Rather than argue when the Tribulation occurs or when the Rapture occurs, we can all agree that following Christ is the important issue. We need to spend each day as if it were our last one on earth and follow what our Lord taught us.
1. There are only TWO resurrections in Rev 20. FIRST is for life. SECOND is for judgment. If there were a Secret rapture Before or In the trib, the ORDER in 1Thess is: "FIRST the dead in Christ THEN we who are still alive". So in Rev 20, those would be the SECOND and the THIRD resurrections!!! NO! The FIRST resurrections is Rev 19-20. At rapture there are also BIRDS eating the dead corps. You can read Luk 17:37 and Rev 19:17-18 for it. Rapture is immed. before Armaggedon.
THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST!! Then we who remain will be given gloriedfied bodies! Are you talking about the Book of Life?.....we will be judged from the book of life!!! Rev. 20 is another account of 1Thess!!
I believe the Tribulation begins when the Anti-Christ makes a seven year treaty with Israel and we know the Temple must be rebuilt because the Anti-Christ stops sacrifice in it during the Tribulation. Also the Evil One will also stand in the Temple declaring he is God, so there must be a Temple for him to do this. What is most important however, is that we live each day for Christ, no matter when we think the Rapture will happen.
not appointed to wrath. That is so true. I have a question though. Does it mean that one is appointed to wrath if they are in the tribulation? If so, what about those who become believers during the trib and live to reign with Jesus in the millenium? Are they subject to wrath as they were on earth during trib?
@DanielGlock26 Post-trib. Christ said(John14:3) I will come again. He never said I will come again twice. Also 1st Thessaloninas 4:15 says unto the coming of the Lord. A singular event(these are pre-trib mainstay verses 4:15-17) Now for the Big one Matthew 24:30 and they shall see the Son of man coming. Lookk back at verse 29 and see when that happens.
@NickelsBuckingBulls Amen to that, I was referring to your comment at mrrangerman, I just think we should be as nice as possible don't want to let the discussion turn into anger, or push anyone away
@NickelsBuckingBulls hey man let's make sure were not attacking anyone, we all just have questions about certain things, i make sure I'm not attacking anyone's interpretation ;)
@DanielGlock26 To live is Christ to die is gain is in the Bible Paul talks about how much better it would be to be with Christ. I am not attacking anyone just quoting Bible scriptures.
@mrrangerman ive been confused with this lately, It seems like there is more scripture pointing to the post tribulation or right before Christ comes back to destroy the enemies, but I don't think alot of us will be alive
PART 2 The "man of sin"(antichrist) 2The2:3 can not be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed vs.7 We the children of God have the Holy Spirit living inside us, if the Holy Spirit is removed and the Christian left behind that would go against scripture, and make Jesus a liar as Jesus said "he would never leave us" Heb 13:5 and Matt 28:20 In Rev ch.1-3 Jesus talks to the church thats on earth, then in ch4 vs1 the rapture takes place "come up hither" and the church is not mentioned after that.
@mrrangerman Revelation 4:1 is not the so called "rapture" Where do you get this garbage? You thinking 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 is your pre-tribulation so called "rapture" also. If they where both your "rapture" you would go right past Christ as you ascended to heaven because he is descending from heaven. Your are confused!
PART 1 You need to study a little bit more, "the day of the Lord" is NOT the rapture, in 1Thes4:14-18 Paul is talking about the rapture, he is giving events in order "caught up together"(rapture). then Cpt 5 is talking about the tribulation(day of the Lord). He again does the same thing in 2Thes2 Verse 1 is the rapture "our gathering together unto him". Then in vs. 2 "the day of Christ" here again this is the tribulation.
If use Matt 24 1-31 to support your theory of post trib, you are misunderstanding those scriptures which are referring to Israel itself. Verses 32 on are in reference to the disciples and and believers. Rightly dived the word of God.
@ksvillani We know when the day of the Lord/tribulation starts at the day when the Antichrist signs or confirms a covenant with Israel for a period of 7 years. From that day there are 2520 days until the Lord comes back to the earth.
Honestly, I do not care wheter it is pre-trib or mid-trib or post-trib. I do not know how far we are into Revelation. However, this i do know: Jesus is coming right away. Many people were warned in visions and dreams. We must not be asleep, but we must live for Jesus only, and we must live holy. Do not get caught up in worldliness! Jesus is coming right away! Be prepared and wait for Him. May you and I be considered worthy to be with Jesus forever.
My presentation on Revelation Chapter 9, Part 2, covers some of the questions people posed from the first video. I reinforce the fact that the stars falling are Atom Bombs, and the first bomb was most likely a terrorist attack. I connect the mention of the 12 Tribes of Israel as being the Christian people, and I begin to establish the fact that the mention of Murder, Sorcery, Fornication, & Thefts at the end of the chapter are actually money making 'industries' -- /watch?v=FFiDGdTDvQo
When I get to Part 2 of this presentation, I'll deal with the Sorceries mentioned at the end of Revelation 9 which are the Greek words # 5331, 5332, & 5333 related to 'Pharmacy' in your Strong's Bible Concordance. I'll also talk about the Organized Crime involvement in the Murder, Theft, Fornication & Sorcery 'Industries' at the end of the chapter. In the meantime see: Revelation 9, Rev 9, Locusts, Helicopters, Bottomless Pit, Atom Bomb, World War III, Sorcery, Part 1 - /watch?v=P89HNN9Bk6U
Revelation 7:9-14 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
@skydiver626 I've got something else for you to add, Ask any one to show in any of Jesus parables about His return, that it would be in stages, no, just once? Consider the parables of the wheat & tares, sheep & goats, 10 virgins-5 wise & 5 foolish, etc, etc, when Jesus Christ returns once more, it;s to reward the righteous & punish the wicked. Any parable, end of class. Peace&Love2All
1 Thessalonians 4:16 also has a keyword in it...."remain". Why include remain if it is pre-trib? If it is post-trib on the other hand then it would make sense as many Christians will die during the reign of the Anti-Christ.
I have one question about a post tribulation rapture. We KNOW that part of the tribulation will be the rebuilding of the temple and the mark of the beast. If we can determine that the tribulation is ongoing, we would have a very good idea when Christ would return. However, Christ said that NO ONE would know. (except the Father of course) How do you reconcile that information? We cannot know when He will return, however, knowing we are in the Tribulation would give us that information.
@beet74 Correction: No One will know the DAY or the HOUR. But we are required to know the season. That's why Christ used the analogy of the fig tree. BTW, even with the post-trib view, you are unable to pinpoint a particular day. If you try to do it using scripture, you'll be unsuccessful.
@beet74 The beast power is the Vatican the 2nd beast is the USA. Christians are God's chosen people and there will not be a new Temple as the nation of Israel has nothing to do in prophecy anymore except that before Christ comes Jews will see Jesus was the Christ. The Bible says that we would know when He is about to come just not the day nor the hour. The tribulation is misinformation to keep people focused on the wrong things.
@beet74 "We cannot know when He will return, however, knowing we are in the Tribulation would give us that information."
We know the signs by those things told in Dan.11, Matt 24 and the Seals of Rev. (sealed in your mind of the coming events of the trumps & vials)---the trumps announce "It is Time:, the Vials -God's Judgements, are poured out on those not sealed and protected by Our Father.
Satan's number in Rev is 6th Seal, 6th Trump and 6 Vial.
@beet74 The video makes one mistake. It says, without any Biblical reference, that the Day of the Lord is the rapture. The Day of the Lord is actually the day of God's wrath.
@beet74 Rebuilding the temple? Where does the Bible say that? The mistake most pre-tribbers make is that they assume the tribulation and the Day of God's wrath is the same thing. It's not. Christians go through the tribulation and are then raptured along with the dead in Christ. Then comes the Day of God's wrath and since the only one's left on earth by that time are the unbelieving, they are the ones who experience it. Read Revelations and Matthew.
@beet74 Read the parable of the Widow and the Unjust Judge. This prayer is that we will ask God to make justice. And HE WILL DO ASAP. Chirst will shorten the days for us. (So the exact timing can't be determined.) But He asks: will He find faith on earth when He comes back?
Check out MidnightWatcher's Blogspot and read through a few of the articles in the "Theology and Eschatology" section, particularly the "Not Appointed Unto Wrath" and "The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church" articles. I challenge anyone to refute them.
@eddienickels1 Of course I mind, it's why I originally posted to begin with. That believers should resort to name calling in any case, but especially in a public forum, is unacceptable. For the sake of Christ, do not so in a manner that will give occasion to the world to mock God or His church. And you equate pre-tribbers with priests of Baal?? Seriously?
@eddienickels1 So? Christians are being put to death on a daily basis, beaten, tortured, imprisoned, murdered, and slandered far worse than that. We should not be fighting over this, the world watches and laughs at it. Debate? Sure, debate encourages study, but if a little name calling is all I have to endure, I'm gonna wonder if I'm too worldly to be of any use to God.
the gospel. Pray and be ready for pre, prepare to be a light now and during the tribulation, so no matter who has it right, you're right. Is it by faith we are saved, or by faith AND correctly answering the tribulation trivia question?
" I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, , that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among and that you may be united in mind and thought." 1 Corinthians1:10 Pre trib, post trib, mid trib, pre wrath...I don't know...but Paul Washer had it right when he said the day after Christ returns we will know all there is to know about the 2nd coming, but will never fully grasp...
@TheKJVberean Your comments make no sense. Post-Trib believers do not believe overcomers are appointed to wrath so what on earth are you talking about?
@TheKJVberean Post-tribulation, BULLS... nonsense, crap, misinterpretation, speculation and plain jibberish. Trash your bible. Pick up a science book.
Pre trib says rapture comes before 7 years of Great Trib... then one can count and add another 7 years and you'll know exactly when the Lord will come.
Mid trib says rapture comes 3 and a half years of Great Trib... then one can count and add 3 1/2 years and you'll know when the Lord will come.
Post Trib doesn't even know when the Lord will come but relying on the signs of the times. "Not even the angels or the Lord Jesus know when He will come back, only the Father knows".
All those scriptures were fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, THe Lord Jesus and the apsotle Paul are talking about the coming events to the Land of Israel which was fulfilled in AD70.
Post tribulation can be disproven in 1 step by saying that "even if at this moment the tribulation began you are telling me that the Lord will not rapture the church until 7 years in time." by making this statement you post tribulation theorists are declaring 'when 'the so called rapture will take place. At least 7 years from now, thus removing freewill, defining an hour in futurist history is contrary to the word. 1 step. There is no mid or post tribulation position in the bible .
@ksvillani Even with a post-trib view, no one can pinpoint a day or hour using scripture so the rhetoric you're spewing out is fully inaccurate. What can be determined is that there's actually a small window between the end of the great tribulation and the Millennial Reign that Daniel eludes to at the end of his book that provides true believers with a specific TIMEFRAME to expect Christ's return. The devil uses an early pre-trib theory to blind the church of this Scriptural fact.
@skydiver626 Look at it from a Hebraic perspective regarding harvest. At Passover, they were to harvest the first fruits and separate them from the rest of the field and take them to the Temple. Then, the rest of the field except for the four corners was to be harvested. Then the last part of the harvest included the four corners, which correlates to Matthew 24:31 and God sending His angels to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth. Also, Christians are NOT appointed unto wrath.
@ksvillani Also I think that when the Tribulation happens we will not know it exactly. It will come somewhat subtly. I think we right now are entering the tribulation. We are somewhere in the beginning stages of it.
Don't think there will be a gigantic sign saying this is the day it starts, so you can count off when the Lord returns. Also , if there were to be a pretrib rapture, then would we be talking about His third coming? that makes no sense.
@ksvillani Jesus teaching on post tribulation or after tribulation Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Jesus himself said that after the tribulation of those days, he would send his angels to gather his elect from the four corners. Paul taught that the man of sin must be revealed first...so those two things prove that a pre-trib rap cannot happen either.
Jesus didn't say we wouldn't know the season of his return..just that we wouldn't know the day nor the hour.
@ksvillani The bible says angels sound and vials are poured, how can we be sure when exactly on what day the trib starts? no one knows exactly. me, being filled with the spirit in a society of mostly non believers does not mean that I will be excluded from going through the same things the rest of society will go through. in retrospect the MARK, all the world is deceived into receiving it. it doesn`t say a few people were deceived into getting it then the whole world got saved an repented
@ksvillani The tribulation is only 3 1/2 years. So much false teaching going around. Look at Daniel 9:27. 3 1/2 years has happened. Yahushua was cut off in the middle of the 7 years. Doing a little study and pray and the Ruach Hakodesh will open your eyes and you will know the truth. Peace out...
I used to think the way of the video until I did more research. When it talks about the theif in the night, the previous paragraphs were talking about judgement not rapture. He will come to judge those on Earth like a theif in the night, not rapture them as a theif. Secondly when the bible refers to the rapture it is referred as The Day of Christ. The Day of the Lord is always a reference in judgement. The Day of the Lord is spoken at the end of the Millinium as well as the end of Tribulation.
Luk 21:28,36 KJV - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. | Luk 21:36 KJV - Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. | Is not the rapture the escape or redemption event? If not, then all hope is lost from a living standpoint, salvation only by death, earth gets destroyed at the END.
@eddienickels1 Elenin has nothing to do with the Rapture. Only a fool would think that. God bless you Eddie, and thank you for taking the time out in your "Busy" day to write to me!
Good ole 2 Thess 5 soundly defeated the pre-trib rapture farce. . Amazing how so many omit Daniel 9:26 that shows v27 completely fulfilled because it speakes of Christ who filled it. Isa 64:1-4 Ps 50:1-3 68:1-3 2 thess 1:8-9 2:8-9 show the world ends upon his one and only appearence. The flimsy Pre-trib rapture logic is so easily proven wrong with sound doctrine and truths. Acts 17:11
Heaven is the third realm. The Lord descends from heaven.... He waits for us to come UP to him. "We will meet Him in the air"..... The day of the Lord is not the rapture....the darkness, well ELENIN is coming...
Please watch this video. It talks about why The Pre-Trib is the ONLY thing the Bible teaches. I encourage you TO PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO AND THE COMPLETE SERIES youtube.com/watch?v=EyW0MMmJ44E
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet
Thanks for posting the word. Of course the Rapture is not found in the Olivet Discourse, neither does "church" occur in it. The parties are Israel & the Gentile nations. The Rapture is not about all the tribes of the earth mourning, but about comfort for the Church. (1 Th 4; John 14). No one is caught up to a meeting with the Lord in the air in Mat 24; no one is taken to Heaven to the Father's mansion in Mat 24.
@Thunkful2 The Church isnt mentioned" Who are the "elect" that God is shortening those days for? No Rapture? Verse 31 "Then shall he send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect..." I Cor 15, I Thes, II Thes, Rev. ....If God were to remove His chruch during or before the Trib.....who would the Bible be giving prophecy to? Would the Bible remain? Who would teach it, if the Spirit is removed from the Earth?
@Thunkful2 The Church isnt mentioned" Who are the "elect" that God is shortening those days for? No Rapture? Verse 31 "Then shall he send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect..." I Cor 15, I Thes, II Thes, Rev. ....If God were to remove His chruch during or before the Trib.....who would the Bible be giving prophecy to? Would the Bible remain? Who would teach it, if the
I've been studying this a lot and I'm somewhat confused. Thessalonians makes me think that indeed we must see the resurrection first before we are "caught up" but I have a hard time thinking that we'll suffer in the days of wrath since Mathew says it will be as Noah, who was protected by the ark (the last days) and also that he comes as a thief in the night. If we are still here in the tribulation, we would know the time and hour (7 years after the beginning of the tribulation, exactly).
@purosonoracompa You're confused because you are equating God's wrath with the great tribulation. That is incorrect. Pre-tribbers have done a marvelous job of fleecing the church in this area. Go back to I Thess 5 and read it again. At no point does Paul mention the great tribulation. What he DOES mention is the day of the Lord. Paul is clearly stating that the church is not subject to the wrath of God on THE DAY OF THE LORD. The DOTL is a strict post trib event. (I can prove it if you'd like)
@skydiver626 Paul doesn't mention it but John certainly does. When do you suppose God's wrath will take place? There are three and a half years (70 weeks) between the end of our age and the abomination of desolation. Revelation describes the wrath of God being poured out upon the world. You don't believe the tribulation lasts seven years? When God's wrath is poured on the earth the whole world suffers, the elect (144000) have God's seal and are unharmed, but the population is decimated.
@Thunkful2 The word in the greek is "ódin" and it literally means "the pain of child birth, severe agony" If you interpret this word in it's correct context, you will see that Paul is using this simile as way to describe the day of the Lord, making your point entirely invalid because as I have been telling you, the day of the Lord is a STRICT POST TRIB EVENT.
@purosonoracompa SOME but NOT ALL of revelation is describing God's wrath. The trumpets that you were citing as proof of God's wrath makes NO literally mention of it until the 7th and final trumpet. This is when God's wrath IS (present tense) come. Why make that statement at the 7th trumpet unless is hadn't occurred previously throughout all the other trumpets? It's because God's wrath is reserved until the last trumpet. (Paul's last trump)
@purosonoracompa More Proof: 1st understand that the seals are a separate timeline from the trumps - describing the same events from a different perspective. Ask yourself: what is a seal? It's designed to SEAL the contents until unloosed. So why is God's wrath SEALED until the 6th seal? How could God's wrath be issued out throughout all the seals if it's SEALED at the 6th? Because God's wrath is being withheld until after the great trib (study the 6th seal/matt 24:29 parallel)
@purosonoracompa This withholding of God's wrath throughout the first 5 seals is thoroughly verified at the 5th seal where the saints around the thone of God make this statement: how long Lord does thou **NOT** judge and avenge our blood? That fully proves that God is remaining unmoved even througout the great trib because if the 6th seal is a post trib seal (see mat 24:29) then the 5th seal is clearly a great trib seal.
@skydiver626 The fact that there is still blood to be avenged doesn't mean the is unmoved. What do you suppose the seals are, then? They are part of the tribulation. Daniel and Revelations give us timelines. A time, two times, and half a time (3 1/2 years) before the abomination of desolation and 3 1/2 years afterward. I don't presume to understand the scriptures completely, none of us do. I am only searching through them because we get confused, but the truth never changes. Have a good day.
@skydiver626 "sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. " TRAVAIL! Also mentioned in mat 24: Begiinning of Birthpangs (travail). This corresponds with the middle of Dan's 70th week & 5th seal, matyrs, Abom of Des (idol) in the rebuilt Temple. That starts the Great Trib. Look at seal 4, for example & tell me that isn't wrath.
@Thunkful2 The day of the Lord, described throughout the OT, is marked by the sun, moon and stars darkening which happens BEFORE the day of the Lord comes. See Joel 2:31, Joel 3, Isaiah 13:9-10. Christ literally describes the exact celestial anomalies to occur immediately after the great tribulation in Matt 24:29! If the DOTL must wait until the sky darkens and Christ stated in Matt 24 that this particular event won't BEGIN until after the great trib, then the DOTL is strictly Post trib.
Matthew 24-25 is about Israel, the gentile nations, the Lord Jesus coming back to earth to settle its hash with the sheep & goat judgment with the result that some enter the Kingdom. It is the consummation of the age, preceded by signs.
1 Th 4 is about a signless event, the Lord Jesus coming to take His Church home with Him to Heaven. The type of the Rapture is not Noah, but Enoch who was raptured before the flood.
"as Noah" only refers to the fact that every day life continued before the flood. The comparison is with conditions before the flood as before Christ's return. Men will marry, brush their teeth, eat, sleep, do their laundry. The ref to Noah is frequently taken way out of context. The Lord Jesus does not come as a thief in the night for the Church at the Rapture (in scripture). The time of destruction comes as a thief in the night.
@purosonoracompa There are 2 resurrections. One at the Trump, and one at the 1000 years.
If the church were raptured before or during the Trib....who would these prophecies be to? Would the Bible be left during the rapture seeing that it speaks of what happens up until the end, and even after? If the chruch were gone, with the Spirit...would the Word of God return void? Post Trib. Gods wrath is JUDGEMENT OF SIN....the Chruch will be spared this by the blood of Christ, by His name on your head.
To say that there would be any calling of the Church BEFORE final judgement is erronous. As in the days of Noah and Lot....both of the peoples were around UNTIL the judgement. God would not leave ANYONE alive w/o a person to preach salvation UNTIL the judgement had come. Rev. 17," ...come out of her my people"....Rev 16(if i recall correctly) Blessed are those that dies from henceforth..." those that have not the mark of the beast or his name....this is all GREAT tribulation trials.
@Thunkful2 Enoch was not THE rapture. Neither was Elias' carrying away. "those that are alive and remain will be caught up..." <--- = rapture. Great harvest of souls.
@Thunkful2 Enoch was not THE rapture. Neither was Elias' carrying away. "those that are alive and remain will be caught up..." <--- = rapture. Great harvest of souls
THERE IS NO RAPTURE THE ANTICHRIST IS SATAN watch pastor Arnold Murray rapture theory because its riveting & will explain how satan is the father of lies & spread rapture lies to Christians and how the antichrist is not a man but it will be satan playing the role of jesus so he wont be evil he will be holy and he has only a short time which is 5 months at the end of 5months the real Jesus will appear to some it will be like a thief in the night because most will think that he is already here!
VERY good video, it matched up well. Jesus said he will come at the last trump and in revelation the last trumpet blows and here comes jesus... It happened at the last one. I dont understand where people pull the "rapture" out of any time before this. Jesus continually said after this, and after that, THEN you will see him coming... Anyway, if anyone can just post verses to back and prove a pre trib rapture please do so thanks
one rebuttal..........................revelation 17;8..................those whose names are not inthe book of life marveled at the beast!......................I wish you people would quit preaching doom and gloom!....really!.......post trib is doom and gloom and it is a lie!............and how do you preach hope to people when you dont have any hope yourself!
You have not proven that Israel & the Church are the same. In fact Rom 11 clearly distinguishes Israel as a different group. You are illogical claiming that to be elect means the Church. There are elect angels, not in the Church, whose sins were not atoned for on the cross. The Church is elect, but the elect is MORE THAN the Church (other groups).
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as YHWH hath said, and among the remnant those whom YHWH doth call. For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem..."
No Church involved. This has to do with entering the Millennial Kingdom on earth.
what is your proof that restoration does not begin with an event? What makes you think that restoration must be an instantaneous event. If it were instantaneous, why the plural times. Times implies it is not instantaneous.
@eddie BDAG LEXICON dechomai δέχομαι 3. to be receptive of someone, receive, welcome.. of hospitality τινὰ εἰς τ. οἶκον welcome someone into one’s house.. Receive as a guest, welcome Of welcoming children μετὰ φόβου καὶ τρόμου with fear and trembling.. as an angel of God Gal 4:14 Of places receptive to pers. ὃν δεῖ οὐρανὸν (subj.) δέξασθαι whom the heaven must receive Ac 3:21
Your theory requires proof of 2 things. Let's see you prove them.
1) you have to prove that "receive" into a home implies imprisonment so that one cannot come and go.
2) times of restoration cannot start with a pre-Trib Rapture.
You have failed to make your case thus far. Quoting strong proves nothing. But if you want to check a word, go to Greek Lexicon BDAG, the standard NT koine Lexicon (Bauer-Danker-Ardnt-Gingrich).
Perfect love casts out fear. Love is the fruit of the Holy Spirit; since I became a child of God I have been enabled even to love my enemies & those who revile me.
The expression is plural "times." Mat 24 has a post-trib coming of Christ, but it does not have any Rapture nor any Church -- it is Israel & the nations there. What ensues is the Kingdom after the Sheep & Goat judgment of Mat 25. Now who are these sheep who enter the Kingdom with unglorified bodies if they were all just taken up by Christ at the Rapture?
your so is incorrect. Mat 24 is not about the Rapture of any Church, which 1 Thes 4 is about. 1 Thes 5 has the trib.
"until the times of restoration of all things" How do you know that the pre-trib rapture is not the start of the Times of the Restoration of all things?"
@eddie Acts 3:21 says nothing about an inability of Christ to go places. I must receive the mailman until the US stops delivering mail. But he does not stay at my home all the time. You are confusing receiving with staying.
2 In my Father’s house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I COME AGAIN and will receive you to myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
I am not aware of "second coming" even occurirng even once in the Bible. So that is a non-issue. It is a logical fallacy to say that becs the Bible says there is a "2nd coming," then the Rapture cannot be Christ coming for the Church pre-trib. The fallacy is your assumption of "2nd coming" as a Biblical phrase. There is a 2nd appearing in Hebrews. Heb doesn't say no 3rd appearing or whether it is all counted as 2nd. How u number comings or appearances proves nothing
Neither I nor my friends have started falsely marking your postings as spam. It is very childish to mark posts as spam because you don't agree with them or hate the poster. How would you like having 20 people marking all your posts as spam when they are not spam? I intend to address the issues; one of which is your salvation or lack of it.
The need for the questions is to know what your basic problem is. You don't come across as a brother in the Lord who simply disagrees with me on eschatology, but as a hateful accuser of the brethren. I don't pass judgment on you, I merely ask the question.
THIS VIDEO'S BASIC ERROR: THE RAPTURE IS NOT CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD.
Do a concorance check. You see that it refers to a time of the Lord taking charge particularly w/ punishing judgment. Zeph is the book on the Day of YHWH.
End of 1 Th 4 has Rapture
Start of 1 Th has Day of the Lord, time of trouble.
The Rapture is not a time of trouble or judgment, but the taking of the Church to be w/ Christ; it is a comfort. Jn 14 & Jas 5 refer to the same event without using "rapture."
@Thunkful2 End of 1 Th 4 has rapture, start of 1 Th 5 says BUT of the TIMES AND SEASONS, The times and seasons of what Paul just told them about, the rapture. This is proved by the use of the word BUT connecting 5:1 to the end of chapter 4. So then Paul answers the times and seasons of the rapture question by saying they already know that the day of the Lord comes as a thief. Point and case, the day of the Lord and the rapture are connected. The rapture initiates the day of the Lord.
The Rapture is one time and one season. "times and seasons" is plural. Thus it is unreasonable to make the two identical. But δὲ is contrastive. How does BUT prove anything that follows is identical with the past? It does not. You have no shred of evidence to make the Day of the Lord = the Rapture. A survey of the instances where the DotL occurs in the Bible should convince you of that, unless u just want to argue with a closed mind & predetermined outcome.
You have not one verse that ever says that "The rapture initiates the DotL. The Rapture is a COMFORT, both here & in John 14. The Rapture does not speak of God's wrath on the earth. But the DotL does. Have you actually done a concordance check of the occurrences of The Day of the Lord? Woe to you who desire the Day of the Lord. But the Rapture is not for us to expect as woe, but as comfort.
Interpreting the departure as literal in 2 Thes 2 is not a requirement of Pre-trib. It is a possibility, supported by the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon & by usage in the Dormition of Mary. If a word is used once elsewhere in a different sense, it proves nothing about its use elsewhere.
John 14 says nothing about any tribulation. So you can't make any time line out of it relative to the tribulation. The word "again" does not specify any number of comings. Did the Lord come for Stephen and to meet Paul? How do you number them?
Rom 11 does not say that Israel is the root or the tree. There were elect persons not in Israel (like Noah) before there was any Israel. The Bible never says that within the elect there are not distinct groups. There are elect angels -- not a part of Israel, not in the Church; a different group within the elect.
Now where would you go if you died today? Who is the Lord Jesus?
Another error: The elect are not the same as the Church. Abraham was never part of the Church. It was yet future in Mat 16 "I WILL build." The Church began on Pentecost by the Baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1-2; 1 Cor 12:13). Yet Abe was surely elect.
Before anyone takes in hand to teach on eschatology, he needs to confess who the Lord Jesus is, what the ultimate source of authority is (Bible, not Bible as interpreted by some group), and He needs to trust Christ as Savior.
Rom 11 never says that the olive tree is Israel. If it were, then how could Israel be broken off as branches from the tree & yet there be a tree? There would be no tree left. The passage makes sense as tree = sphere of God's blessing. But whatever u make of it, the tree is not Israel nor is Israel the Church.
My advice to anyone is to settle first who is the Lord Jesus, what is the ultimate authority, & get saved. Until then one cannot understand.
To be a Judahite is to be an Israeli. But to be an Israeli is not necessarily to be a Judahite. The Church is elect, but not the only elect. The Church was future in Mat 16 "I will build My Church." Yet saints in the OT were elect & not in the future Church.
"They are not all Israel which are of Israel" Yes, true Israel is restricted to a smaller number, but not expanded to include the Church.
There is not one Bible verse that equates Israel w/ the Church. Rom 9-11 distinguishes
There is no Rapture in the Olivet Discourse & no Church. It is about Israel & the nations (Mat 24-25; Luke 21).
The quote is misleading for leaving out verses. 21:22 refers to the AD 70 Roman destruction of Jeru. 21:25 has moved to signs of Christ's coming back to earth. Neither of these events is called the Rapture; neither involves the Church. Luke's Olivet Discourse differs from Mt's & Mk's by giving additional info on AD 70 & the Times of the Gentiles crossing the Ch age.
I would go 2B w/ my precious Savior, the Lord Jesus, God the Son, YHWH, God become man, raised from the dead. For I have trusted Him as my Savior & called on His name.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & u shall be saved."
"whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
I have trusted Christ as Savior. He paid for my sins on the cross. The Lord guarantees me salvation. He is in Heaven, that is where I wud go (absent from the body, present w/ the Lord)
"talking of" establishes nothing. You must consider what is said. The gathering together in the air (Rapture) is indeed cause to not be worried about the Day of the Lord destruction to come. Moreover, the DotL cannot come before the APOSTASIA (= departure).
HONEY BEE HAS BEEN MORE THAN CIVIL, SHE HAS BEEN LOVING.
I recognize a fellow member of the Body of Christ.
You don't even answer where you would go if you died tonight. Without settling salvation, there is little point in trying to convert a heretic on a topic of eschatology.
"sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of YHWH cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the dawn spread upon the mountains; a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after them, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth:
let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.. a great people & a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after them, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and none hath escaped them.
1 And Jehovah uttereth his voice before his army; for his camp is very great; for he is strong that executeth his word; for the day of Jehovah is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with lamps; and I will punish the men that are settled on their lees, that say in their heart, Jehovah will not do good, neither will he do evil. 13 And their wealth shall become a spoil, and their houses a desolation: yea, they shall build houses, but shall not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but shall not drink the wine thereof. 14 The great day of Jehovah is near,
13 And their wealth shall become a spoil, and their houses a desolation: .. 14 The great day of Jehovah is near, it is near and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of Jehovah; the mighty man crieth there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 a day of the trumpet and alarm, against the fortified cities, and against the high battlements.
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is at hand: for Jehovah hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath consecrated his guests. 8 And it shall come to pass in the day of Jehovah’s sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s sons, and all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. 9 And in that day I will punish all those that leap over the threshold, that fill their master’s house with violence and deceit.
Enter not into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, look not thou on their affliction in the day of their calamity, neither lay ye hands on their substance in the day of their calamity. 14 And stand thou not in the crossway, to cut off those of his that escape; and deliver not up those of his that remain in the day of distress. 15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations:
15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee; thy dealing shall return upon thine own head. 16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the nations drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and swallow down, and shall be as though they had not been.
Therefore thus saith Jehovah, the God of hosts, the Lord: Wailing shall be in all the broad ways; and they shall say in all the streets, Alas! Alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful in lamentation to wailing. 17 And in all vineyards shall be wailing; for I will pass through the midst of thee, saith Jehovah. 18 Woe unto you that desire the day of Jehovah! Wherefore would ye have the day of Jehovah?
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of Jehovah! Wherefore would ye have the day of Jehovah? It is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. 20 Shall not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
12 Let the nations bestir themselves, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle; for the harvest is ripe: come, tread ye; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision.
DotL H 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. 16 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel.
Go up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men go forth: Cush and Put, that handle the shield; and the Ludim, that handle and bend the bow. 10 For that day is a day of the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour and be satiate, and shall drink its fill of their blood; for the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
DotL K And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the Day of the Lord is just at hand; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the APOSTASIA come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"
Rather than argue when the Tribulation occurs or when the Rapture occurs, we can all agree that following Christ is the important issue. We need to spend each day as if it were our last one on earth and follow what our Lord taught us.
beet74 1 week ago
There is an EASIER way,
1. There are only TWO resurrections in Rev 20. FIRST is for life. SECOND is for judgment. If there were a Secret rapture Before or In the trib, the ORDER in 1Thess is: "FIRST the dead in Christ THEN we who are still alive". So in Rev 20, those would be the SECOND and the THIRD resurrections!!! NO! The FIRST resurrections is Rev 19-20. At rapture there are also BIRDS eating the dead corps. You can read Luk 17:37 and Rev 19:17-18 for it. Rapture is immed. before Armaggedon.
vattee 2 weeks ago
@vattee There is only one resurrection!!! T
THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST!! Then we who remain will be given gloriedfied bodies! Are you talking about the Book of Life?.....we will be judged from the book of life!!! Rev. 20 is another account of 1Thess!!
ncgingergigi 1 week ago
I believe the Tribulation begins when the Anti-Christ makes a seven year treaty with Israel and we know the Temple must be rebuilt because the Anti-Christ stops sacrifice in it during the Tribulation. Also the Evil One will also stand in the Temple declaring he is God, so there must be a Temple for him to do this. What is most important however, is that we live each day for Christ, no matter when we think the Rapture will happen.
beet74 3 weeks ago
@thesmoonge
not appointed to wrath. That is so true. I have a question though. Does it mean that one is appointed to wrath if they are in the tribulation? If so, what about those who become believers during the trib and live to reign with Jesus in the millenium? Are they subject to wrath as they were on earth during trib?
Jesus was the firstfruit of the harvest.
Myhopeisinhim 1 month ago
@NickelsBuckingBulls what are your thought pre-trib or Post-trib and why?
DanielGlock26 1 month ago
@DanielGlock26 Post-trib. Christ said(John14:3) I will come again. He never said I will come again twice. Also 1st Thessaloninas 4:15 says unto the coming of the Lord. A singular event(these are pre-trib mainstay verses 4:15-17) Now for the Big one Matthew 24:30 and they shall see the Son of man coming. Lookk back at verse 29 and see when that happens.
NickelsBuckingBulls 3 weeks ago
@DanielGlock26 I cannot reply to your e-mail ask your questions again here on this video.
NickelsBuckingBulls 3 weeks ago
@NickelsBuckingBulls Amen to that, I was referring to your comment at mrrangerman, I just think we should be as nice as possible don't want to let the discussion turn into anger, or push anyone away
DanielGlock26 1 month ago
@NickelsBuckingBulls hey man let's make sure were not attacking anyone, we all just have questions about certain things, i make sure I'm not attacking anyone's interpretation ;)
DanielGlock26 1 month ago
@DanielGlock26 To live is Christ to die is gain is in the Bible Paul talks about how much better it would be to be with Christ. I am not attacking anyone just quoting Bible scriptures.
NickelsBuckingBulls 1 month ago
@mrrangerman ive been confused with this lately, It seems like there is more scripture pointing to the post tribulation or right before Christ comes back to destroy the enemies, but I don't think alot of us will be alive
DanielGlock26 1 month ago
@DanielGlock26 You are right. The anti-christ will kill alot of Christians but who cares to live is Christ but to die is to gain.
NickelsBuckingBulls 1 month ago
PART 2 The "man of sin"(antichrist) 2The2:3 can not be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed vs.7 We the children of God have the Holy Spirit living inside us, if the Holy Spirit is removed and the Christian left behind that would go against scripture, and make Jesus a liar as Jesus said "he would never leave us" Heb 13:5 and Matt 28:20 In Rev ch.1-3 Jesus talks to the church thats on earth, then in ch4 vs1 the rapture takes place "come up hither" and the church is not mentioned after that.
mrrangerman 1 month ago
@mrrangerman Revelation 4:1 is not the so called "rapture" Where do you get this garbage? You thinking 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 is your pre-tribulation so called "rapture" also. If they where both your "rapture" you would go right past Christ as you ascended to heaven because he is descending from heaven. Your are confused!
NickelsBuckingBulls 1 month ago
PART 1 You need to study a little bit more, "the day of the Lord" is NOT the rapture, in 1Thes4:14-18 Paul is talking about the rapture, he is giving events in order "caught up together"(rapture). then Cpt 5 is talking about the tribulation(day of the Lord). He again does the same thing in 2Thes2 Verse 1 is the rapture "our gathering together unto him". Then in vs. 2 "the day of Christ" here again this is the tribulation.
mrrangerman 1 month ago
Well done video, explains scripture very well! Thank you and May OurHeavenly Father keep you strong in these troubled times.
RememberPaulRevere 1 month ago
@saturnn77
can you show a verse that declares that the tribulation is referred to as the day of the Lord and not when he returns?
Myhopeisinhim 1 month ago
If use Matt 24 1-31 to support your theory of post trib, you are misunderstanding those scriptures which are referring to Israel itself. Verses 32 on are in reference to the disciples and and believers. Rightly dived the word of God.
saturnn77 1 month ago
@ksvillani We know when the day of the Lord/tribulation starts at the day when the Antichrist signs or confirms a covenant with Israel for a period of 7 years. From that day there are 2520 days until the Lord comes back to the earth.
saturnn77 1 month ago
When you don't understand that bible, this kind of error is more than likely going to happen..
saturnn77 1 month ago
Honestly, I do not care wheter it is pre-trib or mid-trib or post-trib. I do not know how far we are into Revelation. However, this i do know: Jesus is coming right away. Many people were warned in visions and dreams. We must not be asleep, but we must live for Jesus only, and we must live holy. Do not get caught up in worldliness! Jesus is coming right away! Be prepared and wait for Him. May you and I be considered worthy to be with Jesus forever.
ViDeOfee1994 1 month ago
My presentation on Revelation Chapter 9, Part 2, covers some of the questions people posed from the first video. I reinforce the fact that the stars falling are Atom Bombs, and the first bomb was most likely a terrorist attack. I connect the mention of the 12 Tribes of Israel as being the Christian people, and I begin to establish the fact that the mention of Murder, Sorcery, Fornication, & Thefts at the end of the chapter are actually money making 'industries' -- /watch?v=FFiDGdTDvQo
kz1300club 1 month ago
So has the tribulation not started yet?
cloverMMA 2 months ago
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When I get to Part 2 of this presentation, I'll deal with the Sorceries mentioned at the end of Revelation 9 which are the Greek words # 5331, 5332, & 5333 related to 'Pharmacy' in your Strong's Bible Concordance. I'll also talk about the Organized Crime involvement in the Murder, Theft, Fornication & Sorcery 'Industries' at the end of the chapter. In the meantime see: Revelation 9, Rev 9, Locusts, Helicopters, Bottomless Pit, Atom Bomb, World War III, Sorcery, Part 1 - /watch?v=P89HNN9Bk6U
kz1300club 2 months ago
Revelation 7:9-14 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
jamjr1972 2 months ago
@skydiver626 I've got something else for you to add, Ask any one to show in any of Jesus parables about His return, that it would be in stages, no, just once? Consider the parables of the wheat & tares, sheep & goats, 10 virgins-5 wise & 5 foolish, etc, etc, when Jesus Christ returns once more, it;s to reward the righteous & punish the wicked. Any parable, end of class. Peace&Love2All
JimmyCarol100 2 months ago
1 Thessalonians 4:16 also has a keyword in it...."remain". Why include remain if it is pre-trib? If it is post-trib on the other hand then it would make sense as many Christians will die during the reign of the Anti-Christ.
diablo9333 2 months ago
I have one question about a post tribulation rapture. We KNOW that part of the tribulation will be the rebuilding of the temple and the mark of the beast. If we can determine that the tribulation is ongoing, we would have a very good idea when Christ would return. However, Christ said that NO ONE would know. (except the Father of course) How do you reconcile that information? We cannot know when He will return, however, knowing we are in the Tribulation would give us that information.
beet74 2 months ago
@beet74 Correction: No One will know the DAY or the HOUR. But we are required to know the season. That's why Christ used the analogy of the fig tree. BTW, even with the post-trib view, you are unable to pinpoint a particular day. If you try to do it using scripture, you'll be unsuccessful.
skydiver626 2 months ago 5
@beet74 The beast power is the Vatican the 2nd beast is the USA. Christians are God's chosen people and there will not be a new Temple as the nation of Israel has nothing to do in prophecy anymore except that before Christ comes Jews will see Jesus was the Christ. The Bible says that we would know when He is about to come just not the day nor the hour. The tribulation is misinformation to keep people focused on the wrong things.
ooDuckey01 2 months ago
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@beet74 "We cannot know when He will return, however, knowing we are in the Tribulation would give us that information."
We know the signs by those things told in Dan.11, Matt 24 and the Seals of Rev. (sealed in your mind of the coming events of the trumps & vials)---the trumps announce "It is Time:, the Vials -God's Judgements, are poured out on those not sealed and protected by Our Father.
Satan's number in Rev is 6th Seal, 6th Trump and 6 Vial.
RememberPaulRevere 1 month ago
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FlashGordon288 3 weeks ago
@beet74 The video makes one mistake. It says, without any Biblical reference, that the Day of the Lord is the rapture. The Day of the Lord is actually the day of God's wrath.
FlashGordon288 3 weeks ago
@FlashGordon288
But the rapture happens at the start of the day of the Lord
Myhopeisinhim 3 weeks ago
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@beet74 Rebuilding the temple? Where does the Bible say that? The mistake most pre-tribbers make is that they assume the tribulation and the Day of God's wrath is the same thing. It's not. Christians go through the tribulation and are then raptured along with the dead in Christ. Then comes the Day of God's wrath and since the only one's left on earth by that time are the unbelieving, they are the ones who experience it. Read Revelations and Matthew.
FlashGordon288 3 weeks ago
@beet74 Read the parable of the Widow and the Unjust Judge. This prayer is that we will ask God to make justice. And HE WILL DO ASAP. Chirst will shorten the days for us. (So the exact timing can't be determined.) But He asks: will He find faith on earth when He comes back?
vattee 2 weeks ago
@beet74 We can know the season....FEAST OF TRUMPETS!! At the sound of the last trumpet!!!
ncgingergigi 1 week ago
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Check out MidnightWatcher's Blogspot and read through a few of the articles in the "Theology and Eschatology" section, particularly the "Not Appointed Unto Wrath" and "The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church" articles. I challenge anyone to refute them.
MidnightWatcher322 3 months ago
@eddienickels1 Of course I mind, it's why I originally posted to begin with. That believers should resort to name calling in any case, but especially in a public forum, is unacceptable. For the sake of Christ, do not so in a manner that will give occasion to the world to mock God or His church. And you equate pre-tribbers with priests of Baal?? Seriously?
OldDannyboy12 3 months ago
@eddienickels1 So? Christians are being put to death on a daily basis, beaten, tortured, imprisoned, murdered, and slandered far worse than that. We should not be fighting over this, the world watches and laughs at it. Debate? Sure, debate encourages study, but if a little name calling is all I have to endure, I'm gonna wonder if I'm too worldly to be of any use to God.
OldDannyboy12 3 months ago
the gospel. Pray and be ready for pre, prepare to be a light now and during the tribulation, so no matter who has it right, you're right. Is it by faith we are saved, or by faith AND correctly answering the tribulation trivia question?
OldDannyboy12 3 months ago
" I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, , that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among and that you may be united in mind and thought." 1 Corinthians1:10 Pre trib, post trib, mid trib, pre wrath...I don't know...but Paul Washer had it right when he said the day after Christ returns we will know all there is to know about the 2nd coming, but will never fully grasp...
OldDannyboy12 3 months ago
I would rather be prepared for the Tribulation and be surprised by the Rapture than be prepared for the Rapture and be surprised by the Tribulation
960Terra 3 months ago
@TheKJVberean Your comments make no sense. Post-Trib believers do not believe overcomers are appointed to wrath so what on earth are you talking about?
ReformedEklektos 3 months ago
@TheKJVberean Post-tribulation, BULLS... nonsense, crap, misinterpretation, speculation and plain jibberish. Trash your bible. Pick up a science book.
ndzoko 4 months ago
Pre trib says rapture comes before 7 years of Great Trib... then one can count and add another 7 years and you'll know exactly when the Lord will come.
Mid trib says rapture comes 3 and a half years of Great Trib... then one can count and add 3 1/2 years and you'll know when the Lord will come.
Post Trib doesn't even know when the Lord will come but relying on the signs of the times. "Not even the angels or the Lord Jesus know when He will come back, only the Father knows".
juna17th 4 months ago in playlist More videos from skydiver626
All those scriptures were fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, THe Lord Jesus and the apsotle Paul are talking about the coming events to the Land of Israel which was fulfilled in AD70.
ksvillani 4 months ago
Post tribulation can be disproven in 1 step by saying that "even if at this moment the tribulation began you are telling me that the Lord will not rapture the church until 7 years in time." by making this statement you post tribulation theorists are declaring 'when 'the so called rapture will take place. At least 7 years from now, thus removing freewill, defining an hour in futurist history is contrary to the word. 1 step. There is no mid or post tribulation position in the bible .
ksvillani 4 months ago
@ksvillani Even with a post-trib view, no one can pinpoint a day or hour using scripture so the rhetoric you're spewing out is fully inaccurate. What can be determined is that there's actually a small window between the end of the great tribulation and the Millennial Reign that Daniel eludes to at the end of his book that provides true believers with a specific TIMEFRAME to expect Christ's return. The devil uses an early pre-trib theory to blind the church of this Scriptural fact.
skydiver626 4 months ago 6
@skydiver626 Look at it from a Hebraic perspective regarding harvest. At Passover, they were to harvest the first fruits and separate them from the rest of the field and take them to the Temple. Then, the rest of the field except for the four corners was to be harvested. Then the last part of the harvest included the four corners, which correlates to Matthew 24:31 and God sending His angels to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth. Also, Christians are NOT appointed unto wrath.
TheSmoonge 1 month ago
@skydiver626 ! ! ! A M E N ! ! !
ppdrawings 4 weeks ago
@ksvillani Also I think that when the Tribulation happens we will not know it exactly. It will come somewhat subtly. I think we right now are entering the tribulation. We are somewhere in the beginning stages of it.
Don't think there will be a gigantic sign saying this is the day it starts, so you can count off when the Lord returns. Also , if there were to be a pretrib rapture, then would we be talking about His third coming? that makes no sense.
7archers 4 months ago
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@ksvillani Jesus teaching on post tribulation or after tribulation Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
thetruthimpart 4 months ago
@ksvillani, Do You believe that the First resurrection is spread out over time? That there is more than ONE first resurrection?
GodsSeer 3 months ago
@ksvillani
Jesus himself said that after the tribulation of those days, he would send his angels to gather his elect from the four corners. Paul taught that the man of sin must be revealed first...so those two things prove that a pre-trib rap cannot happen either.
Jesus didn't say we wouldn't know the season of his return..just that we wouldn't know the day nor the hour.
Myhopeisinhim 1 month ago
@ksvillani The bible says angels sound and vials are poured, how can we be sure when exactly on what day the trib starts? no one knows exactly. me, being filled with the spirit in a society of mostly non believers does not mean that I will be excluded from going through the same things the rest of society will go through. in retrospect the MARK, all the world is deceived into receiving it. it doesn`t say a few people were deceived into getting it then the whole world got saved an repented
godzeyz 1 month ago
@ksvillani The tribulation is only 3 1/2 years. So much false teaching going around. Look at Daniel 9:27. 3 1/2 years has happened. Yahushua was cut off in the middle of the 7 years. Doing a little study and pray and the Ruach Hakodesh will open your eyes and you will know the truth. Peace out...
JoeCoolRoxYou 1 week ago
it's pretty simple, when He appears, we'll be like Him as He is. Have faith in God.
greenpilgrim50 4 months ago
Repent or perish, saith the Lord. Luke 13:3
Please read: Malachi 3:16 onwards.
There is no such thing as a rapture after the tribulation! That's the wrath of God upon the wicked. God declares, and must be fulfilled.
Jesus is coming soon.
paulojose1955 4 months ago
I used to think the way of the video until I did more research. When it talks about the theif in the night, the previous paragraphs were talking about judgement not rapture. He will come to judge those on Earth like a theif in the night, not rapture them as a theif. Secondly when the bible refers to the rapture it is referred as The Day of Christ. The Day of the Lord is always a reference in judgement. The Day of the Lord is spoken at the end of the Millinium as well as the end of Tribulation.
marksrig 4 months ago
Luk 21:28,36 KJV - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. | Luk 21:36 KJV - Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. | Is not the rapture the escape or redemption event? If not, then all hope is lost from a living standpoint, salvation only by death, earth gets destroyed at the END.
sPIRIToFmYSTERY 4 months ago
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@eddienickels1 Hi Eddie! If you like...you can read everything I have said in the past 3 weeks on my channel page, and then some! Take care Eddie!
Just click on my name above in blue and it will take you to my channel page! God bless!
MamasitaDeVegas 4 months ago
@eddienickels1 Hi Eddie! If you like...you can read everything I had said in the past 3 weeks on my channel page, and then some! Take care Eddie!
Just click on my name above in blue and it will take you to my channel page! God bless!
MamasitaDeVegas 4 months ago
@eddienickels1 Elenin has nothing to do with the Rapture. Only a fool would think that. God bless you Eddie, and thank you for taking the time out in your "Busy" day to write to me!
Jesus is Lord!
MamasitaDeVegas 4 months ago
Good ole 2 Thess 5 soundly defeated the pre-trib rapture farce. . Amazing how so many omit Daniel 9:26 that shows v27 completely fulfilled because it speakes of Christ who filled it. Isa 64:1-4 Ps 50:1-3 68:1-3 2 thess 1:8-9 2:8-9 show the world ends upon his one and only appearence. The flimsy Pre-trib rapture logic is so easily proven wrong with sound doctrine and truths. Acts 17:11
ashqelonsunset 5 months ago
Heaven is the third realm. The Lord descends from heaven.... He waits for us to come UP to him. "We will meet Him in the air"..... The day of the Lord is not the rapture....the darkness, well ELENIN is coming...
MamasitaDeVegas 5 months ago
Please watch this video. It talks about why The Pre-Trib is the ONLY thing the Bible teaches. I encourage you TO PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO AND THE COMPLETE SERIES youtube.com/watch?v=EyW0MMmJ44E
ruflychux 5 months ago
Mat 24 :29; 30; 31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet
zatoisafake 5 months ago
@zatoisafake
Thanks for posting the word. Of course the Rapture is not found in the Olivet Discourse, neither does "church" occur in it. The parties are Israel & the Gentile nations. The Rapture is not about all the tribes of the earth mourning, but about comfort for the Church. (1 Th 4; John 14). No one is caught up to a meeting with the Lord in the air in Mat 24; no one is taken to Heaven to the Father's mansion in Mat 24.
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@Thunkful2 The Church isnt mentioned" Who are the "elect" that God is shortening those days for? No Rapture? Verse 31 "Then shall he send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect..." I Cor 15, I Thes, II Thes, Rev. ....If God were to remove His chruch during or before the Trib.....who would the Bible be giving prophecy to? Would the Bible remain? Who would teach it, if the Spirit is removed from the Earth?
diggadoo12 5 months ago
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@Thunkful2 The Church isnt mentioned" Who are the "elect" that God is shortening those days for? No Rapture? Verse 31 "Then shall he send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect..." I Cor 15, I Thes, II Thes, Rev. ....If God were to remove His chruch during or before the Trib.....who would the Bible be giving prophecy to? Would the Bible remain? Who would teach it, if the
Spirit is removed from the Earth?
diggadoo12 5 months ago
I've been studying this a lot and I'm somewhat confused. Thessalonians makes me think that indeed we must see the resurrection first before we are "caught up" but I have a hard time thinking that we'll suffer in the days of wrath since Mathew says it will be as Noah, who was protected by the ark (the last days) and also that he comes as a thief in the night. If we are still here in the tribulation, we would know the time and hour (7 years after the beginning of the tribulation, exactly).
purosonoracompa 5 months ago
@purosonoracompa You're confused because you are equating God's wrath with the great tribulation. That is incorrect. Pre-tribbers have done a marvelous job of fleecing the church in this area. Go back to I Thess 5 and read it again. At no point does Paul mention the great tribulation. What he DOES mention is the day of the Lord. Paul is clearly stating that the church is not subject to the wrath of God on THE DAY OF THE LORD. The DOTL is a strict post trib event. (I can prove it if you'd like)
skydiver626 5 months ago
@skydiver626 Paul doesn't mention it but John certainly does. When do you suppose God's wrath will take place? There are three and a half years (70 weeks) between the end of our age and the abomination of desolation. Revelation describes the wrath of God being poured out upon the world. You don't believe the tribulation lasts seven years? When God's wrath is poured on the earth the whole world suffers, the elect (144000) have God's seal and are unharmed, but the population is decimated.
purosonoracompa 5 months ago
@puros
Paul doesn't mention it? What does TRAVAIL mean? 1 Th 5?
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@Thunkful2 The word in the greek is "ódin" and it literally means "the pain of child birth, severe agony" If you interpret this word in it's correct context, you will see that Paul is using this simile as way to describe the day of the Lord, making your point entirely invalid because as I have been telling you, the day of the Lord is a STRICT POST TRIB EVENT.
skydiver626 5 months ago
@purosonoracompa SOME but NOT ALL of revelation is describing God's wrath. The trumpets that you were citing as proof of God's wrath makes NO literally mention of it until the 7th and final trumpet. This is when God's wrath IS (present tense) come. Why make that statement at the 7th trumpet unless is hadn't occurred previously throughout all the other trumpets? It's because God's wrath is reserved until the last trumpet. (Paul's last trump)
skydiver626 5 months ago
@purosonoracompa More Proof: 1st understand that the seals are a separate timeline from the trumps - describing the same events from a different perspective. Ask yourself: what is a seal? It's designed to SEAL the contents until unloosed. So why is God's wrath SEALED until the 6th seal? How could God's wrath be issued out throughout all the seals if it's SEALED at the 6th? Because God's wrath is being withheld until after the great trib (study the 6th seal/matt 24:29 parallel)
skydiver626 5 months ago
@purosonoracompa This withholding of God's wrath throughout the first 5 seals is thoroughly verified at the 5th seal where the saints around the thone of God make this statement: how long Lord does thou **NOT** judge and avenge our blood? That fully proves that God is remaining unmoved even througout the great trib because if the 6th seal is a post trib seal (see mat 24:29) then the 5th seal is clearly a great trib seal.
skydiver626 5 months ago
@skydiver626 The fact that there is still blood to be avenged doesn't mean the is unmoved. What do you suppose the seals are, then? They are part of the tribulation. Daniel and Revelations give us timelines. A time, two times, and half a time (3 1/2 years) before the abomination of desolation and 3 1/2 years afterward. I don't presume to understand the scriptures completely, none of us do. I am only searching through them because we get confused, but the truth never changes. Have a good day.
purosonoracompa 5 months ago
@skydiver626 "sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. " TRAVAIL! Also mentioned in mat 24: Begiinning of Birthpangs (travail). This corresponds with the middle of Dan's 70th week & 5th seal, matyrs, Abom of Des (idol) in the rebuilt Temple. That starts the Great Trib. Look at seal 4, for example & tell me that isn't wrath.
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@skydiver626
Let's see your proof that the DotL is a post trib event instead of beginning the Great Trib. The Gt Trib starts (2 Th 2) after
1) the apostasia (departure = rapture?)
2) Temple rebuilt (necessary for 3)
3) Man of Sin sits in the Temple.
When you see the abom sitting in the Temple, run for it! (But that speaks to Israel, not the Church)
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@Thunkful2 The day of the Lord, described throughout the OT, is marked by the sun, moon and stars darkening which happens BEFORE the day of the Lord comes. See Joel 2:31, Joel 3, Isaiah 13:9-10. Christ literally describes the exact celestial anomalies to occur immediately after the great tribulation in Matt 24:29! If the DOTL must wait until the sky darkens and Christ stated in Matt 24 that this particular event won't BEGIN until after the great trib, then the DOTL is strictly Post trib.
skydiver626 5 months ago
@puros
Matthew 24-25 is about Israel, the gentile nations, the Lord Jesus coming back to earth to settle its hash with the sheep & goat judgment with the result that some enter the Kingdom. It is the consummation of the age, preceded by signs.
1 Th 4 is about a signless event, the Lord Jesus coming to take His Church home with Him to Heaven. The type of the Rapture is not Noah, but Enoch who was raptured before the flood.
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@puros
"as Noah" only refers to the fact that every day life continued before the flood. The comparison is with conditions before the flood as before Christ's return. Men will marry, brush their teeth, eat, sleep, do their laundry. The ref to Noah is frequently taken way out of context. The Lord Jesus does not come as a thief in the night for the Church at the Rapture (in scripture). The time of destruction comes as a thief in the night.
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@purosonoracompa There are 2 resurrections. One at the Trump, and one at the 1000 years.
If the church were raptured before or during the Trib....who would these prophecies be to? Would the Bible be left during the rapture seeing that it speaks of what happens up until the end, and even after? If the chruch were gone, with the Spirit...would the Word of God return void? Post Trib. Gods wrath is JUDGEMENT OF SIN....the Chruch will be spared this by the blood of Christ, by His name on your head.
diggadoo12 5 months ago
To say that there would be any calling of the Church BEFORE final judgement is erronous. As in the days of Noah and Lot....both of the peoples were around UNTIL the judgement. God would not leave ANYONE alive w/o a person to preach salvation UNTIL the judgement had come. Rev. 17," ...come out of her my people"....Rev 16(if i recall correctly) Blessed are those that dies from henceforth..." those that have not the mark of the beast or his name....this is all GREAT tribulation trials.
diggadoo12 5 months ago
@diggadoo
You seem to forget Enoch who was raptured before the flood!
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@Thunkful2 Enoch was not THE rapture. Neither was Elias' carrying away. "those that are alive and remain will be caught up..." <--- = rapture. Great harvest of souls.
diggadoo12 5 months ago
@diggadoo
What do you mean not THE rapture? I count 7 raptures in the Bible:
Enoch, Elijah, the Lord Jesus, Paul, John, The Church, the Two Witnesses.
Enoch is typical of the Rapture of the Church, taken up before the Day of the Lord (Flood).
You do know about "types," don't you?
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@Thunkful2 @Thunkful2 Not so.
There are 5 different accounts of the same event within Revelations, but only one Harvest.
Paul, and John?
Jesus was Raptured?
I dont think that you adhere to any known theological circles.
This is all....well incorrect.
Matt 24, Eze 36-49, I/II Thes, I Cor 15, II Peter, and Revelations...to name a few....not to mention Zech 12-14.
I do not believe that anything of value can be diluted from your muddying of the waters.
diggadoo12 5 months ago
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@Thunkful2 Enoch was not THE rapture. Neither was Elias' carrying away. "those that are alive and remain will be caught up..." <--- = rapture. Great harvest of souls
diggadoo12 5 months ago
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THERE IS NO RAPTURE THE ANTICHRIST IS SATAN watch pastor Arnold Murray rapture theory because its riveting & will explain how satan is the father of lies & spread rapture lies to Christians and how the antichrist is not a man but it will be satan playing the role of jesus so he wont be evil he will be holy and he has only a short time which is 5 months at the end of 5months the real Jesus will appear to some it will be like a thief in the night because most will think that he is already here!
ShadeOfRuby 6 months ago
VERY good video, it matched up well. Jesus said he will come at the last trump and in revelation the last trumpet blows and here comes jesus... It happened at the last one. I dont understand where people pull the "rapture" out of any time before this. Jesus continually said after this, and after that, THEN you will see him coming... Anyway, if anyone can just post verses to back and prove a pre trib rapture please do so thanks
primepua 6 months ago 2
@primepua People like a pre-trib rapture because lets face it....who wants to be beheaded? The greatest revival will come during the greatest trial.
diggadoo12 5 months ago
U think that the wrath of God is only the bowls of wrath
Well, the word wrath is also mention on on revelation 6:17
u cannot say that the wrath of God is only the bowls..
Also, when God got angry at Israel, he always sent judgment at them.. Judgment from God is also wrath..
Just because the seals doesn't mention the word wrath, it don't mean is not wrath
Because the trumpets are wrath, and the bowls are wrath, so the seals have to be wrath too.
read 2 thess 1
and 2 thess 2
Read it carfully
iamthebest6367 6 months ago
sorry but those are two diffrent trumpets
the Trump paul wrote is a church gathering trump the trump of god
is not the 7 in rev
GYPSYKNOWINGTHETRUTH 6 months ago
one rebuttal..........................revelation 17;8..................those whose names are not inthe book of life marveled at the beast!......................I wish you people would quit preaching doom and gloom!....really!.......post trib is doom and gloom and it is a lie!............and how do you preach hope to people when you dont have any hope yourself!
inDpendant 6 months ago
@eddie
I know whom I have believed
& am persuaded
that He is able
to keep that which He has committed
to me
against that Day!
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
Go see what the Bible says about the accuser of the brethren and slander.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
You have not proven that Israel & the Church are the same. In fact Rom 11 clearly distinguishes Israel as a different group. You are illogical claiming that to be elect means the Church. There are elect angels, not in the Church, whose sins were not atoned for on the cross. The Church is elect, but the elect is MORE THAN the Church (other groups).
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
There is no Rapture in Joel 2:32f.
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as YHWH hath said, and among the remnant those whom YHWH doth call. For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem..."
No Church involved. This has to do with entering the Millennial Kingdom on earth.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
BDAG:
"χρόνος, ου, ὁ (Hom.+) 1. an indefinite period of time during which some activity or event takes place, time, period of time."
Plural = periods of time.
What is your proof that it cannot begin with one event?
Ur verse does not prove your theory.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
what is your proof that restoration does not begin with an event? What makes you think that restoration must be an instantaneous event. If it were instantaneous, why the plural times. Times implies it is not instantaneous.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
The word dechomai does not mean imprison.
What leads you to think that if you receive a guest for a period of time in a home, the guest may not go in & out?
Thunkful2 6 months ago
Thunkful2 6 months ago
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Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
What does lambano have to do with this?
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
Your theory requires proof of 2 things. Let's see you prove them.
1) you have to prove that "receive" into a home implies imprisonment so that one cannot come and go.
2) times of restoration cannot start with a pre-Trib Rapture.
You have failed to make your case thus far. Quoting strong proves nothing. But if you want to check a word, go to Greek Lexicon BDAG, the standard NT koine Lexicon (Bauer-Danker-Ardnt-Gingrich).
Thunkful2 6 months ago
Perfect love casts out fear. Love is the fruit of the Holy Spirit; since I became a child of God I have been enabled even to love my enemies & those who revile me.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
The expression is plural "times." Mat 24 has a post-trib coming of Christ, but it does not have any Rapture nor any Church -- it is Israel & the nations there. What ensues is the Kingdom after the Sheep & Goat judgment of Mat 25. Now who are these sheep who enter the Kingdom with unglorified bodies if they were all just taken up by Christ at the Rapture?
your so is incorrect. Mat 24 is not about the Rapture of any Church, which 1 Thes 4 is about. 1 Thes 5 has the trib.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
"until the times of restoration of all things" How do you know that the pre-trib rapture is not the start of the Times of the Restoration of all things?"
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie Acts 3:21 says nothing about an inability of Christ to go places. I must receive the mailman until the US stops delivering mail. But he does not stay at my home all the time. You are confusing receiving with staying.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
John 14 HEAVEN = the Father's House
2 In my Father’s house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I COME AGAIN and will receive you to myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Thunkful2 6 months ago
PROOF IS LACKING THAT "DAY OF YHWH" OR "DAY OF THE LORD" means either Rapture or Christ's coming to earth.
Read the many refs I posted below on Day of the Lord. In not a one of them is DotL equated with Rapture or Christ's coming to earth.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
The coming of Christ in to a meeting with the Church in the air does not reach earth either, so far as what is said in the passage.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
"Two second comings"
I am not aware of "second coming" even occurirng even once in the Bible. So that is a non-issue. It is a logical fallacy to say that becs the Bible says there is a "2nd coming," then the Rapture cannot be Christ coming for the Church pre-trib. The fallacy is your assumption of "2nd coming" as a Biblical phrase. There is a 2nd appearing in Hebrews. Heb doesn't say no 3rd appearing or whether it is all counted as 2nd. How u number comings or appearances proves nothing
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
Neither I nor my friends have started falsely marking your postings as spam. It is very childish to mark posts as spam because you don't agree with them or hate the poster. How would you like having 20 people marking all your posts as spam when they are not spam? I intend to address the issues; one of which is your salvation or lack of it.
Thunkful2 6 months ago 8
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@eddienickels1
you mark postings as spam which are not repetitive nor sent to multiple addresses, what does that make you?
The "spam" button is not for sore-losers in debates who can't refute the postings.
You give evidence of not being a born again Christian. If you trust Christ as your Savior it helps the understanding a lot.
Thunkful 6 months ago 7
@eddie
The need for the questions is to know what your basic problem is. You don't come across as a brother in the Lord who simply disagrees with me on eschatology, but as a hateful accuser of the brethren. I don't pass judgment on you, I merely ask the question.
Thunkful2 6 months ago 8
@eddie
I have seen no evidence that you are a Christian.
I haven't seen any definitive answer as to who the Lord Jesus is,
nor where you say you would go if you died tonight.
Is the Lord Jesus God the Son, 2nd person of the Trinity, both God & man (& not angel)?
Do you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh?
Your tone is so abrasive that your tone alone makes me doubt your salvation.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
Do you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh?
Thunkful2 6 months ago 8
THIS VIDEO'S BASIC ERROR: THE RAPTURE IS NOT CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD.
Do a concorance check. You see that it refers to a time of the Lord taking charge particularly w/ punishing judgment. Zeph is the book on the Day of YHWH.
End of 1 Th 4 has Rapture
Start of 1 Th has Day of the Lord, time of trouble.
The Rapture is not a time of trouble or judgment, but the taking of the Church to be w/ Christ; it is a comfort. Jn 14 & Jas 5 refer to the same event without using "rapture."
Thunkful2 6 months ago 9
@Thunkful2 End of 1 Th 4 has rapture, start of 1 Th 5 says BUT of the TIMES AND SEASONS, The times and seasons of what Paul just told them about, the rapture. This is proved by the use of the word BUT connecting 5:1 to the end of chapter 4. So then Paul answers the times and seasons of the rapture question by saying they already know that the day of the Lord comes as a thief. Point and case, the day of the Lord and the rapture are connected. The rapture initiates the day of the Lord.
MSMPOKEY 5 months ago
@MSMPOKEY
The Rapture is one time and one season. "times and seasons" is plural. Thus it is unreasonable to make the two identical. But δὲ is contrastive. How does BUT prove anything that follows is identical with the past? It does not. You have no shred of evidence to make the Day of the Lord = the Rapture. A survey of the instances where the DotL occurs in the Bible should convince you of that, unless u just want to argue with a closed mind & predetermined outcome.
Thunkful2 5 months ago
@MSMPOKEY
You have not one verse that ever says that "The rapture initiates the DotL. The Rapture is a COMFORT, both here & in John 14. The Rapture does not speak of God's wrath on the earth. But the DotL does. Have you actually done a concordance check of the occurrences of The Day of the Lord? Woe to you who desire the Day of the Lord. But the Rapture is not for us to expect as woe, but as comfort.
Thunkful2 5 months ago
Eddie:
Interpreting the departure as literal in 2 Thes 2 is not a requirement of Pre-trib. It is a possibility, supported by the Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon & by usage in the Dormition of Mary. If a word is used once elsewhere in a different sense, it proves nothing about its use elsewhere.
Thunkful 6 months ago
eddie:
John 14 says nothing about any tribulation. So you can't make any time line out of it relative to the tribulation. The word "again" does not specify any number of comings. Did the Lord come for Stephen and to meet Paul? How do you number them?
Thunkful 6 months ago
Rom 11 does not say that Israel is the root or the tree. There were elect persons not in Israel (like Noah) before there was any Israel. The Bible never says that within the elect there are not distinct groups. There are elect angels -- not a part of Israel, not in the Church; a different group within the elect.
Now where would you go if you died today? Who is the Lord Jesus?
Thunkful 6 months ago
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Thunkful2 6 months ago 2
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Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
Another error: The elect are not the same as the Church. Abraham was never part of the Church. It was yet future in Mat 16 "I WILL build." The Church began on Pentecost by the Baptism of the Spirit (Acts 1-2; 1 Cor 12:13). Yet Abe was surely elect.
Before anyone takes in hand to teach on eschatology, he needs to confess who the Lord Jesus is, what the ultimate source of authority is (Bible, not Bible as interpreted by some group), and He needs to trust Christ as Savior.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
Rom 11 never says that the olive tree is Israel. If it were, then how could Israel be broken off as branches from the tree & yet there be a tree? There would be no tree left. The passage makes sense as tree = sphere of God's blessing. But whatever u make of it, the tree is not Israel nor is Israel the Church.
My advice to anyone is to settle first who is the Lord Jesus, what is the ultimate authority, & get saved. Until then one cannot understand.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
To be a Judahite is to be an Israeli. But to be an Israeli is not necessarily to be a Judahite. The Church is elect, but not the only elect. The Church was future in Mat 16 "I will build My Church." Yet saints in the OT were elect & not in the future Church.
"They are not all Israel which are of Israel" Yes, true Israel is restricted to a smaller number, but not expanded to include the Church.
There is not one Bible verse that equates Israel w/ the Church. Rom 9-11 distinguishes
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddienickels
There is no Rapture in the Olivet Discourse & no Church. It is about Israel & the nations (Mat 24-25; Luke 21).
The quote is misleading for leaving out verses. 21:22 refers to the AD 70 Roman destruction of Jeru. 21:25 has moved to signs of Christ's coming back to earth. Neither of these events is called the Rapture; neither involves the Church. Luke's Olivet Discourse differs from Mt's & Mk's by giving additional info on AD 70 & the Times of the Gentiles crossing the Ch age.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
Eddie: Where wud i go?
I would go 2B w/ my precious Savior, the Lord Jesus, God the Son, YHWH, God become man, raised from the dead. For I have trusted Him as my Savior & called on His name.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & u shall be saved."
"whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
I have trusted Christ as Savior. He paid for my sins on the cross. The Lord guarantees me salvation. He is in Heaven, that is where I wud go (absent from the body, present w/ the Lord)
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
"Where wud u go if u died tonight"
Your refusal to answer the question speaks very loud.
However, I have not concluded from this that you are not a Christian & not born-again; neither did I ever say so. It does raise doubt thought.
I'm not afraid to answer it.
You have had enough time to answer now.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@eddie
"talking of" establishes nothing. You must consider what is said. The gathering together in the air (Rapture) is indeed cause to not be worried about the Day of the Lord destruction to come. Moreover, the DotL cannot come before the APOSTASIA (= departure).
Thunkful2 6 months ago
HONEY BEE HAS BEEN MORE THAN CIVIL, SHE HAS BEEN LOVING.
I recognize a fellow member of the Body of Christ.
You don't even answer where you would go if you died tonight. Without settling salvation, there is little point in trying to convert a heretic on a topic of eschatology.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
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Thunkful2 6 months ago
THE DAY OF YHWH [THE LORD] EMPHASIZES DESTRUCTIVE JUDGMENT
The Rapture is about going-home, about comfort.
Thunkful2 6 months ago 10
DotL
"sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of YHWH cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the dawn spread upon the mountains; a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after them, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth:
Thunkful2 6 months ago 9
DotL
let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness.. a great people & a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after them, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and none hath escaped them.
Thunkful2 6 months ago 8
DotL
1 And Jehovah uttereth his voice before his army; for his camp is very great; for he is strong that executeth his word; for the day of Jehovah is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Thunkful2 6 months ago 3
DotL A
And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with lamps; and I will punish the men that are settled on their lees, that say in their heart, Jehovah will not do good, neither will he do evil. 13 And their wealth shall become a spoil, and their houses a desolation: yea, they shall build houses, but shall not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but shall not drink the wine thereof. 14 The great day of Jehovah is near,
Thunkful2 6 months ago 2
DotL B
13 And their wealth shall become a spoil, and their houses a desolation: .. 14 The great day of Jehovah is near, it is near and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of Jehovah; the mighty man crieth there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 a day of the trumpet and alarm, against the fortified cities, and against the high battlements.
Thunkful2 6 months ago 2
DotL C
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is at hand: for Jehovah hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath consecrated his guests. 8 And it shall come to pass in the day of Jehovah’s sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s sons, and all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. 9 And in that day I will punish all those that leap over the threshold, that fill their master’s house with violence and deceit.
Thunkful2 6 months ago 2
DotL D
Enter not into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, look not thou on their affliction in the day of their calamity, neither lay ye hands on their substance in the day of their calamity. 14 And stand thou not in the crossway, to cut off those of his that escape; and deliver not up those of his that remain in the day of distress. 15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations:
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL E
15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee; thy dealing shall return upon thine own head. 16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the nations drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and swallow down, and shall be as though they had not been.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL F
Therefore thus saith Jehovah, the God of hosts, the Lord: Wailing shall be in all the broad ways; and they shall say in all the streets, Alas! Alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful in lamentation to wailing. 17 And in all vineyards shall be wailing; for I will pass through the midst of thee, saith Jehovah. 18 Woe unto you that desire the day of Jehovah! Wherefore would ye have the day of Jehovah?
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL G
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of Jehovah! Wherefore would ye have the day of Jehovah? It is darkness, and not light. 19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. 20 Shall not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL G
12 Let the nations bestir themselves, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle; for the harvest is ripe: come, tread ye; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL H 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. 16 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL J
Go up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men go forth: Cush and Put, that handle the shield; and the Ludim, that handle and bend the bow. 10 For that day is a day of the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour and be satiate, and shall drink its fill of their blood; for the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL K And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
DotL L
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:
Thunkful2 6 months ago
Dot M
The Lord when He comes for the Church is not said to come as a thief.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
THE DotL is NOT AT HAND,
THE RAPTURE IS AT HAND
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the Day of the Lord is just at hand; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the APOSTASIA come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"
Thunkful2 6 months ago