Hello - I would like to thank Brother Andrew Richardson for taking the time to do this study. I would like to know where you meet, what congregation you attend, and can I get in contact with you? Please let me know. I am anxious to hear from you.
The only reason I would say these secondary issues are important is because if there is a possible way that a command could not be fulfilled then our understanding of the command may be flawed.
Until you have scripture showing approved examples of congregations that large, then you can't say that such is the case with this discussion. You have neither book, chapter, or verse. The Baptist will say the same thing about baptism. "What if there's no water around when someone wants to be baptized, and then they die before they get to it?"
Would you say that so long as there is one cup then it doesn't matter how many times you have to fill it during one assembly? Also, do you see this as a salvation issue? Thanks.
1. No, I wouldn't say that. 2. Paul told the Corinthians that whoever is to "eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Cor 11: 27) If you study the word "unworthily" you'll find it means "in an unworthy manner." This the Corinthians were doing by not keeping the ordinance Paul had given them. Also, I find, usually, when congregations cross the line to use individual cups, they cross the line in many aspects.
I'm not assuming anything. I know what the Lord commanded concerning the communion. It is you assuming that there was a congregations that large. It does not say it. Does it? If so, where? Its not up to me to disprove it, its not my problem. Why isn't it my problem? Because I cannot read anywhere, in any verse, where a congregation that size met to break bread. Why must I disprove a negative? Again, we MUST determine what the Lord commanded in the communion FIRST.
continued... we are not talking about whether these souls were added to one place or not. We're talking about whether to met together in that large of a capacity to break bread. You MUST, I say you MUST show where they did. You have not. I also ask again, where is your authority for multiple cups?
I want to say again that we are speaking of secondary issues. To determine the truth of the Communion, we must go to the source of the subject -- the communion itself. Once we have determined whether we must use one cup of not from those passages, we will NO LONGER need to discuss congregation, because we will already know what the Lord's will is pertaining the the communion.
I take it your referring to figures of speech again, right? Matthew tells us he "took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;" (26:27) There is no figure of speech being used in that verse. Please watch my entire speech, for this was the main thrust of it. I ask you, how many cups containing f.o.v. did he take? Did he give to the apostles that which he took with his hands?
I pray, then, that you find the truth, because I love you and care for you. Any of my comments are meant to help you on this quest. Since we read that Christ handed them a particular cup containing f.o.v. and commanded them to drink of it; and since we read that "they all drank of it ("it" being the cup by rules of grammar)" then we know what "divide it among yourselves" means, and what they understood it to mean. We must harmonize the scriptures. They passed it from one another.
We cannot rule out the possibility of congregations of that size, many of which exist today. It would be impossible for a congregation of several thousand to take the Lord's Supper with one cup, wouldn't it? Thus, the Lord would have commanded something that could not possibly be done in certain congregations, unless, as I asked you, you would suggest that these congregations be divided into smaller ones.
We certainly CAN rule it out if seeing that it was the Lord himself that instituted the Communion commanding all to drink out of one cup. (Mat 26:27) You MUST read scripture of congregations this large, which you have not. You need to understand this in your own mind. You are simply assuming such when you read of 3000 and 5000. (See other comments.) We SURELY know that since multiple congregations are approved, then multiple congs. are acceptable. Where's you authority for many cups.
If I offended you I apologize. My answer was not in the spirit of anger, or defense, but rather worded so that you might understand. I simply asked you which was your intention for asking, I did not accuse you of one or the other. The length of time makes no difference to the issue. In the Bible, we can read approved examples of multiple congregations. I don't know of any 3000 member congregation in Jerusalem meeting to break bread, not in the scriptures anyway.
also, what I do know, is what the Bible teaches concerning the Lord's Supper. Have you ever read in scripture of a congregation that large? I read several examples of congregations in homes.
@wherethebiblespeaks Let's see, in Acts 2 there were some 3,000 added to the number, then in chapter 4 there were 5,000 men added to them, then in chapter 5 we read that many men and women were added to their number. We have no reason to think that these people were not all together in Jerusalem, for it was for this cause that possessions were being sold in order to provide for those who had need who had come to Jerusalem, then stayed (Hence the problem of ch.6). So, yes, I do read of such.
Where are the congregations that large meeting together to observe the Lord's Supper? Nothing in those scriptures proves such. The 3000 in Jerusalem on Pentecost eventually went home, seeing that they came from "every nation under heaven." You may read of 5000 but that doesn't mean that 5000 met together to break bread, you must show where it says such. You read those numbers and assume they met together to break bread. "Lean not unto thine own understanding." (Prov 3:5)
Do you really seek how long it would take, or are you attempting to present a question that will show WHAT YOU THINK to be the error of my position? Let me ask you some questions instead. Which is correct, to change the word of God to keep the size of our congregation, or to change to the size of our congregation to keep the word of God? Again, which of the following do we have approved examples of in the Bible: Multiple Congregations or multiple communion cups in congregations?
@wherethebiblespeaks It is never correct to change the word of God, nor is it reasonable to conclude that the Lord would never account for a congregation of a large size, which would not possibly be able to take the Lord's Supper with one cup in one day; hence one act of worship alone would take more than the Lord's Day, making it not possible to observe all acts of worship as commanded on the first day of the week.
Yes, but once again, you need to understand that if this is a problem in your mind, you must read approves examples from scripture of that large of congregations, which you have not. (See notes elsewhere)
1. Faithful congregations would not have become so large that they couldn't keep the divine institutions in the first place, and you have not shown that such congregations of that size are in the bible (see other comments). Once again, we first need to determine what the communion passages teach, and then we'll know the truth of the congregations size. Seeing that multiple congregations existed in the Bible in approved examples. So, separating into multiple assemblies is acceptable.
Hello - I would like to thank Brother Andrew Richardson for taking the time to do this study. I would like to know where you meet, what congregation you attend, and can I get in contact with you? Please let me know. I am anxious to hear from you.
savinggrace4u2 1 year ago
@savinggrace4u2
This is Mark, right?
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
The only reason I would say these secondary issues are important is because if there is a possible way that a command could not be fulfilled then our understanding of the command may be flawed.
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
Until you have scripture showing approved examples of congregations that large, then you can't say that such is the case with this discussion. You have neither book, chapter, or verse. The Baptist will say the same thing about baptism. "What if there's no water around when someone wants to be baptized, and then they die before they get to it?"
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
Would you say that so long as there is one cup then it doesn't matter how many times you have to fill it during one assembly? Also, do you see this as a salvation issue? Thanks.
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
1. No, I wouldn't say that. 2. Paul told the Corinthians that whoever is to "eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Cor 11: 27) If you study the word "unworthily" you'll find it means "in an unworthy manner." This the Corinthians were doing by not keeping the ordinance Paul had given them. Also, I find, usually, when congregations cross the line to use individual cups, they cross the line in many aspects.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
Comment removed
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
I'm not assuming anything. I know what the Lord commanded concerning the communion. It is you assuming that there was a congregations that large. It does not say it. Does it? If so, where? Its not up to me to disprove it, its not my problem. Why isn't it my problem? Because I cannot read anywhere, in any verse, where a congregation that size met to break bread. Why must I disprove a negative? Again, we MUST determine what the Lord commanded in the communion FIRST.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@sugkrino
continued... we are not talking about whether these souls were added to one place or not. We're talking about whether to met together in that large of a capacity to break bread. You MUST, I say you MUST show where they did. You have not. I also ask again, where is your authority for multiple cups?
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@sugkrino
I want to say again that we are speaking of secondary issues. To determine the truth of the Communion, we must go to the source of the subject -- the communion itself. Once we have determined whether we must use one cup of not from those passages, we will NO LONGER need to discuss congregation, because we will already know what the Lord's will is pertaining the the communion.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
Comment removed
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
I take it your referring to figures of speech again, right? Matthew tells us he "took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;" (26:27) There is no figure of speech being used in that verse. Please watch my entire speech, for this was the main thrust of it. I ask you, how many cups containing f.o.v. did he take? Did he give to the apostles that which he took with his hands?
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
Comment removed
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
I pray, then, that you find the truth, because I love you and care for you. Any of my comments are meant to help you on this quest. Since we read that Christ handed them a particular cup containing f.o.v. and commanded them to drink of it; and since we read that "they all drank of it ("it" being the cup by rules of grammar)" then we know what "divide it among yourselves" means, and what they understood it to mean. We must harmonize the scriptures. They passed it from one another.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
We cannot rule out the possibility of congregations of that size, many of which exist today. It would be impossible for a congregation of several thousand to take the Lord's Supper with one cup, wouldn't it? Thus, the Lord would have commanded something that could not possibly be done in certain congregations, unless, as I asked you, you would suggest that these congregations be divided into smaller ones.
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
We certainly CAN rule it out if seeing that it was the Lord himself that instituted the Communion commanding all to drink out of one cup. (Mat 26:27) You MUST read scripture of congregations this large, which you have not. You need to understand this in your own mind. You are simply assuming such when you read of 3000 and 5000. (See other comments.) We SURELY know that since multiple congregations are approved, then multiple congs. are acceptable. Where's you authority for many cups.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
Comment removed
sugkrino 1 year ago
Comment removed
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
If I offended you I apologize. My answer was not in the spirit of anger, or defense, but rather worded so that you might understand. I simply asked you which was your intention for asking, I did not accuse you of one or the other. The length of time makes no difference to the issue. In the Bible, we can read approved examples of multiple congregations. I don't know of any 3000 member congregation in Jerusalem meeting to break bread, not in the scriptures anyway.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@sugkrino
also, what I do know, is what the Bible teaches concerning the Lord's Supper. Have you ever read in scripture of a congregation that large? I read several examples of congregations in homes.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@wherethebiblespeaks Let's see, in Acts 2 there were some 3,000 added to the number, then in chapter 4 there were 5,000 men added to them, then in chapter 5 we read that many men and women were added to their number. We have no reason to think that these people were not all together in Jerusalem, for it was for this cause that possessions were being sold in order to provide for those who had need who had come to Jerusalem, then stayed (Hence the problem of ch.6). So, yes, I do read of such.
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
Where are the congregations that large meeting together to observe the Lord's Supper? Nothing in those scriptures proves such. The 3000 in Jerusalem on Pentecost eventually went home, seeing that they came from "every nation under heaven." You may read of 5000 but that doesn't mean that 5000 met together to break bread, you must show where it says such. You read those numbers and assume they met together to break bread. "Lean not unto thine own understanding." (Prov 3:5)
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@sugkrino
By the way, what how would you answer my questions?
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
How long would it take a congregation of some 3,000+ to take the Lord's Supper with one cup being used?
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
Do you really seek how long it would take, or are you attempting to present a question that will show WHAT YOU THINK to be the error of my position? Let me ask you some questions instead. Which is correct, to change the word of God to keep the size of our congregation, or to change to the size of our congregation to keep the word of God? Again, which of the following do we have approved examples of in the Bible: Multiple Congregations or multiple communion cups in congregations?
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@wherethebiblespeaks It is never correct to change the word of God, nor is it reasonable to conclude that the Lord would never account for a congregation of a large size, which would not possibly be able to take the Lord's Supper with one cup in one day; hence one act of worship alone would take more than the Lord's Day, making it not possible to observe all acts of worship as commanded on the first day of the week.
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
Yes, but once again, you need to understand that if this is a problem in your mind, you must read approves examples from scripture of that large of congregations, which you have not. (See notes elsewhere)
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago
@wherethebiblespeaks Can you show divine example of congregations reducing their size for any purpose?
sugkrino 1 year ago
@sugkrino
1. Faithful congregations would not have become so large that they couldn't keep the divine institutions in the first place, and you have not shown that such congregations of that size are in the bible (see other comments). Once again, we first need to determine what the communion passages teach, and then we'll know the truth of the congregations size. Seeing that multiple congregations existed in the Bible in approved examples. So, separating into multiple assemblies is acceptable.
wherethebiblespeaks 1 year ago