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From: mhcseattle
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  • truly, He knows who are His. God calls and elects His children, if anyone denies this they do not know God though they think they do. but we cannot ignore most of scripture, or explain it away to fit our own understanding(which most people unknowingly do).

    you are right, there is none good, no not one, none seek after God. this is the condition of natural man. but i can show you with scripture that we must SEEK Him and CHOOSE whom we will serve, and OBEY to the end. NOT by our ability but His.

  • John 17:6-19

    "I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them.(JESUS ONLY PRAYS FOR THOSE THE FATHER GIVES HIM I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me

  • And if we do not have free will, why does Paul write what he does in Romans 1:18 - 28. I believe the Arminian position is biblically sound, and believe in predestination, as outlined by St. Paul, not John Calvin. If am I am condemned as a heretic for holding that position, so be it. I know I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I know, I have chosen to follow him, and I know I have a right to be called, "a son of God." That is all that should matter.

  • So what do Calvinists say about about the Acts verse (2:21), "Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."? The same verse appears in Joel. I believe very strong if humankind was not given free will, then humankind has a valid reason to blame God for war, famine, poverty, illness etc: because the position of Calvinism, God imposes his will on to humanity, and humans don't have a choice. All Calvinism does is deflect the blame away from man, not God.

  • Mark Driscoll cusses all the time and talks about sex in his sermons.

  • @jbmanish where at?

  • @jackransell seriously? you must not watch much of driscoll? Everyone talks about it. they call him the potty mouth pastor.

  • @jbmanish i understand but you never answered my question. WHERE AT?

  • @jbmanish I have NEVER heard him curse in a sermon. And yes, he does speak about sex. So does the Bible.

  • But Driscoll, you're COMPLETELY inconsistent--if they've been PREDESTINED as one of the ELECT there's NOTHING Satan can do to alter their course-- even his own decisions have been Decreed by God, their Salvation/Damnation have already been Destined/Decreed by God for His good Pleasure-- whether they doubt and disbelieve or Believe & be glorified, God does either for His GOOD PLEASURE.

  • @desasterz "WHY do YOU believe in Jesus Christ?"

  • I wonder, if I go to hell, will I be able to praise God for what h'es done?

  • I love Jesus

  • When pondering about our free will and God's sovereignty, just keep saying this in your head: The glory of our salvation goes to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

  • Calvanism is wrong and it is a completely false doctrine. God gave us a choice to follow him or not. God Died for everyone on the cross NOT FOR JUST THE ELECT.

  • @IvIarkopolo7 Complete calvinism is wrong. I lean more towards calvinism than armenianism. One key thing to remember in pondering these things is that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and all glory of our salvation goes to God. We are saved because of what Jesus did, not what we do.

  • @PhillipS5428

    All 5 points of Calvinism stand or fall together--if you don't believe one(or more), then you've got issues. It'd be like having a car all together but no steering wheel for you to take away a point.

    Jesus is the author, but quote the whole verse and condition implied please-"to those who obey." There are many things you must "do" to inherit life, don't fool yourself-go read the rebukes to the 7 churches in Revelation--5 got torn apart because they weren't doing ENOUGH(or sin).

  • Search: Free Will - God style

  • Amen. Good teaching.

  • WOW- "in Christ" means to have the mind of Christ and becoming like him. Most would say they love Jesus but few follow him. You made it sound like it's all a mental state to love jesus and be in jesus. Paul said this gospel is not words but living in the power of God... Elect know they are born again

    so many things missunderstood

  • @ericplittlerock1 Why then was 1John written? "So you may know you are Saved." It was written to a group of people who had begun to doubt their Salvation because of the Enemy's attacks. So you can't say that the Elect ALL know they are Reborn becauase that would be going against the whole 1st Letter of John. Remember: if you point the finger of misunderstanding there's at least three pointing back at you, unless you pointed your whole hand, but then you'd look like a Nazi, and they did that.

  • @AelyxMaerlyn

    Actually 1 John was a response to Gnostic teachings/teachers coming in and distorting the true Christ(see the verses about anti-christs denying Jesus being in the flesh). The Gnostics lived in sin and claimed to know Christ because they were ELECT seeds--so John had to set that straight. They had also redefined sin, so John set that straight by saying it was transgression of the law. Unless your life looks like 1 John---you're not saved, that is implied in what he wrote.

  • If election is true then the Christian God is undoubtedly evil.

  • @airemillion90 Have you then done no wrong in your entire life? He has the right to do whatever He wants to do because He is God. The point of Election, AS I SEE IT (and I have a very finite mind), is that the sight which we do have, the understanding we do have, is because of His Grace and none of it is due to ourselves. I believe He died, offers Grace, to EVERYONE...Election as I see it says it's "By Grace that I accept Grace freely offered" vs "I freely deny the Grace freely offered"Help any?

  • @AelyxMaerlyn Oh yeah because he's more powerful then us right? That's like saying because the government is more powerful then you it has the right to do whatever it wants. And no what you said doesn't help at all. Calvinism says no man can turn to God, once God reveals himself to a person that person is powerless to resist. We are dead and a dead man can't choose to serve God, so God CHOOSES some to revive but most to burn in hell. Your god is evil.

  • Thank You Pastor, Great news :) :)

  • I like how this man delivers the message. I do think repentance is still important. We should confess our sins to Jesus everyday for the knowing and unknowing. I speak by example as doubt in my salvation has partly led me back into sin. So it's important to trust in God. I believe scripture says justification is a gift from God that loves us. It's all about trust.

  • You are lying to the people. Loving Jesus means to follow Him and do what He said to do--His commandments.

    He commanded baptism into His name!!

    Stop your made made salvation.

  • @wilby1414 Ahhh another "You must be baptised to go to heaven" The thief on the cross. The person on a death bed.

  • @tubefilmvideo The thief on the cross was saved under old testament law. There was no baptismal salvation until after the resurrection.

    Baptism into Jesus name does save you.

    Go to biblegateway c0m and keyword baptism into Jesus name.

    Baptism changes a person from death to life -- it is a regeneration, a conversion and being born again unto life. In Adam we all die BUT in Christ we are all made alive -- Christ in you is your hope of glory.

    Read Romans 6 -Paul clearly explains the process!

  • That's not satan, that's your subconscience. You KNOW you've sinned, so repent! Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil so that you would TURN from the Power of Satan to God that you may be sanctified by Faith in Him. Mark Driscolls telling you what your itching ears wanna hear-- God warned about these group of people in Ez.13:22b "And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins."

  • @apollos6640 This is what I got out of your message: Mark Driscoll is a horrible man because apparently he's telling people that if you are saved, you can continue your life of sin? I think you need to watch more of his videos because all I ever hear from him is to repent from your sin.

  • @SincerelyCady That's kinda what I'm hearin', too. He just uses strong language because people ignore us when we talk about something like rape with a smile on our faces. We should love them (Love thy enemy), and we should very truly YELL at them and get ANGRY with them when they do something like that, but not hold back forgiveness from them: for we once were in the position they were but are set free by Grace and have Christ as our Advocate. I yell at you bc I love u and want u to sin no more.

  • wow, its like this video was directed at ME. I was very concered, now i feel a little relief. I love jesus! Thx

  • right the devil made me do it lol. lets blame every thing on the imaginary satan.

  • @vampirehunter33 The smartest thing Satan has done is to make people believe that he does not exist.

    Read what happened to Job when Satan tormented him.

  • "you haven't trusted fully....you are unloved."....I hear these a lot.

  • Part II do you think I make save by self.? NO. God love me in frist place "Sovereign" and Jesus Christ dead on the cross and forgive my sin though he's blood Eph 1:7 and Col. 1:10. and but ( thougth Jesus Christ ) as my personal salvation peroid. and John 1:12 but as many as (Received him, to them gave he power to become the sons (children) of God, ever to them that believe on his name. clear!

  • Def think anyone struggling with this should watch the video i defaulted on my channel. Its not my video.

  • Someone told me I might not be part of the elect, I wish I born a bug,

  • @TheOkstate2012 Don't listen to that! If you know in your heart that you love Jesus, then you are His and no one can pluck you from His hand. Rejoice in that fact.

  • agnostic=elect? lol

    I don't hear accusations though. Satan has nothing on me ftw!

  • rom v 8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. rom v 8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.rom v 8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.rom v 8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

  • why don't you read all of rom 8,

    the promis

  • so good!! my fav preacher, check OUT OUR SERMON

  • Concerning our decision for salvation, God does not SUPERCEDE, God INTERCEDES, and we must CONCEDE.

    Romans 8 : 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

  • Jesus: "I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit... If a man remains not in me, HE IS CAST FORTH as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jn 15

    .

    "take heed unless he also spare not you. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE in his goodness: otherwise YOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF." Rom 9

  • A friend asks me 'wow what a way to look at life, calling men evil, how do you get by everyday?'

    I replied 'If you don't this, go to work everyday without locking your front door, hang a big sign out there that says 'front door NOT locked.' see what happens.'

    will they come in and clean my house or clean-out my house.

  • Mark speaks the truth. Christians who LOVE JESUS belong to JESUS. The world hates Christians. You can see how pagan this world is becoming. If you can see this, you are among the elect because you will know this world is EVIL.

  • I think what Mark is saying is Christians do sin and still do sin. Because Calvinists say that if you are an ELECT you will STOP SINNING and God will MAKE YOU STOP SINNING.

    He goes on to say and all this will cause us to cast doubt on our salvation. And Satan FEEDS on doubt. So what Mark is saying. Stop thinking about Calvinism or Armenism. Because as long as you accepted and love Jesus. U BELONG to Christ. You are saved even though no Christian, NOT one Christian is perfect.

  • @MrHawklan READ YOUR BIBLE

    Heb:12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    Heb:12:23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Heb:12:24: And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

  • ! WARNING !

    The Bible says saved Christians can become sinners and fall back into death:

    ! DECEPTION ALERT !

    "Brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

    (James 5:19)

    ! CAUTION !

    "Consider the goodness and severity of God... toward you goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE in his goodness. Otherwise YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF" !

    (Romans 11:22)

  • @cornwallsteve what's your point?

  • @wasdpol My point - people can become Christians, become sanctified by Christ, receive the Spirit of grace. But then live contrary to the Spirit, treat the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified a common thing, insult the Spirit of grace so their latter end becomes worse than before they had faith to salvation. But Mark Driscoll says you can't lose your salvation, and if you are elected, you cannot unelect yourself. The Bible describes shipwrecked faith, sin that leads to death etc.

  • @cornwallsteve if you are truly regenerate, you are"sealed" with the H.S. till the day of Christ. God doesn't undo what He initiates.

  • @lalastransmission - You just made that up - I am only quoting the Bible friend - the Bible says that Christians, those sanctified by the Holy Spirit, those with faith, can fall away, fall from grace, be led astray, backslide, turn from the holy commandment, be cut off the vine, which is Christ's body. This may be hard for you to receive, but the truth is often hard - trust the scripture friend, and cling to the Lord lest you be found outside of him on the day of judgment, crying Lord Lord...

  • @lalastransmission I agree that IF we remain in him, he will remain in us, and we will bear fruit. And he seals us and no man can remove us from him - but , ref. your claim that we cannot ourselves undo our salvation, make shipwreck of it, by turning our back on the Lord, or rejecting his sacrifice, or walking in sin that leads to death........

  • @Hotnuttt Don't even know how to respond to this one. So much scripture exhorts the believer to read God's word and to be a student. 2 Timothy 2:15 for one. Yes this opens the door for poor interpretation, but worth it to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us through His word every day!!

  • thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • im WORRIED... Im glad thats a good thing!

    3rd person accusations... "good point"

    Im accused of my sin daily...

    I constantly feel like i SUCK... Im tired of feeling this way...

    Tired...

  • @CastingStonez We all "SUCK" LoL But Christ came to save sinners (Those who "Suck" LOL)

    Soe when the enemy tells you that you are not good enough, tell him that Christ JESUS came to save those who are not "Good enough". Infact, because I am not "Good enough" I am very well qualified to be saved!" :D

    Be blessed.

  • @Descipleofchrist101

    Thanks for the edification and love...

    Its about time people start uplifting each other on YT instead of degrading and tearing them down...

    God bless you my friend...

    love

  • Heaven or Hell is not decided by your choice of Calvinism or ARMINIANISM. It is decided by your choice of choosing Jesus or rejecting him. If the two perspectives have nothing to do with Salvation then why bring it up at all? Please stick to the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. It is sufficient! Please!

  • @pastorfrankrodgers....we are to grow in our grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. The more we learn about God and the Bible the more deeper our love for Him and our worship. How can we worship in Spirit and Truth when we have a faulty understanding of God...we worship God as Trinity because we understand He is a Trinity, we can't pick and choose what we want to believe in the Bible. The Bible is VERY clear God saves apart from man, this has been labeled "Calvinism"...simply Jesus saves.

  • @810suited Are you saying we don't have a choice to be saved? If so why did Eve disobey in the garden of Eden? Is it because she had a choice? Predestination is biblical but God predestined all to be saved. We are the ones just like Eve did in the garden choose to reject his gift of salvation. Read through John 3:16 slowly and circle the word believe. Do you not have a choice in what you believe? God Bless you!!!

  • @pastorfrankrodgers your telling me as a pastor, you only discuss salvation issues. The bible covers more than just salvation issues. These are important truths of God. What happened to truth matters?

  • @810suited Not sure what you are talking about? Truth matters completely. It is the reason Jesus came into the world. To bear testimony to the truth. Thank you for your wonderful in sites and may God Bless you!

  • @pastorfrankrodgers if it's in the Bible, then it is worth bringing up. . .

  • @CharityAileen I agree with you. But it is a bad interpretation of scripture to say it is in the bible. If you could please provide me the scriptures so I could see what it is you are looking at. Remember God chooses all to be saved! Pre-destination is true but a more complete understanding is required. He predestined all to be saved but he also gave us free will. Evidence is found in Genesis chapter 3 when Eve chose to go against God's wishes. Thank you for your thoughts and God Bless!

  • @pastorfrankrodgers you can't chose Jesus or reject him.. you don't have that kind of power.. learn your bible..

  • @bebopblues Then I guess Jesus is lying or kidding in John 3:16 when he said whoever believes in him has eternal life? Brother please be careful with your choice of words, there are non believers who read these posts and it is not a good example for them to read negative comments. By our love will they know the true disciples of Jesus! God Bless you!

  • @bebopblues whoso ever calls on the name of the Lord you shall be saved, that sounds like you need to choose Jesus , if you belive that is a action you need to recieve Jesus to be saved if your not you are condemned already that is bible , calvinist are decieved they have a wrong doctrine

  • what merit then is there in being one of His children? what kind of hopeless gospel are you preaching? yes, faith is a GIFT. but if God desires all to be saved, why then do any perish?

    God never said man has a "free will". He also never said you have no choice.

    He DID say this;

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    (Deuteronomy 30:19)

  • @TheRoadIsNarrow

    So, my question is, why do some people choose God and others don't?

  • @nwpspwns

    i don't think i understand your question.

    can you be a little more clear about what your asking.

  • @TheRoadIsNarrow I was just wondering why you think it is that some people place their faith in Christ and others don't. The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and it is a gift from God. However, the very fact that you think you are saved because you had the innate ability to choose God on your own would be a work. There is nothing in us that desires God so the very fact that some choose God and others don't is because the choice itself is from God.

  • @bebopblues you might need to read his comment better friends. we do have to power to believe in Jesus or reject him. and our choice depends on where our enternity will be spent. Either with God and Jesus in all their glory in the Kingdom of Heaven or be cast into the Lake of Fire. The King James Version is truly the word of God of salvation can only be reached through Jesus the Christ.

  • @pastorfrankrodgers I understand your heart here, I really do. But, the Bible tells us to watch our doctrine, be sure that we have sound teaching according with scriptures and these are extremely important issues, that apply to your view of the gospel, the atonement, justification, sanctification, and more. We need to understand and study these things, but not be divided by them. Anyway, thanks for your comment, and again, I understand your heart and appreciate it.

  • @pastorfrankrodgers I am curious as to how one chooses Jesus in regards to salvation.

    As you know, even the devils believe and they are not saved.

    I await your response.

    Then I will tell you how to be saved according to scripture.

    I hate made made ways to be saved.

    Please respond.

  • @pastorfrankrodgers

    when u say u have to choose or reject jesus, thats an arminian viewpoint. Making u an arminian. And Calvinism and Arminianism have everything to do with salvation, they offer explanations of how it works and how the bible explains it.

  • @pastorfrankrodgers The Gospel is simple and complex at once. It is simple in that we should have CONFIDENT, TRUSTING, LOVING, FAITH in our Daddy, God (the Father.) That's having the heart of a child. However it is complex in that there are MANY, MANY things we cannot understand because of our limited minds: because we are not God. That is where CHILDLIKE FAITH comes in. Way I see Election, its "By Grace I accept the Grace freely offered to me" vs "I freely deny the Grace freely offered to me"

  • @AelyxMaerlyn Hello, I don't believe there are many many things in the bible we are not meant to understand. That would make God a confusing God, not a God of design and order. I believe we do not understand many things in the bible because we tend to try and make them say what they do not say. We make difficult what God made easy. It is awesome to have these discussions as long as we don't get upset over different view points. Thank you for your thoughts and kind words! God Bless!

  • @pastorfrankrodgers I see but I let me just make this point: of course the gospel is everything.Theology and growing in it is extremely important.Election is such an amazing and beautiful concept and so crucial in understanding our true nature and how great God's grace and salvation really is towards us.

  • @pastorfrankrodgers Ha! you say don't bring up Calvinism or Arminianism, and then say "It is DECIDED BY YOUR CHOICE of choosing Jesus or rejecting him." A blatantly Arminian statement. Maybe you should take your own advise,"Please stick to the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. It is sufficient! Please!"

  • @pastorfrankrodgers It's true, arminians can be saved. But calvinism is true because otherwise we would ahve done anything for our salvation. And it helps to strengthen our faith and it gives us a lot more joy.

  • Please don't elevate "church" over the head Christ Jesus. God gives authority by the Holy Spirit. If everyone actually learned about Jesus and loves him we would spend less time judging who is right and wrong. A creed should not be above scripture either.

  • Just because you, by your own choice, question your election cannot mean that God has indeed sovereignly elected you. Sure, maybe this is not always the case, but why waste 4 minutes and 9 minutes explaining it this way?

  • Thats what she said

  • Driscoll is bad. he is known as the cussing pastor who compromises godliness for culture, DESPITE what he says.

    John MacArthur & other apologists exposed him at Shepherd's Conference. don't favorite or recommend because he encourages compromise.

  • ahhh more doctrines of men.

  • I think there is something to Both. Arminianists are like those clothed in a MuMu. Calvanists in WetSuits. They're both devoted to the ocean but get an Arminian in the ocean and the Mumu gets whipped off. Put the Calvinist in the water and he doesn't get to enjoy the ocean on his skin. There has to be somewhere in the middle where God's Law and God's Mercy and Grace meet. I agree with points on both sides, I just don't know how yet. My heart is saying neither side is 100%. I just don't know why.

  • because you are right. Neither side should be a banner to congregate under.  You know we have free will, you know God is sovereign.

  • @earthygreen You make a great point. Just rest in the fact that God is sovereign and at the same time He can give man a choice. Both sides have to try and explain by human understanding. Paul in Romans 11 concludes with this, "Oh the depths of His wisdom and knowledge..." Just be a Calvarminian like me. God will settle this in your heart. It is a balance of both sides and we must trust God that it is both because that is what scripture supports. God bless!

  • @woelfl22 what an incredible blessing that was for me. Thank you for your response. I do my best to be a faithful follower but when people ask hard hitting questions, I struggle with what I ought to tell them is most certainly the absolute, down-the-line meaning of God's Word. I'm beginning to realize that "Lean not unto your own understanding..." isn't just meant for the miraculous and UNIVERSE-sized questions.

  • Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" Whosover that believes that only some are predestined, please, address if Mark 9:45 is directed towards the predestined of your view or the people that are not predestined in your view, or both.

  • "there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ", but how does one know if they are in Christ. Jesus said MANY will come to Him on that day saying Lord, Lord, and He will say depart from me i never knew you, you who work iniquity." But isnt that everyone because we all sin?

  • Those people didn't say Lord, didn't we seek you and serve you, they said 'didn't we do'... this/that work etc. They didn't even make the claim to know Jesus or to attempt to know Him, which is the will of the Father. They listed their works and Jesus tells them clearly "I never knew you".

  • It's unfortunate that Driscoll is confused

  • @rayh3777

    how so?

  • dude satan is so much cooler then god. satan has sex drugs and rock and roll. god has church. you decide where you want to spend eternity church or the acdc concert.

  • @matthewkeri12345

    unfortunately, hell doesn't include sex drugs and rock and roll. and satan doesn't have those things, and he doesn't offer them to us because he wants us to have fun. he offers them to us because he hates us and wants to distract us from what is truly good -- God. and it's not about church, it's about living life to the full. sex, drugs and rock and roll are lame compared to living out a love affair with the God of the universe.

  • @matthewkeri12345 Aren't you presumptuous dude? There are many believers who do not attend church because we know centuries of corrupt beliefs are passed down institutionally. In following the principles of Life found in the perfect Word of God (KJV 1611) perfect love, peace, and joy are experienced such as no man ever imagined. I lived the nightclub drinking drug life and traded it in for the spiritual path you speak against without knowing what it is. You are dead wrong....

  • But some people, according to Calvin, can be given some mild drawing from God, and may seem to desire their salvation, but aren't irresistably drawn..

    This makes it very hard for a Calvinist to be sure they are elect, since God has a revealed and a secret will, and could in a sense trick a person with his revealed will but has never elected a person.

  • "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

    ~ Mahatma Gandhi

    So Gandhi was elect after all.

  • help the church father.

  • This is another way to see the image of God in man...

    All man has posited a very marvelous mediation of an enchained freedom...

  • Intrinsically, human volition propounds its identity toward an individualistic state, yet it is mechanistically fulfilling the freedom of its origin. Theindwelling sense of freedom spawns from the intercalation of a Creator/Creation structure, which is a kind of exteriorized coalesce, another paradox. An accentuated homogeneity that impresses the nature of God upon mans spirit and this procures reciprocity to the subjective mentality of mans dogmatic contradiction. (Freewill and Sovereignty)

  • Man is enchained to the absolute freedom (God), it is the criminality of sin that is evoked through the abuse of that freedom to counter it with the enslavement of anything else and this is idolatry. The wings of freedom have allusively adorned man through the determinism of freedom itself. For if we really are the thoughts of God, and if Gods abode lies in the quintessential reality of liberty, then we partake of our origin through Gods gift of particular spirithood to Man.

  • Good one may blessings!!!!!!

  • That is correct,if a man searches for Christ it is because God is calling him to salvation.Dead men don't search for anyone.

  • But dead men don't sin either.

  • We are dead 'IN SIN",in other words we can do nothing but sin,we are slaves to sin in the flesh.

  • she shouls sleep like a calvinist.that is great.

  • Israel is a nation full of people though. I don't see where we're disagreeing. If the Bible says God hardens Israel, it is referring to the people of Israel.

    In Romans 11 it says "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not down to this very day."

    If God hardens someone's heart and doesn't allow them to see or hear, then aren't they destined for hell?

  • Isn't great that we have people in this world who can tell everyone else exaxctly who God has elected and make it know that they aren't and there's nothing that they can do about it? What's the point of this even if God's predetermined election were true? I believe we are predestined (not predetermined) to be in the likeness of Jesus through faith and if we do not abide in God's will, then we are punished by separation from God for eternity; wrath and love in tandum.

  • So you have to earn your salvation by doing the will of God? Sounds like a works-based gospel.

    The whole reason Jesus came was because we COULDN'T do the will of God.

    I don't know, maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say

  • What other way is there to receive salvation except by doing the will of God? But doing the will of God is not "earning" your salvation. I see it like this:

    The sacrifice of Jesus paid the price for our salvation (a gift to Man). Therefore, there's no way that we can earn God's salvation; it's a gift. My point is that a gift is something that can be accepted or rejected, not earned. Salvation is still dependent on God's revelation to Man but the response is Man's choice.

  • i agree, i will go on to add that those who choose life are elect before the foundation of the world. for God foreknew what they would choose and are therefore His elect. if we chose to reject Him, we are predestined to Hell. God is sovereign over all things, and in His sovereignty He has given us a choice to choose.

  • one could also say that the act of believing is a work

  • Zitan17, you have misunderstood what I believe. I do not believe that we are predetermined to choose life or death. I believe that within God's sovereignty He has given Man the ability to choose (predestined vs predetermined). In other words, I do not accept the ideas of unconditional election, limited atonement, or irresistible grace.

  • limited atonement no, and irresistible grace no. the only condition for election is to believe and turn to God. but i think that He knows that you will before you are born, but still leaves the choice up to you. i also think that if you run from God, He will come and get you. when i ran and served my own lusts, He was right there with me. He allowed me to destroy my life, and showed me why "my" path was heading to destruction. looking back i can see the hand of God in my life,drawing me back

  • So what do you guys do with verses like Romans 9:10-24. Actually just read all of Romans 9.

  • the bible says that we are both elect before the foundation of the world and we are also given choices.

    for Romans 9, Paul is talking about Israel.

  • He's not talking about Israel when he says

    "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    "Whomever" sounds more like each individual rather than a nation.

  • in context the passage its self is talking about Israel. taken alone with out the prior and following verses it can be used for double predestination,  i assume you are trying to say that God has predestined some to hell. the bible does not support that. but it does support election.

  • zitan17: But does not the doctrine of election mean precisely that those who are NOT elect ARE predestined for hell (double-predestination)? Doesn't Calvinism teach that some are predestined for Heaven (the Elect) and some are predestined for Hell (the non-elect)?

  • limited atonement and double predestination, so yes those are part of Calvinism. the bible does not teach limited atonement, as far as double predestination, only in Romans 9 and this passage can speak of Israel or people in general. but the problem here is Romans 11. for both sides of this debate, i would stress that they avoid limiting God and confining Him to time and space.

  • you're right... Paul himself sums up his whole argument in Romans 11, not keeping the emphasis on "unconditional election" as they read it in Romans 9, but declaring what he meant by his whole argument from Romans 7 to 11... that is, that "God has bound ALL men over to disobedience, so that He MAY HAVE MERCY on them ALL... (and then as you know it expounds on God's wisdom and mercy and unknowable ways...)

  • also Paul gives us the way of grace: Romans 4-- "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."

    This says that it is exactly by FAITH, that the whole thing might be by grace... not as they would say, unconditional election...

  • Only those who are the Elect can turn to Jesus.

  • true, and only those who turn to Jesus will be called His elect

  • amen!

    John 6:40 --"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

  • This is Brain washing

    '''Mind Control Cults" on you tube.

  • no, this is the gospel

  • Comment removed

  • Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

  • Exactly, thats my point

  • wow I mean Pelagius....forgive my spelling mistakes

  • Calvinism is no excuse for disobedience. I am not concerned with either doctrine but you wonder why cults and idols are thriving in the western world. This happened to israel when they were disobedient to God. We discuss doctrine and mental understandings while the lost are perishing throughout the world. What kind of sacrifices do we make to God? More like what kind of excuses.

  • no, Jesus said, "IF you love me, YOU will KEEP my commandments"... When Jesus prayed that the Father would "keep them", he was praying that He would "keep them from the Evil one", that doesn't mean that they couldn't have been disobedient. Judas was Saved in Matthew 10, Satan cannot cast out Satan, yet he was acknowledged as "one of the 12 disciples" and Jesus "gave them (all 12) authority over unclean spirits, to CAST THEM OUT, and to heal every disease and every affliction."

  • well according to Calvinism you cant lose your salvation...

    so even if the devil is accusing her and lying to her trying to get her away.

    why worry? she i supposedly "secure"

    Mark Driscoll is contradicting his whole theological belief.

  • You can't lose your salvation once you've realized that faith in Christ is the only thing that can save you. There's nothing you can do to earn it, so there's nothing you can do to lose it.

    Why worry? You don't have to worry about losing your salvation, but Satan can still keep you from experiencing the freedom and joy that God wants us to experience through his salvation.

  • then why does the bible talk about people falling away and turning on god in the end-times?

  • I think I know what verses you're referring to. The one that says in the last days there will be a departing from the faith. Meaning that people will turn away from the church and follow false gospels. It doesn't mean that true believers will turn away from God.

    Faith in God was given to you by God. He gave you the ability to believe and will complete the good work He started in you (Philippians 1:6)

    You can't end what you didn't start

  • can you lose faith?

  • and if you do try to run away from God He will come and break your legs like a good shepherd. i will say that some people are not genuinely converted, that is to say while they profess Christ, He means nothing to them and there is no belief in their hearts.

  • lol

  • lol your friends must love you since you such a positive person to have around hahaha

  • I think you should read Ephesians 4:29, Peter 3:10 and James 3:9-12.

  • Only God knows if you will persevere.

    You don't know.

    Not even Paul knew:

    Phil 3

    10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

  • Id have to say,there is noo possible way that God doesnt know fully all things,always have. Yes, God knows the end from the begining. ALL THINGS!! That is the God of the Bible

  • i used to be a calvinist so i disagree with you about why im not a calvinist anymore the more i read the bible i believe its a book of love and God doing what he can for his creation ya know for God so loved the world and not how he could flex his sovereign muscles

    calvinism portrays a vision of God that his biggest attribute is sovereignty

    open theism presents Gods biggest attribute is love and i think thats how the bible portrays him