Fink is full of shite with the reservations issue. Clinton's book said the Israelis had reservations but accepted the proposal within his parameters. It is in Clinton's book - My Life. He said Arafat didn't and he blamed Arafat for him(Clinton) being a failure.
could someone answer a question? does norman finkelstein have an accent? english is not my first language, so im not shure wheter the way he pronounces words like "law" are unusual. maybe because his parents came from poland?
@Zatzzo He has a typical brooklyn anglo-judaic accent. Kinda like Kyles mom from south park. And I know I'm gonna be trolled for this statement, so for pre-emptive damage control I am just going to say that I can't think of any other examples of persons with an accent such as Prof. Finkelstein does. I highly appreciate his work.
@herbivore007 I have the same feeling about his accent and I have a great respect and admiration for the man! Kyle's mum isn't so bad, I mean... Well, she is. No matter.
@vcz11 We have two in the world. The International Court of Justice(sometimes referred to as 'World Court') and International Criminal Court. Obviously formed so that nations don't settle disputes privately. Complain if you want, at least you know what happens. Without them you wouldn't without declassification.
Ben Ami..."When you have to settle differences that have to do with subjectivity, you can't necessarily do it based in law"....hmmmm ok, sounds like he is saying that you can disregard the law if it doesn't suit your agenda.
Religious elements want to see the destruction of Israel, secular elements want to see compliance with international law. Secular threats go away when Israel comes into compliance and in all probability would even diminish some of the Islamist threats. You haven't given one single bit of evidence for anything. You just keep saying Israel will be destroyed. Israel could just as easily be destroyed with it's illegal territories. Israel could petition for sanctions and no-fly zones if it were legal
This is getting silly. I say I would support Israel if they give up their illegal claims and you say "if there's any Israel left". How are they going to be destroyed as a country if they come into compliance. I have asked you that several times and you refuse to give me an answer. And yes there is intl law. There have been multiple rulings on the issue and intl law is exactly why Israel doesn't just nuke all it's neighbors.
I can't speak for anyone but myself. I want to see a flourishing, safe, law-abiding Israel, I honestly do. I want Israel to be safe. I think alot of those threats would diminish (certainly not all) if they would come into compliance with intl law. And I want to see a democratic state for Palestinians so that they may conduct their own affairs.. If the Palestinians or any other country still acts belligerent towards a lawful Israel afterwards, I will denounce their actions and stand with Israel.
@senortonyful "I think alot of those threats would diminish (certainly not all) if they would come into compliance with intl law"
On what ground? What in hamas or fatah history give you an idea?
"If the Palestinians or any other country still acts belligerent towards a lawful Israel afterwards, I will denounce their actions and stand with Israel"
If any Israel left afterward.
"That still doesn't explain why we can't support intl law and a democratic Palestinian state"
You're completely correct. All those issues exacerbate the issue. Honestly, if it weren't for British colonialism there probably wouldn't be an Israel. The land would be owned by neighboring Arabic countries. I'm aware of all the peripheral issues and I am fervent in my denunciation of Islam in general and not just radical elements. The quaran is a hate filled book. Russia does have oil interests there. That still doesn't explain why we can't support intl law and a democratic Palestinian state.
A good portion of our defense help is in armaments, such as the Apache Helicopter. Israel has one of the strongest air forces in the world, because they all our equipment. One of the declared purposes of the U.S fleet in the area is to face off Iran and their threat to U.S ally Israel. like our involvement in Iraq in part due to his firing of missiles into Israel. Either way, how does annexing Palestinian land, torturing, and building settlements help their safety. It only exacerbates the issue.
As far as the international organizations are concerned, I can't give you a specific source. Certainly the U.S would help, we help already and it seems to be enough help. I would assume that if Israel came into compliance with international law and was under attack, as a major western power they would more than likely receive assistance. That is purely speculation but it seems very plausible. Either way they have the U.S.
I never said NO threat. No one says NO threat. Certainly a reduced threat though. The Islamist's would really be the only one's left threatening Israel. Now I can't believe that you said no western country helps or would help protect Israel when the U.S gives about $3billion a year in military funding alone and has a fleet of naval ships permanently in the area to face off the threat of Iran.
3B from US help Israel to keep edge but ultimately Israel safety is responsibility of Israel itself and all open war Israel won on its own. In fact reliance on US help and equipment almost cost Israel existence in 73
US keep fleet for its own needs and has nothing to do with Israel.
BTW military spending of SA alone about 40B and most of comes from who else but US.
You seem to be confusing things. The issue is not Israel's treatment of the Arab League, it's Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Palestinian lands were also occupied by Lebanon, Egypt and Syria, but the Palestinians were not the nationality of those countries. Israel's issues with the Arab League is a separate matter, we're talking about Israel's treatment of a stateless, oppressed people. If Israel wants more safety it should give up it's illegal claims. That's the big problem.
So if Israeli retreat to 67 borders and comply with legality to the letter there will be peace in land and no any threat to Israel..... how do you know?
All FACTS point out on different outcome.
Fact is UN nor any west countries had not been useful in anyway as guaranty of Israel safety. Its the fact.
Here an illustration of what happen when Israeli put down arm and rely on law to protect them - "Ramallah Lynch"
@senortonyful "Israel's issues with the Arab League is a separate matter, we're talking about Israel's treatment of a stateless, oppressed people"
By narrow your point of view to this level you missing whole picture and its wrong way to judge international affair.
Gaza is nothing more then Syria/Iran proxy in war against Israel. That's the fact. Russia is still big player in region. By keeping region "hot" they sell weapon and keep oil prices high.
@Greywind30 Elements of Hamas and other Palestinian leadership organizations are controlled by Syria/Iran. One of the biggest problems with the Palestinian argument is a lack of true representation. The PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah are not the best negotiating partners. They, like many other govts, do not act in accordance with their peoples interests.
@senortonyful "One of the biggest problems with the Palestinian argument is a lack of true representation"
It seems to me you concentrating you attention on symptoms without addressing root issues
Root issue of ME conflict is neglect approach of world powers, criminal colonial policies of Brits, imperial ambitions of old Soviet Union and criminal greed of new Russia. OIL OIL OIL.
But worse part of problem ambition of Islam as world religion and factual pathetic status.
And still Israel won. The issue today however has nothing to do with soviets. The issue today is quite simple really. Comply with international law. The U.S gives Israel in direct and indirect funding @ $6billion nearly half of which is military. Israel is the regional super power. The only real threat in the region is islamists and Iran. There are however other secular threats. Many, not all, of those threats would go away if Israel fell into compliance and allowed Palestine their own state.
Islamonazi here invented a nice trick for morons. It is not tiny Israel against huge alliance of arab/muslims but Huge bully Israel against tiny gaza.
But here undeniable facts. Whole Muslim world was involved in this war. WHOLE FUCKING MUSLIM WORLD. Even Turkey with stupid flotilla.
Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, SA, Syria send armies. Every arab state send support. Pakistan send plains and pilots rest help with money, logistic terrorist and political support. On top of this you had Soviets
@Greywind30 And Israel had the U.S and, obviously, they won. Israel is not following the law. I feel quite confident, as should Israel due to tacit agreements amongst members of the E.U and NATO, that if Israel were to come into full compliance with international law, they would enjoy certain guarantees of their safety. 99.9% of countries and Finkelstein, do not want to see Israel destroyed. If Israel gave up all illegal claims and allowed a Pale state the intl community would protect them.
Jordan annex WB+Jerusalem and Egypt for all practical reason annex Gaza
blueray1969: "powerful state (Israel) mistreats a very weak neighbour"
Its absurd. You downgrade whole conflict to Israel vs Gaza? For goodness sake it is 60yr conflict that involved half of the world with battles rival only by WW2! Do you know that 2nd larges tank battle was fought in ME? It is not Israel vs Hamas. Gazan are just a pawn. Sacrificial pawn.
I think as part of the agreement, if Israel makes the reasonable concessions asked for by the Palestinians an International Peace Keeping force should be deployed to the area for a set number of years. I completely agree with and understand the fears of those that worry for Israels safety in any event. I feel quite certain that Israel would receive an outpouring of International support in the event they did so. I would be the first to lobby for some guarantees of their safety.
You are very reasonable person. I totally understand your point of view but you making assumptions based on logic, honor and civility. Unfortunately this logic does not apply to medieval kings, clerics, bloody dictators and worse of all brainwashed masses.
Even western democracies act based on self interest and not on law and honor.
I will be the first to concede that the Palestinians need a reasonable, secular leadership. I don't think the extremism exhibited by the likes of Arafat, Hamas and Hezbollah are representative of the majority of the populous. The reason for that is debatable. The Palestinians have let it be known that they are willing to make concessions on the actual border but the onus is on Israel. I would hate to see the concessions made and then have Israel attacked. That can not happen.
I hate to defend Arafat, I think he lost a lot of credibility for the Palestinian movement. The proposal was rejected mainly because Israel would not relinquish Jerusalem and Israel rejected the Palestinians right of return. Israel acquired Jerusalem through warfare, the World Court deemed Jerusalem to be "occupied Palestinian territory. The Palestinians won't accept an agreement if they can't have THEIR land back.
I agree with you about the nefarious nature of Arab and Islamic regimes. I denounce illegal acts by any country with equal fervor. Once the illicit behavior is accepted there only defense is the one you've stated that they must break the rules since others break the rules. I speak for myself when I say that if Israel came into compliance with Intl. Law I would fully support any defense measures they would take against Arab aggression. I would also support the U.S sending troops to help Israel
"I would fully support any defense measures they would take against Arab aggression. I would also support the U.S sending troops to help Israel"
To help Israel or to clean up corpses?
Israel as it is a "glass cannon" Country so tiny it is MIRACULOUS how they survived. Put the best army in limited space where they dont have place to spread troops and they are dead.
Considering "nefarious nature of Arab and Islamic regimes" there is no way of return to 67 borders
On the issue of the partition I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about recent peace negotiations. Of course, there are certain aspects of the population that claim sole ownership of all of Israel (and their claim isn't entirely unreasonable) though it is not generally excepted. What I said was that in the past 20 years Israel has offered less than was required of them by International Law. Unless the Pali's accept less Israel is required to give back all post 67 land.
"The original partition was not accepted because it fell far short of what was required by international law."
I have no idea where did u get it. Original plan was not excepted for very simple reason. Local Arabs consider themselves sole owner of the land and did not want to share with jews or be minority. Egypt and Jordan wanted more land and the rest just wanted actions.
Remember we are taking about 1948. World power move around TENS of MILLIONS people sometimes without any justification.
2 Law is for everyone or nobody. Arabs acquired land by force. Jordan officially annex WB and Egypt for all practical reason did same with Gaza. They also attempt to take whole of Israel. For 20 yr nobody said a word about it why Israel should be judge differently?
3.Original partition could exist only on condition both sides agree to it. Jews accept it and Arabs reject it. The end
@Greywind30 Yes and when Arab countries annex territory it is also illegal. Just because Arab countries do something illegal doesn't mean Israel can. The original partition was not accepted because it fell far short of what was required by international law. That's why the Palestinians rejected it. It was not a fair partition. The Palestinians are willing to make concessions but the burden falls on Israel since they are the occupiers. They should present an agreement that's acceptable. The End.
"Just because Arab countries do something illegal doesn't mean Israel can"
I can see your point and it apply without doubt to us as individuals BUT...
Again international law apply to all or nobody.
For decades Arabs with help and cover from Soviets and Muslim countries ignore every written and unwritten law of war. They use every underhanded/dirty trick against jews. World wide terror, war of attrition, oil war, suicide bombing etc.
@senortony1111 "The original partition was not accepted because it fell far short of what was required by international law"
Where did you get this idea? Arabs reject it for very simple reasons. Locals consider themselves sole owners of land. Egypt and Jordan wanted more land and power and rest want some action.
Nothing to do with "required by international law"
Israel propose peace that US deemed fair and acceptable and Arafat reject it.
This is one of the few videos/interviews where Finklestein is actually given some leeway to articulate what (in retrospect) is not really that controversial. Its only controversial if your not paying precise detailed attention to the conflict and said negotiations. Its good to watch.
ah the truth hurts doesn't it Israel......as much as you try to distort and cover it up....thank God for honest, brave, and scholarly men such as Flinkelstein who present facts rather than distortions.....
[After watching the Finkelstein-Dershowitz debate] It's so nice to hear from Finkelstein has to say when he can talk at length without being interrupted.
[After watching the Finkelstein-Dershowitz debate] It's so nice to hear from Finkelstein has to say when he can talk at length without being interrupted.
NF: "Both sides excepted Clinton parameters with some reservations"
Typical misleading half true in best traditions of Goebbels. Here what Pr. Clintons says in "Clinton on Israel-Palestine" /watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y
NF is one twisted "feel good" useful moron. Simple truth of Israeli Arab conflict is
Two state as it was offered originally was possible only if both sides agreed. Arabs rejected it and attack jews. This killed original plan. Law apply to everyone or nobody.
Yes. Jews always had a communities there. First census in 1840 show 1/3 of Jerusalem were jews.
One of the first things Jordanian did when they took Jerusalem was denigrating and destroying jewish cemetery and synagogues. Cemetery on mount Olive was over 2500 yr old. 48 synagogues some hundreds yr old.
Yes jews have been in this location. and they are actual original inhabitant
...except that even in the Jewish religious texts, Jews fought the original original inhabitants ¨(Canaanites and co.) for the land. i never said Jews didn't have communities there. there were also Christians, and a lot more Palestinians. again, more excuses for mistreating the Palestinians, and a total lack of heart for the Palestinians, their right to self-determination, their regugees. Just keep appealing to "God gave us the land" and religious texts.
@the81kid "excuses for mistreating the Palestinians, and a total lack of heart for the Palestinians, their right to self-determination, their regugees"
Do you realize that Arabs own whole "Palestine" for two decades but did not give so called Palestinian a iota of self government?
Do you know that arabs actually kill more so called palestinian then Israeli?
Do you know that arabs throw away and robe blind about same number of jews?
They ownED whole Palestine for decades (when exactly was that? but for arguments sake, lets consider you are correct): that's your excuse for mistreating them?! you have no arguments, only distraction and name-calling.
@the81kid "that's your excuse for mistreating them?! you have no arguments, only distraction and name-calling"
Excuse? Constant shelling is excuse? Keeping PoW without letting International organization inspection excuse?
Enemy of Israel do not adhere to any rules. They every and any underhanded tactics terror, trade war, war of attrition, blockade and in fact reject any peace offering. In fact they dig tunnel to capture Israeli soldier while talking about peace.
"Enemy of Israel do not adhere to any rules. They every and any underhanded tactics terror, trade war, war of attrition, blockade and in fact reject any peace offering. In fact they dig tunnel to capture Israeli soldier while talking about peace."
You have point-by-point described the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Except "dig a tunnel" - Israel just goes in (in to the West Bank too) with tanks and cars. And last time I checked, taking a soldier prisoner in war is not illegal.
@the81kid "And last time I checked, taking a soldier prisoner in war is not illegal" Sure it is not "illegal" in more way then one and I did not imply it's "illegal"
Let me quote myself "Keeping PoW without letting International organization inspection"
You capture uniform soldier and its fine (during war) but treat him by Geneva conv.
Even if Israel does whatever was done to it (for argument sake) its justified. After enduring 60 yr of non stop terror Israeli entitle to finish by any means
"After enduring 60 yr of non stop terror Israeli entitle to finish by any means " - the Palestinians have been enduring oppression, refugees have been forced from their homes, civilians killed (300 children killed in Gaza in one "war") for that exact same time, since their own lands were taken and became israel. the thief calls the land's owner names. Again, you ignore the oppressed people, forced from their own land.
@Greywind30 whether they do or don't, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Israel is breaking international law. If they stop doing so, they would have a better position to defend against anti-Semites. I am not a Zionist and I am not an anti-Semite. When a very powerful state (Israel) mistreats a very weak neighbour, even if some citizens of the neighbouring state are anti-Semites and terrorists, that powerful state is still acting illegally.
Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
The very fact that Ben-Ami admits that it's "almost impossible to do things on the basis of international law" and that the reason that the Palestinians were willing to make concessions is because they recognized that illustrates the problem. Technically, it should not be "impossible" to enforce the law, but that's the approach that Israel, in disregarding the law, has: Who cares if its impermissible to acquire territory by war? We have it now and we'll do as we please.
Nice to see Norman smiling here. He doesn't smile much anymore. I guess having Douchewitz (sociopath) ruin his career and his life is a bit of a downer.
@pazomblez The Illinois Conference of the American Association of University Professors also sent a letter to the university’s president stating: "It is entirely illegitimate for a university to deny tenure to a professor out of fear that his published research … might hurt a college’s reputation" and that the association has "explicitly rejected collegiality as an appropriate criterion for evaluating faculty members"
@pazomblez IDIOT..it makes no difference If your head was stuck up his ass..HE DID NOT GET HIS TENURE BECAUSE HE IS A JEW EXPOSING JEWRY.. Don't you get it?
@CMTours732 Are you saying the US is NOT a Jew run society? And have you looked up the definition of "Anti-Semite" ? Being ARABIC myself makes ME a SEMITE.. People tend to have their heads up their asses when it comes to the definition of what a SEMITE is
@CMTours732 I am amused when people use the term anti-semitic to mean anti jew. What does "semetic" mean? It does not exclusively mean jewish. There are semites in Egypt, Jordan, Ethiopia. The term semite refers to a range of aincient african-asiatic languages which includes both Hebrew and Arabic. Therefore both Jews and Arabs are semites. A jew cannot legitimately call an arab anti-semetic as they are both semites.
@pazomblez Dr. Frank Menetrez, a former Editor-in-Chief of the UCLA Law Review, published an analysis of the charges made against Finkelstein by Alan Dershowitz, finding no merit in any single charge, and that, on the contrary, "Dershowitz is deliberately misrepresenting what Finkelstein wrote".
It's surprising that people still have peace talks, this peace talks have been from a point of weakness on the part of the ARABS, the Israelis have no intentions of any peace deals with any group of Arabs as long as they have American support. Free weapons and money. America is Bankrupt the question is will they continue to support this illegal occupation at their expence.
Israelis have no right what so ever to be in Palestine, this was an invention under the Belford decleartion, engineered by Hertzle and excuted by Winston Churchil. They have used the Bible to Justify them having a state, which was written into the bible by the Warburgs Banking family. They were the Leaman Bros which was allowed to fold in the Banking Crisis.
Speaking of International law, it does not seem to apply to Israel and America. They invade other countries and are surprised that people are willing to defend themselves. It's no surprise to me, because if I lived in a country that was attacked, I would do my best to defend my country. America is big enough to intergrate the people in Israel intside America.
Finklestein provides facts out of context and violates the definition of truth. his oration is fluid but his values are corrupt. if he can defend a group like hizzbola and foment for war with Israel in the arab media than he's disqualified as a source of reliable information.
@wrldeye12: Why is Hizzbola Corrupt, because they believe in self defence, what if no one fought HITLER, because that is what Israel is it's a Nazi state. Israel is doing exactly what Hitler was doing in Europe. I really don't care about peoples ethnic make up, it's about right and wrong. The Israeli ideology is worse than that of Hizzbolah, because they only act to defend their country.
@maria610421 BS. Anyone comparing Israel to the nazi Reich is very morally confused. hizzbolas 'self defense' to "fight the Jews where you may find them" is nazism within the Arab world. Odd the central theme of hitler to destroy Jews is the same as hizzbolas, no? Odd the majority of the Arab world supported hitler during WW2? Such strange coincidences eh? The Israeli ideology of self defense in a sea of jew hating mullahs is far more believable than the vast arab majority of "self defense."
@wrldeye12: I disagree, because it's Israel who is behind all the attacks in the Arab world, including the 2006 attacls on Lebanon, what did you think Hizzbolah was going to do?. You attack my country I'll attack yours, it's simple common sense. Israel is planning to attack Syria, and Lebanon, who supply the weapons America. How can you find peace, with stupid foreign policies like that.
@maria610421 Your statement "Israel is behind all the attacks in the Arab world" is both incorrect and nonsensical. I suppose Israel is behind all the sunni/shia mosque and market homicide bombs huh? hizzbola clearly attacked Israel in 2006 with mortars and then attacked soldiers, abducting two only to return their body parts. You are deluded Maria, you're defending the losing and truly evil team. Good luck 2 u in the next war.
@maria610421 you seem to ignore the fact that the first israeli invasion into lebanon was because of palestinian groups initiating terror actions against israel form withtin lebanon, and thats also what finkelstein consistently does.
@ImTehWord: Israel is the agressor, I am not brainwashed by the media, I am able to think rationally, the people in Gaza have no army and are constantly under attack, by the Israelis, constantly having their homes destroyed, by the Israelis, the Israelis are a Group of NAZIS from Germany and should go back there, in my opinion.
@ImTehWord: You think your opinion matters, well sorry to tell you, you even matter less, becvause you are nothing but garbage, to be used to die for the rich elite who would not piss on you if you were on fire. Grow up and get a life.
@ImTehWord you are a mook - the ISRAEL STATE was born out of terrorism - you are so ignorant - google the Lavon affair - google Israel terror - get educated and know your history,ISRAEL USED TERRORISM TO GET WHAT THEY WANTED ! ! ! !
@BrimstoneAlpha not really, israel was born out of a un decision, which was rejected by the palestinians and led to the palestinians declaring war on israel right after.
so if we really wanna tell what happened, i guess we have to say that israel was borned out of self defence.
@cgeorgak -- really? there's no such thing as a hoosier (who merely RESIDES in indiana)? a buckeye (who merely RESIDES in ohio)? and no such thing as palestinians who RESIDE/RESIDED in mapped, 2000 yr old place called PALESTINE?
please dont denagrade ben ami, even though he is somewhat wrong, he stil accepts that what israel is doing to palestine is wrong. i think that finkelstein is under the impression that everyone he debates is dershowitz lol. shlomo ben ami, is a great person. it i sad that he gets attacked socially by many israelis for his difference in opinion from standard israeli hatred torward another culture.
the main diff. is that Fink. has read Shlomo´s books and can quote them in his favor while Shlomo must have been so busy "learning" Eng that he skipped reading Fink´s.
Jerusalem is by far the holiest place in Judaism. The Al Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam, yet there is zero mention of Jerusalem "Al Quds" in the Qu'ran. In fact Muslim armies have destroyed Jerusalem on mutiple occasions. Why would they do that to their 3rd holiest site? Makes you wonder.
@karey26 What does it make you wonder? That they are savages and dont deserve jerusalem?? You cant argue with facts put forward by Finkelstein, he is absolutely correct in everything he says. Im sure you disagree because you come out with shit which has nothing to do with the legal standing of the conflict.What Israel has done and continues to do is against international law. If any other arab country behaved the same way as Israel they would have been invaded long ago.
@karey26 Muslims believe that it is Jerusalem that Muhammad visited during his night journey. The event of Isra' and Mi'raj is mentioned in the Quran, in the first verse of Chapter 17 entitled 'The Children of Israel.
"Glory to God, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things." (Qur'an 17:1)
@karey26 Not only did Muslim armies NOT destroy Jerusalem, they liberated it to allow Jewish worshipers to enter (they had been expelled by the Christians), and pardoned soldiers who did not put up a fight. When Caliph Omar conquered the city he was invited to worship at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. As a mark of respect he declined, anticipating (correctly) that Muslims would want to build a mosque where he prayed. So he prayed some distance away (where a mosque was built later)
@gomobo2232 I totally agree. At least the Jews have souls & conscience to admit their crimes. Unfortunately, the chinese scums, the worst racists in the world, are still occupying Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, East Turkistan, Russian Siberian land, Vietnamese lands & islands & Korean islands.
Israelis could agree on the west bank ,Gaza and jerusalem but no Israeli will agree that 6 million Arabs will come in too Israel BC this will be the end of Israel this is not a fair solution. in 1948 there were about 250,000 Arabs in Israel today BC the world kept them and their families as refugees we are talking about 6 million. Israel is a country the size of NJ . so yes the international law is unfair and that is why we will always fight it
good BC finklastin is the king of Palestine right?
I been living this conflict all my life and never heard anyone say this or any Palestinian agree to that
if the solution is a two state solution ( and it is) why sending Palestinians to Israel and not to Palestine any ways? and the biggest question why keeping 4 generation of people as refugees Arab people that was born in Jordon and lebanon . and at the same time taking the refugee status from the Jews even thou the conflict is still going on
Who said he was the king? He just states the solution the Palestinians have agreed to.
If the solution is a two state solution then why don't the Israeli government do more to make it work? They do everything to stop it from working, the citizens of the fake state that is israel should be ashamed of themselves for the atrocities committed by their elected governments, the whole thing is a disgrace.
and again you just proved Norman finkelstein wrong... I share the same wishful thinking of Norman finkelstein , but as you can see all of these debate are between one Jew to another Jew one Israeli to another Israeli or American. never ever we see Henia or any palestinian leader here talking about solutions. we are not the kings of the Palestinians we can wish that the Palestinians wants peace but as you said most Arabs thinks Israel is a fake state that should not exist
I never said most Arabs think Israel is a fake state that should not exist, I don't know what most Arabs think, you should read my responses more carefully.
In my opinion Israel is a fake state, fake because it is based upon stolen land/ property and the terrorism of the indigenous population, the history of the so called State of Israel is a master class in murder and terrorism, it's a disgrace, the Zionist movement is a joke.
well that's at the very most your uneducated opinion.
its not the international community views . the international community since 1948 is talking about a two states solution . Norman finklstine argue that the Palestinians accepts that . I am saying that when the Palestinians will have a unified government that will stand up at say that officially to the Israeli people that is the day we will have peace. and if you don't know what the most Arabs thinks why are you here anyway
How is it my uneducated opinion? You speak as if you know me when clearly you don't.
I'm not allowed to be here unless I know what most Arabs think?
I make arguments based on the facts, you obvioulsy don't and no doubt get your "facts" from the mainstream media or other unreliable sources, I feel sorry for ignorant people like you.
Your arguments are ridiculous and this dialogue is turning into a farce, if you don't have intelligent arguments to make then we should leave it like this.
I am using finkelsin argument about the international law.
you are saying Israel is a stolen land which is a lie according to the international law. the international law recognize Israel in the 1967 borders.
I only saying that i never heard a Palestinian leader that is talking in the name of most Palestinians people that says what finklstin say. and when it will happen this is the day we will have peace
Don't let this moron fool you. He's doing this as part of his job with the JIDF which is part of the Israeli hasbara service. Israel as a Zionist ideology was condemned as racist by a UN resolution in 1975. That should say enough about what we are dealing with here. Israel's official public statements don't match the practice on the ground and don't even come close to what they say in private. The reason is very obvious to those in the know:the Zionist project is to occupy all the Middle East.
DofaDofah you can't create a state where people live because it is promised in writing from 1000s of years ago. And who the fuck cares if there was artifacts so in leu of that argument England should take back all of its colonies since there was no ancient artifacts proving there existence there was no acient ugandan zambian or any others. Your argument is mut the Palistinians should have the land that was stolen from them back.
Finkelstein strikes me as being really nitpicky, as if playing a game of "gotcha." He makes a big deal about how Ben Ami underestimates the Israeli reservations to the agreement by calling them "a few pages of reservations" when in fact there were "ten pages of reservations." After Ben Ami (who after all took part in the negotiations) explains the contents of the ten page letter in the next segment, Finkelstein's criticism appears even more trivial.
Jerusalem is "occupied" from Jordan (wich gave it up) and Jordan occupied it before .... mr.Finkelstein forgets , that there NEVER was country "Palestine" and there no nation called "Palestinians" ....
You are just saying you know better than the World Court. In domestic law I may "give up" my car to someone who steals it, because I have no choice, no ability to get it back but the thief is not the legal owner of it. The modern idea of international law extends this to relations between states - it is illegal to take territory by war and treat it as your own. Ideas may have been different 100s of years ago, that this is irrelevant - times have changed.
Realy - so why don't we say to Russia give up some islands to Japan and some other things taken from western europe? Or should US may be give up Alaska back to Russia? - Worlds oldest tradition is taliking about jews and how bad they are ... and after that chit - chat usually ends up with a pogrom .... Your liberal bullshit and law keeping is usually kept for athers and those athers are usually smaller in their number ........
I did not talled You to beleive in god - I referred you to it for a different reason - AND YOU KNOW WICH ....
Word palestinian is from ancient HEBREW's "plishtin" - wich comes from word "plisha" - INVASION .... Go to Jerusalem and see clear evidence of who was there and who was not ...resent digging under " temple mountain " - caused a big riots among local muslims -but nobody supported them - Jerusalem not mentioned in coran even ones ... So keep your bullshit to your arab fanatic friends!
Your understanding is sux and your ignorance is incredible - by quran - I just gave example of how your lovely arabs stick it in every issue to take more land and say "it is historically" ours ... or "allah is the only god - you will convert or die" - You made no pint by yourself - only LOLing and ather stuff , anyway - there is no point to keep this "converstion"....
my point still stands....and i'm sorry becuase i didn't fit ur streotype of lovely arabs...yes, i don't believe in the Quran nor do i believe in the bible....
I just love how Finkelstein gleefully corrects the omissions in Schlomo's narrative.
obamaramadan 1 day ago
Fink is full of shite with the reservations issue. Clinton's book said the Israelis had reservations but accepted the proposal within his parameters. It is in Clinton's book - My Life. He said Arafat didn't and he blamed Arafat for him(Clinton) being a failure.
hometv1970 1 month ago
Dr. Finkelstein knows that the truth speaks volumes.
OrodesIII 2 months ago
Go Finkelstein !
Bothaynah 3 months ago
could someone answer a question? does norman finkelstein have an accent? english is not my first language, so im not shure wheter the way he pronounces words like "law" are unusual. maybe because his parents came from poland?
Zatzzo 6 months ago
@Zatzzo He has a typical brooklyn anglo-judaic accent. Kinda like Kyles mom from south park. And I know I'm gonna be trolled for this statement, so for pre-emptive damage control I am just going to say that I can't think of any other examples of persons with an accent such as Prof. Finkelstein does. I highly appreciate his work.
herbivore007 6 months ago
@herbivore007
thanks!
Zatzzo 6 months ago
Comment removed
znikacz 5 months ago
@herbivore007 I have the same feeling about his accent and I have a great respect and admiration for the man! Kyle's mum isn't so bad, I mean... Well, she is. No matter.
znikacz 5 months ago
Comment removed
herbivore007 4 months ago
KYYOOOOLEEEE!!! what what WHAAAT!? :P
herbivore007 4 months ago
Finkelstein is being dishonest or is ignorant.
It is true that Israel accepted the parameters with a couple reservations but Arafat's reservations were so large that they in effect rejected them.
According to Bill Clinton:
"Arafat had said he accepted the parameters with reservations. The problem was that his reservations, unlike Israel’s, were outside the parameters"
Pg 946 Bill Clinton My Life (Vintige Books 2005)
hometv1970 6 months ago
THERE IS NOTHING-NOTHING-WORSE THEN HAVING "RUSSIANS-JEWS" LIVING ABOVE YOUR HEAD-THEY ARE THE-WORSE-THE-WORSE-THE-WORSE
src438 7 months ago
Finkelstein is amazing!
Bambam78 8 months ago
so is this an illegal war?
iloveumyra 8 months ago
@iloveumyra all wars are illegal. according to the laws of human behavior.
TheAngryarchangel 7 months ago
We have "World Court"?! I wouldn't give flying fck about any idiotic court which tells my country what it should do.
vcz11 9 months ago
@vcz11 We have two in the world. The International Court of Justice(sometimes referred to as 'World Court') and International Criminal Court. Obviously formed so that nations don't settle disputes privately. Complain if you want, at least you know what happens. Without them you wouldn't without declassification.
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
Ben Ami..."When you have to settle differences that have to do with subjectivity, you can't necessarily do it based in law"....hmmmm ok, sounds like he is saying that you can disregard the law if it doesn't suit your agenda.
JohnnyHorton 9 months ago
Religious elements want to see the destruction of Israel, secular elements want to see compliance with international law. Secular threats go away when Israel comes into compliance and in all probability would even diminish some of the Islamist threats. You haven't given one single bit of evidence for anything. You just keep saying Israel will be destroyed. Israel could just as easily be destroyed with it's illegal territories. Israel could petition for sanctions and no-fly zones if it were legal
senortonyful 10 months ago
This is getting silly. I say I would support Israel if they give up their illegal claims and you say "if there's any Israel left". How are they going to be destroyed as a country if they come into compliance. I have asked you that several times and you refuse to give me an answer. And yes there is intl law. There have been multiple rulings on the issue and intl law is exactly why Israel doesn't just nuke all it's neighbors.
senortonyful 10 months ago
I can't speak for anyone but myself. I want to see a flourishing, safe, law-abiding Israel, I honestly do. I want Israel to be safe. I think alot of those threats would diminish (certainly not all) if they would come into compliance with intl law. And I want to see a democratic state for Palestinians so that they may conduct their own affairs.. If the Palestinians or any other country still acts belligerent towards a lawful Israel afterwards, I will denounce their actions and stand with Israel.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful "I think alot of those threats would diminish (certainly not all) if they would come into compliance with intl law"
On what ground? What in hamas or fatah history give you an idea?
"If the Palestinians or any other country still acts belligerent towards a lawful Israel afterwards, I will denounce their actions and stand with Israel"
If any Israel left afterward.
"That still doesn't explain why we can't support intl law and a democratic Palestinian state"
Because it does not exist
Greywind30 10 months ago
You're completely correct. All those issues exacerbate the issue. Honestly, if it weren't for British colonialism there probably wouldn't be an Israel. The land would be owned by neighboring Arabic countries. I'm aware of all the peripheral issues and I am fervent in my denunciation of Islam in general and not just radical elements. The quaran is a hate filled book. Russia does have oil interests there. That still doesn't explain why we can't support intl law and a democratic Palestinian state.
senortonyful 10 months ago
A good portion of our defense help is in armaments, such as the Apache Helicopter. Israel has one of the strongest air forces in the world, because they all our equipment. One of the declared purposes of the U.S fleet in the area is to face off Iran and their threat to U.S ally Israel. like our involvement in Iraq in part due to his firing of missiles into Israel. Either way, how does annexing Palestinian land, torturing, and building settlements help their safety. It only exacerbates the issue.
senortonyful 10 months ago
As far as the international organizations are concerned, I can't give you a specific source. Certainly the U.S would help, we help already and it seems to be enough help. I would assume that if Israel came into compliance with international law and was under attack, as a major western power they would more than likely receive assistance. That is purely speculation but it seems very plausible. Either way they have the U.S.
senortonyful 10 months ago
I never said NO threat. No one says NO threat. Certainly a reduced threat though. The Islamist's would really be the only one's left threatening Israel. Now I can't believe that you said no western country helps or would help protect Israel when the U.S gives about $3billion a year in military funding alone and has a fleet of naval ships permanently in the area to face off the threat of Iran.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
Israel spending 14B of own money on defense.
3B from US help Israel to keep edge but ultimately Israel safety is responsibility of Israel itself and all open war Israel won on its own. In fact reliance on US help and equipment almost cost Israel existence in 73
US keep fleet for its own needs and has nothing to do with Israel.
BTW military spending of SA alone about 40B and most of comes from who else but US.
Greywind30 10 months ago
You seem to be confusing things. The issue is not Israel's treatment of the Arab League, it's Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Palestinian lands were also occupied by Lebanon, Egypt and Syria, but the Palestinians were not the nationality of those countries. Israel's issues with the Arab League is a separate matter, we're talking about Israel's treatment of a stateless, oppressed people. If Israel wants more safety it should give up it's illegal claims. That's the big problem.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
So if Israeli retreat to 67 borders and comply with legality to the letter there will be peace in land and no any threat to Israel..... how do you know?
All FACTS point out on different outcome.
Fact is UN nor any west countries had not been useful in anyway as guaranty of Israel safety. Its the fact.
Here an illustration of what happen when Israeli put down arm and rely on law to protect them - "Ramallah Lynch"
Greywind30 10 months ago
@senortonyful "Israel's issues with the Arab League is a separate matter, we're talking about Israel's treatment of a stateless, oppressed people"
By narrow your point of view to this level you missing whole picture and its wrong way to judge international affair.
Gaza is nothing more then Syria/Iran proxy in war against Israel. That's the fact. Russia is still big player in region. By keeping region "hot" they sell weapon and keep oil prices high.
Greywind30 10 months ago
@Greywind30 Elements of Hamas and other Palestinian leadership organizations are controlled by Syria/Iran. One of the biggest problems with the Palestinian argument is a lack of true representation. The PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah are not the best negotiating partners. They, like many other govts, do not act in accordance with their peoples interests.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful "One of the biggest problems with the Palestinian argument is a lack of true representation"
It seems to me you concentrating you attention on symptoms without addressing root issues
Root issue of ME conflict is neglect approach of world powers, criminal colonial policies of Brits, imperial ambitions of old Soviet Union and criminal greed of new Russia. OIL OIL OIL.
But worse part of problem ambition of Islam as world religion and factual pathetic status.
Greywind30 10 months ago
And still Israel won. The issue today however has nothing to do with soviets. The issue today is quite simple really. Comply with international law. The U.S gives Israel in direct and indirect funding @ $6billion nearly half of which is military. Israel is the regional super power. The only real threat in the region is islamists and Iran. There are however other secular threats. Many, not all, of those threats would go away if Israel fell into compliance and allowed Palestine their own state.
senortonyful 10 months ago
Islamonazi here invented a nice trick for morons. It is not tiny Israel against huge alliance of arab/muslims but Huge bully Israel against tiny gaza.
But here undeniable facts. Whole Muslim world was involved in this war. WHOLE FUCKING MUSLIM WORLD. Even Turkey with stupid flotilla.
Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, SA, Syria send armies. Every arab state send support. Pakistan send plains and pilots rest help with money, logistic terrorist and political support. On top of this you had Soviets
Greywind30 10 months ago
@Greywind30 And Israel had the U.S and, obviously, they won. Israel is not following the law. I feel quite confident, as should Israel due to tacit agreements amongst members of the E.U and NATO, that if Israel were to come into full compliance with international law, they would enjoy certain guarantees of their safety. 99.9% of countries and Finkelstein, do not want to see Israel destroyed. If Israel gave up all illegal claims and allowed a Pale state the intl community would protect them.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful "And Israel had the U.S"
Did USA send troops to fight for Israel the way Soviet did?
Did USA threaten Arabs with war unless they back off the way Soviet did?
USA supply Israel with weapon AFTER 1967 and give some cover from Soviets. that' it
Dont forget that Soviet Union was at list equal to USA (or better) in weapon.
As for guarantees. Israel is sovereign state and own guarantee. Jews have a very bad experience relying on somebody else for protection.
Greywind30 10 months ago
the81kid: "when exactly was that?"
1948-67
Jordan annex WB+Jerusalem and Egypt for all practical reason annex Gaza
blueray1969: "powerful state (Israel) mistreats a very weak neighbour"
Its absurd. You downgrade whole conflict to Israel vs Gaza? For goodness sake it is 60yr conflict that involved half of the world with battles rival only by WW2! Do you know that 2nd larges tank battle was fought in ME? It is not Israel vs Hamas. Gazan are just a pawn. Sacrificial pawn.
Greywind30 11 months ago
I love how smart Finkelstein is. Know why Israel has banned him from the country for 10 years; they are afraid of him.
mlc2005 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"if Israel makes the reasonable concessions asked for by the Palestinians"
There is no "if" Israel made more then reasonable concession according Clinton.
As for "Peace Keeping force" it is not an option for very good reason.
It have not worked at all in the past.
Nasser in 1967 just ORDER UN force to get out and they run.
UN "forces" in Lebanon were nothing more but human shield for hezbollah.
Fact is UN forces have not done anything at all. Not on ME, not in Serbia etc
Greywind30 11 months ago
I think as part of the agreement, if Israel makes the reasonable concessions asked for by the Palestinians an International Peace Keeping force should be deployed to the area for a set number of years. I completely agree with and understand the fears of those that worry for Israels safety in any event. I feel quite certain that Israel would receive an outpouring of International support in the event they did so. I would be the first to lobby for some guarantees of their safety.
senortony1111 11 months ago
@senortony1111
You are very reasonable person. I totally understand your point of view but you making assumptions based on logic, honor and civility. Unfortunately this logic does not apply to medieval kings, clerics, bloody dictators and worse of all brainwashed masses.
Even western democracies act based on self interest and not on law and honor.
Israel can't count on anyone but own force.
Greywind30 11 months ago
I will be the first to concede that the Palestinians need a reasonable, secular leadership. I don't think the extremism exhibited by the likes of Arafat, Hamas and Hezbollah are representative of the majority of the populous. The reason for that is debatable. The Palestinians have let it be known that they are willing to make concessions on the actual border but the onus is on Israel. I would hate to see the concessions made and then have Israel attacked. That can not happen.
senortony1111 11 months ago
I hate to defend Arafat, I think he lost a lot of credibility for the Palestinian movement. The proposal was rejected mainly because Israel would not relinquish Jerusalem and Israel rejected the Palestinians right of return. Israel acquired Jerusalem through warfare, the World Court deemed Jerusalem to be "occupied Palestinian territory. The Palestinians won't accept an agreement if they can't have THEIR land back.
senortony1111 11 months ago
I agree with you about the nefarious nature of Arab and Islamic regimes. I denounce illegal acts by any country with equal fervor. Once the illicit behavior is accepted there only defense is the one you've stated that they must break the rules since others break the rules. I speak for myself when I say that if Israel came into compliance with Intl. Law I would fully support any defense measures they would take against Arab aggression. I would also support the U.S sending troops to help Israel
senortony1111 11 months ago
@senortony1111
"I would fully support any defense measures they would take against Arab aggression. I would also support the U.S sending troops to help Israel"
To help Israel or to clean up corpses?
Israel as it is a "glass cannon" Country so tiny it is MIRACULOUS how they survived. Put the best army in limited space where they dont have place to spread troops and they are dead.
Considering "nefarious nature of Arab and Islamic regimes" there is no way of return to 67 borders
Greywind30 11 months ago
On the issue of the partition I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about recent peace negotiations. Of course, there are certain aspects of the population that claim sole ownership of all of Israel (and their claim isn't entirely unreasonable) though it is not generally excepted. What I said was that in the past 20 years Israel has offered less than was required of them by International Law. Unless the Pali's accept less Israel is required to give back all post 67 land.
senortony1111 11 months ago
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"The original partition was not accepted because it fell far short of what was required by international law."
I have no idea where did u get it. Original plan was not excepted for very simple reason. Local Arabs consider themselves sole owner of the land and did not want to share with jews or be minority. Egypt and Jordan wanted more land and the rest just wanted actions.
Remember we are taking about 1948. World power move around TENS of MILLIONS people sometimes without any justification.
Greywind30 11 months ago
NF is liar and demagogy. Here is why
1.Here is Clinton testimony /watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y
Its 100% support Ben Ami
2 Law is for everyone or nobody. Arabs acquired land by force. Jordan officially annex WB and Egypt for all practical reason did same with Gaza. They also attempt to take whole of Israel. For 20 yr nobody said a word about it why Israel should be judge differently?
3.Original partition could exist only on condition both sides agree to it. Jews accept it and Arabs reject it. The end
Greywind30 11 months ago
@Greywind30 Yes and when Arab countries annex territory it is also illegal. Just because Arab countries do something illegal doesn't mean Israel can. The original partition was not accepted because it fell far short of what was required by international law. That's why the Palestinians rejected it. It was not a fair partition. The Palestinians are willing to make concessions but the burden falls on Israel since they are the occupiers. They should present an agreement that's acceptable. The End.
senortony1111 11 months ago
@senortony1111
"Just because Arab countries do something illegal doesn't mean Israel can"
I can see your point and it apply without doubt to us as individuals BUT...
Again international law apply to all or nobody.
For decades Arabs with help and cover from Soviets and Muslim countries ignore every written and unwritten law of war. They use every underhanded/dirty trick against jews. World wide terror, war of attrition, oil war, suicide bombing etc.
Any other nation would just nuke them to hell
Greywind30 11 months ago
@senortony1111 "The original partition was not accepted because it fell far short of what was required by international law"
Where did you get this idea? Arabs reject it for very simple reasons. Locals consider themselves sole owners of land. Egypt and Jordan wanted more land and power and rest want some action.
Nothing to do with "required by international law"
Israel propose peace that US deemed fair and acceptable and Arafat reject it.
Greywind30 11 months ago
Ben Ami is more anti Israel than Finkllestein, so there is hardly a debate here.
middlemanscaggs 11 months ago
fuck international law and court! he gave the control of the interpool back than to the nazis.
TheLordIdanZiegeL 1 year ago
It is amazing how Dr. Finkelstein quotes from various books even telling page numbers, i can't even remember what i have eaten yesterday ;))
Mrjaguarpaw1 1 year ago
This is one of the few videos/interviews where Finklestein is actually given some leeway to articulate what (in retrospect) is not really that controversial. Its only controversial if your not paying precise detailed attention to the conflict and said negotiations. Its good to watch.
jdugmar 1 year ago
I as a Palestinian want Dr Finkelstein to be the ONLY negotiator for the Palestinian people. This man is brilliant!
dominater72 1 year ago 2
ah the truth hurts doesn't it Israel......as much as you try to distort and cover it up....thank God for honest, brave, and scholarly men such as Flinkelstein who present facts rather than distortions.....
232323C 1 year ago 3
[After watching the Finkelstein-Dershowitz debate] It's so nice to hear from Finkelstein has to say when he can talk at length without being interrupted.
army819 1 year ago
[After watching the Finkelstein-Dershowitz debate] It's so nice to hear from Finkelstein has to say when he can talk at length without being interrupted.
army819 1 year ago
norman is a real jew not a zionist pig ore a israeli motherfucker
radomaxx 1 year ago 3
NF: "Both sides excepted Clinton parameters with some reservations"
Typical misleading half true in best traditions of Goebbels. Here what Pr. Clintons says in "Clinton on Israel-Palestine" /watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y
NF is one twisted "feel good" useful moron. Simple truth of Israeli Arab conflict is
Two state as it was offered originally was possible only if both sides agreed. Arabs rejected it and attack jews. This killed original plan. Law apply to everyone or nobody.
Greywind30 1 year ago
@Greywind30
"Arabs rejected it and attack jews."
Since Israel was built on land that had been Palestine a couple of decades before, why should they not have attacked Israel?!
the81kid 11 months ago
@the81kid
This land was under Brits for about 30yr and before them under Ottomans for 500yr. So called Palestinians never own this land.
Greywind30 11 months ago
@Greywind30
but they DID live there. what claim does Israel have then, if you deny the actual orginal inhabitants?
the81kid 11 months ago
@the81kid
Yes. Jews always had a communities there. First census in 1840 show 1/3 of Jerusalem were jews.
One of the first things Jordanian did when they took Jerusalem was denigrating and destroying jewish cemetery and synagogues. Cemetery on mount Olive was over 2500 yr old. 48 synagogues some hundreds yr old.
Yes jews have been in this location. and they are actual original inhabitant
Greywind30 11 months ago
@Greywind30
...except that even in the Jewish religious texts, Jews fought the original original inhabitants ¨(Canaanites and co.) for the land. i never said Jews didn't have communities there. there were also Christians, and a lot more Palestinians. again, more excuses for mistreating the Palestinians, and a total lack of heart for the Palestinians, their right to self-determination, their regugees. Just keep appealing to "God gave us the land" and religious texts.
the81kid 11 months ago
@the81kid "excuses for mistreating the Palestinians, and a total lack of heart for the Palestinians, their right to self-determination, their regugees"
Do you realize that Arabs own whole "Palestine" for two decades but did not give so called Palestinian a iota of self government?
Do you know that arabs actually kill more so called palestinian then Israeli?
Do you know that arabs throw away and robe blind about same number of jews?
Greywind30 11 months ago
@Greywind30
They ownED whole Palestine for decades (when exactly was that? but for arguments sake, lets consider you are correct): that's your excuse for mistreating them?! you have no arguments, only distraction and name-calling.
stop calling names.
stop pointing the finger at others.
stop mistreating the Palestinians.
the81kid 11 months ago
@the81kid "that's your excuse for mistreating them?! you have no arguments, only distraction and name-calling"
Excuse? Constant shelling is excuse? Keeping PoW without letting International organization inspection excuse?
Enemy of Israel do not adhere to any rules. They every and any underhanded tactics terror, trade war, war of attrition, blockade and in fact reject any peace offering. In fact they dig tunnel to capture Israeli soldier while talking about peace.
Greywind30 11 months ago
@Greywind30
"Enemy of Israel do not adhere to any rules. They every and any underhanded tactics terror, trade war, war of attrition, blockade and in fact reject any peace offering. In fact they dig tunnel to capture Israeli soldier while talking about peace."
You have point-by-point described the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Except "dig a tunnel" - Israel just goes in (in to the West Bank too) with tanks and cars. And last time I checked, taking a soldier prisoner in war is not illegal.
the81kid 11 months ago
@the81kid "And last time I checked, taking a soldier prisoner in war is not illegal" Sure it is not "illegal" in more way then one and I did not imply it's "illegal"
Let me quote myself "Keeping PoW without letting International organization inspection"
You capture uniform soldier and its fine (during war) but treat him by Geneva conv.
Even if Israel does whatever was done to it (for argument sake) its justified. After enduring 60 yr of non stop terror Israeli entitle to finish by any means
Greywind30 10 months ago
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@Greywind30
"After enduring 60 yr of non stop terror Israeli entitle to finish by any means " - the Palestinians have been enduring oppression, refugees have been forced from their homes, civilians killed (300 children killed in Gaza in one "war") for that exact same time, since their own lands were taken and became israel. the thief calls the land's owner names. Again, you ignore the oppressed people, forced from their own land.
the81kid 10 months ago
@Greywind30 whether they do or don't, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Israel is breaking international law. If they stop doing so, they would have a better position to defend against anti-Semites. I am not a Zionist and I am not an anti-Semite. When a very powerful state (Israel) mistreats a very weak neighbour, even if some citizens of the neighbouring state are anti-Semites and terrorists, that powerful state is still acting illegally.
blueray1969 11 months ago
@Greywind30
but they lived there for all those generations.
but since they didn't fill in the paperwork and "own" it, just kick them out!? i can't believe all the excuses for mistreating them.
the81kid 11 months ago
7:00 til 7:40 ! true that!
elachechino 1 year ago
<impossible to deal with radical muslims! be realistic fools!
elachechino 1 year ago
The jew on the left with only the marginally big nose is a silly douche
HBOMB99 1 year ago
Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
iqsquared 1 year ago 2
ben ami is also destroyed!
Hamilton111111 1 year ago 3
@Hamilton111111 Read his book.
Joniversity 1 year ago
Quoting Mr.Ben Ami on Israeli reservations was a SLAM DUNK!
Mann4821 1 year ago 16
@Mann4821
True! Finkelstein completely destroyed him!
hummin0lalala 4 months ago 6
This has been flagged as spam show
The very fact that Ben-Ami admits that it's "almost impossible to do things on the basis of international law" and that the reason that the Palestinians were willing to make concessions is because they recognized that illustrates the problem. Technically, it should not be "impossible" to enforce the law, but that's the approach that Israel, in disregarding the law, has: Who cares if its impermissible to acquire territory by war? We have it now and we'll do as we please.
2cool2care 1 year ago
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2cool2care 1 year ago
Norman Finkelstein is a Judenrat emphasis on RAT
pinetree1973 1 year ago
Actually Both guys almost told the truth .. 100% told By Dr Norman .. 90% by Shlomo
samerashour2010 1 year ago
Nice to see Norman smiling here. He doesn't smile much anymore. I guess having Douchewitz (sociopath) ruin his career and his life is a bit of a downer.
pazomblez 1 year ago 35
@pazomblez The Illinois Conference of the American Association of University Professors also sent a letter to the university’s president stating: "It is entirely illegitimate for a university to deny tenure to a professor out of fear that his published research … might hurt a college’s reputation" and that the association has "explicitly rejected collegiality as an appropriate criterion for evaluating faculty members"
Rastinny 8 months ago
@Rastinny ONLY IN A JEW RUN SOCIETY CAN A MAN PREACHING THE TRUTH BE DENIED A POSITION WHICH IS IS MORE THAN QUALIFIED TO HOLD....
jewpalegay 8 months ago
@jewpalegay lol
jonahfox 8 months ago
@jewpalegay
except the man is a Jew...how do you explain that?
idiot...
pazomblez 8 months ago
@pazomblez IDIOT..it makes no difference If your head was stuck up his ass..HE DID NOT GET HIS TENURE BECAUSE HE IS A JEW EXPOSING JEWRY.. Don't you get it?
jewpalegay 7 months ago
@jewpalegay
No he isn't. he's a Jew exposing Israel. Not at all the same thing. Only a racist like you would conflate the two. Norman would agree with me here.
And he was denied tenure because of a campaign of personal hatred that was waged against him by Alan Dershowitz.
pazomblez 7 months ago
@jewpalegay Yes, and apparently the Israel bashers aren't anti-Semitic when they make statements about the US being a 'Jew run society'
CMTours732 7 months ago
@CMTours732 Are you saying the US is NOT a Jew run society? And have you looked up the definition of "Anti-Semite" ? Being ARABIC myself makes ME a SEMITE.. People tend to have their heads up their asses when it comes to the definition of what a SEMITE is
jewpalegay 3 months ago 3
@CMTours732 I am amused when people use the term anti-semitic to mean anti jew. What does "semetic" mean? It does not exclusively mean jewish. There are semites in Egypt, Jordan, Ethiopia. The term semite refers to a range of aincient african-asiatic languages which includes both Hebrew and Arabic. Therefore both Jews and Arabs are semites. A jew cannot legitimately call an arab anti-semetic as they are both semites.
070911021302 2 months ago
@pazomblez Dr. Frank Menetrez, a former Editor-in-Chief of the UCLA Law Review, published an analysis of the charges made against Finkelstein by Alan Dershowitz, finding no merit in any single charge, and that, on the contrary, "Dershowitz is deliberately misrepresenting what Finkelstein wrote".
(I copy from Wikipedia..;-))
Rastinny 8 months ago
@pazomblez what do you mean? Douchewitz ruin Norman career?
Miss3sl 8 months ago
@Miss3sl
to make a long story short, yes.
pazomblez 8 months ago
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2cool2care 1 year ago
Finkelstein is very brilliant and articulated scholar...................
zabalaaynik 1 year ago
Dr finkelstein just such a gifted speaker!!!
eazzymo 1 year ago
this debate is a lot more civilized than Finkelstein's other debate on DN! with Dershowitz. Ben Ami at least lets Dr. Finkelstein talk.
SyHopeful 1 year ago
ZIONISM = TERRORISM
360atGOD 1 year ago 2
As a Palestinian I admire Dr. Finkelstein. And also respect Dr. Ben Ami for being respectful in this debate
Bakrofski 1 year ago 4
don't talk about sovereignty and the worldcourt in one sentence, please.
CheeezMaster 1 year ago
It's surprising that people still have peace talks, this peace talks have been from a point of weakness on the part of the ARABS, the Israelis have no intentions of any peace deals with any group of Arabs as long as they have American support. Free weapons and money. America is Bankrupt the question is will they continue to support this illegal occupation at their expence.
maria610421 1 year ago
Israelis have no right what so ever to be in Palestine, this was an invention under the Belford decleartion, engineered by Hertzle and excuted by Winston Churchil. They have used the Bible to Justify them having a state, which was written into the bible by the Warburgs Banking family. They were the Leaman Bros which was allowed to fold in the Banking Crisis.
maria610421 1 year ago
Speaking of International law, it does not seem to apply to Israel and America. They invade other countries and are surprised that people are willing to defend themselves. It's no surprise to me, because if I lived in a country that was attacked, I would do my best to defend my country. America is big enough to intergrate the people in Israel intside America.
maria610421 1 year ago
first time i've ever seen finklestein smile.
israelifaggot 1 year ago
Finklestein provides facts out of context and violates the definition of truth. his oration is fluid but his values are corrupt. if he can defend a group like hizzbola and foment for war with Israel in the arab media than he's disqualified as a source of reliable information.
wrldeye12 1 year ago
@wrldeye12: Why is Hizzbola Corrupt, because they believe in self defence, what if no one fought HITLER, because that is what Israel is it's a Nazi state. Israel is doing exactly what Hitler was doing in Europe. I really don't care about peoples ethnic make up, it's about right and wrong. The Israeli ideology is worse than that of Hizzbolah, because they only act to defend their country.
maria610421 1 year ago
@maria610421 BS. Anyone comparing Israel to the nazi Reich is very morally confused. hizzbolas 'self defense' to "fight the Jews where you may find them" is nazism within the Arab world. Odd the central theme of hitler to destroy Jews is the same as hizzbolas, no? Odd the majority of the Arab world supported hitler during WW2? Such strange coincidences eh? The Israeli ideology of self defense in a sea of jew hating mullahs is far more believable than the vast arab majority of "self defense."
wrldeye12 1 year ago
@wrldeye12: I disagree, because it's Israel who is behind all the attacks in the Arab world, including the 2006 attacls on Lebanon, what did you think Hizzbolah was going to do?. You attack my country I'll attack yours, it's simple common sense. Israel is planning to attack Syria, and Lebanon, who supply the weapons America. How can you find peace, with stupid foreign policies like that.
maria610421 1 year ago
@maria610421 Your statement "Israel is behind all the attacks in the Arab world" is both incorrect and nonsensical. I suppose Israel is behind all the sunni/shia mosque and market homicide bombs huh? hizzbola clearly attacked Israel in 2006 with mortars and then attacked soldiers, abducting two only to return their body parts. You are deluded Maria, you're defending the losing and truly evil team. Good luck 2 u in the next war.
wrldeye12 1 year ago
@maria610421 you seem to ignore the fact that the first israeli invasion into lebanon was because of palestinian groups initiating terror actions against israel form withtin lebanon, and thats also what finkelstein consistently does.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@ImTehWord: Israel is the agressor, I am not brainwashed by the media, I am able to think rationally, the people in Gaza have no army and are constantly under attack, by the Israelis, constantly having their homes destroyed, by the Israelis, the Israelis are a Group of NAZIS from Germany and should go back there, in my opinion.
maria610421 1 year ago
@maria610421 yea, the palis have no army and thats why they shoot rockets into israeli cities.
glad your opinion doesnt matter for shit.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@ImTehWord: You think your opinion matters, well sorry to tell you, you even matter less, becvause you are nothing but garbage, to be used to die for the rich elite who would not piss on you if you were on fire. Grow up and get a life.
maria610421 1 year ago
@maria610421 im grown up and have a life, and im not gonna die for anyone :]
liked the piss and fire thing though.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
@ImTehWord you are a mook - the ISRAEL STATE was born out of terrorism - you are so ignorant - google the Lavon affair - google Israel terror - get educated and know your history,ISRAEL USED TERRORISM TO GET WHAT THEY WANTED ! ! ! !
BrimstoneAlpha 1 year ago
@BrimstoneAlpha not really, israel was born out of a un decision, which was rejected by the palestinians and led to the palestinians declaring war on israel right after.
so if we really wanna tell what happened, i guess we have to say that israel was borned out of self defence.
ImTehWord 1 year ago
Finkelstein, there is no such a thing as a Palestinian
cgeorgak 1 year ago
@cgeorgak -- really? there's no such thing as a hoosier (who merely RESIDES in indiana)? a buckeye (who merely RESIDES in ohio)? and no such thing as palestinians who RESIDE/RESIDED in mapped, 2000 yr old place called PALESTINE?
verrry interesting... and STUPID :)
tessler6868 1 year ago
please dont denagrade ben ami, even though he is somewhat wrong, he stil accepts that what israel is doing to palestine is wrong. i think that finkelstein is under the impression that everyone he debates is dershowitz lol. shlomo ben ami, is a great person. it i sad that he gets attacked socially by many israelis for his difference in opinion from standard israeli hatred torward another culture.
SuperFifthwheel 1 year ago
the main diff. is that Fink. has read Shlomo´s books and can quote them in his favor while Shlomo must have been so busy "learning" Eng that he skipped reading Fink´s.
Burdell22000 1 year ago
Jerusalem is by far the holiest place in Judaism. The Al Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam, yet there is zero mention of Jerusalem "Al Quds" in the Qu'ran. In fact Muslim armies have destroyed Jerusalem on mutiple occasions. Why would they do that to their 3rd holiest site? Makes you wonder.
karey26 1 year ago
@karey26 What does it make you wonder? That they are savages and dont deserve jerusalem?? You cant argue with facts put forward by Finkelstein, he is absolutely correct in everything he says. Im sure you disagree because you come out with shit which has nothing to do with the legal standing of the conflict.What Israel has done and continues to do is against international law. If any other arab country behaved the same way as Israel they would have been invaded long ago.
Blind to the hypocrisy!!
Seanyboyh 1 year ago
@karey26 Muslims believe that it is Jerusalem that Muhammad visited during his night journey. The event of Isra' and Mi'raj is mentioned in the Quran, in the first verse of Chapter 17 entitled 'The Children of Israel.
"Glory to God, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things." (Qur'an 17:1)
adamsidd 1 year ago
@karey26 Not only did Muslim armies NOT destroy Jerusalem, they liberated it to allow Jewish worshipers to enter (they had been expelled by the Christians), and pardoned soldiers who did not put up a fight. When Caliph Omar conquered the city he was invited to worship at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. As a mark of respect he declined, anticipating (correctly) that Muslims would want to build a mosque where he prayed. So he prayed some distance away (where a mosque was built later)
adamsidd 1 year ago
Finkelstein is Beautiful man.
6Ott7 1 year ago 7
Nice ! Mr. Finkelstein is very skilled
eazydillinger 1 year ago 57
At least Mr. Ben Ami has the grace to admit he is wrong at times....which is 98% of this debate.
Wow, Finkelstein is truly a gifted scholar: to the point, here are the facts, here are the principals accept it or reject it.
gomobo2232 2 years ago 72
@gomobo2232 You're right. Ben Ami seems honest and sincere. And Finkelstien is a rockstar.
kkhan1981 1 year ago 2
@gomobo2232 I totally agree. At least the Jews have souls & conscience to admit their crimes. Unfortunately, the chinese scums, the worst racists in the world, are still occupying Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, East Turkistan, Russian Siberian land, Vietnamese lands & islands & Korean islands.
These chinese racist scums are worst than dogs!!!
ProphetLuong 11 months ago
great video..where can i get a transcript.
MajNorberg 2 years ago 3
if you are a supporter of a two state solution I will give you one
ma11ohad 2 years ago
you seem to give and TAKE as you please.
MajNorberg 2 years ago 3
@MajNorberg
democracynowDOTorg/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_if_i
whauffend 1 year ago
I think Ben Ami is schizophrenic
Fukkutah 2 years ago 3
Israelis could agree on the west bank ,Gaza and jerusalem but no Israeli will agree that 6 million Arabs will come in too Israel BC this will be the end of Israel this is not a fair solution. in 1948 there were about 250,000 Arabs in Israel today BC the world kept them and their families as refugees we are talking about 6 million. Israel is a country the size of NJ . so yes the international law is unfair and that is why we will always fight it
ma11ohad 2 years ago
Finkelstein answers this problem in this part of the debate, they don't want the full right of return for 6 million, only a percentage.
RegenBogenBlick 2 years ago
good BC finklastin is the king of Palestine right?
I been living this conflict all my life and never heard anyone say this or any Palestinian agree to that
if the solution is a two state solution ( and it is) why sending Palestinians to Israel and not to Palestine any ways? and the biggest question why keeping 4 generation of people as refugees Arab people that was born in Jordon and lebanon . and at the same time taking the refugee status from the Jews even thou the conflict is still going on
ma11ohad 2 years ago
Who said he was the king? He just states the solution the Palestinians have agreed to.
If the solution is a two state solution then why don't the Israeli government do more to make it work? They do everything to stop it from working, the citizens of the fake state that is israel should be ashamed of themselves for the atrocities committed by their elected governments, the whole thing is a disgrace.
RegenBogenBlick 2 years ago
and again you just proved Norman finkelstein wrong... I share the same wishful thinking of Norman finkelstein , but as you can see all of these debate are between one Jew to another Jew one Israeli to another Israeli or American. never ever we see Henia or any palestinian leader here talking about solutions. we are not the kings of the Palestinians we can wish that the Palestinians wants peace but as you said most Arabs thinks Israel is a fake state that should not exist
ma11ohad 2 years ago
I never said most Arabs think Israel is a fake state that should not exist, I don't know what most Arabs think, you should read my responses more carefully.
In my opinion Israel is a fake state, fake because it is based upon stolen land/ property and the terrorism of the indigenous population, the history of the so called State of Israel is a master class in murder and terrorism, it's a disgrace, the Zionist movement is a joke.
RegenBogenBlick 2 years ago
well that's at the very most your uneducated opinion.
its not the international community views . the international community since 1948 is talking about a two states solution . Norman finklstine argue that the Palestinians accepts that . I am saying that when the Palestinians will have a unified government that will stand up at say that officially to the Israeli people that is the day we will have peace. and if you don't know what the most Arabs thinks why are you here anyway
ma11ohad 2 years ago
How is it my uneducated opinion? You speak as if you know me when clearly you don't.
I'm not allowed to be here unless I know what most Arabs think?
I make arguments based on the facts, you obvioulsy don't and no doubt get your "facts" from the mainstream media or other unreliable sources, I feel sorry for ignorant people like you.
Your arguments are ridiculous and this dialogue is turning into a farce, if you don't have intelligent arguments to make then we should leave it like this.
RegenBogenBlick 2 years ago
I am using finkelsin argument about the international law.
you are saying Israel is a stolen land which is a lie according to the international law. the international law recognize Israel in the 1967 borders.
I only saying that i never heard a Palestinian leader that is talking in the name of most Palestinians people that says what finklstin say. and when it will happen this is the day we will have peace
ma11ohad 2 years ago
@ma11ohad
And that will be the day that when that Arab Palestinian leader die by a bullet by some fundamental person of one of the two crazy sides (religious)
ammanj 2 years ago
Don't let this moron fool you. He's doing this as part of his job with the JIDF which is part of the Israeli hasbara service. Israel as a Zionist ideology was condemned as racist by a UN resolution in 1975. That should say enough about what we are dealing with here. Israel's official public statements don't match the practice on the ground and don't even come close to what they say in private. The reason is very obvious to those in the know:the Zionist project is to occupy all the Middle East.
SheerGenius2 2 years ago 6
@SheerGenius2 Yes you are correct. The Zionist project is to occupy all the Middle East. Well they occupy about 1%, so only about 99% to go!
Fitplayer66 1 year ago
DofaDofah you can't create a state where people live because it is promised in writing from 1000s of years ago. And who the fuck cares if there was artifacts so in leu of that argument England should take back all of its colonies since there was no ancient artifacts proving there existence there was no acient ugandan zambian or any others. Your argument is mut the Palistinians should have the land that was stolen from them back.
meleszenawi1111 2 years ago 6
I think I remember when Barak withdrew his negotiators.
canaan1967 2 years ago 2
Finkelstein is brilliant! He's cool, calm and collective during his debates.
NYCHustler03 2 years ago 8
I love how Finkelstein smiles while he kicks the facts about the crimes, half-truths and contradictions of the Israeli government.
NYCHustler03 2 years ago 11
Finkelstein strikes me as being really nitpicky, as if playing a game of "gotcha." He makes a big deal about how Ben Ami underestimates the Israeli reservations to the agreement by calling them "a few pages of reservations" when in fact there were "ten pages of reservations." After Ben Ami (who after all took part in the negotiations) explains the contents of the ten page letter in the next segment, Finkelstein's criticism appears even more trivial.
nonhater1 2 years ago
your bicht ! why are you asking Ben Ami to be brief while the arabfriend Norman has all the time in the world?
Dahlsson8 2 years ago
Jerusalem is "occupied" from Jordan (wich gave it up) and Jordan occupied it before .... mr.Finkelstein forgets , that there NEVER was country "Palestine" and there no nation called "Palestinians" ....
Meshick 2 years ago
You are just saying you know better than the World Court. In domestic law I may "give up" my car to someone who steals it, because I have no choice, no ability to get it back but the thief is not the legal owner of it. The modern idea of international law extends this to relations between states - it is illegal to take territory by war and treat it as your own. Ideas may have been different 100s of years ago, that this is irrelevant - times have changed.
e4mmacro 2 years ago
Realy - so why don't we say to Russia give up some islands to Japan and some other things taken from western europe? Or should US may be give up Alaska back to Russia? - Worlds oldest tradition is taliking about jews and how bad they are ... and after that chit - chat usually ends up with a pogrom .... Your liberal bullshit and law keeping is usually kept for athers and those athers are usually smaller in their number ........
Meshick 2 years ago
maybe there was no country called palestine, but there certainly was a nation called Palestinians
btw there was never an Israel either
skabudaw1 2 years ago
....did you heard about book "bible"?
Meshick 2 years ago
i don't read mythology
skabudaw1 2 years ago
I did not talled You to beleive in god - I referred you to it for a different reason - AND YOU KNOW WICH ....
Word palestinian is from ancient HEBREW's "plishtin" - wich comes from word "plisha" - INVASION .... Go to Jerusalem and see clear evidence of who was there and who was not ...resent digging under " temple mountain " - caused a big riots among local muslims -but nobody supported them - Jerusalem not mentioned in coran even ones ... So keep your bullshit to your arab fanatic friends!
Meshick 2 years ago
but its mythology, its not a book of history, what it says amount nuthing to me, i don't believe in it or in the Quran.....
skabudaw1 2 years ago
so if its not mentioned in the Quran, that gives u right to it... loooooool
ur logic is weak
skabudaw1 2 years ago
Your understanding is sux and your ignorance is incredible - by quran - I just gave example of how your lovely arabs stick it in every issue to take more land and say "it is historically" ours ... or "allah is the only god - you will convert or die" - You made no pint by yourself - only LOLing and ather stuff , anyway - there is no point to keep this "converstion"....
Meshick 2 years ago
my point still stands....and i'm sorry becuase i didn't fit ur streotype of lovely arabs...yes, i don't believe in the Quran nor do i believe in the bible....
and learn how to spell properly by the way
skabudaw1 2 years ago