It's funny how both top comments are made by a Swedish communist with whom I've had to debate several times. Incidentally, he also left a comment on my channel - which I subsequently deleted - where he told me he wished I'd get raped for my political ideology. Oh well. Communism at its finest, eh?
You know what, Instead of telling Liberals they are confused and wrong. I'll just let time pass and let people watch what happens when Liberals run countries.
@ignbtd well thats not factually true. I wasnt that man was re-modelled, he rediscovered himself
wage labour makes man forget himself, his talents and his relationship with his specie.. Karl Marx also wanted capitalism to work so it could destroy itself. He was against welfare from the state because he thought it was a way in which the government controlled the poor.
@ignbtd Well that's another weak arguement. Can you please give your definition of communism because if its that government forces people to spread the wealth then your complely wrong. Your saying that Hotel Baun don't labour labour organizers. Well that's because they don't exist thats the point. A painter can run his own business and can be a good business man. In Scotland anyway a good trades man can make as much as a lawyer on some occasions.
@ignbtd well that is a very weak argument because it is based on the assumption that everyone who isn't a owner in the sweet shop is an idiot. Which is absolute crap because there are people with PHD's who work in sweet shops .
There is proof that you don't need CEO's. i mean can you run a big company without workers. Well the answer is no. Can run a company without a CEO , the answer is yes. As long as workers have a mutual understanding ,the workers can run the company together.
@ignbtd well why do companies need employers? why not just employees? Like in hotel bauen. Google it. Also Bologna has 8,000 cooperatives which is three times more than New york and it is one the richest cities in Italy. It also a good university to boot.
@ignbtd well why cant it be $24 an hour instead for everyone or whatever the company makes is share between the workers. I mean how can you say that capitalism doesn't exploit people. The slave trade existed in a capitalist system.
@ignbtd Where has capitalism worked without a government??? Because socialism and workers management has worked without a government. On sweatshops, I can't believe how stupid you are. You must think that fuedalism was also humane because people who feared hunger and poverty forced their kids to work in that society as well. Maybe you can't see people as animals with DNA and psychology, just tools for your money making schemes, that's a failure of you however of you as a human and a man.
@ignbtd well thats only if you believe that communism can only exist under government control. I mean it is not like capitalism has no help from the state.
why did capitalism create nation states if it is anti-statist?
@Xjarq well communism didn't really exist under Stalin because he was a dictator. Communism is a system or theory of social organisation based on the holding of property in common. Stalin controlled everything so it was the complete opposite.
@Xjarq No need to be rude, I'm just trying to have a debate.
Well like i said again dictators exploit people not communism. China is becoming the new super power so be happy to visit China.
If you think Cuba is in a bad state you should have seen the stats before Castro took over. The poverty rate was much worse than it is now. This was when the Americans were in charge of Cuba. Castro used to be about spreading the wealth and freeing people from America.
Listen, since you were immune to any East European issues, I've given the contemporary examples of a communist country, which situation seems to be OK, in your opinion.
I live in Poland, now let me tell you how life was back THEN (till 1990):
- you could buy a car only if you had a special "card" which allowed you to do so.
- the same applied to a flat,
- or even meat.
Technically it was impossible to start your own business, apart from buying a tractor (card needed) and...
@Xjarq why is capitalism not about exploiting people when a person works in a sweatshop and gets paid $5 for something that sells at $50 each time. (ie: sportswear) You do know businesses just need workers not managers and owners? Study language, history, psychology, sociology and you will see how creative people are in groups, intelligence existed before capitalism. Also consider this, the people took down the soviet union, what a beautiful socialist moment of social solidarity.
I don't know what kind of mental obstacle you, people in the West, have with understanding what communism/socialism IN REAL LIFE, NOT BOOKS is about.
AISI, it's a matter of living through it, if your brain isn't developed enough to imagine/believe in it, that is.
Look at all East European countries (read two of my last comments, please). Those were real communist states, and tell me, why those countries are less developed than the US?
@Xjarq and as we keep telling you that was not proper communism in Eastern Europe. It was marketed as socialism and communism but it wasn't it was Stalinism. America has one of the highest murder rates and it is behind many in healthcare.
@Xjarq do you mean after the Soviet union? or after Stalin because if your next point is that after Stalinism there was communism then that is not a good arguement. It was based on the same principles as Stalinism with Nikita Khrushchev. If you look at Karl Marx's theory of communism you see that they difer from what Stalin represented. Mate don't get me wrong here I'm not trying to be dick . I'm just saying capitalism isn't as fair as you think it is . Its not a black or white issue.
But, what you two are saying is based only on theoretical assumptions. Yes, socialism/communism, in theory, is different from what was is Eastern Europe from 1945-1990. You're talking about theory and I'm describing communism the way it was, let's say, arranged in real life. I don't think there's any other model of communism in the world besides the one that was presented by the Soviet Union in E. Europe.
@Xjarq well Sweden and France are Socialist countries. Although socialism is where profits are shared equally in the community .
They have some the best healthcare system in the world. In Argentina there are companies which use the socialist model where wealth is actually destributed equally amongest them and it works. The two biggest football clubs in Europe if not the world Barcelona and Real Madrid are socialist .
democracy cannot exist whilst there is capitalism. and by democracy, i'm not talking about the odd vote now and again for the same puppets to big business and other elites. i'm talking about people being empowered, and socialism allows for that by giving workers control over the means of production.
You End the War in iraq! Well he hasn't done that! Money needs to be distributed to the poor? Isnt Michael Moore worth between $25-50 Million! Why isn't he distributing his wealth?
Yeah, of course I agree that socialism is terrible for Americans because American socialism = socialism for the rich. So, that's why! If we had true capitalism in this third world industrialized country, then the middle class would not decline and the poorer would not become poorer.
Socialism is the cry you hear from greedy pricks who want to keep phucking their fellow citizens over so they can TRY to appease their overwhelming greed tendencies.
The best is the crying about M. Moore, "OMG HE'S RICH!" yeah, that's what happens when you make movies. You make gobs and gobs of money, just ask James Cameron.
people who work hard deserve the fruits of their labour??i worked for DHL for 10 years.i worked bank holidays and christmas's .what thank's did i get??6 pay cuts in a year,the money i was making was going back in to going to work,i could'nt meet my household biils.i worked 18 hour's a day,i still could'nt make money.then i discover management had recieved bonuses for making the cut's.i was sacked for voiceing my opinion.is that a fair and just system to you?or are you the one who sacked me?
Yeah, Moore, keep on directing your Fiction, and making Millions on Fradulent movies. Here is an idea, if rich people should give up their money, how about you start.
@Arkayam He does his movies online because Nobody really likes his work anymore. Before people realised he was full of shit, he got LOADS of money, and is currently a multi Millionare.
@usam1981 what an ignoramus statement, grow up, face life yourself and ALL the shit that happens than cry back to me about how Socialistic ideas arre better. Capitalism is for the rich, promoted by rich, and work only for the rich! This leaves a SMALL window of oppurtunity for other people LIKE YOU AND ME
@Arkayam And Socalism is for the Foolish, and the small minded, which tells me everything I need to know about you. Capatilism has made this country what it is today, and Socalism has destroyed every country that has tried it.
@usam1981 Haha funny, because with the debt the US has, i wouldn't say you are successful. Maybe the rich is successful, but the average people is paying the consequences. Research how china owns your ass right now. Start studying Chinese language, you are gonna need it.
@memohavok Yeah, well, guess who's fault that is, it sure as hell is not Bush's fault. People like this idiot, who think that the rich should pay more than they currently do are in the blame, because the Rich are the ones who are creating the jobs. Hurt them, hurt the economy further.
@usam1981 Thats very stupid to say. That is called corporate facism. Things are better with many small companies around. But, hey, the big corporations are creating the jobs? Thats right, jobs in india, china, mexico, vietnam, hong kong. While their CEOS are swimming in money in the US.
@memohavok And do you want to know why they go over seas, TAXES, everyone of them has the same reason. Do you think that raising taxes on them will keep them here, or cause them to take more over seas. The higher the taxes, the worse things will get. That is where you Libs fail.
@usam1981 No, corporations went overseas because American workers have been too successful. I.e. they have won too many rights. It's much easier to suck on the labor of a 16-21 year old Chinese girl than to worry about all the legal victories of the American worker. You act like it is the responsibility of the American people to make the ruling economic elite (who has profited immensely from all this) happy. You are a cowardly piece of dog shit, and a shill for the business community.
@usam1981 Fuck you, fuck the rich and fuck George W. Bush. Fuck the Democrats too for that matter, for betraying the working class. The rich are not creating jobs, they are investing their money in private submarines. They not only hurt the economy; they hurt the polity. When the rich get in the way of the polity, it is necessary for a functioning democratic society to sweep the rich away. And how can you help? By learning how to fuck off indefinitely.
@agapeiron "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by dictatorship."
You do realize that neither the country or the economy can function without the rich, right?
It used to be that if you didn't work hard then you'd die or get help from a charity, not ride on the backs of good people and demand money from the government because for some twisted reason you believe you are entitled to someone else's money. I'd be more than happy to give money to charities rather than the government telling me how much of my money I should be giving up.
@judofighter10 cont. it is my right as an american citizen to pursue happiness, HOWEVER if i fail i fail. THAT is the definition of the american capitalist's dream. as historyisknowledge said in the highest rated comments, PEOPLE WHO WORK HARD DESERVE THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABOR.
@judofighter10 no rtard im saying that socialism is a system that would only make this country weaker, as more and more people wouldn't have to work in order to recieve money (this group would consist mainly of the lower class). oh and yes, most people in the upper class are very hardworking people, such as doctors, scientists, ceos, etc. people like you make their position out to be greedy and evil. now please tell me this: WHAT IN THE ASS IS WRONG WITH WANTING MONEY??? IS IT A SIN??
@chanceie12 yeah... i guess my example is not allowed. thats funny i know a lot of people who are rich that are good people. we use their position as an excuse to potray them as evil in order to change american ways of thinking. i guess i wont work hard then, just get free cash from the more successful. only then can we make americans lazier. p.s. yes i am in school and also you got pwned by an 8th grader. *round of applause*
here's what i think about socialism in any case: I GET A 100 ON A TEST. MY BUDDY GETS A 60 BECAUSE HE DIDN'T STUDY. NOW SUBTRACT 20 POINTS FROM MY TEST TO HIS SO THAT WE BOTH HAVE AN 80. IS IT FAIR THAT WHILE I WORK HARD AND HE GOOFS OFF, I END UP WITH A LOWER GRADE? I THINK NOT
@cheislame you are an idiot .. seriously you need ti gi back to school .. what does Socialism have to do with your friend getting crap results on his test but then having the same as results as you?
Socialism is where the people get to decide what they want to do with there money , not the rich who have control of everything , helping the poor working class .
the fact is the rulling clas knows they can send so much info towards people that in the end they can say out loud their true agends for our slavery and americans wont move a finger, their brains are too tired their bodys too fat their moral standarts low and their belief in the usa even lower, immigration is another thing if you cant see yourself in your neighbor you wont want to pay your taxes for someone who dosent talk same language or was same cuklture or desire for future
@SonsofLiberty740 why do u make only 20K? get a higher education or choose a more profitable field. u cant blame any president for your financial limitations. conservative or liberal. silly man. u might be an adolescent then id understand.
Man Michael Moore is a tard. Bitching about Bush bailing out the rich then OBama just comes in and bails them out again. Guess you didn't see that one coming fat boy!
I wish Obama was a socialist. He's farther right than the conservative God, Ronald Reagan. Conservatives in the united states, for the last 40 years have moved farther and farther right and insisted Democrats meet them in the middle, and somewhere along the way Democrats have moved to the center and Republicans have moved into an insane asylum (paraphrasing Bill Maher)
I love the fact that alot of Americans think socialism is another version of comunism... the 50's did a real number on the fear mentality, socialism isn't evil, hell their police, firefighters, schoo teachers, etc are paid for by the government... thats socialism
@ipwnagee Probably because socialism, is good for America in certain aspects, such as Police, Fire Fighters, school teachers etc... but not when it comes to big business like healthcare, then it becomes an issue. Non profit healthcare isn't good business for the insurance companies OR the pharmacutical companies!
@Suprahampton Hasn't just been the 50s! But if Americans fear Stalinism it's for a fucking good reason. I just wish we'd fear it rationally. But let's remember, there was the first Red Scare too. Not to mention all the extreme propaganda that surrounded the Haymarket affair and the reception of the Paris Commune by the American media. Then you go all the way back to the 18th century and you get the Alien and Sedition Act, put forth to stifle the continuation of the American Revolution.
@Suprahampton ok there smart guy what the fuck do think would happen when one of those policemen or firefighters decide hey im not going to work today i get paid just the same as everyone else. please tell me????
@chip123451000 When was the last time a police officer said "I'm getting the same pay as everybody else, why should I go to work"? It's retarded, because the wages differ from other professions and if he stays at home he gets nothing
@chip123451000 I guess America must be the best country in the world to live in then, and Northern Europe must be a cesspool of bonegrinding poverty and massive inequality - oh wait...
@atosafi1 i think that is in reverse, there has been more censorship from democrats than republicans.
Another point will say Moore is right when Socialism takes effect in this country rich people like John Kerry, Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid will be the only people to afford in a socialism society.
@atosafi1 That is right, you really don't understand. You also don't understand that this fat fuck Michael Moore is one of these rich people he is speaking out against. He is the worst hypocrite there is. He has made millions off of the capitalism he speaks against.
@Brdj010 So? That's like saying Socialism is an exclusive club only for the poor and the oppressed.
It's like saying that anyone who lives in America and criticizes American politics and policies is a hypocrite.
Maybe you've heard of the term "The Capitalists will sell us the rope by which we will hang them". Basically that the capitalists are so short-sighted and greedy that they will create the conditions whereby an overthrow of the current system will occur, as it did during the Depression.
@atosafi1 I live here, dumbass. I know what it is like here. The economy goes up and down. Most of the time recessions are minor. Due to some mistakes made that have been fixed the economy was worse than usual this time. The economy will improve. The Michael Moore that you love has made millions off of the capitalism he complains about. As long as he keeps getting paid for blabbing his nonsense, he will keep making his millions.
@Brdj010 You're naive if you think the causes for this recession have been addressed. Deregulation, privatization, neoliberal globalization and deindustrialization are what got us into this mess, none of these problems have been addressed
There will be another crisis, much larger than this one and in the same league as the Depression. What remains to be seen is if a repeat of the 20th century happens where proto-fascists from the right-wing seize power, or if the Left can present an alternative
@atosafi1 So far you haven't presented anything other than stupid communism which has failed time and time again. What is wrong with privitazation anyway?? You want the government controlling us like robots?? Sorry, but I like my freedom of choice.
@Brdj010 Where have I ever proposed Communism? I think your problem is that you confuse everything that's left of market fundamentalism with stalinism. I'm a Democratic Socialist(a.k.a Social Democrat) and believe in Fair Trade, not Free Trade.
Privatization has time and again shown us that it is a failure, it leads to higher costs and prices for the consumers and citizens, it leads to inferior quality, as the private owners want to maximize profits, and it leads to an erosion of democracy.
@atosafi1 Have a look at the Stockholm Metro. Ever since 2006, the old trains have been nearly phased out. The trains are always on schedule, and brother - the company that runs them is private.
You just invent your own agenda and try to make it pass for reality.
@DrStrangebomb1993 SL is owned by Stockholms Landsting, and SL is the one who provides funds and financing for all major projects. As for the trains always being on schedule, that's hard to believe, we've had two winters now with chaos in the public transit system, mainly because there are dozens of different private companies who all handle different areas of the public transportation system - it's disorganized, ineffective, expensive and bad for travelers and citizens.
@atosafi1 Oh so my dad is greedy because he worked 12h/day the last four years to keep his company afloat while the welfare state of Sweden bloody nearly taxed him to death? And now when he's finally made some money, you socialist moochers come swarming to take his money too?
Moore is a capitalist, he's made tons of money off his lying documentaries yet unlike B. Gates he doesn't even give some of it to charity. He dressed badly to delude you jerks, but he's a hypocrite.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Your dad didn't create that company all on his own, now did he? A company is created through labour and cooperation, by the workers, the consumers, the citizens, the taxpayers and the management.
If the rich and powerful don't share their wealth to those who helped them accumulate it, society cannot develop, and instead they will lose it all when the have-nots take what is rightfully theirs by force.
@atosafi1 Actually he did. He saved his salary for 10 years before starting it. He pays everyone out of his own pocket. He's traveled far and wide to seek investors, and works 12h days, as I mentioned.
We almost had to sell our house recently, and who helped us out of this? NOBODY. Dad fought like a tiger and managed to make ends meet. So don't you parasitic lice try to take credit for something you didn't do. Read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand - you might recognize yourself.
@DrStrangebomb1993 That's good for him, but rugged individualism is nothing but a sham. Yet you still proved my point, without the workers, the consumers and the taxpayers he wouldn't have any labour to produce his goods, anyone that would buy and consume them and no infrastructure to transport the goods on to a market.
You're making it sound like something that's good, that you were almost made homeless and your dad "fought like a tiger". Maybe your dad managed it, but most wouldn't.
@atosafi1 What did the taxpayers do for him then? Oh right, nothing. And the few employees he has get repaid exactly what their services are worth to him - those are their salaries. It's idiotic to say that my dad owes the taxpayers anything, he is a taxpayer himself and pays for the massive subsidy packages that are sent to those blowhards at SAAB. Socialism is a system by which the productive are taxed and the incompetent subsidized.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Taxpayers finance the public transportation system that his employees use to get to the workplace, taxpayers finance the infrastructure used to transport his goods to a market, taxpayers finance the social safety net to protect his employees when they're unemployed, sick or elderly, meaning his workers are more productive as they don't need to worry about those things and can focus on working instead.
Taxpayers finance the public services you and your dad use everyday.
@atosafi1 We'd rather not pay 80% of our money in taxes and instead pay exactly for what we need ourselves, thank you very much. Ever wondered why Switzerland has better infrastructure and healthcare than us Swedes with just 30% taxes? Taxes' aren't god's (or Marx's in your case, no doubt) answer to every problem in the universe, you know...
@DrStrangebomb1993 The fact of the matter still is that without taxpayers, citizens, workers and consumers your dad would never have been able to successfully integrate into the Swedish society, he would never have been able to start up a company and would never have been able to sustain that company.
The free market is a naive dream, good in theory but a disaster in practice. We would not have a healthy, confident and educated nation and citizenry without welfare and progressive taxation.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Taxes are used to fund regulatory bodies, public services and essentials of government. They're used to subsidize things such as child care and elder care
Without welfare and taxation we'd live in a brutal society with dominant corporate interests, if we become unemployed we become dirt poor, if we become sick we might aswell die and when we grow old we have no one to take care of us
Progressive taxation is used to even out the rich-poor divide and give an equal chance to all
@atosafi1 Chances are not given, but taken, you know. No one gave my father a chance to start his own firm. As we do know, the private sector does everything better because they compete. In LA for instance, private companies build roads and charge people to use them, which saves them lots of time as congestion is nonexistent. If you get stuck in traffic, you get a refund. Win-win situation.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Anything to back up that claim? Charging people to use roads to me seems more like a short-sighted solution to the global warming problem and a way to take money from the poor and the working-class instead of raising taxes on the rich and the upper middle-class
I'd like a source for your claims about LA, too, please
As Eric Maskin, winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics, stated: "Competitive markets are ill-suited to the production or delivery of public goods"
@atosafi1 Type in "John Stossel roads" here on YouTube. They have a neat example of a tunnel in Paris, privately built and maintained, which shortens the travel time from north to south from 45 to 18 minutes. Private beats government, deal with it.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Now the highway is privately run, very expensive to drive on, almost no one uses it, and the old highway is more crowded than ever and the amount of money lost due to delays, extra fuel costs, additional pollution, and lost productivity is huge
@atosafi1 It's wrong to say that "almost nobody uses it". Check out the damn statistics and pictures of it - many drivers prefer to use it. Also, I spoke mainly of roads that had been built by PRIVATE FIRMS, for private use. Those are generally much faster, and much cheaper, than what the government has to offer. Profit makes perfect, it provides the incitement firms need to clear away traffic jams faster than if the government ran it.
@DrStrangebomb1993 I have a hard time believing it would be good for the economy if all the roads were private. Transportation would be a mess, prices would soar and workers, companies and export/import would be badly hurt.
Most the roads you're talking about as being "private" are just government contracts being given to private construction companies.
Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't be profitable to build roads in a rural area where there is no traffic, so the country would suffer.
@atosafi1 No, most of them are not. Please try to use logic. The example in California was privately built, as was the one in Paris. The bottom line is that most of the roads could well enough be operated by corporations who would do a hell of a better job than the government. Also, we'd not have to pay for things we do not use.
@DrStrangebomb1993 They are contracted by the government to build the roads and highways and sign on a Public-Private Partnership. Since profits are guaranteed and losses are socialized they can take whatever risks they want, knowing the taxpayers will foot the bill
It's not profitable to build a road in the middle of the country-side, therefore it is built publicly or a PPP is signed where all losses are guaranteed by the state
It's basically shifting the tax burden from the rich to the poor
@atosafi1 As for healthcare, the private sector does it better as queues are shorter and the incentive to treat patients is greater as they earn more money for every person they treat. As opposed to Michael Moore's Sicko, try watching 20/20, the debate between Moore and John Stossel entitled "Whose body is it anyway"? Many Canadians fly to the US to get treatment, some of whom would've died waiting in line in Canada.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Private healthcare is not cheaper, the US spends 16% of its GDP on healthcare whereas Western europe spends 8%. The private hospitals themselves might be cheaper, as the new owners fire half the workforce and force the remaining workers to work twice as hard for less pay under threat of unemployment and make drastic cuts to the service.
Employees become worn out and sick and large control apparatuses are needed to inspect the entire healthcare system, which is expensive.
@atosafi1 Listen: they can't treat their employees like slaves, if they do not only would the unions go batshit, they would also leave. The lack of government bureaucracy is what pushes the price down, not this childish imagination of slave-labor you cherish.
And like I said, if the US spends 16% of its GDP on it, that's still spent by GOVERNMENT and not a valid argument against private healthcare.
@DrStrangebomb1993 You have a naive belief in the private sector: first of all, the unemployed end up in poverty because the social insurance-systems, such as unemployment benefits, are at the poverty level - so they become desperate for a job and are willing to undercut eachother, and the private owners use that to play the unemployed off against the employed in order to create a Race to the Bottom and drive down wages, in other words, unions become weak and powerless.
@atosafi1 If they undercut each other, it's a part of the market economy. That is why the minimum wage should be abolished - it destroys the entry-level jobs young people like myself need to get into the workforce. Paradoxically, good employees are usually paid a lot more than the minimum wage, because the employer wants to keep them working for him. Why do you think unemployment is so high in ghettoes? Because the minimum wage makes young, uneducated people's services useless.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Supply and demand in the workforce won't work, the employer has a much greater power over the workers in such a situation and can easily play them off against one another in order to drive down wages and maintain cheap labour. Why do you think unions gained ground to begin with?
There's a high demand for engineers, so they can bargain for better wages, but regular workers in construction and cleaning, for example, are easily replacable and therefore need to cooperate.
@atosafi1 Of course they are easily replaceable, because it takes no education to become a janitor. However if they work well they're still more valuable to the company that your average hobo in the streets. The fact that they're easily replaceable means that inflation is kept down, at the price of slight unemployment. As we know, 0% unemployment invariably leads to inflation.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Yeah, and if supply and demand was followed the middle-class would be wiped out and the working-class would be living under 19th century conditions.
What right-wingers don't understand is that corporations invest based on expected profits, if demand is low because wages are low and insecurity is high, they will fire employees and push down wages, which leads to even less consumption as neither employed or unemployed consume because of poverty and terrible wages/conditions.
@DrStrangebomb1993 As for inflation and unemployment, during the Golden Age(1951-1973), which was the social democratic, keynesian era, average global growth was at about 4.8% and unemployment in France and Britain was around 1.2% and 1.6%. Compare that to Washington Consensus(1981-2008), the era of neoliberalism, where average global growth was at around 3.2% and unemployment in France and Britain was at around 9.5% and 7.4%.
Global inflation was at around 3.9% during GA and 3.2% dyrung WC,
the reason Sweden was doing so well was that it'd made profitable affairs with both Nazis and Allies during the war, and that they hadn't joined it in the first place. Also, despite their alleged distaste of the right-wing government, the reds did maintain a relatively low tax level until the 1970s and the rise of Palme. Also the fact that you seized the media and stuffed it with like-minded individuals did help a lot, you know...
@DrStrangebomb1993 I don't see how Nazis, Allies and Palme are relevant to the discussion at hand? It's not exclusively about Sweden, it's about the entire world, that's why it says Global inflation, and Global growth.
@atosafi1 It has got to do with the matter, since this is why Sweden was so far ahead of the others during the period 1945-1975. Then the tax raises killed off the economy. And the "löntagarfonder" pretty much was the last nail in the coffin for Swedish businesses, thankfully Bildt abolished them in 1991.
@atosafi1 And don't try to say that the Nobel Prize has any worth, they hand it out to anybody who parrots their beliefs. Gandhi received no peace prize despite decades of peaceful protests, Obama received it for lying about withdrawing from Iraq. Nice, huh?`
How about you come with counter-arguments against what I posted instead of aggressive damnation and mindless blabbering? Either that or don't bother responding.
@DrStrangebomb1993 As you can see, it was during the Social Democratic era that growth was at its highest, unemployment at its lowest, employment at its best and the gap between rich and poor at its smallest.
It was superior to the neoliberal era in all areas except for inflation, where there was no big difference.
The connection between employment and inflation is a fallacy, as I've already clarified.
The statistics come from the IMF, search for "2008-2009 Keynesian resurgence".
@DrStrangebomb1993 Have you seen what highway privatization can do? About 14 years ago the Province of Ontario, after years of consultation, planning, and finally construction, built a highway to offload the traffic from the overcrowded, existing highway running through Toronto. The Conservative gov't of the day decided that they were going to drastically cut taxes but that would leave them with a deficit, so they sold off provincial assets including this highway (leased it out for 99 years).
@atosafi1 It's also amusing how all socialist think the paycheck just disappears when government picks it up. The extra amount of bureaucracy makes costs soar. Cofiroute, the French company that builds and maintains private roads, is also working to extend the network in California. Think of the congestion tax we have in Stockholm. It's not more expensive than that, but in return you get a fast journey virtually free of accidents.
@DrStrangebomb1993 Also, as I said before, roads and highways are too expensive to maintain without high prices and tariffs, so the poor have to foot the bill and the rich get away cheap. The only reason private corporations are so keen on taking over operations in public transport, mail delivery and so on is because Public-Private Partnerships are signed; Profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
We can't allow roads to go bankrupt, so we guarantee any losses made with our tax-money.
@Brdj010 Public transport is not a profitable business, the only reason so many private corporations are willing to take over operations is because a Public-Private Partnership is signed, where profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
That pretty much means these corporations can take any risks they want, knowing the citizens will foot the bill if they lose money.
If the private sector decided, public transport wouldn't exist outside City limits because rural areas are not profitable.
@atosafi1 i guess the American govornment hasn't spent trillions of dollars on programs to pass out welfare to those who don't work. Also, Detroit(The poster child of a socialist agenda in the 1970's) is totally booming with wealth after all that money the govornment put into it and all that govornment interference with capitalism hasn't put us trillions of dollars of debt - oh wait...
@atosafi1 It is relevant considering thats how european socialism works in america and has toppled America from being the best country in the world. Bailing out big corporate banks is lobbyism.
@YourMindOnDrugz I don't see how bailing out big corporations is socialism. That's corporatism, which is a result of unfettered, unregulated free-market fundamentalism; Capitalism = Corporatism.
Socialism is regulating the economy well enough to prevent that these corporations need a bailout to begin with.
@atosafi1 Corporatism isn't is capitalism. Its lobbyism. Your contradicting yourself by saying by having a free market is bailing out big corporations. But a free-market is defined by not having ANY govornment intervention.(So no bailouts)
So how can a market be free? and have govornment intervention?
(I don't think you know what lobbyism is. Its basically legal bribery. Corporations can pay law makers to change laws, regulations, or urge them to do something)
@YourMindOnDrugz Corporatism is a direct result of unfettered, deregulated, free-market capitalism. Because as Karl Popper said "If the government does not intervene and try to control the markets, other shady organisations, such as trusts, multi-national predators and political extremes, will." If you let the markets run amok, there is nothing stopping them from banding together to create monopolies, infiltrating government to pass favourable laws and crushing the middle- and working-class.
True Free energy devices exist,But some very powerfull ppl don't want you and me to be free from energy costs,Get a real free energy motor at LT-MAGNET-MOTORdotCOM ,Start the energy revolution!
michael moore has to be the dmbest person in the usa. he talks about how ggreat socialism is yet has his millions making treasonous inaccurate movies. he and hollywood elites dont want anyone else to have money so they get their socialist agenda going to keep most poor. damn him and them and the democraps!
It's funny how both top comments are made by a Swedish communist with whom I've had to debate several times. Incidentally, he also left a comment on my channel - which I subsequently deleted - where he told me he wished I'd get raped for my political ideology. Oh well. Communism at its finest, eh?
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
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Michael Moore is such a lying hypocrite. The man has made MILLIONS off of capitalism for complaining about it.
Brdj010 3 months ago
Somebody needs to harpoon that fat fucker for lamp oil.
RadarGuidedVermin 3 months ago
JOBS ! NOT GOP CUTS !!!
kn9ioutom 3 months ago
Fuck is a bad word, not socialist.. stupid ass media puts the fear of everything in ignorant people
grandmama45 4 months ago
You know what, Instead of telling Liberals they are confused and wrong. I'll just let time pass and let people watch what happens when Liberals run countries.
Owliganka 4 months ago
@ignbtd well thats not factually true. I wasnt that man was re-modelled, he rediscovered himself
wage labour makes man forget himself, his talents and his relationship with his specie.. Karl Marx also wanted capitalism to work so it could destroy itself. He was against welfare from the state because he thought it was a way in which the government controlled the poor.
AndyMcRfc 4 months ago
@ignbtd Well that's another weak arguement. Can you please give your definition of communism because if its that government forces people to spread the wealth then your complely wrong. Your saying that Hotel Baun don't labour labour organizers. Well that's because they don't exist thats the point. A painter can run his own business and can be a good business man. In Scotland anyway a good trades man can make as much as a lawyer on some occasions.
AndyMcRfc 4 months ago
@ignbtd well that is a very weak argument because it is based on the assumption that everyone who isn't a owner in the sweet shop is an idiot. Which is absolute crap because there are people with PHD's who work in sweet shops .
There is proof that you don't need CEO's. i mean can you run a big company without workers. Well the answer is no. Can run a company without a CEO , the answer is yes. As long as workers have a mutual understanding ,the workers can run the company together.
AndyMcRfc 4 months ago
@ignbtd well why do companies need employers? why not just employees? Like in hotel bauen. Google it. Also Bologna has 8,000 cooperatives which is three times more than New york and it is one the richest cities in Italy. It also a good university to boot.
AndyMcRfc 4 months ago
@ignbtd well why cant it be $24 an hour instead for everyone or whatever the company makes is share between the workers. I mean how can you say that capitalism doesn't exploit people. The slave trade existed in a capitalist system.
AndyMcRfc 4 months ago
Moore is another liberal n.w.o ist
frank0067 4 months ago
@ignbtd Where has capitalism worked without a government??? Because socialism and workers management has worked without a government. On sweatshops, I can't believe how stupid you are. You must think that fuedalism was also humane because people who feared hunger and poverty forced their kids to work in that society as well. Maybe you can't see people as animals with DNA and psychology, just tools for your money making schemes, that's a failure of you however of you as a human and a man.
2787mh 5 months ago
socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest
Wahoofuck 5 months ago
@ignbtd well thats only if you believe that communism can only exist under government control. I mean it is not like capitalism has no help from the state.
why did capitalism create nation states if it is anti-statist?
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
In Communism, man exploits man. Capitalism is just the opposite.
sselt2 5 months ago
@sselt2 no dictator exploit people, not communism. Capitalism is a system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
@AndyMcRfc
Have you ever tried studying some... history? Eastern Europe? Stalin? The Gulag Land?
Have you heard about any of these?
Xjarq 5 months ago
@Xjarq well communism didn't really exist under Stalin because he was a dictator. Communism is a system or theory of social organisation based on the holding of property in common. Stalin controlled everything so it was the complete opposite.
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
@AndyMcRfc
You're doing great quoting an encyclopedia, but the fact is that communism was/is about exploiting people.
I suggest you go for a summer vacation to Cuba, or China, or North Korea. That should teach you something a book won't.
Xjarq 5 months ago
@Xjarq No need to be rude, I'm just trying to have a debate.
Well like i said again dictators exploit people not communism. China is becoming the new super power so be happy to visit China.
If you think Cuba is in a bad state you should have seen the stats before Castro took over. The poverty rate was much worse than it is now. This was when the Americans were in charge of Cuba. Castro used to be about spreading the wealth and freeing people from America.
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
@AndyMcRfc
Listen, since you were immune to any East European issues, I've given the contemporary examples of a communist country, which situation seems to be OK, in your opinion.
I live in Poland, now let me tell you how life was back THEN (till 1990):
- you could buy a car only if you had a special "card" which allowed you to do so.
- the same applied to a flat,
- or even meat.
Technically it was impossible to start your own business, apart from buying a tractor (card needed) and...
Xjarq 5 months ago
@AndyMcRfc
...and deciding to be a farmer.
- You couldn't go abroad cause: 1. You didn't have enough money (a $10/month salary in the 80s) 2. You wouldn't get a visa.
- NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Should I say more?
Xjarq 5 months ago
@Xjarq why is capitalism not about exploiting people when a person works in a sweatshop and gets paid $5 for something that sells at $50 each time. (ie: sportswear) You do know businesses just need workers not managers and owners? Study language, history, psychology, sociology and you will see how creative people are in groups, intelligence existed before capitalism. Also consider this, the people took down the soviet union, what a beautiful socialist moment of social solidarity.
2787mh 5 months ago
@2787mh
I don't know what kind of mental obstacle you, people in the West, have with understanding what communism/socialism IN REAL LIFE, NOT BOOKS is about.
AISI, it's a matter of living through it, if your brain isn't developed enough to imagine/believe in it, that is.
Look at all East European countries (read two of my last comments, please). Those were real communist states, and tell me, why those countries are less developed than the US?
Xjarq 5 months ago
@Xjarq and as we keep telling you that was not proper communism in Eastern Europe. It was marketed as socialism and communism but it wasn't it was Stalinism. America has one of the highest murder rates and it is behind many in healthcare.
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
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Xjarq 5 months ago
@AndyMcRfc
A Brit and an American are telling a Pole what "proper communism" means, LOL.
So, tell me what was after Stalinism in Eastern Europe?
Xjarq 5 months ago
@Xjarq do you mean after the Soviet union? or after Stalin because if your next point is that after Stalinism there was communism then that is not a good arguement. It was based on the same principles as Stalinism with Nikita Khrushchev. If you look at Karl Marx's theory of communism you see that they difer from what Stalin represented. Mate don't get me wrong here I'm not trying to be dick . I'm just saying capitalism isn't as fair as you think it is . Its not a black or white issue.
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
@AndyMcRfc
But, what you two are saying is based only on theoretical assumptions. Yes, socialism/communism, in theory, is different from what was is Eastern Europe from 1945-1990. You're talking about theory and I'm describing communism the way it was, let's say, arranged in real life. I don't think there's any other model of communism in the world besides the one that was presented by the Soviet Union in E. Europe.
Xjarq 5 months ago
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@Xjarq well Sweden and France are Socialist countries. Although socialism is where profits are shared equally in the community .
They have some the best healthcare system in the world. In Argentina there are companies which use the socialist model where wealth is actually destributed equally amongest them and it works. The two biggest football clubs in Europe if not the world Barcelona and Real Madrid are socialist .
Also there are atleast 15 types of communism.
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
Comment removed
AndyMcRfc 5 months ago
@Xjarq Why not, Poles know nothing of communism. For a start it is based on stateless communes. Did you know that?
2787mh 5 months ago
@2787mh
"Poles know nothing of communism" mwahahahaha!
OK, nobama man have a nice life!
Xjarq 5 months ago
@Xjarq Have you ever lived in a stateless commune?
2787mh 4 months ago
democracy cannot exist whilst there is capitalism. and by democracy, i'm not talking about the odd vote now and again for the same puppets to big business and other elites. i'm talking about people being empowered, and socialism allows for that by giving workers control over the means of production.
pk550 5 months ago
@SheerHeartAttack74 Universal Healthcare? Also, Obama can't just say "okay this is law now", the dumbshit Republicans in the HoR ruin everything.
skadrumcovers 6 months ago
You End the War in iraq! Well he hasn't done that! Money needs to be distributed to the poor? Isnt Michael Moore worth between $25-50 Million! Why isn't he distributing his wealth?
stuboi1000 7 months ago
class warfare exist..
yesgyes 7 months ago
Yeah, of course I agree that socialism is terrible for Americans because American socialism = socialism for the rich. So, that's why! If we had true capitalism in this third world industrialized country, then the middle class would not decline and the poorer would not become poorer.
TheLavish99 7 months ago
Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
-Luke 6:20
"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort."
-Luke 6:24
esca8652 8 months ago
“People get the government they deserve.” Aristotle
Pappyroys 10 months ago
Socialism is the cry you hear from greedy pricks who want to keep phucking their fellow citizens over so they can TRY to appease their overwhelming greed tendencies.
The best is the crying about M. Moore, "OMG HE'S RICH!" yeah, that's what happens when you make movies. You make gobs and gobs of money, just ask James Cameron.
nethoser 10 months ago
people who work hard deserve the fruits of their labour??i worked for DHL for 10 years.i worked bank holidays and christmas's .what thank's did i get??6 pay cuts in a year,the money i was making was going back in to going to work,i could'nt meet my household biils.i worked 18 hour's a day,i still could'nt make money.then i discover management had recieved bonuses for making the cut's.i was sacked for voiceing my opinion.is that a fair and just system to you?or are you the one who sacked me?
2009alski 10 months ago
So much for Obama getting rid of the tax cuts for the rich...
I am disappoint.
avenuePad 10 months ago
Yeah, Moore, keep on directing your Fiction, and making Millions on Fradulent movies. Here is an idea, if rich people should give up their money, how about you start.
usam1981 11 months ago
@usam1981 No, no what are you talking about??? he makes his movies free online. if he had so much money he would have had lipo years ago....
Arkayam 10 months ago
@Arkayam He does his movies online because Nobody really likes his work anymore. Before people realised he was full of shit, he got LOADS of money, and is currently a multi Millionare.
usam1981 10 months ago
@usam1981 get outta hear you capitalist pig
Arkayam 9 months ago
@Arkayam As long as that is your opinion of me, you LOOSE the arguement.
usam1981 9 months ago
@usam1981 what an ignoramus statement, grow up, face life yourself and ALL the shit that happens than cry back to me about how Socialistic ideas arre better. Capitalism is for the rich, promoted by rich, and work only for the rich! This leaves a SMALL window of oppurtunity for other people LIKE YOU AND ME
Arkayam 9 months ago
@Arkayam And Socalism is for the Foolish, and the small minded, which tells me everything I need to know about you. Capatilism has made this country what it is today, and Socalism has destroyed every country that has tried it.
usam1981 9 months ago
@usam1981 Haha funny, because with the debt the US has, i wouldn't say you are successful. Maybe the rich is successful, but the average people is paying the consequences. Research how china owns your ass right now. Start studying Chinese language, you are gonna need it.
memohavok 9 months ago
@memohavok Yeah, well, guess who's fault that is, it sure as hell is not Bush's fault. People like this idiot, who think that the rich should pay more than they currently do are in the blame, because the Rich are the ones who are creating the jobs. Hurt them, hurt the economy further.
usam1981 9 months ago
@usam1981 Thats very stupid to say. That is called corporate facism. Things are better with many small companies around. But, hey, the big corporations are creating the jobs? Thats right, jobs in india, china, mexico, vietnam, hong kong. While their CEOS are swimming in money in the US.
memohavok 9 months ago
@memohavok And do you want to know why they go over seas, TAXES, everyone of them has the same reason. Do you think that raising taxes on them will keep them here, or cause them to take more over seas. The higher the taxes, the worse things will get. That is where you Libs fail.
usam1981 9 months ago
@usam1981 No, corporations went overseas because American workers have been too successful. I.e. they have won too many rights. It's much easier to suck on the labor of a 16-21 year old Chinese girl than to worry about all the legal victories of the American worker. You act like it is the responsibility of the American people to make the ruling economic elite (who has profited immensely from all this) happy. You are a cowardly piece of dog shit, and a shill for the business community.
agapeiron 8 months ago
@usam1981 Fuck you, fuck the rich and fuck George W. Bush. Fuck the Democrats too for that matter, for betraying the working class. The rich are not creating jobs, they are investing their money in private submarines. They not only hurt the economy; they hurt the polity. When the rich get in the way of the polity, it is necessary for a functioning democratic society to sweep the rich away. And how can you help? By learning how to fuck off indefinitely.
agapeiron 8 months ago
@agapeiron "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by dictatorship."
You do realize that neither the country or the economy can function without the rich, right?
Cosmo1093 8 months ago
@Cosmo1093 You do realize that unquestioned assumptions about the inevitability of class society do not constitute an argument?
agapeiron 8 months ago
It used to be that if you didn't work hard then you'd die or get help from a charity, not ride on the backs of good people and demand money from the government because for some twisted reason you believe you are entitled to someone else's money. I'd be more than happy to give money to charities rather than the government telling me how much of my money I should be giving up.
bsg1206 11 months ago
PUBLIC GOOD IS MORE THAN THE AGGREGATION OF PRIVATE WANTS!!!!!!!!
califasun 11 months ago
obama is no a socialist, he's even worse he's a sell out
toberses11 11 months ago
@judofighter10 cont. it is my right as an american citizen to pursue happiness, HOWEVER if i fail i fail. THAT is the definition of the american capitalist's dream. as historyisknowledge said in the highest rated comments, PEOPLE WHO WORK HARD DESERVE THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABOR.
cheislame 11 months ago
@judofighter10 no rtard im saying that socialism is a system that would only make this country weaker, as more and more people wouldn't have to work in order to recieve money (this group would consist mainly of the lower class). oh and yes, most people in the upper class are very hardworking people, such as doctors, scientists, ceos, etc. people like you make their position out to be greedy and evil. now please tell me this: WHAT IN THE ASS IS WRONG WITH WANTING MONEY??? IS IT A SIN??
cheislame 11 months ago
no response...
cheislame 11 months ago
Micheal Moore Is laughing his ass off in one his million dollar houses. this guy is a joke.
bloody1110 11 months ago
Where is he now? Obama has spent Trillions of dollars of money we dont have
loffytoffy1 11 months ago
@chanceie12 cont. also if you can't disect my comment and actually find the meaning, then you should come to school with me
cheislame 11 months ago
@chanceie12 yeah... i guess my example is not allowed. thats funny i know a lot of people who are rich that are good people. we use their position as an excuse to potray them as evil in order to change american ways of thinking. i guess i wont work hard then, just get free cash from the more successful. only then can we make americans lazier. p.s. yes i am in school and also you got pwned by an 8th grader. *round of applause*
cheislame 11 months ago
@badsign1980 don't you dare make fun of my country! the usa could own your asses any time of the week so don't you be shooting caps at us.
cheislame 1 year ago
here's what i think about socialism in any case: I GET A 100 ON A TEST. MY BUDDY GETS A 60 BECAUSE HE DIDN'T STUDY. NOW SUBTRACT 20 POINTS FROM MY TEST TO HIS SO THAT WE BOTH HAVE AN 80. IS IT FAIR THAT WHILE I WORK HARD AND HE GOOFS OFF, I END UP WITH A LOWER GRADE? I THINK NOT
cheislame 1 year ago
@cheislame you are an idiot .. seriously you need ti gi back to school .. what does Socialism have to do with your friend getting crap results on his test but then having the same as results as you?
Socialism is where the people get to decide what they want to do with there money , not the rich who have control of everything , helping the poor working class .
chanceie12 11 months ago
@cheislame So youre saying that people who aren't rich are all lazy? and that every rich person has worked hard to get there money?
judofighter10 11 months ago
the fact is the rulling clas knows they can send so much info towards people that in the end they can say out loud their true agends for our slavery and americans wont move a finger, their brains are too tired their bodys too fat their moral standarts low and their belief in the usa even lower, immigration is another thing if you cant see yourself in your neighbor you wont want to pay your taxes for someone who dosent talk same language or was same cuklture or desire for future
badsign1980 1 year ago
its almost a year into the obama admin....... i make less than 20k a year and my taxes are higher........
SonsofLiberty740 1 year ago
@SonsofLiberty740 why do u make only 20K? get a higher education or choose a more profitable field. u cant blame any president for your financial limitations. conservative or liberal. silly man. u might be an adolescent then id understand.
Pisces31660 1 year ago
Man Michael Moore is a tard. Bitching about Bush bailing out the rich then OBama just comes in and bails them out again. Guess you didn't see that one coming fat boy!
OntologicalQuandary 1 year ago
MARXIST PHILOSOPHY
1. Consciousness comes from material existence.(materialism, i.e. no god)
2. Class is a relationship to the means of production.
3. Classes are always in conflict.
4. Change is due to the conflict between opposing forces(dialectics)
danielc1112 1 year ago
I wish Obama was a socialist. He's farther right than the conservative God, Ronald Reagan. Conservatives in the united states, for the last 40 years have moved farther and farther right and insisted Democrats meet them in the middle, and somewhere along the way Democrats have moved to the center and Republicans have moved into an insane asylum (paraphrasing Bill Maher)
ThinkingMan1809 1 year ago
I love the fact that alot of Americans think socialism is another version of comunism... the 50's did a real number on the fear mentality, socialism isn't evil, hell their police, firefighters, schoo teachers, etc are paid for by the government... thats socialism
Suprahampton 1 year ago 42
@Suprahampton your right, but take a look at those things are they failing us?
islamiscrap8888 1 year ago
@islamiscrap8888 Because the government is trying to cut costs, same as ours in the UK.
Suprahampton 1 year ago
@Suprahampton so your saying that your government doesn't have administrative cost and that the people who give you your service do it for free?
islamiscrap8888 1 year ago
@islamiscrap8888 No im saying things are failing because governments impliment cost cutting... so certain things dont recieve sufficient funding
Suprahampton 1 year ago
@Suprahampton but why are they cutting back on funding?
islamiscrap8888 1 year ago
@Suprahampton
jerk, that's not socialism. Get a clue.
LogicalFlawDetector 10 months ago
@LogicalFlawDetector Reeeaaallllly, the government paying for public services..? Not socialism?!
Suprahampton 10 months ago
@Suprahampton I agree with you...Thank you for making that point.
valetudo1974 9 months ago
@Suprahampton haha,yea bro,I cant understand all this fear of Socialism,when there is Socialism in Europe.
ipwnagee 9 months ago
@ipwnagee Probably because socialism, is good for America in certain aspects, such as Police, Fire Fighters, school teachers etc... but not when it comes to big business like healthcare, then it becomes an issue. Non profit healthcare isn't good business for the insurance companies OR the pharmacutical companies!
Suprahampton 9 months ago
@Suprahampton who cares for the companies?The people come first,not business.
ipwnagee 9 months ago
@ipwnagee I would agree with that in ANY society however capitalism is all about making money & no one makes more than big business
Suprahampton 9 months ago
@Suprahampton that's the problem about capitalism,money first,money second,money third.
ipwnagee 9 months ago
@Suprahampton Hasn't just been the 50s! But if Americans fear Stalinism it's for a fucking good reason. I just wish we'd fear it rationally. But let's remember, there was the first Red Scare too. Not to mention all the extreme propaganda that surrounded the Haymarket affair and the reception of the Paris Commune by the American media. Then you go all the way back to the 18th century and you get the Alien and Sedition Act, put forth to stifle the continuation of the American Revolution.
agapeiron 8 months ago
@Suprahampton ok there smart guy what the fuck do think would happen when one of those policemen or firefighters decide hey im not going to work today i get paid just the same as everyone else. please tell me????
chip123451000 8 months ago
@chip123451000 What are you talking about? It hasn't happened so far by the way.
atosafi1 7 months ago
@atosafi1 it hasnt happened so far in a capitalist form of govment were u have to go to work to get paid
chip123451000 7 months ago
@chip123451000 When was the last time a police officer said "I'm getting the same pay as everybody else, why should I go to work"? It's retarded, because the wages differ from other professions and if he stays at home he gets nothing
atosafi1 7 months ago
@atosafi1 yes it works that way in capitalism, in socialism no one has incentives which is the main resound for it failing
chip123451000 7 months ago
@chip123451000 I guess America must be the best country in the world to live in then, and Northern Europe must be a cesspool of bonegrinding poverty and massive inequality - oh wait...
atosafi1 7 months ago 6
@atosafi1 No ones stopping you from moving to Northern Europe.....
chip123451000 7 months ago
@chip123451000 I live in Sweden, you dumbass.
atosafi1 7 months ago
@atosafi1 Then quit bitching about America u fucking fagget
chip123451000 7 months ago
@chip123451000 I see, so if I don't live in America I'm not allowed to have an opinion on the matter. Republican logic at its best.
atosafi1 7 months ago 8
@atosafi1 Your god damn right!!!
chip123451000 7 months ago
@atosafi1 i think that is in reverse, there has been more censorship from democrats than republicans.
Another point will say Moore is right when Socialism takes effect in this country rich people like John Kerry, Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid will be the only people to afford in a socialism society.
lovejen01 4 months ago
@atosafi1 That is right, you really don't understand. You also don't understand that this fat fuck Michael Moore is one of these rich people he is speaking out against. He is the worst hypocrite there is. He has made millions off of the capitalism he speaks against.
Brdj010 3 months ago
@Brdj010 So? That's like saying Socialism is an exclusive club only for the poor and the oppressed.
It's like saying that anyone who lives in America and criticizes American politics and policies is a hypocrite.
Maybe you've heard of the term "The Capitalists will sell us the rope by which we will hang them". Basically that the capitalists are so short-sighted and greedy that they will create the conditions whereby an overthrow of the current system will occur, as it did during the Depression.
atosafi1 3 months ago
@atosafi1 I live here, dumbass. I know what it is like here. The economy goes up and down. Most of the time recessions are minor. Due to some mistakes made that have been fixed the economy was worse than usual this time. The economy will improve. The Michael Moore that you love has made millions off of the capitalism he complains about. As long as he keeps getting paid for blabbing his nonsense, he will keep making his millions.
Brdj010 3 months ago
@Brdj010 You're naive if you think the causes for this recession have been addressed. Deregulation, privatization, neoliberal globalization and deindustrialization are what got us into this mess, none of these problems have been addressed
There will be another crisis, much larger than this one and in the same league as the Depression. What remains to be seen is if a repeat of the 20th century happens where proto-fascists from the right-wing seize power, or if the Left can present an alternative
atosafi1 3 months ago
@atosafi1 So far you haven't presented anything other than stupid communism which has failed time and time again. What is wrong with privitazation anyway?? You want the government controlling us like robots?? Sorry, but I like my freedom of choice.
Brdj010 3 months ago
@Brdj010 Where have I ever proposed Communism? I think your problem is that you confuse everything that's left of market fundamentalism with stalinism. I'm a Democratic Socialist(a.k.a Social Democrat) and believe in Fair Trade, not Free Trade.
Privatization has time and again shown us that it is a failure, it leads to higher costs and prices for the consumers and citizens, it leads to inferior quality, as the private owners want to maximize profits, and it leads to an erosion of democracy.
atosafi1 3 months ago 2
@atosafi1 Have a look at the Stockholm Metro. Ever since 2006, the old trains have been nearly phased out. The trains are always on schedule, and brother - the company that runs them is private.
You just invent your own agenda and try to make it pass for reality.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 SL is owned by Stockholms Landsting, and SL is the one who provides funds and financing for all major projects. As for the trains always being on schedule, that's hard to believe, we've had two winters now with chaos in the public transit system, mainly because there are dozens of different private companies who all handle different areas of the public transportation system - it's disorganized, ineffective, expensive and bad for travelers and citizens.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 Oh so my dad is greedy because he worked 12h/day the last four years to keep his company afloat while the welfare state of Sweden bloody nearly taxed him to death? And now when he's finally made some money, you socialist moochers come swarming to take his money too?
Moore is a capitalist, he's made tons of money off his lying documentaries yet unlike B. Gates he doesn't even give some of it to charity. He dressed badly to delude you jerks, but he's a hypocrite.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Your dad didn't create that company all on his own, now did he? A company is created through labour and cooperation, by the workers, the consumers, the citizens, the taxpayers and the management.
If the rich and powerful don't share their wealth to those who helped them accumulate it, society cannot develop, and instead they will lose it all when the have-nots take what is rightfully theirs by force.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 Actually he did. He saved his salary for 10 years before starting it. He pays everyone out of his own pocket. He's traveled far and wide to seek investors, and works 12h days, as I mentioned.
We almost had to sell our house recently, and who helped us out of this? NOBODY. Dad fought like a tiger and managed to make ends meet. So don't you parasitic lice try to take credit for something you didn't do. Read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand - you might recognize yourself.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 That's good for him, but rugged individualism is nothing but a sham. Yet you still proved my point, without the workers, the consumers and the taxpayers he wouldn't have any labour to produce his goods, anyone that would buy and consume them and no infrastructure to transport the goods on to a market.
You're making it sound like something that's good, that you were almost made homeless and your dad "fought like a tiger". Maybe your dad managed it, but most wouldn't.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 What did the taxpayers do for him then? Oh right, nothing. And the few employees he has get repaid exactly what their services are worth to him - those are their salaries. It's idiotic to say that my dad owes the taxpayers anything, he is a taxpayer himself and pays for the massive subsidy packages that are sent to those blowhards at SAAB. Socialism is a system by which the productive are taxed and the incompetent subsidized.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Taxpayers finance the public transportation system that his employees use to get to the workplace, taxpayers finance the infrastructure used to transport his goods to a market, taxpayers finance the social safety net to protect his employees when they're unemployed, sick or elderly, meaning his workers are more productive as they don't need to worry about those things and can focus on working instead.
Taxpayers finance the public services you and your dad use everyday.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 We'd rather not pay 80% of our money in taxes and instead pay exactly for what we need ourselves, thank you very much. Ever wondered why Switzerland has better infrastructure and healthcare than us Swedes with just 30% taxes? Taxes' aren't god's (or Marx's in your case, no doubt) answer to every problem in the universe, you know...
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 The fact of the matter still is that without taxpayers, citizens, workers and consumers your dad would never have been able to successfully integrate into the Swedish society, he would never have been able to start up a company and would never have been able to sustain that company.
The free market is a naive dream, good in theory but a disaster in practice. We would not have a healthy, confident and educated nation and citizenry without welfare and progressive taxation.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 So, if the government didn't tax my father 70-80%, he would never have been able to start his own company, or sustain it...?
Do you even know how fucking illogical you sound? Those damn taxes of yours is the reason he nearly went bankrupt!
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Taxes are used to fund regulatory bodies, public services and essentials of government. They're used to subsidize things such as child care and elder care
Without welfare and taxation we'd live in a brutal society with dominant corporate interests, if we become unemployed we become dirt poor, if we become sick we might aswell die and when we grow old we have no one to take care of us
Progressive taxation is used to even out the rich-poor divide and give an equal chance to all
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 Chances are not given, but taken, you know. No one gave my father a chance to start his own firm. As we do know, the private sector does everything better because they compete. In LA for instance, private companies build roads and charge people to use them, which saves them lots of time as congestion is nonexistent. If you get stuck in traffic, you get a refund. Win-win situation.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Anything to back up that claim? Charging people to use roads to me seems more like a short-sighted solution to the global warming problem and a way to take money from the poor and the working-class instead of raising taxes on the rich and the upper middle-class
I'd like a source for your claims about LA, too, please
As Eric Maskin, winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics, stated: "Competitive markets are ill-suited to the production or delivery of public goods"
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 Type in "John Stossel roads" here on YouTube. They have a neat example of a tunnel in Paris, privately built and maintained, which shortens the travel time from north to south from 45 to 18 minutes. Private beats government, deal with it.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Now the highway is privately run, very expensive to drive on, almost no one uses it, and the old highway is more crowded than ever and the amount of money lost due to delays, extra fuel costs, additional pollution, and lost productivity is huge
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 It's wrong to say that "almost nobody uses it". Check out the damn statistics and pictures of it - many drivers prefer to use it. Also, I spoke mainly of roads that had been built by PRIVATE FIRMS, for private use. Those are generally much faster, and much cheaper, than what the government has to offer. Profit makes perfect, it provides the incitement firms need to clear away traffic jams faster than if the government ran it.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 I have a hard time believing it would be good for the economy if all the roads were private. Transportation would be a mess, prices would soar and workers, companies and export/import would be badly hurt.
Most the roads you're talking about as being "private" are just government contracts being given to private construction companies.
Not to mention the fact that it wouldn't be profitable to build roads in a rural area where there is no traffic, so the country would suffer.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 No, most of them are not. Please try to use logic. The example in California was privately built, as was the one in Paris. The bottom line is that most of the roads could well enough be operated by corporations who would do a hell of a better job than the government. Also, we'd not have to pay for things we do not use.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 They are contracted by the government to build the roads and highways and sign on a Public-Private Partnership. Since profits are guaranteed and losses are socialized they can take whatever risks they want, knowing the taxpayers will foot the bill
It's not profitable to build a road in the middle of the country-side, therefore it is built publicly or a PPP is signed where all losses are guaranteed by the state
It's basically shifting the tax burden from the rich to the poor
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 As for healthcare, the private sector does it better as queues are shorter and the incentive to treat patients is greater as they earn more money for every person they treat. As opposed to Michael Moore's Sicko, try watching 20/20, the debate between Moore and John Stossel entitled "Whose body is it anyway"? Many Canadians fly to the US to get treatment, some of whom would've died waiting in line in Canada.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Private healthcare is not cheaper, the US spends 16% of its GDP on healthcare whereas Western europe spends 8%. The private hospitals themselves might be cheaper, as the new owners fire half the workforce and force the remaining workers to work twice as hard for less pay under threat of unemployment and make drastic cuts to the service.
Employees become worn out and sick and large control apparatuses are needed to inspect the entire healthcare system, which is expensive.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 Listen: they can't treat their employees like slaves, if they do not only would the unions go batshit, they would also leave. The lack of government bureaucracy is what pushes the price down, not this childish imagination of slave-labor you cherish.
And like I said, if the US spends 16% of its GDP on it, that's still spent by GOVERNMENT and not a valid argument against private healthcare.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 You have a naive belief in the private sector: first of all, the unemployed end up in poverty because the social insurance-systems, such as unemployment benefits, are at the poverty level - so they become desperate for a job and are willing to undercut eachother, and the private owners use that to play the unemployed off against the employed in order to create a Race to the Bottom and drive down wages, in other words, unions become weak and powerless.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 If they undercut each other, it's a part of the market economy. That is why the minimum wage should be abolished - it destroys the entry-level jobs young people like myself need to get into the workforce. Paradoxically, good employees are usually paid a lot more than the minimum wage, because the employer wants to keep them working for him. Why do you think unemployment is so high in ghettoes? Because the minimum wage makes young, uneducated people's services useless.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Supply and demand in the workforce won't work, the employer has a much greater power over the workers in such a situation and can easily play them off against one another in order to drive down wages and maintain cheap labour. Why do you think unions gained ground to begin with?
There's a high demand for engineers, so they can bargain for better wages, but regular workers in construction and cleaning, for example, are easily replacable and therefore need to cooperate.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 Of course they are easily replaceable, because it takes no education to become a janitor. However if they work well they're still more valuable to the company that your average hobo in the streets. The fact that they're easily replaceable means that inflation is kept down, at the price of slight unemployment. As we know, 0% unemployment invariably leads to inflation.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Yeah, and if supply and demand was followed the middle-class would be wiped out and the working-class would be living under 19th century conditions.
What right-wingers don't understand is that corporations invest based on expected profits, if demand is low because wages are low and insecurity is high, they will fire employees and push down wages, which leads to even less consumption as neither employed or unemployed consume because of poverty and terrible wages/conditions.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 As for inflation and unemployment, during the Golden Age(1951-1973), which was the social democratic, keynesian era, average global growth was at about 4.8% and unemployment in France and Britain was around 1.2% and 1.6%. Compare that to Washington Consensus(1981-2008), the era of neoliberalism, where average global growth was at around 3.2% and unemployment in France and Britain was at around 9.5% and 7.4%.
Global inflation was at around 3.9% during GA and 3.2% dyrung WC,
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 I am sorry, but...
the reason Sweden was doing so well was that it'd made profitable affairs with both Nazis and Allies during the war, and that they hadn't joined it in the first place. Also, despite their alleged distaste of the right-wing government, the reds did maintain a relatively low tax level until the 1970s and the rise of Palme. Also the fact that you seized the media and stuffed it with like-minded individuals did help a lot, you know...
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 I don't see how Nazis, Allies and Palme are relevant to the discussion at hand? It's not exclusively about Sweden, it's about the entire world, that's why it says Global inflation, and Global growth.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 It has got to do with the matter, since this is why Sweden was so far ahead of the others during the period 1945-1975. Then the tax raises killed off the economy. And the "löntagarfonder" pretty much was the last nail in the coffin for Swedish businesses, thankfully Bildt abolished them in 1991.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DrStrangebomb1993 So you have no arguments then. I'm not seeing anything that backs up your claims.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 And don't try to say that the Nobel Prize has any worth, they hand it out to anybody who parrots their beliefs. Gandhi received no peace prize despite decades of peaceful protests, Obama received it for lying about withdrawing from Iraq. Nice, huh?`
The Nobel Prize is a sham. Deal with it.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Who cares? Who said anything about the Nobel Prize?
How about you come with counter-arguments against what I posted instead of aggressive damnation and mindless blabbering? Either that or don't bother responding.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 You quoted a socialist laureate a few comments back. Are you really that oblivious to what you actually post?
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 As you can see, it was during the Social Democratic era that growth was at its highest, unemployment at its lowest, employment at its best and the gap between rich and poor at its smallest.
It was superior to the neoliberal era in all areas except for inflation, where there was no big difference.
The connection between employment and inflation is a fallacy, as I've already clarified.
The statistics come from the IMF, search for "2008-2009 Keynesian resurgence".
atosafi1 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Have you seen what highway privatization can do? About 14 years ago the Province of Ontario, after years of consultation, planning, and finally construction, built a highway to offload the traffic from the overcrowded, existing highway running through Toronto. The Conservative gov't of the day decided that they were going to drastically cut taxes but that would leave them with a deficit, so they sold off provincial assets including this highway (leased it out for 99 years).
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 It's also amusing how all socialist think the paycheck just disappears when government picks it up. The extra amount of bureaucracy makes costs soar. Cofiroute, the French company that builds and maintains private roads, is also working to extend the network in California. Think of the congestion tax we have in Stockholm. It's not more expensive than that, but in return you get a fast journey virtually free of accidents.
DrStrangebomb1993 2 months ago
@DrStrangebomb1993 Also, as I said before, roads and highways are too expensive to maintain without high prices and tariffs, so the poor have to foot the bill and the rich get away cheap. The only reason private corporations are so keen on taking over operations in public transport, mail delivery and so on is because Public-Private Partnerships are signed; Profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
We can't allow roads to go bankrupt, so we guarantee any losses made with our tax-money.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@Brdj010 Public transport is not a profitable business, the only reason so many private corporations are willing to take over operations is because a Public-Private Partnership is signed, where profits are privatized and losses are socialized.
That pretty much means these corporations can take any risks they want, knowing the citizens will foot the bill if they lose money.
If the private sector decided, public transport wouldn't exist outside City limits because rural areas are not profitable.
atosafi1 2 months ago
@atosafi1 i guess the American govornment hasn't spent trillions of dollars on programs to pass out welfare to those who don't work. Also, Detroit(The poster child of a socialist agenda in the 1970's) is totally booming with wealth after all that money the govornment put into it and all that govornment interference with capitalism hasn't put us trillions of dollars of debt - oh wait...
YourMindOnDrugz 3 months ago
@YourMindOnDrugz That was relevant - oh wait.
atosafi1 3 months ago
@atosafi1 It is relevant considering thats how european socialism works in america and has toppled America from being the best country in the world. Bailing out big corporate banks is lobbyism.
YourMindOnDrugz 3 months ago
@YourMindOnDrugz I don't see how bailing out big corporations is socialism. That's corporatism, which is a result of unfettered, unregulated free-market fundamentalism; Capitalism = Corporatism.
Socialism is regulating the economy well enough to prevent that these corporations need a bailout to begin with.
atosafi1 3 months ago
@atosafi1 Corporatism isn't is capitalism. Its lobbyism. Your contradicting yourself by saying by having a free market is bailing out big corporations. But a free-market is defined by not having ANY govornment intervention.(So no bailouts)
So how can a market be free? and have govornment intervention?
(I don't think you know what lobbyism is. Its basically legal bribery. Corporations can pay law makers to change laws, regulations, or urge them to do something)
YourMindOnDrugz 3 months ago
@YourMindOnDrugz Corporatism is a direct result of unfettered, deregulated, free-market capitalism. Because as Karl Popper said "If the government does not intervene and try to control the markets, other shady organisations, such as trusts, multi-national predators and political extremes, will." If you let the markets run amok, there is nothing stopping them from banding together to create monopolies, infiltrating government to pass favourable laws and crushing the middle- and working-class.
atosafi1 3 months ago
@atosafi1 /watch?v=KGPa5Ob-5Ps America is has been a capitalistic society with socialist ideals.
You keep skipping over the point that CORPORATIONS use LOBBYISM to control the GOVORNMENT.
They are regulating themselves! We already have those Multi-national crime cartels.
"Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes its laws.”
- Baron M.A. Rothschild
The Rothschild family Owns half of the worlds wealth and OWN the Federal Reserve, THEY control everything already.
YourMindOnDrugz 3 months ago
@YourMindOnDrugz You're rambling, verbal diarrhea.
Re-read my post and take off the tinfoil hat.
atosafi1 3 months ago
@atosafi1 You reek of ignorance, everything i said is true.
Educate yourself and take off the rose tinted glasses
YourMindOnDrugz 3 months ago
@YourMindOnDrugz It has nothing to do with what I wrote whatsoever.
atosafi1 3 months ago
@Suprahampton ..Well, you're almost there, It's the PEOPLE who pay .. Not the government. The government is WORKING for the people.
5iF3R 8 months ago
@Suprahampton Put simple,yes.
ReconVoyager 8 months ago
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porscheghcje 1 year ago
michael moore is a fat slob who looks like a pedophile.
thomast1985 1 year ago
michael moore has to be the dmbest person in the usa. he talks about how ggreat socialism is yet has his millions making treasonous inaccurate movies. he and hollywood elites dont want anyone else to have money so they get their socialist agenda going to keep most poor. damn him and them and the democraps!
thomast1985 1 year ago