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From: Beanbandit27
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  • I wonder how many of us discovered Eric via Ayreon:D

  • @Lapt3qC3r3al3 aha i did as well

  • For another Prog-Doom christian metal band with goth influences, try VENI DOMINE out of Sweden. Feel free to check out "HEALERS FACE" by VENI DOMINE on MetalCrossTV. I think you'll like it.

    Keep ROCKING FOR THE KING!

  • Very interesting music group and yet for Christian

  • I am by no means a religious person. I grew up in Catholic family, church, school, etc. However, I absolutely love Eric and Saviour Machine. I don't have to be religious to enjoy this music and neither should anyone else...so everyone be quiet and enjoy the music no matter your faith (if any)...I was lucky enough to discover Eric through Ayreon, so thank you Arjen.

  • Comment removed

  • ke cancion tan profunda :3

    me gustaaa :3 \m/

  • Mark of the Beast is the Hexagram (Seal of Solomon, six pointed star)

    Name of a man = Solomon

    Number of its name = 666 talents of gold collected by solomon in one year

    Three pairs of triangles with their apexes touching. Each pair collectively represents the number 6, which qualifies the whole symbol as a graphical representation of 666

  • this guy looks like qun chi from mortal kombat look up on google images

  • blind religion brainwashed fools....but music is fantastic

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  • Sometimes I wonder if I am secretly a goth, of the Christian kind.

  • You cannot even use "Moron" right????You is thinking in a demon tongue or blackmetal...It's looking at the Greek Idio...

  • God is the revealer of sin! And Jaykill you sinned...Blackmetal is satan...

  • @TheLuotutin ...this isn't black metal. Black metal is a totally different style of music. And even then, playing a certain type of music doesn't make someone Satanic.

  • @TheLuotutin Actually you sinned. Jesus was God in the Flesh form, as well as the only-begotten son of God through the Holy Spirit, hey God can multi-task now! Jesus said "he who is without sin cast the first stone," therefore expressing how he feels about judging others, meaning as a believer you shouldn't judge and condemn. Music is not a sin and these guys are expressing something that isn't "Satanic," of course you should listen to the words before judging, yet you also shouldn't judge :D

  • How is God added to satan worship? Think about man,before writing your ignorance of flesh power...

  • @TheLuotutin and you should know what black metal is first...moron

  • @TheLuotutin The style of music doesn't determine who you worship. It's the lyrics, and the people performing them.

  • @TheLuotutin Black metal isn't necessarily Satanic. A band can play black metal and have Christian lyrics and beliefs. Also, Saviour Machine isn't black metal. They're gothic-symphonic metal. Learn your genres.

  • @javiramir7 Well, lucky for us you're not God!

  • this song is on my path since more than 12 years

  • Magistrale!!! excellent !!! le chanteur a une voix de fou et une presence sur scene impressionnante!!! merci d'avoir mis cette vidéo

  • psh quit the arguing just love man thats all you cant go wrong with loving people

  • Did I name names?

  • Great to see that there's some live material from Saviour Machine. Love this band, seen them live in Holland in the 90's. (I think Gouda or Zwolle)

  • Speaking as a Catholic 16 year old, i'd have to say: whatever the parents, or school or whoever say or do should not affect the person's beliefs. For a long time i renounced Christianity until i realised alot of it makes sense. All this arguing is futile. The only way to find out if any theory is right is to kill yourself. Of course, if Christianity IS right, then you'd go to hell ;) Save the arguing until you have conclusive evidence people. Until then, keep your beliefs to yourself.

  • Fantastic!!!

  • Just discovered this band, and as a Christian and goth fan, I think they're great. Remind me of bands like The Mission, Sisters of Mercy and Fields of the Nephilim. Curious how, when a lot of English bands sing in an American accent, this American band almost seem to adopt an English accent in their singing!

  • I hate god but I love this band and especially their first album..

  • praise god this is so good i actually cried

  • praise god

  • 4:00 - 4:20 ....  Genius!!!!!! ;)

  • i love this band so much i realy they hope they start tour again lol.

  • Wish I could see this band live once... :(

  • This is by far the best song ever.......this guy's voice is absolutely amazing!!!!!

  • great prog/goth

  • this band doesn't sound phony at all! what an awsome voice, sounds like he's singing with real conviction!

  • One of the best bands ever !

  • Thanks Jesus, for making people who can make great music like this.

  • This is the first decent 'christian' band i have heard in a long time.

    But, christianity and christians sicken me with their idol worship and their naive close-mindedness; And the comments here are full of biblical nut-huggers, which also sickens me

    I will make an effort to experience more of this band sometime or another. It shouldn't be too overwhelming for me since i already listen to music about fantastic fictional stories and fairy tales...

  • @noahballs Well, I am glad that you like the band. It is one of the better ones out there. I have to say, however, Christianity is definitely not about idol-worship. As a matter of fact, if you read the Bible, idol worship of any kind is strongly condemned; both be God and by Jesus as well. Idols come in many forms. Money, sex, and cars can be considered idols of our time. It is a shame that legalism and idols are so prevalent in our Christian society these days.

  • @noahballs Jesus loves you, my friend. You don't have to mold yourself into a stiff religious prude to be a Christian. When you as Jesus into your heart, The transformation into a Christian takes place from within and is a never-ending process. You don't have to change how you dress, you don't have to change cars, you don't have to talk like a boring college professor, and you certainly do not have to worship any idols or statues. You just have to be you and Jesus will do the rest. Love is all.

  • @Beanbandit27 Depends how you define 'idol'. I disbelieve deities and religions because i find them to be nothing more than widespread irrational coping mechanisms for certain this and thats and a much-too-easy answer to soothe some of the eternal wonderings of the human mind.

  • @noahballs Jesus may have been a real man who tried to spread ideas of peace and love, which is fine and dandy.. most of us would love world peace. But, i believe in your god and Jesus being a son of that god as much as i believe in Isis and Osiris, or all the gods and goddesses of Roman and Greek mythology. So many ancient religions, which held the firm beliefs of their people for a time, are nothing more than ideas in history books now. Christianity will take it's place beside them with time.

  • @noahballs Something that has endured persecution as long as this must have something worth dying for. Yes it is in books now. But not because it is dead.

  • @InuRyutheDiegron Hmm, I really like your take. It is absolutely true. No "religion" (I use that term lightly) has been persecuted, opposed and hated more than Judaism and Christianity. Satan is the prince of this world, and so even common sense should reveal that what the world opposes is likely the very thing which is truth.

  • @InuRyutheDiegron Another thing that has endured much longer than christianity has existed: greed. Greed's endurance must make it worth killing and dying for, by your reasoning. Also, people are constantly trying to eradicate disease. Does that make it something "good"? One could argue that both disease and greed have possible upsides to them, and i wouldn't say that christianity has no positives. I do believe, though, that it has been corrupted and has many shortcomings.

  • @noahballs Greed and disease have upsides? Like what? Pushing over others to get what you want? Being robbed of someone you love because of disease killing them? I think you are right on the last part. Yes Christianity can be corrupted and has been in the past many times. Christians are only human but we serve someone who is good beyond comprehension. and we try to point the way to Him. (does that make sense? Or am I not making sense?)

  • @InuRyutheDiegron i never said greed was a 'good' thing. your argument seemed to be something that endures so long must be good. as for disease, imagine how much more overpopulated the world would be if nobody died from disease ever.

    it also seems like you're saying humans are only capable of 'goodness' through the grace of god. i think thats a load of crap. you undermine human potential when you say that. and if youre only 'good' because of your belief in god then i thats kinda sad.

  • @noahballs Okay sorry I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that despite the hatred and persecution Christianity still went on. Because God still provided for his people. Yes you are right about disease. I never said people can only do good because of God. I meet many non believers who are wonderful people. But I think Christians are much more inclined to be good because of their Faith. And I never said unbelievers are bad people. I think you're putting words in my mouth.

  • @InuRyutheDiegron I disagree on that. Religion, christians as much as any other have brought much misery to the world. Just think of the crusades, the massacre they caused with the south american indians, and closer to home the troubles in northren Ireland. It should be anyones goal to respect each other and to be the best you can, but to say christians are better then the rest was the cause of all the problems i just mentioned.

  • @TheKrijgsvrouwe People are still mad at me over a comment I made monthes ago? D:

  • @noahballs How does that change lives like nothing else?

  • @Beanbandit27 "You just have to be you and Jesus will do the rest."

    =)

  • @Beanbandit27 i think society in general is pretty far from christian anymore

  • @yirmahyaw VERY far. It will only get worse. Be strong in Him. Is. 41:10

  • @Beanbandit27 Be blessed

  • @Beanbandit27 I hate to tell you, but praying to the cross and jesus on the cross is idol worship, and every church I've been in has a big ol' cross with Jesus hanging on it at the front of the church. The bible also strongly condemns wearing clothing made of more than one kind of fiber, no polyester cotton blends for you christians.

  • @BiteOutOfCrime1 And don't forget bacon. I'm supposed to be going to hell for that one too. And my grandmother once told me that I'm going to hell for not going to a church labeled "The Church of Christ". Worshiping Jesus is not idolatry by any means.

  • @Beanbandit27 You don't see it,he is an idolator!

  • @Beanbandit27 You don't see it,he is an idolator!It's like saying:Christian Blackmetal...No such thing.

  • @TheLuotutin Dude, there is absolutely no basis for that statement whatsoever. Just how do you suppose that Eric Clayton is an idolator? I personally have not seen worship anything or anyone other than Jesus Christ.

  • @TheLuotutin No such thing as Christian black metal? You've obviously never heard of Horde.

  • @noahballs I just wanna say..that not all Christians are the same. If you judge all of us based on that..well it's your opinion.

    I also wanna say that..You have the right not to even read the comments posted by Christians you do realize that? We don't have to believe every story within the bible..but in all honesty God is not a human being.He can do things way beyond human desire...call it a fairy-tale but I don't care.

    this band is amazing :)

  • @Truthofaliar2 You don't have to believe every story in the bible? Then how do you choose what to follow? So can I still call myself a christian if I decide that the ten commandments are something I don't want to follow? They came out of the old testament anyway before Jesus was around, so really that's a jewish thing.

  • @BiteOutOfCrime1 The bible is full of things that does not make sense but many stories are parables not literal stories about real human beings back in that era.

    but the real question is...why do you care who believes what?

  • @Truthofaliar2 because sadly the bible still dictates how things are done in the united states. separation of church and state is not actually happening like it should, and that sucks for some people. I don't care what people believe, but when they then try to force their beliefs on other people it kind of sucks for the rest of us. I for sure would not want my children taught creationism in a science class with no proof besides ancient writings that are not literal stories.

  • @BiteOutOfCrime1 Forcing does not exist so in reality it's just another fairy-tale.Fear is what "forcing' really is.We all have minds of our own right?so in scientific terms..it's not true.So you think that all of us kids are to stupid to think for ourselves?it shows how ignorant you adults really are..you FORCE the kids to ACT LIKE YOU and TO LEARN AND DO AS YOUR GENERATION DID.

    Now that is forcing dude..we're not you so in reality your just another hypocrite.Forcing=delusions

  • @BiteOutOfCrime1 Sad thing is..nobody ever said to the kids "BELIEVE THIS NOW"..adults are the one's waving the white flag to due their own fear and ignorance.You hate so therefor kids have no right?What if a parent hated gym class as a kid and wanted it gone for their kids?or what if some parent hated math class and didn't want their kids to learn it?

    So only scientific stuff should be allowed to be taught in school eh? Not every kid wants to be a scientist..which makes people like u angry?

  • @Truthofaliar2 That's not what he said at all; he didn't say science should be the only thing taught in school; he said science is the only thing that should be taught in SCIENCE class. Even as an agnostic, I think kids should have the opportunity to learn about religion, but it has no place in a secular institution like school which should cater to kids from all sorts of backgrounds.

    All that aside, I fuckin' love Saviour Machine. What a beautiful band. <3

  • @noahballs WOW! What a poopy head. I guess it's safe to say I WON'T be bumping into you at church. ROFL!

  • @noahballs You is actually showing self in your falsehooded judgment....Two edged sword...You fool.

  • Absolutely fell in love with this band the first time i heard them while stationed in Germany. Fantastic musical melodies and breathtaking vocals. A must for anyone who likes the melodramatic sounds of the dark side of Europe's music scene.

  • Love this Group !!!

  • all i know bout goths: once i went to a goth night wiith a good friend who is also a 'true' goth. i wore a pretty gothy tshirt (my gothiest at any rate, a gold celtic cross with a purple dragon twined round it) and blue jeans. everyone was very nice but i was told 3 times to wear black trousers next time i came. any group of nonconformists who insist on a uniform are missing something integral to my mind. peace and love to all, whatever the colour of your trousers :P

  • @MrFedaykin Amen!

  • Didnt Eric Clayton (the lead singer) die?

  • He's not dead, though his health is deteriorating due to a condition called Barrett's Esophagus, which could potentially lead to esophageal cancer.

  • Well, I think if anyone could do a good tribute to eric, it would be Jimmy Brown.

  • @xeanth No. He did have a health scare recently where he had some kind of disease in the throat. It wasn't cancer, but it could have led to it. He's still up and kicking and making music (including scoring a film with his brother Jeff). We just need Legend III:II to come out and we will be set. ;-)

  • @adambeattie He's still alive. Thats awesome! I have been trying to find out but keep drawing a blank. Can you direct me to any more news on this?

  • @Shazoolo

    Yeah, if you go to the band's official website there is a link to their fan board. Or feel free to "like" the band on facebook. Right now, if I remember correctly, Eric is working on three different projects at the same time (including a film score with his brother), so SM has kind of fallen by the wayside. Here's hoping III:II comes out sometime...

  • @adambeattie Hey, thanks for filling me in on the latest. Just glad the guy is alive, active and doing well. Would be great to see more of SM though.

  • good music!

  • why you said that???

  • well i like truth.

  • Listen to what you just said? You just told us that where not goths. Do you even know about the goth subculture??? Have you ever herd of Joy Division, Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Sex Gang Children

    And Oh Goth is about acceptance as well.

  • You are lost without GOD, and your curses don't affect me because greater is HIS blood than any pitiful little curse you could muster....lol... I will praying for your damned soul...faithfully.

    Ps. By the way,,,,.How can you call yourself a so called satanist, and yet not even believe in him? What a mockery!!!LMAO I'm surprized he hasn't thrown you out of his kingdom on your bum for that insulting comment you made about your worthless piece of garbage father!

  • @masterofpuppets2322 Why am I suddenly reminded of the song "Holier Than Thou" by Metallica?

  • I love this band, and Eric Clayton's vocals give me chills.

  • Your evil, the Lord forgive you and i return that curse upon your own head in the name of jesus!

  • Muy buena cancion! Hails from Venezuela! here we listen to this kind of bands! ^^ GB!

  • wow great song

  • Eric doesn't have cancer!!!! He has Berrets Syndrome, a pre-cancerous condition. Did ya'll order his book?!?!

  • there is no need to condemn people they are already condemned

  • I may not even be contributing to the discussion: But Catholic (which is christian) Priests wear mostly black.

  • i personally do not believe that catholic is Christian but I respect your beliefs, that is true, they do mostly wear black :)

  • Uma das melhores bandas de ghotic metal cristão!!! Essa música é perfeita.. simplesmente...

  • who says the verses are talking about literal darkness? shouldnt we be able to express ourselves without being judged about what is "right"? honestly, it doesnt matter.

  • No...this is fanatism. Are you God maybe that you can judge?

    Of course we can't be perfect, but making our best to be good thta's to be good for me.

    Sin is human...and humanity has been made by God with all its sins. The choise is the matter.

  • No matters if black or white, no matters if dark or light, if you are a good person in life.

  • i'm sorry celebrin but none are good but the Lord.

  • I'm pretty sure there's  some good man and woman too. Not many though...

  • to worldy standards yes, but not to Gods standards. noone is perfect, right? we all sin; so we are all bad. we're all sinfull. that is why we need Jesus Christ. if someone would be 100% good, he would not need Jesus Christ, but the fact is that everyone needs Him. only through Him may we recieve salvation, for only He is sinless, only He is good.

  • In regards to the idea of wearing black and still being christian ( i am not a goth by the way)

    Here are part of the lyrics to johnny Cash's Man in black and i think it is appropriate. Look up the rest of the lyrics for a better idea of theory behind being both goth and christian

    "I wear the black for those who never read,

    Or listened to the words that Jesus said,

    About the road to happiness through love and charity,

    Why, you'd think He's talking straight to you and me."

  • The stereotype of christians having to bathe in light is false.

    God created darkness, it did not enter the world with evil, so it is not evil. Goths prefer things considered dark, not necessarily demonic. Even the Angel of Death and Darkness Azreal is one of Gods servants. Satan is the Angel of Light, so darkness can even be considered holy from a certain perspective.

  • Also, I love this song, he has such a haunting voice.

  • Darkness can be considered holy?

    Isaiah 5:20

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for

    light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for

    bitter!

    Your a hypocritical fool light barer. Its not a stereotype its biblical law from the perspective of your savior. True Goths do prefer things that are Dark as true Darkness is not evil but the precepts of christianity are light and filled with evil. You are no more a Goth than I am a christian.

  • I love the way you pulled out a bible verse like that "non-christian", the bible I have says it differently

    To those who call what is evil good, who change light into darkness, and darkness into light, who say the bitter is sweet and the sweet is bitter, woe unto thee.

    In neither verses, please note, does it say darkness is evil, but darkness is used throughout the bible to mean "unknown" not the same as night darkness, remember, darkness existed before original sin, so it can't be evil.

  • John 8:12

    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:

    he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness.

    nough said bitch.

  • y would u cuss after a bible verse? i thought u tried to be pure...?

  • Why the fuck would I try to be pure?

  • @endarkenedtear

    Please note I am a strong christian and I am gothic. But you have to understand this because these are parables when Jesus was talking to them And it is 100% true we will not walk in darkness after where born again but darkness is used to describe sin. The light is used representing Jesus Christ. Im sure there are plenty of goths who claim to be a christian and are not though. :)

  • Thank you im glad you understand it. Some people don't though :)

  • The bible says to call no one a fool their are goths who are christian and I am one myself and their are plenty who are not christian. The bible also said not to judge anyone. And Biblically true Darkness is not black and gloom but it is used as a parable representing sin and evil

    Hot, cold and lukewarm are also used as parables used representing good and evil

  • man realy needs to knw this...they r christian band? cuz they dont looks like.

  • Haven't you learned, that you cannot judge on the first look ;-)

    Be asured, they are christians!

  • thanx man

  • Yeahhhhh esto es Musica y no mamadas

  • Never said my vocabulary made me Gothic. I merely pointed out without saying it the law your god made century's ago. Goth is Darkness as every true (unlike yourself) Goth knows. jebitch said that if you want to be in him then you can have nothing to do with Darkness. He vehemently spoke out against the ways Darkness calling them fruitless deeds. I am clearly not the hypocrite in my protest of fraudulent light barers such as these claiming to be Dark souls. May tumors fill and split your loins.

  • r they christian?

  • No, they're just pretending... -.-

  • Loved Eric in Ayreon's The Human Equation so I decided to try out Savior Machine. So far I love it.

  • The ever changing hypocritical foulness of christianitys stench vomits out more loathsome repugnance every conscience second. These are not Goths, they are putrescent light pestilence wrapped in Dark clothing. FRAUDS!

  • wow...what thesaurus do you use?

  • My brain but your doubt of intelligence doesn't surprise me as it is fleeting everywhere you look.

  • Your pseudo-intelligence saddens me. If you're so keen on being a free-thinking individual, then you would realize that not all, or even most, Christians are Bush-loving, Bible-thumping hicks. There are many moderate Christians out there who understand the hypocrisies of taking the Bible seriously. The Bible is a guide to living a decent life, and you trying to be a modern thinker trashing it without thinking just goes to show how close-mindedness comes from both sides.

  • I do nothing with out thinking first and that vile book trashes itself without any help from anyone. Not all christians are hicks but all believe the same self denial drivel in one fashion or another weather its being good enough or believing in cleansing from sin/nature. That book can help no one live any sort of life because it is a book of death. Death to the personality, (real free thinking), confidence, and every other aspect of genuine positivity and I'm here to assist in its demise.

  • i love this album . it was a rescue to me. i have always liked dark music , but had to turn to secular to get my fix . this is an example of just how christian music is so powerful in any form. it can reach people of the same interest. god works in mysterious ways.

  • jesus...why christians are so fanatics sometimes?

    SM is an amazing band!

    unique

    it may sing about the bible and such but is not boring or annoying at all... and is not like this fanatic morons who wants to convert the whole world or judge all who have another view...

    and that's why is so fucking amazing!

  • "fanatic morons who wants to convert the whole world"...

    Skipping the fact that you can't type well enough to call someone else a moron, lets move to the heart of what's wrong with what you said:

    A Christian, by definition, believes that Hell is a place of horrible suffering. He believes that those who don't follow Christ will end up there.

    How much would you have to hate someone to let them waltz head-first into an eternity of damnation and suffering?

  • dude show some respect.

    we believe in hell, that's why we are so desperate to convert the world: we don't want you to go to hell. howmuch would we have to not save them from hell?

  • i love his voice :)

  • The lead singer was great on his parts in Ayreon!

  • jesus people its music and its about god! leave it at that im sick of you people talking about if its right or not , its music!!!!!!!!!!!!! music comes in many forms!!!!!!!music has different lyrics!!! people have different views about things!!!!!!!!!! god its just awesome music about god who cares what those bible humping red necks think!!! yes im a christian and i just said that,im just mad and the idiots below on the comment list,

  • if your a christian ...do you realize that the way that you used Jesus name in your post is the same as blasphemy..using Christs name in that manner is using it as a common word..and takes the holyness he Deserves away...not trying to start anything with you, just thought you might like to know...peace and God Bless

  • AllExhalesAllMetal, you're a christian yet your post contains blasphemy. i don't want to seem annoying or anything i just thought you should re-read it : )

  • haha i love getting pissed. yeah to many idiots on here think their so cool and it pissed me off.

  • There is a difference between religion and faith. Do you follow rules which think bring you closer to God, or do you have a personal relationship with what you believe is true?

  • Well said! I agree! It is music and it is good! Lets just leave it like that!

  • This band is so wonderfull, I was ..lets say misguided a lot with buddism and i don't know what.

    Then I heard them I hardley couldn't breathe and then I choose again for God thank you Eric for your amazing voice and the band for the sound, Jesus rules and God almighty is so cool, we really don't serve a boring God but a loving and rocking God

  • classic music

  • In my sincere opinion. i believe that isn't matter the music genre. The tematics is most important. I was present to the churchs Adventist, Jeovah's Witnesses and Christians and i believe so this way.

  • Jesus rocks !

  • Music is good. Melody is good. Lyrics are crap. Rock is "The Devil's Music" and it is best that way. It was meant to be an escape from church and God. Leave it alone. Save the overt God stuff for church, Xmas and Easter songs. :)

  • Rock is the devil's music? Wow. That's the most retarded thing I've heard in a long time. Enjoy your simple mind.

  • Excuse me, rock has been called "The Devil's Music" by religious fanatics since the 1950s. I did not invent the term. Do your fucking homework before you go calling people retarded or simple-minded.

  • You said religious fanatics. I think what you mean when you say fanatics u think about these old ladies and priests. God has never banished rock or metal. And there is nothing in the bible as devil's music. As u said "the devils music" name came from priests that couldn't listen to anything than gospel... I think that instead of critiscising bands for their beliefs u should maybe do your homework .

  • I went to a Christian school for 12 years. I've done my homework. I'm not criticizing those bands for their beliefs. Bands can believe literally anything they want. It is just odd to hear rock music with overt Christian themes/lyrics when rock music itself was originally seen, and is still seen by some, as immoral. Rock music is at its best when it's dark, dangerous and/or dirty.

  • Music has its own harmony whatever the lyrics are saying-the magic of such moments.Its the need of any artist to express any type of feelings for any type of religious or not subject-which is the actual case and not the opposite.

  • Ok, this is getting ridiculous. All I said, is that for me personally and I''m sure for a lot of other people out there, rock music and Christianity do not go together. It just sounds odd. What the Bible says or doesn't say about it does not matter. Most Christians, especially conservative ones, find rock music immoral, of the world and therefore sinful. They would find Christian rock to be for backsliding Christians or those trying to find a gray area between godly and worldly things.

  • "It was meant to be an escape from church and God". Maybe many Christians need an escape from the conservative pharisees and atheists who try to determine what Christians should, for example, listen.

  • Just as Lary Normann (who is rocking in heaven rigth now) said: "Why should the devil have all the good music?" Well, he should not.

  • Gonna have to disagree with you there chief.

  • Tell me the reason why we are here then?

  • Why we are here then?

    peace and love... and war.

  • The question remains this - we have a higher power. Good. It's hilarious to think it has a long white beard and a penis, but I must agree there may be a higher power. Could be aliens watching us, could be some immaterial universal force, it doesn't matter. How do we know what does it have in store for us?

  • I think your question is actually two questions in one. 1. How do we know which higher power is the one we should be following? 2. How do we know that we can trust it once we've found it?

    1. The same way you find find out the truth about anything in the world. Follow the evidence. Examine and question, but don't become shut off to the possibility of an answer.

    2. I would argue that the power's track record in the lives of those who follow it would be the best indicator.

  • The way i see it, it does't matter how you see this higher power.. i think beliefs with same values represent the same god/higher power.

    And maby higher power/god shouldn't be tought as a person who can just do anything.. Maby just... power or a system.

    Also, god and devil represent the both sides/egos of human. If something makes good things happend, how could it be wrong? It's irrelevant to think wich god is real, when they might be all the same.

  • Dudes, it's not like we Christians just make this stuff up. We believe the Holy Bible is the irrefutable Word of God, and whatever it says is true; therefore God as presented Himself to us as a thinking and feeling entity Who loves the world and the children He created very much. Anything outside of the Bible is in fact simple speculation.

  • Nope, The bible is missing some pages (''the official bible'') and some things have been slightly changed.

  • Not bad.

  • Weak is turning to a "higher power" instead of having faith in yourself, it has nothing to do with jesus' teachings.

  • Why? If a higher power is anyone or anything that is more capable then yourself, then is makes perfect sense to defer to it.

  • Capable is not reliable. In most cases, you know you won't deceive yourself, while a higher power can always leave you in the middle of the desert. I hope you get the idea...

  • The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty thru God to the pulling down of strongholds. Without God, we are weak. If you're implying that God won't come thru when we need Him, I can tell you from personal experience that God has always come thru when my need was the most dire! It was when I decided that I didn't need God's wisdom and strength to fix a difficult situation and depend on my faith in myself that things became the most screwed up. Earthly strength fades, God's is eternal.

  • Autosugestion is the mightiest God.

  • how very true!

  • I do indeed. :-)

    However, I disagree with yuor first point. It is not at all hard to deceive yourself. It's a nice idea and even comforting to think that we are in total control, but it simply doesn't hold up to real life.

  • This is where the "random factor" gets in. If you want to call it "God," that's fine with me, but if you hold on to those Adam and Eve creationist fairytales...then it's not fine.

  • I'm sorry, but I'm missing how this follows from the idea that following a higher power is a weakness.

    My assertion was that because people are easily capable of deceiveing themselves and in fact do so all of the time, I don't see how it can be argued effectively that following one's own desires is a better and more rational idea than following the desires of a higher power who is in a far better position to see what is a benificial path.