Ravi Zacharias - The Existence of God - Jesus Revealing God

[Crucible52]

You know, every time I see or hear something something that mocks Christ and his father, is anti-Christian, attacks my faith or full of hate and bigotry towards the faithful, blaming God or 'religion' instead of looking at themselves, Ravi's message always seem so uplifting and confident building. God bless him.

[andBassandSwing]

Lennox, Keller, Zacharias... All of them bitter dissapointments. None of them have anything more than wishful thinking to go on when it comes to believing in God in the first place.

[drfoxcourt]

What a bunch of deepities. What he says sounds profound, but there is nothing there. It is his interpretation and his kind insistence that what he thinks is true that is so disappointing.

"Do you know of the one event where these 4 (evil, justice love and forgiveness) converged.... I said they converge on the cross of Jesus Christ." Come on. They converge every day in everybody's life. Cheap deepity.

[mythcontrolpill]

I understand most humans seek "justice": good people rewarded, bad people punished etc., And since this might not occur in our lifetime here, most religion says it will in the afterlife. But I just don't get the implimentation of "justice" according to Christianity. According to Christianity a mass murderer, as long as he says oh Jesus forgive me, can go to heaven. Yet someone (say someone who was murdered by this man) who is off an other religion will go to hell. It just doesn't make sense.

[MrUrosSrb]

@mythcontrolpill Well the point is that a true Christian is not a murderer,and eternal security of a believer is not a license to sin.Only Jesus died for sins,only he and no one else.God wants more than anything for all to come to the knowledge of truth.

[mythcontrolpill]

@MrUrosSrb "true Christian is not a murderer", well neither is a true Scotsman (please look that up if you don't know!!).

Please tell me your honest answer to the following scenario. Someone murders an innocent non-christian, but then "turns to christ", Question one: Can the murderer (who is now a christian) go to heaven? Question two: can the victim go to heaven?

[MrUrosSrb]

@mythcontrolpill Well,he becomes Christian later,that is the point.Then he gets redeemed by the Blood of Christ,The point of the story is that sin destroys us and those who are not Christians.I would leave it to God to decide since the scripture says that God is just and righteous and loving.A man that murdered became Christian later,and as i said Christians dont murder.The truth is that he can still be saved and we should look for Gods mercy while in this life.U should accept Christ now.

[mythcontrolpill]

@MrUrosSrb So you answered one question, that you can just pilage and plunder to your hearts content and then "repent" and you are good to go (nice little racket you got here). You still haven't answered what happens to the victim (in this case a non-christian), who lets just say was minding his or her own business just got slaughtered. I am pretty sure that sorry s.o.b is going to hell correct?

[impactproformance]

@mythcontrolpill many who say Lord Lord will not be saved, and if Stalin killed Hitler should one go to heaven? none of us are minding our own business, some peoples sins are hidden more then others, doesnt mean anyone on earth is blameless, no one is perfect... but some seek perfection... and perfection doesnt start with ripping on faith systems. Good luck :)

[mythcontrolpill]

@impactproformance This is your faith: If hitler (or stalin) truely repents and asks jesus for forgiveness, he will go to heaven. While his victims no matter how good they were cannot. (please tell me if I am wrong). And I am not suppose to rip this philosopy?

[impactproformance]

@mythcontrolpill well as a man its not for me to decide who goes to heaven and hell, that is God's job, good thing too cause only He could make such a difficult call. But i do know the bible says many are called and few are chosen, who can say for sure hitler would be saved if he made a last ditch effort to save his soul before he died, that sounds kinda selfish to me honestly. I just feel i can trust an all knowing/seeing God to see through peoples b.s. I believe justice exists and its in God

[impactproformance]

@mythcontrolpill btw what makes it ok to rip anything? isnt ripping on stuff kinda mean in its essence? what do you "faith" in that lets you justify ripping on anything? is that a moral standard, that we rip on things we dont fully understand?

[mythcontrolpill]

@impactproformance I never said you judge, I said your faith does. Even if you say only few are chosen, my point is, hitler has a better chance of getting to heaven than those he exterminated. That is your faith (again tell me if that is wrong). That is the whole point of christianity, it says that only christians (even) have the chance to get into heaven, and non-christians just can't, no matter what. That concept, that way of thinking needs....no deserves to be ripped up.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill If you once lost your mind and acted like hitler or stalin and when you came to your senses, you've already killed millions. Who is going to make up for what you've done? Is your death or good works going to make it up? Only in the Christian faith there is a God who paid the price with a death of a divine. If you ripped it up, how are you going to make up for all the wrongs or evil in the world? Without God, even evil is relative, who has the final say in what is evil?

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren 1) How the hell can someone "sacrificing" himself 2000 years ago makes things right today? what kind of nonsense is that?

2)Jesus didn't actually die, he came to life after 3 days correct? What kind of a pissant sacrifice is that?

3)So you agree that someone like hitler does have a chance to get to heaven, yet the millions he slaughtered don't, JUST becuase they were off a different religion. What kind of a justice system is this. How can you honestly support that

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill 1) What's your point of reference for right and wrong? Your question is nonsense without an absolute reference for morality.

2) Again what's your definition for death? C.S. Lewis describes it well in an illustration with the death of Aslan in the lion, the witch and the wardrobe.

3) All are sinners, equal chance is given to both hitler and to those he slaughtered. Reality is, those who are slaughtered are more likely to find God. Heaven and Hell is just incidental.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill As for the hitler part, don't be deceived by evil. What he did is definitely evil. Yet, don't forget that wanting hitler dead is also evil in the same nature. Good doesn't repay evil for evil. If all things are fair and just today, there will be no need for a judgement day. The judgement day is where all these wrongs and right will be accounted for. He who sits as the judge will be the absolute moral reference point giver. Unjust is only temporal, made right for eternity.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren 1) I am asking for the effect of this "sacrifice" on a day to day life. Take this scenario. Person X commits murder, then feels truly sorry for it. Person Y commits murder, then feels truly sorry for it and says sorry jesus. Quesion is, why is person X deserve hell, and not Y.

2) If jesus's sacrifice was legit (no matter how useless it is),he should have stayed dead and went to hell for eternity and not just for 3 days. Three days is not a sacrifice, its a sabbatical!

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill 2) If there's no Resurrection, we are all doomed. Sin dealt with death, Jesus gave his life away in obedience to God's will. The reward for this obedience is eternal life. That's why the mark of a Christian is in him being born again. 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; Christ did not come to make bad ppl good. He came to make dead ppl live. If one didn't die legitimately, he needn't be given life legitimately to live again.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill 1) On a day to day life? The "sacrifice" has the power to enable souls to be saved even today. Why Jesus? and I ask How else could one save his soul? Or have anyone tried another way and succeeded? But if one doesn't believe in God, there is no soul, the argument doesn't make any sense. But if there is a God, then the argument is valid. It's the fulfillment of your inner most being.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren 3) Someone wanting hitler dead is just as evil as hitler himself?! That is total B.S. If a judge issues death penalty for a pick pocket, as well as a serial killer, then he is a moron and not fit to be a judge. Same goes for god, if he can't distinguish between mass muder and someone who may have lied or did some petty stuff, and condemn both to hell, then this entity is incompetent. Even human laws (however flawed they may be) are still much better than this charade.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill 1) heaven and hell is incidental. Eat too much chocolate and you'll die. Drive recklessly, you'll get into an accident. If there's a destined place for perfection, imperfection is incidentally thrown out. The issue is not to distinguish between mass murder and a petty lie. It's the alienation of God. Point is, the mass murderer will pay for his big actions in a big way, the liar will pay for his small actions in a smaller way, but both have no part in perfection.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill 3) hitler wanting ppl dead in the millions -> murderous intent, wanting hitler dead -> murderous intent. They may differ in degree as in one may be more severe than the other, my point is just that they are of the same nature which is evil. As for condemning both to hell. Like buying a new car, you'd reject it if you found a dent no matter big or small. If it's possible for human to close the gap to perfection by our own means, Jesus need not have to die.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren "How else could one save his soul?" You tell me, humans have been around for atleast 100,000 years prior to jesus, christianity didn't reach everyone centuries after jesus, how did they do it, even today there are remote tribes who never heard of jesus, how are they doing it. If humans can't close this "gap" without jesus, god should have created jesus the day after humans were created, what the hell was he waiting for, maybe god thought we could do it by ourselves?!

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill Faith in God is not bound by time. It's not easy to explain in a short text but with reference to Rom 4, righteousness through faith is similar today as of 100, 000 years ago if humans really existed back then (you stated this based on archaeological findings, but i'm not limiting God as time could be fast forwarded based on Einstein's theory on the relativity of time) The time of Jesus is only the time the atonement and the revelation of God in human form took place.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill Tonnes of ppl haven't heard of Jesus, Christians all over the world are striving to reach the remote places but rmb, Christians feel that all should hear the gospel but God don't owe anyone that. If there are 5 beggars and you have 50 bucks, can I blame you for keeping your 50 bucks or giving 25 bucks each to 2 beggars only? Or 5 ppl owe you different amounts of money and you decide to cancel only 2 ppl's debt, of coz the other 3 will feel unhappy but who are they to complain?

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren "mass murderer will pay big...liar pay small etc.," That is just not true in christianity AT ALL. May be you are thinking of buddism? That is (one of) the concept of christiantiy that I am against. You tell me, how does a mass murderer pay big, if he says I am sorry jesus (lets just say he is truly being sorry). And how does a petty criminal pay small, if he is not a christian (say he is also truly sorry). Please don't say things just for argument sake.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." - Galatians 6:7 , God “will repay each person according to what they have done. Rom 6:6 , And the revelation on the concept of justification in Christ, and the one you are strongly against which is the concept of grace. As in how it's being paid I don't think it's stated in detailed but you can refer to Luke 7:41-42 in an illustration where both debtors are forgiven.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren "heaven and hell is incidental" Here is an other total B.S. According to your religion heaven and hell are suppose to be eternal. They are the only reason you are put on earth for, one to achieve and one to avoid, afterall what is 70 or 80 years compared to infinity.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren Let's sum up our discussion with this scenario. Og lives in a place where the christians haven't reached yet. He lived a normal life (according to whatever taught to him by his parents/society). This morning he died at the age of 52, without hearing about jesus. Tell me what is happening to him as we speak (according to your religion), how he is judged, heaven, hell etc., This will let us know how just this god of yours truly is AND/OR how useful this jesus fellow is.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill In this scenario, I take the doctrine from Rom 2:14-16. It will be a timeless wait till judgement day. How is he judged? Without having heard of Jesus, he will be judged based on his own conscience where if you realize, there is implicitly the sense of good and evil inside every human being. His conscience will speak for him if he has done good and also accuse him the times he betrayed it. So if by faith he obeyed his conscience, then by that same faith he will be justified.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren Thank you for the honest answer. Yes, if there is a god then that is how we should be judged. Let me be damned for what I DO. On the same token, let me be saved for what I DO as well and not because I sacrifice a goat, or take a dip in a sacred river, or do a 360 around a black rock or worship a poor magician who was tourtured &crucified. These foolish rituals can't change who you are or what you have done. If Og didn't need anything but his own conscience, why do we?

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill In the example, Og had his conscience as a guide. What he needs is not only the guide but something above himself which enables him to choose and live out the good. And if he couldn't, he needs a savior. If indeed in ourselves we are able to choose and live out the good then there is no need for Christ. For the account of Jesus before his death, He prayed if that is possible He wouldn't want to die. (Matt 26:39) He went to the cross coz there's the need. (Matt 1:21, John 3:16)

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren Lets not step backward. What we are establishing here is whether a person needs an EXTERNAL "factor" in order to be "saved" (here the "factor" is jesus). The Og example shows that ones own conscience HAS to be enough. After all if an external "factor" is needed and yet not provided, then the fault lies with the provider(god), so the system is unjust. But if this external "factor" is not needed(in the case of Og), then this "factor" is not at all vital. Its just logic.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill I think the root for this argument is the reason for human existence. If indeed God created, the reason is outside of ourselves, if by chance then we determine reason for ourselves. Jesus is the crossroad between relationship with God and being independent from God. If indeed God created, eternity apart from God is nonsensical. In the case of Og, if indeed he lived the good in his life, God will intervene for him for blessed are those who are pure in heart, they will see God.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren The existence of a "god(s)" entity is another discussion. Here we are talking about a particular aspect of a particular religion. I have made it abundantly clear the trivial nature of jesus's sacrifice. Afterall, people were doing fine before and even after him. Think of this scenario, lets say there was no jesus 2000 years ago, tell me what will be different? Won't we be just like Og, judged for who we are and what we have done. Where is the need for a jesus here?

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill Well if you judge men having the ability to perfectly do what is good even by our own standards, ya then Jesus' sacrifice is trivial. But I come to realize, and scriptures also describes that men have all fallen short of a perfect standard. Then Jesus' sacrifice is absolutely essential. If there's no Jesus 2000 years ago, God forgiveness for ppl before and after isn't justified. I think the explanation isn't sufficient and there's limited space to write. get a book or something

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren Books are great, but we still have to use our own critical thinking. Reason and logic should be used above all else. If man was created without the ability to achive salvation without an external component, and yet this key component was not provided to everyone by the creator, then what is the point of creation. That is one of the greatest logical fallacies of christianity (and most other religions). Realise that and you will know how trivial these religions truly are.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill Things change when you realize men are created with salvation in paradise in the first place with the ability to fall instead of being created lacking the ability to achieve salvation. And if only you have witnessed God once, your reason and logic for your worldview will automatically turn upside down. For then you'll realize the logic behind you not understanding God's reasoning rather than imposing upon God your reasoning as correct.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill Jesus appeared and witnessed by many, claimed objectively to be God, backed His claims with the supernatural. If you find yourself debating with the apostle Peter, you'll find he writes, We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Pet 1:16 The scientific method probably could only create inferences but when claims like these are made, u better check it's authenticity.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren I am not questining the existince of jesus, but rather the availability of him. We are assuming for the discussion that there is a god/jesus. I am asking why was this jesus not know to everyone (before and after his birth, even today). christianity is claiming that something so vital for our existense (in the afterlife atleast) and yet this is kept from many (the Og example). In another words, why are we (you and I) so lucky to know about this dude, yet many don't.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill This issue was indeed addressed by the apostle Paul indicating that saving grace as being undeserved in the first place and though it's sufficient for all is not given to all. This is for us to see clearly that there is a difference between the two and it's not something to be taken for granted.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren "it's sufficient for all is not given to all" You don't see that as a problem? Why do you and I have the free will to choose or reject jesus, yet many aren't given that choice. They are/were just destined for damnation. Not only is this a classic definition of injustice, it infringes on their free will, which is very important, without it are we not just puppets (at least those that haven't recieved this "saving grace") Why were they even created in the first place?

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill The classic argument which even Paul in the bible don't have an answer to. In addressing this argument in Romans 9, he contends that God is not unjust by doing so and it's God's prerogative to do so. In this matter, we by faith trust God in knowing best. As for why, we may have to wait until God explains it to us when we meet Him. With reference to Jesus displaying the character of God, we trust that God knows what's right to do.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren If the answer to one of the most, if not the most important question of your faith is "only god knows", then why is it any different than someone saying, only shiva knows or only allah knows or only zeus knows?

If we, lowly mortals can find a clear logical fallacy, that means either your god is inferior to us or this premise (relgion) is wrong and therefore this entity "god" doesn't exist (at least not the way your religion says it does).

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill This logic assumes that God owes the explanation when God also has the free will to choose. let's say Einstein knows how to make an atomic bomb, and someone comes and tell him it's essential that he teaches him too. Einstein reserve the right to not tell him. I know any stranger could get away with that answer too but that doesn't make the stranger equal to einstein. but i'm positive that there is an answer, just that i think i'm not yet knowledgeable enough to answer it.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren Einstein comparison doesn't work on 2 levels. 1 He is not withholding information vital to the other person's survival (now remember, you are the one claiming jesus is so vital), that is why he doesn't need to tell him. 2 The stranger you mentioned is only a stranger to you, for others Einstein might be the stranger. Try to think from another POV. BTW NONE of your comparisons or metaphors will work in your favor, because your religion is fundamentally flawed.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill you'll be surprised how many counter arguments there are for this. One is behind the reason why people should marry only one wife. Though 10 girls may wanna die if you didn't choose them. Your POV is coming from the logic of having the wife understanding you marrying 10 other wives because they'll kill themselves if you didn't. Now is the wife's exclusive thinking fundamentally flawed or is it the inclusive idea of marrying many wives fundamentally flawed?

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren I am sure there are many "counter arguments", they are just wrong. Like this one, the key difference is, the girls are CHOOSING to kill themselves if you don't marry them, they have the choice of going ahead and marrying another person. The people who don't know jesus (because god is witholding that info) don't have any choice, they are just condemned to death. See the difference. Next.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill Well if you don't agree with the idea of exclusivity being better than uniformity then another explanation would be the choice being at judgement day. For I think God forgives those who know not what they do. (Luke 23:34) Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. Therefore, in the example of Og, he might still be given the choice come judgement day.

[mythcontrolpill]

@Tsuruga0Ren I like "exclusivity", but it should be based on merit, not random chance. Not based on when and where you are born, but on what you do. If Og can be saved, then that means he just cut out the middle man (jesus), and made a liar out of him (john 14:6), and it also means it negates the whole charade of jesus. And of course if he is not saved, then god is unjust. This is why NONE of your comparisons will work for you. Again, its a logical falicy inherent to your religion.

[Tsuruga0Ren]

@mythcontrolpill you'll find in surprising how many believers today who have experienced Jesus first hand without having reached by any Christians. tens of thousands testimonies of those of remote tribes and prohibited areas who when reached by Christians have already been reached by Christ Himself. When Og meets Jesus in the end, He may be given John 14:6 and i think it's fair to give Og the chance then. For those who have heard it earlier, what excuse do they have? Just plain disbelief.

[jonniec7]

rips atheism a new one...................

[greenhornet123]

This man is smarter than most of the commenters below trust me

[BigIdeaSeeker]

How does the atheist 'stuff' look shallow by comparison? I left the faith and became an atheist only to find a wealth of meaning at last. Oh. He must mean the Christian misconception of atheist 'stuff.'

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker And what is this "wealth of meaning" that you found?

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 Well, instead of trite answers, I have an abundance of questions once again. The universe has opened up to me and its mystery is once again profound. There is joy in the pursuit of understanding and "Godidit" gradually became more and more of a show stopper for me. As an individual among humanity, I now must question, "What is the best for our world/society/species?" Questions of morality are exceedingly relevant and deserve full query rather than a Bible reference...

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 #2 In the context of history, Jehovah and his laws, cruelty, and whims makes perfect sense. Rather than standing out brilliantly as a creator of the universe should, he's actually just another god who demands things like stoning your children who backtalk, burning your unwed daughter who comes home pregnant, beating your slave all you want so long as he lives at least 24 hours after the beating, giving the virgin girls of a society to priests soldiers post genocide...

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker Hey man, I appreciate your taking time to share your thoughts. You seem like a sensible person who's trying to make sense of all of these things compared to the typical atheists I come upon who are just plain arrogant. And I would also agree with what you say that it can be difficult to talk to some Christians on this topic. If indeed you really are seeking the truth allow me to explain some of the misconceptions you have regarding the Christian faith based on what you said.

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 There are in fact many sensible atheists out there and, indeed, many disrespectful christians and vice versa. I recommend the podcast 'A Christian and an Atheist' and its accompanying forum where many theists and non-theists come together for polite discussion. Another is Apologia Podcast. Both of these have christians and atheists on together discussing topics. I prefer this to talks like Ravi's here (and some atheists' as well) where the other side is easily misrepresented.

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker You said that "Questions of morality are exceedingly relevant" -though I'm sure you've already heard of this before but I'll still ask again, what is your basis for morality? To recognize what is moral means you recognize the existence of a moral law, so where does that come from?

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 #2 I did go to Moody Bible Institute and was a christian for 25 years, so while I don't know everything, much of what you assume is misconception is little more than a difference of opinion. I have not merely glanced at verses (judging a novel cover analogy is really only as deep as the dust on the cover). I understand biblical history, dispensationalism, divine command theory, and so on. After 25 years as a believer I allowed myself to study these issues through Bible reading...

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker #3 From the Christian worldview, we get our morality from the Christian God through the Bible. Now you say "Rather than standing out brilliantly as a creator of the universe should, he's actually just another god who demands things like stoning your children who backtalk.." Merely glancing at the verses would tell you that indeed it sounds cruel. But let me ask you..

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 #3 ...apologetics. I studied prophecy, something I used to use to defend the faith, and realized that so much of it is conflation and misconstrued by christians (even the author of Matthew didn't understand the prophecies he quoted [and made up on occasion]). All this led me to the point where it was very clear to me that Jehovah/Jesus don't exist. It's really pure madness in my opinion now, and it's frustrating that christians- generally- are, um, hesitant to discuss this stuff.

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 #3 In other words, as an atheist (BTW, nonbelief in a *revealed theistic god* but still agnostic toward possibility of a deistic god), I don't have to stop with the easy answer that beauty and evil, life in a microscope and wonders in a telescope- the wonders of existence just *snap* came from God. It's truly mysterious and wonderful because it's not fully understood. My life, as far as I know, is the only one I have. Thus, every moment, person, taste, blink matters. Deeply.

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 #4 In my former-Moody-Bible-Institute-m­inistry-headed-apostate mind Ravi and William Lane Craig, Josh M., and other apologists (and therefore the many pastors who get their information from them) truly spread complete misinformation about atheism and about the proof for God. We're really all just truth seekers- the christians and we atheists. We all have meaning, just different sources.

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker #4 Would you judge how good a novel is if you just opened it at any point and read something bad without reading the whole thing? Many atheists make this mistake. They don't even ask why there seems to be a contradiction, one part of the Bible says that God teaches us not to kill but to love thy neighbor and here's another part saying that God APPEARS to approve of genocide. Instead of trying to make sense of this apparent contradiction, they just conclude that God is evil.

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 God does not appear to approve of genocide- he orders it. Yes, you could say he had to keep Israel pure, cleanse the land and so on. But do you realize that scholars like W.L. Craig and Paul Copan (author of 'Is God a Moral Monster?') disagree on the nature of all this even while recommending one another's books. To simplify Craig thinks God does the slain infants a favor cause they go to heaven while Copan suggests that the atrocities didn't happen as the accounts are hyperbole.

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker #5 And this is what will separate you from the other atheists, if indeed you seek the truth then take time to read and UNDERSTAND the whole plot of the Bible. It'll take time and diligence (and many don't like that), but don't make the mistake of making conclusions based on "piece-wise" information. There are some Bible reading guides that should help you (like where to start, a comparison of the original hebrew/greek texts with the corresponding English translation etc).

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 I don't conclude that god is evil (except as a fictional character), but rather that the biblical god doesn't exist. It's clear that such behavior- which was consistent with that time- is not the way whatever-god-exists would behave (toward which god I am agnostic and not seeking). Thus, the way god is depicted and evolves throughout the Bible is close to what one would expect of such a deity, with a few surprises. I further concur with much of the scholarship on the henotheistic

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker #6 One the other hand, I'm also a man of science (I'm a physicist) but I find a lot of beauty in seeing that "Goddidit" The mystery is not in "not fully understanding the universe" but for me, the mystery is in wondering how someone like God can make all this beauty and wonder fit together so perfectly! From the biggest galaxy down to the smallest atom, what kind of mind can conceive something like this and yet still be very personal and say that His best creation was man!

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 ...henotheistic nature of the early Israelites and the conflation of various beliefs and behaviors of the cultures in their area. I hope you will understand that I've used original language studies, guides and commentaries and utilized my background as an educator in Classics and have not approached my dismissal of god 'piece-wise.' Your scientific sense of awe in god/nature- I recall a similar attitude of worship, but conclude that we now simply disagree on wonder's tru nature.

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 Finally (sorry for the order mess- new to this), on morality- to say morality is based in God does not work for me. What morals that are obvious (not laws to me) to all/most cultures are quite clear based on how they effect others (empathy) and how they promote or hinder flourishing (socially based). OT God and Jesus to an extent, are far too capricious and inconsistent for any claim to moral basis. Not to do this to you again, but check out QualiaSoup's 2 latest vids on morality

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 #5 Oh, I forgot, this youtube video is relevant: /user/QualiaSoup?blend=1&ob=5#­p/a/u/2/DU6bc_Gsp7s And by the way, in the past year of being an atheist I've found it very difficult to converse with christians in real life. They simply don't want to talk about it. However, I recently joined my local Reasonable Faith chapter and hope to dialogue there. My primary focus at this point is on promoting dialog and understanding between christians and atheists. Cheers!

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker I would not be surprised that you find it difficult to converse with Christians IRL. I also find it difficult to converse with atheists. It's not an easy topic and I hope your joining your Local Reasonable Faith chapter helps make it easier for dialogue and I hope that you find the answers you are seeking over there. Cheers!

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker and oh, I watched and listened to the ytube link, and apart from the sarcastic word play I do see that holes in the logic, most of which are based on the unbiblical understanding of the Christian God. Yes he quotes scripture, but only those which accommodate his arguments, so again my appeal is to really READ and UNDERSTAND the Bible. And even IF he is correct, so far he has only disproved "philosophically" the nonexistence of a Christian God, but not the nonexistence of a god. (:

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@geforcemmx2000 One last point, regarding, "what will separate you from the other atheists"- That is far too general for my taste. There are atheists who have not studied or thought issues through just as there are christians like that, but then there are learned atheists who have sincerely studied. There are plenty of these, especially proportionately. Try a local skeptics chapter. As per the video, I gave you the wrong link. I meant to send u2 "Why Live?" on meaning & purpose for atheists. sry

[Hufflewaffle]

'cosmic dramas' are played out all over the world every single day. Love, forgiveness, sacrifice, atonement, grief, suffering, joy, compassion. It makes no sense whatsoever to say they happened 'only once' over 2000 years ago. They are going on right under your nose.

[deltaalphacharlie]

@Hufflewaffle he means they are brought together at one point. not different pieces across the world. all of these emotions and experiences converge on this one point in history.

[geforcemmx2000]

@Hufflewaffle you forgot justice. Where was justice met? Concerning what Ravi said about them converging at one point in time and disregarding what happened on the cross, do you know of any cosmic drama as such taking place?

[OyonTheAdept]

Humanity is finally moving....

[georgealeria]

Where can i find the FULL length video?

[Ozzyman200]

Ravi is full of claims, but never gives any evidence or reasoning to back them up.

[deltaalphacharlie]

@Ozzyman200 i dont understand. it sounds pretty straight forward to me.

[BigIdeaSeeker]

@deltaalphacharlie It may sound pretty straightforward to you because you hold to the same presuppositions (I'm assuming here). Ravi and other apologists typically are speaking to audiences that already accept their basic premises. Thus, the Christian listeners don't even notice that many unsupported/-able arguments are put forth as reason. That's why I like discussions where both christians and atheists are represented- see Apologia and Achristianandanatheist podcasts for fair discussions.

[deltaalphacharlie]

@BigIdeaSeeker i understand where you are coming from. but also know i'm spaking as a person without presuppositions. Its straightforward to me because i understand his basics, so this makes sense to me. I had to go out and find out if this christ was true. i've made my conclusions.

[geforcemmx2000]

@BigIdeaSeeker Sorry for my long posts. I'm not here to impose my faith on you, I just want to clarify what true Christians believe in, and I leave it to you to make your conclusions. And I hope I didn't appear arrogant or "violent" in my posts. Those words were said in a sincere and loving manner so please don't get me wrong. Peace and much respect from a fellow truth-seeker! (:

[Ozzyman200]

@deltaalphacharlie

He's just all claims. If he were right, he could have presented some reasoning or evidence.

[Fluffie14]

I don't have enough faith to be an atheist

[deltaalphacharlie]

@Fluffie14 lol thats very funny.

[LuigiPeach]

I like it how totally humble he is and doesn't turn his entire speech into a story about how awesome, wise and humble he is.

[jhweh2007]

praise the LORD.

[megaralee]

The second point is that if God is perfect,then he is not in need to be worshipped....God is actually a universal perception for all the creatures in our universe,it can not be defined.in other words,God reflects our existence.

[megaralee]

all religions are man-made,the human being has always been looking for a supernatural power where he can find peace in,and head for in hard times.

another proof that support what i said: Why miracles and new HOLY religions are not emerging in this developped and Godless society......ask yourselves this question;

[scottpastry]

dear oh dear ravi....

validating the reality of jesus with the bible.

i thought u were smarter than that.

[polopowers1]

The Nature of God cannot be satisfied but by the Nature of God Himself in Virtue in order for perfect Justice to be done and righteousness imputed.Equal Virtue met equal Virtue.

[TorBarstad]

He's not that smart.

[jazer120605]

go,go,go,dr ravi zacharias,he is a  christian evangelical faith defender.shalom..

[therexCo]

A brilliant man.

[hawklanzs]

Yeah I believe that God the father and he's Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus even said noone shall come to the father but by me. So If u REJECT Jesus you don't go to the father who is in Heaven. Islam rejected Jesus as the Son of God and has a problem with he's 'godhead' concept.

[GoodBinGood]

nope u r 100% wrong. Islam believes 100% in Jesus. When Jesus says I myself can do nothing.. we believe, When Jesus never claim he is God.. we just believe he isn't what he never claimed to be. If the God ask me why dont u believe Jesus is God.. I'll say he never claims he is God. When God ask why i didnt follow the Christians.. I'll say Jesus is not Christian and he never utter the word Christian in his life. If God ask why i follow Muhammad? I"ll say he said GOOD things about Jesus..

[happerz]

@GoodBinGood Jesus said that he could do nothing apart from the Father. He was limited to the Fathers will, which he marvelously enacted because He is part of the God-head. That's why, before He was executed, He said, "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.  No one comes to the Father except through me." Our Heavenly Fathers image is on us. The Holy Spirit, The Creator, And Christ (flesh). Our spirit, our mind, and our body (flesh). The image of God is directly imprinted on humanity.

[newtubevision]

The mystery of the trinity.........The -Father- is a -spirit- He became The -Son- these three are the same, Me and my Father are one o Israel the Lord our God is one God, before Abraham was I Am God is a spirit those who worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth

[hairlessx11]

i don't think there is a mystery - it's called blind faith.

listen to your words, it's a baffling, babbling, sad reflection on mankind. stop thinking you are going to be saved. leave this behind where it belongs.

[newtubevision]

hold on this is what i said, and I'm a say it again The Father is a spirit He became a son, (Father Son Spirit) what's so baffling about that and even though I'm born of mankind by flesh scripture say's have the mind of Christ and who is Christ ? God in flesh, its really not that hard to understand. We are made in his image He even use creature to describe himself Lamb lion etc. But your probably ignorant to this conversation peace catch you on a rebound

[happerz]

@hairlessx11 Faith doesn't have to be blind. Just like before you go to sit down in a chair... when you turn around to sit down, you cannot see the chair you are about to sit in, yet you have faith that it's there because you saw it before you turned around. Glimpses of heaven, miracles, and the Word of God give us hope for a purpose, moral-framework, and prosperous society that atheism is counterintuitive too.

[hairlessx11]

@happerz "...yet you have faith that it's there because you saw it before you turned around" so you get to see some invisible sky-daddy do you? stop wasting your life

[happerz]

@hairlessx11 Quite contrary to wasting my life, I am fulfilling this life that I have been given. Although that may not be true if you think that a fulfilled life is a life enacted without perimeters or limitations, in which case you have deceived yourself and become a slave to the fulfillment you speak of, which I would assume is the only reason you are having a hard time stepping beyond your ego and acknowledging a creator of everything.

[viper2808]

According to the Bible, the Father did NOT become the son. The Word, became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word 2nd member of the Triune God became flesh. The father remained in heaven. Jesus explains this in scripture. Refering to "The Father" as being in heaven. During Jesus's baptism, the father said "This is my Son which whom I am well pleased." The Holy Spirit appeared as a Dove also. How Amazing.

[newtubevision]

John 14:8-10. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and we are satisfied. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how do you say then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

Father means source the one who sustains all life

[viper2808]

Isn't it wonderful to know how awsome of a God we have? Amen, brother.

[viper2808]

Amen Brother, Amen! Our God is an awsome God.

[antocjo]

I'm a bit confused about most atheist's position on believer's goodness.

For example, a very good friend of mine that is atheist, often tell me that I would be as moral and good even if I would not believe in Jesus. but than again, there are those who prejudge that all my goodness is out of fear of hell... brrrr

So, what exactly is your position on this matter, ChristianIce?

[ChristianIce]

I bet you are confused, you imply that an "athesit position" exists :)

What is the position of "blonde guys" about morallity?

Atheism is not a religion or a clan, we did not set rules to follow on a book, so it happens that we disagree on many things.

That said, "goodness is out of fear of hell" is a logic deduction from the bible, god uses this threat very often.

Referring it PERSONALLY to you is a mistake, you can be good without the threat of course, but the threat is still there.

[illumin8SS]

@ChristianIce 3 millenia from what?

[kwil46]

Once again ZackSFC shows his true nature.The only intelligent thing you said was,and I quote,"Didnt make any claims to intelligence". That is hard to do when you possess but a modicum of it. When pressed for facts or confronted with a person of faith who can reason you resort to vulgarity and childish name calling.If morality derives from animal instincts,why then do animals not possess at least the level of morality we have?Instinctual and moral behavior are different.Hope you can find truth.

[doubleonions]

"why they all come to your conference/sermon" ?

Millions wouldn't bother - because they realise there is no god. you can be good in the 80 or so years on earth without believing in fairy tales.

you'll delete this of course - and if you do, ask yourself why.

[KennyKenMasters]

you assume you can be "good"?, what is this good and where does it come from? If there is a good, then your saying there is an evil. what is your point of referenfce when you consider what is "good" or "bad".

[ZackSFC]

What the hell kind of reasoning is that? Humans cooked up God. Not the other way around. We've figured out how to follow radio waves backwards through time in space. We've put a man on the moon. We went from no airplanes to the moon in 50 years. How fucking hard do you think good and bad is you nitwit? You religious nuts make comments like you have nothing to explain. Your evidence is ZERO. Z. E. R. O.

[KennyKenMasters]

you cursed and called me a nitwit, but you failed to answer my question. what is good my friend? explain it to me. What makes it good?

[kwil46]

If its so easy,then answer! Where does an individuals definition or belief in "good" derive? Is it from within, and thus subjective to each individual? Or, is it from without and applicable to us all? Try less vulgarity and more thinking and explain your answer since you seem to think you are so intelligent.

[antocjo]

Why? :)

So you say: "you can be good in the 80 or so years on earth without believing in fairy tales."

I bat you consider yourself a "good guy". ;) But then I do not understand why there are so many church-burning videos in your favorites? Ask yourself why ;)

And why do atheists mostly want to glory in their own goodness and that they are as good as (or even better) than believers?

[antocjo]

previous post was an answer to doubleonions...

As for me, I do not compare myself to any other human being, and I do not consider myself better that somebody else.

I've been set free of that :)

ps: sorry for late reply

[doubleonions]

Apart from church-burning I'm a good guy.....I like cute kittens too so it's balanced out....

Atheists aren't a 'type' of people - they just share one thing in common - non-belief in 'god' or a supernatural being. There are good and bad atheists - just like there are good and bad 'religious' people.

Where does it say that I consider myself better than believers? You're speaking nonsense.

[xchargerOUx]

"A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions." -Proverbs 18:2

That pretty much describes Atheists and Double funions

[TheLuckySaGe]

xchargerOUx If you look at that same Proverb through a different lens you can find that it also can be about those who are religious. Furthermore I would point out that it better describes the religious because atheists have science and fact to back them up.

[xchargerOUx]

TheLuckySaGe - No. There ain't no other lense that can been seen the other way. Atheists are fools and a stain on society of science, and their lost causes are backed up because of science? No. Fact is that they will burn in hell, and everything else about them..

[TheLuckySaGe]

xchargerOUx Let me say this to you: You are a fool who finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions. You assert your opinions without evidence, where atheists use rational thought to explain their viewpoints. They go about trying to live life with as little assumptions as possible. Those who are religious assume extraordinary things and yet can not back any of it up if they were to truly think rationally. You are probably too stupid to understand what I'm saying

[xchargerOUx]

TheDumbSaGe You became stupid when you decided too actually live that life you fucking dipshit..XD So, what's your point? Being an atheist makes you smart when it comes to trying to explain yourself... Please, try finding better ways to discover yourself and do us all a favor and jump of a bridge..XD

[luckymagic713]

ITS FUNNY you say your athiest and you dont Believe yet you ATHIEST waste your time in trying to prove us wrong all the time. You all hate it when the truth is told in your face. your ignorant. think about it if you dont like it why waste your time. No one is forcing you to do anything. oh and ha the Bible told us of you and those who would go against us. so in turn your just prooving US right. now you discover YOURSElF and EDUCATE yourself before you talk or represent something that YOU belive

[xchargerOUx]

I'm not an atheist...Period.

[GoodBinGood]

Ravi is the Devil's salesman.. U follow him.. u'll going away from the actual Jesus teachings. Jesus never says read the bible..if i dont read it it's not my fault. Jesus never claims he is God. if i dont believe he is God and it's not my fault. Jesus never says be a Christian if i dont it's not my fault.. I am Jesus follower and I am not Christian do u have problem with that? I played save better than the Christians... Ravi Sucha real Ass is a Super salesman.. u follow him u became ass too..

[happerz]

@GoodBinGood Jesus does claim to be God. Read the Gospels NIV Translation and you will find that he was indeed God in the flesh. He doesn't say directly, "read your Bible or go to hell", but he was a rabbi and was educated in such things, just like we should be. He also said, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word of God". Saying "Jesus Follower" instead of "Christian" is just semantics. Categories people fit into to better identify one another quicker.

[MrUrosSrb]

@doubleonions THe very fact that you are here means that God is still witnessing to you.Its not to late to Believe in JEsus and be saved.

[hhhtwins]

Great video. A real eye opening!

He makes everything so simple and clear!

Cheers and God Bless

[Jestepher]

Ravi is a master Theologian and speaker. His public speaking skills and power of words are striking. Arguably one of the mightiest voices for sincere Christianity ever, in my opinion.

[kigawman]

This Post really gave me insight on what the Character of God. When Ravi is explaining about the 4 absolutes, it really explains on what God's ultimate Passion was. Why was evil shown? Because God is Perfect Righteousness. Why was Justice demonstrated? Because God is Perfect Justice. Why was Love Given? Because God is Perfect Love? Why was forgiveness needed? Because God is Just and Forgiving.

A Broken and a Contrite Heart God will not despise (Psalm 51:17)

[Goddoesexist]

if one's ethic is based on aiming for the strongest to survive over the weak, if that is true, then men are just chance bags of amino acids, water & minerals. If no God, u can't disclaim stalin or Pol Pot. They were killing the weak, the least strong protein sacks & doing man a favor: if survival of the fittest rules as it does in Darwinism.

4 theism truth makes right - fixed moral laws is required for true communication & God is necessary for Moral Law, there is true communication, God exists

[memama2]

This wonderful explanation of Jesus and who He was and what He did for all of us, is the reason for why we believe, and who we believe in.