@candiceevans1 What are you talking about??? JS never made a false prophecy. Nor any LDS prophet acting in the name of the Lord. Now for BY, what he said, was never canonized, so it can't be considered prophecy for us. Also we are not so sure what he meant, what if watson's interpretation of BY is correct?? If you study his interpretation, it fits perfectly, with the exception of like 2% I think, but they may not be complete quotes of BY. if he was just wrong, it was the human, not the prophet.
iN A SENSE, this is my prophet, for doctrine " With divine inspiration, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Also Peter or Paul must have made a lot of statements outside the New testament canon.
Okay people I found the truth, you dont have to believe in the human Brigham Young, he made mistakes but please lisen to the Prophet Brigham Young, he was a true prophet, his statements can be found in official LDS doctrine.
HE WOULD HAVE HAD Alzheimer's, "That is not any better, my friend" Thats not true, the Adam Theory could fit the mentality of a good chrisitian, and THAT is why the church had to declared that its false, as poplulary understood. But that God is satan that is something unacceptable, and a person would be playing games if he were to say that. No sincere Christian, LDS or protestant would accept that.
Acting Prophet = With divine inspiration, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith
Okay people, the human brigham young has supposibly been found, that he made a false statement, so you don't have to believe in him. But please lisen to the Prophet Brigham Young, he never has been found saying anything false.
@niksilvourbolt The official position of the Church for the Adam-God theory, is that it is false doctrine. But, Brigham Young was a true prophet of GOD.
"The official position of the Church for the Adam-God theory, is that it is false doctrine. "
And by some absurdity, the church refuses to shun the false prophet. That is great foolishness. It's like condemning the act of murder yet letting the murderer run free and with high esteem.
It's nonsense, and the Bible clearly warns false prophets to be shunned. But Mormons can't do so, because they have believed a lie concerning the "President's authority."
@niksilvourbolt So that is how a prophet acts in God's name, like I just showed you in the comment below. If its not in there, then its not scripture, would you be interrested in Peters or Paul's personal opinions or epistles if its not found in the NT?? Also, Moses attributed a miracle to himself and he was not perfect (Numbers 20). Look at Jonah in Jonah 4:1. By the way, if you don't think scribal errors happen, can you please explain to me Deut. 34:5?
@niksilvourbolt :Absolutely. If they speak falsely of God in private, then they would be false prophets" How do you know that Peter didn't say anything wrong??? we don't have his writting or his sermonts recorded. All we have is the official canon, the NT. Something false won't make it to the canon, nor church official doctrine. Jesus' apostles were not always perfectly humble or modest. They once disputed over which of them would be the greatest in heaven. (Mark 9:34)
"How do you know that Peter didn't say anything wrong??"
What you ask of me is a sin: The scriptures command that I NOT GO AROUND ASSUMING anything, but rather to test against the word. Peter passes. Young has failed completely and miserably.
I'm not going to indulge your fantasy about Peter, that would be sin. When you have evidence, present it, but just as you would not want me speculating about whether your wife is cheating on you, nor will I speculate of Peter.
"Also, Moses attributed a miracle to himself and he was not perfect "
I'm not talking about merely sinning. The Bible is clear that all men sin. Moses disobeyed God. That makes him a sinner, not a false prophet. The Bible clearly differentiates between the two.
Brigham Young is one of those whom the Lord spoke of when he said "If anyone comes to you and does not bring the right teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,"
@niksilvourbolt That's what I am saying, how do you know that Moses didn't teach anything wrong??? All we have is the canon, and false doctrines won't get in the canon. Today in the church, false doctrines won't get in the canon. So if you show me something false in the canon, I will start to doubt.
"So if you show me something false in the canon, I will start to doubt. "
There's plenty of falsehood in Mormonism. The "translation" of Egyptian Papyri is a blatant falsehood, the idea that Lehites and Nepites spanned America has been proven false, "reformed Egyptian" is an absurdity among Egyptologists and linguists, many of Smith's prophecies are false.
But you likely knew these things, and spoke wrong when you said you would change if you had proof.
@niksilvourbolt Lisen either 1) The prophet of GOD was wrong 2) Watsons interpretation 3) he didn't live long enough to clarify what he meant, to reconcile with LDS scripture, its one of those 3. But if he was wrong, its not big deal, the adam theory he taught is not big deal, becuase he was acting like a human, he just had electro-chemical process that occurs in the brain, he didn't mean to lie, but he sincerly loved God. And God loved him.
"if he was wrong, its not big deal, the adam theory he taught is not big deal, becuase he was acting like a human, he just had electro-chemical process that occurs in the brain, he didn't mean to lie, but he sincerly loved God."
That's disgusting. What you are doing, I mean. You are justifying things you know to be false about our Lord. You have doe this using illogical, poorly reasoned argumentation that cannot stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
@niksilvourbolt The prophet Brigham young was a human also, like Moses, Peter, Paul, he was not perfect. So he made a human mistake OR (read above first) "....However, Watson's theory has not been widely accepted for several reasons: (a) it is not widely known, (b) it assumes that those in Brigham Young's audience understood that he was talking about two Adams, and (c) Brigham never directly explained his Adam-God teachings in the way Watson interprets them." But anyways, he was a prophet of GOD
@niksilvourbolt The prophet Brigham young was a human also, like Moses, Peter, Paul, he was not perfect. So he made a human mistake OR (read above first) "....However, Watson's theory has not been widely accepted for several reasons: (a) it is not widely known, (b) it assumes that those in Brigham Young's audience understood that he was talking about two Adams, and (c) Brigham never directly explained his Adam-God teachings in the way Watson interprets them." But anyways, he was a prophet of GOD
I'm not disputing his humanity. I am disputing his "status" as Prophet, as the Bible instructs: "Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
Brigham Young used God's name to spread hatred about black people, to condone MURDER for interracial marriage, and claimed that Adam was God. It's wretched blasphemy. This was NOT a man of God.
That's a falsehood. God disowns the prophets who speak falsely in His Name:
"Romans 16- I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive"
now let us test Young under the criteria: Did Young cause divisions and create obstacles by using contradictory Gospel? Oh, yes. He threatened interracial marriages with murder and lied about the nature of God by saying God was Adam.
And let us not pretend Young said any different. By Young's own word:
@niksilvourbolt 1) The prophet of GOD was wrong 2) Watsons interpretation 3) he didn't live long enough to clarify what he meant, to reconcile with LDS scripture.But the Adam-God theory as popularly understood, is not the doctrine of the Church. First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. It resides in 4 books canon, official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.
"But the Adam-God theory as popularly understood, is not the doctrine of the Church."
IT WAS THE DOCTRINE OF YOUR PRESIDENT!
You are playing a game; equivocating. It's insulting to intelligence. "Oh, he isn't a liar unless he announces his statement is official!" That's absurd. If I say "your mother was a prostitute, you are a liar and a horsethief" and someone issues the thin apology "don't worry, that wasn't his official doctrine" what comfort have you been given?
By your logic, Yong was free to go around claiming Satan is our true lord and master so long as he never said "this is the offical doctrine of the church" as if that magically erases the enormous sin and downgrades the magnitude of the offense. That logic is so absurd as to be comical.
@niksilvourbolt Lisen, IF Brigham Young did really mean "Adam-God theory as popularly understood" that Adam was the Father, then it was a mistake, he didn't meant it. He must have been hallucinating, he sincerly believe it, and its no big deal. But God is so woderfull, that he did not allow that doctrine to be official church doctrine. Like it says on D&C, GOD won't allow true prophets to mislead the people. we as humans mistake weird voices with the voices of the spirit.
@TheSkepticChristian "Lisen, IF Brigham Young did really mean "Adam-God theory as popularly understood" that Adam was the Father, then it was a mistake,"
That's an understatement. It was a LIE ABOUT WHO GOD IS. That makes Young a false prophet.
" He must have been hallucinating, he sincerly believe it, and its no big deal."
Your position is ridiculous, my friend. You could literally write off anything he saysunder your logic.
By refusing to discard Young, Mormons have become like the Church of Thratira:
"20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: YOU TOLERATE that woman Jezebel, WHO CALLS HERSELF A PROPHET. BY HER TEACHING SHE MISLEADS MY SERVANTS.... 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I WILL MAKE THOSE WHO COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER SUFFER INTENSELY, unless they repent of her ways. "
@TheSkepticChristian "He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. "
@niksilvourbolt "According to Watson, the reason modern readers miss this is our failure to take into account all of Brigham's sermons in context. Watson has the advantage of being more familiar with Brigham Young's sermons than perhaps any other living researcher, and he does clearly grasp that Brigham did not equate Elohim/Jehovah/Michael with God the Father/Jesus Christ/Adam as modern Latter-day Saints do. However, Watson's theory has not been widely accepted for several reasons: ....."
@niksilvourbolt "LDS researcher Elden Watson, editor of the multi-volume Brigham Young Addresses, believes that Brigham used the term "Adam" as a name-title for both God the Father ("Adam Sr.") and the man Adam ("Adam Jr."), comparable to the way "Elias" is used as a title meaning "forerunner" and applied to various people."
""LDS researcher Elden Watson, editor of the multi-volume Brigham Young Addresses, believes that Brigham used the term "Adam" as a name-title for both God the Father ("Adam Sr.") and the man Adam"
LDS researcher Watson is a sorry apologist... at best. At worst, an outright liar:
"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our FATHER and our GOD,"
Was God married to Eve? Watson's argument is pathetic beyond belief. Young is QUITE PLAINLY equating God with Adam.
@niksilvourbolt I said, either the true prophet of GOD was wrong, OR its like Watson interprets it. Pathetic? just ask him and he will give you a response. If Watson's interpretation is correct, on what you just said below, here are some speculation possibilities to what Brigham young might have meant, 1) Adam is God in the sense of Ex 4:16; 7:1. 2) Michael, Archangel had a different meaning to Brigham young, ancient of Days applied to God. For Eve Heavenly Mother Eve, not daugther Eve.
"I said, either the true prophet of GOD was wrong, "
Not just "wrong". But falsely using God's name to promote untrue doctrines that spread a message that leads to death.
"f Watson's interpretation is correct, on what you just said below, here are some speculation possibilities to what Brigham young might have meant, 1) Adam is God in the sense of Ex 4:16; 7:1. 2"
You aren't being fair to the context of Young's statement. Young said God was married to Eve.
@niksilvourbolt Like I said, read all my previous comments first. Maybe Heavenly mother eve, not daughther eve. Lisen if its not in the 4 holy canon books, and if it is not in official declarations and proclamations, he was acting like a human. Doctrine is establish on those 4 canonical books, official declarations and proclamations, and articles of Faith, and if its not there, I am not interrested. So since Peter denied Christ, does that make him a false apostle??
"2) Michael, Archangel had a different meaning to Brigham young, "
That much is obvious. The question isn't whether Young had a different meaning (again, that is obvious) but whether his expression of that meaning made him a false prophet... AND IT DID!
God isn't wishy-washy on this point. CONTRADICTORY DOCTRINE = FALSE PROPHET = CURSE. God spits these false prophets out of His mouth, and warns people not to listen to them. SO WHY ARE MORMONS STILL HONORING YOUNG?
@niksilvourbolt If you show me the were the Adam-theory is on the 4 canonical books, or official declarations and proclamations, and articles of Faith, then I will start to Doubt. Show me were, show me on the Word of God, not on the words of men. Brigham young is not my God, is was just a servent of GOD. You could find in D&C Brigham young's words.
@niksilvourbolt I just gave 2 possibilities, maybe I am wrong but you would have to ask Watson, how he interprets what you just said. Anyways, another possibility, maybe that statment is not quoted accurately.
@niksilvourbolt IF one day, archaeologists discover documents with Peter's opinions, would you be interested if it was not in the New testament??????? what if he said that the earth was flat? By the way, Peter denied Christ, after having confessed who Christ was, after being called to the ministry, and given the keys of the kingdom, thats in NT. But anyways, Brigham young was a Prophet of GOD. Please read all my comments before responding, so I don't have to respond to you the samething again.
"IF one day, archaeologists discover documents with Peter's opinions, would you be interested if it was not in the New testament? what if he said that the earth was flat?"
Then he is a false teacher. Asking me to speculate ill of Peter is a distraction from Young's sin.
"By the way, Peter denied Christ"
Yes, he was a sinner. But a sinner is not necessarily a false prophet. A liar is not necessarily a false prophet. But a false prophet is a liar and a sinner.
@niksilvourbolt One can interpret that when Peter denied Christ, by dening him, its also teaching that Jesus was not Christ, becuase he lied. Its the same thing. and he did it intentionally. But God forgave him, and he was an apostle. like Brigham young was a man of GOD, (hey read the previous comment) anyways, I have to go to church again. but I will be back and respond to your comments. I can guarantee you that Brigham Young did not mean to Lie!
"One can interpret that when Peter denied Christ, by dening him, its also teaching that Jesus was not Christ,"
I agree that is a fair interpretation. But I don't believe it. Peter is denying KNOWING Christ. That much is certain. He is certainly lying about his involvement with Christ, but peter never officially denies what he knows is Christ's nature. Perhaps Peter is doubting it himself. This doesn't make Peter a false prophet; it makes him a coward and a liar.
@niksilvourbolt Peter was NOT a false prophet, thats why his teachingss are in the NT. However, how do you know that he didn't teach something false, outside the NT? Like earth being flat? Something false won't make it to the canon? And by the way, Brigham Young was acting like a prophet when he gave the Section 136 of D&C, (acting like a prophet to reveal new doctrine). I don't care what the human side of the prophets say, its not scripture.
@niksilvourbolt "what if Christ claimed he was no the Son of God outside of scripture" well Christ was and is perfect. However, the difference between a false prophet is that a false prophet deceives people, becuase now the official position of the church is that adam theory is false. Nor did Brigham young knowingly teach something false, he believed what he taught, he was not trying to deceive. Also, ...
If you will recall the scriptures, God said that he sent delusion to false prophets. They THOUGHT they were giving the word of God, yet they were false. One believed it so much that he struck Jeremiah and accused Jeremiah of being a false prophet himself.
@niksilvourbolt Sure ... but I think its more refering to false prophets that deceive, brigham yound did not deceive the church. Why would God sent a delusion to a person who tries to be sincere and dont harm people??? Also, Who can prove what the Bible says??? are pentecostals having a delusion? are baptist?? are jehovah's witness?? are catholics?? I mean who to believe???? I have a good respond to you to the comment you just made, give me a second.
@niksilvourbolt God didn't allow his human errror (if it was an error)to deceive the church, becuase the official position of the church is that the adam theory is false, hey but you are being so unfair. You attack noncanon statements about Brigham young, and you campare it with canon statements of Peter. Show me where in LDS canon do you see a false statement? What about official statements and proclamantions, show me? in a sense thats my prophet (for doctrine).
"God didn't allow his human errror (if it was an error)to deceive the church"
Did you not know that BECAUSE BRIGHAM LIED ABOUT GOD that there are churches who believe even to this day that Adam is God? Look it up! These souls are damned because of Young's evil.
The FLDS still believe it to this day. I know several LDS who believe it!
@niksilvourbolt But adam theory is not even a prophecy, its something that he believed. So if someone believes something false, for example, that man did not go to the moon. Is that person going to hell. We all have mistakes and not everything we believe might be correct. The Adam theory(if its is really like its popularly understood), its not a Big deal, he didn't say Jesus is not the messiah, he didn't even mean to deceive people. If he was wrong, GOd will forgive him, like he forgave Peter.
"But adam theory is not even a prophecy, its something that he believed. "
It IS NOT something he simply believed. He stood on his pulpit and told his sheep that this was truth. he spent weekends spewing false doctrine out of his mouth, and yes he DID claim that the doctrine of Adam as God came through revelation.
"We all have mistakes "
And we aren't all saved, wither. We aren't all prophets, either.
@niksilvourbolt I mean just becuase of a stupid human interpretation, now you are going to deny the Church of GOD??? you don't even understand what is the church about, its purpose, its goals. We dont have to believe a prophet when he is acting like a human, but when he is acting like a prophet, then we should.
"I mean just becuase of a stupid human interpretation, now you are going to deny the Church of GOD?"
I deny the LDS church for a slew of reasons. This is the one i am most furious with at the moment. Young lied about who God was, spread false doctrine, propved himself a false prophet, and the Mormon Church has the audacity to call him a man of God and a true prophet of the Lord.
They do this because the LDS CHURCH IS FALSE ITSELF!
"Read, what I just said below, but the Adam theory is not a prophesy, "
You are splitting hairs... and wrongly at that, because a PROPHET IS NOT SIMPLY ONE WHO TELLS ABOUT THE FUTURE. A prophet is a human messenger of God.
Don't change the definition of prophet. It's intellectually dishonest, to yourself and to me.
@niksilvourbolt "A prophet is a human messenger " So does a true prophet always have to say everything perfect?? Do all his messages have to be perfect??? Are we humans false prophets?? Yes I know what it means, but I think the context of the old testament on that scripture is talking about prophecing, but i might be wrong I am a human.
@niksilvourbolt I just responded to you again, read below, berry important. and I am not atalking about prophets, I am talking about prohecies. But yes you could be right maybe prophecies also means any teachings. Maybe, not sure. But anyways, I am sure that no prophet in the Bible has been perfect of what they have teached in their lifes.
@niksilvourbolt Did brigham young even made prophecies??? Did he say, oh God is going to come on May 22, 2011?? By the way a church believes that, and they also claim they are based on the whole Bible.
Oh, by did he ever! My favorite one is how he claimed that marriage between white and delightsome people and blacks would FOREVER be punished by the death penalty. "Don't marry that n*gger, or we'll hang you both!"
that was false. The LDS Church itself proved Young a liar.
Young also said that plural marriage was required to become a God and that "this will always be so". The LDS repudiated polygamy.
"Why would God sent a delusion to a person who tries to be sincere and dont harm people?"
Sometimes, it is punishment UPON THE PEOPLE AND THE PROPHETS. Remeber: "1 Kings 22:23 Yahweh has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these your prophets."
On speculatng evil against our brothers, the Bible says "He wore cursing as his garment;iit entered into his body like water, into his bones like oil. ...This is the reward which my accusers seek from the Lord, those who speak evil against my life!... My assailants shall be put to shame, and thy servant shall be glad! My accusers shall be clothed with dishonor; they shall be wrapped in their own shame as in a mantle!"
"1John 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
@niksilvourbolt So Brigham Young was a true prophet when he was acting like a prophet, he was a false teacher (well maybe) when he was acting like a Human. Anyways, I know he was a good man (not perfect), servent of God, and he was a prophet. Actually you can even disbelieve what he said as a human. hey read the comment I just made below, I responded to myself SOrry LoL
@niksilvourbolt What is a false prophet?? someone who is teaching something false, but when he is not teaching something false he is not a false prophet, if he is giving a good message. And by the way, the old testament has been altered, some people believe that the first five books of moses had multiple authors.
@TheSkepticChristian BUT ANYWAYS YOU SHOULDN'T LISEN TO A FALSE PROPHET, of course. We should be ware of false prophets, but anyways, Brigham young is a true prophet. because God said it.
"but anyways, Brigham young is a true prophet. because God said it."
No, God said that people who use His name false are FALSE PROPHETS. Brigham Young said he was a true prophet. THE LDS CHURCH SAID HE WAS A TRUE PROPHET.
God is above Young, an above the LDS Church. Young cannot say to God "your Words are false! i am your true prophet!"
"when he is not teaching something false he is not a false prophet, "
So in your opinion, Young was sometimes a false prophet, sometimes a true prophet? Is that right?
That is not true. The Bible says that it takes only one false prophecy (once you start claiming direction from the Lord) to prove yourself a false prophet.
Otherwise, the ONLY kind of false prophet is the one who NEVER utters any truth.
@niksilvourbolt there are many ways to interpret the Old testament, no one has proven what the old testament says, but like I been saying all this time, if he was wrong, he was not prophecing, becauase its not found in LDS canon. We believe this is the prophecy, the LDS canon, now show me were any prophcy fails??? If the Adam theory was found in LDS Canon, that would be something else, now we can see if it was a true or false prochecy.
@niksilvourbolt To me the believe in the popularly understood Adam theory, is like beleving that God had sexual relations with Marry, some people believe that, its okay, But the Church has no official position on that issue, nor the church claims that. Others believe in the Trinity, but people might still feel the holy ghost, and be servents of GOD. The Adam Theory is no big deal, but a stupid interpretation, and its not even a prophecy.
"But the Church has no official position on that issue, nor the church claims that."
It's bcause the LDS Church is full of cowards. They know that saying their Prophets were false would mean that their religion is undermined and proven false as well. After all, 'how can the prophet of God be a false prophet?!'
So they came up with this nonsense about being able to lie about God while also being a prophet of God. That is blasphemy. That is stupid logic. That is evil.
@niksilvourbolt PLUS that old testament scripture was talking about prophecies, not about personal intepretations, opinions, or beliefs. but I will respond give me a moment.
@TheSkepticChristian "PLUS that old testament scripture was talking about prophecies, not about personal intepretations, opinions, or beliefs. "
You are lost. You are trying to convince yourself that a person can lie about God and yet still be a true prophet. THE BIBLE CLEARLY REJECTS THAT KIND OF RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT.
@niksilvourbolt Hey I could easily disprove what you just said about marriage and blacks, give me a moments, cowards?? you dont undersatnd LDS theology. Lisen the Adam theory is just a belief, its not evil (if Brigham young was wrong). Now you say that if we express our beliefs, and they are wrong, we are going to Hell? By let me respond to you about the blacks issue.
"Now you say that if we express our beliefs, and they are wrong"
No, my friend. I'm saying that if you claim to be a prophet of God (as Brigham did) and you lie about God (as Brigham did) and falsify God's nature (as Brigham did) then you are a false prophet.
Example:
"I AM A PROPHET OF GOD! My sheep, listen to me: SATAN IS ACTUALLY GOD!"- That is a false prophet.
"I am not a prophet of God, I believe in predestination"- not a false prophet, even if he is wrong.
@niksilvourbolt find then, if you want to look at it that, suppose that Brigham Young was wrong about the Adam theory. Okay Brigham Youn was a false prophet then, the Human Brigham Young, But not the prophet Brigham Young. The prophet Brigham Young had the spirit of prophesy. So the human= false prophet, the acting prophet = true prophet. And like you said, You dont have to believe in the human, Accordign to you, If he is found wrong once, then he is a false prophet.
"But not the prophet Brigham Young. The prophet Brigham Young had the spirit of prophesy. So the human= false prophet, the acting prophet = true prophet."
That isn't how it works.
God said that one who falsely uses his name to the sheep are to be shunned. So my advice is to shun Young. God said that one who falsely uses his name to the sheep are without the Spirit. So Young cannot be a legitimate prophet. Ever.
@niksilvourbolt Okay then, don't lisen to the human Brigham young, just the prophet Brigham Young. Like president mcconkey said, "Brigham young contradicted Brigham young". But anyways, how can you be so sure that you are understanding the Bible correctly??????? How can you be so sure that the hole Bible is not tampered??
"How can you be so sure that the hole Bible is not tampered?"
I have faith in the Bible, not some article of fact. in the same way, you have to chose between the Bible and Mormonism. Between Brigham Young and the Word of God. No facts, just faith. This is where the SPIRIT is left to guide us.
"Okay then, don't lisen to the human Brigham young, just the prophet Brigham Young.'
Your statement is duplicitous and illogical. The man Brigham Young and the "Prophet" Brigham Young are the exact same person. God does not differentiate between them, so why are you?
@niksilvourbolt I dont think that Brigham Young was prophecing when he was talking about the black people. But anyways, to see a full responce, I will sent it to you in a message now, so read the message before responding. I will write briefly something here "Brigham Young's comments were a condemnation of abuse and rape of helpless black women, and not an overtly racist statement condemning interracial marriage"
@TheSkepticChristian "I dont think that Brigham Young was prophecing when he was talking about the black people. "
He was, my friend: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO"
He was a racist, he predicted interracial marriage was forbidden by execution USING GOD'S NAME.
@niksilvourbolt You really don't understand LDS theology, and you are still being unfair about attacking noncanical statements of the true prophet Brigham Young. But lets get it fair now, why don't we talk now about Evolution? about the Book, "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" or that the first five books of Moses had multiple authors. Why don't we talk about the claim that the Trinity come from Greek philosophy?
"Why don't we talk about the claim that the Trinity come from Greek philosophy? "
I don't want to talk about that until I understand how you can reconcile the contradictions of one person who both prophesies falsely against the Lord, and then allegedly prophesies rightly in His name.
@niksilvourbolt Okay IF brigham Yound said in God's name, about the adam theory, (and if he is wrong), If he did that, the Human Brigham Yound did it. okay, so you don't have to follow the human Brigham Young, he is already proven to be a false prophet. But we should follow the True Prohet Brigham Young, he has not been proven to be false, show me in the D&C any false statemets????
@niksilvourbolt Did you read what I just said below??? and also, the true prophet Brigham Young has never been found to make a false statement. Show me where?????
"also, the true prophet Brigham Young has never been found to make a false statement. Show me where?"
Your logic is broken, my friend. You first say that a prophets can only be true when he is being true, but you also say a false prophet is only false when he is false.
By your definition I could NEVER show an instance of ANY "true" prophet being false. I would also have to condone AS PROPHETS BUDDHA, HITLER, MUHAMMAD, HITCHENS, AND SATAN ANYTIME THEY SAY ANYTHING TRUE.
@niksilvourbolt I said that I prophet is a prophet when he is acting like a prophet. supposibly the human Brigham young was supposibly using God's name to teach the adam theory. Find then you dont have to believe in him. But please lisen to the true prophet Brigham Young. "Brigham young contradicted Brigham Young". Also, Buddah received portions of truth. anyways, show me a mistake of the true prophet brigham young, his statements for doctrine are in the LDS canon. Show me??
"I said that I prophet is a prophet when he is acting like a prophet"
And that logic is terrible. If Muhammad says "God is great, on the last day there will be a resurrection" then BY YOUR LOGIC he is a true prophet of God. But if he later says "Jesus is not the Son of God" then for that moment, he is a false prophet.
Do you understand? You are CONDONING LIARS AND FALSE PROPHETS. God doesn't give such leniency. God says that all it takes is ONE false prophesy.
"supposibly the human Brigham young was supposibly using God's name to teach the adam theory. "
Your logic is the worst kind of apologetics. I don't say that to be hurtful, rother. I am genuinely saddened and upset by the way you have excused that behavior. We don't say "He is only a murderer when he is murdering!"
Yet you are claiming that a man can speak falsely of the Lord and still be a prophet. Do you understand?
This point is so important, I want you to see it and meditate on it:
You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be called a true prophet.
You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet.
You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet. a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet...
@niksilvourbolt "ONE false prophesy", so did peter make a false prophesy for dening Christ?? It was a human peter, but not the prophet Peter. you don't have to lisen to the human Peter, but to the prophet peter, which his statements are found in the New Testament. The human peters statements are not found in the new testament. anyways, please read below, I know what is going on here. We have two different points of view, I explained in the previous comment.
"so did peter make a false prophesy for dening Christ?"
No. He didn't use the Lord's name. He was denying being associated with Christ (a gross sin, but not the act f a false prophet).
Now, if Peter had said "I don't know the man, but GOD TOLD ME HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH" then peter would have been a false prophet, because he is using God's name and claiming a message from God THAT IS NOT TRUE.
@niksilvourbolt "then peter would have been a false prophet" If Brigham Young was wrong, he though that what he was teaching to be true, becuase he had chemical reactions in the Brain, not becuase he wanted to deceive people, he was sincere and a human.
Let's get something straight. There is no "human Peter" or "Prophet Peter". This is the same man we are talking about. It's just Peter, who happens to be a Prophet. god isn't judging Peter separately as "human" and "prophet" and the Lord told us we are to shun anyone who claims to be a prophet, yet speaks falsely using the Lord's name.
@niksilvourbolt There is no "human Peter" or "Prophet Peter". Oh so I see you believe Peter to be infallible, like the Bible right? he must have been perfect in everything he said, maybe he didn't need to respend ever, Do you believe that??? Didn't peter claim to be a disciple of Christ before denying Christ??? you are being so unfair again to compare canon statements of peter with uncanon statements of Brigham Young, Compare canon with canon please. We don't have noncanon epistles of peter.
@niksilvourbolt "Brigham Young was a false prophet" Okay, then the Human Young was a false prophet, but the prophet Brigham young is a true prophet. The true prophet statements can be found in official church doctrine. like if we were talking about 2 people in a sense. "Brigham young contradicted Brigham Young". Buddah, I never said he was an apostle, I just said that he received postions of truth. Like many people today receieve portions of truth, does not mean they know everything.
"Okay, then the Human Young was a false prophet, but the prophet Brigham young is a true prophet."
God is telling you that he doesn't recognize 2 different people. He doesn't recognize 2 different functions of the same person. If you lie on God's behalf you are a false prophet and can NEVER BE TRUSTED AGAIN. YOU CANNOT BE A TRUE OR LEGITIMATE PROPHET AFTER THAT. What you are doing is using a double standard. "He's not a liar unless he's lying!" That logic is lunacy.
@niksilvourbolt "God is telling you that he doesn't recognize 2 different people" Where does it say that Bible? and its not two different functions of the same person. The Human Brigham Young has is own functions, the prophet Brigham Young is like a instrument becuase God is speaking, its the function of God, not the function of the human Brigham Young.
@niksilvourbolt The issue is, that we have two different points of view, you have other eyes. You believe in Sola scritura, but I believe in modern revelation and scripture. Like I understand what you are saying, but you just have another point of view, which I understand, and I understand it becuase you don't have a testimony of the church, like I do. I know that Brigham Young was a prophet of God. Many people say they have found many contradictions, problems, and errrors, in the Bible.
"The issue is, that we have two different points of view, you have other eyes."
No, the issue is that you refuse to believe the Bible.
Do you realize that under your logic, a President of your Church could lie using God's name 99.9% of the time he opens his mouth, and yet-according to you- if he only issues an "official doctrine" concerning the remaining .1%, and that remaining .1% is truth, then HE IS A TRUE PROPHET?
@niksilvourbolt (it dosent mater if the human Brigham Young spoke many times, he is not my God) In a sense this is my prophet, for doctrine " With divine inspiration, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles ( counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture, official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Which you won't disprove .
"Like I understand what you are saying, but you just have another point of view,"
And likewise, I see some Mormon doctrines and can respect them for being well reasoned (though I reject them for various reasons).
But your notion about Brigham being a prophet only when he is acting like a prophet is not one of those well reasoned issues we simply disagree upon. That concept is poorly reasoned. It's bad logic. It's an awful reasoning, and I hope you will see that.
The Bible says that it takes only ONE FALSE PROPHESY to become a false prophet. The Bible says that once a false prophet has spoken falsely, he must be shunned. The Bible says that anyone who speaks falsely of God NEVER HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Think about that. Young never had the Spirit, so how could he be a prophet?
@niksilvourbolt "The Bible says that anyone who speaks falsely of God NEVER HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT" Where? But anyways, well of course is Brigham Young was mistaken about the Adam theory, he was not inspired, he just had chemical reactions in the brain. So the human brigham Young you dont have to lisen to, but the prophet brigham young who is inspired, again you find his statements in official church doctrine. Also, who feels the holy spirit, oness pentecostals or Trinitarians?
Did you not know that a little bit of lying destroys the entire truth?
ave you ever hear the phrase "the truth, the WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTING BUT THE TRUTH?" Don't you understand why that is so very important?
The scripture says "a little yeast works it way through the whole batch". This is true of ies, as well. If part of a ministry is a lie, the whole thing must be discarded.
@niksilvourbolt "it takes is ONE false prophesy" I think its refering to charlatans, people who intentionally deceive you, people that do harm, children of hell, I don't think its talking about people who believe in stupid speculations, otherwise we would all be false prophets, every single human. Please Read my previous comments, I explain how we both have two different points of view. Like I said, you don't have to lisen to the Human Peter who denied Christ, but the Prophet Peter.
"it takes is ONE false prophesy" I think its refering to charlatans, people who intentionally deceive you,"
Why don't you see through this, brother? The scripture simply says to shun anyone who does not bring the right word. It does NOT differentiate, so either INTENTIONAL OR NOT...
so let's put this into practice: Did Brigham bring a true word of God when he said God was Adam?
If God is not Adam, then the Bible commands you to shun Young.
@niksilvourbolt "then the Bible commands you to shun Young" I been telling you that you dont have to lisen to the HUMAN Brigham Young. Lisen to the prophet Brigham Young. He is an instrument, God used him. You find examples in LDS official Doctrine. Now let me see what my friends think, give me a moment. Let me see what they think of your claims. then I will respond to you again.
"I been telling you that you dont have to lisen to the HUMAN Brigham Young."
This is getting ridiculous, sir. Young is a human. He is responsible for all his lies about God so long as he claims he has the Holy Spirit, is an apostle, is a prophet, or claims some priesthood or kingship/presidency.
You didn't answer my questions from earlier. If Young wrote a Book called "SATAN IS GOD: THE UNOFFICIAL (BUT TRUE) WORD OF BRIGHAM YOUNG"
Let's pretend that the book is entirely devoted to the idea that Satan is actually God. Let's further pretend that Young has a forward where he claims that the book is 100% TRUE, but even still, it is not officially recognized by the LDS church.
@niksilvourbolt iF BRigham Young wrote a book called "SATAN IS GOD: THE UNOFFICIAL (BUT TRUE) WORD OF BRIGHAM YOUNG" He would NOT be sincere, and clearly a charlatan. HE would be intentionally lying. But he did not write such thing.
Let's further pretend that Young says in this book (SATAN IS GOD: THE UNOFFICIAL (BUT TRUE) WORD OF THE PROPHET BRIGHAM YOUNG) that God revealed all this to him as truth.
So there you go: Young writes a book claiming that God revealed to Young that He is actually Satan, but Young recognizes in the forward that the LDS church doesn't agree with this doctrine.
Is that enough to make Young a false prophet, and if yes, then how is that any different from what Young said of Adam?
@niksilvourbolt I responded to you already, if he were to say that, he would not be sincere, he would have been playing games with the people. Hey would have been intentionllly lying, and he would be a children of Hell. But the Prophet, nor the human, Brigham Young ever said that. Brigham young Never said that. But as for Adam theory, its just something that he sincerly believed.
@niksilvourbolt Okay assuming that Brigham young did really mean about the Adam Theory as popularly understood. And assume he was sincere about what you just told me, well I dont know how one person can be sincere about that, but the Adam theory could easily fit the mentality of a Christian. But if he was sincere, he must have had Brain damage, he would have been to OLD, and guess what, that is okay also. Becuase he would be mentally ill. But NO brigham Young did not say such strong thing.
"he was sincere, he must have had Brain damage, he would have been to OLD,"
Young said this in the early-to-mid 1850s. Meaning he was only 50 when he started lying about God. He wasn't some old alzheimer patient. And he wasn't even ten years into his 30 year presidency. He continued claiming this doctrine was true for over 20 years until his death.
@niksilvourbolt ""But NO brigham Young did not say such strong thing." I AM talking about the claim about the Devil, not about the adam theory. But anyways, for the Adam theory how do you know that stamement was not a scribal error? Or how do you know it could not be interpreted another way?? maybe we will have clarification oneday, (like Bible scriptures that appear to be contradicting), or maybe he was just wrong, but it was the Human Brigham young, not the prophet.
"I AM talking about the claim about the Devil, not about the adam theory. "
Ah, so lying about God by saying God is Satan is clearly the work of a false prophet, but lying about God by saying he is Adam is NOT the work of a false prophet.
Care to explain why?
Any rational person would agree that there IS NO DIFFERENCE whether Yong falsely claimed Adam was God, or falsely claimed Satan was God. In BOTH SCENARIOS, Young is lying about God.
@niksilvourbolt "Care to explain why?" can you explain to me the other old testament scriptures?? I already told you the difference, teaching that about the Devil, is clearly the work of someone Intentionally lying, and making fun the of the people. But Brigham young was sincere about the adam theory. and Like I said before, you dont have to lisen to the Human Brigham, lisen to the prophet Brigham, which statements are found in LDS doctrine.
@niksilvourbolt Okay I just send you a message explaining, but for the other ones, prophet Jeremiah said ((Jeremiah 34:4-5), but this appears to be a false prophesy to the critics. also, 2 Samuel 7:5-17, Yet this prophecy clearly did not prove successful if it is interpreted literally.
"(Jeremiah 34:4-5), but this appears to be a false prophesy to the critics. "
If they don't have a good understanding of eschatology, I'm sure it does. But the Prince of Tyre is the Antichrist, who claims to be god (Ez 28), The father of this Prince is the devil or "King of Tyre" "who was in the Garden of Eden" (Ez 28:13).
This prophecy will be fulfilled at the end of time, when the Antichrist (one of whose titles is the Prince of Tyre/ Ruler of Lebanon) is destroyed.
Except that young said every word he preached could be taken as scripture... or is that just another moment where he is acting as a false prophet (but somehow is magically still a true prophet)?
@niksilvourbolt "Except that [the human brigham] young said" anyways, of course, when he is acting like a prophet, everything he says its scripture. his tatements are found in the official Lds doctrine.
My friend, you are ridiculous. I say that out of love.
Here, you have a man lying to your face, telling you he is a prophet, telling you every sermon he gives should be considered as true as scripture, telling you God revealed this doctrine to him... AND YOU ARE STILL DEFENDING HIM.
Don't you know this man is insulting the One True God and misleading sheep? Young is like the antichrist or Annanias or Jezebel. All these say a true word of God and mix it with falseness.
@niksilvourbolt Where is the evidence that "Annanias or Jezebel" were prophets? or that they at least once acted like prophets?? For Brigham Young there is evidence, its found in the official LDS doctrine. But the human Brigham young made errors, and its okay, he didnt commit the unforgivable sin, can't someone repent for errors? I say that out of love, BUT Richard Dawkins says that religious people, including us Christians, are ridiculous.
"I already told you the difference, teaching that about the Devil, is clearly the work of someone Intentionally lying, and making fun the of the people. But Brigham young was sincere about the adam theory."
And I already told you that Muhammad was sincere in his belief that Christ was not the Son of God.
Sincerity has NOTHING to do with truth. You can spread a lie whether you know it is a lie or not.
"you dont have to lisen to the Human Brigham, lisen to the prophet Brigham, "
Young WAS PROPHESYING!
Any time you stand up among the people and claim to be a Prophet of God, you are prophesying!
According to you, Young was free to spread all the falsehood in the world so long as he sincerely believed it. That is EVIL, my friend. Don't spread that lie.
@niksilvourbolt Supposibly, assuming no scribal errors, "Young WAS PROPHESYING!" It was the Human, not the prophet, like the scriputure in Deut. says "if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken" and the adam theory is not even a prophecy. you dont have to lisen to the human Brigham Young lisen to the Prophet Brigham Young, His statements are found in official LDS doctrine. "Young was free to spread " humans are not perfect.
If you want to play that game, I can undermine the entire Book of Mormon. Who can say what is and is not a scribal error in your book, or any book for that matter?
You really think that FOR TWENTY YEARS Young taught this doctrine and for that entire 2 decade period people were misunderstanding Young and transcribing him wrongly?
@niksilvourbolt I never said THAT everything recorded for the adam theory was a scribal error, but maybe some were scribal erros. Never said that all the statements were scribal errors. , The message of the Book of Mormon is perfect, and a good examples of scribal errrors are found in the Bible.
If any come to you with a different Gospel let him be a cursed even if it comes from an angel.
gtxss 1 month ago
Dem der Mormon folk gotsa duh duh duh different Jebus.
PoderdelChino 10 months ago
@candiceevans1 What are you talking about??? JS never made a false prophecy. Nor any LDS prophet acting in the name of the Lord. Now for BY, what he said, was never canonized, so it can't be considered prophecy for us. Also we are not so sure what he meant, what if watson's interpretation of BY is correct?? If you study his interpretation, it fits perfectly, with the exception of like 2% I think, but they may not be complete quotes of BY. if he was just wrong, it was the human, not the prophet.
TheSkepticChristian 10 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian I don't like the idea of mormanism. I've read their Religious text and I could feel an evil spirit behind it.
tallwolf2012 4 days ago
iN A SENSE, this is my prophet, for doctrine " With divine inspiration, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Also Peter or Paul must have made a lot of statements outside the New testament canon.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
Okay people I found the truth, you dont have to believe in the human Brigham Young, he made mistakes but please lisen to the Prophet Brigham Young, he was a true prophet, his statements can be found in official LDS doctrine.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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HE WOULD HAVE HAD Alzheimer's, "That is not any better, my friend" Thats not true, the Adam Theory could fit the mentality of a good chrisitian, and THAT is why the church had to declared that its false, as poplulary understood. But that God is satan that is something unacceptable, and a person would be playing games if he were to say that. No sincere Christian, LDS or protestant would accept that.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
Acting Prophet = With divine inspiration, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
Okay people, the human brigham young has supposibly been found, that he made a false statement, so you don't have to believe in him. But please lisen to the Prophet Brigham Young, he never has been found saying anything false.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
When will the Church denounce the founders of Mormonism for their blatant racism?
Even Young is a KNOW false prophet... EVEN AMONG MORMONS, and yet you still honor him?
Young said Adam was God. WHY ARE MORMONS NOT DENOUNCING HIM FOR THAT HERESY?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt The official position of the Church for the Adam-God theory, is that it is false doctrine. But, Brigham Young was a true prophet of GOD.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"The official position of the Church for the Adam-God theory, is that it is false doctrine. "
And by some absurdity, the church refuses to shun the false prophet. That is great foolishness. It's like condemning the act of murder yet letting the murderer run free and with high esteem.
It's nonsense, and the Bible clearly warns false prophets to be shunned. But Mormons can't do so, because they have believed a lie concerning the "President's authority."
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"But, Brigham Young was a true prophet of GOD. "
So a true prophet of God uses God's name for the purpose of disparaging races?
A true prophet of God can lie about who God is?
One of us is a madman.
The word of the Lord is that a true prophet speaks truth, and a false prophet is to be avoided and shunned.
How you could hold such a man in high esteem is astonishing. He is a liar, who you ARE CERTAIN led sheep astray.
Young was Satanic, not Spirit-filled.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt So that is how a prophet acts in God's name, like I just showed you in the comment below. If its not in there, then its not scripture, would you be interrested in Peters or Paul's personal opinions or epistles if its not found in the NT?? Also, Moses attributed a miracle to himself and he was not perfect (Numbers 20). Look at Jonah in Jonah 4:1. By the way, if you don't think scribal errors happen, can you please explain to me Deut. 34:5?
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"would you be interrested in Peters or Paul's personal opinions or epistles if its not found in the NT??"
Absolutely. If they speak falsely of God in private, then they would be false prophets.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt :Absolutely. If they speak falsely of God in private, then they would be false prophets" How do you know that Peter didn't say anything wrong??? we don't have his writting or his sermonts recorded. All we have is the official canon, the NT. Something false won't make it to the canon, nor church official doctrine. Jesus' apostles were not always perfectly humble or modest. They once disputed over which of them would be the greatest in heaven. (Mark 9:34)
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"How do you know that Peter didn't say anything wrong??"
What you ask of me is a sin: The scriptures command that I NOT GO AROUND ASSUMING anything, but rather to test against the word. Peter passes. Young has failed completely and miserably.
I'm not going to indulge your fantasy about Peter, that would be sin. When you have evidence, present it, but just as you would not want me speculating about whether your wife is cheating on you, nor will I speculate of Peter.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Also, Moses attributed a miracle to himself and he was not perfect "
I'm not talking about merely sinning. The Bible is clear that all men sin. Moses disobeyed God. That makes him a sinner, not a false prophet. The Bible clearly differentiates between the two.
Brigham Young is one of those whom the Lord spoke of when he said "If anyone comes to you and does not bring the right teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,"
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt That's what I am saying, how do you know that Moses didn't teach anything wrong??? All we have is the canon, and false doctrines won't get in the canon. Today in the church, false doctrines won't get in the canon. So if you show me something false in the canon, I will start to doubt.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"So if you show me something false in the canon, I will start to doubt. "
There's plenty of falsehood in Mormonism. The "translation" of Egyptian Papyri is a blatant falsehood, the idea that Lehites and Nepites spanned America has been proven false, "reformed Egyptian" is an absurdity among Egyptologists and linguists, many of Smith's prophecies are false.
But you likely knew these things, and spoke wrong when you said you would change if you had proof.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Lisen either 1) The prophet of GOD was wrong 2) Watsons interpretation 3) he didn't live long enough to clarify what he meant, to reconcile with LDS scripture, its one of those 3. But if he was wrong, its not big deal, the adam theory he taught is not big deal, becuase he was acting like a human, he just had electro-chemical process that occurs in the brain, he didn't mean to lie, but he sincerly loved God. And God loved him.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"if he was wrong, its not big deal, the adam theory he taught is not big deal, becuase he was acting like a human, he just had electro-chemical process that occurs in the brain, he didn't mean to lie, but he sincerly loved God."
That's disgusting. What you are doing, I mean. You are justifying things you know to be false about our Lord. You have doe this using illogical, poorly reasoned argumentation that cannot stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
Why do you do this?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt The prophet Brigham young was a human also, like Moses, Peter, Paul, he was not perfect. So he made a human mistake OR (read above first) "....However, Watson's theory has not been widely accepted for several reasons: (a) it is not widely known, (b) it assumes that those in Brigham Young's audience understood that he was talking about two Adams, and (c) Brigham never directly explained his Adam-God teachings in the way Watson interprets them." But anyways, he was a prophet of GOD
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt The prophet Brigham young was a human also, like Moses, Peter, Paul, he was not perfect. So he made a human mistake OR (read above first) "....However, Watson's theory has not been widely accepted for several reasons: (a) it is not widely known, (b) it assumes that those in Brigham Young's audience understood that he was talking about two Adams, and (c) Brigham never directly explained his Adam-God teachings in the way Watson interprets them." But anyways, he was a prophet of GOD
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"The prophet Brigham young was a human also,"
I'm not disputing his humanity. I am disputing his "status" as Prophet, as the Bible instructs: "Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
Brigham Young used God's name to spread hatred about black people, to condone MURDER for interracial marriage, and claimed that Adam was God. It's wretched blasphemy. This was NOT a man of God.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"But anyways, he was a prophet of GOD"
That's a falsehood. God disowns the prophets who speak falsely in His Name:
"Romans 16- I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive"
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
now let us test Young under the criteria: Did Young cause divisions and create obstacles by using contradictory Gospel? Oh, yes. He threatened interracial marriages with murder and lied about the nature of God by saying God was Adam.
And let us not pretend Young said any different. By Young's own word:
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt 1) The prophet of GOD was wrong 2) Watsons interpretation 3) he didn't live long enough to clarify what he meant, to reconcile with LDS scripture.But the Adam-God theory as popularly understood, is not the doctrine of the Church. First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. It resides in 4 books canon, official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"But the Adam-God theory as popularly understood, is not the doctrine of the Church."
IT WAS THE DOCTRINE OF YOUR PRESIDENT!
You are playing a game; equivocating. It's insulting to intelligence. "Oh, he isn't a liar unless he announces his statement is official!" That's absurd. If I say "your mother was a prostitute, you are a liar and a horsethief" and someone issues the thin apology "don't worry, that wasn't his official doctrine" what comfort have you been given?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
By your logic, Yong was free to go around claiming Satan is our true lord and master so long as he never said "this is the offical doctrine of the church" as if that magically erases the enormous sin and downgrades the magnitude of the offense. That logic is so absurd as to be comical.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Lisen, IF Brigham Young did really mean "Adam-God theory as popularly understood" that Adam was the Father, then it was a mistake, he didn't meant it. He must have been hallucinating, he sincerly believe it, and its no big deal. But God is so woderfull, that he did not allow that doctrine to be official church doctrine. Like it says on D&C, GOD won't allow true prophets to mislead the people. we as humans mistake weird voices with the voices of the spirit.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian "Lisen, IF Brigham Young did really mean "Adam-God theory as popularly understood" that Adam was the Father, then it was a mistake,"
That's an understatement. It was a LIE ABOUT WHO GOD IS. That makes Young a false prophet.
" He must have been hallucinating, he sincerly believe it, and its no big deal."
Your position is ridiculous, my friend. You could literally write off anything he saysunder your logic.
-"Satan is Lord!"
-"that's just the hallucination talking."
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
By refusing to discard Young, Mormons have become like the Church of Thratira:
"20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: YOU TOLERATE that woman Jezebel, WHO CALLS HERSELF A PROPHET. BY HER TEACHING SHE MISLEADS MY SERVANTS.... 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I WILL MAKE THOSE WHO COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER SUFFER INTENSELY, unless they repent of her ways. "
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian "He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. "
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "According to Watson, the reason modern readers miss this is our failure to take into account all of Brigham's sermons in context. Watson has the advantage of being more familiar with Brigham Young's sermons than perhaps any other living researcher, and he does clearly grasp that Brigham did not equate Elohim/Jehovah/Michael with God the Father/Jesus Christ/Adam as modern Latter-day Saints do. However, Watson's theory has not been widely accepted for several reasons: ....."
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "LDS researcher Elden Watson, editor of the multi-volume Brigham Young Addresses, believes that Brigham used the term "Adam" as a name-title for both God the Father ("Adam Sr.") and the man Adam ("Adam Jr."), comparable to the way "Elias" is used as a title meaning "forerunner" and applied to various people."
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
""LDS researcher Elden Watson, editor of the multi-volume Brigham Young Addresses, believes that Brigham used the term "Adam" as a name-title for both God the Father ("Adam Sr.") and the man Adam"
LDS researcher Watson is a sorry apologist... at best. At worst, an outright liar:
I
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our FATHER and our GOD,"
Was God married to Eve? Watson's argument is pathetic beyond belief. Young is QUITE PLAINLY equating God with Adam.
Young was a false prophet.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I said, either the true prophet of GOD was wrong, OR its like Watson interprets it. Pathetic? just ask him and he will give you a response. If Watson's interpretation is correct, on what you just said below, here are some speculation possibilities to what Brigham young might have meant, 1) Adam is God in the sense of Ex 4:16; 7:1. 2) Michael, Archangel had a different meaning to Brigham young, ancient of Days applied to God. For Eve Heavenly Mother Eve, not daugther Eve.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I said, either the true prophet of GOD was wrong, "
Not just "wrong". But falsely using God's name to promote untrue doctrines that spread a message that leads to death.
"f Watson's interpretation is correct, on what you just said below, here are some speculation possibilities to what Brigham young might have meant, 1) Adam is God in the sense of Ex 4:16; 7:1. 2"
You aren't being fair to the context of Young's statement. Young said God was married to Eve.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Like I said, read all my previous comments first. Maybe Heavenly mother eve, not daughther eve. Lisen if its not in the 4 holy canon books, and if it is not in official declarations and proclamations, he was acting like a human. Doctrine is establish on those 4 canonical books, official declarations and proclamations, and articles of Faith, and if its not there, I am not interrested. So since Peter denied Christ, does that make him a false apostle??
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"2) Michael, Archangel had a different meaning to Brigham young, "
That much is obvious. The question isn't whether Young had a different meaning (again, that is obvious) but whether his expression of that meaning made him a false prophet... AND IT DID!
God isn't wishy-washy on this point. CONTRADICTORY DOCTRINE = FALSE PROPHET = CURSE. God spits these false prophets out of His mouth, and warns people not to listen to them. SO WHY ARE MORMONS STILL HONORING YOUNG?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt If you show me the were the Adam-theory is on the 4 canonical books, or official declarations and proclamations, and articles of Faith, then I will start to Doubt. Show me were, show me on the Word of God, not on the words of men. Brigham young is not my God, is was just a servent of GOD. You could find in D&C Brigham young's words.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I just gave 2 possibilities, maybe I am wrong but you would have to ask Watson, how he interprets what you just said. Anyways, another possibility, maybe that statment is not quoted accurately.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt IF one day, archaeologists discover documents with Peter's opinions, would you be interested if it was not in the New testament??????? what if he said that the earth was flat? By the way, Peter denied Christ, after having confessed who Christ was, after being called to the ministry, and given the keys of the kingdom, thats in NT. But anyways, Brigham young was a Prophet of GOD. Please read all my comments before responding, so I don't have to respond to you the samething again.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"IF one day, archaeologists discover documents with Peter's opinions, would you be interested if it was not in the New testament? what if he said that the earth was flat?"
Then he is a false teacher. Asking me to speculate ill of Peter is a distraction from Young's sin.
"By the way, Peter denied Christ"
Yes, he was a sinner. But a sinner is not necessarily a false prophet. A liar is not necessarily a false prophet. But a false prophet is a liar and a sinner.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt One can interpret that when Peter denied Christ, by dening him, its also teaching that Jesus was not Christ, becuase he lied. Its the same thing. and he did it intentionally. But God forgave him, and he was an apostle. like Brigham young was a man of GOD, (hey read the previous comment) anyways, I have to go to church again. but I will be back and respond to your comments. I can guarantee you that Brigham Young did not mean to Lie!
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"One can interpret that when Peter denied Christ, by dening him, its also teaching that Jesus was not Christ,"
I agree that is a fair interpretation. But I don't believe it. Peter is denying KNOWING Christ. That much is certain. He is certainly lying about his involvement with Christ, but peter never officially denies what he knows is Christ's nature. Perhaps Peter is doubting it himself. This doesn't make Peter a false prophet; it makes him a coward and a liar.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Peter was NOT a false prophet, thats why his teachingss are in the NT. However, how do you know that he didn't teach something false, outside the NT? Like earth being flat? Something false won't make it to the canon? And by the way, Brigham Young was acting like a prophet when he gave the Section 136 of D&C, (acting like a prophet to reveal new doctrine). I don't care what the human side of the prophets say, its not scripture.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"However, how do you know that he didn't teach something false, outside the NT? "
I have no reason to speculate that he did. i DO have reason-indeed, proof- to say that Young was a false prophet.
You may as well ask me "what if Christ claimed he was no the Son of God outside of scripture".
There's no need to speculate on fantasy; reality is before us, and in that reality, Young has proven himself a false prophet.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "what if Christ claimed he was no the Son of God outside of scripture" well Christ was and is perfect. However, the difference between a false prophet is that a false prophet deceives people, becuase now the official position of the church is that adam theory is false. Nor did Brigham young knowingly teach something false, he believed what he taught, he was not trying to deceive. Also, ...
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"well Christ was and is perfect."
Now you are denying your own hypothetical. If this is your response, then my response to you is simply that "well, Peter was and is a true prophet".
"Nor did Brigham young knowingly teach something false"
That has NOTHING to do with whether a prophet is a FALSE PROPHET. Muhammad was a false prophet, yet surely he thought himself sincere.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
If you will recall the scriptures, God said that he sent delusion to false prophets. They THOUGHT they were giving the word of God, yet they were false. One believed it so much that he struck Jeremiah and accused Jeremiah of being a false prophet himself.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Sure ... but I think its more refering to false prophets that deceive, brigham yound did not deceive the church. Why would God sent a delusion to a person who tries to be sincere and dont harm people??? Also, Who can prove what the Bible says??? are pentecostals having a delusion? are baptist?? are jehovah's witness?? are catholics?? I mean who to believe???? I have a good respond to you to the comment you just made, give me a second.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"but I think its more refering to false prophets that deceive, brigham yound did not deceive the church."
... are you attempting to tell me that telling people that od was Adam is not a deception? That's what it sounds like.
If the words "God is Adam" or any variant came out of Young's mouth, and ANY of God's sheep heard it, then he deceived people.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt God didn't allow his human errror (if it was an error)to deceive the church, becuase the official position of the church is that the adam theory is false, hey but you are being so unfair. You attack noncanon statements about Brigham young, and you campare it with canon statements of Peter. Show me where in LDS canon do you see a false statement? What about official statements and proclamantions, show me? in a sense thats my prophet (for doctrine).
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian noncanon statements of Brigham young
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"God didn't allow his human errror (if it was an error)to deceive the church"
Did you not know that BECAUSE BRIGHAM LIED ABOUT GOD that there are churches who believe even to this day that Adam is God? Look it up! These souls are damned because of Young's evil.
The FLDS still believe it to this day. I know several LDS who believe it!
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I know that, I said into the church. The Church was not deceive. And also, they believe the Adam theory as popularly understood,
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"You attack noncanon statements about Brigham young"
God is not judging us by what we consider "canon" or "noncanon" He is judging us simply by our words.
YOU CANNOT HIDE FALSE PROPHECY BY CLAIMING IT ISN'T OFFICIAL DOCTRINE!
Imagine Young, before God at the judgment.
GOD: "Did you say that I was Adam?"
YOUNG: "YES, I DID,Ii TOLD THIS TO MANY! but... Lord! That was not my official position! i never declared it my official doctrine!"
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt But adam theory is not even a prophecy, its something that he believed. So if someone believes something false, for example, that man did not go to the moon. Is that person going to hell. We all have mistakes and not everything we believe might be correct. The Adam theory(if its is really like its popularly understood), its not a Big deal, he didn't say Jesus is not the messiah, he didn't even mean to deceive people. If he was wrong, GOd will forgive him, like he forgave Peter.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"But adam theory is not even a prophecy, its something that he believed. "
It IS NOT something he simply believed. He stood on his pulpit and told his sheep that this was truth. he spent weekends spewing false doctrine out of his mouth, and yes he DID claim that the doctrine of Adam as God came through revelation.
"We all have mistakes "
And we aren't all saved, wither. We aren't all prophets, either.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I mean just becuase of a stupid human interpretation, now you are going to deny the Church of GOD??? you don't even understand what is the church about, its purpose, its goals. We dont have to believe a prophet when he is acting like a human, but when he is acting like a prophet, then we should.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I mean just becuase of a stupid human interpretation, now you are going to deny the Church of GOD?"
I deny the LDS church for a slew of reasons. This is the one i am most furious with at the moment. Young lied about who God was, spread false doctrine, propved himself a false prophet, and the Mormon Church has the audacity to call him a man of God and a true prophet of the Lord.
They do this because the LDS CHURCH IS FALSE ITSELF!
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Read, what I just said below, but the Adam theory is not a prophesy, and I will respond to you in a few moments of your new claim.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Read, what I just said below, but the Adam theory is not a prophesy, "
You are splitting hairs... and wrongly at that, because a PROPHET IS NOT SIMPLY ONE WHO TELLS ABOUT THE FUTURE. A prophet is a human messenger of God.
Don't change the definition of prophet. It's intellectually dishonest, to yourself and to me.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "A prophet is a human messenger " So does a true prophet always have to say everything perfect?? Do all his messages have to be perfect??? Are we humans false prophets?? Yes I know what it means, but I think the context of the old testament on that scripture is talking about prophecing, but i might be wrong I am a human.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"So does a true prophet always have to say everything perfect?"
To be called a true prophet, indeed he must not lie about God.
"Are we humans false prophets?"
Many of us are.
"I think the context of the old testament on that scripture is talking about prophecing, but i might be wrong I am a human. "
A prophet does more than make predictions about the future. Abraham, Adam, Gideon, these are all prophets yet none spoke a word about the future.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I just responded to you again, read below, berry important. and I am not atalking about prophets, I am talking about prohecies. But yes you could be right maybe prophecies also means any teachings. Maybe, not sure. But anyways, I am sure that no prophet in the Bible has been perfect of what they have teached in their lifes.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Did brigham young even made prophecies??? Did he say, oh God is going to come on May 22, 2011?? By the way a church believes that, and they also claim they are based on the whole Bible.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Did brigham young even made prophecies?"
Oh, by did he ever! My favorite one is how he claimed that marriage between white and delightsome people and blacks would FOREVER be punished by the death penalty. "Don't marry that n*gger, or we'll hang you both!"
that was false. The LDS Church itself proved Young a liar.
Young also said that plural marriage was required to become a God and that "this will always be so". The LDS repudiated polygamy.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"Why would God sent a delusion to a person who tries to be sincere and dont harm people?"
Sometimes, it is punishment UPON THE PEOPLE AND THE PROPHETS. Remeber: "1 Kings 22:23 Yahweh has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these your prophets."
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
On speculatng evil against our brothers, the Bible says "He wore cursing as his garment;iit entered into his body like water, into his bones like oil. ...This is the reward which my accusers seek from the Lord, those who speak evil against my life!... My assailants shall be put to shame, and thy servant shall be glad! My accusers shall be clothed with dishonor; they shall be wrapped in their own shame as in a mantle!"
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
Moreover:
"1John 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt So Brigham Young was a true prophet when he was acting like a prophet, he was a false teacher (well maybe) when he was acting like a Human. Anyways, I know he was a good man (not perfect), servent of God, and he was a prophet. Actually you can even disbelieve what he said as a human. hey read the comment I just made below, I responded to myself SOrry LoL
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Anyways, I know he was a good man (not perfect), servent of God, and he was a prophet. "
You know this because you are deceived. You know this because you refuse to believe what the Lord plainly said:
1. One false prophecy in the name of the Lord makes you a false prophet.
2. False prophets are wolves in sheeep's clothing, and are to be SHUNNED.
3. False prophets do not have the holy Spiriit.
You are deluding yourself because you wnat to keep living LDS. IT'S A LIE
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt
Answer me this: WHAT IS A FALSE PROPHET?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt What is a false prophet?? someone who is teaching something false, but when he is not teaching something false he is not a false prophet, if he is giving a good message. And by the way, the old testament has been altered, some people believe that the first five books of moses had multiple authors.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian BUT ANYWAYS YOU SHOULDN'T LISEN TO A FALSE PROPHET, of course. We should be ware of false prophets, but anyways, Brigham young is a true prophet. because God said it.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"but anyways, Brigham young is a true prophet. because God said it."
No, God said that people who use His name false are FALSE PROPHETS. Brigham Young said he was a true prophet. THE LDS CHURCH SAID HE WAS A TRUE PROPHET.
God is above Young, an above the LDS Church. Young cannot say to God "your Words are false! i am your true prophet!"
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"when he is not teaching something false he is not a false prophet, "
So in your opinion, Young was sometimes a false prophet, sometimes a true prophet? Is that right?
That is not true. The Bible says that it takes only one false prophecy (once you start claiming direction from the Lord) to prove yourself a false prophet.
Otherwise, the ONLY kind of false prophet is the one who NEVER utters any truth.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt there are many ways to interpret the Old testament, no one has proven what the old testament says, but like I been saying all this time, if he was wrong, he was not prophecing, becauase its not found in LDS canon. We believe this is the prophecy, the LDS canon, now show me were any prophcy fails??? If the Adam theory was found in LDS Canon, that would be something else, now we can see if it was a true or false prochecy.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
What you are saying to me is that you are okay with your President lying about who God is, so long as he doesn't make it official doctrine.
Consider for a moment, you are back in the 1800s:
If you were sitting in on Young's sermon, and you heard him say "Adam is God!" What would you do?
Would you walk out on Young?
Would you stand up and scream 'Blasphemy!'?
Would you sit and keep quiet and let the lie go unrebuked?
If someone next to you asked if Young spoke falsely...?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt To me the believe in the popularly understood Adam theory, is like beleving that God had sexual relations with Marry, some people believe that, its okay, But the Church has no official position on that issue, nor the church claims that. Others believe in the Trinity, but people might still feel the holy ghost, and be servents of GOD. The Adam Theory is no big deal, but a stupid interpretation, and its not even a prophecy.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"But the Church has no official position on that issue, nor the church claims that."
It's bcause the LDS Church is full of cowards. They know that saying their Prophets were false would mean that their religion is undermined and proven false as well. After all, 'how can the prophet of God be a false prophet?!'
So they came up with this nonsense about being able to lie about God while also being a prophet of God. That is blasphemy. That is stupid logic. That is evil.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt PLUS that old testament scripture was talking about prophecies, not about personal intepretations, opinions, or beliefs. but I will respond give me a moment.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian "PLUS that old testament scripture was talking about prophecies, not about personal intepretations, opinions, or beliefs. "
You are lost. You are trying to convince yourself that a person can lie about God and yet still be a true prophet. THE BIBLE CLEARLY REJECTS THAT KIND OF RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Hey I could easily disprove what you just said about marriage and blacks, give me a moments, cowards?? you dont undersatnd LDS theology. Lisen the Adam theory is just a belief, its not evil (if Brigham young was wrong). Now you say that if we express our beliefs, and they are wrong, we are going to Hell? By let me respond to you about the blacks issue.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Now you say that if we express our beliefs, and they are wrong"
No, my friend. I'm saying that if you claim to be a prophet of God (as Brigham did) and you lie about God (as Brigham did) and falsify God's nature (as Brigham did) then you are a false prophet.
Example:
"I AM A PROPHET OF GOD! My sheep, listen to me: SATAN IS ACTUALLY GOD!"- That is a false prophet.
"I am not a prophet of God, I believe in predestination"- not a false prophet, even if he is wrong.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt find then, if you want to look at it that, suppose that Brigham Young was wrong about the Adam theory. Okay Brigham Youn was a false prophet then, the Human Brigham Young, But not the prophet Brigham Young. The prophet Brigham Young had the spirit of prophesy. So the human= false prophet, the acting prophet = true prophet. And like you said, You dont have to believe in the human, Accordign to you, If he is found wrong once, then he is a false prophet.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"But not the prophet Brigham Young. The prophet Brigham Young had the spirit of prophesy. So the human= false prophet, the acting prophet = true prophet."
That isn't how it works.
God said that one who falsely uses his name to the sheep are to be shunned. So my advice is to shun Young. God said that one who falsely uses his name to the sheep are without the Spirit. So Young cannot be a legitimate prophet. Ever.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Okay then, don't lisen to the human Brigham young, just the prophet Brigham Young. Like president mcconkey said, "Brigham young contradicted Brigham young". But anyways, how can you be so sure that you are understanding the Bible correctly??????? How can you be so sure that the hole Bible is not tampered??
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"How can you be so sure that the hole Bible is not tampered?"
I have faith in the Bible, not some article of fact. in the same way, you have to chose between the Bible and Mormonism. Between Brigham Young and the Word of God. No facts, just faith. This is where the SPIRIT is left to guide us.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"Okay then, don't lisen to the human Brigham young, just the prophet Brigham Young.'
Your statement is duplicitous and illogical. The man Brigham Young and the "Prophet" Brigham Young are the exact same person. God does not differentiate between them, so why are you?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
Further, if you don't disavow a false prophet, God says you become COMPLICIT in that crime: "whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. "
"If anyone comes to you and does not bring right teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, "
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I dont think that Brigham Young was prophecing when he was talking about the black people. But anyways, to see a full responce, I will sent it to you in a message now, so read the message before responding. I will write briefly something here "Brigham Young's comments were a condemnation of abuse and rape of helpless black women, and not an overtly racist statement condemning interracial marriage"
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian "I dont think that Brigham Young was prophecing when he was talking about the black people. "
He was, my friend: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO"
He was a racist, he predicted interracial marriage was forbidden by execution USING GOD'S NAME.
Sick, false prophet.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt You really don't understand LDS theology, and you are still being unfair about attacking noncanical statements of the true prophet Brigham Young. But lets get it fair now, why don't we talk now about Evolution? about the Book, "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" or that the first five books of Moses had multiple authors. Why don't we talk about the claim that the Trinity come from Greek philosophy?
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Why don't we talk about the claim that the Trinity come from Greek philosophy? "
I don't want to talk about that until I understand how you can reconcile the contradictions of one person who both prophesies falsely against the Lord, and then allegedly prophesies rightly in His name.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt i just answered. below, we added a comment at the same time.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
After all, if you are claiming that a person can lie about God and also still be truthful, why should I believe what you say?
Could you simply be lying to me, and then later tell me some nugget of truth?
I don't want that. I want some assurances that what yous ay in God's name are true statements.
IF EVEN YOUR PRESIDENT CAN LIE ABOUT GOD, BY WHAT REASON SHOULD I TRUST YOUR CHURCH?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Okay IF brigham Yound said in God's name, about the adam theory, (and if he is wrong), If he did that, the Human Brigham Yound did it. okay, so you don't have to follow the human Brigham Young, he is already proven to be a false prophet. But we should follow the True Prohet Brigham Young, he has not been proven to be false, show me in the D&C any false statemets????
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian "But we should follow the True Prohet Brigham Young, "
No, my friend. God says that once he gives a false word using God's name, that you can't receive him in any way.
Muhammad said that Christ was not Son of God. Then he said that there will be a resurrection of the dead.
But simply because one of those things is true, does not make Muhammad a true prophet.
God says 'woe to you who mix good with bad, and bad with good'. This is Brigham. Woe.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Did you read what I just said below??? and also, the true prophet Brigham Young has never been found to make a false statement. Show me where?????
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"also, the true prophet Brigham Young has never been found to make a false statement. Show me where?"
Your logic is broken, my friend. You first say that a prophets can only be true when he is being true, but you also say a false prophet is only false when he is false.
By your definition I could NEVER show an instance of ANY "true" prophet being false. I would also have to condone AS PROPHETS BUDDHA, HITLER, MUHAMMAD, HITCHENS, AND SATAN ANYTIME THEY SAY ANYTHING TRUE.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I said that I prophet is a prophet when he is acting like a prophet. supposibly the human Brigham young was supposibly using God's name to teach the adam theory. Find then you dont have to believe in him. But please lisen to the true prophet Brigham Young. "Brigham young contradicted Brigham Young". Also, Buddah received portions of truth. anyways, show me a mistake of the true prophet brigham young, his statements for doctrine are in the LDS canon. Show me??
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I said that I prophet is a prophet when he is acting like a prophet"
And that logic is terrible. If Muhammad says "God is great, on the last day there will be a resurrection" then BY YOUR LOGIC he is a true prophet of God. But if he later says "Jesus is not the Son of God" then for that moment, he is a false prophet.
Do you understand? You are CONDONING LIARS AND FALSE PROPHETS. God doesn't give such leniency. God says that all it takes is ONE false prophesy.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"supposibly the human Brigham young was supposibly using God's name to teach the adam theory. "
Your logic is the worst kind of apologetics. I don't say that to be hurtful, rother. I am genuinely saddened and upset by the way you have excused that behavior. We don't say "He is only a murderer when he is murdering!"
Yet you are claiming that a man can speak falsely of the Lord and still be a prophet. Do you understand?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
This point is so important, I want you to see it and meditate on it:
You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be called a true prophet.
You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet.
You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet. a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet...
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "ONE false prophesy", so did peter make a false prophesy for dening Christ?? It was a human peter, but not the prophet Peter. you don't have to lisen to the human Peter, but to the prophet peter, which his statements are found in the New Testament. The human peters statements are not found in the new testament. anyways, please read below, I know what is going on here. We have two different points of view, I explained in the previous comment.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"so did peter make a false prophesy for dening Christ?"
No. He didn't use the Lord's name. He was denying being associated with Christ (a gross sin, but not the act f a false prophet).
Now, if Peter had said "I don't know the man, but GOD TOLD ME HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH" then peter would have been a false prophet, because he is using God's name and claiming a message from God THAT IS NOT TRUE.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "then peter would have been a false prophet" If Brigham Young was wrong, he though that what he was teaching to be true, becuase he had chemical reactions in the Brain, not becuase he wanted to deceive people, he was sincere and a human.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"The human peters "
Let's get something straight. There is no "human Peter" or "Prophet Peter". This is the same man we are talking about. It's just Peter, who happens to be a Prophet. god isn't judging Peter separately as "human" and "prophet" and the Lord told us we are to shun anyone who claims to be a prophet, yet speaks falsely using the Lord's name.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt There is no "human Peter" or "Prophet Peter". Oh so I see you believe Peter to be infallible, like the Bible right? he must have been perfect in everything he said, maybe he didn't need to respend ever, Do you believe that??? Didn't peter claim to be a disciple of Christ before denying Christ??? you are being so unfair again to compare canon statements of peter with uncanon statements of Brigham Young, Compare canon with canon please. We don't have noncanon epistles of peter.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
Do you see that statement?
"You are saying a man can speak falsely of God, and make untrue prophecies and still be a true prophet."
Does that sound logical to you? Does it seem right that God's "prophets" should be able to go around spreading the horrible lie that God was Adam?
See the truth my friend. I know it is difficult because men have told you otherwise, but Brigham Young was a false prophet.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "Brigham Young was a false prophet" Okay, then the Human Young was a false prophet, but the prophet Brigham young is a true prophet. The true prophet statements can be found in official church doctrine. like if we were talking about 2 people in a sense. "Brigham young contradicted Brigham Young". Buddah, I never said he was an apostle, I just said that he received postions of truth. Like many people today receieve portions of truth, does not mean they know everything.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Okay, then the Human Young was a false prophet, but the prophet Brigham young is a true prophet."
God is telling you that he doesn't recognize 2 different people. He doesn't recognize 2 different functions of the same person. If you lie on God's behalf you are a false prophet and can NEVER BE TRUSTED AGAIN. YOU CANNOT BE A TRUE OR LEGITIMATE PROPHET AFTER THAT. What you are doing is using a double standard. "He's not a liar unless he's lying!" That logic is lunacy.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "God is telling you that he doesn't recognize 2 different people" Where does it say that Bible? and its not two different functions of the same person. The Human Brigham Young has is own functions, the prophet Brigham Young is like a instrument becuase God is speaking, its the function of God, not the function of the human Brigham Young.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt The issue is, that we have two different points of view, you have other eyes. You believe in Sola scritura, but I believe in modern revelation and scripture. Like I understand what you are saying, but you just have another point of view, which I understand, and I understand it becuase you don't have a testimony of the church, like I do. I know that Brigham Young was a prophet of God. Many people say they have found many contradictions, problems, and errrors, in the Bible.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"The issue is, that we have two different points of view, you have other eyes."
No, the issue is that you refuse to believe the Bible.
Do you realize that under your logic, a President of your Church could lie using God's name 99.9% of the time he opens his mouth, and yet-according to you- if he only issues an "official doctrine" concerning the remaining .1%, and that remaining .1% is truth, then HE IS A TRUE PROPHET?
That is absurd.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt (it dosent mater if the human Brigham Young spoke many times, he is not my God) In a sense this is my prophet, for doctrine " With divine inspiration, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles ( counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture, official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Which you won't disprove .
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Like I understand what you are saying, but you just have another point of view,"
And likewise, I see some Mormon doctrines and can respect them for being well reasoned (though I reject them for various reasons).
But your notion about Brigham being a prophet only when he is acting like a prophet is not one of those well reasoned issues we simply disagree upon. That concept is poorly reasoned. It's bad logic. It's an awful reasoning, and I hope you will see that.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I know that Brigham Young was a prophet of God."
To do this, you have to refuse the Bible.
The Bible says that it takes only ONE FALSE PROPHESY to become a false prophet. The Bible says that once a false prophet has spoken falsely, he must be shunned. The Bible says that anyone who speaks falsely of God NEVER HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Think about that. Young never had the Spirit, so how could he be a prophet?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "The Bible says that anyone who speaks falsely of God NEVER HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT" Where? But anyways, well of course is Brigham Young was mistaken about the Adam theory, he was not inspired, he just had chemical reactions in the brain. So the human brigham Young you dont have to lisen to, but the prophet brigham young who is inspired, again you find his statements in official church doctrine. Also, who feels the holy spirit, oness pentecostals or Trinitarians?
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian well of course IF Brigham Young was mistaken
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Also, Buddah received portions of truth. "
Did you not know that a little bit of lying destroys the entire truth?
ave you ever hear the phrase "the truth, the WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTING BUT THE TRUTH?" Don't you understand why that is so very important?
The scripture says "a little yeast works it way through the whole batch". This is true of ies, as well. If part of a ministry is a lie, the whole thing must be discarded.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "it takes is ONE false prophesy" I think its refering to charlatans, people who intentionally deceive you, people that do harm, children of hell, I don't think its talking about people who believe in stupid speculations, otherwise we would all be false prophets, every single human. Please Read my previous comments, I explain how we both have two different points of view. Like I said, you don't have to lisen to the Human Peter who denied Christ, but the Prophet Peter.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"it takes is ONE false prophesy" I think its refering to charlatans, people who intentionally deceive you,"
Why don't you see through this, brother? The scripture simply says to shun anyone who does not bring the right word. It does NOT differentiate, so either INTENTIONAL OR NOT...
so let's put this into practice: Did Brigham bring a true word of God when he said God was Adam?
If God is not Adam, then the Bible commands you to shun Young.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "then the Bible commands you to shun Young" I been telling you that you dont have to lisen to the HUMAN Brigham Young. Lisen to the prophet Brigham Young. He is an instrument, God used him. You find examples in LDS official Doctrine. Now let me see what my friends think, give me a moment. Let me see what they think of your claims. then I will respond to you again.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I been telling you that you dont have to lisen to the HUMAN Brigham Young."
This is getting ridiculous, sir. Young is a human. He is responsible for all his lies about God so long as he claims he has the Holy Spirit, is an apostle, is a prophet, or claims some priesthood or kingship/presidency.
You are watering down the meaning of "lie".
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
You didn't answer my questions from earlier. If Young wrote a Book called "SATAN IS GOD: THE UNOFFICIAL (BUT TRUE) WORD OF BRIGHAM YOUNG"
Let's pretend that the book is entirely devoted to the idea that Satan is actually God. Let's further pretend that Young has a forward where he claims that the book is 100% TRUE, but even still, it is not officially recognized by the LDS church.
Would you still say he is a true prophet of God?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt iF BRigham Young wrote a book called "SATAN IS GOD: THE UNOFFICIAL (BUT TRUE) WORD OF BRIGHAM YOUNG" He would NOT be sincere, and clearly a charlatan. HE would be intentionally lying. But he did not write such thing.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt
Let's further pretend that Young says in this book (SATAN IS GOD: THE UNOFFICIAL (BUT TRUE) WORD OF THE PROPHET BRIGHAM YOUNG) that God revealed all this to him as truth.
So there you go: Young writes a book claiming that God revealed to Young that He is actually Satan, but Young recognizes in the forward that the LDS church doesn't agree with this doctrine.
Is that enough to make Young a false prophet, and if yes, then how is that any different from what Young said of Adam?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I responded to you already, if he were to say that, he would not be sincere, he would have been playing games with the people. Hey would have been intentionllly lying, and he would be a children of Hell. But the Prophet, nor the human, Brigham Young ever said that. Brigham young Never said that. But as for Adam theory, its just something that he sincerly believed.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I responded to you already, if he were to say that, he would not be sincere,"
Assume he is being sincere. Please reanswer assuming that Young is sincere in his belief that God and Satan are the same.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Okay assuming that Brigham young did really mean about the Adam Theory as popularly understood. And assume he was sincere about what you just told me, well I dont know how one person can be sincere about that, but the Adam theory could easily fit the mentality of a Christian. But if he was sincere, he must have had Brain damage, he would have been to OLD, and guess what, that is okay also. Becuase he would be mentally ill. But NO brigham Young did not say such strong thing.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"he was sincere, he must have had Brain damage, he would have been to OLD,"
Young said this in the early-to-mid 1850s. Meaning he was only 50 when he started lying about God. He wasn't some old alzheimer patient. And he wasn't even ten years into his 30 year presidency. He continued claiming this doctrine was true for over 20 years until his death.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt ""But NO brigham Young did not say such strong thing." I AM talking about the claim about the Devil, not about the adam theory. But anyways, for the Adam theory how do you know that stamement was not a scribal error? Or how do you know it could not be interpreted another way?? maybe we will have clarification oneday, (like Bible scriptures that appear to be contradicting), or maybe he was just wrong, but it was the Human Brigham young, not the prophet.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"I AM talking about the claim about the Devil, not about the adam theory. "
Ah, so lying about God by saying God is Satan is clearly the work of a false prophet, but lying about God by saying he is Adam is NOT the work of a false prophet.
Care to explain why?
Any rational person would agree that there IS NO DIFFERENCE whether Yong falsely claimed Adam was God, or falsely claimed Satan was God. In BOTH SCENARIOS, Young is lying about God.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "Care to explain why?" can you explain to me the other old testament scriptures?? I already told you the difference, teaching that about the Devil, is clearly the work of someone Intentionally lying, and making fun the of the people. But Brigham young was sincere about the adam theory. and Like I said before, you dont have to lisen to the Human Brigham, lisen to the prophet Brigham, which statements are found in LDS doctrine.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"can you explain to me the other old testament scriptures?"
I explained some below. I listed the ones where I did not understand what your question was.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Okay I just send you a message explaining, but for the other ones, prophet Jeremiah said ((Jeremiah 34:4-5), but this appears to be a false prophesy to the critics. also, 2 Samuel 7:5-17, Yet this prophecy clearly did not prove successful if it is interpreted literally.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"(Jeremiah 34:4-5), but this appears to be a false prophesy to the critics. "
If they don't have a good understanding of eschatology, I'm sure it does. But the Prince of Tyre is the Antichrist, who claims to be god (Ez 28), The father of this Prince is the devil or "King of Tyre" "who was in the Garden of Eden" (Ez 28:13).
This prophecy will be fulfilled at the end of time, when the Antichrist (one of whose titles is the Prince of Tyre/ Ruler of Lebanon) is destroyed.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt
" Scripture with scripture."
Except that young said every word he preached could be taken as scripture... or is that just another moment where he is acting as a false prophet (but somehow is magically still a true prophet)?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "Except that [the human brigham] young said" anyways, of course, when he is acting like a prophet, everything he says its scripture. his tatements are found in the official Lds doctrine.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt
My friend, you are ridiculous. I say that out of love.
Here, you have a man lying to your face, telling you he is a prophet, telling you every sermon he gives should be considered as true as scripture, telling you God revealed this doctrine to him... AND YOU ARE STILL DEFENDING HIM.
Don't you know this man is insulting the One True God and misleading sheep? Young is like the antichrist or Annanias or Jezebel. All these say a true word of God and mix it with falseness.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Where is the evidence that "Annanias or Jezebel" were prophets? or that they at least once acted like prophets?? For Brigham Young there is evidence, its found in the official LDS doctrine. But the human Brigham young made errors, and its okay, he didnt commit the unforgivable sin, can't someone repent for errors? I say that out of love, BUT Richard Dawkins says that religious people, including us Christians, are ridiculous.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"2 Samuel 7:5-17, Yet this prophecy clearly did not prove successful if it is interpreted literally"
It is ESCHATOLOGICAL. Of course Jesus has not returned to Earth to rule over His Kingdom; this is what will happen when Christ returns.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt "It is ESCHATOLOGICAL" Ha it is interpretation, I wonder what the Jewish rabbies say?
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
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@TheSkepticChristian
"I already told you the difference, teaching that about the Devil, is clearly the work of someone Intentionally lying, and making fun the of the people. But Brigham young was sincere about the adam theory."
And I already told you that Muhammad was sincere in his belief that Christ was not the Son of God.
Sincerity has NOTHING to do with truth. You can spread a lie whether you know it is a lie or not.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"you dont have to lisen to the Human Brigham, lisen to the prophet Brigham, "
Young WAS PROPHESYING!
Any time you stand up among the people and claim to be a Prophet of God, you are prophesying!
According to you, Young was free to spread all the falsehood in the world so long as he sincerely believed it. That is EVIL, my friend. Don't spread that lie.
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt Supposibly, assuming no scribal errors, "Young WAS PROPHESYING!" It was the Human, not the prophet, like the scriputure in Deut. says "if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken" and the adam theory is not even a prophecy. you dont have to lisen to the human Brigham Young lisen to the Prophet Brigham Young, His statements are found in official LDS doctrine. "Young was free to spread " humans are not perfect.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian
"Supposibly, assuming no scribal errors, "
If you want to play that game, I can undermine the entire Book of Mormon. Who can say what is and is not a scribal error in your book, or any book for that matter?
You really think that FOR TWENTY YEARS Young taught this doctrine and for that entire 2 decade period people were misunderstanding Young and transcribing him wrongly?
niksilvourbolt 11 months ago
@niksilvourbolt I never said THAT everything recorded for the adam theory was a scribal error, but maybe some were scribal erros. Never said that all the statements were scribal errors. , The message of the Book of Mormon is perfect, and a good examples of scribal errrors are found in the Bible.
TheSkepticChristian 11 months ago