What do you have to believe about creation in order to be an elder at Bethlehem?

[lueling]

Of course Jesus, his life, wonders and his sacrififical death is more important than Genesis 1. But I wonder how you can deny God's creation when the Bible clearly states that God created the world and mankind? When you doubt that, why don't you doubt the other parts?

To me, the Bible, many psalms and other verses about Creation would not make much sense if God was incapable of creating an earth...

[UrukEngineer]

He is basically saying you cannot believe in evolution or other scientific facts.

[Masaries1234]

@UrukEngineer Evolution is a theory.

[Mojosbigstick]

It's nice to hear a Christian stating what he believes about creationism, and not being wishy-washy about it. I think he's wrong, but I admire his conviction.

[Daytimeofnight]

This is sad. Piper has basically excluded from eldership anyone with a basic knowledge of anthropology, genetics, paleontology or archaeology. When will the evangelical church learn to read Genesis through the ancient eyes with which it was written?

[meinaim]

@Daytimeofnight wasn´t it Jesus in the New Testament, who is not that "ancient" who said it was 6 days? Was it John who said it was Jesus, the word of God who did it all? I think Jesus should have nown how long he took to create this place and bring up much stuff for "wise" scientists to evaluate and debate.

But the wisdom of men is foolishness before God.

Ask Jesus how long he took.

[Daytimeofnight]

@meinaim Could you please point me to the passage in which Jesus says that the world was created in 6 days?

[meinaim]

@Daytimeofnight ...not if one looks out for "I, Jesu, created everything in 6 24 hour literal days". You will not find this, but in lack of space here and if your interest is real, google this "did-jesus-say-he-created-in-s­ix-days" on the answersingenesis page.

and keep your eye especially on Jesus relating to Moses. To me this was an eye opener.

[Daytimeofnight]

@meinaim - It's not the least bit surprising to me that in making points to a Jewish audience, Jesus would draw on their common understanding of the Torah. Jesus even draws on their belief that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch, a claim which isn't taken seriously today. Jesus should not be understood as making definitive statements about these peripheral issues. He's talking to the Jewish people using terms of reference that made sense to them.

[meinaim]

@Daytimeofnight ..well this is the answer you chose to be true.

If it was true, Jesus would have different "realities" depending on who he is talking to. This is another word for "lie".

I don´t believe this. Moses still is the author of the Pentateuch for most people I know, I don´t know how you say it was different.

Mose did know how long a day was and Jesus did say it was Moses book he is refering to. If we claim it was not so, he was a liar and a sinner and then the bible is worthless.

[Daytimeofnight]

@meinaim If you have kids, I bet you talk to them in language and in terms they can understand. That doesn't mean you're lying to them. You're just trying to communicate a message in a way they'll understand. If you don't know anyone who doesn't believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch, you may be living in a Christian bubble. Consider reading some current academic literature on the subject. Also, I recommend avoiding Answers in Genesis. Their information is usually misleading (to put it mildly).

[meinaim]

@Daytimeofnight don´t know why you think you can compare talking to kids with God talking to Moses. Your evolutionary background leads you to this assumption, but I think you are wrong. There is no reason why God should have misled his people, which is nothing but a lie, there is no such thing as a "white lie". I do read current literature, but obviously not from "your" sources.

But, you are right saying that we have to see the ancient words through the eyes of those who were adressed.

[Daytimeofnight]

@meinaim The reason that one can compare God talking to humanity and parents talking to children is that both God and parents have to condescend to the level of someone with a much simpler understanding. I have no clue what this has to do with evolution. As for Moses, do you honestly hold that Moses wrote about his own death and burial?

[meinaim]

@Daytimeofnight true I would use simple words, but this is not going against literal 6 days. Moses would have had the mental capacity to understand it if there would have been plenty more.

To the death of Moses. Do you really think this is a problem? The bible says that there was no man as close to God like Moses, why shouldn´t he had a vision on his own death? Moses did see much bigger things than that. He did "see" God, in a way and unspeakable miracles.

[Daytimeofnight]

@meinaim Read Deuteronomy 34 again. Do you really think Moses wrote, "but to this day no one knows where his grave is." or "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses." Does this sound like something you write before you die? These passages CLEARLY imply that a long time has passed since Moses' death. To deny this is to deny the obvious for the sake of maintaining dogma. Moses did not write Deuteronomy and no serious scholar thinks he did.

[meinaim]

@Daytimeofnight I did read the whole Pentateuch in September and believe me this, there is much heavier stones in these books for me to carry than that Moses wrote about his own death in third person and past tense.

I surely have no problem with this, I´d even accept freely the idea of one who said, that it might have been Joshua who finalised it. But to be honest, for me it was Moses himself who did that in a vision and wrote it inspired by God right the way God wanted him to. God is great

[gbologa]

If a Christian does not believe Gen. chap 1 verse 1 the foundation for that faith is in question. My question is, at what point do they start believing the word of God???

[lordaumerle]

Define "believe".

[actionong]

As a practicing scientific investigator there is a whole lot we don't yet know about cells. In aging n cell death why telomerase don't renew. Why yet, cancer cells have so many means to be immortal.

Only r

Does your inabilty to comprehend negate the possibilities?

[IamUberStein]

Someone should ask John Piper about Noah bring 500 years old and having sex and having children. That must be a mis-translation from the hebrew to the english language. I refuse to believe he lived that long.

[HisFatherlyHand]

This comment can be interpreted in two ways, but from your channel it seems like you're a Christian, so I'll respond according to that. Have you read the part in Genesis 6 where God limits the lengths of the lives of men to 120 years as a judgment for sin? So it seems to say the reason current lifespans rarely go higher than 100 years because of that judgment.

[IamUberStein]

It's hard for me to believe Genesis.

[HisFatherlyHand]

Genesis is nothing compared to the New Testament. Jesus commands the dead to live and speaks light into the darkness of human hearts. The miracles done by Moses are just small pointers to those done by Jesus in the lives and hearts of those who follow him. Be amazed at that, and then maybe Genesis won't seem so incredible to you anymore.

[IamUberStein]

Thank you for the advice. God bless you

[LinkD3]

That's understandable. Just pray that God would grant you the faith, because understanding and knowledge is no doubt a gift he gives out of love.

Also seriously check out: Reasons(dot)org

its a freaking awesome serious academic level site that rationalized the scientific understanding of Genesis better than most do. It really helped me out a lot

[IamUberStein]

Either the book of Genesis is a fallible text, or science has been lying to everyone for the last four centuries.

And none of us will ever truly know until we each experience our own personal death. Oh, how conveniant

Even then some Christians say "when a believer dies, they "rest" until the final judgement.

Others say that believers go directly to heaven because "to be absent from the body is to be....

the sad thing is that the bible says all those things, because it's fallible.

[insaner169]

haha exactly.. you refuse to believe

[mikeisi]

I was glad to hear this; because John Piper seems to have more of an (i generally hate this term) 'open minded' point of view towards this subject. I wish John Macarthur had this approach too.

[telecast]

Are you referring to MacArthur's recent messages (Resolved/ Shepherds)?

[mikeisi]

No, specifically his "Battle for the Beginning" series and other sermons I've heard him preach on "Creation". From what I understood and heard from Macarthur he would never say "we have no stance on "young earth/old earth". Don't get me wrong, I think Macarthur's has some great qualities, I just strongly disagree with his approach to the relationship between Modern Science and Scriptural Accounts of Creation.

God bless!

-Michael (nashville, TN)

[telecast]

I also really appreciate this video by Piper. Piper usually is clear where the Bible is clear and open where the Bible leaves things open. I really appreciate that. Its easier for me to give an honest "amen" when I believe the teacher/preacher is fair with other arguments...i think D.A. Carson is the best at this.