Interesting document, I do hunt and use cooper based ammunition. No problem taking big game down such a moose. I heard about Indians in the northern Canada with very high level of lead in blood because of the ammunition.
165gr accubond and everything else is 180gr? Why not compare with 180gr accubond as well? I shoot accubond out of most of my rifles and have been impressed with performance even out to 600 Yards
over penatration of copper bullets poses more danger to other hunters and wildlife in the feild than their lead counterparts... ( In my experiance) and less effective wound channel causes deer to run farther after shot in some cases.
lead which is in a large enough clump to see is not really able to affect you like a dose of atomised lead, like in singular tiny microscopic particles. the suface area to total mass of lead is the reatio which dictates how toxic a sample weight of lead would be. im not a scientist, but this is my understanding.
@DMarksmanLima21 Hunting anything with lead shot or bullets runs the risk of affecting other non-target animals. Personally, I don't like the idea of my hunting impacting something other than what I am trying to shoot.
As for lead pipes, I believe (and you may want to look into this for yourself), that basically as water runs through it corrodes the piping or solder holding the pipes together. If that piping has lead in it, than it can be leached into the water and in turn you can ingest it.
@DMarksmanLima21 As for using lead bullets for small game, although the issue has not been as well studied, there is growing evidence that lead can be an issue. In the west, prairie dog hunting has been seen to contribute to lead poisoning in eagles and other raptors who feed on an animals left behind after being shot. Mourning Doves are well documented to ingest lead shot, and suffer from lead poisoning. There is growing evidence that other bird species are also suffering ingesting lead.
@DMarksmanLima21 Gun ranges have the potential to contribute to lead contamination. However, a lot of ranges have intensive measures in place to help reduce that potential impact. However, the U.S. military is trying to move away from lead bullets, to the use of nonlead bullets (at least for training), because of issues with lead contaminated ranges. In the end, it saves a lot of money and aggravation simply by avoiding the intensive, and I imagine tedious, clean up efforts.
Gentlemen, To DmarksmanLima21 and Hunter Biologist, thanks for your input. Your comments are spot on. The cost of solid copper bullets is high because we invest a lot of money in R&D testing, evaluating and marketing. But lo! there is a company called Advanced Ballistic Systems in AZ. Look at their quality! Each bullet is carved on a CNC lathe with precision to the 4th decimal point at a price you can afford.
If lead comes from the ground then whats it hurt to shoot it back there. This is just another ployby the environmentalists and anti gunners to drive up bullet prices so we cannot afford to shoot the guns we own. A box of federal bullets in 30-06, federal lead bullets cost 16.00 a box at walmart. 30-06 bullets from federal with the barnes x bullets @walmart cost 54.00 a box for the same amount 20 bullets. so shoot lead its cheaper and has been used sucessfully in guns since guns became guns.
@DMarksmanLima21: As a wildlife biologist I'm asking you sincerely to keep hunting. As a hunter and as a biologist I know that it is one of the best ways we have to manage our wildlife populations. However, we know lead is poisonous when ingested, that fact can't be disputed. If enough of us, as hunters, pull together we can prevent the use of lead as a backdoor means to attack hunting while maintaining our ability to lead conservation efforts. We should be leading, not being led.
The use of lead bullets has not been directly linked to health problems in humans. However, lead poisoning is one of the most studied human health issues. In children even extremely low blood levels (2 micrograms/dL) can have significant, lasting effects. In adults, about 10-15% of ingested lead is absorbed into the body. It would take a lot of lead over a short period of time to get acute lead poisoning, but chronic, long-term effects can include a myriad of problems.
According to Wikipedia, lead is far rarer than copper. So while accepting that copper bullets are more environmentally friendly and better or similar efficacy, the real question for me is "Why does copper, which is three times as abundant as lead, cost four times as much?"
Nothing to worry about. An adult could swallow an entire lead bullet and suffer no ill effects from it, except perhaps discomfort when passing it. The lead simply doesn't break down easily enough in the stomach to enter the bloodstream in dangerous quantities.
as long as the bullet can expand it will take down the F'in game! jeesh the diferences are just too damn little a deer is not gon give a damn what he gets shot with. I like copper because of no fragmentation lead gets everywere sometimes. Those 2 are the only damn dif the rest is just ballony shit who the fuck cares wich is better just choose weather or not you wanna use lead or copper! and if lead ammo was banned fuck just adjust to it! who the fuck cares its all the same thing!
It is great to have a choice, and you are welcome to buy whatever ammo makes you happy. However, now that the EPA is being asked to ban ammo containing lead, forcing people to use relatively scarce and expensive ammo, even when they aren't planning on eating their sporting clays, papers, and other targets, it is important to keep the arguement balanced. Lead ammo arguements are rapidly becoming more politicized as a tool to limit ammo supplies and control firearms.
Shouldn't it be possible to make a copper round that mushrooms or something to prevent overpenetration with minimal fragmentation? Not that copper poinsoning would be much better. But, on that note, let's keep in mind that the increase in lead in hunters found in the CDC's North Dakota study showed hunters did have 0.3mg/dL more lead in them, which is 3% of the CDC lead benchmark for kids, or 1.2% of that for adults.
So the copper greatly overpenetrates and doesn't impart its energy entirely during the first 20" or less like the lead bullets do. If you are shooting a deer in the backside, I guess you might want a copper bullet. Otherwise, the greater penetration imparts less of the bullet's energy to the game because it passes through?
(continued) And, it looks that cutting out the blood shot meat would remove most of the lead. Most deer are shot through the rib cage taking out the heart/ lungs, which are parts not eaten by most. Are hunters who eat their kill showing higher levels of lead than non-hunting rural populations?
Interesting info, but humans don't have crops (gizzards) like condors to grind up particles of lead. Metallic lead has been shown to pass through the human gut virtually untouched. Our body doesn't have acids and enzymes that can break/convert it into compounds that are easily adsorbed by the human body during such short pass through time. (CONTINUED)
If I was going to shoot and eat something, the last thing I would shoot it with is toxic lead. Copper is a great idea and while it may not be as heavy as lead, but it is non toxic and with improved bullet deign fragmentation shouldn't be an issue.
@osip7315 ---Copper an essential nutrient? Yes, in infinitesimal quantities. If you house has copper pipes and water with a pH lower than 7, you are likely suffering copper poisoning.
@bafrank3poc well i take about .8 of a mg of copper a day for my shoulder which has worked wonders on it, but then i don't drink water from copper piping
infintesimal is not a good word, its all about amounts, like how much lead is absorbed?
@markrickard Im not sure exactly what part of that you misunderstood, but im gonn a take a wild swing at "everything". In essence what I was saying is that lead poisoning could be an issue if you're eating lots of lead fragments with the game you've killed, whilst copper bullets tend to fragment less and are niowhere near as harmful.
@BHT195 I didn't misunderstand. I've known hunters all my life and their lead levels are no higher than the general population. This is a manufactured crisis in order to restrict Americans' Second Amendment rights. Cass Sunstein is a tool.
@markrickard Hold on, you've measured the lead content of your friends?
Over time lead can seep from the rounds into the environment. Copper kills just fine. I'm not saying abandon your rights, I'm simply saying a little less lead in the ecosystem is a good thing. By all means keep hunting. It's a shame I can't do it over here.
Interesting document, I do hunt and use cooper based ammunition. No problem taking big game down such a moose. I heard about Indians in the northern Canada with very high level of lead in blood because of the ammunition.
BOROZ28 1 month ago
165gr accubond and everything else is 180gr? Why not compare with 180gr accubond as well? I shoot accubond out of most of my rifles and have been impressed with performance even out to 600 Yards
OneBADsnipeR 2 months ago
Wow it looks like some posters are showing signs of lead poisoning, hostility, confusion, inability to concentrate...
What more proof do you need?
Bullet fragments.
Lead is toxic.
Get a clue.
Also over penetration is not a safety issue, unless one is shooting in an unsafe manner ie...in aware of the backdrop.
MacHamish 3 months ago
over penatration of copper bullets poses more danger to other hunters and wildlife in the feild than their lead counterparts... ( In my experiance) and less effective wound channel causes deer to run farther after shot in some cases.
Rooster859 3 months ago
lead which is in a large enough clump to see is not really able to affect you like a dose of atomised lead, like in singular tiny microscopic particles. the suface area to total mass of lead is the reatio which dictates how toxic a sample weight of lead would be. im not a scientist, but this is my understanding.
tubestick00 5 months ago
people walk around with lead bullets in their body for half their lives. harden the fuck up.
tubestick00 7 months ago
@tubestick00
Really? Lead poisoning does not affect people?
Zaleblackwell 5 months ago
@tubestick00 Are you suggesting that a lead bullet with tissue around is the same as ingesting lead?
I thought that high-school chemistry covered the topic of toxicity.
bf2lover42 2 months ago
@bf2lover42 if you read my comment there im suggesting it is not the same. at all.
tubestick00 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@tubestick00 "people walk around with lead bullets in their body for half their lives. harden the fuck up."
Video is about ingesting lead.
Your post about the atomized lead is correct, though.
bf2lover42 2 months ago
@bf2lover42 i get what your saying though. i guess ingesting a bullet is different to having one lodged in your body somewhere.
tubestick00 2 months ago
@tubestick00 hhahahahahahahah.
TestMiNuh 1 month ago
this guy makes this video boring.,.. NEXTTTTT lol....
eddiefromnyc 9 months ago in playlist Shooting
wildlife biologist, and a hunter....man u got to choose which side your on!
paolotan92 11 months ago
@DMarksmanLima21 Hunting anything with lead shot or bullets runs the risk of affecting other non-target animals. Personally, I don't like the idea of my hunting impacting something other than what I am trying to shoot.
As for lead pipes, I believe (and you may want to look into this for yourself), that basically as water runs through it corrodes the piping or solder holding the pipes together. If that piping has lead in it, than it can be leached into the water and in turn you can ingest it.
HunterBiologist 1 year ago
@DMarksmanLima21 As for using lead bullets for small game, although the issue has not been as well studied, there is growing evidence that lead can be an issue. In the west, prairie dog hunting has been seen to contribute to lead poisoning in eagles and other raptors who feed on an animals left behind after being shot. Mourning Doves are well documented to ingest lead shot, and suffer from lead poisoning. There is growing evidence that other bird species are also suffering ingesting lead.
HunterBiologist 1 year ago
@DMarksmanLima21 Gun ranges have the potential to contribute to lead contamination. However, a lot of ranges have intensive measures in place to help reduce that potential impact. However, the U.S. military is trying to move away from lead bullets, to the use of nonlead bullets (at least for training), because of issues with lead contaminated ranges. In the end, it saves a lot of money and aggravation simply by avoiding the intensive, and I imagine tedious, clean up efforts.
HunterBiologist 1 year ago
@DMarksmanLima21 Try another company's bullets: Advanced Ballistic Systems in AZ.
Each bullet is carved from solid copper rod on a CNC machine to .000X tolerances.
That's better than most high-quality target bullets!
The price is identical to conventional lead bullets.
lenmattsen 1 year ago
Gentlemen, To DmarksmanLima21 and Hunter Biologist, thanks for your input. Your comments are spot on. The cost of solid copper bullets is high because we invest a lot of money in R&D testing, evaluating and marketing. But lo! there is a company called Advanced Ballistic Systems in AZ. Look at their quality! Each bullet is carved on a CNC lathe with precision to the 4th decimal point at a price you can afford.
lenmattsen 1 year ago
If lead comes from the ground then whats it hurt to shoot it back there. This is just another ployby the environmentalists and anti gunners to drive up bullet prices so we cannot afford to shoot the guns we own. A box of federal bullets in 30-06, federal lead bullets cost 16.00 a box at walmart. 30-06 bullets from federal with the barnes x bullets @walmart cost 54.00 a box for the same amount 20 bullets. so shoot lead its cheaper and has been used sucessfully in guns since guns became guns.
manostihl 1 year ago
@DMarksmanLima21: As a wildlife biologist I'm asking you sincerely to keep hunting. As a hunter and as a biologist I know that it is one of the best ways we have to manage our wildlife populations. However, we know lead is poisonous when ingested, that fact can't be disputed. If enough of us, as hunters, pull together we can prevent the use of lead as a backdoor means to attack hunting while maintaining our ability to lead conservation efforts. We should be leading, not being led.
HunterBiologist 1 year ago
The use of lead bullets has not been directly linked to health problems in humans. However, lead poisoning is one of the most studied human health issues. In children even extremely low blood levels (2 micrograms/dL) can have significant, lasting effects. In adults, about 10-15% of ingested lead is absorbed into the body. It would take a lot of lead over a short period of time to get acute lead poisoning, but chronic, long-term effects can include a myriad of problems.
HunterBiologist 1 year ago
Comment removed
HunterBiologist 1 year ago
According to Wikipedia, lead is far rarer than copper. So while accepting that copper bullets are more environmentally friendly and better or similar efficacy, the real question for me is "Why does copper, which is three times as abundant as lead, cost four times as much?"
LAZerBeam2010 1 year ago
Nothing to worry about. An adult could swallow an entire lead bullet and suffer no ill effects from it, except perhaps discomfort when passing it. The lead simply doesn't break down easily enough in the stomach to enter the bloodstream in dangerous quantities.
geniusiknowit 1 year ago
as long as the bullet can expand it will take down the F'in game! jeesh the diferences are just too damn little a deer is not gon give a damn what he gets shot with. I like copper because of no fragmentation lead gets everywere sometimes. Those 2 are the only damn dif the rest is just ballony shit who the fuck cares wich is better just choose weather or not you wanna use lead or copper! and if lead ammo was banned fuck just adjust to it! who the fuck cares its all the same thing!
golfer15963 1 year ago
It is great to have a choice, and you are welcome to buy whatever ammo makes you happy. However, now that the EPA is being asked to ban ammo containing lead, forcing people to use relatively scarce and expensive ammo, even when they aren't planning on eating their sporting clays, papers, and other targets, it is important to keep the arguement balanced. Lead ammo arguements are rapidly becoming more politicized as a tool to limit ammo supplies and control firearms.
haygoodb 1 year ago
Shouldn't it be possible to make a copper round that mushrooms or something to prevent overpenetration with minimal fragmentation? Not that copper poinsoning would be much better. But, on that note, let's keep in mind that the increase in lead in hunters found in the CDC's North Dakota study showed hunters did have 0.3mg/dL more lead in them, which is 3% of the CDC lead benchmark for kids, or 1.2% of that for adults.
haygoodb 1 year ago
Comment removed
haygoodb 1 year ago
So the copper greatly overpenetrates and doesn't impart its energy entirely during the first 20" or less like the lead bullets do. If you are shooting a deer in the backside, I guess you might want a copper bullet. Otherwise, the greater penetration imparts less of the bullet's energy to the game because it passes through?
haygoodb 1 year ago
1. Lead trace "studies" are crocks of shit.
2. Copper bullets are not a new idea. They are the original cop killer bullets. Thanks for bringing those back, jackasses.
praecorloth 1 year ago
gold bullets are the best option
jaksun93 1 year ago
(continued) And, it looks that cutting out the blood shot meat would remove most of the lead. Most deer are shot through the rib cage taking out the heart/ lungs, which are parts not eaten by most. Are hunters who eat their kill showing higher levels of lead than non-hunting rural populations?
bafrank3poc 1 year ago
Interesting info, but humans don't have crops (gizzards) like condors to grind up particles of lead. Metallic lead has been shown to pass through the human gut virtually untouched. Our body doesn't have acids and enzymes that can break/convert it into compounds that are easily adsorbed by the human body during such short pass through time. (CONTINUED)
bafrank3poc 1 year ago
Barnes X are the shit.... hands down, all the rest are junk...... no reason to use anything else. Ive tried them all..... hunting in AK
mrsmelzbad 2 years ago
Barnes Bullets has some amazing clips on their facebook site to watch. Google search- "Barnes Bullets Facebook." it has some way cool stuff.
g4gbrooks 2 years ago
If I was going to shoot and eat something, the last thing I would shoot it with is toxic lead. Copper is a great idea and while it may not be as heavy as lead, but it is non toxic and with improved bullet deign fragmentation shouldn't be an issue.
BHT195 3 years ago
copper is a heavymetal...although it is much harder so most likely will not cause poisoning.
rthrgh 2 years ago
lead is a heavy metal and poison and new research shows there is no safe level.
copper is an essential nutrient
i use copper bullets and lead free primers
osip7315 2 years ago
@osip7315 ---Copper an essential nutrient? Yes, in infinitesimal quantities. If you house has copper pipes and water with a pH lower than 7, you are likely suffering copper poisoning.
bafrank3poc 1 year ago
@bafrank3poc well i take about .8 of a mg of copper a day for my shoulder which has worked wonders on it, but then i don't drink water from copper piping
infintesimal is not a good word, its all about amounts, like how much lead is absorbed?
osip7315 1 year ago
@BHT195 Non-toxic? If you're putting a bullet in your mouth you should only be doing it once, and toxicity is the least of your problems. Stupid.
markrickard 1 year ago
@markrickard Im not sure exactly what part of that you misunderstood, but im gonn a take a wild swing at "everything". In essence what I was saying is that lead poisoning could be an issue if you're eating lots of lead fragments with the game you've killed, whilst copper bullets tend to fragment less and are niowhere near as harmful.
BHT195 1 year ago
@BHT195 I didn't misunderstand. I've known hunters all my life and their lead levels are no higher than the general population. This is a manufactured crisis in order to restrict Americans' Second Amendment rights. Cass Sunstein is a tool.
markrickard 1 year ago
@markrickard Hold on, you've measured the lead content of your friends?
Over time lead can seep from the rounds into the environment. Copper kills just fine. I'm not saying abandon your rights, I'm simply saying a little less lead in the ecosystem is a good thing. By all means keep hunting. It's a shame I can't do it over here.
BHT195 1 year ago
Do you even know how much lead you would have to eat, to die of residual lead poisonning??
Loads!!!...lol
headphones222 1 year ago