Jesus died to save only the elect from the wrath of God. Ltd atonement is true within time. Yet, Jesus is the Savior of all men, ransomed all men, and God desires that none perish & all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. God being fully Sovereign & ransom paid inherently guaranteeing salvation in God's Sovereign conclusion of what He begins... obviously, hell is not eternal. Rather, Jesus destroyed Satan on the cross. Satan, flesh, this world, sin, death, hell destroyed last day
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
You can "stand for the faith" that you claim your flesh chose - we will "stand for the Faith" that God granted to us by Unmerited Grace. It is obvious which Theology is God's and which is man's.
The Biblical fact is that God has Unconditionally elected and predestinated to save a people. The Scriptures are crystal clear on this. Salvation is a gift to them:
Eph1:4-6
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
But instead of accepting the truth of Election and Predestination - you choose to take words that apply to God's Elect and apply them universally. It's like taking words "us" and "we" from Ephesians 1:4-6 and apply them to Universal Humanity. This is exactly what you do with words such as "Anyone", Everyone", "World" and the like. Very unsound and to be rejected!
@ChristianTULIP No, you choose to believe Augustine's twisted theology that influenced Calvin.
Do you know what context is? If so, then it is perfectly clear that God so loved the world. The only way you can reject this reality is because you have refused to accept the truth so God is letting you believe a lie. You have chosen man's theology over God's truth.
It is your heretical theological stances that need to be publicly refuted and rejected.
Choose to believe? The scriptures reject that idea because by nature fallen sinners are spiritually dead and unable to act outside of their nature(1Cor2:14). If man desires to believe - it is only because God first regenerated him unconditional on anything in man (John1:13). All the Glory and credit goes to God - not mans flesh as your Theology teaches. Please stop your rhetoric and lets stick with the scriptures.
@ChristianTULIP Yes, why don't you stick with the scriptures. Yes, you are responsible for your choice to either accept the Gospel or reject it. If you are using Calvinism as a way out of you being responsible for your decisions then you are going to be sorely disappointed. You are not regenerated first. You believe and have faith first. Faith is not a work. Faith comes by hearing the word of truth which is the Gospel.
There is no "responsible choice" taught anywhere in the scriptures. That is the ancient heresy of Pelagianism. As a matter of fact the scriptures teach that it is God who works in people to will in order to do God's good pleasure:
The scriptures teach that man MUST be regenerated first in order to believe. You have a very low view - yet scripture has a very high view of it. Man is DEAD in trespasses and Sins. His mind is at ENMITY against God. How can one who's mind is naturally against God choose him?? RIdiculous Humanistic error!!
@ChristianTULIP You have a very false view. In order to be regenerated you have to have the Holy Spirit reside inside of you. That is reserved only for those that believe and have faith in Christ.
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Faith does come from hearing and hearing from the word of God ----but how do you suppose man is able to HEAR it?? This is regeneration! He who has ears to hear, will hear. And those who have ears are granted those ears (and sight) by the Holy Spirit via Regeneration.
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
John 1:6,7 NIV
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Romans 4:4,5 NIV
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Only a wicked man would reject and try to twist this truth. Repent and be saved the biblical way by having faith in the blood of Christ for your redemption.
@StandForTheFaith John12:32 - "All men" = these words refer to All of God's Elect people who will be irresistable drawn to him by the Holy Spirit from the beginning to the end of time:
31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
And how do you suppose any spiritually dead, God hating sinner will believe in Jesus as per Acts 16:30? Answer) Only by the direct and irresistable power of the Holy Spirit who will regenerate and grant faith by Grace Alone:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
An outward Jew is not necessarily an Elect Jew - you need to go back and reread the scriptures I have provided you. Those outward Jews who resist the Spirit are Not elect and in the verse Jesus clearly says "YOU ALWAYS RESIST AS YOUR FATHER DID". The key word is ALWAYS which teaches us that the unelect will ALWAYS resist the OUTWARD CALL of the gospel. Please read before you bring bad accusations.
@ChristianTULIP The Bible clearly states that without faith it is impossible to please God. The faith needs to come from you. If it came from God then God would be pleasing himself.
You need to repent and then have faith in Christ to be saved. You do not receive the Holy Spirit prior to putting your faith in Christ.
Mark 2:5 NIV
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Correction - God gives Faith to some sinners. Faith is not created by the flesh, it is given by God. (EPh2:8). Likewise Repentance also does not originate in the flesh, it is also given by God to some sinners (Acts11:18). God grants faith and repentance to those he saves by first regenerating them through a monergistic act of the Holy Spirit (John1:13).
Mark 2:5 = does not teach that forgivness came as a result of faith first produced by the paralytics flesh. Faith was given to this sinner as given to all Elect sinners, In John9 - we learn that God already predestined this for his own reasons:
John 9:3
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the WORKS OF GOD should be made manifest in him
@ChristianTULIP You reject truth. There is nothing anyone can do. Christ could appear right before your very eyes and you still will reject the truth.
@ChristianTULIP Luke 5:20 NIV 20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." Luke 7:50 NIV 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." John 8:30 NIV 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him. John 12:11 NIV 11for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him. Acts 20:21 NIV 21I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
@ChristianTULIP Grace is unmerited favor meaning that you do not deserve salvation by your own merit. That has nothing to do with the fact that you need to receive the free gift of salvation by having faith in Christ.
You still need to have faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
John12:11 - "their faith" does not address why and how that faith was produced. The answer is found in Eph2:8 - BY GRACE
Acts 20:21 - The verse does not in any way teach that repentance and faith originates in mans flesh. The scriptures teach that Faith and repentance are granted by God.
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[b]
@ChristianTULIP You know what? You have a problem. It is called spiritual blindness. I could quote the entire Bible and you still will reject the truth.
You are unteachable. You have the freedom to believe what you want. I will stand for the faith and contend for truth. Instead of me continuing this just read over all of the numerous arguments and scriptures. Better yet. Read the Bible for yourself without the Calvinistic distortions.
Spiritual blindness? According to your theology I should be able to fix that with my freewill? You see how your theology fails? You contradict your own bad theology. If you want to stand for truth - then stand for sovereign Grace, not for the Flesh! Every part of Salvation is the Lords and he grants it to whom he wishes according to his sovereignty. Man's flesh is not the deciding factor in any part of it.
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through faith in his blood.
26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting?.... No, but on that of faith.
Romans 3:22-23 = The verse is addressing the fact that God is the God of Jews and gentiles as context shows in 3:29. Within this context, those who believe (granted faith) are God's Elect out of Jews and Gentiles.
@ChristianTULIP Did you read my last message? You only want to hear the sound of your own voice. I have made and proven my position with the scriptures. What you do with it is your problem.
Sound of my own voice? That's funny - all I have done is present you with the scriptural evidence. That means that I like to hear the voice of the scriptures - not false, man centered Theology after the flesh. Bad theology always bases its beliefs on what feels right. But True Theology bases its faith on the scriptures, regardless of how we feel about it.
All you have done is proven your ignorance of the scriptures. Just because you can isolate a few verses, doesn't mean you are interpreting them correctly. You need to read and understand them in the context of the whole counsel of God. Words such as "whosoever", "All", "World" do not always mean Universal humanity. They are often used to express the fullness or completness of a particular people.
for example, who are the "whole world" in Luke 2:1 to be taxed? Of course this applies to those qualified to the Roman Empire at the time. So the words "whole world" do not and cannot apply to universal humanity at the time:
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
You are making the same mistake by assuming Jesus died for all universal humanity (instead of the Elect alone) just because you find some verses that use the word "World" , "All" and "whosoever". When it comes to salvation - these words are already qualified and defined to the invisible Church (Elect of God).
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 5:1,2 NIV
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
Romans 4:4-5, 5:1-2 = And why will a man trust God? where does his faith originate from? The verses do not teach the flesh as you would like to believe. They originate from sovereign Grace. Faith , repentance, works are all granted to God's Elect by Grace alone according to the WILL OF GOD alone:
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Ignoring what scriptures - I have answered every scripture youve given me. However - you are clearly ignoring the scripture I give you. Lets try this again - God will draw ALL of God's Elect only. We know this because Jesus himself said "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM". And we know that the only people that will be drawn are all that the Father gave Jesus to save "ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME". They will come without question.
31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
John12:31-33 - "Draw all men" = this is not referring to all universal humanity. This is referring to God's elect because no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them and all that the father gives to Jesus will definetly come to him:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[b]
Acts 7:51 - "You always resist the Holy Spirit" = Notice the word ALWAYS. The unelect will ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit because they do not receive the inward call - only the outward preaching of the gospel.
@ChristianTULIP That is a lie. You have promoted a false Gospel. Christ came to die for sinners, period. All of them not just some.
Being saved is not passive you have to repent and have faith and believe in Christ for your redemption.
If you think that you were somehow passively saved then you are not saved at all.
I would suggest you forget the doctrines of men and start all over again with just the Bible and let it dictate your doctrine and not the other way around.
Christ came into the world to die for all sinners that the Father gave him to save out of the world. These are his Elect, chosen, sheep, remnant, people, etc. (Eph1:4-6, Rom8:28-30) God grants these sinners repentance, faith and good works in an act of monergistic regeneration (John1:13)
Even the very act of faith is predetermined for the Elect by God:
Acts13:48 - And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed
You need to stop isolating verses. Acts 11:18 - Does not teach that all universal gentiles are saved. Acts13:48 clarifies which Gentiles will be saved:
Salvation is pre-determined and secured for God's Elect ALONE in Christ. At the appointed time - the Spirit brings them to Christ through unconditional regeneration and granting of faith and repentance:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning CHOSEN you to SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
@ChristianTULIP What do you think the Gospel is for? Did Christ die for all sins or did he not? Did Christ conquer death or did he not? Why do you fight against the Gospel of Christ and prevent the lost from coming to Christ and believing and having faith and thus be saved? Do you not care that there are lost people out there that need the saving grace of God? Do you only care about yourself because you consider yourself to be one of the elect? Is that not the ultimate in pride?
1_ The Gospel is to be preached to all humanity - however only God's Elect will accept it while the unelect will always willfully reject it. The Gospel serves to save the Elect and condemn the unelect. Christ died for God's Elect. Christ conquered death for God's Elect. Christ will return to gather God's elect. The gift of salvation is for God's Elect people whom he unconditionally chose to save before the foundation of the world (Eph1:4-6).
@ChristianTULIP So you are saying that the Gospel is powerless? That is a direct insult to God himself and the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus, on the cross.
The Gospel serves to condemn the unelect? That is blasphemy. You do not get these twisted teachings from the Bible.
God always has conditions. The condition for salvation is faith.
The Gospel is not powerless - because it will always accomplish its purpose. God's Elect are guaranteed to accept it. Paul answers this kind of nonsense directly when confronted with the question as to why not all people will believe the gospel:
Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[a] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
2 Timothy 3:8,9 NIV
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
What is a direct insult to God which you ignorantly commit- is saying that Jesus spilled his blood with no guarantee that anyone would ever become saved, because it all depends on the ridiculous notion of a spiritually dead sinner being required to excercise freewill to choose it. Illogical, nonsensical and unscriptural! This is blasphemey!
Excuse me, conditions? You can create your own false gospel of conditions - but we'll stick to the scriptures gospel of Grace which teaches us that salvation is UNCONDITIONAL and dependant on GOD"S CHOICE:
@ChristianTULIP You are saved by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
You have a problem with the God of the Bible. You cannot accept the fact that he is sovereign and has created all things for himself. I suggest that you Read Romans Chapter 7,8,9 and 10 very carefully.
@ChristianTULIP I love the God of the Bible. I love Jesus. I believe and have faith in Christ for my redemption. I have faith in the blood of Christ to save me. I put my faith and trust in Christ alone for my salvation. I confess that Jesus is Lord.
God is love. God wants all men to be reconciled to him through Christ. Not all will accept this invitation but it is still there and salvation is for all that would accept his free gift by placing their faith in Christ.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
2) We cannot prevent the lost from coming to Christ - The lost prevent themselves from coming to Christ because of their spiritually dead state, so you are incorrect. You have a very low view of sin and high view of man. We preach the gospel to all - but at the end of the day know that only God's Elect will accept it!
@ChristianTULIP You have a very low view of sound doctrine and biblical understanding. You just don't get it do you? The Gospel is presented and the Holy Spirit convicts. Man comes to God for mercy in humility because he realizes his sinful state and his need for a savior.
Did you ever read the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector? That is a clear example of how you are justified before God. Repent and plead for mercy.
Correction - The gospel is presented and rejected by man because he is Spiritually dead in sin. Only God's Elect will accept it because they are first made born again (Ressurected from their dead sin states). This is the only reason why a sinner will repent and plead - because it is granted to him by God. Stop putting the cart before the horse. Salvation comes from the Lord - not your flesh!
12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
Yes the gospel condemns the unsaved who reject Christ. You need to start basing your theological faith on the scriptures and taking a high view of SIn:
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
@ChristianTULIP The Gospel is presented and the Holy Spirit convicts. There is no such thing as unconditional regeneration. The condition to being saved is having faith in Christ. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Limited atonement proven wrong by this one scripture.
1 John 2:2 NIV
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.
Also regarding salvation.
1 Timothy 4:9,10 NIV
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
1John2:2 - "Whole World" = Those called to salvation out of the world from Jews and Gentiles (The Elect)
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine
@ChristianTULIP Christ is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world not just of the elect. God so loved the world not just the elect that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes might have eternal life and not perish. God shows his love by sending Christ to die for sinners. Where in the Bible does it state that there are elect and non-elect sinners? Where does it say explicitly that God wants anyone to go to Hell?
@ChristianTULIP Are the Jews not considered God's chosen people? Or elect. Yet they were unfaithful to God, worshiped other gods, and even rejected Christ. Since God chose Israel then how come not all of them were saved? How come most of them rejected Christ and the Gospel? What did Christ say to them?
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ...... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
2Peter3:9 - "Anyone and Everyone" = God's Elect, not universal humanity, Peter is writing to the Church. If God was not willing that all universal humanity should perish - he would grant repentance to all universal humanity which he does not do:
Part 1) Outward Jews are Not God's People. Only Spiritual Jews made up of outward Jews and Gentiles are God's Chosen People. These are God's Elect whom God desires to become saved and actually saved them:
Rom9:6
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
18 Yes, Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
1John2:2 - "SIns of the Whole World" - Referring to the sins of the Elect Gentiles and Jews outside of the Church John is addressing. The Elect are all of God's sheep throughout all time from every tribe and tongue:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Rom5:18 - "New life for everyone" = This refers to to God's Elect only. The passage focuses on God's people alone. All of God's people have inherited Adams Condemnation and now all of God's people are brought into a new life in Christ. Verse 15 uses the Word "Many" which tips us off that Universalism is not being taught.
@ChristianTULIP Excuse me? I'm not a Universalist. Christ has paid the sin penalty of every man but salvation is a gift that you need to receive by having faith in Christ.
Salvation is available to all but not all are saved.
Christ did not pay the penalty of every human being. If he did - then all human beings would be saved. Salvation is a gift for God's Elect - who will receive it because God first changes their dead sin natures in an act of new birth. Salvation is not available - it is SECURED and APPLIED to God's Elect unconditionally.
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Christ atoned for the sins of the world. The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Are you saying Christ died for some sins and not others? How do you make a distinction between dying for the sins of the world and particular people?
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
And the reason why the outward Jews rejected the gospel is because they were not true inward spiritual Jews. I have already provided you the scriptures - go back and re-read. A Jew is not one outwardly - but one inwardly. Those who rejected the gospel in Acts 13:46 - were outward, unsaved Jews.
Roamsn9:24-25 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
God's Elect (outward Jews and Gentiles) are the true spiritual jews who make up God's spiritual Israel.
You said that Christ atones for the Sins of the World, yet you fail to realize that the World is God's Elect, not universal Humanity. Jesus came to atone for the sins of his Sheep, Elect, Chosen, remnant. These are the "World" that the scriptures teach. Please produce a verse that says Jesus Atoned for the universal sins of every man, woman and child from the beginning to the end of time despite if they will ever believe or not.
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
2Cor5:19-20 - "reconciling the World" = Reconciling all of God's Elect who are in the World. "Message of Reconciliation" = will only be accepted by God's Elect, the rest will naturally reject it (1Cor2:14)
2Cor5:14 - "One died for all" = All of God's Elect. You need to stop isolating verses and read the whole cousel of God.
@ChristianTULIP You are superimposing your man-made theology on the scriptures instead of letting the scriptures dictate your doctrinal position. That is totally backwards.
Did God have a relationship with Adam? If the fall never happened then would God have a relationship with everyone or only some? Do not all die because of Adam? Are not all made alive through Christ? Through Christ mankind is reconciled to God. God wants all reconciled but not all will accept this fact.
I let the scriptures speak - but you dont accept them. No where in the scriptures does it teach that all fallen sinners will be made alive in Christ, be reconciled and have a relationship with Christ. This is unscriptural humanism and your logic about Adam is very fleshly and illogical. Please stick to the scriptures - not man made analogies.
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
2Cor5:18-20 = The "world" here is referring to God's Elect (John17:9). Jesus died to pay for their sins (Matt1:21) The message of reconciliation will always be rejected by the unelect because theyre Dead in SIn and undesiring(1Cor2:14) Only God's elect will hear/accept the message because they were unconditionally chosen, elected,predestinated to Salvation (Eph1:4-6, Roman8:28-30) and the Spirit unconditionally ressurects through new birth (Col2:13,Eph2:1)
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:24-26 - This verse is describing what has been done for God's Elect. It is God's Elect who are justified freely by his Grace. Grace is an unmerited favor granted upon sinners that requires nothing in and of the sinner. It is grace that grants faith to God's people alone as well as everything Gd requires.
@ChristianTULIP Speaking of sinners. Christ died for sinners. There is no distinction in the Bible between elect and non-elect sinners. Christ died for sins as in all sins. You cannot make a distinction between persons based on that either. The determining factor is those that by having faith accept the free gift of salvation.
The faith comes from you. You are personally accountable to God. You have to take responsibility for accepting or rejecting Christ.
Correction - Jesus Died for God's Elect sinners. He did not suffer on the cross in vain to pay for universal sin whether ot not anyone would ever believe on him. Christ was not a failure. He accomplished his mission of securing salvation for all of his believers alone by paying for their individual sins. The scriptures make this as well as Election very clear. Election is a biblical doctrine - even if your flesh doesnt like it.
@ChristianTULIP Christ died for all sins which would include all men. Salvation is a free gift that needs to be received by faith. Faith is the condition of salvation. Christ paid the sin penalty of all men in full. It is by having faith in his shed blood on the cross that you are saved.
Just like the OT, the blood of the passover lamb needed to be applied to the door posts to escape the judgment of God and the angel of death. You need to apply Christ's blood to you to escape condemnation.
2Cor5:19 - "Reconciling the World" = This again is referring to the God's Elect, not Universal Humanity. God's Elect are all his sheep, chosen, remnant out of the world whom Christ Justified:
@ChristianTULIP Before the fall God had a direct relationship with Adam. Let's just suppose that the fall never happened. Now would God only have had a relationship with some or with all.
Now we have the fall and the relationship was broken. Now everyone is born in a fallen state. God sent Christ so that all men could be reconciled through Christ. The key here is that you are reconciled through Christ. This offer of reconciliation is available to all men through Christ.
Reconciliation is not some mere offer which God hopes and prays men will choose. Fallen man is dead in trespasses/sins (Eph2:1, Col2:13) His mind is at enmity against God (Rom8:7). No one would ever choose reconciliation if left to himself. Sinners are naturally born enemies of God and children of wrath (Eph2:3)
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
2Cor5:18-20 - "Reconciled us" & "Reconciling the World" = This is referring to Gods Elect who will be reconciled by Grace alone according to God's decision, not ours.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.
22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
1Tim4:9-10 - "All Men" = Referring to The Elect only because God unconditionally chose these men before the foundation of the World to become saved and go through the Ordo Salutis (Romans8:28-30). In that 1Tim reads "Especially those that believe" indicates those Elect who have already experienced the faith stage in the Order of salvation cycle.
@ChristianTULIP So are you calling God a liar when he says he wants all men to be saved and repent and come to a knowledge of the truth?
If you think the order of the salvation cycle is regeneration first then you are sadly mistaken. Without faith it is impossible to please God. You need to have faith in Christ to be saved.
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
Sorry - Arminianism is Bad Theology which should be rejected by any God centered biblical Christian. Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature. This false confidence now fills the evangelical world; from the self-esteem gospel, to the health and wealth gospel, from those who have transformed the gospel into a product to be sold and sinners into consumers who want to buy, to others who... treat Christian faith as being true simply because it works.
Calvinism and Arminianism are BOTH flawed theologies. That's because they were developed by men, and anything man tries to figure out is always filtered through his limited understanding and wisdom.You know, you keep harping on so-called "works of the flesh" as meaning that a God given free will is somehow a works based salvation. The problem with your theory is that it doesn't hold water when compared to other free gifts that are given and received. For instance, I could offer to give (contd)
someone a million dollars, and I could offer it to someone who doesn't deserve it. Now, does my giving that person the money make them worthy of receiving it? No. If they refuse to accept it, is the offer not bona fide? No. If they squander all of the wealth and lose it, does that mean they never really had it in the first place? No. If I promise never, under any circumstances, to take the gift of money away from them, does that mean they cannot attempt to return it? No. The truth is, (contd)
that the only way they won't have that money is if they refuse to accept it. Their ability to say yes or no does not even remotely qualify as "earning" it. The fact of the matter is that a gift cannot belong to someone unless it is given by someone and received by someone. A gift that someone is forced to receive against their will is not a gift-- it's a curse. Why would God command men to write down thousands of words to mankind to tell them what He doesn't really mean to say?
According to God's Word, He has said that not many wise are called. If the Bible teaches us that most people who are saved aren't going to be of the intellectual crowd, then the idea that we somehow need a five bullet-point presentation to explain salvation to a lost and dying world becomes even more absurd. Most of the theology books written by men are just pages upon pages of confusing bloviation. Jesus said a little child could understand salvation, it is we who complicate the matter.
And Jesus never taught that a "literal Child" could understand salvation. He taught that people who become born again (converted) naturally accept the kingdom as little children - meaning they are devoid of sinful pride and posess a spirit of humblness, brokeness before God as unworthy children of God. (Matt18:3)
In no way does this imply that Christians are to be ignorant of the theological teachings of scripture. This type of reasoning is most unsound.
Gee, if little children can come to Jesus, how difficult can it be? The bottom line: little children LITERALLY were coming to Jesus, and he LITERALLY received them. We are LIKEWISE commanded to do it the same way. If little children don't understand Calvinism, arminianism, or any other "isms," and they can still receive Jesus, how hard is it?
1) I dont disagree that literal "little children" were coming to Jesus (by grace) - but this in no way implies that everyone should disregard the scriptures and biblical theology. The Bible is God's rule of faith for man - which we are commanded to study (2Tim2:15) and uphold sound doctrine(Titus1:9). The Bible says that those who are first "converted" will come to him as little children, meaning in a spirit of brokeneness, humbleness and devoid of pride. Sorry - Your reasoning is in error.
Who said men shouldn't learn sound doctrine? What the Bible says is that we are to come as little children. Little children don't know anything, and must learn as they grow up. Little children aren't expected to know everything and neither is a lost sinner.
Incorrect - Regeneration produces in a sinner a knowledge of their sin and deep conviction of why they need Christ. Not all regenerated creatures may have a deep understanding of Theology at regeneration - but God the Holy Spirit will teach them and keep them in a doctrinal understanding that gives all of the glory and credit to God for their salvation - and none to their supposed freewill flesh. We find this in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace which Calvinism defends.
A sinner who comes to Christ is shown his sin and need for Christ. This is absolute and a work of The Holy Spirit. In that a sinner comes to Christ as a "little child" means that he comes to Christ realizing these truths devoid of pride. Your notion that people come to Christ with literal "mental facultys" of Children is wrong and a misreading of a verse that I've now expounded upon a few times.
I'm afraid you are reading too much literalism into Mathew 18:3 - which if you bother to read it will discover that it teaches that ONCE a sinner is converted THEN they will come as little children meaning - devoid of self pride. The verse does not teach that sound doctrine and the scriptures should be disregarded because we should have the mentality of children!
What would be the point of a sinner coming to Christ after he is converted? If he is now converted, he is no longer in his sins, and needs no repentance. Jesus said, "I've come to call NOT the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Again, you have the cart before the horse.
The point of a sinner coming to Christ after his conversion is - actually a natural response to his conversion. Regeneration produces the fruits of Faith and Repentance which continue as a lifelong manifestation in the life of one who is being sanctified by God until Glorification. God's Elect are NOT righteous before regeneration - and these are who he calls. Get yourself a book by Dr. RC Sproul titled "The Essentials of the Christian Faith" from Ligonier ministrys.
I think a better idea would be to pick up a good inductive study bible and read what God has to say to us for ourselves. The problem with reading books about the Bible is that the information is filtered through the ideology of some man.
So are you claiming that Martin Luther's book "The Bondage of the WIll" is not based on an inductive study of the Bible? It seems to me that you will say anything to justify your lack of biblical knowledge and ignorance on Sound doctrinal theology. Please demonstrate How Martin Luthers book is not based on an inductive study of the Bible! But of course you would not listen to the church fathers -you even repudiate the very scriptures themselves by Ignoring the verses that prove you wrong,
What I'm saying is that the Bible itself is our best source of information. even Godly men are sometimes wrong, and even disagree with one another. If Godly men were always right in their doctrines, we wouldn't have hundreds of different denominations as we do now. Even within Calvinism, there are those who would seriously disagree with you.
ALthough Church fathers may have disagreed on "Nonessential doctrines" throughout the ages - The doctrine of Original sin and the bondage of the WIll is an "essential doctrine" of which the Church Fathers from August
Jesus died to save only the elect from the wrath of God. Ltd atonement is true within time. Yet, Jesus is the Savior of all men, ransomed all men, and God desires that none perish & all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. God being fully Sovereign & ransom paid inherently guaranteeing salvation in God's Sovereign conclusion of what He begins... obviously, hell is not eternal. Rather, Jesus destroyed Satan on the cross. Satan, flesh, this world, sin, death, hell destroyed last day
graceexplosion 3 months ago
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To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 5 months ago
Christian Truthhammer?This boy is extremely ignorant and arrogant.if God does ever show him the truth,he'll sure have a lot of words to eat.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Stand for the Faith,
You can "stand for the faith" that you claim your flesh chose - we will "stand for the Faith" that God granted to us by Unmerited Grace. It is obvious which Theology is God's and which is man's.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
Stand Alone in faith,
The Biblical fact is that God has Unconditionally elected and predestinated to save a people. The Scriptures are crystal clear on this. Salvation is a gift to them:
Eph1:4-6
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
cont..
But instead of accepting the truth of Election and Predestination - you choose to take words that apply to God's Elect and apply them universally. It's like taking words "us" and "we" from Ephesians 1:4-6 and apply them to Universal Humanity. This is exactly what you do with words such as "Anyone", Everyone", "World" and the like. Very unsound and to be rejected!
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP No, you choose to believe Augustine's twisted theology that influenced Calvin.
Do you know what context is? If so, then it is perfectly clear that God so loved the world. The only way you can reject this reality is because you have refused to accept the truth so God is letting you believe a lie. You have chosen man's theology over God's truth.
It is your heretical theological stances that need to be publicly refuted and rejected.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Choose to believe? The scriptures reject that idea because by nature fallen sinners are spiritually dead and unable to act outside of their nature(1Cor2:14). If man desires to believe - it is only because God first regenerated him unconditional on anything in man (John1:13). All the Glory and credit goes to God - not mans flesh as your Theology teaches. Please stop your rhetoric and lets stick with the scriptures.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Yes, why don't you stick with the scriptures. Yes, you are responsible for your choice to either accept the Gospel or reject it. If you are using Calvinism as a way out of you being responsible for your decisions then you are going to be sorely disappointed. You are not regenerated first. You believe and have faith first. Faith is not a work. Faith comes by hearing the word of truth which is the Gospel.
Scripture proof follows cont'd
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
There is no "responsible choice" taught anywhere in the scriptures. That is the ancient heresy of Pelagianism. As a matter of fact the scriptures teach that it is God who works in people to will in order to do God's good pleasure:
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP That verse in Philippians is talking about people who were already saved so you are misapplying that to salvation.
John 12:48 NIV
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
The scriptures teach that man MUST be regenerated first in order to believe. You have a very low view - yet scripture has a very high view of it. Man is DEAD in trespasses and Sins. His mind is at ENMITY against God. How can one who's mind is naturally against God choose him?? RIdiculous Humanistic error!!
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You have a very false view. In order to be regenerated you have to have the Holy Spirit reside inside of you. That is reserved only for those that believe and have faith in Christ.
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Galatians 3:5 NIV
Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
Ephesians 1:13 NIV
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Galatians 3:14 NIV
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Luke 8:12 NIV
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31 NIV
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Faith does come from hearing and hearing from the word of God ----but how do you suppose man is able to HEAR it?? This is regeneration! He who has ears to hear, will hear. And those who have ears are granted those ears (and sight) by the Holy Spirit via Regeneration.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP It is not regeneration. It is by the Holy Spirit convicting the sinner. Then you need to repent and have faith in Christ to be saved.
You cannot receive the Holy Spirit and be born again or regenerated unless you have faith in Christ first.
Acts 2:38 NIV
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Ephesians 1:13,14 NIV
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
Notice the Holy Spirit comes after you believe?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Here is a direct question and a direct answer.
Acts 16:30,31 NIV
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
John 1:6,7 NIV
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
John 5:24 NIV
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:35 NIV
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 7:38 NIV
38Whoever believes in me, as[a] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
John 11:25,26 NIV
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 12:44 NIV
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
Acts 4:4 NIV
4But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
1 Timothy 4:9,10 NIV
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Romans 4:4,5 NIV
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Romans 10:17 NIV
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Acts 10:42,43 NIV
42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Romans 3:21-23 NIV
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
2 Thessalonians 2:12 NIV
12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Titus 1:15,16 NIV
15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
John 1:11,12 NIV
11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Just leave your theological snobbery at the door. Your human philosophy and following the doctrine's of men can not save you.
What did Christ say? Not what did Calvin think. Not what you think. But what did Christ say?
John 12:32 NIV
32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Only a wicked man would reject and try to twist this truth. Repent and be saved the biblical way by having faith in the blood of Christ for your redemption.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith John12:32 - "All men" = these words refer to All of God's Elect people who will be irresistable drawn to him by the Holy Spirit from the beginning to the end of time:
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP After the cross what did Jesus say regarding drawing?
John 12:31-33 NIV
31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
You can resist the Holy Spirit.
Acts 7:51 NIV
"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
@StandForTheFaith
And how do you suppose any spiritually dead, God hating sinner will believe in Jesus as per Acts 16:30? Answer) Only by the direct and irresistable power of the Holy Spirit who will regenerate and grant faith by Grace Alone:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Are you spiritually blind? People can resist the Holy Spirit. The Jews were the elect and most of them resisted the Holy Spirit.
The Bible clearly teaches faith comes first and then you are regenerated. Salvation is a gift from God that is accepted by having faith.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
An outward Jew is not necessarily an Elect Jew - you need to go back and reread the scriptures I have provided you. Those outward Jews who resist the Spirit are Not elect and in the verse Jesus clearly says "YOU ALWAYS RESIST AS YOUR FATHER DID". The key word is ALWAYS which teaches us that the unelect will ALWAYS resist the OUTWARD CALL of the gospel. Please read before you bring bad accusations.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
The scriptures do not teach that man must first choose his own faith in order to become born again. The scriptures clearly teach just the opposite:
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is why anyone would receive him in verse 12 - verse 13 gives the exact reason!
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP The Bible clearly states that without faith it is impossible to please God. The faith needs to come from you. If it came from God then God would be pleasing himself.
You need to repent and then have faith in Christ to be saved. You do not receive the Holy Spirit prior to putting your faith in Christ.
Mark 2:5 NIV
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Correction - God gives Faith to some sinners. Faith is not created by the flesh, it is given by God. (EPh2:8). Likewise Repentance also does not originate in the flesh, it is also given by God to some sinners (Acts11:18). God grants faith and repentance to those he saves by first regenerating them through a monergistic act of the Holy Spirit (John1:13).
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Lies. Lies come from the Devil.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Mark 2:5 = does not teach that forgivness came as a result of faith first produced by the paralytics flesh. Faith was given to this sinner as given to all Elect sinners, In John9 - we learn that God already predestined this for his own reasons:
John 9:3
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the WORKS OF GOD should be made manifest in him
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You reject truth. There is nothing anyone can do. Christ could appear right before your very eyes and you still will reject the truth.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Luke5:20 - "Seeing their faith" does not address why and how that faith was produced. That answer is found in Eph2:8 - BY GRACE
Luke 7:50 - "Your faith" does not address why and how that faith was produced. The answer is found in Eph2:8 - BY GRACE
John8:30 - "Their faith" does not address why and how that faith was produced. The answer is found in Eph2:8 - BY GRACE
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Grace is unmerited favor meaning that you do not deserve salvation by your own merit. That has nothing to do with the fact that you need to receive the free gift of salvation by having faith in Christ.
You still need to have faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
John12:11 - "their faith" does not address why and how that faith was produced. The answer is found in Eph2:8 - BY GRACE
Acts 20:21 - The verse does not in any way teach that repentance and faith originates in mans flesh. The scriptures teach that Faith and repentance are granted by God.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Romans 1:16,17 NIV
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[b]
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Romans 1:16-17 - And who are the "everyone" who will believe? Who are these whosoever "Jews and gentiles"? The scriptures answer this:
Romans 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You know what? You have a problem. It is called spiritual blindness. I could quote the entire Bible and you still will reject the truth.
You are unteachable. You have the freedom to believe what you want. I will stand for the faith and contend for truth. Instead of me continuing this just read over all of the numerous arguments and scriptures. Better yet. Read the Bible for yourself without the Calvinistic distortions.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Spiritual blindness? According to your theology I should be able to fix that with my freewill? You see how your theology fails? You contradict your own bad theology. If you want to stand for truth - then stand for sovereign Grace, not for the Flesh! Every part of Salvation is the Lords and he grants it to whom he wishes according to his sovereignty. Man's flesh is not the deciding factor in any part of it.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Romans 3:22,23 NIV
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through faith in his blood.
26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting?.... No, but on that of faith.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Romans 3:22-23 = The verse is addressing the fact that God is the God of Jews and gentiles as context shows in 3:29. Within this context, those who believe (granted faith) are God's Elect out of Jews and Gentiles.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Did you read my last message? You only want to hear the sound of your own voice. I have made and proven my position with the scriptures. What you do with it is your problem.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Sound of my own voice? That's funny - all I have done is present you with the scriptural evidence. That means that I like to hear the voice of the scriptures - not false, man centered Theology after the flesh. Bad theology always bases its beliefs on what feels right. But True Theology bases its faith on the scriptures, regardless of how we feel about it.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
All you have done is proven your ignorance of the scriptures. Just because you can isolate a few verses, doesn't mean you are interpreting them correctly. You need to read and understand them in the context of the whole counsel of God. Words such as "whosoever", "All", "World" do not always mean Universal humanity. They are often used to express the fullness or completness of a particular people.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
continued......
for example, who are the "whole world" in Luke 2:1 to be taxed? Of course this applies to those qualified to the Roman Empire at the time. So the words "whole world" do not and cannot apply to universal humanity at the time:
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
continued....
You are making the same mistake by assuming Jesus died for all universal humanity (instead of the Elect alone) just because you find some verses that use the word "World" , "All" and "whosoever". When it comes to salvation - these words are already qualified and defined to the invisible Church (Elect of God).
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Romans 4:4,5 NIV
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 5:1,2 NIV
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Romans 4:4-5, 5:1-2 = And why will a man trust God? where does his faith originate from? The verses do not teach the flesh as you would like to believe. They originate from sovereign Grace. Faith , repentance, works are all granted to God's Elect by Grace alone according to the WILL OF GOD alone:
Rom9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
John12:31 - "Draw All men" = refers to the irresistable drawing of all of God's Elect:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP So now you are changing the scriptures to suit your man-made theology?
It says draw all men and that is exactly what it means. Drawing is like wooing. It is resistible.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Ignoring what scriptures - I have answered every scripture youve given me. However - you are clearly ignoring the scripture I give you. Lets try this again - God will draw ALL of God's Elect only. We know this because Jesus himself said "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM". And we know that the only people that will be drawn are all that the Father gave Jesus to save "ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME". They will come without question.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
John 12:31-33 NIV
31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
John12:31-33 - "Draw all men" = this is not referring to all universal humanity. This is referring to God's elect because no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them and all that the father gives to Jesus will definetly come to him:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
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@ChristianTULIP
John 3:16-18 NIV
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[b]
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Acts 7:51 - "You always resist the Holy Spirit" = Notice the word ALWAYS. The unelect will ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit because they do not receive the inward call - only the outward preaching of the gospel.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP I think you are running out of lies. That verse is referring to the Jews who happened to be part of God's elect.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP That is a lie. You have promoted a false Gospel. Christ came to die for sinners, period. All of them not just some.
Being saved is not passive you have to repent and have faith and believe in Christ for your redemption.
If you think that you were somehow passively saved then you are not saved at all.
I would suggest you forget the doctrines of men and start all over again with just the Bible and let it dictate your doctrine and not the other way around.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Christ came into the world to die for all sinners that the Father gave him to save out of the world. These are his Elect, chosen, sheep, remnant, people, etc. (Eph1:4-6, Rom8:28-30) God grants these sinners repentance, faith and good works in an act of monergistic regeneration (John1:13)
Even the very act of faith is predetermined for the Elect by God:
Acts13:48 - And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP According to this verse all Gentiles have been granted repentance so why are not all Gentiles saved?
Acts 11:18 NIV
18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
You need to stop isolating verses. Acts 11:18 - Does not teach that all universal gentiles are saved. Acts13:48 clarifies which Gentiles will be saved:
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP The condition for being saved is having faith as the scriptures clearly teach.
John 1:12 NIV
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Romans 3:22 NIV
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
2 Thessalonians 2:12 NIV
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
Salvation is pre-determined and secured for God's Elect ALONE in Christ. At the appointed time - the Spirit brings them to Christ through unconditional regeneration and granting of faith and repentance:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning CHOSEN you to SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP What do you think the Gospel is for? Did Christ die for all sins or did he not? Did Christ conquer death or did he not? Why do you fight against the Gospel of Christ and prevent the lost from coming to Christ and believing and having faith and thus be saved? Do you not care that there are lost people out there that need the saving grace of God? Do you only care about yourself because you consider yourself to be one of the elect? Is that not the ultimate in pride?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
1_ The Gospel is to be preached to all humanity - however only God's Elect will accept it while the unelect will always willfully reject it. The Gospel serves to save the Elect and condemn the unelect. Christ died for God's Elect. Christ conquered death for God's Elect. Christ will return to gather God's elect. The gift of salvation is for God's Elect people whom he unconditionally chose to save before the foundation of the world (Eph1:4-6).
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP So you are saying that the Gospel is powerless? That is a direct insult to God himself and the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus, on the cross.
The Gospel serves to condemn the unelect? That is blasphemy. You do not get these twisted teachings from the Bible.
God always has conditions. The condition for salvation is faith.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
The Gospel is not powerless - because it will always accomplish its purpose. God's Elect are guaranteed to accept it. Paul answers this kind of nonsense directly when confronted with the question as to why not all people will believe the gospel:
Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
John 3:18-20 NIV
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[a] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Romans 2:8 NIV
8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
2 Timothy 3:8,9 NIV
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
What is a direct insult to God which you ignorantly commit- is saying that Jesus spilled his blood with no guarantee that anyone would ever become saved, because it all depends on the ridiculous notion of a spiritually dead sinner being required to excercise freewill to choose it. Illogical, nonsensical and unscriptural! This is blasphemey!
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Can you make someone love you?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Excuse me, conditions? You can create your own false gospel of conditions - but we'll stick to the scriptures gospel of Grace which teaches us that salvation is UNCONDITIONAL and dependant on GOD"S CHOICE:
Romans 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You are saved by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Hebrews 11:6 NIV
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
You have a problem with the God of the Bible. You cannot accept the fact that he is sovereign and has created all things for himself. I suggest that you Read Romans Chapter 7,8,9 and 10 very carefully.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP I love the God of the Bible. I love Jesus. I believe and have faith in Christ for my redemption. I have faith in the blood of Christ to save me. I put my faith and trust in Christ alone for my salvation. I confess that Jesus is Lord.
God is love. God wants all men to be reconciled to him through Christ. Not all will accept this invitation but it is still there and salvation is for all that would accept his free gift by placing their faith in Christ.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You are personally accountable for either accepting or rejecting Christ.
John 12:47-49 NIV
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
continued....
John 3:36
..and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18
... but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
2) We cannot prevent the lost from coming to Christ - The lost prevent themselves from coming to Christ because of their spiritually dead state, so you are incorrect. You have a very low view of sin and high view of man. We preach the gospel to all - but at the end of the day know that only God's Elect will accept it!
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You have a very low view of sound doctrine and biblical understanding. You just don't get it do you? The Gospel is presented and the Holy Spirit convicts. Man comes to God for mercy in humility because he realizes his sinful state and his need for a savior.
Did you ever read the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector? That is a clear example of how you are justified before God. Repent and plead for mercy.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Correction - The gospel is presented and rejected by man because he is Spiritually dead in sin. Only God's Elect will accept it because they are first made born again (Ressurected from their dead sin states). This is the only reason why a sinner will repent and plead - because it is granted to him by God. Stop putting the cart before the horse. Salvation comes from the Lord - not your flesh!
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Salvation comes by faith.
Ephesians 1:12-14 NIV
12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Yes the gospel condemns the unsaved who reject Christ. You need to start basing your theological faith on the scriptures and taking a high view of SIn:
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP The Gospel is good news, not bad news. The Gospel is for salvation. If you do not have faith in Christ then you have rejected Christ.
Romans 1:16,17 NIV
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP The Gospel is presented and the Holy Spirit convicts. There is no such thing as unconditional regeneration. The condition to being saved is having faith in Christ. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Titus 2:11 NIV
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Romans 1:16 NIV
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
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@StandForTheFaith
Order of Salvation (Ordu Salutis) = 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
Limited atonement proven wrong by this one scripture.
1 John 2:2 NIV
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.
Also regarding salvation.
1 Timothy 4:9,10 NIV
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
1John2:2 - "Whole World" = Those called to salvation out of the world from Jews and Gentiles (The Elect)
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Christ is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world not just of the elect. God so loved the world not just the elect that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes might have eternal life and not perish. God shows his love by sending Christ to die for sinners. Where in the Bible does it state that there are elect and non-elect sinners? Where does it say explicitly that God wants anyone to go to Hell?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Are the Jews not considered God's chosen people? Or elect. Yet they were unfaithful to God, worshiped other gods, and even rejected Christ. Since God chose Israel then how come not all of them were saved? How come most of them rejected Christ and the Gospel? What did Christ say to them?
Luke 13:34 NIV
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ...... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
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@StandForTheFaith
2Peter3:9 - "Anyone and Everyone" = God's Elect, not universal humanity, Peter is writing to the Church. If God was not willing that all universal humanity should perish - he would grant repentance to all universal humanity which he does not do:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Part 1) Outward Jews are Not God's People. Only Spiritual Jews made up of outward Jews and Gentiles are God's Chosen People. These are God's Elect whom God desires to become saved and actually saved them:
Rom9:6
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
continued....
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
continued.....
Rom2:29-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
1 John 2:2 NLT
2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
Romans 5:18 NLT
18 Yes, Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:19 NIV
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ,
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
1John2:2 - "SIns of the Whole World" - Referring to the sins of the Elect Gentiles and Jews outside of the Church John is addressing. The Elect are all of God's sheep throughout all time from every tribe and tongue:
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
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ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Rom5:18 - "New life for everyone" = This refers to to God's Elect only. The passage focuses on God's people alone. All of God's people have inherited Adams Condemnation and now all of God's people are brought into a new life in Christ. Verse 15 uses the Word "Many" which tips us off that Universalism is not being taught.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Excuse me? I'm not a Universalist. Christ has paid the sin penalty of every man but salvation is a gift that you need to receive by having faith in Christ.
Salvation is available to all but not all are saved.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Christ did not pay the penalty of every human being. If he did - then all human beings would be saved. Salvation is a gift for God's Elect - who will receive it because God first changes their dead sin natures in an act of new birth. Salvation is not available - it is SECURED and APPLIED to God's Elect unconditionally.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
Christ died to pay the penalty for his sheep (Elect) alone, not Universal humanity:
John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
Christ came into the world to die for the sins of his people alone, not universal humanity (All people):
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save HIS people from their sins.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP According to your logic I could use Matthew 15:24 to prove that Christ only died for Jews. Are you a Jew?
Matthew 15:24 NIV
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Christ atoned for the sins of the world. The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Are you saying Christ died for some sins and not others? How do you make a distinction between dying for the sins of the world and particular people?
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Mathew 15:24 - "Lost sheep of House of Israel" = Gods Elect out of Jews and Gentiles:
Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP No, you are in error. Salvation comes from the Jews. It was presented to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.
Even though the Jews were God's chosen people, or elect, a lot of them rejected the Gospel.
Acts 13:46 NIV
46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
And the reason why the outward Jews rejected the gospel is because they were not true inward spiritual Jews. I have already provided you the scriptures - go back and re-read. A Jew is not one outwardly - but one inwardly. Those who rejected the gospel in Acts 13:46 - were outward, unsaved Jews.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
continued.....
Roamsn9:24-25 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
God's Elect (outward Jews and Gentiles) are the true spiritual jews who make up God's spiritual Israel.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
You said that Christ atones for the Sins of the World, yet you fail to realize that the World is God's Elect, not universal Humanity. Jesus came to atone for the sins of his Sheep, Elect, Chosen, remnant. These are the "World" that the scriptures teach. Please produce a verse that says Jesus Atoned for the universal sins of every man, woman and child from the beginning to the end of time despite if they will ever believe or not.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
2 Corinthians 5:19,20 NIV
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 5:14 NIV
14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
2Cor5:19-20 - "reconciling the World" = Reconciling all of God's Elect who are in the World. "Message of Reconciliation" = will only be accepted by God's Elect, the rest will naturally reject it (1Cor2:14)
2Cor5:14 - "One died for all" = All of God's Elect. You need to stop isolating verses and read the whole cousel of God.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP You are superimposing your man-made theology on the scriptures instead of letting the scriptures dictate your doctrinal position. That is totally backwards.
Did God have a relationship with Adam? If the fall never happened then would God have a relationship with everyone or only some? Do not all die because of Adam? Are not all made alive through Christ? Through Christ mankind is reconciled to God. God wants all reconciled but not all will accept this fact.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
I let the scriptures speak - but you dont accept them. No where in the scriptures does it teach that all fallen sinners will be made alive in Christ, be reconciled and have a relationship with Christ. This is unscriptural humanism and your logic about Adam is very fleshly and illogical. Please stick to the scriptures - not man made analogies.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 NIV
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
2Cor5:18-20 = The "world" here is referring to God's Elect (John17:9). Jesus died to pay for their sins (Matt1:21) The message of reconciliation will always be rejected by the unelect because theyre Dead in SIn and undesiring(1Cor2:14) Only God's elect will hear/accept the message because they were unconditionally chosen, elected,predestinated to Salvation (Eph1:4-6, Roman8:28-30) and the Spirit unconditionally ressurects through new birth (Col2:13,Eph2:1)
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
Colossians 1:19,20 NIV
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Col1:19 - "All things" = refers to God Elect not universal Humanity. Read the entire Chapter. He has made US and delivered US (The Church)
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which HATH MADE US meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath DELIEVERED US from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom WE have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
continued,,,,
Verse 18 defines who the fullnes of verse 18 are:
18And he is the head of the body, THE CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Verse 21 defines who those who werereconciled in Verse 20:
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP The condition is having faith.
Romans 3:24-26 NIV
24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Romans 3:24-26 - This verse is describing what has been done for God's Elect. It is God's Elect who are justified freely by his Grace. Grace is an unmerited favor granted upon sinners that requires nothing in and of the sinner. It is grace that grants faith to God's people alone as well as everything Gd requires.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Speaking of sinners. Christ died for sinners. There is no distinction in the Bible between elect and non-elect sinners. Christ died for sins as in all sins. You cannot make a distinction between persons based on that either. The determining factor is those that by having faith accept the free gift of salvation.
The faith comes from you. You are personally accountable to God. You have to take responsibility for accepting or rejecting Christ.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Correction - Jesus Died for God's Elect sinners. He did not suffer on the cross in vain to pay for universal sin whether ot not anyone would ever believe on him. Christ was not a failure. He accomplished his mission of securing salvation for all of his believers alone by paying for their individual sins. The scriptures make this as well as Election very clear. Election is a biblical doctrine - even if your flesh doesnt like it.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Christ died for all sins which would include all men. Salvation is a free gift that needs to be received by faith. Faith is the condition of salvation. Christ paid the sin penalty of all men in full. It is by having faith in his shed blood on the cross that you are saved.
Just like the OT, the blood of the passover lamb needed to be applied to the door posts to escape the judgment of God and the angel of death. You need to apply Christ's blood to you to escape condemnation.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
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ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
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ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
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ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
2Cor5:19 - "Reconciling the World" = This again is referring to the God's Elect, not Universal Humanity. God's Elect are all his sheep, chosen, remnant out of the world whom Christ Justified:
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Before the fall God had a direct relationship with Adam. Let's just suppose that the fall never happened. Now would God only have had a relationship with some or with all.
Now we have the fall and the relationship was broken. Now everyone is born in a fallen state. God sent Christ so that all men could be reconciled through Christ. The key here is that you are reconciled through Christ. This offer of reconciliation is available to all men through Christ.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
Reconciliation is not some mere offer which God hopes and prays men will choose. Fallen man is dead in trespasses/sins (Eph2:1, Col2:13) His mind is at enmity against God (Rom8:7). No one would ever choose reconciliation if left to himself. Sinners are naturally born enemies of God and children of wrath (Eph2:3)
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 NIV
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
It is clear God wants everyone reconciled
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
2Cor5:18-20 - "Reconciled us" & "Reconciling the World" = This is referring to Gods Elect who will be reconciled by Grace alone according to God's decision, not ours.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP
1 Corinthians 1:21 NLT
21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.
Galatians 3:22 NIV
22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
1Cor1:21 - "Save those that Believe" = The Elect. God grants faith to his Elect people:
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed
Gal3:22 - "Those that believe" - Only God's ELect will believe because it is given to them:
Philip1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@StandForTheFaith
1Tim4:9-10 - "All Men" = Referring to The Elect only because God unconditionally chose these men before the foundation of the World to become saved and go through the Ordo Salutis (Romans8:28-30). In that 1Tim reads "Especially those that believe" indicates those Elect who have already experienced the faith stage in the Order of salvation cycle.
ChristianTULIP 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP So are you calling God a liar when he says he wants all men to be saved and repent and come to a knowledge of the truth?
If you think the order of the salvation cycle is regeneration first then you are sadly mistaken. Without faith it is impossible to please God. You need to have faith in Christ to be saved.
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
@ChristianTULIP Isn't God the same? Does he ever change? This is what he has to say to you.
Ezekiel 33:11 NIV
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
StandForTheFaith 1 year ago
Sorry - Arminianism is Bad Theology which should be rejected by any God centered biblical Christian. Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature. This false confidence now fills the evangelical world; from the self-esteem gospel, to the health and wealth gospel, from those who have transformed the gospel into a product to be sold and sinners into consumers who want to buy, to others who... treat Christian faith as being true simply because it works.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Calvinism and Arminianism are BOTH flawed theologies. That's because they were developed by men, and anything man tries to figure out is always filtered through his limited understanding and wisdom.You know, you keep harping on so-called "works of the flesh" as meaning that a God given free will is somehow a works based salvation. The problem with your theory is that it doesn't hold water when compared to other free gifts that are given and received. For instance, I could offer to give (contd)
gloopey1 2 years ago
someone a million dollars, and I could offer it to someone who doesn't deserve it. Now, does my giving that person the money make them worthy of receiving it? No. If they refuse to accept it, is the offer not bona fide? No. If they squander all of the wealth and lose it, does that mean they never really had it in the first place? No. If I promise never, under any circumstances, to take the gift of money away from them, does that mean they cannot attempt to return it? No. The truth is, (contd)
gloopey1 2 years ago
that the only way they won't have that money is if they refuse to accept it. Their ability to say yes or no does not even remotely qualify as "earning" it. The fact of the matter is that a gift cannot belong to someone unless it is given by someone and received by someone. A gift that someone is forced to receive against their will is not a gift-- it's a curse. Why would God command men to write down thousands of words to mankind to tell them what He doesn't really mean to say?
gloopey1 2 years ago
According to God's Word, He has said that not many wise are called. If the Bible teaches us that most people who are saved aren't going to be of the intellectual crowd, then the idea that we somehow need a five bullet-point presentation to explain salvation to a lost and dying world becomes even more absurd. Most of the theology books written by men are just pages upon pages of confusing bloviation. Jesus said a little child could understand salvation, it is we who complicate the matter.
gloopey1 2 years ago
1Cor1:26 - in no way teaches that a Christian should be ignorant of what the scriptures teach. We are commanded to:
2 Tim2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
Neother does 1Cor1:26 teach that we should ignore the Bibles doctrinal teachings as Paul warned that:
2 Tim4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers..
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
continued....
And Jesus never taught that a "literal Child" could understand salvation. He taught that people who become born again (converted) naturally accept the kingdom as little children - meaning they are devoid of sinful pride and posess a spirit of humblness, brokeness before God as unworthy children of God. (Matt18:3)
In no way does this imply that Christians are to be ignorant of the theological teachings of scripture. This type of reasoning is most unsound.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Gee, if little children can come to Jesus, how difficult can it be? The bottom line: little children LITERALLY were coming to Jesus, and he LITERALLY received them. We are LIKEWISE commanded to do it the same way. If little children don't understand Calvinism, arminianism, or any other "isms," and they can still receive Jesus, how hard is it?
gloopey1 2 years ago
1) I dont disagree that literal "little children" were coming to Jesus (by grace) - but this in no way implies that everyone should disregard the scriptures and biblical theology. The Bible is God's rule of faith for man - which we are commanded to study (2Tim2:15) and uphold sound doctrine(Titus1:9). The Bible says that those who are first "converted" will come to him as little children, meaning in a spirit of brokeneness, humbleness and devoid of pride. Sorry - Your reasoning is in error.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Who said men shouldn't learn sound doctrine? What the Bible says is that we are to come as little children. Little children don't know anything, and must learn as they grow up. Little children aren't expected to know everything and neither is a lost sinner.
gloopey1 2 years ago
@gloopey1
Incorrect - Regeneration produces in a sinner a knowledge of their sin and deep conviction of why they need Christ. Not all regenerated creatures may have a deep understanding of Theology at regeneration - but God the Holy Spirit will teach them and keep them in a doctrinal understanding that gives all of the glory and credit to God for their salvation - and none to their supposed freewill flesh. We find this in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace which Calvinism defends.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
Incorrect? Little children DO know everything, because that's what I said. Is this what you're now saying?
gloopey1 2 years ago
@gloopey1
A sinner who comes to Christ is shown his sin and need for Christ. This is absolute and a work of The Holy Spirit. In that a sinner comes to Christ as a "little child" means that he comes to Christ realizing these truths devoid of pride. Your notion that people come to Christ with literal "mental facultys" of Children is wrong and a misreading of a verse that I've now expounded upon a few times.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
@gloopey1
I'm afraid you are reading too much literalism into Mathew 18:3 - which if you bother to read it will discover that it teaches that ONCE a sinner is converted THEN they will come as little children meaning - devoid of self pride. The verse does not teach that sound doctrine and the scriptures should be disregarded because we should have the mentality of children!
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
What would be the point of a sinner coming to Christ after he is converted? If he is now converted, he is no longer in his sins, and needs no repentance. Jesus said, "I've come to call NOT the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Again, you have the cart before the horse.
gloopey1 2 years ago
@gloopey1
The point of a sinner coming to Christ after his conversion is - actually a natural response to his conversion. Regeneration produces the fruits of Faith and Repentance which continue as a lifelong manifestation in the life of one who is being sanctified by God until Glorification. God's Elect are NOT righteous before regeneration - and these are who he calls. Get yourself a book by Dr. RC Sproul titled "The Essentials of the Christian Faith" from Ligonier ministrys.
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
I think a better idea would be to pick up a good inductive study bible and read what God has to say to us for ourselves. The problem with reading books about the Bible is that the information is filtered through the ideology of some man.
gloopey1 2 years ago
So are you claiming that Martin Luther's book "The Bondage of the WIll" is not based on an inductive study of the Bible? It seems to me that you will say anything to justify your lack of biblical knowledge and ignorance on Sound doctrinal theology. Please demonstrate How Martin Luthers book is not based on an inductive study of the Bible! But of course you would not listen to the church fathers -you even repudiate the very scriptures themselves by Ignoring the verses that prove you wrong,
ChristianTULIP 2 years ago
What I'm saying is that the Bible itself is our best source of information. even Godly men are sometimes wrong, and even disagree with one another. If Godly men were always right in their doctrines, we wouldn't have hundreds of different denominations as we do now. Even within Calvinism, there are those who would seriously disagree with you.
gloopey1 2 years ago
@gloopey1
ALthough Church fathers may have disagreed on "Nonessential doctrines" throughout the ages - The doctrine of Original sin and the bondage of the WIll is an "essential doctrine" of which the Church Fathers from August