When I think of labor unions, I think of an adversarial relationship and mutual mistrust that makes building a great organization impossible.
Labor Unions are a powerful force in the decline of American manufacturing
The decline of manufacturing is the decline of a strong middle class.
There was a time when labor unions were necessary. For all the good they once did they now cause destruction of their members and for the organizations they once organized. Their day is past.
"O"FCW for 15 years?? Didn't even know it was the "U"FCW. Imagine that!!! Heritage Foundation and 'Right "to" Work' Committee been paying my bills fo soo.. long I forgot to ask.
Another fine piece of propaganda from the heritage foundation. Corporate employers are really the ones who perform these kinds of abuses. There is no factual data I am aware of that indicates unions use the tactics discussed.
ok look i was on an job where 80% petioned for the carpenters went the vote was said and done we went down to 45% it isnt because they"find out for information about the union" it cause the contractor hire labour relation cunsaltants a.k.a union buster and threaten a trerminate employees
ok BWy0874 you want to make personal go back to licking obama ass so you can keep fucking tax payers out of there money unions the new welfare to work program
i dont get this the union people have no intellectual property in the company they didnt get the funding to start the company yet they think cause they turn a wrench or some other menial job they think they deserve ceo wages. Unions are dead let them go hell they already broke to major car manufacturers
ford762, This is actually one of the dumbest rants Ive ever read, and thats saying something. Shouldnt you be screaming your incoherant rubbish at a healthcare town hall meeting somewhere? I bet you still have your McCain/ Palin bumper sticker on your 86 camaro. Ignorant redneck piece of shit.
Trooper, I bet you have a poster of Milton Friedman hanging in your bedroom. How dare Chomsky speak up against the evils of corporate tyrany. Your right he's a freedom hater. Perhaps you should try some research into the reasons Chavez isn't a big fan of America or the corporations that misrepresent our interests in Venezuala. Research the World banks use of "debt forgivness" to steal resources from 3rd world countries. Try to realize thru your slanted view of issues that there are concequences.
If the majority of workers want a union now, there is nothing stopping them from voting for it in a secret ballot. There is no rational justification for this legislation. The Employee Forced Choice Act takes away the right to keep ones vote private, allowing union goons to intimidate workers into signing on. The right to secret ballot is fundamental to democracy.
Worse, the act forces businesses and unions to accept government arbitration in strikes, whether both want it or not.
So let me understand IWLocal8, you are saying that there are NO secret ballot elections now where as an employee can make a decision weather to have a union or not? If that is what you are saying, they have brain washed you but please explain what you mean.
That's exactly what I'm saying. The NLR Act of 1935 is what we use today. In it there is no place for a secret ballot. Look it up for yourself instead of being one of the sheeple who believe these Big Business-financially funded frauds. MOST of their vids (NRTW,Unionfacts,etc) will only allow for anti-union posts to be made. They censor their remarks while claiming to be for everyone's rights. I guess that means Freedom of Speech unless you disagree with them.
OK panama, your'e probably smarter than I give you credit for. I think the diference between u and me is u were lucky enough to not have been victimized by a large corporation. You have had some negative experiences with unions but they probably pale in comparison to the atrocities I witnessed. And its not just small companies. I worked for the largest equipment manufacturer in the world. If u ever experienced the dehuminizing culture of one of these companies then u might see things different.
With the EFCA unions are trying to remove the SECRET BALLOT, but to decertify the unions you guys still would like to have the Secret ballot in play. Why is it fair to have it one way and not the other? That just shows another example of the desperation union supporters are using to further their agenda.
There is NO SECRET BALLOT currently in place to be removed!! This LIE shows the desperation that companies are using to take away rights of working people. Another observation - many vids that oppose the EFCA don't allow comments to be posted without being "approved". Further shows that we're dealing with people who refuse to discuss the FACTS.
We all base our beliefs and world view on our own personal examples and experiences. Who doesn't? I'm in a different line of work now so its unlikely that I'll ever have further personal experience with either union or non-union issues. I do believe that 100 years ago there was a strong need for unions. Going back 20 years or so I don't believe the need is so strong on a large scale. There are a handfull of small companies that still take advantage of employees but are the exception nt the rule
Thus the main reason union membership IMO is dwindling. I can only base my beliefs on my own experiences. I assume there are a few unions IE the law Enforcement officers....where they know they have very limited funding. Everyone I had talked to that came over to our non union aluminum plant had 90% bad things to say about the union that represented them. Its too bad that from my personal examples you still infer that I am just weak minded. More people are non union than union...Were all weak?
To answer your ? If I was a business owner I would do everything possible to keep my workers non-union. That means competitive wages, good benefits, and a healthy working environment. You see labor unions benefit all working people. When the unions are gone, then what? I'll give you a homework assignment because Im tired of explaining things to you. Research Toyota's plan to "realign wages" in Kentucky. This is a sample of what this country can expect without the protection of unions.
Unions have 3 functions in our world today. 1. Make money for the Union leaders. 2. Run American companies into the ground. 3. Keep democratic polititions in charge. Thats it!
Im not beating this dead horse with you. Im not changing your opinion, and vise versa. What I want to know is who shaped this draconian, corporitist world view of yours? Sara Palin? Joe the Plumner.
Actually..the answer is that union rep that I already told you about. He played a key role in helping me shape my world view that dwells in realizms and not fantasy.
Its very telling to me that your greatest influence was a negative experience you had with some jerkoff that probalbly wasnt fit to represent his union. The person I credit most with shaping my view of this country is Noam Chomsky. A highly revered scholar. I reallize that your not very bright and the fact that you cannot site one prominent conservative mind tells me that your opinions are uneducated and probably came mostly from watching fox news.
Yes, you are in great company with your admiration of Chomsky. Hugo Chavez also respects and admires Noam. Chavez loves Chomsky so much that he held up one of Noam's books when he addressed the United Nations in 2006.
Chomsky is another one of those American born communists that is little more than a parasite. He feeds on the naivete of pseudo intellectuals like yourself.
I wonder if you started your own business if your feelings would still be the same. My money says NO. I never said EVERYBODY should be poor as you had infered...I said in essence that we kind of need a healthy lower class (as we have always had) Our structure can't support $1200-1800/month mortgages combined with $600/ month car payments. If your not satisfied with your wage...shop around or upgrade your skills. But let the free market decide the pay scale. Just my opinion.
My question to you pro-corporate, union busting conservatives is this. The labor movement has had many renowned scholars that have campaigned on our behalf such as Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Gore Vidal and many more.
So who are the modern ideological pillars of the conservative movement? And dont say Jesus because he would have been in the carpenters union.
Hmmm...all those scholars and membership still dropping? When you can change the dynamics of the world economic structure thats one thing...You see I prefer to deal in REALITY...You may think about trying that out some time...I highly recomend it. You can't....we can't increase incomes or wages around the world, but since we must compete with them..... (sucks for us) I mean after all they have a huge body of water to overcome that should give us an advantage to start out with.
The idiocy of this post is shocking. Everyone knows union membership in the manufacturing and transportation sectors is shrinking. The corporations own this country and the downward pressure on wages and organizing is evident. But does that make it right for our country just because its the current trend?
You say I dont deal with reallity, but I would argue that people like you are simple minded weaklings afraid to fight for the gains that have been made for the working class.
It is amazing to me how the conservative culture in this country has become so brainwashed by Fox News, Limbaugh, and other talking heads that they will vote against their best interest in the name of gay mariage, guns, or abortion. Why do you invoke the "free trade" argument on behalf of multi-national corporations at the behest of the working class. NAFTA , China's favored nation trading status and other free trade plans have raped this country of jobs in return for cheap crap at Walmart
Apparently you haven't got a picture in your head about my point yet. If you can get Union Reps to seriously think about and act towards maintaining LONG TERM viability then I wouldnt be so against unions.
Thats not hateful at all. So lets just give everybody 300,000 and see how long it takes for our structure to fail. Hell $20 a person to have lunch at McDonalds....that sounds pretty cool. I didn't say American companies 'should' compete I said they fucking 'are' so you may as well learn to deal with it. If I decide to start a business and I find out that someone from TIMBUCK2 is selling the same product in my same market for 30% less than me I better get with the fucking program or get out.
OK, lets continue the current trend of outsourcing jobs to foreign sweatshops. We just wont build anything in America.
The average wage in China is $160 a month. In India it is $150. A high level job may pay as much as $1000 a month. In India 94% of the population earns near their minimum wage level. That is why we had tarriffs to protect the integrity of the American market. Why anyone would support this race to the bottom you suggest is beyond me.
Mortgage backed securities have little to do with people that purchased ARM's (some multiple for flipping) disregarding their balloon payments thinking they could sell the house before the rate increased. Groups like ACORN have pushed for housing for minorities for years. There were Government regulations from the Clinton years that mandated that a certain % of a banks loans had to be to underpriviledged customers.
If you dont know what a mortgage backed security is then why post? A MBS is a whole bunch of mortgages bunched together to form a fund. They are bought from primary lenders and they contain sub-prime loans including ARMs. So I would surmize that mortgage backed securities have a little to do with people that purchased ARMs.
As for this government mandated minority lending, 85% of the sub-prime loans came from the private sector. So when you hear Rush crying about Acorn consider the source.
And Union reps and leaders aren't greedy? come on...I wasn't born yesterday. Its you that doesnt get it. If unions were so hot the membership trend would be going up not down. Less desperate not more....Its not just the steel mill...it was the union meeting that I attended that sealed it in my head. He said something like "I know the plant that I work at is losing money but Alcoa has deep pockets so it doesn't matter" Thats what convinced me scrub.
OK, I get it, you dont like unions, whatever. Jesus Christ its like debating a 12 year old. I dispell all of your points and have easily whipped your ass on every argument and you still dont know when your'e outclassed. A little advise, stay down. Your making yourself look silly
Funny. You haven't dispelled ONE of my points. You say I pulled facts out of my ass but my ass pulled facts were closer than your "corrected" facts. ( that doesnt count as being dispelled ) The fact is that American consumers can get products from Oversees or other countries, like it or not you must take that into consideration. You run out of talking points so you self assess that you won the argument and compare me to a kid. Im smarter than that. You have an uphill battle I don't.
OK asshole here we go. First off you were wrong about union wages raising car prices. The average UAW produced car has $2400 in labor costs. 93% of vehicle production costs are raw materials, 6% labor wages, 1% energy. Now its funny that I know more about why the steel mill you talk about moved to China than you do. It is a public relations problem for a large US company to move to China so they say its the unions fault and move to the worlds largest steel market for windfall profits
You said the banking crisis was caused by democrats forcing banks to make bad loans, more bullshit. I had to explain the whole mortgage backed securities in hedge funds scam, but I doubt you understood.
"Am I supposed to think all union reps dont give a shit about profits for companies"
Apparently so, you heard one jerk off shoot off at the mouth at a meeting and suddenly your an authority on unions.
Lets not forget your fascist belief that we should maintain a poor working class as a hedge against inflation. I should have stopped debating you right there. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you say that hateful shit. But that explains why you think American workers should compete for jobs with 3rd world countrties. In all seriousness Im just tired of talking to someone that cant carry on an intellectual debate, you are extremely immature, and your points are simplistic and niave.
Curb weight- Chrysler Towne and country = 3,899 lbs... 2008 Honda Accord = 3299 lbs. Nice for you to use the capacity weight to prove your point....I do my homework ...FYI cars probably have at least 1000 lbs of plastics and other material. So I'd say my initial story is closer than the one you TRIED to prove me wrong with. Should I be expecting an apology soon? 2008 Chevy Avalance curb weight= 5500. Steel isn't the most expensive cost to produce vehicles bro.
Dont call me bro, buddy. Who cares about the freakin weight. You just dont get it. You keep talking about this steel mill that took off to China. You had some friends there that were thought the union should have saved their jobs. Or the union cost there jobs or whatever. The fact is China has the worlds largest steel market. 3 times more demand than all of North America. Those companies moved the plants over there for greed. To cash in on a hot market. The unions were a scapegoat.
Your only partially right. They moved to China because the climate here is too unfavorable. Unions were not just a scapegoat. They played a key role in the US market that exists today. Am I sopposed to think that all Union reps don't give a shit about profits for the company as long as the company has "Deep Pockets?" Thats a valid point buddy so why don't you address that instead of falsly summizing that you have me down for the count?
Of course you cant hang with the likes of me. I come with personal experience and facts and the best you can do is call me stupid and bail. I had you figured for about this caliber. Which isn't saying much. Go flip your breaker switches and keep paying your dues. I just wish you were man enough to admit the real reason your bailing out. Its just like liberal punks when they get outclassed to call the other one stupid.
That is the essence of the organized, non organized argument. Organized puts money in the consumers hands short term but takes it back away when they go to purchase common goods that SHOULD be inexpensive to produce. So now as I make my point about inflation. Perfect example is auto market. As soon as you drive your car off the dealership you depreciate thousands. Thats why so many people need to have Gap insurance.
You did not address the exploitation of workers and the environment in other countries, a Global economy should improve the lives of workers in other countries and ours that was the intent of free trade, and it was not intend to take advantage of foreign workers and American workers. If American workers had universal health care like other competing countries that would be a good start!
Universal Health care has its problems just like our system does. Maybe some worse problems. Put a cap on Malpractice lawsuits then we can do somthing.
panama, Once again your argument isn't very factual. The average UAW produced car takes $2400 worth of labor to build. Rising steel prices have more to do with prices going up. Why is it that you think union wages keep prices high when Toyotas, Fords, Hondas, and Chevys all cost about the same. Just because something sounds logical to you doesn't make it true. You guys need to do your own research and quit releying on the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world for your info.
Thats horse crap...steel in most cars comes to about 1500-200 lbs. Don't try to tell me that costs ten grand. I can tell you the union Steel mill that was in my city has been dis assembled and moved to China. Union labor managed to wreak havok on that plant.
Thats supposed to be 2000 lbs. OK BWY lets hear your version of the negative aspects of organized workers. Lets see if you can be objective. I doubt it.
Uh ya, my pick up wieghs 7200 lbs my wifes car is 5700lbs Im guessing most of that is steel. You gotta stop pulling these facts out of your ass. Raw materials make up the vast majority of auto costs. As for the negatives of a union shop, the biggest for me is poor managment to employee relationship. In a non-union shop as long as your obediant and submissive you can get along pretty well with the boss. There are also a few that take advantage of union protection, but we police them ourselves.
Id much rather buy my goods in the US. Whether we like it or not you operate in a Global economy and to nut understand THAT is narrow minded. You may like your short term union labor. What happens when a competitor opens up shop accross the street and never goes union. That spells doom for the union labor cause you will never concede wages. You will resort to threatening the employees of the shop accross the street.
Hay I make a good liven, but I know that you need to put money in the hands of the consumers. Like Obama said in his speech the other day, trickle UP economics benefits the most people and its the best way to kick start the economy for now. Dont be so rigid on the Wal-Mart lowest price at al cost economic model.
Some people will do and say anything to save buck, but this thinking is narrow minded and its a house of cards and we are seeing the aftermath with mass job loss. And the low paying service jobs that have replaced the good paying manufacturing jobs will only put more downward pressure on the middle class and the economy. I know if youre looking down on the middle class trickle down economics looks good.
The US is a business dominated society. Human rights are subordinated to the overriding need of proffit for investors. Decisions are placed in the hands of unaccountable private tyranies to the extent that even democratic government is nothing more than the shaddow cast over society by corporations. Economic policy is geared for the transfer of wealth and power to those that already have it. The one countermeasure the working class has in the labor movement.- Chomsky.
If America does not manufacture and sell goods, then money only leaves the country. The U.S. now imports twice as much as it exports. This has resulted in a trade deficit that has ballooned to an unprecedented $800 billion on an annualized basis. Unfortunately, this trend shows no signs of abating. U.S. exports are declining versus imports all across the board. Even agriculture posted a deficit this past year for the first time in living memory.
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that If I can find a better price abroad then thats where I am gonna buy my goods from. If they can ship my product oversees and still give me a better price than you can do it from accross the street from me then something is wrong and YOU better fix it if you want to stay in business.
That may be but at what cost, look at the swine flu farms in Mexico, the big farms and manufactures move to Mexico and other countries to get around environmental and labor laws. So youre saying manufactures can no longer take advantage of American workers because unions have provide union and non union workers with labor laws so they should move overseas and take advantage of other countries workers so you can save a buck.
America may gain access to cheaper products through outsourcing, but it also comes with attendant problems, including a downward pressure on wages. Laid-off manufacturing laborers are largely switching into lower-paying jobs in the service industry. Where they once made an average of $51,000 annually, they now make $16,000 in leisure and hospitality, $33,000 in health care, or $39,000 in construction
Look at Mr.Coffee. Used to be made in the US with Union labor getting paid $21/hr. They moved the operation to Mexico and paid about $2.50/hr. That wa too much so they moved to China and dished out 21 cents a day. All the time they never dropped the price of a coffee maker. It's about profit, not producing a cheaper product for the consumer's benefit.
Admirers of globalization contend that freer access to foreign markets and cheap labor increase corporate profits and thereby benefit the U.S. economy. While this argument may superficially sound compelling, it ignores the dangerous long-term effects of manufacturing losses. In reality, outsourcing makes Americans poorer over time, because Americas wealth and technology slowly migrate to other nations.
At the dawn of globalization, the elimination of trade barriers opened up access to foreign markets for American manufacturers in return for building factories abroad. In due course, more and more manufacturers set up shop overseas, producing goods to be sold to Americans. Today, the trend is so severe, analysts predict that in some industries, a quarter to a half of all non union and union jobs are likely to migrate
Considering the stupendous list of Americas manufacturing achievements and the vulnerabilities associated with foreign dependence when a nation lacks strong domestic manufacturing, it is alarming when economists are warning that the U.S. is facing the gutting, hollowing out and closing down of American manufacturing forever
However, manufacturing as a share of the economy has been plummeting. In 1965, manufacturing accounted for 53 percent of the economy. By 1988 it only accounted for 39 percent, and in 2004, it accounted for just 9 percent and so on.
On the back of this industrial output rose Americas middle class. High-paying manufacturing jobs, in turn, helped spur a robust and growing economy that depended little on foreign nations for manufactured goods and armaments.
During this period, many American icons were born. Companies like General Motors, Ford, Boeing, Maytag and Levi Strauss became household names. American manufacturing became synonymous with quality and ingenuity.
For over a half century, American manufacturing has dominated the globe. It turned the tide in World War ii and hastened the defeat of Nazi Germany; it subsequently helped rebuild Europe and Japan; it enabled the United States to outlast the Soviet empire in the Cold War. At the same time, it met all the material needs of the American people.
Don't be fooled. Unions are in cahoots with the mob (recognize the tactics?), and Big Labor is in bed with the Democrat Party, which never met an unconstitutional Big Government intrusion it didn't like. Unions have destroyed the education system and auto industries, made us uncompetetive in the world economy, all the while claiming it's the fault of the free market and more government control is "for your own good." Get the facts! The Heritage Foundation has a a great website about this.
The thought of an organized work force strikes fear in the hearts of the Washington power base and the GOP base, we need to take our government back from the big business fat cats that have been controlling Washington with their money.
And I ask how do we take back our government, do we do it as individuals or do we do it as a grass roots special interest group or as worker unions.
Of the three options the only one they fear is working family unions!!
In cahoots with the mob? Is this a joke? As far as the union ruining education, our government gets what it pays for, and they do not want an enlightened public capable of criticle thinking. They want obediant consumers, but after reading your post I think Im probably talking over your head. Cant wait to check out that heritage found. website. Im courious of what the nazi party is up to these days. Well I gotta go, need to get my union dues to Pauly Walnuts.
The bottom line is that if unions truly did fight for the middle class membership would not be to this day the lowest it has been in many, many years. And don't try to blame big business. People think for themselves alot more than you give them credit for.
Unions and the middle class side with and vote for demarcates more often because they side with the Majority IE. The middle class more often not all the time but more often then the GOP, and the republicans GOP sides with big business it is just true. Big business has money to buy votes and the middle class has Unions and organized labor for voting power. The working class has the GOP on the run. So I say keep them running and soon they will see its the majority that they should be catering to.
When I took the position of Political Advisor for our 1100 member Union, one of the very first things my contact at the AFL-CIO told me was that they do not support one political party. They will support whoever will help out Working Families. It's amazing to see how much money is being spent on keeping peoples' wages low. (i.e. ABC - the anti-union's ...union)
The market should always determine wages. If you don't like the pay or benefits of the place your with go find another place that pays better. Because of union labor there are tons of opportunities right?
the Board shall investigate the petition. If the Board finds that a majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for bargaining has signed valid authorizations designating the individual or labor organization specified in the petition as their bargaining representative and that no other individual or labor organization is currently certified or recognized as the exclusive representative of any of the employees in the unit,
Other big bucks are being spent by faux-grassroots organizations with misleading names such as the Coalition for a Democratic Workplace and the Center for Union Facts. President Barack Obama was not exaggerating when he said, recently, that the business community considers EFCA the devil incarnate
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has promised to spend $10 million opposing the Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA), the proposed federal law that would allow workers to form unions based on a showing of majority support, sometimes referred to as a card check election.
Dont come back with your scare tactics, the current economic model is to maximize profits and keep the wealth pooled at the top and then keep the country and the middle class in debt. Then they have their soldiers hammer down wages, divide the work force and make people think its for their own good.
you keep saying that the ultimate answer is to organize everyone into the unions. The same organization that has been on the decline for 10-15 years. If that were the cure all, your "brotherhood" would be bursting at the seams. Unions need to have vigourous regulations well after they get voted in. Quit standing up for the unqualified worker. Need to find a balance between long term viability and number of jobs. Allow management to step in and help during non standard high volume production.
What I keep saying is all manufacturing jobs are on the decline because of the current economic model that pools the wealth at the top. Unions have always been only a % of the total manufacturing job pool. As we lose millions of manufacturing jobs non union and union; the % of union jobs will go down Right?
You keep calling American workers unqualified, but for ever cog and sprocket that is made or assembled; we have 100s of people employed from low level assemblers up to designers, engineers, machine repair and so on. and we add to our GDP RIGHT? Why give the job to China so the top 3% can get richer.
You mis-understood me. I never called all Americans unqualified. Unions stand up for individual workers who are lazy or have slow or no work ethic. Show up late or cause problems. Slow learners or never learners. Thats what I was talking about when I said unqualified.
I know that an organized work force scars the hell out of you 3% guys or you $250k and up guys. Companies that move overseas should be taxed to hell and companies that stay in the US should have vary low taxes. If companies move overseas for the cheep labor the items that they send back to the states should be taxed to hell.
The bottom line is the majority of the people are sick of the top 3% controlling the economic and political landscape for personal gain. The middle class majority will keep organizing and we will keep targeting the senators and congress men that do not conform to the will of the majority.
Supply and demand would push min wage beyond our ability to buy and SELL to the rest of the world. Its not like our autos are worth what we pay for them even now. Thats why some need such a thing called GAP insurance. I can remember the day when I used to be able to get a combo meal for under $5....now I spend damn near ten bucks on lunch on combo meal. Whats it gonna be like in another five years?
How long has your free to go one way market been in place and still you free market guys are bitching about $5 dollar gas and $10 dollar happy meals? They told you that supply and demand pushed gas to $5 dollars; not true, it was deregulation of the commodities market. The free markets just like the roads you drive needs checks and balances. You cant have a completely free market if you do you will have massive taxpayer bailouts, ran away fuel markets, housing bubblesand the list gos on.
Still waiting for someone to tell me why I am wrong in my earlier post about lower class. Thats what I hate most about youtube...someone can call you an idiot but never explain why your an idiot. Im here for real debate. Person that called me out is suddenly silent on the subject. Grow up people!
OK panama, I'll give it a shot. First of all this position youv'e taken is quite litterally fascist. What % of the population would you like living in squaller in your perfect world? 15-25% ? Other than lots of bodies to enforce our global empire how does this help our society? What tax revenue do we collect from the poor? Welfare costs? medicaid costs? As taxes are increased to cover these expenses and deficits explode, wont that lead to your primary concern? Inflation? What about crime rates
I would reply by saying that we have always had the correct % except during the depression now and the late 20's. So my theory or argument has already proven NOT to get out of hand. We've had...at least in my lifetime a "healthy" lower class. Growing up, my family was in that class. I do agree that the percentage should be 5-10% lower than it is now. If everybody had enough money to buy a brand new $20k car then soon we wouldn't have any 20k cars any more and min wage would have to be $15hr.
My last point is the culture of intimidation at a non-union shop. I knew an old man recovering from heart surgery, once the (company) doctor released him from light duty he was placed on the hardest job in the plant. They were actually willing to kill this man to get him off the books. This was routine for people recovering from surgeries. We also had a list of set prices you would get for lost body parts. I think a finger was worth $300. If people are desperate for work they will endure alot.
the non-union plant that I worked at for 13 years had an excellent health and safety program. I tore some cartilidge in my wrist in a non work injury. They wouldnt let me come back to work even though I have full range of motion. I have a few permanent work restrictions but they wouldn't take me back unless my doctor released me 100%. Unions are no guarantee of safety or Wages. Ive already made that point and supported it with a story.
Now as for relying on OSHA for safety in my personal experience I worked at a non-union factory for a major US company. I was just a kid and was working with hazerdous chemicals with no PPE, our plant manager lied to our faces and said the plant was carcinigan free. In 9 years OSHA never set foot in our plant and we were instructed (threatened) as to what to tell them if they did show up.
3% of the workforce while I was there died of cancer. 2% of the workforce suffered catastrophic injury
I hear this argument alot that unions had their place years ago, now jobs are safer and we have OSHA. Probably within a decade there will be no union factory jobs in the US. After the will of the workforce has been broken you will see the gains we have made over the decades slowly slip away. In the last few years many have lost 401k matches, rising health ins. premiums, no proffit sharing, workmans comp rules have been skewed to favor employers, FML rule changes and comp time instead of overtime
I challenge you to make a good argument to convince me Im wrong. Why, would having no existing lower class help our economy on say a 15- 20 year cycle? If that were the case how much would a 2000 square foot home cost in California?
how very ignorant of you. what you present here is a topical and baseless accusation to which has no bearing on the current political scene. you show a clear lack of understanding of the effects of a free market system.
Understand this, in the first 10 years of NAFTA over 1 million US manufacturing jobs were lost to Mexico. That was tollerable when there was a healthy real estate market for construction workers. The housing bubble has burst, so what other effect can this "free market " have than extreme poverty. Trade tarrifs were in place for decades for a reason.
Ya and the housing bubble burst because of your fellow democrat's thouroughly inteligent plan to make sure every American could own a home no matter if they could afford it or not. Now we have surplus homes and thanks to $5 per gallon fuel prices nobody can afford the homes. If we had things your way we'd eventually be paying $15 for a hamburger at Wendys because you'd raise minimum wage as high as possible. DUH
The cause was greed. The idea that banks were forced to make bad loans is nothing more than slight of hand, (talking points) It was preditory lending. Credit card companies make all their proffits off poor people that make minimum payments. The same motives apply here.
There was no oversight, fly by night lenders made bad and fraudulent loans and sold them to hedge funds. Take interest only loans. Did the democrats force banks to come up with this shit? BTW Im not a Democrat,
right, and I would argue it was not as much that they were forced to make bad loans as it was that through acts such as the CRA and the repealing of the glass-steagal act in 99, they were more easily allowed to. in a free market system, regulation needs to exist only to protect the people and the economy from fraudulent and unethical business practices. the government's only role should be to enforce legal contracts and disallow fraudulent practices which victimize people.
maybe you can explain to me how the abolition of an australian ballot system is a beneficial measure? to me it sounds like government endorsed union intimidation.
What most undermines the present process is that employers can violate the law in numerous ways without consequences. Under EFCA, however, every illegal action has the potential to be costly for either side, so firings, spying, threats, or other forms of intimidation would be less likely.
so all this does is take the intimidation from the employers, the ones who make payroll, and gives it to the unions, the ones who take payroll. I personally don't see a win here. abolition of the secret ballot is an unamerican proposition to its core. Unions put a monopoly on labor so that they can collect fees, slow production, and force businesses to pay workers more than they're worth. think about it, why do they want the members to make more? so they have more to take from.
Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, whenever a petition shall have been filed by an employee or group of employees or any individual or labor organization acting in their behalf alleging that a majority of employees in a unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining wish to be represented by an individual or labor organization for such purposes,
If you think I have issues with ignorance, you just convinced me that you have quite an abundance of ignorance when it comes to Unions. As Flux stated, secret ballots are not an issue-you're spreading myths. We just voted on how our pay increase is to be spent - but our dues didn't increase. After rereading your comment, I think ignorant is a kind way to describe your description of how Unions operate and work.
the secret ballots come into play only when organization of the union is in question. of course the bill has yet to be passed and it's right there is the text so what ever you deem as mythical, I'm not sure of.
If that's what you got out of reading it, then you could probably use a little help understanding it. If you did take the time to read it, you get a big "thumbs up" from me. People who just believe what they read/hear without doing any research on their own really hack me off.
Fiction: The "legislation would end the rights of employees to secret ballot elections." Center for Union Facts
FACT: The Employee Free Choice Act does not abolish elections or "secret ballots." Under the proposed legislation, workers get to choose the union formation process—elections or majority sign-up. Under current law, the choice to recognize a union rests only with employers.
What the Employee Free Choice Act does is prevent an employer manipulating the flawed system to influence the election outcome. When faced with organizing campaigns: 25 percent of employers illegally fire pro-union workers; 51 percent of employers illegally threaten to close down worksites if the union prevails; and, 34 percent of employers coerce workers into opposing the union with bribes and favoritism.
This is by far not a free market, that's half of the problem, we've been practicing deficit, invisible hand economics since the fall of the stock market in 1929, and even before that the Federal reserve was greasing the wheels which helped lead to the depression in the first place.
No argument here, I could go on for hours about the Fed. Im a big Ron Paul fan, but he had some screwy ideas about free markets. Usually when a republican invokes the free market argument it really means lets let the corporations do what ever they want. Historically corporations display sociopathic behavior. So there needs to be checks and balances.
panama, Your right, union membership is shrinking. As for me, Im a IBEW lineman. My union job isn'tgoing anywhere. They cant get some scab off the street that knows transformer theory and will put his hands on 7000 volt lines. My fear is that people like you in manufacturing will be kicked out of the middle class. I understand the frustration of factory workers. I was a non-union autoworker for 9 years. I was also a UAW man for 5 years. So I have some perspective.
bwy...I respect your experience in your field. I promise you that I haven't worked in manufacturing for 3 years. I have a white collar job now and like you, my job isn't going anywhere. We both know that Unions came to exist back in the days when there were far too many workers than jobs and companys grossly took advantage of their employees in regards to compensation and safety standards. Now we have OSHA....
....and better more skilled workers. I agree that the high number of unemployed tips the balance a little in favor of employers. But, where I fear the biggest threat to our middle class is in fuel prices. If fuel prices stay low our economy can recoup and jobs will come back. I beleive it was fuel prices and housing bubble that ultimately did us in. I also believe that NO president or party could have overcame that combination.
Im gonna take some heat for this next statement but I ultimately believe its true...Our economy needs to have a healthy lower class in order to keep prices low and inflation down. If everyone had money to buy whatever they want then prices will go through the roof.
I only despise unions because of personal experience. And believe me I can think for myself and hate kool aid. When a union rep tells me it flat doesnt matter to him that his plant won't make a single dollar yet the company has deep pockets to pay his ultra high union wages. Seems to me his plant would be a prime candidate for being shut down in not so long term. Thats one reason why I think unions are not good. Stories of laziness from former union workers another reason.
If it matters to you I voted for Clinton back in 92 and have since come to my senses. With issues like gun control, abortion, gay rights, taxes, oh and union's.
I dont care about one party or the other, all I care about is American workers and how we are going to gain some political power to turn back the one way trade policy. The Dodds, Franks and whoever will go if they dont start fighting for the middle class. Your job is not safe; no US worker can compete with countries that have universal health care and workers that work for $35 dollars a week.
Sorry I havent been able to respond to you guys over the last 8 hours or so until now. I WAS BUSY WORKING. Nice to see you guys have the ability to surf fucking youtube all day long. Must be nice to have a cushy union job that allows such. How much of your company's money did you waste today?
It may behoove you to not assume. I make way more than $60 and I have a recession proff job as well. I give you all the right to organize except for taking away secret ballots. If you were a fair minded man you would agree that secret ballots are the only civilized way to get your votes. Anything else is to ceceptable to unfair coersion.
I never even heard of the heritage foundation until I saw this video. I better not go to any more union meetings cause It will just make me hate unions even more.
What part of the fact that I went to a union meeting is "talking points" You are the one who refuses to deal in reality. I brought up two scenerios in which I have dealt with union or former union members. What more do you need?
What is now happening to the American auto industry is the exact same thing that happend to the US steel industry. Foreign govts subsidize their steel industry leaving the Americans at a competitive disadvantage. Only with the automakers their problems are multiplied with rising healthcare costs and drasticly lower sales. But if you want to believe that unions are the problem as the men behind the curtain have asked you to. Then please continue to be willfully ignorant.
Why dont right wingers have a problem with taking $1 billon dollars a day out of Americas economy and sending it to China in support of one of the most communist country in the world to save a buck.
Its not just right wingers..most people will buy from the vendor who offers the product at the most competitive price. Anything else is just stupid. If you can't offer the consumer at a price that is better than someone else that has to ship their product or parts of their product oversees then you better GET WITH THE PROGRAM. If I have a choice to buy from union workers or non union Im picking non union every time cause Im not paying someone to sit on their ass.
You cant have it both ways. Either you have the old Soviet Union ways of economics. Or you have a free market society where consumers have the ability to purchase from competitive companies. We have chosen free market system and thats why your "Family" membership is on the decline and thats why you teamsters are and have been in a panick for several years now.
Will Im a working person guy, and I will support whats good for the middle class. And what has been going on for the past 10 years is not good for American workers, union and non union so to lay the blame at the feet of American workers is wrong.
Do you think your non union job is safe, wrong!! Even working for minimum wage with no benefits you will lose your job and people have lost their jobs to countries that have universal health care and no labor or environmental laws. (China)
Why dont you have a problem with taking $1 billon dollars out of Americas economy and sending it to China in support of one of the most communist country in the world
panamajack, Why is it that not only can you not base your arguments on actual facts but you resort to this right wing tactic that everyone who disagrees with you is a communist. I also noticed you equating union membership with being in the mob.
Just like Limbaugh and Beck, if you cant base an argument on logic and facts then resort to sensationalism and fear.
Ok now your pissing me off..It wasnt the govt that brainwashed me it was Union Reps and former union workers that warned me off. I can think for myself. Its you stupid fucks getting desperate and namecalling that needs addressing. If unions were so awesome you wouldnt be losing membership at an alarming rate. I gave examples of the way I feel and you still say I am just brainwashed. Your both slobbering idiots.
Ultra rich huh? How much is the major unions spending on Democrats to get them to legislate union agendas. Lets talk about Democrats like Chris Dodd (Senator Countrywide) or Barney Frank or Franklin Raines (90 Million over six year period while working for Fanny/Freddy) Its the Left wing loons that are the fat cats. Your desperation gives you away. Union membership will always be on the decline...you better learn to live with it scrub.
Like I said before (this time read it slower so you may one day understand) I went to the union meeting to give it an open mind. All they talked about was how deep the company's pockets were and no talk about long term viability of the company. You talk about GM and Toyota in being affected the same. Toyota and Honda and Kia and Nissan arent asking for federal money. GM and Chrysler not so much. We live in a free market society where competition is real and welcome. Union wages screw competition
Before the economy was pulled out from under the feet of the middle class by the political and trade policies put in place over the past 10 years by the ultra rich power base that you are defending, the big 3 had been putting up billon dollar profits year over year.
The average vested American Toyota worker makes $26 an hour. UAW guys make $28 an hour. An annoying trend you right wingers are up to is you think if you say something over and over enough it makes it true. It doesn't. The Japanees government subsidizes its auto industry in a way that gives it a competitive advantage over the big 3. Same with Korea. Soon the only factory jobs in the US will be the $12 an hour variety if these unfair trade pollicies aren't rectified.
I used to be in a union, and then I took an arrow to the knee...
33Meltora 3 days ago
When I think of labor unions, I think of an adversarial relationship and mutual mistrust that makes building a great organization impossible.
Labor Unions are a powerful force in the decline of American manufacturing
The decline of manufacturing is the decline of a strong middle class.
There was a time when labor unions were necessary. For all the good they once did they now cause destruction of their members and for the organizations they once organized. Their day is past.
SirKnightErrant 4 months ago
15 years huh? Why are you gone?
adamandkatie 9 months ago
"O"FCW for 15 years?? Didn't even know it was the "U"FCW. Imagine that!!! Heritage Foundation and 'Right "to" Work' Committee been paying my bills fo soo.. long I forgot to ask.
BManTyler 11 months ago
Join me in building a wall around Anaheim!
MrMickyMouth 1 year ago
wow this has been kinda hard to stream. There is a lot of stop n go
chasekhaos 1 year ago
I like them with sour cream.
kimchiacid 1 year ago
Another fine piece of propaganda from the heritage foundation. Corporate employers are really the ones who perform these kinds of abuses. There is no factual data I am aware of that indicates unions use the tactics discussed.
achandler1234 1 year ago
Unions are BAD. BAD. BAD.
AlyBlack 1 year ago
how much did they pay you to cut off your balls and put words in your mouth?
fthenewworldorder 2 years ago
ok look i was on an job where 80% petioned for the carpenters went the vote was said and done we went down to 45% it isnt because they"find out for information about the union" it cause the contractor hire labour relation cunsaltants a.k.a union buster and threaten a trerminate employees
zahorejko 2 years ago
lead by example oh wait your union all you know how to do is follow
ford762 2 years ago
ok BWy0874 you want to make personal go back to licking obama ass so you can keep fucking tax payers out of there money unions the new welfare to work program
ford762 2 years ago
i dont get this the union people have no intellectual property in the company they didnt get the funding to start the company yet they think cause they turn a wrench or some other menial job they think they deserve ceo wages. Unions are dead let them go hell they already broke to major car manufacturers
ford762 2 years ago
ford762, This is actually one of the dumbest rants Ive ever read, and thats saying something. Shouldnt you be screaming your incoherant rubbish at a healthcare town hall meeting somewhere? I bet you still have your McCain/ Palin bumper sticker on your 86 camaro. Ignorant redneck piece of shit.
bwy0874 2 years ago
actually i would'nt own a UAW piece of shit vehicle
ford762 2 years ago
Trooper, I bet you have a poster of Milton Friedman hanging in your bedroom. How dare Chomsky speak up against the evils of corporate tyrany. Your right he's a freedom hater. Perhaps you should try some research into the reasons Chavez isn't a big fan of America or the corporations that misrepresent our interests in Venezuala. Research the World banks use of "debt forgivness" to steal resources from 3rd world countries. Try to realize thru your slanted view of issues that there are concequences.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Google "Chicago Boys" LMAO
IWLocal8 2 years ago
If the majority of workers want a union now, there is nothing stopping them from voting for it in a secret ballot. There is no rational justification for this legislation. The Employee Forced Choice Act takes away the right to keep ones vote private, allowing union goons to intimidate workers into signing on. The right to secret ballot is fundamental to democracy.
Worse, the act forces businesses and unions to accept government arbitration in strikes, whether both want it or not.
FAHayek89 2 years ago
Show me where in the current process secret ballots are allowed.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
So let me understand IWLocal8, you are saying that there are NO secret ballot elections now where as an employee can make a decision weather to have a union or not? If that is what you are saying, they have brain washed you but please explain what you mean.
bluedave88 2 years ago
That's exactly what I'm saying. The NLR Act of 1935 is what we use today. In it there is no place for a secret ballot. Look it up for yourself instead of being one of the sheeple who believe these Big Business-financially funded frauds. MOST of their vids (NRTW,Unionfacts,etc) will only allow for anti-union posts to be made. They censor their remarks while claiming to be for everyone's rights. I guess that means Freedom of Speech unless you disagree with them.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
let some union fuck harass me at home be a dead union fuck
hatinlif 2 years ago
OK panama, your'e probably smarter than I give you credit for. I think the diference between u and me is u were lucky enough to not have been victimized by a large corporation. You have had some negative experiences with unions but they probably pale in comparison to the atrocities I witnessed. And its not just small companies. I worked for the largest equipment manufacturer in the world. If u ever experienced the dehuminizing culture of one of these companies then u might see things different.
bwy0874 2 years ago
With the EFCA unions are trying to remove the SECRET BALLOT, but to decertify the unions you guys still would like to have the Secret ballot in play. Why is it fair to have it one way and not the other? That just shows another example of the desperation union supporters are using to further their agenda.
panamajack9 2 years ago
There is NO SECRET BALLOT currently in place to be removed!! This LIE shows the desperation that companies are using to take away rights of working people. Another observation - many vids that oppose the EFCA don't allow comments to be posted without being "approved". Further shows that we're dealing with people who refuse to discuss the FACTS.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
We all base our beliefs and world view on our own personal examples and experiences. Who doesn't? I'm in a different line of work now so its unlikely that I'll ever have further personal experience with either union or non-union issues. I do believe that 100 years ago there was a strong need for unions. Going back 20 years or so I don't believe the need is so strong on a large scale. There are a handfull of small companies that still take advantage of employees but are the exception nt the rule
panamajack9 2 years ago
Thus the main reason union membership IMO is dwindling. I can only base my beliefs on my own experiences. I assume there are a few unions IE the law Enforcement officers....where they know they have very limited funding. Everyone I had talked to that came over to our non union aluminum plant had 90% bad things to say about the union that represented them. Its too bad that from my personal examples you still infer that I am just weak minded. More people are non union than union...Were all weak?
panamajack9 2 years ago
To answer your ? If I was a business owner I would do everything possible to keep my workers non-union. That means competitive wages, good benefits, and a healthy working environment. You see labor unions benefit all working people. When the unions are gone, then what? I'll give you a homework assignment because Im tired of explaining things to you. Research Toyota's plan to "realign wages" in Kentucky. This is a sample of what this country can expect without the protection of unions.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Unions have 3 functions in our world today. 1. Make money for the Union leaders. 2. Run American companies into the ground. 3. Keep democratic polititions in charge. Thats it!
panamajack9 2 years ago
Answer the question. If you had your own business...would you be in favor of Unions for your business?
panamajack9 2 years ago
Im not beating this dead horse with you. Im not changing your opinion, and vise versa. What I want to know is who shaped this draconian, corporitist world view of yours? Sara Palin? Joe the Plumner.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Actually..the answer is that union rep that I already told you about. He played a key role in helping me shape my world view that dwells in realizms and not fantasy.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Its very telling to me that your greatest influence was a negative experience you had with some jerkoff that probalbly wasnt fit to represent his union. The person I credit most with shaping my view of this country is Noam Chomsky. A highly revered scholar. I reallize that your not very bright and the fact that you cannot site one prominent conservative mind tells me that your opinions are uneducated and probably came mostly from watching fox news.
bwy0874 2 years ago
@bwy0874 "The person I credit most with shaping my view of this country is Noam Chomsky."
Chomsky criticizes containerization. That indicates how poor his judgment of economic issues is.
hitssquad 2 years ago
Yes, you are in great company with your admiration of Chomsky. Hugo Chavez also respects and admires Noam. Chavez loves Chomsky so much that he held up one of Noam's books when he addressed the United Nations in 2006.
Chomsky is another one of those American born communists that is little more than a parasite. He feeds on the naivete of pseudo intellectuals like yourself.
TrooperRaven 2 years ago
I wonder if you started your own business if your feelings would still be the same. My money says NO. I never said EVERYBODY should be poor as you had infered...I said in essence that we kind of need a healthy lower class (as we have always had) Our structure can't support $1200-1800/month mortgages combined with $600/ month car payments. If your not satisfied with your wage...shop around or upgrade your skills. But let the free market decide the pay scale. Just my opinion.
panamajack9 2 years ago
My question to you pro-corporate, union busting conservatives is this. The labor movement has had many renowned scholars that have campaigned on our behalf such as Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Gore Vidal and many more.
So who are the modern ideological pillars of the conservative movement? And dont say Jesus because he would have been in the carpenters union.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Hmmm...all those scholars and membership still dropping? When you can change the dynamics of the world economic structure thats one thing...You see I prefer to deal in REALITY...You may think about trying that out some time...I highly recomend it. You can't....we can't increase incomes or wages around the world, but since we must compete with them..... (sucks for us) I mean after all they have a huge body of water to overcome that should give us an advantage to start out with.
panamajack9 2 years ago
The idiocy of this post is shocking. Everyone knows union membership in the manufacturing and transportation sectors is shrinking. The corporations own this country and the downward pressure on wages and organizing is evident. But does that make it right for our country just because its the current trend?
You say I dont deal with reallity, but I would argue that people like you are simple minded weaklings afraid to fight for the gains that have been made for the working class.
bwy0874 2 years ago
It is amazing to me how the conservative culture in this country has become so brainwashed by Fox News, Limbaugh, and other talking heads that they will vote against their best interest in the name of gay mariage, guns, or abortion. Why do you invoke the "free trade" argument on behalf of multi-national corporations at the behest of the working class. NAFTA , China's favored nation trading status and other free trade plans have raped this country of jobs in return for cheap crap at Walmart
bwy0874 2 years ago
Apparently you haven't got a picture in your head about my point yet. If you can get Union Reps to seriously think about and act towards maintaining LONG TERM viability then I wouldnt be so against unions.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Thats not hateful at all. So lets just give everybody 300,000 and see how long it takes for our structure to fail. Hell $20 a person to have lunch at McDonalds....that sounds pretty cool. I didn't say American companies 'should' compete I said they fucking 'are' so you may as well learn to deal with it. If I decide to start a business and I find out that someone from TIMBUCK2 is selling the same product in my same market for 30% less than me I better get with the fucking program or get out.
panamajack9 2 years ago
OK, lets continue the current trend of outsourcing jobs to foreign sweatshops. We just wont build anything in America.
The average wage in China is $160 a month. In India it is $150. A high level job may pay as much as $1000 a month. In India 94% of the population earns near their minimum wage level. That is why we had tarriffs to protect the integrity of the American market. Why anyone would support this race to the bottom you suggest is beyond me.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Mortgage backed securities have little to do with people that purchased ARM's (some multiple for flipping) disregarding their balloon payments thinking they could sell the house before the rate increased. Groups like ACORN have pushed for housing for minorities for years. There were Government regulations from the Clinton years that mandated that a certain % of a banks loans had to be to underpriviledged customers.
panamajack9 2 years ago
If you dont know what a mortgage backed security is then why post? A MBS is a whole bunch of mortgages bunched together to form a fund. They are bought from primary lenders and they contain sub-prime loans including ARMs. So I would surmize that mortgage backed securities have a little to do with people that purchased ARMs.
As for this government mandated minority lending, 85% of the sub-prime loans came from the private sector. So when you hear Rush crying about Acorn consider the source.
bwy0874 2 years ago
And Union reps and leaders aren't greedy? come on...I wasn't born yesterday. Its you that doesnt get it. If unions were so hot the membership trend would be going up not down. Less desperate not more....Its not just the steel mill...it was the union meeting that I attended that sealed it in my head. He said something like "I know the plant that I work at is losing money but Alcoa has deep pockets so it doesn't matter" Thats what convinced me scrub.
panamajack9 2 years ago
OK, I get it, you dont like unions, whatever. Jesus Christ its like debating a 12 year old. I dispell all of your points and have easily whipped your ass on every argument and you still dont know when your'e outclassed. A little advise, stay down. Your making yourself look silly
bwy0874 2 years ago
Funny. You haven't dispelled ONE of my points. You say I pulled facts out of my ass but my ass pulled facts were closer than your "corrected" facts. ( that doesnt count as being dispelled ) The fact is that American consumers can get products from Oversees or other countries, like it or not you must take that into consideration. You run out of talking points so you self assess that you won the argument and compare me to a kid. Im smarter than that. You have an uphill battle I don't.
panamajack9 2 years ago
OK asshole here we go. First off you were wrong about union wages raising car prices. The average UAW produced car has $2400 in labor costs. 93% of vehicle production costs are raw materials, 6% labor wages, 1% energy. Now its funny that I know more about why the steel mill you talk about moved to China than you do. It is a public relations problem for a large US company to move to China so they say its the unions fault and move to the worlds largest steel market for windfall profits
bwy0874 2 years ago
You said the banking crisis was caused by democrats forcing banks to make bad loans, more bullshit. I had to explain the whole mortgage backed securities in hedge funds scam, but I doubt you understood.
"Am I supposed to think all union reps dont give a shit about profits for companies"
Apparently so, you heard one jerk off shoot off at the mouth at a meeting and suddenly your an authority on unions.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Lets not forget your fascist belief that we should maintain a poor working class as a hedge against inflation. I should have stopped debating you right there. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you say that hateful shit. But that explains why you think American workers should compete for jobs with 3rd world countrties. In all seriousness Im just tired of talking to someone that cant carry on an intellectual debate, you are extremely immature, and your points are simplistic and niave.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Curb weight- Chrysler Towne and country = 3,899 lbs... 2008 Honda Accord = 3299 lbs. Nice for you to use the capacity weight to prove your point....I do my homework ...FYI cars probably have at least 1000 lbs of plastics and other material. So I'd say my initial story is closer than the one you TRIED to prove me wrong with. Should I be expecting an apology soon? 2008 Chevy Avalance curb weight= 5500. Steel isn't the most expensive cost to produce vehicles bro.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Dont call me bro, buddy. Who cares about the freakin weight. You just dont get it. You keep talking about this steel mill that took off to China. You had some friends there that were thought the union should have saved their jobs. Or the union cost there jobs or whatever. The fact is China has the worlds largest steel market. 3 times more demand than all of North America. Those companies moved the plants over there for greed. To cash in on a hot market. The unions were a scapegoat.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Your only partially right. They moved to China because the climate here is too unfavorable. Unions were not just a scapegoat. They played a key role in the US market that exists today. Am I sopposed to think that all Union reps don't give a shit about profits for the company as long as the company has "Deep Pockets?" Thats a valid point buddy so why don't you address that instead of falsly summizing that you have me down for the count?
panamajack9 2 years ago
I cant argue with someone this stupid, Im done
bwy0874 2 years ago
Of course you cant hang with the likes of me. I come with personal experience and facts and the best you can do is call me stupid and bail. I had you figured for about this caliber. Which isn't saying much. Go flip your breaker switches and keep paying your dues. I just wish you were man enough to admit the real reason your bailing out. Its just like liberal punks when they get outclassed to call the other one stupid.
panamajack9 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Videos to Check Out:
Senator Byron Dorgan - Take This Job And Ship It
Byron Dorgan Crystal Ball
Many experts point to the Financial Modernization Act as the cause of the current financial crisis.
Sen. Byron Dorgan Iraq Waste Floor Speech
The US taxpayers have been taken to the cleaners.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
That is the essence of the organized, non organized argument. Organized puts money in the consumers hands short term but takes it back away when they go to purchase common goods that SHOULD be inexpensive to produce. So now as I make my point about inflation. Perfect example is auto market. As soon as you drive your car off the dealership you depreciate thousands. Thats why so many people need to have Gap insurance.
panamajack9 2 years ago
You did not address the exploitation of workers and the environment in other countries, a Global economy should improve the lives of workers in other countries and ours that was the intent of free trade, and it was not intend to take advantage of foreign workers and American workers. If American workers had universal health care like other competing countries that would be a good start!
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Universal Health care has its problems just like our system does. Maybe some worse problems. Put a cap on Malpractice lawsuits then we can do somthing.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Videos to Check Out:
Senator Byron Dorgan - Take This Job And Ship It
Byron Dorgan Crystal Ball
Many experts point to the Financial Modernization Act as the cause of the current financial crisis.
Sen. Byron Dorgan Iraq Waste Floor Speech
The US taxpayers have been taken to the cleaners.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
panama, Once again your argument isn't very factual. The average UAW produced car takes $2400 worth of labor to build. Rising steel prices have more to do with prices going up. Why is it that you think union wages keep prices high when Toyotas, Fords, Hondas, and Chevys all cost about the same. Just because something sounds logical to you doesn't make it true. You guys need to do your own research and quit releying on the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world for your info.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Thats horse crap...steel in most cars comes to about 1500-200 lbs. Don't try to tell me that costs ten grand. I can tell you the union Steel mill that was in my city has been dis assembled and moved to China. Union labor managed to wreak havok on that plant.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Thats supposed to be 2000 lbs. OK BWY lets hear your version of the negative aspects of organized workers. Lets see if you can be objective. I doubt it.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Uh ya, my pick up wieghs 7200 lbs my wifes car is 5700lbs Im guessing most of that is steel. You gotta stop pulling these facts out of your ass. Raw materials make up the vast majority of auto costs. As for the negatives of a union shop, the biggest for me is poor managment to employee relationship. In a non-union shop as long as your obediant and submissive you can get along pretty well with the boss. There are also a few that take advantage of union protection, but we police them ourselves.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Id much rather buy my goods in the US. Whether we like it or not you operate in a Global economy and to nut understand THAT is narrow minded. You may like your short term union labor. What happens when a competitor opens up shop accross the street and never goes union. That spells doom for the union labor cause you will never concede wages. You will resort to threatening the employees of the shop accross the street.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Hay I make a good liven, but I know that you need to put money in the hands of the consumers. Like Obama said in his speech the other day, trickle UP economics benefits the most people and its the best way to kick start the economy for now. Dont be so rigid on the Wal-Mart lowest price at al cost economic model.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Some people will do and say anything to save buck, but this thinking is narrow minded and its a house of cards and we are seeing the aftermath with mass job loss. And the low paying service jobs that have replaced the good paying manufacturing jobs will only put more downward pressure on the middle class and the economy. I know if youre looking down on the middle class trickle down economics looks good.
(cont.)
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Well Put!
bwy0874
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
The US is a business dominated society. Human rights are subordinated to the overriding need of proffit for investors. Decisions are placed in the hands of unaccountable private tyranies to the extent that even democratic government is nothing more than the shaddow cast over society by corporations. Economic policy is geared for the transfer of wealth and power to those that already have it. The one countermeasure the working class has in the labor movement.- Chomsky.
bwy0874 2 years ago
If America does not manufacture and sell goods, then money only leaves the country. The U.S. now imports twice as much as it exports. This has resulted in a trade deficit that has ballooned to an unprecedented $800 billion on an annualized basis. Unfortunately, this trend shows no signs of abating. U.S. exports are declining versus imports all across the board. Even agriculture posted a deficit this past year for the first time in living memory.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that If I can find a better price abroad then thats where I am gonna buy my goods from. If they can ship my product oversees and still give me a better price than you can do it from accross the street from me then something is wrong and YOU better fix it if you want to stay in business.
panamajack9 2 years ago
jack9
That may be but at what cost, look at the swine flu farms in Mexico, the big farms and manufactures move to Mexico and other countries to get around environmental and labor laws. So youre saying manufactures can no longer take advantage of American workers because unions have provide union and non union workers with labor laws so they should move overseas and take advantage of other countries workers so you can save a buck.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
America may gain access to cheaper products through outsourcing, but it also comes with attendant problems, including a downward pressure on wages. Laid-off manufacturing laborers are largely switching into lower-paying jobs in the service industry. Where they once made an average of $51,000 annually, they now make $16,000 in leisure and hospitality, $33,000 in health care, or $39,000 in construction
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Look at Mr.Coffee. Used to be made in the US with Union labor getting paid $21/hr. They moved the operation to Mexico and paid about $2.50/hr. That wa too much so they moved to China and dished out 21 cents a day. All the time they never dropped the price of a coffee maker. It's about profit, not producing a cheaper product for the consumer's benefit.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Admirers of globalization contend that freer access to foreign markets and cheap labor increase corporate profits and thereby benefit the U.S. economy. While this argument may superficially sound compelling, it ignores the dangerous long-term effects of manufacturing losses. In reality, outsourcing makes Americans poorer over time, because Americas wealth and technology slowly migrate to other nations.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
At the dawn of globalization, the elimination of trade barriers opened up access to foreign markets for American manufacturers in return for building factories abroad. In due course, more and more manufacturers set up shop overseas, producing goods to be sold to Americans. Today, the trend is so severe, analysts predict that in some industries, a quarter to a half of all non union and union jobs are likely to migrate
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Considering the stupendous list of Americas manufacturing achievements and the vulnerabilities associated with foreign dependence when a nation lacks strong domestic manufacturing, it is alarming when economists are warning that the U.S. is facing the gutting, hollowing out and closing down of American manufacturing forever
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
However, manufacturing as a share of the economy has been plummeting. In 1965, manufacturing accounted for 53 percent of the economy. By 1988 it only accounted for 39 percent, and in 2004, it accounted for just 9 percent and so on.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
On the back of this industrial output rose Americas middle class. High-paying manufacturing jobs, in turn, helped spur a robust and growing economy that depended little on foreign nations for manufactured goods and armaments.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
During this period, many American icons were born. Companies like General Motors, Ford, Boeing, Maytag and Levi Strauss became household names. American manufacturing became synonymous with quality and ingenuity.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
For over a half century, American manufacturing has dominated the globe. It turned the tide in World War ii and hastened the defeat of Nazi Germany; it subsequently helped rebuild Europe and Japan; it enabled the United States to outlast the Soviet empire in the Cold War. At the same time, it met all the material needs of the American people.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Don't be fooled. Unions are in cahoots with the mob (recognize the tactics?), and Big Labor is in bed with the Democrat Party, which never met an unconstitutional Big Government intrusion it didn't like. Unions have destroyed the education system and auto industries, made us uncompetetive in the world economy, all the while claiming it's the fault of the free market and more government control is "for your own good." Get the facts! The Heritage Foundation has a a great website about this.
oneloved1 2 years ago
The thought of an organized work force strikes fear in the hearts of the Washington power base and the GOP base, we need to take our government back from the big business fat cats that have been controlling Washington with their money.
And I ask how do we take back our government, do we do it as individuals or do we do it as a grass roots special interest group or as worker unions.
Of the three options the only one they fear is working family unions!!
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
In cahoots with the mob? Is this a joke? As far as the union ruining education, our government gets what it pays for, and they do not want an enlightened public capable of criticle thinking. They want obediant consumers, but after reading your post I think Im probably talking over your head. Cant wait to check out that heritage found. website. Im courious of what the nazi party is up to these days. Well I gotta go, need to get my union dues to Pauly Walnuts.
bwy0874 2 years ago
The bottom line is that if unions truly did fight for the middle class membership would not be to this day the lowest it has been in many, many years. And don't try to blame big business. People think for themselves alot more than you give them credit for.
panamajack9 2 years ago 2
Unions and the middle class side with and vote for demarcates more often because they side with the Majority IE. The middle class more often not all the time but more often then the GOP, and the republicans GOP sides with big business it is just true. Big business has money to buy votes and the middle class has Unions and organized labor for voting power. The working class has the GOP on the run. So I say keep them running and soon they will see its the majority that they should be catering to.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Comment removed
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
When I took the position of Political Advisor for our 1100 member Union, one of the very first things my contact at the AFL-CIO told me was that they do not support one political party. They will support whoever will help out Working Families. It's amazing to see how much money is being spent on keeping peoples' wages low. (i.e. ABC - the anti-union's ...union)
IWLocal8 2 years ago
The market should always determine wages. If you don't like the pay or benefits of the place your with go find another place that pays better. Because of union labor there are tons of opportunities right?
panamajack9 2 years ago
As a worker if you want to get motivated check out the youtube video: AFL-CIO Trumka : HECK YES Working People Angry on Economy
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
the Board shall investigate the petition. If the Board finds that a majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for bargaining has signed valid authorizations designating the individual or labor organization specified in the petition as their bargaining representative and that no other individual or labor organization is currently certified or recognized as the exclusive representative of any of the employees in the unit,
conservatarian57 2 years ago
Other big bucks are being spent by faux-grassroots organizations with misleading names such as the Coalition for a Democratic Workplace and the Center for Union Facts. President Barack Obama was not exaggerating when he said, recently, that the business community considers EFCA the devil incarnate
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has promised to spend $10 million opposing the Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA), the proposed federal law that would allow workers to form unions based on a showing of majority support, sometimes referred to as a card check election.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Dont come back with your scare tactics, the current economic model is to maximize profits and keep the wealth pooled at the top and then keep the country and the middle class in debt. Then they have their soldiers hammer down wages, divide the work force and make people think its for their own good.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
you keep saying that the ultimate answer is to organize everyone into the unions. The same organization that has been on the decline for 10-15 years. If that were the cure all, your "brotherhood" would be bursting at the seams. Unions need to have vigourous regulations well after they get voted in. Quit standing up for the unqualified worker. Need to find a balance between long term viability and number of jobs. Allow management to step in and help during non standard high volume production.
panamajack9 2 years ago
What I keep saying is all manufacturing jobs are on the decline because of the current economic model that pools the wealth at the top. Unions have always been only a % of the total manufacturing job pool. As we lose millions of manufacturing jobs non union and union; the % of union jobs will go down Right?
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
You keep calling American workers unqualified, but for ever cog and sprocket that is made or assembled; we have 100s of people employed from low level assemblers up to designers, engineers, machine repair and so on. and we add to our GDP RIGHT? Why give the job to China so the top 3% can get richer.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
You mis-understood me. I never called all Americans unqualified. Unions stand up for individual workers who are lazy or have slow or no work ethic. Show up late or cause problems. Slow learners or never learners. Thats what I was talking about when I said unqualified.
panamajack9 2 years ago
I know that an organized work force scars the hell out of you 3% guys or you $250k and up guys. Companies that move overseas should be taxed to hell and companies that stay in the US should have vary low taxes. If companies move overseas for the cheep labor the items that they send back to the states should be taxed to hell.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
The bottom line is the majority of the people are sick of the top 3% controlling the economic and political landscape for personal gain. The middle class majority will keep organizing and we will keep targeting the senators and congress men that do not conform to the will of the majority.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Supply and demand would push min wage beyond our ability to buy and SELL to the rest of the world. Its not like our autos are worth what we pay for them even now. Thats why some need such a thing called GAP insurance. I can remember the day when I used to be able to get a combo meal for under $5....now I spend damn near ten bucks on lunch on combo meal. Whats it gonna be like in another five years?
panamajack9 2 years ago
How long has your free to go one way market been in place and still you free market guys are bitching about $5 dollar gas and $10 dollar happy meals? They told you that supply and demand pushed gas to $5 dollars; not true, it was deregulation of the commodities market. The free markets just like the roads you drive needs checks and balances. You cant have a completely free market if you do you will have massive taxpayer bailouts, ran away fuel markets, housing bubblesand the list gos on.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Still waiting for someone to tell me why I am wrong in my earlier post about lower class. Thats what I hate most about youtube...someone can call you an idiot but never explain why your an idiot. Im here for real debate. Person that called me out is suddenly silent on the subject. Grow up people!
panamajack9 2 years ago
OK panama, I'll give it a shot. First of all this position youv'e taken is quite litterally fascist. What % of the population would you like living in squaller in your perfect world? 15-25% ? Other than lots of bodies to enforce our global empire how does this help our society? What tax revenue do we collect from the poor? Welfare costs? medicaid costs? As taxes are increased to cover these expenses and deficits explode, wont that lead to your primary concern? Inflation? What about crime rates
bwy0874 2 years ago
I would reply by saying that we have always had the correct % except during the depression now and the late 20's. So my theory or argument has already proven NOT to get out of hand. We've had...at least in my lifetime a "healthy" lower class. Growing up, my family was in that class. I do agree that the percentage should be 5-10% lower than it is now. If everybody had enough money to buy a brand new $20k car then soon we wouldn't have any 20k cars any more and min wage would have to be $15hr.
panamajack9 2 years ago
My last point is the culture of intimidation at a non-union shop. I knew an old man recovering from heart surgery, once the (company) doctor released him from light duty he was placed on the hardest job in the plant. They were actually willing to kill this man to get him off the books. This was routine for people recovering from surgeries. We also had a list of set prices you would get for lost body parts. I think a finger was worth $300. If people are desperate for work they will endure alot.
bwy0874 2 years ago
the non-union plant that I worked at for 13 years had an excellent health and safety program. I tore some cartilidge in my wrist in a non work injury. They wouldnt let me come back to work even though I have full range of motion. I have a few permanent work restrictions but they wouldn't take me back unless my doctor released me 100%. Unions are no guarantee of safety or Wages. Ive already made that point and supported it with a story.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Now as for relying on OSHA for safety in my personal experience I worked at a non-union factory for a major US company. I was just a kid and was working with hazerdous chemicals with no PPE, our plant manager lied to our faces and said the plant was carcinigan free. In 9 years OSHA never set foot in our plant and we were instructed (threatened) as to what to tell them if they did show up.
3% of the workforce while I was there died of cancer. 2% of the workforce suffered catastrophic injury
bwy0874 2 years ago
I'd be interested in knowing the long term health risks as well. I hope you didn't get enough into your system to cause you any ill effects.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
I hear this argument alot that unions had their place years ago, now jobs are safer and we have OSHA. Probably within a decade there will be no union factory jobs in the US. After the will of the workforce has been broken you will see the gains we have made over the decades slowly slip away. In the last few years many have lost 401k matches, rising health ins. premiums, no proffit sharing, workmans comp rules have been skewed to favor employers, FML rule changes and comp time instead of overtime
bwy0874 2 years ago 3
OK now we are getting to the heart of panamajack9 and the GOPs ideology. Keep the poor, poor and the money at the top.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
I challenge you to make a good argument to convince me Im wrong. Why, would having no existing lower class help our economy on say a 15- 20 year cycle? If that were the case how much would a 2000 square foot home cost in California?
panamajack9 2 years ago
It's the Republican mantra - "Spread the Poverty"
IWLocal8 2 years ago
how very ignorant of you. what you present here is a topical and baseless accusation to which has no bearing on the current political scene. you show a clear lack of understanding of the effects of a free market system.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
Understand this, in the first 10 years of NAFTA over 1 million US manufacturing jobs were lost to Mexico. That was tollerable when there was a healthy real estate market for construction workers. The housing bubble has burst, so what other effect can this "free market " have than extreme poverty. Trade tarrifs were in place for decades for a reason.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Ya and the housing bubble burst because of your fellow democrat's thouroughly inteligent plan to make sure every American could own a home no matter if they could afford it or not. Now we have surplus homes and thanks to $5 per gallon fuel prices nobody can afford the homes. If we had things your way we'd eventually be paying $15 for a hamburger at Wendys because you'd raise minimum wage as high as possible. DUH
panamajack9 2 years ago
The cause was greed. The idea that banks were forced to make bad loans is nothing more than slight of hand, (talking points) It was preditory lending. Credit card companies make all their proffits off poor people that make minimum payments. The same motives apply here.
There was no oversight, fly by night lenders made bad and fraudulent loans and sold them to hedge funds. Take interest only loans. Did the democrats force banks to come up with this shit? BTW Im not a Democrat,
bwy0874 2 years ago
right, and I would argue it was not as much that they were forced to make bad loans as it was that through acts such as the CRA and the repealing of the glass-steagal act in 99, they were more easily allowed to. in a free market system, regulation needs to exist only to protect the people and the economy from fraudulent and unethical business practices. the government's only role should be to enforce legal contracts and disallow fraudulent practices which victimize people.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
conservatarian57
The governments only role should be to enforce legal contracts and disallow fraudulent practices which victimize people
You hit the nail on the head; this is why labor needs the card check option and the government need to enforce it...
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
maybe you can explain to me how the abolition of an australian ballot system is a beneficial measure? to me it sounds like government endorsed union intimidation.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
What most undermines the present process is that employers can violate the law in numerous ways without consequences. Under EFCA, however, every illegal action has the potential to be costly for either side, so firings, spying, threats, or other forms of intimidation would be less likely.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
so all this does is take the intimidation from the employers, the ones who make payroll, and gives it to the unions, the ones who take payroll. I personally don't see a win here. abolition of the secret ballot is an unamerican proposition to its core. Unions put a monopoly on labor so that they can collect fees, slow production, and force businesses to pay workers more than they're worth. think about it, why do they want the members to make more? so they have more to take from.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
Ok get off the secret ballot argument its just not true
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
its absolutely true.
Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, whenever a petition shall have been filed by an employee or group of employees or any individual or labor organization acting in their behalf alleging that a majority of employees in a unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining wish to be represented by an individual or labor organization for such purposes,
conservatarian57 2 years ago
If you think I have issues with ignorance, you just convinced me that you have quite an abundance of ignorance when it comes to Unions. As Flux stated, secret ballots are not an issue-you're spreading myths. We just voted on how our pay increase is to be spent - but our dues didn't increase. After rereading your comment, I think ignorant is a kind way to describe your description of how Unions operate and work.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
the secret ballots come into play only when organization of the union is in question. of course the bill has yet to be passed and it's right there is the text so what ever you deem as mythical, I'm not sure of.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
If that's what you got out of reading it, then you could probably use a little help understanding it. If you did take the time to read it, you get a big "thumbs up" from me. People who just believe what they read/hear without doing any research on their own really hack me off.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Fiction: The "legislation would end the rights of employees to secret ballot elections." Center for Union Facts
FACT: The Employee Free Choice Act does not abolish elections or "secret ballots." Under the proposed legislation, workers get to choose the union formation process—elections or majority sign-up. Under current law, the choice to recognize a union rests only with employers.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
all from the actual text.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
What the Employee Free Choice Act does is prevent an employer manipulating the flawed system to influence the election outcome. When faced with organizing campaigns: 25 percent of employers illegally fire pro-union workers; 51 percent of employers illegally threaten to close down worksites if the union prevails; and, 34 percent of employers coerce workers into opposing the union with bribes and favoritism.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
the Board shall not direct an election but shall certify the individual or labor organization as the representative described in subsection
sorry about its order.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
This is by far not a free market, that's half of the problem, we've been practicing deficit, invisible hand economics since the fall of the stock market in 1929, and even before that the Federal reserve was greasing the wheels which helped lead to the depression in the first place.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
No argument here, I could go on for hours about the Fed. Im a big Ron Paul fan, but he had some screwy ideas about free markets. Usually when a republican invokes the free market argument it really means lets let the corporations do what ever they want. Historically corporations display sociopathic behavior. So there needs to be checks and balances.
bwy0874 2 years ago
If the Republicans were still in the Oval office, it would have EVERYthing to do with the current political scene.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
no, because it is a baseless ad hominem attack of talking points and a display of economic naivete.
conservatarian57 2 years ago
panama, Your right, union membership is shrinking. As for me, Im a IBEW lineman. My union job isn'tgoing anywhere. They cant get some scab off the street that knows transformer theory and will put his hands on 7000 volt lines. My fear is that people like you in manufacturing will be kicked out of the middle class. I understand the frustration of factory workers. I was a non-union autoworker for 9 years. I was also a UAW man for 5 years. So I have some perspective.
bwy0874 2 years ago
bwy...I respect your experience in your field. I promise you that I haven't worked in manufacturing for 3 years. I have a white collar job now and like you, my job isn't going anywhere. We both know that Unions came to exist back in the days when there were far too many workers than jobs and companys grossly took advantage of their employees in regards to compensation and safety standards. Now we have OSHA....
panamajack9 2 years ago
....and better more skilled workers. I agree that the high number of unemployed tips the balance a little in favor of employers. But, where I fear the biggest threat to our middle class is in fuel prices. If fuel prices stay low our economy can recoup and jobs will come back. I beleive it was fuel prices and housing bubble that ultimately did us in. I also believe that NO president or party could have overcame that combination.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Im gonna take some heat for this next statement but I ultimately believe its true...Our economy needs to have a healthy lower class in order to keep prices low and inflation down. If everyone had money to buy whatever they want then prices will go through the roof.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Its ok for you to hate unions but dont deny the majority the right organize.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
I only despise unions because of personal experience. And believe me I can think for myself and hate kool aid. When a union rep tells me it flat doesnt matter to him that his plant won't make a single dollar yet the company has deep pockets to pay his ultra high union wages. Seems to me his plant would be a prime candidate for being shut down in not so long term. Thats one reason why I think unions are not good. Stories of laziness from former union workers another reason.
panamajack9 2 years ago
If it matters to you I voted for Clinton back in 92 and have since come to my senses. With issues like gun control, abortion, gay rights, taxes, oh and union's.
panamajack9 2 years ago
federal minimum wage to $7.25
Sorry $58
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
I dont care about one party or the other, all I care about is American workers and how we are going to gain some political power to turn back the one way trade policy. The Dodds, Franks and whoever will go if they dont start fighting for the middle class. Your job is not safe; no US worker can compete with countries that have universal health care and workers that work for $35 dollars a week.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Sorry I havent been able to respond to you guys over the last 8 hours or so until now. I WAS BUSY WORKING. Nice to see you guys have the ability to surf fucking youtube all day long. Must be nice to have a cushy union job that allows such. How much of your company's money did you waste today?
panamajack9 2 years ago
Cool you made $60 today; maybe you can get some health insurance with that $60 dollars
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
It may behoove you to not assume. I make way more than $60 and I have a recession proff job as well. I give you all the right to organize except for taking away secret ballots. If you were a fair minded man you would agree that secret ballots are the only civilized way to get your votes. Anything else is to ceceptable to unfair coersion.
panamajack9 2 years ago
panamajack9
you are the minority group live with it
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
I never even heard of the heritage foundation until I saw this video. I better not go to any more union meetings cause It will just make me hate unions even more.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Just the fact that an anti middle class entity like the Heritage Foundation is against EFCA should tell people that it is good for the middle class.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
What part of the fact that I went to a union meeting is "talking points" You are the one who refuses to deal in reality. I brought up two scenerios in which I have dealt with union or former union members. What more do you need?
panamajack9 2 years ago
What is now happening to the American auto industry is the exact same thing that happend to the US steel industry. Foreign govts subsidize their steel industry leaving the Americans at a competitive disadvantage. Only with the automakers their problems are multiplied with rising healthcare costs and drasticly lower sales. But if you want to believe that unions are the problem as the men behind the curtain have asked you to. Then please continue to be willfully ignorant.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Why dont right wingers have a problem with taking $1 billon dollars a day out of Americas economy and sending it to China in support of one of the most communist country in the world to save a buck.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Its not just right wingers..most people will buy from the vendor who offers the product at the most competitive price. Anything else is just stupid. If you can't offer the consumer at a price that is better than someone else that has to ship their product or parts of their product oversees then you better GET WITH THE PROGRAM. If I have a choice to buy from union workers or non union Im picking non union every time cause Im not paying someone to sit on their ass.
panamajack9 2 years ago
You cant have it both ways. Either you have the old Soviet Union ways of economics. Or you have a free market society where consumers have the ability to purchase from competitive companies. We have chosen free market system and thats why your "Family" membership is on the decline and thats why you teamsters are and have been in a panick for several years now.
panamajack9 2 years ago
jack9
Ok now Im getting a better picture of you,
You are # 4 and 6 on the list
You are a Ron Paul or Newt Gingrich guy right?
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Will Im a working person guy, and I will support whats good for the middle class. And what has been going on for the past 10 years is not good for American workers, union and non union so to lay the blame at the feet of American workers is wrong.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Do you think your non union job is safe, wrong!! Even working for minimum wage with no benefits you will lose your job and people have lost their jobs to countries that have universal health care and no labor or environmental laws. (China)
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
If your so anti social?
Why dont you have a problem with taking $1 billon dollars out of Americas economy and sending it to China in support of one of the most communist country in the world
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
panamajack, Why is it that not only can you not base your arguments on actual facts but you resort to this right wing tactic that everyone who disagrees with you is a communist. I also noticed you equating union membership with being in the mob.
Just like Limbaugh and Beck, if you cant base an argument on logic and facts then resort to sensationalism and fear.
bwy0874 2 years ago
Yes!! bwy0874
The ultra rich Washington power base propaganda machine has the right side wing nuts like panamajack so brainwashed that they have loss all reason.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Ok now your pissing me off..It wasnt the govt that brainwashed me it was Union Reps and former union workers that warned me off. I can think for myself. Its you stupid fucks getting desperate and namecalling that needs addressing. If unions were so awesome you wouldnt be losing membership at an alarming rate. I gave examples of the way I feel and you still say I am just brainwashed. Your both slobbering idiots.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Ultra rich huh? How much is the major unions spending on Democrats to get them to legislate union agendas. Lets talk about Democrats like Chris Dodd (Senator Countrywide) or Barney Frank or Franklin Raines (90 Million over six year period while working for Fanny/Freddy) Its the Left wing loons that are the fat cats. Your desperation gives you away. Union membership will always be on the decline...you better learn to live with it scrub.
panamajack9 2 years ago
Like I said before (this time read it slower so you may one day understand) I went to the union meeting to give it an open mind. All they talked about was how deep the company's pockets were and no talk about long term viability of the company. You talk about GM and Toyota in being affected the same. Toyota and Honda and Kia and Nissan arent asking for federal money. GM and Chrysler not so much. We live in a free market society where competition is real and welcome. Union wages screw competition
panamajack9 2 years ago
Foreign car markers are getting help for their governments so that point will not hold water.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Before the economy was pulled out from under the feet of the middle class by the political and trade policies put in place over the past 10 years by the ultra rich power base that you are defending, the big 3 had been putting up billon dollar profits year over year.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
The average vested American Toyota worker makes $26 an hour. UAW guys make $28 an hour. An annoying trend you right wingers are up to is you think if you say something over and over enough it makes it true. It doesn't. The Japanees government subsidizes its auto industry in a way that gives it a competitive advantage over the big 3. Same with Korea. Soon the only factory jobs in the US will be the $12 an hour variety if these unfair trade pollicies aren't rectified.
bwy0874 2 years ago
6: They are a socialism fear mongers that have a unfounded fear of social services
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Thanks
You anti's can add to the list with your negative comments
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago