Sir with all do respect... Take those nice melodies you say which are like bound to a million rules of harmonization... Anyone can write Music that way just by knowing the rules of harmonization... This is boundary less, completely free yet only limited to human sonic perception of 20hz to 20khz... our minds are evolving... our understanding of Music is evolving... humans are evolving everyday... some don't want to change while others be the change they want to see...
I think knowing a few well-known trumpet players who (may or may not) share your rather extraordinarily uninformed views doesn't necessarily mean you're in a position to tell us how 'easily' this kind of music could be written.
I'd say, it's pretty clear the effort, thought and extreme dedication that went into the writing of this music. And I'd say the result is pretty darned special. Not to mention the ultra-cleverness of its performers. Hurrah!
@hroche83 i'm looking forward to a day when performances of music of this level of complexity and multilayering are surpassing the scores by doing 'more' than what's on the page, rather than making art out of what the music causes the performer to do. ok, the potential to add more to this music is kind of limited, as there's enough to take care of as it is, however imagine these performers playing something like this from memory, or not having to conduct each other...
@perdixification But surely what can be 'added' will change over time. For my money, we're only just now starting to hear Ferneyhough 'performed' rather than 'battled through' (and I think the new ELISION disc is a real landmark in this regard).
I'm really excited about the prospect of hearing a performance of Disfix in twenty years time, when it's had the opportunity to digest, and performance practices of this music are starting to consolidate.
@robertdahm this 'brawl' (which it hasn't become) is considerably more intelligent than others i've encountered on youtube. i felt the need to comment as one lazy trumpeter's initial comment was deserving of further discussion. i appreciated the fact that he posed some questions rather than the usual "this is dumb" or to quote, "I just vomited all over my keyboard".
@perdixification Um, okay, but if lazytrumpeter was really interested in knowing more about this, or at least engaging with the problems posed by such music, rather than just discounting the value of it altogether, his/her initial posts would have been very different.
I'd be genuinely interested to know, though, what LT1 thinks is the difference between 'music' and 'sonic experimentation'. And also why LT1 thinks that the latter (if indeed it's different from the former) is of less value.
I've always wondered why is it that morons seem completely unable to resist the urge to hit 'Post a Text Comment' when they see something they don't like on YouTube.
If you don't like this music, that's really fine. Nobody's forcing you. But trying to impose your own (extraordinarily narrow) set of musical value hierarchies onto the music of others is beyond lazy. But maybe that's your thing.
There's a large and growing audience for this music. We won't be missing you terribly much.
complex argument, man. of course it's music: sonic events organised in time, parameters such as pitch, rhythm, timbre and tempo all very much controlled. it's clear from their performance that there's a great deal of communication going on in order to pull off the piece. if you'd bother to look up the composer and check out what he does, you'd realise that there is an immense amount of skill involved in the music that he writes.
I thought my comments would provoke some discussion! The main problem is that this topic is very subjective. Assessing the skill required to write this is also subjective. I did check out the composer before writing my comments. I studied music and have played professionally for over 30 years, around 150 concerts/year covering the whole spectrum of music. I have always been keen to promote contemporary music - my point was where do we draw the line between "music" and sound experiments?
so what's your point: this composer can't write music? or are you above giving it your attention? i'm not disputing your amount of experience, but isn't it a little arrogant to discount a composer just because they write music that you can't digest, or don't want to investigate further, or can't play? sorry, that shouldn't be a question. so what, we take all these evil modernist composers and shoot them so that instrumental music can be further demoted solely to the role of film music?
@perdixification I would never be so arrogant as to discount a composer or performer, and over the years have digested a vast amount of similar material. You don't value film music? All music has it's time and place. My point was that everyone has a different opinion as to where the line is drawn as to what is music and where it becomes something else. We obviously disagree on this, but nothing wrong with that.
@perdixification@perdixification Thanks for the interesting discussion. I think some of your comments are a little extreme, but thanks for keeping it polite.
"sonic events organised in time, parameters such as pitch, rhythm, timbre and tempo all very much controlled" do not always = music (e.g. a firework display can include all of these but I wouldn't classify it as music? But I understand the point you are trying to make.
@1Lazytrumpeter : some would go further than i, in saying that atmospheric noise is music, as did john cage. i prefer to think of music as purposeful and reactive sonic events, so yes, a firework display would appeal to me musically; it doesn't for you? just the sheer gestural weight of the different kinds of silence between explosions is enough, not to mention the varying range of frequency among all the 'noise'...
@perdixification I know some would go further, but I think you would agree that this is not the majority point of view. I'm not saying you are wrong - if it's music to you then fine - but to me music requires much more than just sonic events.
blip blop waaah! New music needs to push the boundaries, but is this really music? Or just experiments in sound? Is there any musical skill in writing this? Could get the same result by taking an old fountain pen, spray on a piece of manuscript paper then play! Can't anyone write a nice melody anymore?
@1Lazytrumpeter: "can't anyone write a nice melody anymore?" did you miss the last century of classical music composition? if the condition existed, that a great musical work had to have nice melodies, half of the masterworks that are taught in both theoretical and practical courses in schools and universities around the world would not get a mention. you're proposing that berio's sequenza for trumpet (which i'm sure you've played) is bad music because it doesn't have pretty melodies?
@1Lazytrumpeter: it's a weak argument to justify an inability to listen beyond the most immediate sonic layer of information. are you aware of the amazing trumpet players out there recording music that don't use "nice melodies"?
I consider my ability to listen well above average, and I consider myself very open minded to all music forms. I am very aware of the amazing trumpet players, and know many of them personally. I also know their private thoughts on this issue - and you would be surprised as to who they include! We feel it's our duty as musicians to push the boundaries - but composers also need to reflect more on what their duty is too - it's not only academic. (I think you missed my point re "nice melodies")
@1Lazytrumpeter : i'm happy for you, that you're all of those things. i don't think you expressed your point succinctly, with "can't anyone write a nice melody anymore?". if you mean, "can't composers write music for the purpose of entertainment?" (and I use the term 'entertainment' to imply the full range of music that immediately 'appeals'), then 'a nice melody' is an inadequate way to represent that kind of music.
@1Lazytrumpeter : furthermore, I think that if all composers were bound up in having or wanting to write music featuring "nice melodies" (i'm hoping you'll regret using the term), then the musical landscape would be incredibly bland and musicians would not be forced to push the boundaries on their instruments. decrying academic music as void is a waste of time as what will happen if there's no more research? music will end up being a vortex of uninteresting stylistic incest and derivation.
It is a great hall, I miss those best music experiences I had there.
trees1 1 year ago
You won't get away with this you know, young man!
SteveTheCart 1 year ago
Sir with all do respect... Take those nice melodies you say which are like bound to a million rules of harmonization... Anyone can write Music that way just by knowing the rules of harmonization... This is boundary less, completely free yet only limited to human sonic perception of 20hz to 20khz... our minds are evolving... our understanding of Music is evolving... humans are evolving everyday... some don't want to change while others be the change they want to see...
Sudharsanbluewaves 1 year ago
@Sudharsanbluewaves: check out the other video of Disfix on the elision channel....!!!!
perdixification 1 year ago
I think knowing a few well-known trumpet players who (may or may not) share your rather extraordinarily uninformed views doesn't necessarily mean you're in a position to tell us how 'easily' this kind of music could be written.
I'd say, it's pretty clear the effort, thought and extreme dedication that went into the writing of this music. And I'd say the result is pretty darned special. Not to mention the ultra-cleverness of its performers. Hurrah!
hroche83 1 year ago
@hroche83 i'm looking forward to a day when performances of music of this level of complexity and multilayering are surpassing the scores by doing 'more' than what's on the page, rather than making art out of what the music causes the performer to do. ok, the potential to add more to this music is kind of limited, as there's enough to take care of as it is, however imagine these performers playing something like this from memory, or not having to conduct each other...
perdixification 1 year ago
@perdixification But surely what can be 'added' will change over time. For my money, we're only just now starting to hear Ferneyhough 'performed' rather than 'battled through' (and I think the new ELISION disc is a real landmark in this regard).
I'm really excited about the prospect of hearing a performance of Disfix in twenty years time, when it's had the opportunity to digest, and performance practices of this music are starting to consolidate.
robertdahm 1 year ago
(sorry to lower the tone, btw - Youtube comment brawls of this sort just really annoy me)
robertdahm 1 year ago
@robertdahm this 'brawl' (which it hasn't become) is considerably more intelligent than others i've encountered on youtube. i felt the need to comment as one lazy trumpeter's initial comment was deserving of further discussion. i appreciated the fact that he posed some questions rather than the usual "this is dumb" or to quote, "I just vomited all over my keyboard".
perdixification 1 year ago
@perdixification Um, okay, but if lazytrumpeter was really interested in knowing more about this, or at least engaging with the problems posed by such music, rather than just discounting the value of it altogether, his/her initial posts would have been very different.
I'd be genuinely interested to know, though, what LT1 thinks is the difference between 'music' and 'sonic experimentation'. And also why LT1 thinks that the latter (if indeed it's different from the former) is of less value.
robertdahm 1 year ago
I've always wondered why is it that morons seem completely unable to resist the urge to hit 'Post a Text Comment' when they see something they don't like on YouTube.
If you don't like this music, that's really fine. Nobody's forcing you. But trying to impose your own (extraordinarily narrow) set of musical value hierarchies onto the music of others is beyond lazy. But maybe that's your thing.
There's a large and growing audience for this music. We won't be missing you terribly much.
robertdahm 1 year ago
complex argument, man. of course it's music: sonic events organised in time, parameters such as pitch, rhythm, timbre and tempo all very much controlled. it's clear from their performance that there's a great deal of communication going on in order to pull off the piece. if you'd bother to look up the composer and check out what he does, you'd realise that there is an immense amount of skill involved in the music that he writes.
perdixification 1 year ago
I thought my comments would provoke some discussion! The main problem is that this topic is very subjective. Assessing the skill required to write this is also subjective. I did check out the composer before writing my comments. I studied music and have played professionally for over 30 years, around 150 concerts/year covering the whole spectrum of music. I have always been keen to promote contemporary music - my point was where do we draw the line between "music" and sound experiments?
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
so what's your point: this composer can't write music? or are you above giving it your attention? i'm not disputing your amount of experience, but isn't it a little arrogant to discount a composer just because they write music that you can't digest, or don't want to investigate further, or can't play? sorry, that shouldn't be a question. so what, we take all these evil modernist composers and shoot them so that instrumental music can be further demoted solely to the role of film music?
perdixification 1 year ago
@perdixification I would never be so arrogant as to discount a composer or performer, and over the years have digested a vast amount of similar material. You don't value film music? All music has it's time and place. My point was that everyone has a different opinion as to where the line is drawn as to what is music and where it becomes something else. We obviously disagree on this, but nothing wrong with that.
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
@1Lazytrumpeter: check out the other video of Disfix on the elision channel....!!!!
perdixification 1 year ago
@perdixification @perdixification Thanks for the interesting discussion. I think some of your comments are a little extreme, but thanks for keeping it polite.
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
"sonic events organised in time, parameters such as pitch, rhythm, timbre and tempo all very much controlled" do not always = music (e.g. a firework display can include all of these but I wouldn't classify it as music? But I understand the point you are trying to make.
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
@1Lazytrumpeter : some would go further than i, in saying that atmospheric noise is music, as did john cage. i prefer to think of music as purposeful and reactive sonic events, so yes, a firework display would appeal to me musically; it doesn't for you? just the sheer gestural weight of the different kinds of silence between explosions is enough, not to mention the varying range of frequency among all the 'noise'...
perdixification 1 year ago
@perdixification I know some would go further, but I think you would agree that this is not the majority point of view. I'm not saying you are wrong - if it's music to you then fine - but to me music requires much more than just sonic events.
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
blip blop waaah! New music needs to push the boundaries, but is this really music? Or just experiments in sound? Is there any musical skill in writing this? Could get the same result by taking an old fountain pen, spray on a piece of manuscript paper then play! Can't anyone write a nice melody anymore?
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
@1Lazytrumpeter: "can't anyone write a nice melody anymore?" did you miss the last century of classical music composition? if the condition existed, that a great musical work had to have nice melodies, half of the masterworks that are taught in both theoretical and practical courses in schools and universities around the world would not get a mention. you're proposing that berio's sequenza for trumpet (which i'm sure you've played) is bad music because it doesn't have pretty melodies?
perdixification 1 year ago
@1Lazytrumpeter: it's a weak argument to justify an inability to listen beyond the most immediate sonic layer of information. are you aware of the amazing trumpet players out there recording music that don't use "nice melodies"?
perdixification 1 year ago
I consider my ability to listen well above average, and I consider myself very open minded to all music forms. I am very aware of the amazing trumpet players, and know many of them personally. I also know their private thoughts on this issue - and you would be surprised as to who they include! We feel it's our duty as musicians to push the boundaries - but composers also need to reflect more on what their duty is too - it's not only academic. (I think you missed my point re "nice melodies")
1Lazytrumpeter 1 year ago
@1Lazytrumpeter : i'm happy for you, that you're all of those things. i don't think you expressed your point succinctly, with "can't anyone write a nice melody anymore?". if you mean, "can't composers write music for the purpose of entertainment?" (and I use the term 'entertainment' to imply the full range of music that immediately 'appeals'), then 'a nice melody' is an inadequate way to represent that kind of music.
perdixification 1 year ago
@1Lazytrumpeter : furthermore, I think that if all composers were bound up in having or wanting to write music featuring "nice melodies" (i'm hoping you'll regret using the term), then the musical landscape would be incredibly bland and musicians would not be forced to push the boundaries on their instruments. decrying academic music as void is a waste of time as what will happen if there's no more research? music will end up being a vortex of uninteresting stylistic incest and derivation.
perdixification 1 year ago