Fareed Zakaria interviews Moisés Naím about Hugo Chavez

[schutztafell]

What a pityfull intervention of Naim. Don´t get me wrong, the guy is one of the most important venezuelans in therms of economy and trade knowledge, but this is just a made speech, with no bases, that is repeated by the whole nation´s opposition in their plot against Chavez. They don´t seem to realize that is exactly because of these mistakes that he keeps 60 o70% of popular support...

[abdulazizi1]

Hidup @ Viva Hugo Chavez! The true world leader of people. I pray for you to embrace Islam so you can be the leader - Imam for the whole Muslim. 

[luisbeck007]

Chavez did not kill one million people for oil with lies, nor 3000 nuclear weapons pointing to every nation in the world, nor investing 700 billion dollars per year on military expenditures, nor intelligent service agencies sending mails with Anthrax Virus to its own population, nor Kings on its constitution, nor Nazi retarded on CNN or FOX news, nor 13 trillion dollars debt.

[ElFrankus]

Moises Naim belongs to that 15% of the veneuelan population who never has had any hardship in Venezuela. He was Minister of Carlos Andres Perez, a government so corrupt it broke all records of corruption and had to be judged on that account. Moises Naim does not have to live in venezuela, he can sit quietly in his chair, in the US, and talk quietly all the Sh#t he can. He could do the same here, but: 1) Dollars are better 2) Few people would listen to him.

[hooah68]

are you suggesting these things make him necessarily wrong?

[ElFrankus]

Yes. He makes his analysis based on his own class.

[hooah68]

I'm inclined to believe that a PhD from one of the top universities in the world would be well aware of that type of bias, and hopefully would make his analysis on empirical evidence and research, rather than his own anecdotal experiences.

Also, unless your wiling to make more than just ad hominem attacks, it seems to me that you should give the guy a little more credit.

[ElFrankus]

Wall Street and the Fed were (are) full of Phd's from Ivy leagues, and see the mess they put us all in. When the press asks them what´s gonna happen with the economy they say they "feel" things are ion the right track, etc. if that is science...well..so i don´t think that an ivy league "paper " makes you god -like infallible. It was not and ad hominem attack, I was triyng to explain that he doesn´t share the fate of 90% of his countrymen, so he can be safely wrong.

[hooah68]

I'm not saying that all academics are infallible, what i am objecting to is precisely what you just repeated "he doesn´t share the fate of 90% of his countrymen, so he can be safely wrong." I don't know if Naim is right or wrong, but what i do know is that your repudiation of him simply because of his upbringing is blatantly wrong. If he is wrong then attack his arguments, not him.

I fail to understand what you find so erroneous about his answers in this interview anyways?

[ElFrankus]

I´m not attacking his upbringing, but the way he thinks: remember when Bush said that the super rich were "his base"? well, Naim thinks the same way. ..with the expected results. Because you´re North american you may not understand what a country with 80% of poor people means..

[ElFrankus]

As a matter of fact , I urge you to read "The open viens of Latin America" by Galeano.

[aes229]

And, if CAP was part of the all-powerful ruling elite, how did the judiciary, allied with the "oligarchic" senate of adecos and copeyanos, manage to remove him? And do you really believe that under chavez corruption has disappeared? Chavez uses PDVSA como una chequera! It furnishes his own personal checkbook. Everyone knows it, common! get serious. Furthermore, could today's judiciary every challenge the president's authority or legitimacy, as they did with CAP?

[aes229]

And all our Asamblea General does is give Chavez executive decree powers. The senate has become an extension of executive power. Our Republic is finished. You say Naim is wrong because he is merely arguing in favor of his class interests, etc. But i've spoken to rich people who like Chavez, and i've spoken to poor Venezuelans, from Petare and Catia, who loathe chavez. So what? Their social class doesn't prove any of them, rich or poor, right or wrong on that basis.

[aes229]

Finally, Chavez is a conniving and sinister little Machiavelli. He disbarred one of his political opponents (Leopoldo Lopez) from running for mayor of Greater Caracas, probably to stultify his political career. And he called for the incarceration of Manuel Rosales (the former opposition leader) months before our "revolutionary" Attorney General filed an indictiment against Rosales. In other words, our public institutions TAKE ORDERS FROM CHAVEZ DIRECTLY. What else do you need in order to see?

[ElFrankus]

Leopoldo Lopez is up to his neck in the coup of state of april 11th. There´s AMPLE VIDEO FOOTAGE of him doing all kinds of stuff. He should be behind bars, in any other country he would. Or shot against the wall. Here he speaks trash everyday.Manuel Rosales can´t even explain the car he bought yesterday, he stumbles and stutters. The man is pathetic.

[aes229]

So then you must think Chavez should be shot against the wall too for leading his coup in 1992?

[ElFrankus]

No, chavez spent time in Jail. If Leopoldito serves at least a year behind bars, he shouldn´t be shot. Would you agree that leopoldito´s actions are worth at least a year in jail?

[aes229]

What actions are those? Show me that Lopez planned or participated in the coup.

As for Baduel, if he's "rightist", as you say, so what? Is being a rightist a crime? I don't think you're insinuation there is very democratic. I'm not arguing that Baduel has this or that political leaning. I'm saying he was part of the MBR from the start and that he returned Chavez to power after the 2002 coup for which you think Lopez should go to jail.

[ElFrankus]

Lopez kicked one of the governments minister out of his house, he called ON TV for the FORCEFUL removal of government (you didnt like it when chavez appeared on TV to appease the other comandantes, -PR stunt for you- but you loved leopoldo calling on Venevision to find chavistas in ratholes and kill them. DOUBLE STANDARD ANYONE?

[aes229]

find me those clips of Lopez calling on Venevision to find chavistas and kill them. When did i say i loved Lopez doing this thing you said he did? I'm merely skeptical about your claims regarding Lopez, but i'm prepared to believe them if you show me even a little evidence. I don't think even Aporrea can furnish the proof you need here. But if you can, show me.

[ElFrankus]

I saw him, and others, like capriles, calling to find chavistas every where they could. A MANHUNT!

He didn´t said "Kill them" , but HE DID SAY TO MANHUNT THEM

I saw it that day, and seen it on documentaries and VTV.

I´m sleepy, good night.

[aes229]

i don't get it. You think they're horrible for calling on (who exactly?) to launch a manhunt (you've already backed down from "kill them"), but you're willing to give el comandante a pass for the murdered Venezuelans from the 1992 coup. Why? Why is an incitement to murder by oppositionists, as you allege, unforgivable, but actual murder by Chavez forgivable?

[aes229]

Then there's the case of Raul Baduel. This guy, who had been with Chavez since the formation of MBR, was the General who put chavez back in power after the 2002 coup. Baduel essentially rescued Chavez. Today, he lies in jail. And he was arrested in the same weeks during which Rosales was being indicted. An investigation against Petkoff is also being carried out. And there's talks about opening up an investigation against Ismael García. Osea, bichito, qué más quieres?

[ElFrankus]

You know, all those you mention, they´re saints. You see the video footage of april 11th, and they were there..praying, with a rosario in their hands. Theyre really innocent puppies. Yeah, sure. PS: Baduel was always a rightist element within MBR 200.

[aes229]

Really, here's the thing: i KNOW that you don't really care about the legality or morality of coups. In contrast to the coup you say Lopez was involved in, the coup Chavez was a part of in 1992 actually killed innocent Venezuelans. Oh, but i forgot, that wasn't a coup, was it? That was just a "military insurrection". Your laughably transparent double standards are what's pathetic.

[ElFrankus]

No, 1992 was a coup...for which Chavez took FULL responsibility IN FRONT OF NATIONAL TV. Leopoldito denies everything, he was watching tv that day. WHO´S GOT DOUBLE STANDARDS MY FRIEND? HUH?

[aes229]

So the perpetrators of the coup deserve punishment, and the people that eventually stopped the coup deserve punishment as well? How does that work? The truth is: whoever Chavez says should go to jail, goes to jail.

[ElFrankus]

Huh...your logic is flawed, you should explain your arguments better.

[aes229]

Ha! You mean he took full responsibility in front of tv AFTER being defeated and made to surrender. Yea, what else was he supposed to do? You make it seem like it took guts, like there were OTHER OPTIONS but he CHOSE to take responsibility. His responsibility for the coup, and the deaths of innocents, was ALREADY EVIDENT. He wasn't admitting anything everybody didn't already know. He was making a PR stunt.

[ElFrankus]

You mean he was NOT supposed to surrender?

PR Stunt? It was the Militaries idea to put him on TV, not his.

[aes229]

I'm saying his admission of guilt after being defeated is hardly something to brag about as an act of bravery or responsibility. That's like admitting you stole the candy bar AFTER the security guard catches you doing it and tells you to give it back. And really, you're saying the "Por ahora..." had nothing to do with propaganda and PR? common

[ElFrankus]

It was not an admission of guilt, it was a calling for the OTHER STILL FIGHTING COMANDANTES AND THEIR TROOPS TO STOP THE FIGHT AND SURRENDER! He could have refused. Did you want any more Bloodshed? He didn´t.

"Por ahora" was brilliant, really

[aes229]

Well, i'm reporting what the Court said at the time. As a matter of fact, the 2002 coup only really began after members of the military high command refused to comply with the Plan Avila order. You can interpret that any way you choose.

[aes229]

And it was Chavez' own High Military Command that rebelled against him in 2002 by refusing to comply with the murderous implications of Plan Avila, which Chavez, in his quasi-CAP fashion, ordered on that April day. Without that rebellion, that "vacio de poder", as the Supreme Court later called it, there would have been no subsequent coup. Chavez' 1992 stunt, on the other hand, was a full-blown, classically conceived and executed coup, with tanks, war planes, the works.

[ElFrankus]

Plan Avila is like, 50 years old. And is not supposed to involve civilians.

Vacio de poder? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

PULEEEEZE!!!!!!

[alfredoski]

please come to Venezuela... its all i ask

this country (my country) its poor tough the oil, because at the end this its the most corrupt goverment that we had seen

60 % of the population does not want him..

asi que por favor vengan y visiten antes de sacar conclusiones

[ElFrankus]

I´m sorry alfredoski, but Chavez has a 59% approval rating, someone like Julio Borges only has around 9% of approval or popularity. Those are facts. 59% of approvale after 10 years. Unheard of. Amazing.

[aes229]

Uribe's approval rating is higher than Chavez'. So what? Would you say that proves Uribe's government is good? You mention Moises as part of "la cuarta república" and the corrupt plutocracy that, led by CAP, ruined Venezuela. You ironically mention that trial through which the Adecos (the leading political party of La Cuarta) managed to impeach and remove CAP. But if this Venezuela from the 90's was so corrupt, how is it that the Supreme Court managed to oust the president?

[ElFrankus]

Simple: CAP was no longer useful. He was so hated that even his own party (which comprised the majority of Judges in the supreme Court) had to oust him. Either that or risk a 3rd Coup.I was there;I remember the INMENSE hatred for that man. Chavez approval rating is higher that Uribe, but anyway, Chavez has been in power for a longer time, so its even more remarkable.

[supermanpaki]

Hugo Chavez is great

Bush is just shitt

[moldydonut27]

who looks 4 this on purpose

[farewellmyth]

This guy tried to ram neo-liberalism up Venezuela's butt.

Chavez put a bullet in the head of FTAA.

People love Chavez and no longer listen to these squalid people.

[pirejknf]

"Why are there still desperately poor people in Venezuela?"

Because it takes a very long time to change an entire country.

Before you for ideological reasons discard Chavez you have to look at how inequal Venezuela was before Chavez.

[whater39]

your sooo right, I have tried to other people that.

The things i noted to others. Brick houses, instead of mud.

Hospitals & schools for the poor.

[babycomeback00]

We appretiate your work

We requare your support for the Kurds against Turkish army and government.

Thank you

[therecordkeeper]

Successful, maybe... But for whom? That's the point of nationalization. Chavez might like spectacular, colourful displays and statements, but to say that empty rhetoric is the only thing keeping him afloat is very simplistic. He has won several elections, referenda and peacefully thwarted an attempted coup, all that with the medias in his country being very hostile against him. And as Naim says, his support comes from grassroots, and you can't fake that.

[chtellez]

Moises Naim points to the secrets of Chavez's success; excellent marketing campaign; and the gullibility of socially-minded people of the first world, who should ask themselves, why are there still desperately poor people in Venezuela?