Cardinal Newman' legacy shared by Catholics and Anglicans a

[maxnll]

Facist.

[CobinRain]

Two years ago Cardinal Newman's body was dug up as part of the investigations into his candidacy for sainthood.

I never heard the outcome. DId they find anything? A bone? Or even a few pieces of skin?

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain They found.....nothing.Neither anything of him, nor anything of his lover with whom he requested to be buried.

How convenient! We could not possibly allow any tinge of scandal near Opus Dei's pet saint.

...of course corpses can be obliterated via the use of certain acids. Leaving not even a trace of the bones, as with Newman.

[CobinRain]

@19lfm12 Good comment, you cynic, you! I feel sure that both saint newman and lesser saint ambrose have been taken up into heaven through holy assumption. And holy assumptions are as catholic as a rosary.

More serious point. Archaeologists would have found traces, believe me, in a proper excavation. Problem would be finding an archaeologist loopy enough to do it.

Do you remember when they were carting around the bones of St Therese of Lisieux all over the world so one could kiss them?

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain It is prolly just as well that no remains of Newman were found, or indeed they would be carting them around. Ppl would be engaging in virtual Santeria or Voodoo with them.....

Agreed: if REAL archeologists were there, they would have found some trace of him.

Assumption= translation into the alternate universe of Eternity with body & soul intact. Death = normal body/soul separation when life functions cease.

[CobinRain]

@19lfm12 Thanks for clarifying Assumption! Actually I suspect that like me you had the "benefit" of a few years in Catholic school altho you clearly paid more attention than I did! For me those years marked my transition from choir boy to sex maniac, hence lack of attention to learned discourse. But now I remember. The "Assumption" of the BVM (pbuh)..oh, sorry wrong religion. I wonder if at the feast of the circumcision that part of the divine anatomy was assumed into heaven. Answers please...

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain I think the point of the Feast of the Circumcision is that Jesus grew up as Jewish boy & followed the social & religious customs of 1st century Jew.

If you can see Time & Eternity as two parallel universes, then the construct of 'assumption 'is easier to grasp. Interdimensional transition. Moses, Elijah & Ezekiel are also known to have been 'assumed'.

Think of it in Trekkie terms; not of Baroque paintings.

[CobinRain]

@19lfm12 I can do trekkie. And(judging by your comment on the circumcision) I wonder if you have not been reading Geza Vermes "Jesus the Jew" ? Wildly scholarly effort(Vermes is Professor of Jewish Studies at Oxford) with a heavy payload. Have a read--easy to find on Amazon. Vermes's great strength is both is scholarship(he reads Latin, koine greek and aramaic and presents v good textual criticism. Including convincing arguments that Mathew Mark Luke and John are NOT written by those disciples.

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain Spiritually, the only point of the circumcision is that Jesus subjected himself to the Law, like any other man.

Have not read that. The Gospels were NOT originally written in Greek; that came later. John wrote his own; the others are likely 'according to...', i,e, scribal in nature. The Gospel of Thomas, originally in Syriac, was brought to Egypt by Mark in c.40AD. The many Gospels would have been primary written in Hebrew/Aramaic, then scribed into other langauges soon after.

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain There have always been a certain percentage of gay clergy. One problem is taking sexually & emotionally immature late adolescents & placing them in the all-male environment of the seminary. If starting in a junior seminary, as young as 13. No understanding or experience relating to women, or of ANY mature relationship.

How can one expect such men to be sexually mature? They cannot, as they do not understand themselves nor know how to have a relationship with another as an EQUAL.

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain The last thing they need is to find a dead gay Cardinal & his significant other lovingly buried together. So they HAD to do 'something', regardless of precisely 'what'.

The funny thing to me was - for all the spin about the lack of remains, his grave marker indicates that both he & Ambrose are both in that plot:)

[CobinRain]

@19lfm12 Yes, Newman and his soul mate. Seems sad to me that they dug them up if I am serious. If they were real believers they were expecting to meet up again at the end of the world and be together.

I think gay clergy have always been the order of the day. A good friend who was a Dominican novice for a few years(and by no means a homophobe) told me he thought about 50% of his fellow novices were openly gay in a jokey sort of way--called each other alice & Bev and things and minced a bit.

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain My point is NOT that Newman was 'bad' just because he was gay. Of itself, that is irrelevant. And it is far better for one to have a soul mate then to be searching for endless hook-ups.

The point is: the hypocrisy. Newman took a vow of celibacy, yet has the overt appearance of breaking it. And the Church is now pretending as if this part of his life did not exist. This is wrong on many levels.

From like sources, I would say the 50% figure is accurate.

[19lfm12]

@CobinRain To complete my point: how can any man (str8 or gay) be a spiritual leader & counselor to others, if he has never had a normal, adult relationship with another human being - as an EQUAL? This is critical. Clergy culture is all dominant/submissive; there is no genuine equality. If a young man is schooled exclusively in this mode.....barring a lot of divine help.....he will never be able to deal with lay ppl as normal human beings.

[wigan77]

He started off in the evangelical wing, as did many of the early members of the Oxford Movement, but was a convinced Tractarian by the time of his conversion to Rome in 1845.

[IAMJESUSmovie]

Jesus Christ has returned. I AM.

[Uakti222]

Poor Anglican Church - more and more a (weak) branch of the Roman Catholic Church...

Poor Roman Catholic Church - still believing it has the holy badges to honor the saints...

[DukeOfLochNess]

@Uakti222 When Jesus said this is my body this is my blood he didn't mean it metaphorically!

[TJJ5621]

The Church of Rome is not the true Church of Christ. The Roman Catholic Church does not hold a monopoly on Christian belief - and its not getting me.

[Uakti222]

None has this monopoly. Not even the anglicans - catholics or evangelicals...

[palaeologos]

The blessed Cardinal was not a member of the evangelical wing of the Anglican Church, but of the Anglo-Catholic wing. Big difference.

[dacatholicbandorgan]

Already 400,000 Anglicans are on their way back to Rome. I pray that Neman's beautification will open the door for them and may lead all the rest of them to the true Church of Christ.

[Uakti222]

Excuse me, but Christ did not found a church.

So, which is the true "Church of Christ"?

[dacatholicbandorgan]

Christ did found a Church. He Founded the Roman Catholic Church. Where did the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Church come from? The Roman Catholic Church. Where did the Anglicans and Proestants come from? That same Roman Catholic Church.

Even Christ himself gave St. Peter the Keys.

[Uakti222]

I´m sorry, but the Eastern/Oriental Church you mentioned existed before the Roman Church...

[dacatholicbandorgan]

We where one Church. The Main body of that Church today is the Roman Catholic Church.

[Uakti222]

Of course, all are once one church. And the more important today is the Roman Catholic, I agree. But, you know, who deserted was the bishop of Rome, not the 3 others eastern bishops...But it´s past.Today christianity is spread all over the world not because of the pope or someone else. But of 'logos' of God that is expressed in many ways. If you not impressed at least 4 or 5 times a day for what the holy spirit does within christianity, regardless of denomination, you´re weak of faith.

[DukeOfLochNess]

@Uakti222 Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the apostle john. And he was the first person to use the word (catholic church) in wrighting, and he wrote about it in A.D 110.