If for you, they are simply a symbol of remembrance (as it is for me), then that's also good.
I am proud to be part of a church that doesn't tell me how they think things are, but gives me the freedom to engage and discover for myself.
Its not up to what we think is the Eucharist. Its up to Chirst, and he explains it very clearly, and St. Paul followed suit in his letters. He said that this is his body, blood, sould and divinity and must be continued in this manner.
I'm glad you are passionate about your beliefs as I am about mine, and I'm happy that there is something out there for everyone to fulfill their spiritual needs.
and Jesus never speaks in metaphor? Is he really saying cut off your right hand and pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin? Is he really saying that a camel can fit through the eye of a needle or that a plank can fit in someones eye socket? You are simply reading the tradition of your church into biblical text.
your statements are quite near to being entirely wrong. Transubstantiation of the body and blood of Christ is a widely held belief of the Episcopal Church; as is Apostolic succession as revealed in the many Roman Bishops absorbed into the Anglican Communion at the time of the reformation.
Well pardon me if that is really so but history is history. History teaches that Christ started the Catholic Church and that HenryVIII strated the Anglican/Episcopal Church. Thus apostolic succestion was severd, but not entirely. Now with Women in the Anglican/Episcopal Priesthood that is now all out the stain Glass window. At least the traditonalists Anglicans have sense enough to exodus to Rome.
You clearly do not know what you are speaking of. Henry Viii broke from Rome however all Anglican/Episcopalians know that Elizabeth started the Anglican church. ; why don't you go clean up the problems in your own church before you worry about our.
@yiminnybuck The White Horse Tavern Consecration of Anglican Bishops is at least as spurious as the existence of your Drag King Pope Joan. Look her up on google.
@joseph1599 The White Horse Tavern is the location where Anglicans met to discuss Luther's theology and some of those men were leaders in the English Reformation. The current church still retains the 39 articles handed down from Cranmers time. BTW, I am not a Catholic and don't believe any pope holds the 'keys'.
Now with No Apostolic succesion in the Anglican/Episocopal Church, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in the Anglican/Episcopal Church is null.
It is no worse than what Archbishop Marcel Lefevbre did in 1988 or what the Chinise Goverment is doing with their own Catholic Church Patriotic Assn.
Dear Daca: WRONG,WRONG,WRONG!!!!!!! The Eucharist in the Episcopal church IS to be received as The Body and Blood of Christ...Trust me, I'm a High Church Episcopalian and we are just as Catholic as you are and believe in Transubstantiation...Get your facts right the next time before you go spouting off about other denominations, O.K.?!?!?
@OHhooverpoof Obviously you haven't read your own BCP. In the back of the BCP under "Historical Documents" Article XVIII Of the Lord's Supper states, "Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions." Now who has their facts wrong?
To avoid the swaying effect and walk straight, try putting one foot in front of the other. (Part of professional training in England for choristers, choirmasters, ^priests, servers, cros-bearers...)
The result will be more dignified.
Entry processions are a good way of
1. getting the choir in place
2. unifying choir and congregation
3. expressing praise & joy.
The candles are representative of the light of Christ in the world.
Remember Christians, the will of God is no Catholic, Protestant,Orthodox, Penticostal, Adventist, JW, Etc. NO DIVISION, Only Christians, holy, helping and sharing instead of buying and selling.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:9-21)
May I suggest the vestry buy an Episcopal Flag to fly under or along side the US flag? Here in Dallas, one of the large churches along a freeway has very impresive, good size US and Episcopal flags flying. (I'm not Episcopal, but UCC)
No, UCC stands for United Church of Christ (or as some Baptists say, Unitarians Considering Christ :o) I attended a smalll Unity Church in Arkansas and enjoyed it alot.
I'm so tired of all the causes d'jour that are shredding the Anglican soul. When I was a child, it was prayer book revision. That group spun into a sub set that couldn't stomach women priests. Now, let's blame it all on the homosexuals. In my Father's house are many mansions. In the Episcopal church there are now and have always been different oppinions. Let's just get on with worshiping God, and loving our neighbour.
@joseph1599 maybe it would be a good idea to chuck those crusty old 39 articles as well, seeing as they're from the ancient past and don't mean anything anymore to anyone at all.
@joseph1599 I agree my dearest friend whole heartedly, with those last few comments. Get on with it, love God & love our neighbour. I have tried to mention that to Christians but they don't like it. Oh well..
@joseph1599 Too bad more folks don't share your sentiment! But to be fair you should keep in mind it isn't always the "antis" that are doing the tearing apart. Those with "pro" agendas do their share of alienation and division. One need not look any further than the seminaries, bishops, deployment officers, commissions on ministry, or 815 to see that.
@joseph1599 Well said, God unites and we are being divided. I was going to go to Seminary...instead I am opting to become a Monk because the future of our Church is so uncertain. In any case, keep your faith and by all means stay in the Church. What the flock is slow to understand is that when anyone leaves the Church for any reason, evil wins. Peace and Blessings.
How great it is to be Anglican! Sadly we bear judgementalism for bearing love and justice of Christ as bearing validity in sciptures. Its not new though for in Matthew 7:3 its written
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?
The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self righteously, but can judge others based on their works. This is in no way suggesting that we do not judge unbelievers and hypocrites in the church, whose fruits clearly show unbelief. How about you take a look at 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15. Your whole Episcopalian church needs to read that one.
The same of you, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Salvation Army, Catholics etc.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast the first stone.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Matt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again
These passages were aimed at people like the pharisees, who judged others to make themselves look better. The way you use God's Word to justify sin is a slap in God's face. It baffles me...
Pharisees were not bad people. They followed the laws given to them and were rightious. But they become legalistic and narrow minded with no room for love and compassion. They forget they were only human at times too and make mistakes.
The blanket disregard for them is often what has hindered Jewish relations with Christians who dont see them as bad guys.
In many ways I see no difference between Pharisees and many Christians these days.
I'll agree with you about how there are Pharisee's in the church, but there are also hypocrites that pose as Christians and twist passages to support sinful lifestyles all in the name of "interpretation". Many people also don't know that they are hypocrites; they think they are true Christians. Katherine Schori is one of them.
I dont think there is such a thing as simple liberal or conservative churches.Its only down to loving Christ and trying to be real to the Gospel and not ideas of 300 years ago. The church has to be conservative in that it looks back to Christs example, in the present to sense him and know people and progressive to reach his expectations in the future.
No, there is. When people focus too much on the Gospel, they forget the law, which condemns such things as women pastors and homosexuality. That's the problem about the Episcopal Church, thay twist the Word of God to justify letting women pastors and gay people into the church. If you truly love these people, you will lovingly correct them with Gods Word and ask that they repent.
From an insider's perspective, they don't focus on the Gospel near enough. They've too busy pushing a feel-good social agenda which disregards the Gospel message. The "national church" is unequivocally liberal, and worse yet, pluralistic. It has chosen its direction under the current administration.
what social agenda is that and what Gospel are you following that doesnt say to live ethically and do justice? No point being a conservative theologically and sitting back doing nothing about things around you.
Uh, last time I looked the Gospel was the law, and by the way, where in the Gospel does it forbade female clerics and where does Christ say anything about gays and lesbians?
What is about God's First and Great, along with his Second Commandment do you not understand?
Well then you weren't looking very good. The Old Testament focuses more on the law and the Gospel focuses more on the Gospel. In the Gospel, look up 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 where it talks about how women should not be clergy and there are numerous passages in the Bible condemning gays, both in the law and gospel.
Your ignorance astounds me. Take a Bible information class before you talk. Paul wasn't Christ, but the Holy Spirit breathed into Paul the words he wanted him to write. (2 Timothy 3:16) So basically, it's Christ talking though Paul.
And what are you trying to get with the 1st and 2nd commandments? You liberal "Christians" will be the death of the church because you are hypocrites, twisting God's Word to justify sin. If you loved Christ, then you'd quit embracing liberal, sinful policies.
I am Episcopalian. First, the Gospel consists of: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Corinthians is not the Gospel. Second, the two greatest commandments are to (l) love God and (2) to love your neighbor has yourself. We try to focus on that. The Gospel says nothing about gays. The Gospel has more to say about divorce actually.
It is also said that we should LOVINGLY correct our neighbor if he is sinning. Doesn't sound to me like Gene Robinson has been corrected yet. Try to focus on what the whole Bible has to say, not just bits and pieces.
They have not lovingly done anything they are being pig headed. How can you correct somone with the same knowledge and training as you but has a different experience and interpretation? Its nothing new for people to disagree in the church and drag their feet on issues they find difficult.
It's God's opinion. God says obey the Bible and if the Bible says that women pastors and homosexuality is a sin, which it is, then you better obey it. Every word in the Bible is God breathed (2nd Timothy 3:16)so every word is Christ breathed. So Christ is saying it is a sin through Paul. Just because Christ didn't say homosexuality was a sin while on earth, doesn't mean he somehow agrees with it. Pretty sad how Christians don't know their own Bible these days. Ever heard of Luther's Catechism?
I think you say your opinion and assume God fits that. Theres NO clear cut anything. How can the Bible say Homosexuality is a sin when the term was coined in the 1890s?
Are you saying all the church and all the Priests world wide who disagree with you cant study and read a Bible-- What a joke!
It's not an opinion. You have a poor understanding of the Bible and it really shows okay? It's not even funny. I was going to go into seminary myself to become a pastor and I took a lot of classes. The term homosexuality was coined in the 1890's, but the sinful practice wasn't. It's been happening like every other sin since man fell into sin. Unfortunately, many pastors these days don't listen to what God says and justify sin with by twisting certain passages in the Bible to justify this.
Its your opinion based on specific interpretation of scriptures. You can say what you like but there are mnay things Christians dont agree on with regards Biblical inerrancy and mnay other things even among the more evangelcial and conservative areas. I have not discussed any scripture here so you cant judge anything and I am not a lone voice. You cannot ignore that a book does not provide exact and set answers to every situation.
So you don't believe that the Bible is inerrant? What kind of Christian are you? You have to either be ELCA or an Episcopal to believe such things. You can't be a liberal Christian and it doesn't work like that. The Bible clearly states that same gender attractions are sinful. They can "love" each other all they want but it is still a sin. You are trying to make gay people sound so innocent. They are the leading cause of division in the church.
Biblical inerrancy compromises logic and science. Only fundies hold that view and not educated theologians or Christians. Ignorance, fear, judgementalism and lack of compromise theologically is whats damaging the church.
Your view just about sums up those 4 aspects very well and your position is never something I would agree with.
logic? you amuse me. You know, you aren't a Christian and I can really tell. You know that God does the miracles he does to shame the wise and the people who think they know it all; people like you. Your theological stance will be the downfall of the church. You might as well not believe anything the Bible says if you don't think it's inerrant.
I am a Christian just not ofyour ilk. Your declarations mean little to me though either way. The Bible says nothing will prevail against the church and the world will end in Gods glory so why are you so attached to church sect dogamas is amusing?
Look up theologically inerrancy and its variants. If you dont understand it you need to read before making presumptions of all the differences. On a basic level ineraancy is biblical literalism and legalism that holds to truth in 'all' aspects of science, faith and so on. Most churches dont subscribe to this.
No, in fact, most churches do. What your suggesting is that we should just have the Bible criticized while ignoring the fact that the Bible is all God breathed. By the ignorant biased responses that you're posting, I think it's safe to assume that you've never ever picked up a Bible. You just are persuaded by the shifting sands of sinful human opinion instead of what God says.
No, most churches believe in Biblical infallibility although yours doesnt.
I think your a hypocrite for ignoring Christs commandments to love God and neighbour as yourself. Your excessively rude, you cannot stand alterative views, and ignore what is saving and get picky over doctrinal issues.
If you treat fellow belivers like that I dread to think how you would treat a stranger or non beliver. To me it seems youd prefer the world to be athiest so you can have no disagreement.
Actually, no. We invite unbelievers into our church and urge them to become Christian and repent of all their sins. We do not accept hypocrites who pose as Christians and do not follow God's Word like you. But I want you to repent so that you can be a true son of God. Those are my words of love, if you ignore them, than that's you problem.
My concern is that your church holds people 'until' they disagree with you on something and then boot them out calling them hypocrites regardless if its not a central aspect of faith you disagree over.
I repent all the time and invite Christ into my life every day. Have you repented everything? I forgive you regardless in Christs love. What is it that the Bible says 'saves' according to sciptures? What disagreement do we have over the Nicene and apostolic creed?
Your stumping your boots over a few scriptures we disagree over in application. No Christian church agrees all doctrines. I thinking of Jesus at the well talking to the Samaritan woman now. Blessings
yes, I always do. I'm concerned that you are not repenting of how you promote homosexuality. Have you repented of that?
these scripture verses are critical and if you promote what the Bible condemns, that is a ticket to hell. I'm sure we diagree a lot more about the Bible and you can't be a Christian if you don't listen to what the Bible says. Those "little" verses aren't so little because simply disagreeing with them has eternal consequences. I wish you would understand that.
I am not disagreeing with those verses. I am disagreeing with their interpretation, translation and application to specific situations.
The Bible doesnt save you in itself. Being moral doesnt save you. Having faith in Christ as Lord and savour saves you. If you go with your approach to scripture you are saying anyone who disagrees on interpretation can be damned.
What's there to disagree on? those 6 verses say clearly that homosexuality is wrong. You're just listening to the sinful minds of the brass in your denomination, who are trying to please the LGBT. You want those Bible passages to say something different. God passed judgment on homosexuality at Sodom and Gomorrah. How can you interpret that any differently?
Your Joking. If its that easy all the churches would be united LOL. There are many issues involved have you read into it? Sodom and Gomorrah relates to rape and violence doesnt it? Didnt the religious man offer his daughters to be raped instead of the angels?
Well most churches are. Everyone including over half of all Anglicans interpret the text correctly. The only reason you interpret the texts differently, is that you are biased towards homosexuals. If I were biased for them, I'd give any excuse possible.
Have you got figures for your over half? Its not about being biased for or against! Its about doing justice to the texts and not reading extra generalisations into them. Your obviously biased against and so using any excuse possible.
It's rather simple. Look up each ones teachings and find it. I told you, I went to seminary; we learned these things. Yes it is being biased. I'd rather be biased against sin than be biased for it. There have always been gay people and all churches hundreds of years ago interpreted these passages the same. But now, all of a sudden, these churches are "interpreting" them differentely now that there are pressured by gay advocates? You don't think there is a link to those two?
Historically they never had any idea of 'gay' or sexual orientation whereby a person doesnt have natural attraction to a woman. It was always thought of as hetrosexual men engaging in corrupted vice. Its a different attitude and isnt true. If you look at all the scriptures relating to Gay sexual encounters they were all either rape, pederasty, abuses of power sexually over slaves and enemies, temple prostitution or pagan sexual practices the Jewish distanced from.
oh yes they did. It's a choice to be gay. Just because you have an attraction to the same sex doesn't mean you can't change. It's satan working overtime. It's just like a pedophile saying "well, I was born with an attraction to children". The Bible passages are clear and there is no such love between two individuals of the same sex. It's lust, okay? to think that they only condemn gay rape and stuff like that is pure ignorance
Do you choose to be Heterosexual? Could you be Gay if just decided? and not be attracted to women in any way at all? Your statement is not backed by Psychology, Psychiatry or Science in animals or anywhere.
Paedophiles has nothing to do with sexual orientation and isnt consentual. Thats such prejudiced ignorance bearing false witness to your neighbour.
Actually, yes. Someone I knew used to be heterosexual and now he's homosexual. Even if someone is born gay, that doesn't mean that they can't change. We are all born sinful. Does that mean that we can just live in sin and not try to change our ways? That excuse is so unbiblical.
Thats called coming out the 'closet'. Rev Bishop G Robinson himself was married with a child but always knew he was Gay and had therapy in the early years but obviously we know it doesnt really work. There is little if any medical support for your view. Could you be Gay if I demanded it? You was born a sinner too so its possible?
Show me a quote which doesnt conform to the list I provided? The Bible passages are not clear and you have failed to answer my posts on them. You just reply with what you think while not dealing with the issues Biblical or otherwise. Taking a position based on self rightousness and pride isnt always the correct answer and you need to read past your prejudices and assumptions.
You say I am ignorant but you have not dealt with any of the passages in their context to say how im incorrect?
They are very clear and I will explain each one to you. Do you want me to message you all of those passages in better detail. I bet you won't message me back because you will have been proven wrong. So, do you want me to show you what true Biblical interpretation is?
''They are very clear and I will explain each one to you. Do you want me to message you all of those passages in better detail. I bet you won't message me back because you will have been proven wrong. So, do you want me to show you what true Biblical interpretation is? ''
Whats Lust? How is two couples regardless of sexual attraction summarised as just lust? Are two Gays or two Lesbians in a relationship for over 30 years together just there for lust and to be difficult to society? Are you assuming all Gay couples have sex? Show me scriptures that directly relates to a long term Gay relationship which is condemned? Show me scriptures that say two men of similar orientation cant live together?
How do you know some dont? Its not worse than heterosexual relationships. I know of a few couples who have been together 10, 22 and 31 years. Exactly it was so important Jesus said nothing! The biggest/requent sin in the Bible is actually lending at interest to the poor!
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Jesus also said nothing about pedophilia, bestiality, and polygamy. Does that make them right? The innocence tactic isn't working here, buddy. You can make homosexuality sound as moral as you want but that doesn't change my opinion nor anyone who actually reads and interprets the Bible correctly.
What disagreement could there be over Paedophila or sex with animals? Neither can consent or age appropriate. Polygamy was popular among Jews but dropped some time before. Paul says Bishops should be married to one wife. Muslims and some Mormons obviously disagree.
Homosexuality isnt about opinion its about real lifes and sorrows often enough that need to be handled and examined with scriptures when currently they are not. A blanket non interest in scriptural analysis will hinder the church.
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That's not the point. The point is that Jesus said nothing about a lot of sins. That doesn't make them right at all and homosexuality is a sin. Prostitution requires consent, premarital sex requires consent, etc.
Those are still sins no matter if it requires consent or not; you keep going back to that. I struggle every day with sin okay? does that mean that I just give up and re-interpret the scriptures to make myself feel better about committing the sin? homosexuality is a sin of the flesh.
So you think its all the liberals saying Lord, Lord and not you guys? Did you read the rest of the passage defence by them. Sounds like some evangelicals to me. Who quotes the Bible against others not to help or guide the person or themselves but out of political, social or synod pride and arrogance?
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I think that it is any person ho calls themselves Christian and does not adhere to the Bible, liberal or not. Although, if you are liberal, than it's a pretty good hint that they don't fully follow the Bible. Christians sometimes have to show love in a disciplinary way. Love is sometimes harsh. I am explaining the scriptures to you better, in hope that you will understand them more.
Well they dont follow the Bible according to how you see it and judge. Thats different to not following it at all or not bothering. If people disagree on an interpretation influenced by comon sense, science, education, experience and logic then they can only do as their conscience allows.
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How I see things is based on what the Bible says about the issue, not my human opinion. That's how I can say that what I am saying is not just my opinion; it's what the Bible says.
Well Homosexuality is obviously something you dont have to contend with everyday so its one less thing for you to worry about. Prostitution requires consent but is based on sex at advantage and is not a mutual, shared or loving relationship of duration.
I suppose we will have to agree to differ at any rate.
The point is that just because someone might be tempted to the opposite sex, does not mean that they can just give up and say "well that's the way I was born". We are all born sinful, so that isn't a good excuse to give.
Biblical Scholarship, knowledge, research, science, education and so many things have moved on since hundreds of years ago. The Orthodox church existed for hundreds of years until 'protestants' thought they knew better as well :) The Church has never stood still and theres always been conflict.
The reason that Martin Luther broke away from the church is because the Catholic Church did not adhere to Biblical teachings; they still don't. There has never been conflict about those passages condemning homosexuality until recently, because of biased hypocrites in the church like yourself.
Most churches allow women to talk in church, have uncovered heads, men grow there hair, many churches ordain women, allow divorce, fudge abortion, dont baptise at all or disagree over age. They teach differently on the nature of Hell, literalism, grace and so much. All churches claim the truth. To the Orthodox & Catholic even your church is apostate.
We don't force women to cover their heads like you're suggesting. They just can't have a position over a man in the church. It's what the Bible says. Actually, most churches do not ordain women. We interpret the Bible correctly because we don't make up non biblical rules like Orthodox and Catholic churches, and we certainly don't make loopholes in certain passages like some of us do.
You ignored the other aspects? Why do women talk in church? Why do men not always have short hair? Loads of denominations ordain women even the most evangelical? Do they risk Hell yes or no?
It's about 70/30 for churches not ordaining women. You fail to realize that Catholics make up about a billion Christians, while Southern Baptists, Mega Churches, some conservative Lutherans, and even some Anglican churches which are against the ordaining of women make up the rest. They don't risk hell even though it's still not good. The Bible clearly condemns homosexual practices and says that they won't inherit eternal life. Have you ever opened a Bible. I sense weak faith in you.
So how do you categorise whats hell worthy and what aint? So giving communion and presiding mass as a woman obviously isnt a sin? Catholics make up the biggest number of followers but the church has less ordained members than some other smaller branches. So the ratios are more complicated.
The Bible doesnt clearly condemn 'all' homosexuals or practices at all. I think you dont even understand the difference between being homosexual and expressing it. You can sense all you like :)
Well, first of all, you need to know what the Bible says. Man's opinion is sinful and can't be trusted. God wanted men to be head of the congregation just as Christ is the head of the church. That doesn't mean that women can't have a leading role in secular activities. Women can still be ushers and greeters and can voice in an opinion at voters meetings. So how doesn't the Bible condemn 'all' homosexual practices?
Your church has modified womens role to what you feel is OK and justified it because its still less than a mans position. Technically thats still not the exact Biblical instruction. Out of interest The Salvation Army as leading evangelical protestants dont Baptise with water. Are they therefore saved at all?
Uh, no. The Bible clearly says that women are not supposed to have postion over a man in the church. Baptism should use water because that's what the Bible says. Do you always listen to what man says or what God says?
Your words of "I'm a Christian" mean little to God, since you do not obey the Bible and adhere to it in the first place. You are another hypocrite in God's church, thinking that God is all lubby dubby and ignoring the law which clearly states that someone who continues in a sin without repentance will go to hell. God is also just and condemning you know. You wouldn't know that though since you go to a left wing church.
catholic(dot)com
VictoryInJesus454 5 months ago
then do anglicans believes in the intercession of saints? the theology of the anglicanism is closer to the Luther or a mixed between lutheranism and catholicism?
supernatural2029 7 months ago
praise God!!!!!!! i go to Trinity Episcapal Church in Texas .....
AngelTx2011 7 months ago
praise God!!!!!!!
AngelTx2011 7 months ago
Now is the time to stop bashing each other and focus on our Father and His teachings.The God and only God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob is who we should be trying to please.Debates take precious time away from our Father's word.Peace to our brothers and sisters in Christ.Amen.
serpentinecreature 7 months ago
There are more people in the procession then there are in the pews.
FaithandTradition 8 months ago
I am roman catholic and I don't understand anglicanism, according to what I have read they are catholic themselves but they deny to ask to saints, also anglican temples don't have images, and the anglicans are divided in many churches like low, broad and high church why is that?
supernatural2029 8 months ago
@supernatural2029 Catholic means 'universal' ..not a particular church. Saints are examples of holy lives to emulate, not deities;Jesus is our mediator and savior- we pray to Jesus who mediates for us with God the Father. Our 'churchs' have symbols, stained glass windows depicting biblical events,other art forms to visually help us to understand and worship God.High & low church designates the formality of the service, nothing more. High like Vatican mass, low like an outdoor service. Blessings
jennyandrue80 7 months ago
@supernatural2029
jennyandrue80 7 months ago
@supernatural2029 Best idea for you is to find Anglican theology on line ,it is a more conservative branch of the presently liberal theology of the episcopal church USA
TheGetterdoneboy 6 months ago
TUUUUUUUUUUUNE!!!!!!
anonymousollie 1 year ago
is the entrance procession symbolic of Christ carrying the cross to be crusified
maldmm2 1 year ago
Very lovely church.
LivingMindfully1975 1 year ago 2
Anglicans always do one pew for me and one for you :-)
BungleZippie 1 year ago
I'm Episcopal to the core-unaffiliated, now, at 62. The reason? Life is demanding. After a hard week I want to lay my burdens at God's feet and have a meaningful worship experience. Worship happens when our spirits connect with God. Go ahead. Study. It's commendable; but theology is just theology-a function of intellect not spirit. Debate. Cherish your opinions. Judge. As preoccupied as you are, though, with 'issues,' I wonder if you'd recognize the Lord even if He was sitting in next pew!
omamutti1 1 year ago
@omamutti1 "...God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth...." (John 4:24) Amen!
Chesterbarnes1 1 year ago
@omamutti1 I believe theology is very important, in so far as it is learning more about God.
"God is seeking not only those who worship Him in "spirit", but also in "truth". They are two sides of the same coin." [JEROME]
2Tim 2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of God.”
But if our study and theology does not lead us to love and praise God more, it is pointless!
I think we have to bear both of these things in mind.
tishnumf 11 months ago
@omamutti1 I believe theology is very important, in so far as it is learning more about God.
"God is seeking not only those who worship Him in "spirit", but also in "truth". They are two sides of the same coin." [JEROME]
2Tim 2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of God.”
But if our study and theology does not lead us to love and praise God more, it is pointless!
I think we have to bear both of these things in mind.
tishnumf 11 months ago
Please watch my series on the The truth about the Trinity if you want to see tons of scriptures on what the bible teaches us to believe. God bless!
Godlovestruth 1 year ago
Your Godlovestruth bible study videos are well prepared with novel ideas however the implication that God is not a Trinity is simply wrong. God is a Trinity period! God is three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) with one divine nature - a mystery of the Christian Faith period! Jesus Christ is God the Son incarnate who possesses two natures: a Divine nature and a human nature. It's called by theologians the hypostatic union: the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis. -BP
stanwrite 1 year ago
@stanwrite Absolutely correct. Sounds like you are a Evangelical solid Bible believer Amen! So refreshing to read your post!
Chesterbarnes1 1 year ago
Sin can be forgiven; it is still sin. As a forgiven sinner, I don't imagine that I am better than the homosexuals. On the other hand, I had to repent; so do they. The Episcopal Church is doing them no favor--is giving them no service of love--by pretending that their sin is no sin and blessing them in it. The pastoral care of people does not include ignoring their sin.
Kenchely 1 year ago
@Kenchely Absolutely correct. God hates the sin, but lover the sinner!
Chesterbarnes1 1 year ago
Sin can be forgiven; it is still sin. As a forgiven sinner, I don't imagine that I am better than the homosexuals. On the other hand, I had to repent; so do they. The Episcopal Church is doing them no favor--is giving them no service of love--by pretending that their sin is no sin and blessing them in it. The pastoral care of people does not include ignoring their sin.
Kenchely 1 year ago
How far is Fredonia from New York City, or Albany New York?
Chesterbarnes1 1 year ago
The problem often with this issue of 'Going Over to Rome' is the Roman Catholics often think, or are perceived to be by conservative Anglicans, as having a higher moral ground. The reality is if you set the 'official' church position aside you'll see that in fact many Roman priests and more of the laity are as liberal, if not more so, than many moderate Anglicans. Once some jump ship they'll see it isn't all that greener with Rome!
BungleZippie 1 year ago 5
When I am at an RC Mass from time to time I notice their priests don't wear the Chasuble most of the time. It seems the Episcopal Church is more traditional than the RCs :) We are also the only Church that properly pronounces "Amen."
someonespadre 1 year ago
Does anyone know the name of the hymn being played at the intro to this clip? From 0.00 to .44 seconds - thank you.
ALFCO5 1 year ago
The hymn tune is MUNICH. It is used in the hymn I Lay My Sins on Jesus.
staytuned27 1 year ago
In a procession, walk by placing one foot in front of the other to prevent that swaying motion.
ZacharyDBrooks 2 years ago
History and the Bible, and Sacred Tradition all teach the Apostolic succesion came and remains with the Catholics.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
The Roman Catholic church was founded by a MAN named Constantine who was a convert to Christianity.....The Bible never mentions the Catholic church, only the church universal the Body of Christ; We could argue on and on for days on end, but the most important thing is: Do you have a personal relationship with Christ as Saviour and Lord that began at Confirmation, adult baptism or at a private moment? Sacrements don't produce eternal salvation, only the blood of Christ can do that!
OHhooverpoof 2 years ago
All your statements makes no sense and contradict themselvs:
1. "Was founded by a Man named Constantine"
History: Constantine legalized the Catholic Church he did not found it. Its like saying, the US goverment founded Abortion in 1973, when people know well it was practiced long before then.
Scripture: "Thou art Peter the Rock upon which I will build....MY CHURCH" Matt. 16:18.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
If Peter was the first Pope, he was a married man; Scripture mentions his mother-in-law. So much for priests NOT marrying. And my statements do not condradict themselves: The Roman Catholic Church did NOT exist until Constantine 'legalised' it. You know a lot about church dogma, but do you know Christ as your Lord?!? Stll have yet to get an answer to that question...Hmmmm...?
OHhooverpoof 2 years ago
I belong to the Church Of Jesus Chirst, by Jesus Christ, for Jesus Chirst carrying on the traditions and Sacraments he set forth for the salvation of Man Kind.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Roman Catholic Priests follow the example of Christ by being celebite. The Holy Ghost, through the Pope has allowed Anglican Rite Catholic and Eastern Rite Catholic Priests to marry, but not Roman Rite Catholic Priests.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Priestly celibacy is not scripturally required. It was imposed as a matter of discipline in 1123, and then only in the Roman Rite. Other rites of the Catholic church (e.g. the Byzantine Rite) ordain married men to the clergy.
mindspring57 2 years ago 2
@OHhooverpoof Priets are on Persona Christi not Persona Petrus.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
2."Chirst never mentions the Catholic Church". "The Church Universal"
History: Catholic in Greek means universal. At the beggining or Christianity, the Catholic Church was the universal Chirstian Church, until a group of MEN made up their own minds about what the bible means for themselvs. Even the Orthodox stayed away from the temptation of biblical reinterpritation in 1054.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
2.
Scripture: "I have other sheep, that do not belong to this fold. Thease also I must lead and they will hear my voice". John 10:16
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
3. "Sacraments don't produce eternal salvation, only the blood of Chirst can do that".
Bible: "Who ever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day". John 6:54-
Chirst confirmed through this and many other places in the bible that the Sacraments are vital for Salvation.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
@dacatholicbandorgan The apostolic succession extends to all Anglican, Episcopalian and Lutheran bishops.
bawlmerbuoy1 2 years ago 2
@bawlmerbuoy1 only few, but so few it is impossible to find them. Both where Excommunicated. Although from what I have heard, the Swedish Lutheran Church is still in communion with Rome.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Why don't you clean up your own church which is rife with pedophilia and leave my church alone.
901cleo 2 years ago
@901cleo You think your Church is free of Pedophillia? Look again.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Will this Church Recommunicate with Rome?
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
With all charity I must say I certainly hope not. The Episcopal Church believes that man is not only a soul to be saved, but a mind to be free. We are not bound doctrinally by antiquated notions of birth control or the role of women in religion. Who would willingly surrender so great a gift bestowed.
joseph1599 2 years ago
Joseph1599 I am an Episcopalian and you are a heretic, the Church teaches nothing about setting minds free as you call it, and the notions of the role of women are laid down in scripture and tradition which only the Universal Church can interpret with God given authority. Repent before it is too late.
bow1964 2 years ago
Sigh. The pope is infallible because he says he is. I, needless to say, deny this perfidious doctrine. I am a heretic because you say so. I think you'd be happier in the the cozy closed mindedness of the papist faith as led currently by the incumbant of Peter's Throne, that former conscript of Hitler Youth (yes, conscripts do have a choice; they can go with the flow or resist) Christ's present Vicar on Earth (little lack of humility here?) Benedict XVI. De gustibus non ets disputandum.
joseph1599 2 years ago
Where did your "Gift Bestowed" come from Schori? Ours come from sacred Tradition, those which Christ himself established.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Yes, Julia, among other things. You would be very welcome to attend any Episcopal service(Anglican to me, in Canada). As a baptised Christian, you cold also partake of the Eucharist. The Lord be with you!
orit65 2 years ago
i'd love to try going to an episcopal church. I go to a catholic church arent they similar but less strict? they dont pray to saints either right?
JuliaMRProductions 2 years ago
Julia, the Eucharist is different in the Episcopal Church then in the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church the Eucharist is the auctual body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. This was started by Chirst, as well as our Priesthood, by him was granted the power to do so.
In the Episcopal Church, the Eucharist is simply a symbol not the auctual thing. The Episcopal/ Anglican Priesthood is losely based on the Catholic Priesthood started by Henry VIII not Christ.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Actually, as a new Episcopalian, I've learned the Eucharist has different interpretations:
If for you, the bread and wine physically become the body and blood of Jesus Christ, then that's good. If for you, they are simply a symbol of remembrance (as it is for me), then that's also good.
I am proud to be part of a church that doesn't tell me how they think things are, but gives me the freedom to engage and discover for myself.
JoeNYCBoi 2 years ago
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dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Its not up to what we think is the Eucharist. Its up to Chirst, and he explains it very clearly, and St. Paul followed suit in his letters. He said that this is his body, blood, sould and divinity and must be continued in this manner.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago 2
Thanks for your reply.
I'm glad you are passionate about your beliefs as I am about mine, and I'm happy that there is something out there for everyone to fulfill their spiritual needs.
JoeNYCBoi 2 years ago
@dacatholicbandorgan
and Jesus never speaks in metaphor? Is he really saying cut off your right hand and pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin? Is he really saying that a camel can fit through the eye of a needle or that a plank can fit in someones eye socket? You are simply reading the tradition of your church into biblical text.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
your statements are quite near to being entirely wrong. Transubstantiation of the body and blood of Christ is a widely held belief of the Episcopal Church; as is Apostolic succession as revealed in the many Roman Bishops absorbed into the Anglican Communion at the time of the reformation.
kentingtonallen 2 years ago
Well pardon me if that is really so but history is history. History teaches that Christ started the Catholic Church and that HenryVIII strated the Anglican/Episcopal Church. Thus apostolic succestion was severd, but not entirely. Now with Women in the Anglican/Episcopal Priesthood that is now all out the stain Glass window. At least the traditonalists Anglicans have sense enough to exodus to Rome.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
You clearly do not know what you are speaking of. Henry Viii broke from Rome however all Anglican/Episcopalians know that Elizabeth started the Anglican church. ; why don't you go clean up the problems in your own church before you worry about our.
901cleo 2 years ago
@901cleo I am trying to do so (Liturgical Abuses etc). I am simply clearing a misconception with another Catholic.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
@901cleo Check out through google "white horse tavern reformation england" to see from where your present church descended.
yiminnybuck 1 year ago
@yiminnybuck The White Horse Tavern Consecration of Anglican Bishops is at least as spurious as the existence of your Drag King Pope Joan. Look her up on google.
joseph1599 1 year ago
@joseph1599 The White Horse Tavern is the location where Anglicans met to discuss Luther's theology and some of those men were leaders in the English Reformation. The current church still retains the 39 articles handed down from Cranmers time. BTW, I am not a Catholic and don't believe any pope holds the 'keys'.
yiminnybuck 1 year ago
@joseph1599 You're right jiminnybuck. I foolishly confused the White Horse with the Nag's Head myth. Sorry.
joseph1599 1 year ago
Now with No Apostolic succesion in the Anglican/Episocopal Church, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in the Anglican/Episcopal Church is null.
It is no worse than what Archbishop Marcel Lefevbre did in 1988 or what the Chinise Goverment is doing with their own Catholic Church Patriotic Assn.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
Dear Daca: WRONG,WRONG,WRONG!!!!!!! The Eucharist in the Episcopal church IS to be received as The Body and Blood of Christ...Trust me, I'm a High Church Episcopalian and we are just as Catholic as you are and believe in Transubstantiation...Get your facts right the next time before you go spouting off about other denominations, O.K.?!?!?
OHhooverpoof 2 years ago 4
The Episcopalian/Anglican Church was founded by a selfish, and spoiled brat King of a Country. Our Church was founded by the King of Kings.
dacatholicbandorgan 2 years ago
@OHhooverpoof Obviously you haven't read your own BCP. In the back of the BCP under "Historical Documents" Article XVIII Of the Lord's Supper states, "Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions." Now who has their facts wrong?
Chopinsnocturnes 1 month ago
To avoid the swaying effect and walk straight, try putting one foot in front of the other. (Part of professional training in England for choristers, choirmasters, ^priests, servers, cros-bearers...)
The result will be more dignified.
Entry processions are a good way of
1. getting the choir in place
2. unifying choir and congregation
3. expressing praise & joy.
The candles are representative of the light of Christ in the world.
1401JSC 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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Remember Christians, the will of God is no Catholic, Protestant,Orthodox, Penticostal, Adventist, JW, Etc. NO DIVISION, Only Christians, holy, helping and sharing instead of buying and selling.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:9-21)
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conceil8 2 years ago
This tune is "Wareham"! Very soulful!
Olabisi01 2 years ago
Lovely hymn. complete w/ Anglican descant..nice touch. I pray that God is glorified in all churches, since they are all His, as are we.
kensingtonpalace 2 years ago
A great video ---- I guess I can live with Rite II ---- but the other stuff, no way.
rectaltemp 2 years ago
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tupipataxo 2 years ago
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tupipataxo 2 years ago
Awesome Video
aboutbiblevideos 2 years ago
May I suggest the vestry buy an Episcopal Flag to fly under or along side the US flag? Here in Dallas, one of the large churches along a freeway has very impresive, good size US and Episcopal flags flying. (I'm not Episcopal, but UCC)
russelelane 2 years ago
unity? me too
Olebruc 2 years ago
No, UCC stands for United Church of Christ (or as some Baptists say, Unitarians Considering Christ :o) I attended a smalll Unity Church in Arkansas and enjoyed it alot.
russelelane 2 years ago
Oh, yes I know! I like UCC too!
I attend a small unity church in my town! I love it
Olebruc 2 years ago
I'm so tired of all the causes d'jour that are shredding the Anglican soul. When I was a child, it was prayer book revision. That group spun into a sub set that couldn't stomach women priests. Now, let's blame it all on the homosexuals. In my Father's house are many mansions. In the Episcopal church there are now and have always been different oppinions. Let's just get on with worshiping God, and loving our neighbour.
joseph1599 2 years ago 34
@joseph1599 maybe it would be a good idea to chuck those crusty old 39 articles as well, seeing as they're from the ancient past and don't mean anything anymore to anyone at all.
yiminnybuck 1 year ago
@joseph1599 if you feel this way, why not come to Rome?
dacatholicbandorgan 1 year ago
@joseph1599 I agree my dearest friend whole heartedly, with those last few comments. Get on with it, love God & love our neighbour. I have tried to mention that to Christians but they don't like it. Oh well..
josey165 1 year ago
@joseph1599 Too bad more folks don't share your sentiment! But to be fair you should keep in mind it isn't always the "antis" that are doing the tearing apart. Those with "pro" agendas do their share of alienation and division. One need not look any further than the seminaries, bishops, deployment officers, commissions on ministry, or 815 to see that.
obxemt 1 year ago
@joseph1599 What about the Bible God's Holy Word as a rule for faith and practice?
Chesterbarnes1 1 year ago
@joseph1599 Well said, God unites and we are being divided. I was going to go to Seminary...instead I am opting to become a Monk because the future of our Church is so uncertain. In any case, keep your faith and by all means stay in the Church. What the flock is slow to understand is that when anyone leaves the Church for any reason, evil wins. Peace and Blessings.
bracetoby 6 months ago in playlist Episcopal Hymns
@bracetoby Why don't you go into something useful like Doctor, Nurse or Engineer.
someonespadre 1 month ago
Nice!
karpov89 2 years ago
Why all the fighting?
tippymugs 3 years ago
How great it is to be Anglican! Sadly we bear judgementalism for bearing love and justice of Christ as bearing validity in sciptures. Its not new though for in Matthew 7:3 its written
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?
How true is that for the Christian world also.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Wow, you took that verse out of context.
The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self righteously, but can judge others based on their works. This is in no way suggesting that we do not judge unbelievers and hypocrites in the church, whose fruits clearly show unbelief. How about you take a look at 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15. Your whole Episcopalian church needs to read that one.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
The same of you, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Salvation Army, Catholics etc.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast the first stone.
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Matt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again
BungleZippie 3 years ago
These passages were aimed at people like the pharisees, who judged others to make themselves look better. The way you use God's Word to justify sin is a slap in God's face. It baffles me...
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Pharisees were not bad people. They followed the laws given to them and were rightious. But they become legalistic and narrow minded with no room for love and compassion. They forget they were only human at times too and make mistakes.
The blanket disregard for them is often what has hindered Jewish relations with Christians who dont see them as bad guys.
In many ways I see no difference between Pharisees and many Christians these days.
Such people exist in all religions.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
I'll agree with you about how there are Pharisee's in the church, but there are also hypocrites that pose as Christians and twist passages to support sinful lifestyles all in the name of "interpretation". Many people also don't know that they are hypocrites; they think they are true Christians. Katherine Schori is one of them.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I'd love the Episcopal Church if it wasn't so liberal, but a nice hymn anyways.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I dont think there is such a thing as simple liberal or conservative churches.Its only down to loving Christ and trying to be real to the Gospel and not ideas of 300 years ago. The church has to be conservative in that it looks back to Christs example, in the present to sense him and know people and progressive to reach his expectations in the future.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
No, there is. When people focus too much on the Gospel, they forget the law, which condemns such things as women pastors and homosexuality. That's the problem about the Episcopal Church, thay twist the Word of God to justify letting women pastors and gay people into the church. If you truly love these people, you will lovingly correct them with Gods Word and ask that they repent.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
From an insider's perspective, they don't focus on the Gospel near enough. They've too busy pushing a feel-good social agenda which disregards the Gospel message. The "national church" is unequivocally liberal, and worse yet, pluralistic. It has chosen its direction under the current administration.
obxemt 3 years ago
what social agenda is that and what Gospel are you following that doesnt say to live ethically and do justice? No point being a conservative theologically and sitting back doing nothing about things around you.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Uh, last time I looked the Gospel was the law, and by the way, where in the Gospel does it forbade female clerics and where does Christ say anything about gays and lesbians?
What is about God's First and Great, along with his Second Commandment do you not understand?
choirboyfromhell1 3 years ago
Well then you weren't looking very good. The Old Testament focuses more on the law and the Gospel focuses more on the Gospel. In the Gospel, look up 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 where it talks about how women should not be clergy and there are numerous passages in the Bible condemning gays, both in the law and gospel.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
And the last time I looked, Paul wasn't Christ.
And you didn't respond to the First and Second Commandments, which means you must better than Christ. It must be hard to be you.
You Fundies are going to be the long term death of Christianity, mark my word.
choirboyfromhell1 3 years ago
Your ignorance astounds me. Take a Bible information class before you talk. Paul wasn't Christ, but the Holy Spirit breathed into Paul the words he wanted him to write. (2 Timothy 3:16) So basically, it's Christ talking though Paul.
And what are you trying to get with the 1st and 2nd commandments? You liberal "Christians" will be the death of the church because you are hypocrites, twisting God's Word to justify sin. If you loved Christ, then you'd quit embracing liberal, sinful policies.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I am Episcopalian. First, the Gospel consists of: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Corinthians is not the Gospel. Second, the two greatest commandments are to (l) love God and (2) to love your neighbor has yourself. We try to focus on that. The Gospel says nothing about gays. The Gospel has more to say about divorce actually.
901cleo 3 years ago
It is also said that we should LOVINGLY correct our neighbor if he is sinning. Doesn't sound to me like Gene Robinson has been corrected yet. Try to focus on what the whole Bible has to say, not just bits and pieces.
HailZeon57 3 years ago 2
They have not lovingly done anything they are being pig headed. How can you correct somone with the same knowledge and training as you but has a different experience and interpretation? Its nothing new for people to disagree in the church and drag their feet on issues they find difficult.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Well there we go seeing things with black and white glasses.
Thats obviously just your opinion and there is no easy answers despite what some church people say politically or theologically.
No women pastors? So that discredits virtually all evangelical churches then? Gosh all those pure Bible belivers! :-)
No Gays in the church? How could you tell and isnt that elitism, exclusive and anti Gospel? Where did Christ say to do that?
You can close your mind off but to close your heart as well?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
It's God's opinion. God says obey the Bible and if the Bible says that women pastors and homosexuality is a sin, which it is, then you better obey it. Every word in the Bible is God breathed (2nd Timothy 3:16)so every word is Christ breathed. So Christ is saying it is a sin through Paul. Just because Christ didn't say homosexuality was a sin while on earth, doesn't mean he somehow agrees with it. Pretty sad how Christians don't know their own Bible these days. Ever heard of Luther's Catechism?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I think you say your opinion and assume God fits that. Theres NO clear cut anything. How can the Bible say Homosexuality is a sin when the term was coined in the 1890s?
Are you saying all the church and all the Priests world wide who disagree with you cant study and read a Bible-- What a joke!
BungleZippie 3 years ago
It's not an opinion. You have a poor understanding of the Bible and it really shows okay? It's not even funny. I was going to go into seminary myself to become a pastor and I took a lot of classes. The term homosexuality was coined in the 1890's, but the sinful practice wasn't. It's been happening like every other sin since man fell into sin. Unfortunately, many pastors these days don't listen to what God says and justify sin with by twisting certain passages in the Bible to justify this.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Its your opinion based on specific interpretation of scriptures. You can say what you like but there are mnay things Christians dont agree on with regards Biblical inerrancy and mnay other things even among the more evangelcial and conservative areas. I have not discussed any scripture here so you cant judge anything and I am not a lone voice. You cannot ignore that a book does not provide exact and set answers to every situation.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
So you don't believe that the Bible is inerrant? What kind of Christian are you? You have to either be ELCA or an Episcopal to believe such things. You can't be a liberal Christian and it doesn't work like that. The Bible clearly states that same gender attractions are sinful. They can "love" each other all they want but it is still a sin. You are trying to make gay people sound so innocent. They are the leading cause of division in the church.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Biblical inerrancy compromises logic and science. Only fundies hold that view and not educated theologians or Christians. Ignorance, fear, judgementalism and lack of compromise theologically is whats damaging the church.
Your view just about sums up those 4 aspects very well and your position is never something I would agree with.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
logic? you amuse me. You know, you aren't a Christian and I can really tell. You know that God does the miracles he does to shame the wise and the people who think they know it all; people like you. Your theological stance will be the downfall of the church. You might as well not believe anything the Bible says if you don't think it's inerrant.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I am a Christian just not ofyour ilk. Your declarations mean little to me though either way. The Bible says nothing will prevail against the church and the world will end in Gods glory so why are you so attached to church sect dogamas is amusing?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Look up theologically inerrancy and its variants. If you dont understand it you need to read before making presumptions of all the differences. On a basic level ineraancy is biblical literalism and legalism that holds to truth in 'all' aspects of science, faith and so on. Most churches dont subscribe to this.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
No, in fact, most churches do. What your suggesting is that we should just have the Bible criticized while ignoring the fact that the Bible is all God breathed. By the ignorant biased responses that you're posting, I think it's safe to assume that you've never ever picked up a Bible. You just are persuaded by the shifting sands of sinful human opinion instead of what God says.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
No, most churches believe in Biblical infallibility although yours doesnt.
I think your a hypocrite for ignoring Christs commandments to love God and neighbour as yourself. Your excessively rude, you cannot stand alterative views, and ignore what is saving and get picky over doctrinal issues.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
If you treat fellow belivers like that I dread to think how you would treat a stranger or non beliver. To me it seems youd prefer the world to be athiest so you can have no disagreement.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Actually, no. We invite unbelievers into our church and urge them to become Christian and repent of all their sins. We do not accept hypocrites who pose as Christians and do not follow God's Word like you. But I want you to repent so that you can be a true son of God. Those are my words of love, if you ignore them, than that's you problem.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
My concern is that your church holds people 'until' they disagree with you on something and then boot them out calling them hypocrites regardless if its not a central aspect of faith you disagree over.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Look for yourself. The link to my denomination is in my profile. If you want true Christianity, that's the church to go to
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I repent all the time and invite Christ into my life every day. Have you repented everything? I forgive you regardless in Christs love. What is it that the Bible says 'saves' according to sciptures? What disagreement do we have over the Nicene and apostolic creed?
Your stumping your boots over a few scriptures we disagree over in application. No Christian church agrees all doctrines. I thinking of Jesus at the well talking to the Samaritan woman now. Blessings
BungleZippie 3 years ago
yes, I always do. I'm concerned that you are not repenting of how you promote homosexuality. Have you repented of that?
these scripture verses are critical and if you promote what the Bible condemns, that is a ticket to hell. I'm sure we diagree a lot more about the Bible and you can't be a Christian if you don't listen to what the Bible says. Those "little" verses aren't so little because simply disagreeing with them has eternal consequences. I wish you would understand that.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I am not disagreeing with those verses. I am disagreeing with their interpretation, translation and application to specific situations.
The Bible doesnt save you in itself. Being moral doesnt save you. Having faith in Christ as Lord and savour saves you. If you go with your approach to scripture you are saying anyone who disagrees on interpretation can be damned.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
What's there to disagree on? those 6 verses say clearly that homosexuality is wrong. You're just listening to the sinful minds of the brass in your denomination, who are trying to please the LGBT. You want those Bible passages to say something different. God passed judgment on homosexuality at Sodom and Gomorrah. How can you interpret that any differently?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Your Joking. If its that easy all the churches would be united LOL. There are many issues involved have you read into it? Sodom and Gomorrah relates to rape and violence doesnt it? Didnt the religious man offer his daughters to be raped instead of the angels?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Well most churches are. Everyone including over half of all Anglicans interpret the text correctly. The only reason you interpret the texts differently, is that you are biased towards homosexuals. If I were biased for them, I'd give any excuse possible.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Have you got figures for your over half? Its not about being biased for or against! Its about doing justice to the texts and not reading extra generalisations into them. Your obviously biased against and so using any excuse possible.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
It's rather simple. Look up each ones teachings and find it. I told you, I went to seminary; we learned these things. Yes it is being biased. I'd rather be biased against sin than be biased for it. There have always been gay people and all churches hundreds of years ago interpreted these passages the same. But now, all of a sudden, these churches are "interpreting" them differentely now that there are pressured by gay advocates? You don't think there is a link to those two?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Historically they never had any idea of 'gay' or sexual orientation whereby a person doesnt have natural attraction to a woman. It was always thought of as hetrosexual men engaging in corrupted vice. Its a different attitude and isnt true. If you look at all the scriptures relating to Gay sexual encounters they were all either rape, pederasty, abuses of power sexually over slaves and enemies, temple prostitution or pagan sexual practices the Jewish distanced from.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
oh yes they did. It's a choice to be gay. Just because you have an attraction to the same sex doesn't mean you can't change. It's satan working overtime. It's just like a pedophile saying "well, I was born with an attraction to children". The Bible passages are clear and there is no such love between two individuals of the same sex. It's lust, okay? to think that they only condemn gay rape and stuff like that is pure ignorance
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Do you choose to be Heterosexual? Could you be Gay if just decided? and not be attracted to women in any way at all? Your statement is not backed by Psychology, Psychiatry or Science in animals or anywhere.
Paedophiles has nothing to do with sexual orientation and isnt consentual. Thats such prejudiced ignorance bearing false witness to your neighbour.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Actually, yes. Someone I knew used to be heterosexual and now he's homosexual. Even if someone is born gay, that doesn't mean that they can't change. We are all born sinful. Does that mean that we can just live in sin and not try to change our ways? That excuse is so unbiblical.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Thats called coming out the 'closet'. Rev Bishop G Robinson himself was married with a child but always knew he was Gay and had therapy in the early years but obviously we know it doesnt really work. There is little if any medical support for your view. Could you be Gay if I demanded it? You was born a sinner too so its possible?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Show me a quote which doesnt conform to the list I provided? The Bible passages are not clear and you have failed to answer my posts on them. You just reply with what you think while not dealing with the issues Biblical or otherwise. Taking a position based on self rightousness and pride isnt always the correct answer and you need to read past your prejudices and assumptions.
You say I am ignorant but you have not dealt with any of the passages in their context to say how im incorrect?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
They are very clear and I will explain each one to you. Do you want me to message you all of those passages in better detail. I bet you won't message me back because you will have been proven wrong. So, do you want me to show you what true Biblical interpretation is?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
''They are very clear and I will explain each one to you. Do you want me to message you all of those passages in better detail. I bet you won't message me back because you will have been proven wrong. So, do you want me to show you what true Biblical interpretation is? ''
How Patronising LOL
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Whats Lust? How is two couples regardless of sexual attraction summarised as just lust? Are two Gays or two Lesbians in a relationship for over 30 years together just there for lust and to be difficult to society? Are you assuming all Gay couples have sex? Show me scriptures that directly relates to a long term Gay relationship which is condemned? Show me scriptures that say two men of similar orientation cant live together?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Most homosexual relationships don't work out for 30 years okay?
How about you show me a Bible verse which condones homosexuality if it's so moral.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
How do you know some dont? Its not worse than heterosexual relationships. I know of a few couples who have been together 10, 22 and 31 years. Exactly it was so important Jesus said nothing! The biggest/requent sin in the Bible is actually lending at interest to the poor!
BungleZippie 3 years ago
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Jesus also said nothing about pedophilia, bestiality, and polygamy. Does that make them right? The innocence tactic isn't working here, buddy. You can make homosexuality sound as moral as you want but that doesn't change my opinion nor anyone who actually reads and interprets the Bible correctly.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
What disagreement could there be over Paedophila or sex with animals? Neither can consent or age appropriate. Polygamy was popular among Jews but dropped some time before. Paul says Bishops should be married to one wife. Muslims and some Mormons obviously disagree.
Homosexuality isnt about opinion its about real lifes and sorrows often enough that need to be handled and examined with scriptures when currently they are not. A blanket non interest in scriptural analysis will hinder the church.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
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That's not the point. The point is that Jesus said nothing about a lot of sins. That doesn't make them right at all and homosexuality is a sin. Prostitution requires consent, premarital sex requires consent, etc.
Those are still sins no matter if it requires consent or not; you keep going back to that. I struggle every day with sin okay? does that mean that I just give up and re-interpret the scriptures to make myself feel better about committing the sin? homosexuality is a sin of the flesh.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:9-13
BungleZippie 3 years ago 2
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Funny how you keep on refrencing passages like this, while Jesus also clearly says "not everyone who says 'Lord','Lord', will be saved".
HailZeon57 3 years ago
So you think its all the liberals saying Lord, Lord and not you guys? Did you read the rest of the passage defence by them. Sounds like some evangelicals to me. Who quotes the Bible against others not to help or guide the person or themselves but out of political, social or synod pride and arrogance?
BungleZippie 3 years ago 11
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I think that it is any person ho calls themselves Christian and does not adhere to the Bible, liberal or not. Although, if you are liberal, than it's a pretty good hint that they don't fully follow the Bible. Christians sometimes have to show love in a disciplinary way. Love is sometimes harsh. I am explaining the scriptures to you better, in hope that you will understand them more.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Well they dont follow the Bible according to how you see it and judge. Thats different to not following it at all or not bothering. If people disagree on an interpretation influenced by comon sense, science, education, experience and logic then they can only do as their conscience allows.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
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How I see things is based on what the Bible says about the issue, not my human opinion. That's how I can say that what I am saying is not just my opinion; it's what the Bible says.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Well Homosexuality is obviously something you dont have to contend with everyday so its one less thing for you to worry about. Prostitution requires consent but is based on sex at advantage and is not a mutual, shared or loving relationship of duration.
I suppose we will have to agree to differ at any rate.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
The point is that just because someone might be tempted to the opposite sex, does not mean that they can just give up and say "well that's the way I was born". We are all born sinful, so that isn't a good excuse to give.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
have you ever eaten shellfish? pork?
magister92 2 years ago
Biblical Scholarship, knowledge, research, science, education and so many things have moved on since hundreds of years ago. The Orthodox church existed for hundreds of years until 'protestants' thought they knew better as well :) The Church has never stood still and theres always been conflict.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
The reason that Martin Luther broke away from the church is because the Catholic Church did not adhere to Biblical teachings; they still don't. There has never been conflict about those passages condemning homosexuality until recently, because of biased hypocrites in the church like yourself.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Well of course you wouldsay that cos you a Lutheren :) I noticed you failed to address the points :)
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Most churches allow women to talk in church, have uncovered heads, men grow there hair, many churches ordain women, allow divorce, fudge abortion, dont baptise at all or disagree over age. They teach differently on the nature of Hell, literalism, grace and so much. All churches claim the truth. To the Orthodox & Catholic even your church is apostate.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
We don't force women to cover their heads like you're suggesting. They just can't have a position over a man in the church. It's what the Bible says. Actually, most churches do not ordain women. We interpret the Bible correctly because we don't make up non biblical rules like Orthodox and Catholic churches, and we certainly don't make loopholes in certain passages like some of us do.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
You ignored the other aspects? Why do women talk in church? Why do men not always have short hair? Loads of denominations ordain women even the most evangelical? Do they risk Hell yes or no?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
It's about 70/30 for churches not ordaining women. You fail to realize that Catholics make up about a billion Christians, while Southern Baptists, Mega Churches, some conservative Lutherans, and even some Anglican churches which are against the ordaining of women make up the rest. They don't risk hell even though it's still not good. The Bible clearly condemns homosexual practices and says that they won't inherit eternal life. Have you ever opened a Bible. I sense weak faith in you.
HailZeon57 3 years ago
So how do you categorise whats hell worthy and what aint? So giving communion and presiding mass as a woman obviously isnt a sin? Catholics make up the biggest number of followers but the church has less ordained members than some other smaller branches. So the ratios are more complicated.
The Bible doesnt clearly condemn 'all' homosexuals or practices at all. I think you dont even understand the difference between being homosexual and expressing it. You can sense all you like :)
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Well, first of all, you need to know what the Bible says. Man's opinion is sinful and can't be trusted. God wanted men to be head of the congregation just as Christ is the head of the church. That doesn't mean that women can't have a leading role in secular activities. Women can still be ushers and greeters and can voice in an opinion at voters meetings. So how doesn't the Bible condemn 'all' homosexual practices?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Your church has modified womens role to what you feel is OK and justified it because its still less than a mans position. Technically thats still not the exact Biblical instruction. Out of interest The Salvation Army as leading evangelical protestants dont Baptise with water. Are they therefore saved at all?
BungleZippie 3 years ago
Uh, no. The Bible clearly says that women are not supposed to have postion over a man in the church. Baptism should use water because that's what the Bible says. Do you always listen to what man says or what God says?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
I wasnt agreeing with Baptism without water I was asking you a practical question that theres more doctrine abuses central to faith mnay ignore.
BungleZippie 3 years ago
I also condemn that too and I know God would. Do you condemn it, or do you condone it?
HailZeon57 3 years ago
Your words of "I'm a Christian" mean little to God, since you do not obey the Bible and adhere to it in the first place. You are another hypocrite in God's church, thinking that God is all lubby dubby and ignoring the law which clearly states that someone who continues in a sin without repentance will go to hell. God is also just and condemning you know. You wouldn't know that though since you go to a left wing church.
HailZeon57 3 years ago