Writers: Why the Fantasy Genre needs to Evolve

[thespiritcoyote]

Talislanta!!!! Still no Elves!

Excellent topic, well played.

I am all for more of the Fantsypunk, Steampunk, Victorian Futurepunk (go Johannes Kepler! The 1500's Sci-Fantasy writer?)

The non-Eurocentric cultural fantasy is under-explored, except when used as washed-out versions of the Mesoamerica, Aboriginal, Asian, Middle Eastern, and India based misconceptions of such culture... sometimes even when the works come from those regions. Non-European does not mean uncivilized or unscientific.

[Skepticktok]

Great insight.

[Swidhelm]

I do have to say I'm generally tired of the comping of age story. The young man thrust into things, and through his learning to be a man, manages to save the day.

[paladindragoongirl18]

I think that writers should research from other countries rich in mythologies. I researched on Russian mythology and so far, I LOVED it. They have the best stories that captured my heart.

Heck, I'm Filipino and I MIGHT write a Filipino mythology but some of them are not my thing and I don't know if readers would actually like Philippine mythology.

[Swidhelm]

@paladindragoongirl18 You never know. You should give it a go. In my writing I draw from many cultures, but also invent my own, and invent mythologies from scratch, though I'm sure they are similar to many real mythologies.

[paladindragoongirl18]

@Swidhelm Researching other mythologies from different countries is a good way to go. Maybe if I write about Philippine mythology, it's like introducing them to other culture's myths and stories.



[Swidhelm]

@paladindragoongirl18 Exactly. Myself I know nothing of Philippine mythology, and I'd imagine many people do not. It would be very refreshing in a fantasy novel. I love that medieval European style, but much of it does get pretty tired after a while--except dragons. I never tire of dragons :P But it's awesome to read about stuff that hasn't been done before, new worlds, new vistas, new creatures, and gods, etc.

[warrioroftheworld01]

You are totally on my level. I used to hate fantasy because every single novel I picked up was the exact same with different names.

So with the fantasy series I am writing, it is crossing over with every other genre u can name while people can relate to it on a real world level.

Really getting into fantasy and science-fiction. Loving it so much!

[paladindragoongirl18]

To be honest, I don't like elves and dwarves. They are just not my thing.

[MyDIZZO]

thnx i love u. that was helpful

[rabzero01]

yes, finally someone who agrees. I hate looking a European fantasys. The stuff is BURNOUT!! (NO OFFENSE) X0

[ZeroMyHero99]

@rabzero01

What about fantasy set in modern-day eastern Europe?

[CazzLovesBooks]

Well I live in Europe (England) and I could not set it anywhere else because I would find it too hard. People says, "write what you know" and I know a lot about Europe so that's what I write.

I agree about some of the other things you said though.

[jprt1990]

Fantasty reader/writer here. I admit I do like the European setting...makes me feel warm and cozy, but it is overdone.

I have definitely always striven to make my fantasy writing as original as possible. I draw from the Middle East, Africa, and Mesoamerica and have invented my own creatures never seen before. I also have tried to stay away from the traditional "quest" and have instead written a more character driven, intimate story that relies more on the social structure of the world.

[Grammeth0123]

Hey childofthemoor, try out any of Nnedi Okorafor's works. She was a winner of the WotF, and her novels are between 200-350 pages, you'll love them. The Shadow Speaker is one, and her first "adult" Fantasy, "Who Fears Death" is such a great book. Without spoiling anything, the book deals with real-world issues such as rape, genocide, and also female genital mutilation. Alot of people love it.

[ZombieHipHop2345]

I have to say I agree with a lot of what you said, but have you tried A Song of Ice and Fire? That literally, by itself reinvigorated my love for fantasy.

[Grammeth0123]

You know, looking back on this video, I feel sad that Fantasy isn't as good as it can be, pre-Tolkien. I've begun to read Fantasy pre-Tolkien such as Gulliver's Travels and even The Tempest. 1001 Arabian Nights and The Faerie Queene. Reading such classics, I'm wondering, why do both readers and writers stop at Tolkien? Makes me glad the first Fantasy author I've read was Robert Jordan.

[paydafee]

agree

I fucking hate elves and dragons. I went historical fantasy. Wuxia chinese warriors, samurai, romans, mayans with laser beams and aircraft, arabian genies, greek mythos, african tribal mythos

[childofthemoor]

@paydafee

Holy shit that's cool.

[tippytop7]

All hail Tolkien, the king of fantasy.

[MyLIfeStudios]

the book i'm writing , the main characters are wolfs , highly intelligent , civilized wolfs that live in a wolf society , with several major cities , and the humans in the book are more nomadic and less civilized

[tippytop7]

@MyLIfeStudios That sounds cool :)

[Buizel88]

your video is very insightful. it's no wonder i can't think of any new ideas without them being either already taken, crappily rewritten, or too cliched. i deeply appreciate this advice.  thanks!

[ravnicrasol]

I agree with your point of view, most fantasies are scrapping over and over those few medieval-Europe kind of myths; causing the beasts to remain mostly the same, barely changing the parameters within their stories. I think it'd be best to mix it up a bit with themes/history the western reader doesn't usually find.

Even though I understand the whole problem, I'm rather new in this whole writing stuff, so I'm not sure what to do; if anyone could lend me a hand with links, I'd appreciate it a lot.

[Millifera1]

And by the way, science fiction is pretty much DEFINED by the use of advanced technology and an extraterrestrial setting/creatures..but as you can see..the setting and weaponry are pretty much the same in all sci-fi stories..very Star Wars feeling in many. Or a cross between fantasy & sci-fi. But you're REFERRING fantasy writers to sci-fi when they have the same "problem." I think fantasy needs NEW creatures & point of view. Tell the story from different pov's & then you'll shed the cliche.

[Millifera1]

My problem with fantasy involves the regurgitated plots/themes/poor writing skills & cardboard characters. All the best stories are character-focused stories. As someone said, this genre is just overrun by lazy, incompetent, & non-creative authors.

The setting shouldn't be an exact replica of medieval Europe. Fantasy, after all, is supposed to be BASED off of real history not SET in it. I just think that you're picking on cosmetic issues, not the real problem but I mostly agree with you.

[Millifera1]

And romanticism itself, which highlights a hero's victory over insurmountable odds is associated with Medieval times, when the "romantic" poets and such acted as the precursor to the Renaissance era. I don't even see anything wrong with the classic European setting or likeness to that setting. What does need to change, however, and as you pointed out, is personification..how creatures and ideas are portrayed and used. My problem with fantasy isn't the setting (though new setting is always nice).

[Millifera1]

Though I agree with the message of evolving the fantasy genre beyond the Tolkien-esqeness (yes I just made up a word), I dont think that fantasy utensils (for lack of a better term), should be replaced with modern-day weaponry or what-have-you. Think about it, one of the most appealing qualities of fantasy is the romanticism attached to it. Swords and such weaponry require up-close and personal and very dramatic encounters with foes. The act of killing itself is more personal...

[ShadowsoftheEbonMoon]

Indeed, i know so well, what you speak of. I published my first book shortly after leaving high school. However, what stops a lot of authors from implementing new idea's is not only the fear of it not working but also, publishers and editors just not bothering with your work because it is too different from the selling brand of books. To get my book published, i had to go down the route of self publishing, it was worth it, but rather expensive.

[PollyX5]

Nice post. There are major exceptions to the point you make (hail Stephen Donaldson).

You could approach fantasy as an art - which could produce highly original literature (hermetic? impressionistic? abstract? even optic? or genuine surrealistic fantasy?), but it could easily the overstep the boundaries of what you accept. And what the publisher accepts. Online publication might open new roads though...(I look forward to your online publications;)

[childofthemoor]

@PollyX5

There are always exceptions.

I think those are some really interesting ideas, maybe not for a writer like myself, but a good idea nonetheless.

Also, I really do online publication...I am more for traditional publishing, but genre-wise, I don't think it matters if it is print or e-published. It's much harder to reach a wide readership online.

[PollyX5]

@childofthemoor

Hmm. Methinks we're thinkin' along the same line here (ow, now there's an idea: fantasy set in the style of Walter Scott, combined with the former originality of the bible & a barbed story as told by Matthew Lewis. Old Mortality bewitched by Sold Morality... Would be a nice change from the degraded lingo you find in the street and even at the office.)

Now...imagone a small dog, using wit to ask where he'd find your skilled online publication... (woofwoof). (ouais, c'est moi)

[Youngmessage]

My favorite fantasy stories are the final fantasy stories

[suirava]

i completely agree with you, fantasy, for a long time, has been based on the same ideas repeated over and over again since the 1950's, dragons are portrayed as the same, as even in noir fantasy vampires and werewolves have also been done to death, i am hinting towards the twilight series which has systematically repeated the ideas of gothic fiction, it just is not original at all! as even in dracula the vampire was seen as emotional and touchy as Edward is in twilight, so it is just a copy.

[childofthemoor]

@suirava

Pretty much. I have been an adamant TVTropes fan, because it gives all the tropes in these genres, and then gives examples of those series which subvert the ordinary ideas.

[Greenie369]

@childofthemoor Hold on. TV Tropes? Haha! She's One Of Us!

[ZeroMyHero99]

@childofthemoor

You love TVTropes too? You and MelinaPendulum are my new two favorite people.

[childofthemoor]

@ZeroMyHero99 Yee, I love MelinaPendulum too. And TVTropes is like my Bible.

[KeusFrench]

@suirava yes well twilight worked, no? If its what the majority of people enjoy, then write about it. If that means cliched dragons and knights and elves, dwarves etc, then so be it. Whatever the author enjoys comes first, but you also want to sell some books too. Personally I love writing but im stuck on my plot. I have ideas but i need it all to connect and i cant figure stuff out. SUCKS!

[dmspar70]

Nothing wrong with European styled fantasy. I think the problem is how lazy some writers have become. I can't stand books that have a magical item all the time. Stories are about people, that's why we read them. So, I'm having a bit of a problem finding something that is different, where the people matter rather than a magical ring/sword/red squirrel, well you get the idea :o)

[SolidSnake032486]

If you really want to change the fantasy genre then you have to inspire others both creatively and financially by writing something different and somehow making it popular.

[SolidSnake032486]

Most writers are followers , you sound like a leader. If you really want to change the fantasy genre you have to

[Grammeth0123]

I agree. The world Tolkien revealed has been traversed. We need to move on to more creative ideas. Look at Brandon Sanderson and James Cameron.

[childofthemoor]

@Grammeth0123 I don't know how I feel about Cameron, but authors like Ursula K Le Guin, Diana Wynne Jones, etc. have been able to write in the fantasy genre and make stories that are original or contradictory to Tolkein -- sometimes even making fun of it (in case of Jones). :)

[Ashiman12]

I agree with you completely. As brilliant as Tolkien was, much of the fantasy genre ever since has been mired in his shadow, and we essentially see the same basic idea and atmosphere recycled over and over. I mean, there have been good fantasy writers since Tolkien, and Le Guin, in particular, is good at doing new and original things. He Earthsea books are a real inspiration. As an aspiring fantasy author, I agree that more imagination is needed if fantasy is to survive for much longer.

[TheAnimegirl300]

I love fantasy and I get where your going becuse I'v noticed that poeple have done the same thing over agin I'm starting on a fantasy story and have been looking for information on it thanks for the vid. and if you have any more tips i'll be happy top listen :)

[IKillBabyKittensLOL]

One of the best anime movies I watched was Strait jacket.

It was wizards but with magic guns killing terrorist that make demons.

Look it up, its impossible to describe.

[sihugg]

Thank you for posting this it sums up precisely how I feel as an avid fantasy reader it saddens me to read fantasy now because I fined them so similar and as such I have been righting for my self something that is original and will keep me interested and surprised even as the righter witch is hard but fun and your post has put a few new ideas about what to stay clear of most of witch I have anyway but I really have found your post helpful so thank you

[childofthemoor]

No problem, thank you for your insightful post.

[mavarek666]

You want original. I can do that. You got it. Oh what fun it is.

[whowantsabighug]

Terry Pratchett is probably the only origional fantasy writer i know of today...

[WikidLovely]

I've written a book that is to be published in March 2011, part one of a series named LORE. My publisher has high hopes for it - it is a fantasy / mystery / dark romance. Quite original, I'm really enjoying writing it and I've put a lot of work into making it unique. I hope you'll read it and enjoy it when it comes out! I'm a girl from Ireland, am 21, will be making videos soon myself and will respond to this with a video. Subscribed.

[br006DL]

I was thinking of making a fantasy like story with science fiction elements. For example, there will be magic but it will follow at least some of the laws of physics and chemistry. Humans will have a power like "the force" from the star wars movies and be able focus it on a wand to direct the power into a more powerful charge. How to bear this power will have a biological explaination, but where the power comes from is a mystery in physics which leads to the origin of the universe.

[as04qg]

you are sexy AND smart.

[childofthemoor]

Thank you! :D

[as04qg]

lol ;)

I've taken ur advice in this video to heart..will be using it.

[yeahprobablywould]

There should be no rules to fantasy...Chill out and let fantasy writers do what they do best.

[childofthemoor]

Every genre and story has rules. It's not a free-for-all and never has been.

I was simply giving my opinions. I wasn't trying to build up any rules about what fantasy needs or doesn't need, just what I think is best. I happen to have become bored with the medieval fantasy, but some people love it, and hey, that's cool.

[ghriekfilms]

Of course fantasy should have rules. I don't want to read a story about people who can use magic, but have no clue what's possible or not possible. Authors who pull a new spell or loophole out of their butt when it's convenient isn't, or shouldn't, be "writers doing what they do best". : /

[childofthemoor]

Ghriekfilms, you've summed up my thoughts perfectly. :)

[sexfanatic]

subbed

[Orklord90]

o i forgot: my 3ed favorite fantasy genre is: Western (American) High Heroic Fantasy ^_^

[Orklord90]

I have no personal problems with Western Heroic Fantasy.. it is proplably one of my two personal favorite fantasy genres: It is Western (European) High Heroic Fantasy and (Russian) Dark Heroic Fantasy.

My own fantasy world will be more like Mid-European Heroic Fantasy world. Which will be an somewhat crossing between Denmark, France, Germany and Italy.

[Orklord90]

There is a genre or fantasy genres called: Science Fantasy (Might and Magic, Wizardry) and Hard Fantasy (More Realistic Fantasy set in the primary world or in a secondary world which magic are not as so unlimit as most fantasy genres like High and Heroic Fantasy etc)

[childofthemoor]

Hard fantasy sounds interesting, I'd like to see it. :D

[Orklord90]

There is more then the European Fantasy! Have you heard about Raymond E. Feists world of Kelewan?! That´s a crossing between East Asian cutlure and Aztec Architecture!

[childofthemoor]

Oh that's amazing! I'd LOVE to read that!

[bluecube]

I agree that the tolkienesque fantasy has been done to death, the truth is... it is what most people are used to and most comfortable to work with.

It would be nice to venture into other cultures, but it is important to do some research first. The last thing you want to do is offend somebody from that culture you're writing a story about.

Heard of that new movie Ninja Assassin? I saw the trailer, and I don't even want to watch it.

[childofthemoor]

Ahaha, no I've not heard of it (I am completely isolated from the world when I go to college), but...man, that sounds...interesting.

Exactly, it's interesting ground to tread. I guess the medieval fantasy tolkeinesque fantasy just needs to be refreshed is all.

[bluecube]

I think how appealing a story can be depends upon the interpretation and the intended audience.

For example, Chinese legends and mythology would be seen in a different light by westerners. I'll give an example of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. While the majority of westerners were wowed by the film, the Chinese audience were not impressed. It was a film marketed specifically for the western crowd.

[alpharage]

I have been writing fantasy for awhile but I have trouble adding depth to the pieces I have so far and knitting them together so they make sense. I'm trying to stay away from the whole epic genre, instead my stories tend to be about human imperfections. I have one about a young sorceress that gets allot of abuse at home and one day starts fireballing all of her classmates. If you have any tips, weblinks, forums, people that want to read it or whatever I would highly appreciate it. cheers!

[laurariddle292]

If you want, I can give your manuscript a once over and see what you need help in.

[childofthemoor]

If you like! It's science fiction, not fantasy, though.

[laurariddle292]

You mean there's a difference? XD Lol.

Ok, bad joke, bad joke. But, yeah, sure.

[childofthemoor]

Hey now! :3 Haha, just kidding. Alright, well I'll send it your way!

[ProfoundVirgin]

are you doing nanowrimo this november?

[childofthemoor]

For once, I am actually considering it. I've never done more than 25,000 words, but I think I have an idea. It starts on the first of November, right?

[childofthemoor]

I have officially joined.

[MrTraitorX]

Here's an idea, write a fantasy book based from the Bible.

[Lostfaith1980]

Thats already fantasy.

[childofthemoor]

LOL. True.

[laurariddle292]

*coughChroniclesofNarniacough*­

[Malsavaidity]

i'm so alone in my love of fantasy writing, i was happy to find this :) i think the characters of the story can really make or break it. i dont know but i find sometimes that the main protagonists of fantasy stories are the least interesting characters. characters--to me--are the most important.

cant help my love for swords, but for my story it helps when i dont think about basing the world off anything. just curious what kind of story are you working on?

[childofthemoor]

That's really true too, how could I forget the characters? Fantasy, like any genre, has it's cardboard stereotypes. Very interesting and unique characters can make a stale plot line interesting. One of my guilty pleasures is/was the Dragonlance series, but I mostly latched on cause I was in love with Raistlin.

[childofthemoor]

Story I am working on...

I actually am more of a short story writer, so lots of things. And some ones I would like to develop into something that is long-ish.

I am working on a dark modern fantasy - dark fantasy as in evil fairies and black magic, kidnapped children, etc.

I am also working on lots of science fiction projects. One is about the development of AI in the third world...the other is about an alien civilization imposing their culture on Earth.

[childofthemoor]

I never thought about that, but you're right. Of course, some people will write it off "as fantasy" but basic ecology HAS to exist to be believable.

It reminds me of the Majora's Mask Zelda game, where just a few paces from one another, you had an ocean, a swamp, a forest, and an icy mountain.

[laurariddle292]

Ugh, I hate the "it's fantasy!" excuse. Makes me want to throttle something.

I do have one ecology oddball, tho', but the reason it's there is because of a magic barrier that keeps the icy cold on one side and temperate climate on the other.

[childofthemoor]

Me too. It's basically an excuse that lazy writers use (and their readers).

Hey, makes sense to me!

[childofthemoor]

I think you're safe then. :) I like the ideas you have.

Then again, it's not always that the medieval European thing is bad or anything, it just CAN be overused. But some of my favorite fantasy are Eurofantasy, so guilty as well. It CAN be a trap for writers to fall into, however.

[laurariddle292]

Hyoo! This gets me inspired! I still have so much work to do though....DX Stupid world!

Anywho, you are totally right about this. I barely look at fantasy much anymore because I see the cover and think "Chosen one, wild quest, defeat Ganon". That's why I'm a little worried about my first book, because though there are lots of adventures in it (ADVENTURE!) they aren't quest oriented at all. Meh, maybe people won't mind.

But awesome vid, and a good thing to talk about!

[childofthemoor]

Yay, I'm happy to hear that you got inspired! ^_^

How far are you in your story? Is it a fantasy?

Thanks! ^_^

D: I'm guilty of doing high fantasy in a slightly stereotypical way, mostly with my older works, but I've been trying to steer away from it.

[laurariddle292]

Still doing research...*dom* I have a good chunk of the plot planned out, but that means nothing if I don't complete my world, which will take a good chunk of time. I do have the first page written, and I think it will catch the eye well enough. I'm doing high fantasy too, but it's mostly Asian/African/Mexican. There aren't many Euros, and they're based mostly off of French/Norse tales. My fav. is Elysia, who will become a valkyrie!

Meh, practice makes perfect, as I always say! Good luck!

[childofthemoor]

I think it sounds really interesting. I'd like to read it when you are done with it!

[petanjah]

tolkein was heavily influenced by norse mythology to create an ancient history for Britain. his history was created through decades of hard work. its so in depth and people have no willingness to put in the same effort so they leach off of him. same with vampires. bram stoker made a decent set of rules and people cant be bothered to rewrite, other than to make vampires sparkly ofc. fantasy is a hard genre to get publishers to look at, so it wont feed into more common genres.

[MelinaPendulum]

I agree, people have not been taking risks with their work and go research different cultures and make leaps with originality

[childofthemoor]

I forgot to mention Avatar: The Last Airbender. That was a good example of what I was trying to portray.

[OHMYGOSHitsSARA]

I agree. It's like reading/watching/playing the same story/show/game over and over.

[childofthemoor]

I know, right? :(