I just noticed that Irina also does a flutz jump, just like Kwan often does. Maria was the only woman of the top three to do an actual LUTZ jump. I wish she was given more credit for that by the commentators.
@mlc2005 not just by the commentators but by the judges. Maria got no credit ever in technical scores for doing a truer lutz than Kwan and Slutskaya, and for a MUCH truer one than the horrendous ones like Hughes and Cohen who practically mule kicked from edge to edge to takeoff.
@russianskatingfan: I agree! Kwan and Slutskaya's lutz entries were still actually pretty nice, with the skating forward and then turning backwards right before the take off. Plus, they both flutzed only barely, whereas Hughes and Cohen... I don't think I ever saw either of them do an actual lutz, ever. I do think that, perhaps, the judges did give Maria credit for the perfect lutz in this short program (2000 worlds) b/c she got 5.9's from several judges. But usually they overlooked it.
@mlc2005 Maria was the defending World Champ so they were forced to give her respect when she did a great skate. Once she lost that title she became an afterthought in their minds again.
@beckerbombs and @mic2005 thank you so much for your posting comments - I had no idea about exactly why Maria Butyrskaya was so dis-liked by her own Federation, just that she was. Must have been so tough for her.
Have to say, in interviews, Irina Slutskaya was always gracious about Michelle Kwan's talent and vice versa
Yeah, Maria def. won the short here, no doubt about it. I think Irina did improve greatly over previous programs in terms of artistry. In fact, this is probably her most artistic program ever, particularly the feeling in the footwork. Maria had the best short, by far, though, and the judges agree... 7 judges to 2 put Maria in first.
I think she showed good artistry here. Peggy was right about her "feeling the music", especially on the footwork. Even her spiral sequence was very good, the way she went from backward to forward without putting her free leg down. I like her costume except for the long skirt. The light blue softens her image on the ice.
I HATE the costume that Irina wears here. Unfortunately this type of Costume (long but revealing skirt) became a regular for her at this time. Thank goodness that she got it right in Salt Lake and had pretty costumes in both programs (although all that season she had been using an ugly purple and green dress for her LP!).
Slutskaya had a better 3Flip than Kwan and a more difficult combination spin. Kwan had a better Spiral Sequence and much better transitions/choreography/inter pretation. I don't think Slutskaya deserved to place above her in this SP.
Get real, Maria was the clear winner over both Irina and Michelle in this short program, and only a biased Slutskaya or Kwan fan would deny this. If Maria had not screwed up her long program she would have defended her title.
Why dont you just shut up you stupid bitch. You know nothing about skating and yet pretend to be some defacto expert. No wonder you were banned from GoldenSkate and every other skating forum you have posted on, LOL! Such a retard.
Also, ants2876...wash the sand out of your vagina. Pretty sure I know far more about the sport than you and have skated at a much higher level than you ever will.
As for the rest - you are incorrect? There is only one board I post on and I still post there to this day.
ROTFL you posted on GoldenSkate under this exact username and were banned. I still post there to this day and we are all thrilled you are gone. You have skated to a higher level? In your dreams stupid bitch. Maybe the McDonalds Ice Parade or something, LOL!
You are incorrect. I have been posting there for years and still do.
Your command of the English language is staggering, btw. "In your dreams stupid bitch"? Wow, I haven't heard something so cutting since I was....12 years old.
Anyone who wants to go to GoldenSkate themselves can see you are lieing. There is a members list and the named Zuranthium there and underneath it "banned". People can also search your posts and see the last one wasnt for 3 years ago due to your being banned for your constant flaming and trolling. I would know since unlike you I still post there. Have a nice day and continue spamming youtube with your non existent joke excuse of knowledge of figure skating.
@ants2876 Again, you are incorrect (and I thought I already responded to this, why did Youtube say there was a new response here?). FYI, that account was banned for calling Robin Wagner a cunt...a statement which I'll stand by. You probably would too if you knew her. ;) Nevertheless, I post at GS frequently and have also enacted several changes within ISU to fix CoP. Look at the recent rule changes - they are exactly as I wrote them a year or more before being implemented. No coincidence.
@Zuranthium so you admit you have been banned from a skating forum for calling an Olympic Gold medalist coach a cunt. OK nice work, congrats. Have a nice day.
@ants2876 *I* wasn't banned. That's just why the account was banned, looking at the moderator logs of the forum. I do agree with the statement, though, and I'm not in favor of limiting free speech (seeing as that statement is an opinion and not libel). In fact, I persuaded the mod team to issue warnings rather than bannings and also slightly loosen the language that is allowed. By all means, continue telling yourself whatever makes you feel better, though.
Nice language people..really mature! In terms of the ACTUAL subject: skating, I disagree with you, Zuranthium, in that Kwan (who I regard as the greatest ever) still should have been 2nd had she hit the flip. Maria was on fire, and her short in 2000 was one of the few moments when a skater actually eclipsed Kwan artistically. Kwan's choice of music was, uncharacteristically, off (imo), and Maria's was lyrical and magical. I do consider this Kwan's weakest short.
You have to remember Irina also had a shaky landing though. If neither Michelle or Irina had a shaky landing the results would have been either:
1. Maria 2. Irina 3. Michelle
or
1. Irina, 2. Maria, 3. Michelle
Remember the short program is first and foremost about the technical elements quality and the artistry second, and Irina has the overall best technical elements of any women during her prime. That is why Irina almost always won the short when skated cleanly.
@beckerbombs : good points. Plus, the judges, imo, were always willing to over mark Irina artistically, so the fact that she actually skated a well-choreographed program would have put her over the top had she skated cleanly. However, Maria did skate last, and perfectly, so she might have still prevailed. But, as I've said before, Maria always had to work for everything and be perfect to get traction from the judges, which was a shame.
Yes this is true. Irina was overmarked artistically in general so as you said for a program that was actually pretty good choreography her marks were really be high if skated clean probably. As for the judging of Maria and Irina overall their careers that all comes down to the Russian federation. Irina came on the scene as a highly touted up and comer with strong technical abilities and pretty good consistency. They saw her as the better shot to be win big titles and potentially dominate.
Then on the other side Maria bombing at the 93 Worlds and costing Russian an Olympic spot tarnished her for good almost in the Russian federation eyes. She was already a late bloomer, coming on the international scene then at already 20. She wasnt a teen phenom around then like Bonaly, Chen or the overrated Baiul but was seen as showing promise for the future until that Worlds debacle changed everything it seemed. They then were already looking for others like Markova and young Slutskaya.
Basically had Maria gone to the 93 Worlds and placed top 10 and earned Russia 2 spots for the Olympics as she should have been able to do, her whole career might have been different. Irina came on the scene strongly at a very young age unlike Maria, was a junior phenom unlike Maria, and unlike Maria did everything right to be in the federations good graces from the start, and only faltering (98-99) once she was established and could be quickly forgiven.
Lastly with skaters like Chen and Kwan the federation may have felt it was a better bet to go with one who could outjump them like Irina, rather than another artistic skater like Maria.
I am not saying this was fair. In fact very unfair to Maria, already writing her off after 1 bad event and not understanding some mature later. All this shows the power of the Russian federation. If they decide Irina is their clear #1 then expect her to get generous treatement and Maria to have it rough.
@beckerbombs: Well said. I agree with you completely. In a way, that's what made Maria such a fan favorite is her underdog status. Everyone knew that she was shunned by her own country's federation, and yet kept persevering (and winning 6 Nationals). I think it was glorious when she was under enormous pressure @ 99 worlds and landed a 7 triple, flawless long. It really made everyone shut the hell up, which was cool.
It is no coincidence Maria won her World title in the year Irina was in a big slump and they were forced to consider Maria their #1. Then in 2000 with Irina coming back but Maria World Champion they split their support of both, but then after Maria lost her World title in 2000 (even though Irina also didnt win) it was all Irina again. They should have split the support for both anyway. That is the fair way to deal with having two top skaters. They did it in pairs and dance without problem.
Yes the Russian federation pretty much wanted Maria to just go away ever since the 93 Worlds catastrophe. They never forgave her for that. She fought all the odds her entire career, including her own federation. She is one of the strongest women in any sport. Very few wouldnt have given up.
Even at 15 she was told by people she would never amount to anything. Unlike Irina was was coddled and raved about in Russia from a young age.
Comes down to personal taste on the artistry but I thought Kwan's program was a little better. It had more nuance. Look at the way her steps match the music before the Spiral Sequence and how beautifully the footwork sequence reflects the music.
On technical merit Kwan should have been above Butyrskaya if her Flip had been performed cleanly. Kwan's Layback and Spiral Sequence were stronger than Butyrskaya's and there wasn't any other element that Butyrskaya executed better than Kwan.
Yes, it did cost her first place. I think she was actually planning to do a double loop after that lutz but changed it like she always does when the landing of the lutz is scratchy or "off".
I just noticed that Irina also does a flutz jump, just like Kwan often does. Maria was the only woman of the top three to do an actual LUTZ jump. I wish she was given more credit for that by the commentators.
mlc2005 8 months ago
@mlc2005 not just by the commentators but by the judges. Maria got no credit ever in technical scores for doing a truer lutz than Kwan and Slutskaya, and for a MUCH truer one than the horrendous ones like Hughes and Cohen who practically mule kicked from edge to edge to takeoff.
russianskatingfan 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan: I agree! Kwan and Slutskaya's lutz entries were still actually pretty nice, with the skating forward and then turning backwards right before the take off. Plus, they both flutzed only barely, whereas Hughes and Cohen... I don't think I ever saw either of them do an actual lutz, ever. I do think that, perhaps, the judges did give Maria credit for the perfect lutz in this short program (2000 worlds) b/c she got 5.9's from several judges. But usually they overlooked it.
mlc2005 4 months ago
@mlc2005 Maria was the defending World Champ so they were forced to give her respect when she did a great skate. Once she lost that title she became an afterthought in their minds again.
russianskatingfan 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan: True! Maria owned 1999, but I have to say that the free programs at these and 2001 Worlds belonged to no one but Kwan.
mlc2005 4 months ago
The Dick Bottom's comment about Irina's free leg in th lay-back il so untrou....
iceroby72 1 year ago
combining the elements with edges and speed was the name of the game back then. I miss that
Arinozian 1 year ago
Same music Elena Vitrichenko (UKR) used in Rhythmic Gymnastics for her ball routine.
Kevinsf 1 year ago
@beckerbombs and @mic2005 thank you so much for your posting comments - I had no idea about exactly why Maria Butyrskaya was so dis-liked by her own Federation, just that she was. Must have been so tough for her.
Have to say, in interviews, Irina Slutskaya was always gracious about Michelle Kwan's talent and vice versa
muscleboi4use 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The joke is you.
I post on GS all the time. In fact, an article I wrote was published on GoldenSkate 2 weeks ago. Zuranthium not my username there, though.
I can only laugh at your mention of trolling...that's exactly what you're doing. You never say anything of value.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Yeah, Maria def. won the short here, no doubt about it. I think Irina did improve greatly over previous programs in terms of artistry. In fact, this is probably her most artistic program ever, particularly the feeling in the footwork. Maria had the best short, by far, though, and the judges agree... 7 judges to 2 put Maria in first.
mlc2005 2 years ago
The best part of this program was the flying camel and the footwork.
desglacons 2 years ago
I think she showed good artistry here. Peggy was right about her "feeling the music", especially on the footwork. Even her spiral sequence was very good, the way she went from backward to forward without putting her free leg down. I like her costume except for the long skirt. The light blue softens her image on the ice.
dylanvalente 2 years ago
I HATE the costume that Irina wears here. Unfortunately this type of Costume (long but revealing skirt) became a regular for her at this time. Thank goodness that she got it right in Salt Lake and had pretty costumes in both programs (although all that season she had been using an ugly purple and green dress for her LP!).
MTVMANN 2 years ago
My all-time favourite short programme. Absolutely amazing!
lilic1 3 years ago 2
This was a great program for Irina. I think she had better presentation here than in other years. The speed on her spins is also really good.
dylanvalente 3 years ago 4
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Slutskaya had a better 3Flip than Kwan and a more difficult combination spin. Kwan had a better Spiral Sequence and much better transitions/choreography/inter pretation. I don't think Slutskaya deserved to place above her in this SP.
Zuranthium 3 years ago
Comment removed
Zuranthium 3 years ago
Get real, Maria was the clear winner over both Irina and Michelle in this short program, and only a biased Slutskaya or Kwan fan would deny this. If Maria had not screwed up her long program she would have defended her title.
beckerbombs 3 years ago 2
Comment removed
Zuranthium 3 years ago
I never said Maria didn't deserve to win the SP. I said Kwan deserved to place over Slutskaya.
Kwan would have deserved 1st if her Flip had been better, though.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Why dont you just shut up you stupid bitch. You know nothing about skating and yet pretend to be some defacto expert. No wonder you were banned from GoldenSkate and every other skating forum you have posted on, LOL! Such a retard.
ants2876 2 years ago
Also, ants2876...wash the sand out of your vagina. Pretty sure I know far more about the sport than you and have skated at a much higher level than you ever will.
As for the rest - you are incorrect? There is only one board I post on and I still post there to this day.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
ROTFL you posted on GoldenSkate under this exact username and were banned. I still post there to this day and we are all thrilled you are gone. You have skated to a higher level? In your dreams stupid bitch. Maybe the McDonalds Ice Parade or something, LOL!
ants2876 2 years ago
You are incorrect. I have been posting there for years and still do.
Your command of the English language is staggering, btw. "In your dreams stupid bitch"? Wow, I haven't heard something so cutting since I was....12 years old.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Anyone who wants to go to GoldenSkate themselves can see you are lieing. There is a members list and the named Zuranthium there and underneath it "banned". People can also search your posts and see the last one wasnt for 3 years ago due to your being banned for your constant flaming and trolling. I would know since unlike you I still post there. Have a nice day and continue spamming youtube with your non existent joke excuse of knowledge of figure skating.
ants2876 2 years ago
Comment removed
Zuranthium 2 years ago
@ants2876 Again, you are incorrect (and I thought I already responded to this, why did Youtube say there was a new response here?). FYI, that account was banned for calling Robin Wagner a cunt...a statement which I'll stand by. You probably would too if you knew her. ;) Nevertheless, I post at GS frequently and have also enacted several changes within ISU to fix CoP. Look at the recent rule changes - they are exactly as I wrote them a year or more before being implemented. No coincidence.
Zuranthium 1 year ago
@Zuranthium so you admit you have been banned from a skating forum for calling an Olympic Gold medalist coach a cunt. OK nice work, congrats. Have a nice day.
ants2876 1 year ago
Comment removed
Zuranthium 1 year ago
@ants2876 *I* wasn't banned. That's just why the account was banned, looking at the moderator logs of the forum. I do agree with the statement, though, and I'm not in favor of limiting free speech (seeing as that statement is an opinion and not libel). In fact, I persuaded the mod team to issue warnings rather than bannings and also slightly loosen the language that is allowed. By all means, continue telling yourself whatever makes you feel better, though.
Zuranthium 1 year ago
Nice language people..really mature! In terms of the ACTUAL subject: skating, I disagree with you, Zuranthium, in that Kwan (who I regard as the greatest ever) still should have been 2nd had she hit the flip. Maria was on fire, and her short in 2000 was one of the few moments when a skater actually eclipsed Kwan artistically. Kwan's choice of music was, uncharacteristically, off (imo), and Maria's was lyrical and magical. I do consider this Kwan's weakest short.
mlc2005 2 years ago
You have to remember Irina also had a shaky landing though. If neither Michelle or Irina had a shaky landing the results would have been either:
1. Maria 2. Irina 3. Michelle
or
1. Irina, 2. Maria, 3. Michelle
Remember the short program is first and foremost about the technical elements quality and the artistry second, and Irina has the overall best technical elements of any women during her prime. That is why Irina almost always won the short when skated cleanly.
beckerbombs 2 years ago 2
@beckerbombs : good points. Plus, the judges, imo, were always willing to over mark Irina artistically, so the fact that she actually skated a well-choreographed program would have put her over the top had she skated cleanly. However, Maria did skate last, and perfectly, so she might have still prevailed. But, as I've said before, Maria always had to work for everything and be perfect to get traction from the judges, which was a shame.
mlc2005 2 years ago
Yes this is true. Irina was overmarked artistically in general so as you said for a program that was actually pretty good choreography her marks were really be high if skated clean probably. As for the judging of Maria and Irina overall their careers that all comes down to the Russian federation. Irina came on the scene as a highly touted up and comer with strong technical abilities and pretty good consistency. They saw her as the better shot to be win big titles and potentially dominate.
beckerbombs 2 years ago
Then on the other side Maria bombing at the 93 Worlds and costing Russian an Olympic spot tarnished her for good almost in the Russian federation eyes. She was already a late bloomer, coming on the international scene then at already 20. She wasnt a teen phenom around then like Bonaly, Chen or the overrated Baiul but was seen as showing promise for the future until that Worlds debacle changed everything it seemed. They then were already looking for others like Markova and young Slutskaya.
beckerbombs 2 years ago
Basically had Maria gone to the 93 Worlds and placed top 10 and earned Russia 2 spots for the Olympics as she should have been able to do, her whole career might have been different. Irina came on the scene strongly at a very young age unlike Maria, was a junior phenom unlike Maria, and unlike Maria did everything right to be in the federations good graces from the start, and only faltering (98-99) once she was established and could be quickly forgiven.
beckerbombs 2 years ago
Lastly with skaters like Chen and Kwan the federation may have felt it was a better bet to go with one who could outjump them like Irina, rather than another artistic skater like Maria.
I am not saying this was fair. In fact very unfair to Maria, already writing her off after 1 bad event and not understanding some mature later. All this shows the power of the Russian federation. If they decide Irina is their clear #1 then expect her to get generous treatement and Maria to have it rough.
beckerbombs 2 years ago 2
@beckerbombs: Well said. I agree with you completely. In a way, that's what made Maria such a fan favorite is her underdog status. Everyone knew that she was shunned by her own country's federation, and yet kept persevering (and winning 6 Nationals). I think it was glorious when she was under enormous pressure @ 99 worlds and landed a 7 triple, flawless long. It really made everyone shut the hell up, which was cool.
mlc2005 2 years ago 3
It is no coincidence Maria won her World title in the year Irina was in a big slump and they were forced to consider Maria their #1. Then in 2000 with Irina coming back but Maria World Champion they split their support of both, but then after Maria lost her World title in 2000 (even though Irina also didnt win) it was all Irina again. They should have split the support for both anyway. That is the fair way to deal with having two top skaters. They did it in pairs and dance without problem.
beckerbombs 2 years ago
Yes the Russian federation pretty much wanted Maria to just go away ever since the 93 Worlds catastrophe. They never forgave her for that. She fought all the odds her entire career, including her own federation. She is one of the strongest women in any sport. Very few wouldnt have given up.
Even at 15 she was told by people she would never amount to anything. Unlike Irina was was coddled and raved about in Russia from a young age.
beckerbombs 2 years ago 2
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Comes down to personal taste on the artistry but I thought Kwan's program was a little better. It had more nuance. Look at the way her steps match the music before the Spiral Sequence and how beautifully the footwork sequence reflects the music.
On technical merit Kwan should have been above Butyrskaya if her Flip had been performed cleanly. Kwan's Layback and Spiral Sequence were stronger than Butyrskaya's and there wasn't any other element that Butyrskaya executed better than Kwan.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Comment removed
Zuranthium 2 years ago
That slightly off combination cost her 1st place to Maria's beautiful short program perhaps. Had she won the short she would have won gold.
tapecase72 4 years ago 7
Yes, it did cost her first place. I think she was actually planning to do a double loop after that lutz but changed it like she always does when the landing of the lutz is scratchy or "off".
GoSveta 4 years ago 7