@pebepebe1 the problem is that you advocate that people just listen and make up their minds on the basis of what they hear so they are honest, but you are dishonest, you want them to "agree with you", if they don't , you cut them out, which means you are cynical, misleading, and plain dishonest, that kind of behavior is so cynical that I have no words for that kind of viciousness yet, an example of the worst kind viciousness that I have in assuming that Yuja must know what what she is doing..
@fredericfranc "..the problem...........she is doing.." Wow-aside the 'fractured' syntax, I did not realize you had so much SELF-AWARENESS! Dishonesty. cynicism, misleading,viscousness--all I would add to that is bigotry and we have the whole fredericfranc recipe! YOU did not know what you were doing (just like poor dumb Yuja?); a truthful manifesto of yourself and your musicological motivators toward anything different from, and better than, you can conceive of or produce yourself! Thanks!!!!
Her training in China emphasized speed, and she never learned how to control tone-texture effects properly, moreover she has no overall unifying conception; so we get musical mixed messages: the cold-indifferent tone throughout, and those random-afterthought shots of sugar-sweetness in the rubato. The waltz, as a unified entity-dance never gets together with itself.
@fredericfranc "Her training in China....."! Your own refusal to play for us here puts in perspective your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! More pedantry. Oh, you have forgotten 6 years with Graffman--but you dismiss him I am sure because he 'teaches' Chinese pianists, LOL! (tho' you can admire his Prokofieff Sonata No.3?)
I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either...
@bloodgrss ...the 6 years with Graffman apparently could not "overcome" the effects of the earlier background or the " natural inclinations" (limitations?) in her case. In Yundi's case his training in Germany DID work. If Yuja went to Europe, instead of Curtis (which emphasizes "pure performance" rather than "broad musical background") would she now sound any different?
@fredericfranc More inaccurate and subjective drivel form on high! We get YOU don't like her play-but your pronouncements on what training worked or did not is amusingly thought -stuntingly subjective! And your assessment of Curtis is not only nonsensical; how would you--who was never there-- know? "Broad musical background--what in gods good earth is that supposed to mean??? You seem as funny when you try to 'reason' as you are when being confusedly crude! :-)
@bloodgrss If I wanted to be funny (but I am not going to try, because I have no sense of humor) I would say the broad etc., is what I got but Yuja did not, either in China, or at Curtis, but I know some people from Curtis, so I have some sense of what the place is like, but mostly Yuja seems to lack the broad etc., from the way she sounds, you can tell the past from the nature of the product in the present, the deduction, if you will, you will appreciate the elegance of my logic here...
wtf you are all critics here? is here actually someone who think he can perform better this piece? i dont think so,,thats why you are all commenting under her videos,,
@papcyrill ...the way you want to think is not whether WE, the BIG-TIME ASSHOLE CRITICS of Yuja can play better than her, but whether there are OTHER PEOPLE, already on the TUBE, who can do that...that is the way to "educate yourself" and to realize that her way of playing this waltz here is pretty dismal actually...
@fredericfranc What you have here is a pedant who wants to 'reason' you out of liking what you just heard!!! The fact that a million other performances may exist is always beside any point this 'Bechmesser' makes--for anyone can prefer one or the other as a SUBJECTIVE opinion. He posits that she plays it 'wrongly' and with "no-clue"--yet AS a pianist and teacher OF pianists refuses to demonstrate how it SHOULD be done?! That evasion is rather telling don't you think? :-)
@bloodgrss I think you wanted to send this one to papcyrill, not to me, I mean he would probably find the reading more refreshing, on balance, than me..
@fredericfranc I dont think that ppl who are commenting under her performance can play better than her,not only this piece but in general!!!As about the dismal part,,this is the way she interpret this score! This is the beauty of each high level pianist like her,,,each one interpret with personal perception!!! so educate your self as you said ,learn what is music ,especially classical music!!! You can not ditch YUGA ,who is one of the greatest pianist today.
@fredericfranc one thing is if you like it or not,and other ditching her ,and being full of negativity about her!! (i am not speaking personal about you,but some comments are out of reality)! Upload a video of you playing this piece ,and prove that you are one of youtubers who is better than her!! i am sure you dint have 5% of her skills and talent!!! she is dominating the piano world ,and it is obvious, HATERS always will be around
@papcyrill Like I keep telling others, in order to understand that and why Juja is a bad pianist, you have to listen a lot to what the other pianists on the YT are doing, you have to get away from Yuja...
@fredericfranc I understand why her Chopin might not be first rate (compared to Pollini, Argerich, Blehacz) and I am ambivalent about her Prokofiev as well. But this woman is a good pianist. Remarkable at times, in fact. Technically impeccable. Listen to the way she plays Bartok's 2nd concerto or Rach 2.
@MrElicottero ...I am trying to piss you off but with those concertos she appears to sound "hard-virtuosic", but what those concertos need above all is idiomatic playing conveying the "character" of the composer, and she does not do that, she plays them "cold-technical-generic" and people get the idea that "it is supposed to sound like that"...you want to check how Geza Anda does the Bartok, how Richter does the Rach...
@MrElicottero Well, there is no stiff tradition on how to do the Bartok-2 so people these days want to jump ahead of the pack and try crazy things. What do you think of Geza Anda doing it with Friscay in early 60's, and also Richter doing it? It is a Romantic concerto, really, and should be done "soft"?...
@fredericfranc cc: Oh yes--the Beckmesser is lecturing on musical appreciation again--letting us all know why we should not LIKE performances! If we do, then it is because we lack this pedants 'purity' and 'elite' understanding of music and pianism! I suffer for his students-as they must. But here you can see any 'acumen' he has is invalidated by disingenuous 'holier-than-thou" attitude's that simply hide a bigotry toward her and her 'training'-certainly at variance with his 'superior methods..
@fredericfranc Anda is very good, but I slightly prefer Pollini. He is just very restrained and precise, whatever he plays. And I had the opportunity of hearing him play the concerto in Berlin, Anda I could never hear live, seeing how he died before I was born. :-)
@MrElicottero well, I hope you are not acknowledging Anda just out of politeness, and certainly Pollini is precise...everybody on the Tube quotes like his Chopin etudes like what they try to follow...I guess he got his taste for precision from his famous teacher...I am almost sounding snide here, but I am not really trying, I have a natural gift for pissing people off without trying, just read the stuff below if you feel like...
@MrElicottero You sound so polite you must have done more than that. We in the U.S. are very rude people these days, politeness is so rare around here, that we can spot it a mile away, and appreciate it a lot, too...
@fredericfranc It's not working. :P I agree that her Bartok is mainly showing off her virtuosity, but I don't really mind that in this case. Because when people actually try to do more with Bartok many times it ends up being ridiculous. (I wish sometimes I could hear Pogorelić playing his 2nd concerto.)
@fredericfranc Your obsequiousness to all these 'god's' of the past does you some credit--tho' always, in your worship, they strangely seem to illustrate some musicological verity into the composers mind that YOU-in your superior omniscience and ability-hold dear!? Yet you REFUSE to play for our edification!!? Gosh! Your stentorian 'judgments' of 'right' or 'wrong' play puts me in mind of Sir Toby Belch's phrase: "Just because thou art virtuous, does not mean there will be NO cakes and ale!" :-)
@MrElicottero Oh yes--the Beckmesser is lecturing on musical appreciation again--letting us all know why we should not LIKE performances! If we do, then it is because we lack this pedants 'purity' and 'elite' understanding of music and pianism! I suffer for his students-as they must. But here you can see any 'acumen' he has is invalidated by disingenuous 'holier-than-thou" attitude's that simply hide a bigotry toward her and her 'training'-certainly at variance with his 'superior methods..
@papcyrill What you have here is a pedant who wants to 'reason' you out of liking what you just heard!!! The fact that a million other performances may exist is always beside any point this 'Beckmesser' makes--for anyone can prefer one or the other as a SUBJECTIVE opinion. He posits that she plays it 'wrongly' and with "no-clue"--yet AS a pianist and teacher OF pianists refuses to demonstrate how it SHOULD be done?! That evasion is rather telling don't you think? :-)
Questo è un valzer che non va né ballato né ascoltato, ma va "sentito" a la pianista (a mio parere tecnicamente preparatissima e interpretativamente ineguagliabile) ci riesce in maniera naturalissima, nonostante la "relativa" difficoltà del brano. Complimenti. Brava!
Guys - Gals, why the big fight over this performance? There are no recordings of Chopin playing this thing, all we got is the written music. But we do have recordings of legends, men young and old, prodigies and young women doing this waltz... and I've personally fallen in love with this rendition, rubato and all, and I have no problem believing Chopin would too.
@WJE37FCSM I like it too--the pedantry and pompous dislike below is delivered with such pretentious anger over poor talented Yuja it would be amusing if it did not show how bigoted toward her 'Chinese' training the one is and foolishly off-key the others hearing of it. It IS played beautifully--and captures well the mood quiet 'encore' should for a live audience. Recording it, it might be different--as we can be assured Chopin would have done as he said to students "play the way you feel." :-)
@allemande1685 Lacks "good taste and understanding"? Hmmm... 'Rubato' is ABOUT liberties with rhythm; obvious! The amount of 'stolen time' one likes is SUBJECTIVE--even Chopin famously told his students "play the way you feel'. But to say that Wang is "fractured and incoherent" is YOUR hearing of it--lucky, many of us find it sensitive and accomplished. It WOULD, tho' be interesting for you to NAME your "10 different" pianists--or was that just a 'clever' remark with out objective veracity?
@allemande1685 I sort of agree with your critic. OTOH, you are comparing her with musical giants. And I believe if she studies well she will get this sense of understanding with experience, what I called "maturation". And she doesn't do worse than most of today's young artists. That's why I don't dismiss her: instead of seeing only her defects, I see her potential, and I believe she has a lot (unlike Lang Lang). Hopefully, she can get better.
@allemande1685 Also, the first step between a mere student and an artist is expressing oneself and finding her own style. This is specially important for Asians, who often just tend to copy. So as a beginning artist, she is looking for her own style. Eventually her interpretation will get more terse, more unified. Or so I hope.
@InXLsisDeo I still think she demonstrates a lot of interpretive sensitivity here--I like it- among so many other fine or even great versions of a wonderful piece of music. and your right--she will rethink it and adapt to her musical viewpoints as time and tide runs apace! But she IS growing--and is thoughtful--and as much, she states, 'American' in values as Chinese-so we have much to look forward to. I like your balanced and calm assessments-All the best...
@allemande1685 If I run into a perceptive critic of Yuja, maybe I should be heard from, Mr. bloodgrss would be disappointed in me, otherwise. " Fractured and incoherent", "10 different pianists", gorgeous language, gorgeous formulations here...
@fredericfranc Beckmesser DID have his friends too! Your 'nonchalant' glee at this silly and non-musical assessment-which does not fool the 'truly' perceptive-still underlys the your same desperate and shrill 'pseudo--elite' idea of how this 'should be played"! Again--when can we expect-you being a pianist who teaches impressionable minds-your more 'pure' and 'correct' version for our comparison? Only fair to see if you are not "fractured and incoherent" or like "10 different pianists" too? :-)
@bloodgrss ...if I post my perf. "they" are going to say "he sounds like just ONE pianist, and an ASSHOLE pianist, too, but she sounds like TEN of them, WOW!"...
@fredericfranc Well--if that translates to "10" times your talent and musical sensitivity I think I just might believe you--But the A...hole might fit more its true.....
@fredericfranc This has grown wearisome, as I am sure you will agree-- 'nuff said. However, that whiff of "elitism-exclusiveness" you seem to imply might be the only reason she is lauded is, again, patronizing and amusing. Somehow-your negative view is 'purist' and 'objective'! There are so many wonderful pianists-past and present-we all have those we respond to and those we don't. Your dismissive comments are your OPINIONS-I have my OPINIONS-Curtis or Texas training aside...
@Thepeckinator I can tell that you are a stool by the crass nature of your comment. Hopefully someone will shovel you up and drop you on the nearest compost heap where you can be transformed into something useful.
I just wish, that sudently, by some event, we all become blind! Try to think about it for a minute? What will be your felling about the artist, her or his shape, color, dressing? Food? The thing of our remembering of light will be "Enlighting" Better sense, touch, and perhaps intelligence.
@pebepebe1 Yes-tho' it must be said Yuja IS conscious of how she appears on stage--that's simple marketing--but at her concerts-you can close your eyes and enjoy-and a new album due in March-no visuals to distract then--I look forward to it....
@Thepeckinator How nice you read all about this in your magazines-or the multiple "sites and 'chats'' I am sure you get your grove on with on-line! I am glad you have the release you seem to desperately need LOL! Heaven forbid any REAL woman gets near you----probably no fear of that. But you are well named.....:-))
Yuja Wang is a brilliantly skilled pianist-who at 25 continues to grow and blossom. There will always be detractors of the successful-and NO pianist is constantly at the top on any given day or every composer. But to deny her sensitivity and musicality is pure pomposity---and to pretentiously debate who is "best' an exercise of total subjectivity. Enjoy her playing and her dedication-and the music most of all-leave the pontificating to the 'elitist's' with an agenda...
@bloodgrss ...This is quite a blast. I am an elitist, maybe not quite in the sense you mean, but I have to be because of my job. Also, if I were not an elitist I would go insane, I figure. All these tricky motivations you attribute to me are just too elaborate. I simply listen to every detail I can pick up and think: "Is this faithful to what the composer meant?". I certainly ignore the "interests" of the audience and have a very purist, traditionalist attitude.
@fredericfranc Shall we be charitable and say your and pianistic 'verities' of thought SOUND "elitist"--and my definition is narrow- a person or persons who consider themselves superior.to others. And I was right! But that pomposity came a bit late-your critical judgments are already a bit "touched". The tip of your dismissive critical iceberg starts with "Is this faithful to what the composer meant?" Wow-how can one argue when your mere opinions are so omniscient!
@bloodgrss ...in your case I am not really interested in convincing you that Yuja is a fairly mediocre pianist, with musicians, you can't change their opinions, usually; but I am more interested in why you don't pick up what I pick up: that much of the time, in the interpretation-sensitive pieces she sounds bad. When she tries to do the Liszt sonata, or the Chopin Op. 61, she really falls flat in a fairly obvious way, but even in this waltz here she departs from the text in nasty ways
@fredericfranc I NEVER entertained ANY thought you would think otherwise than you do--your opinion is fossilized. But what I find interesting is your pianistic egocentricity is at such variance with so many prominent musicians and critics and not just me. I was AT her Carnegie Hall debut felt the Liszt--along with the Times, was 'dazzling and magisterial'.The Scriabin revelatory. But your ears are closed-agenda set.What 'falls flat' is your opinion and pose as a 'purist'.
@fredericfranc Wow- I have a final thought--perhaps YOU can instruct us! You seem to like to lecture and pontificate here from superior, elite height.So, why not post videos of YOU playing the Liszt Sonata and Chopin Op. 61?! Then we can hear them played 'correctly' and with your direct line to what the composers meant that poor little Yuja missed! Equally. of course, WE will be able to judge for ourselves what or who IS mediocre in piano playing! When shall we hear you? :-))
@bloodgrss ...there are many recordings-videos of, let us say, the Liszt sonata on the YT, and some impress me more than others, or even confuse me as to what is going on, but only Yuja's, among " the reasonably well known" pianists' recordings, makes me think that she "has no clue" as to what she is doing. What is it about THIS ONE pianist that brings out my narrowmindedness and the pontificating instinct that NO OTHER pianist here can manage to do? My racism?, bigotry?,sexism?...
@bloodgrss ...because there are so many recordings here of the Liszt and the Ch. Op.61 that do the trick of being better than Yuja's in fairly obvious ways, for me to knock myself out trying to come up with more of the acceptable recordings of these items, when there are enough of these here already, THAT would be superfluous to the argument here...
@fredericfranc Wagner used to enjoy playing the overture to Der Meistersinger in a way an academic of the day would have harmonized it 'properly"--am I getting the idea you will NOT be gracing YT for our perusal and comparison your own 'correct' and 'pianistically enlightening' versions of what you criticize Yuja as playing with "no clue"!? It occurs to me I was wrong to accuse you of being narrowly 'elitist'! I think the proper word that comes to mind now is 'pedantic'....
@bloodgrss ...all these other versions do something, except Yuja's, If I respond this way, am I all that "pedantic" and "academic"? Is my characteristically crude "Texas" style of so called "commenting" all that "academic"? Maybe, as a fellow-alum, you are too much "into" Yuja? Remember that in the classical music area, it is the music that is supposed to matter, not the performer...a classic "pontificating" turn from fredericfranc here...her "Yuja-ness" distracts "us" from the music
@fredericfranc No-actually, it's pretty evident "her Yuja-ness" distracts and troubles YOU! For the majority of us, 'alums'-conductors she has played for-musicians who have worked and played with her- the 'ignorant' public here and at concerts your elite, 'purist' taste transcends- we find the music with Yuja just fine! You don't like her "musicality"--I defend it. OK. But to call her a mediocre pianist IS just plain pedantic,and yes-perhaps a little Texas crude?
"Yuja is interpretively challenged...sort of obvious that she is, you don't have to be the New York Times music critic to hear that." Have you yet actually READ the review TOMMASINI wrote? I kind of think not-it might just disturb you pianistic soul-not the best reference you could have made. But a telling indictment of your rather narrow view of her. However-he may not be a pianist--and we know you think that may give us very strange notions (i.e. not yours).
@bloodgrss ...and have always liked their work, and also met some of the "grad" singers. So I do "appreciate" the work of, at least, SOME of your alumni...Curtis is, of course, a kind of superexclusivist super-Harvard of American music, as the list of the grads shows...
@fredericfranc Yes-we have many fine grads-I am a modestly achieved one.That is totally beside the point.Your attacks on Wang's 'pianism' and interpretive ineptitude are vehement, and if you DID read the NYT review of her Carnegie debut it must have given you fits. She IS a 'talent'-to belittle her abilities pure pomposity. Who claims to be the best? We all have our choices. But-sorry-your "academically' 'elitist' and 'pure' views of her are simply foolish. Your right to be that..
@bloodgrss ...you are right in the generalization that I largely reject her as a serious artist. All of her attempts at Prokofiev don't work, she sounds like she is trying to put out music for a video-game soundtrack. She has one reasonably neat concertante effort here with the Mendelssohn concerto. The NYT reviews gave me not so much fits, as read creepy. One reviewer (at least not Tomasini) devoted almost as much space to her dress/hairdo as to her music. Reviewers have to live too.
@fredericfrancThe attempts don't work for YOU-what a surprise! The video game crack seems-like several of your ideas-to be nonsensical. Justin Bieber/youth culture concerns seem to color your critical acumen! Yuja is smart enough to wear what she wears-clever as a fox. But most reviewers go beyond that to praise her talent and achievement-you seem not to be able to. For your ears-their praise of her pianism remains unacknowledged-and must sound creepy..
@fredericfranc How generous you approve her Mendelssohn-not bad for a mediocre talent! But I must now add Prokofieff to our list of videos of your playing for our edification (if not pleasure) --you ARE a pianist? One with strong views and insight, by your own admission, into these composers 'intentions'? I expect the YT community would be grateful for your showing us how to play Sergei in the opposite from the "World of Warcraft" way--when shall you enlighten us?
@bloodgrss ...what is peculiar about this exchange is that you reveal almost nothing about how you think. You treat Yuja like a family member whom I have inexcusably insulted-violated and you try to punch me out as punishment. Is Yuja the best pianist on the YT? Does she play anything unacceptably? Does she have any deficiencies as an artist? Are these stupid questions to ask? I really don't know how you would answer them. What do you think of Lang Lang?..questions like that..
@fredericfranc My balanced feelings on Yuja or other pianists--this YT format and your own predisposed negative opinion make that superfluous. I have been clear on my admiration of her overall playing and musicality-that is not a blanket approval of all she does,particularly a young artist-tho' 18 years of study and practice. But,"mediocre-interpretatively challenged-no clue"--these are YOUR blanket dismissals-suffice to say I find those assessments wanting in sense and validity..
@fredericfranc My thinking--I applaud her sensitive playing of this--you disapprove and expand it to a indictment of her 'pianistic' ability (and--of the audience's 'purist' incompetence for applauding it.) The funny thing, Chopin never shied from 'liberty' off the tempo in the score--Berlioz and Mendelssohn claimed he simply could not play in strict time. So who's to say WHAT is 'correct'? This--and the best of her Prokofieff is musical and satisfying-sure, among many others.
@bloodgrss ..I hope this does not make the wrong impression, but I don't want get started on another round of excitement discussing the chopinesque rubato...and since I am a Prokofievian piano maniac, getting started on that would tend to propel the "discussion" here into even more extreme verbal badlands than so far...
@fredericfranc Indeed! And, tho' I can 'play' the piano, I am FAR from being a 'pianist', so any discussion of Prokofievian or Chopinesque interpretation would inevitability be colored by, if I may say politely, your rather "high-pitched" attitude that non-pianists have strange and therefore somewhat invalid notions of keyboard style! Continue to enjoy and advocate for your 'enthusiasms' and artists-as I will!
"Put all your soul into it, play the way you feel!" Chopin.....
This "bloodgrss" is on the payroll for Yuja, goes around posting lavish comments and harasses and attacks those who are not complimentary! He/she/it could probably get away with it if it was not so obvious.
There is nothing I have heard from Yuja that is not more than purely mechanical, with zero musicality. Further her technique is well short of brilliant.
The only explanation I can come up is she is pushed as the female Lang Lang by DG - UGH!!!
@Bret6464 Wow-you seem to want to masquerade as a "reasonable' and "balanced' personality here-how predictable! Actually-despite our severe 'debate-this guy only a smidgen had to resort to crudity-but.indeed, perhaps you will find him a kindred soul. Not sure,if he bothers to investigate-whether he will respond to your particular blend of bigotry and foulness that obfuscates your opinions-at least he can make intelligent argument of his views-and actually IS a musician-unlike...:-))
@Bret6464 Yuja is the best advertisement against herself you can get, her playing makes for such a terrific argument that one wants to concentrate on the music ONLY and EVER, nothing else matters in the classical area. What does Gary Graffman himself, who is still at Curtis, think of these two dubious propositions, LL and Yuja, that he was instrumental in unleashing upon the unsuspecting us, and the innocents of the YT????
@fredericfranc I knew YOU would reappear-prodded 'back to life' by this paranoid low-life. But I have dealt with your envy and dismissiveness of a fine pianist already. You DO share with my 'pal' a fraudulent, boorish pose of superior-how did you put it-yes-'purity'! Omniscience opinion untainted by popular acclaim! With YOU tho', I still enjoy the FACT that, apparently, it DOES take a New York Times critic-to coolly point out Yuja's art over your self-serving pedantic whine.:-))
@bloodgrss Presumably I should be thrilled, hereby. My "pose" is "opinion untainted by popular acclaim", certainly, it is my job to have that "pose", my paychecks are literally justified only by maintaining such a "pose". The New York critics did knock Yuja's "work", but in a rather oblique way, because she is a "star", they can't afford to rock the boat...keep in mind that everyone I know in the piano business rejects Yuja, I can't disregard THAT, can I?...
@fredericfranc One is forced to observe-who do you really know in the "piano" business!? We have established, not of the most 'elite' conservatories.It would be news to many of the musicians I know--including (if I may name drop to so 'pure' and musicologically omnipotent a personality as you posit to us) Lynn Harrell, Gary Graffman, or MTT. Your opinion is yours-lets agree it matters little anonymous 'fans' of it behind..
@bloodgrss If you read Tomasini between the lines, in terms of what he can afford to say, he is quite dissmissive of her Liszt. The West coast people, again very cautiously, point to the fact that all she can offer in her Prok. concertos is speed, "orchestra can barely keep up", etc. These reviewers can't call a spade a spade here, they are a part of the music business. The likes of MTT "work" with her, she is good for business, is all...
@fredericfranc You often try to demonstrate a sort of 'psychic insight into what critics or musicians actually think 'between the lines' or in their innermost secret brain! Usually, by an amazing coincidence, it helps to readjust their thought or words to a position suspiciously close to your own! Add your contempt-understandable, since I am sure you have been burned by it-of critics as corrupted by extra-musical considerations-and we have a complete portrait......
@fredericfranc ...of a kind of self centered Cloud-Cookoo-Land your musical soul flys in. YES! ALL these critic's and musicians, say, MTT, prostitute their integrity and intelligence simply to be with and praise Yuja! Must be the short dresses (tho' in MTT'S case you better find a different motivation) and DG contract! (oh..those DG wine and cheese parties!) So nonsensical and idiotically pompous-I would think you were joking. No-sadly-it again highlights your pedantry..:-)
@fredericfranc And, in your new relationship with Bret6464, you seem to be sharing "factually challenged" fluids as well."That Ms. Wang played the Liszt work with such technical authority was no surprise. I have heard other accounts that better conveyed the ingenious, if elusive, design of this 30-minute multi-sectional, single-movement score. But Ms. Wang’s magisterial and dazzling performance made the most of every moment." How does one depict that as "dismissive'?!! :-))
@bloodgrss No--check that!! How does one depict that as "QUITE dismissive"?! LOL !Semantic gymnastics, psychic insight-or simply your prejudice showing again? Certainly, NOT truthful. Just sayin.... :-))
@bloodgrss Nobody is forcing you to do anything but to shut up! Enough drivel from you, get off Yuja's payroll, do something constructive with yourself!
Stop harassing people who state Yuja's pianism is wanting badly - she's nothing more than a gimmick without an ounce of musicality in her playing!
Now be a good little boy - whatever you are, and go away, you are a nuisance! :-)
@Bret6464 (I am glad to be a nuisance to such a distinguished wit and sound personality as you!) :-)) Your baby tantrums and impotent 'critical' 'acumen' about her pianism won't affect her career or the positive opinion of the majority of the public--YT'er-and musicians and critics who thoughtful people can actually RESPECT! That must make the phloem stick in your throat little man-no wonder I have always thought someone should burp you...:-))
@fredericfranc The NYT review you somewhat typically misrepresent-it's quibbles were few- not even close to the "interpretatively challenged, mediocre, and no clue" tag you have the temerity to tag her with. Just sayin...
@fredericfranc I have no problems with honest opinions. The problem is scumbags like "bloodgrss", so obviously on Yuja's payroll, who harass and attack people in an attempt to censure!
Scum like "bloodgrss" do NOT belong - let's get him banned from YT, from google, from civil society!
I cringe listening to LL!! About Yuja, she is so bad that it is hard to come up with the words. Consider both are from the PRC and the PRC CD market is the largest - what else is there?
@Bret6464 What I don't really get why Yuja and LL "go over" in the West? LL being named one of the "top most influential..." etc. by Time mag., what is going on here? Note that Yundi Li who is a noticeably better artist than these two, is not doing anywhere near as well in the "public adulation" thing, but Yundi is Chinese too...
@fredericfranc LL and Yuja's "fame" in the West is hot air - you can't look to Time, they are no longer relevent.
Reason why LL and Yuja get the exposure is because the record label DG finances and promotes. Only Chinese from the PRC (Red China) have ben signed to contracts, the PRC CD market is huge and growing. LL's all grimaces and contortions. Yuja's claim to fame is her short skirts! That's all you get - gimmicks and bad pianists. Yundi Li is vastly superior.
@Bret6464 I largely agree with you about the "quality" of these people, but why is DG throwing all this support? I don't understand their reasoning, unless you mean they are after the revenues from sales in mainland China. Yundi Li is from mainland China too, why doe he not get more record-label backing?, he combines considerable real quality with considerable "platform visual appeal"...
@fredericfranc Classical market is dead in the US - iPads have taken over. The markets are Europe/Russia/Asia, biggest by far the PRC. All the classical record co's are European. You get Chinese performers from the PRC and Europeans/Russians. Concerts are run by labels, so we get LL and Yuja at all the American and European venues :-((
Yundi Li does not do concerti (Rach, Chopin.. ) has recorded great Chopin - in the tradition of Rubinstein. Do not know why he does not tour.
@Bret6464 I read Yuja concert reviews from NYT, also LATimes, SFChrle, very creepy reading. Yuja "lives" in NYC, Yundi in HK, something weird about this. I read the Wiki-dia articles on LL (also Yuja), very creepy, incredible reading, LL is involved in all this stuff all over the place, invited to the WH(!!??). What is going on? Should you have the inclination and a chance to read the LL article, should you have any comments, I certainly would be interested...
@fredericfranc Saw the LATimes review on Yuja, heard about her from friends who went to her LA concert - and walked out :-)) The review and comments were all about the super short skirt, more than creepy. Her claim to fame is a YT video that got over 1M views (THE "Bumblebee" - a stunt) Have zero willingness to read anything about LL or Yuja, or to see either perform - WH invitations? An invite would be a gesture to improve relations between the US and the PRC, they own us :-).
@Bret6464 I certainly understand your unwillingness, etc. I am mostly proposing this out of my "intellectual-academic-analytic" impulses. LL and Yuja are some kind of "cultural phenomena of our time". The way the reviews of the work of such "peculiar artists" (say the Tomasini job on her Carnegie Hall thing) get written, or what the Wiki-dia articles say they "do", including extracurricuarly, can be seen as lending some insight into "our times" (Chopin's "Notre Temps", a joke?)...
@fredericfranc You capture both LL and Yuja perfectly - it's a joke! In my opinion, those two are the latest iteration on the process of "dumbing down America" that has been ungoing. Yuja's "fame" has much in common with the Kardashians. In her Carnegie Hall gig, even with a program that included many lesser-known and rarely performed Scriabin pieces, she showed no musicality, nada, zip!
@Bret6464 What I was driving at in suggesting that you read and comment on some of that stuff, was, do you think Yuja and LL, in their approach to "interpreting" piano music suggest a trend of trying to fuse the classsical and the pop? They try to offer a "classical-lite", or "fast-food" versions of the classics? Is this thing likely to catch on? Does it represent a "clear and present danger" to the very concept of what classical music is and how it "exists in the world"?...
@fredericfranc I have read this 'critical' love fest between you two nimrod's with ROTFL! I am GLAD you have found each other--at least one other person to vent your platitudinous bile and pretentious, precious pomposities to! Can achieve World Peace together--or--at the least-get a room?!
It puts me in mind of an Aesop fable "The Ass and his Purchaser"! I recommend it's moral as an apt description of the amusing anti-Yuja braying displayed here by you two "worthies" :-))
@fredericfranc OH OH - Watch out :-)) The loonies are out of the asylum led by this scum "bloodgrss"!
Your premise is interesting, that LL and Yuja are marketed as "classical-lite" phenoms, perhaps. It would be closer to the mark that both play to their limits on piano, hence you get the LL histrionics, and Yuja's gimmick with the short-short skirts.
I don't know anyone who does not cringe listening to LL and Yuja, their Rach performances are an abomination.
@Bret6464 If I had legs like that I would be wearing skirts like that too, with legs like that on display the music actually sounds better, she ends up getting better reviews, in a technical sense it is not a gimmick, perhaps..
@fredericfranc :-)) Yes, why not? Have been discussing LL and Yuja with some classical pianists who have done major competitions, they all throw up their hands as to why LL and Yuja. LL is now with Sony, not DG, and consensus is that the push from DG solely reflect that they are both from the PRC - that is what sells. No other pianists, particularly those from Taiwan, Japan and Korea can be marketed into the PRC, that's verboten based on politics. So we get LL and Yuja :-((
@Bret6464 Yes, sir...but I still don't understand what is happening to Yundi? Why is he not promoted better, he is from PRC, why does he live in HK, and not NYC, like Yuja?
@fredericfranc I am not sure about Yundi, why he is not more active. There were some reviews of some of his concerts that were not optimum. He did win the Chopin - deservedly - at a very young age, recorded with DG, did some tours. Many artists undergo stages in their careers, his relative inactivity may be self-imposed. I hope he returns and performs as great as he did early on :-)
@Bret6464 I appreciate your various comments clearly reflecting musical good sense. If you run into any new ideas or blogs relating to the topics we got into here, please bring them to my attention. If you have not seen it, I recommend the Isaac Stern doc film about his musical trip to China some years back. I think it does have some bearing on the LL and Yuja "mystery" today, and maybe even on Yundi.
@fredericfranc " I appreciate your various comments clearly reflecting musical good sense."!!! I just HAD to post one more observation--I had missed this last love post to my Bretty. We actually laughed out-loud. What is so unintentionally funny about your statement is how obvious "musical good sense' is defined by how closely it aligns with YOUR thinking! Add to, opposed by people of importance, you psychically read "between the lines" to dredge up that they really AGREE with your views-ROTFL!
@bloodgrss You are getting it all wrong. If you actually bothered to read what each one of us wrote and thought about it, you would realize that on nearly all the points I was interested in, fredericfranc and Bret6464 DISAGREE. But reading and THINKING about what you read is not your way. So your way is missing things, and not getting the point. No wonder you can't interpret the reviews properly. This "good sense" thing is how he states his points, something you don't have, right?
@fredericfranc " But reading and THINKING about what you read is not your way. " You took the words right out of my mouth! Actually, there ain't much disagreement to read--but you have demonstrated a remarkable ability to re-interpret what you and others have said and written--even to grossly misrepresent an NYT review! My 'point' on Yuja's ability and talent is pretty clearly stated, yours is one long obsessively unsubstantiated, biased and pretentious harangue...
@bloodgrss "community college"- nightschool type deal. Betwee you and me, I don't have much of a shot at this Bret guy, but from the way you talk, you are a flaming faggot, maybe I am one too, we gotta cut all this stupid shit about Yuja, and cut to the chase here, get something going. This is Texas, I watch horses do it, I take it from there, do it with the orchestral players all the time. I figure you need a pianist to throw it into you to straighten you out on Yuja...
@fredericfranc I wonder what you think of "RACHMANINOFF PLAYS Chopin Waltz, Op. 64, No. 2 in C-Sharp Minor (1989 Remastered) ". Beware though, it's probably the most horribly distorted Chopin you'll ever hear.
As for Yuja Wang, she does a good job here. She still needs a lot of maturation, but with her skills, she has the capacity to become a great player. Not every player has become great from the start in the past. Maturation is needed to the reach a true understanding of music.
@InXLsisDeo To try to make it short Rach sounded pretty good to me, great handling of the rubato, obviously, something Yuja can't do. She has been playing the piano by now for God knows how long. If she sounds this bad at 25, after studying with Graffman at Curtis, lots of concerts all over the place, several recordings, etc., I doubt she is going to get any better with "maturation", but, God knows, miracles sometimes happen...
@fredericfranc cc: Beckmesser- "As SHOULD be obvious, 'rubato' is a matter of individual, SUBJECTIVE taste! She IS maturing-and HAS; but the mad bigotry of my obsessive 'friend' below is not only the pedantic pomposity of his pose as a 'superior' omniscient into proper rubato in Chopin, but continues the biased impertinence to decry her much talent at all! The Rach version is as wildly at variance with the score as anything she does--and, for me, an overly odd and ineffective one. Heresy!" :-)
@fredericfranc We still await YOUR performance of this, enlightening us with its beauty, 'purity', and 'correct' rubato! I am sure poor Yuja would be edified and grateful! You DO claim to be a pianist?? Your evasions are rather telling otherwise--and I still eagerly await the names of famous and accomplished ex-students your omniscient and 'pure' system has graced us with-when can we expect this? :-))
@InXLsisDeo As SHOULD be obvious, 'rubato' becomes a matter of individual SUBJECTIVE taste. She IS maturing-and has; but the mad bigotry of my obsessive 'friend' below is not just pedantic pomposity in his pose of a 'superior' omniscience into proper rubato in Chopin, but continues the biased impertinence to decry her much talent at all! The Rach version is as wildly at variance with the score as anything she does--and, for me, an overly odd and ineffective one. Heresy!
@InXLsisDeoBut fredericfranc teaches piano at a community college level (nothing wrong with that) and has shown a envy toward fame, 'elevated' academies, and a neat Chinese bigotry! As the great critic Newman once wrote," the academic mind, which cannot comprehend anything that is different from, and better than, anything it can produce itself". He has been at great pains to let me know his is a 'pianist'- Yet he refuses to post his own 'superior' and 'correct' play of this! Odd, isn't it? :-))
@InXLsisDeo "Distorting" Chopin is great "fun", it is done, and has been done in the past 2 centuries a lot by a lot of people. Miss Argerich, and, even more so, the "great" Horowitz himself were major distorters. At least some of the time I was not amused by some of that. But the issue here is that Yuja is a lousy artist, no musical judgement whatsoever, she "distorts" without rhyme or reason, musically, she just sweetens up the walts into incoherence, a la Lang Lang (a little alliteration...)
@fredericfranc "..... teaches piano at a community college level (nothing wrong with that) and has shown a envy toward fame, 'elevated' academies, and a neat Chinese bigotry! As the great critic Newman once wrote," the academic mind, which cannot comprehend anything that is different from, and better than, anything it can produce itself". He has been at great pains to let me know his is a 'pianist'- Yet he refuses to post his own 'superior' and 'correct' play of this! Odd, isn't it? :-))"
@bloodgrss ...like I said earlier I teach at real grad-level music schools, I said that YOU needed community-college level brush-up, maybe...I don't want to bother to post my own versions because so many people ALREADY are better than Yuja on the YT, you don't need me, really
@fredericfranc Oh--but you must!! Someone with your post-graduate insight into the workings of great composers minds must surely demonstrate musicality and ability so destitute in Yuja! While your play may not invalidate the greats of the past--it MUST add to our fund of true artistic and pianistic understanding!? Otherwise, we are simply faced with total subjective pedantry and pretension--bordering on self centered bigotry!
@bloodgrss ...fuck, no, this is crappy logic, man. If Yuja fucks up bad enough, and she does, you need only somebody SOMEWHAT better, and there are many of those on the YT to get the idea across. This is the charm Yuja's pianism has, for the didactic purposes, she is lousy enough in various obvious ways, that you can fucking TEACH off her example how NOT to play the piano. The professional didacticist in me appreciates Yuja for THAT, that is why she gets all the attention from me,
@fredericfranc Say what???!!! 'Didacticist" ?! How alarming for us all! That rather confused, whiny post is the very definition of outraged 'pedantry'--but give yourself any fancy name you can grab on to. Again, I feel sorry for your students-we can hope they will soon leave and see your pretention for what it is---sorry, sorry didacticism!! Once again-and we are talking credibility here-We still await YOUR performance of this, enlightening us with its beauty, 'purity', and 'correct' rubato!
@bloodgrss I always worry about efficiency and effectiveness in teaching. If I already have, and I do, good examples of BETTER playing, MUCH BETTER playing, and so on, I don't want to be accused of some kind of ego-driven motivation, besides recording videos takes work, maybe I am too lazy, a guy in teaching has to be realistic and practical, work with what you got, like, man, have YOU ever done any teaching?...if you had you would not be talking all this crap...
@fredericfranc Your monomania (or pedantic preoccupation) is YOUR particular raison d'etre! It's NOT objective proof-anymore than what actor one might prefer as Hamlet! I am glad you're dedicated to teaching-I do so as well. But, in this day of easy video resources it is a bit of a canard you do not post your comparison versions--one has to strongly suspect your refusal has more to do with inability-or 'fear' you might NOT 'convince' us aurally with your more 'correct' and 'musical' ideas? :-)
@bloodgrss I will be the FIRST to hail you by the way--if such is merited!!! Yuja, or ANYONE, most certainly does not have the 'definitive' last word (outside of our own particular enthusiasms) So, don;'t be shy....:-)
@bloodgrss This idea that I should "post my own version" is just stupid, man, give me a break, my own students would call you an idiot, if YOU have students, try this crap on them, THEY will call you an idiot, I will be relieved of THAT burden, give them my thanks in advance for taking that job from me...
@fredericfranc I must 'prove' myself every day to students as a player--that I can hold their respect. And even as they equal or exceed my abilities.You, if I may politely opine, do not seem to have that level of concern with the talents of students you may domineeringly 'mentor'.Your refusal to post your own pianistically and musically superior versions of what the 'mediocre Yuja plays is merest evasion-and a counterpoint to your disingenuous representation of her reviews and accomplishment.
@bloodgrss If I entertained the notion of "posting my own version" I would take crap from my students and OTHER teachers, the very concept that a teacher of music has to "prove himself" would only invite ridicule. This is like saying that a composer for an instrument has to prove he can compose for the instrument by proving he can play it. I can't compete with Yuja on agility-technique, but I can convincingly argue and explain her defects by doing A/B perf. comparisons, works for teaching...
@fredericfranc Your composer analogy is totally nonsensical and irrelevant. ANY teacher of potentially professional players--as I am-must inherently prove his practical worth. I believe you are NOT such--which is fine--but it puts in perspective your refusal to 'demonstrate' your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! More pedantry. I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either...
@fredericfranc Your composer analogy is totally nonsensical and irrelevant. ANY teacher of potentially professional players--as I am-must inherently prove his practical worth. I believe you are NOT such--which is fine--but it puts in perspective your refusal to 'demonstrate' your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! More pedantry. I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either...
@fredericfranc Your composer analogy is totally nonsensical and irrelevant. ANY teacher of potentially professional players--as I am-must inherently prove his practical worth. I believe you are NOT such--which is fine--but it puts in perspective your refusal to 'demonstrate' your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! Mere pedantry. I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either..
@fredericfranc "If Yuja fucks up bad enough, and she does, you need only somebody SOMEWHAT better". Now--you are not meaning for us to believe that such an undiscovered world class pianist as YOU cannot even post a performance "SOMEWHAT" better than her! Come now, didacticist---what is your delay?! :-)
@InXLsisDeo As his "distorting Chopin" implies--he is trying to tell you, from his 'superior', piano teacher height, why YOU should hate how Yuja plays!! As a brief summary--he has dismissed the audience applause at the end as only ignorance below his own 'elite' understanding--misrepresented a review in the New York Times as being negative because he could "read between the lines" (It was a balanced rave), and implied his 20 year old students understood music better than Wang! Cul pompeux!
@bloodgrss I had a third segment, from 4 hours ago, with the subtleties and felicities there...but YT pulled it, or something. I loved my "community college" rhetoric there so much I tried to reproduce it for your edification, the "Texas - horses" thing there...
@fredericfranc"Sorry to spur such an offer-but I'm sure a cowboy type is more available to you.Oh,--Yuja has a new CD out! "FANTASIES"-encore pieces. You must get your poison keyboard ready to find fault! She plays superbly for less pedantic listeners. AND, horror upon horror--3 more CD's to come--even Prokofiev!!! I can feel your 'purist' teeth gnashing already. Best to just not listen to her anymore and raise your blood pressure with your 20 year olds-for ALL your desires :-))"
@fredericfranc " I still await your performances enlightening us with their beauty and 'correctness'-your evasions are rather telling otherwise--and eagerly await the names of famous and accomplished ex-students your omniscient and 'pure' system has graced us with-when can we expect this?" :-))
Friend, it is impossible to teach a horses ass like this scum bloodgrss new tricks. Whatever he is, he is a lost cause, just a little shit impressed with his own words and his love for mediocre pianists like Yuja. Don't let the nutcase get to you. I have had fun with many others putting in choice "descriptions" of bloodgrss into my posts :-))
@Bret6464 I'm glad you CONTINUE to borrow from my 'creative' words and phrases-"lost cause" WAS a good one when I first used it here! I suppose you must get your ideas somewhere. Original thought and UN-bigoted reason has never been within your ability-outside of UPPER_CASE crudity LOL. Over sweet Yuja, I call your attention to BBC Music March; 'nuff said there. Otherwise, tho' happy you have your Texas squeeze, I still DO enjoy the paranoid, pathetic ASS you show with every post! :-))
@bloodgrss You maybe want to focus your analytic powers on the idea of the pianist wanting to throw it into the percussionist "for the good of american music" This is a capital crime in Texas, but, in the name of a good cause I am willing to risk getting the needle. This, at least, gets us off all this foolishness about Yuja, and into the more glamorous subject of the use of lethal injection in this state.
she looks good
halooa 2 hours ago
Everybody,
stop having incredible intelligent arguments about who is best in this and that: just listen to the music making, and enjoy!
pebepebe1 18 hours ago
@pebepebe1 the problem is that you advocate that people just listen and make up their minds on the basis of what they hear so they are honest, but you are dishonest, you want them to "agree with you", if they don't , you cut them out, which means you are cynical, misleading, and plain dishonest, that kind of behavior is so cynical that I have no words for that kind of viciousness yet, an example of the worst kind viciousness that I have in assuming that Yuja must know what what she is doing..
fredericfranc 15 hours ago
@fredericfranc shut the fuck up already faggot!!!!
papcyrill 9 hours ago
@fredericfranc I hope you feel better after releasing your venom. Have a nice day!
pebepebe1 8 hours ago
@fredericfranc "..the problem...........she is doing.." Wow-aside the 'fractured' syntax, I did not realize you had so much SELF-AWARENESS! Dishonesty. cynicism, misleading,viscousness--all I would add to that is bigotry and we have the whole fredericfranc recipe! YOU did not know what you were doing (just like poor dumb Yuja?); a truthful manifesto of yourself and your musicological motivators toward anything different from, and better than, you can conceive of or produce yourself! Thanks!!!!
bloodgrss 5 hours ago
@pebepebe1 Well, it's hard to enjoy Wang's Chopin, that's about the whole point of the "incredibly intelligent arguments" bellow.
MrElicottero 8 hours ago
@MrElicottero Not for some of us.....
bloodgrss 6 hours ago
like
strrawberrygirl 1 day ago
Her training in China emphasized speed, and she never learned how to control tone-texture effects properly, moreover she has no overall unifying conception; so we get musical mixed messages: the cold-indifferent tone throughout, and those random-afterthought shots of sugar-sweetness in the rubato. The waltz, as a unified entity-dance never gets together with itself.
fredericfranc 1 day ago
@fredericfranc "Her training in China....."! Your own refusal to play for us here puts in perspective your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! More pedantry. Oh, you have forgotten 6 years with Graffman--but you dismiss him I am sure because he 'teaches' Chinese pianists, LOL! (tho' you can admire his Prokofieff Sonata No.3?)
I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either...
bloodgrss 1 day ago
@bloodgrss ...the 6 years with Graffman apparently could not "overcome" the effects of the earlier background or the " natural inclinations" (limitations?) in her case. In Yundi's case his training in Germany DID work. If Yuja went to Europe, instead of Curtis (which emphasizes "pure performance" rather than "broad musical background") would she now sound any different?
fredericfranc 1 day ago
@fredericfranc More inaccurate and subjective drivel form on high! We get YOU don't like her play-but your pronouncements on what training worked or did not is amusingly thought -stuntingly subjective! And your assessment of Curtis is not only nonsensical; how would you--who was never there-- know? "Broad musical background--what in gods good earth is that supposed to mean??? You seem as funny when you try to 'reason' as you are when being confusedly crude! :-)
bloodgrss 1 day ago
@bloodgrss If I wanted to be funny (but I am not going to try, because I have no sense of humor) I would say the broad etc., is what I got but Yuja did not, either in China, or at Curtis, but I know some people from Curtis, so I have some sense of what the place is like, but mostly Yuja seems to lack the broad etc., from the way she sounds, you can tell the past from the nature of the product in the present, the deduction, if you will, you will appreciate the elegance of my logic here...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
wtf you are all critics here? is here actually someone who think he can perform better this piece? i dont think so,,thats why you are all commenting under her videos,,
papcyrill 2 days ago
@papcyrill ...the way you want to think is not whether WE, the BIG-TIME ASSHOLE CRITICS of Yuja can play better than her, but whether there are OTHER PEOPLE, already on the TUBE, who can do that...that is the way to "educate yourself" and to realize that her way of playing this waltz here is pretty dismal actually...
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@fredericfranc What you have here is a pedant who wants to 'reason' you out of liking what you just heard!!! The fact that a million other performances may exist is always beside any point this 'Bechmesser' makes--for anyone can prefer one or the other as a SUBJECTIVE opinion. He posits that she plays it 'wrongly' and with "no-clue"--yet AS a pianist and teacher OF pianists refuses to demonstrate how it SHOULD be done?! That evasion is rather telling don't you think? :-)
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@bloodgrss I think you wanted to send this one to papcyrill, not to me, I mean he would probably find the reading more refreshing, on balance, than me..
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@fredericfranc cc: Beckmesser :-))
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@bloodgrss ...what bothers me that Bret6464 is missing out on all this. Do send him a private-message, would you?..
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@bloodgrss You seem to have a good handle on your Wagneriana...did Beckmesser ever try to rear-end anybody?...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
@fredericfranc I dont think that ppl who are commenting under her performance can play better than her,not only this piece but in general!!!As about the dismal part,,this is the way she interpret this score! This is the beauty of each high level pianist like her,,,each one interpret with personal perception!!! so educate your self as you said ,learn what is music ,especially classical music!!! You can not ditch YUGA ,who is one of the greatest pianist today.
papcyrill 1 day ago
@fredericfranc one thing is if you like it or not,and other ditching her ,and being full of negativity about her!! (i am not speaking personal about you,but some comments are out of reality)! Upload a video of you playing this piece ,and prove that you are one of youtubers who is better than her!! i am sure you dint have 5% of her skills and talent!!! she is dominating the piano world ,and it is obvious, HATERS always will be around
papcyrill 1 day ago
@papcyrill Like I keep telling others, in order to understand that and why Juja is a bad pianist, you have to listen a lot to what the other pianists on the YT are doing, you have to get away from Yuja...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
@fredericfranc I understand why her Chopin might not be first rate (compared to Pollini, Argerich, Blehacz) and I am ambivalent about her Prokofiev as well. But this woman is a good pianist. Remarkable at times, in fact. Technically impeccable. Listen to the way she plays Bartok's 2nd concerto or Rach 2.
MrElicottero 1 day ago
@MrElicottero ...I am trying to piss you off but with those concertos she appears to sound "hard-virtuosic", but what those concertos need above all is idiomatic playing conveying the "character" of the composer, and she does not do that, she plays them "cold-technical-generic" and people get the idea that "it is supposed to sound like that"...you want to check how Geza Anda does the Bartok, how Richter does the Rach...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
Comment removed
MrElicottero 1 day ago
@MrElicottero Well, there is no stiff tradition on how to do the Bartok-2 so people these days want to jump ahead of the pack and try crazy things. What do you think of Geza Anda doing it with Friscay in early 60's, and also Richter doing it? It is a Romantic concerto, really, and should be done "soft"?...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
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@fredericfranc cc: Oh yes--the Beckmesser is lecturing on musical appreciation again--letting us all know why we should not LIKE performances! If we do, then it is because we lack this pedants 'purity' and 'elite' understanding of music and pianism! I suffer for his students-as they must. But here you can see any 'acumen' he has is invalidated by disingenuous 'holier-than-thou" attitude's that simply hide a bigotry toward her and her 'training'-certainly at variance with his 'superior methods..
bloodgrss 1 day ago
@fredericfranc Anda is very good, but I slightly prefer Pollini. He is just very restrained and precise, whatever he plays. And I had the opportunity of hearing him play the concerto in Berlin, Anda I could never hear live, seeing how he died before I was born. :-)
MrElicottero 1 day ago
@MrElicottero well, I hope you are not acknowledging Anda just out of politeness, and certainly Pollini is precise...everybody on the Tube quotes like his Chopin etudes like what they try to follow...I guess he got his taste for precision from his famous teacher...I am almost sounding snide here, but I am not really trying, I have a natural gift for pissing people off without trying, just read the stuff below if you feel like...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
@fredericfranc The only thing I did out of politeness this year was applaud after a concert of Natalia Gutman's trio.
MrElicottero 1 day ago
@MrElicottero You sound so polite you must have done more than that. We in the U.S. are very rude people these days, politeness is so rare around here, that we can spot it a mile away, and appreciate it a lot, too...
fredericfranc 1 day ago
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@fredericfranc It's not working. :P I agree that her Bartok is mainly showing off her virtuosity, but I don't really mind that in this case. Because when people actually try to do more with Bartok many times it ends up being ridiculous. (I wish sometimes I could hear Pogorelić playing his 2nd concerto.)
MrElicottero 1 day ago
@fredericfranc Your obsequiousness to all these 'god's' of the past does you some credit--tho' always, in your worship, they strangely seem to illustrate some musicological verity into the composers mind that YOU-in your superior omniscience and ability-hold dear!? Yet you REFUSE to play for our edification!!? Gosh! Your stentorian 'judgments' of 'right' or 'wrong' play puts me in mind of Sir Toby Belch's phrase: "Just because thou art virtuous, does not mean there will be NO cakes and ale!" :-)
bloodgrss 1 day ago
@MrElicottero Oh yes--the Beckmesser is lecturing on musical appreciation again--letting us all know why we should not LIKE performances! If we do, then it is because we lack this pedants 'purity' and 'elite' understanding of music and pianism! I suffer for his students-as they must. But here you can see any 'acumen' he has is invalidated by disingenuous 'holier-than-thou" attitude's that simply hide a bigotry toward her and her 'training'-certainly at variance with his 'superior methods..
bloodgrss 1 day ago
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@papcyrill What you have here is a pedant who wants to 'reason' you out of liking what you just heard!!! The fact that a million other performances may exist is always beside any point this 'Beckmesser' makes--for anyone can prefer one or the other as a SUBJECTIVE opinion. He posits that she plays it 'wrongly' and with "no-clue"--yet AS a pianist and teacher OF pianists refuses to demonstrate how it SHOULD be done?! That evasion is rather telling don't you think? :-)
bloodgrss 2 days ago
i love that girl!!
papcyrill 2 days ago
Questo è un valzer che non va né ballato né ascoltato, ma va "sentito" a la pianista (a mio parere tecnicamente preparatissima e interpretativamente ineguagliabile) ci riesce in maniera naturalissima, nonostante la "relativa" difficoltà del brano. Complimenti. Brava!
picchi93 2 days ago
Très belle interprétation de la charmante Yuja Wang avec beaucoup de sensualité et d'émotions. Merci et Bravo l'Artiste!
Musicalement votre!
CK
MRKRISKA84 2 days ago
Guys - Gals, why the big fight over this performance? There are no recordings of Chopin playing this thing, all we got is the written music. But we do have recordings of legends, men young and old, prodigies and young women doing this waltz... and I've personally fallen in love with this rendition, rubato and all, and I have no problem believing Chopin would too.
WJE37FCSM 2 days ago
@WJE37FCSM I like it too--the pedantry and pompous dislike below is delivered with such pretentious anger over poor talented Yuja it would be amusing if it did not show how bigoted toward her 'Chinese' training the one is and foolishly off-key the others hearing of it. It IS played beautifully--and captures well the mood quiet 'encore' should for a live audience. Recording it, it might be different--as we can be assured Chopin would have done as he said to students "play the way you feel." :-)
bloodgrss 2 days ago
Wang has the technique, but lacks good taste and understanding of where the music came from.
Cortot, Horowitz and even Lipatti used rubato and took liberties with the rhythm too, but
they did it in such a way so that the music sound wholesome.
But in Wang's case, the music sounds very fractured and incoherent, as if it was a mish-mesh of recordings of 10 different pianists.
allemande1685 2 days ago
@allemande1685 Lacks "good taste and understanding"? Hmmm... 'Rubato' is ABOUT liberties with rhythm; obvious! The amount of 'stolen time' one likes is SUBJECTIVE--even Chopin famously told his students "play the way you feel'. But to say that Wang is "fractured and incoherent" is YOUR hearing of it--lucky, many of us find it sensitive and accomplished. It WOULD, tho' be interesting for you to NAME your "10 different" pianists--or was that just a 'clever' remark with out objective veracity?
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@allemande1685 I sort of agree with your critic. OTOH, you are comparing her with musical giants. And I believe if she studies well she will get this sense of understanding with experience, what I called "maturation". And she doesn't do worse than most of today's young artists. That's why I don't dismiss her: instead of seeing only her defects, I see her potential, and I believe she has a lot (unlike Lang Lang). Hopefully, she can get better.
InXLsisDeo 2 days ago
@allemande1685 Also, the first step between a mere student and an artist is expressing oneself and finding her own style. This is specially important for Asians, who often just tend to copy. So as a beginning artist, she is looking for her own style. Eventually her interpretation will get more terse, more unified. Or so I hope.
InXLsisDeo 2 days ago
@InXLsisDeo I still think she demonstrates a lot of interpretive sensitivity here--I like it- among so many other fine or even great versions of a wonderful piece of music. and your right--she will rethink it and adapt to her musical viewpoints as time and tide runs apace! But she IS growing--and is thoughtful--and as much, she states, 'American' in values as Chinese-so we have much to look forward to. I like your balanced and calm assessments-All the best...
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@allemande1685 If I run into a perceptive critic of Yuja, maybe I should be heard from, Mr. bloodgrss would be disappointed in me, otherwise. " Fractured and incoherent", "10 different pianists", gorgeous language, gorgeous formulations here...
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@fredericfranc Beckmesser DID have his friends too! Your 'nonchalant' glee at this silly and non-musical assessment-which does not fool the 'truly' perceptive-still underlys the your same desperate and shrill 'pseudo--elite' idea of how this 'should be played"! Again--when can we expect-you being a pianist who teaches impressionable minds-your more 'pure' and 'correct' version for our comparison? Only fair to see if you are not "fractured and incoherent" or like "10 different pianists" too? :-)
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@bloodgrss ...if I post my perf. "they" are going to say "he sounds like just ONE pianist, and an ASSHOLE pianist, too, but she sounds like TEN of them, WOW!"...
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@fredericfranc Well--if that translates to "10" times your talent and musical sensitivity I think I just might believe you--But the A...hole might fit more its true.....
bloodgrss 2 days ago
There is an extraterrestrian among us - she is..
Extraordinary!
TheoH54 6 days ago
not asians again !
DeathNest94 1 week ago
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bloodgrss 1 week ago
she sexy....d music nice to.
ChampionReggae 1 week ago 3
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@fredericfranc This has grown wearisome, as I am sure you will agree-- 'nuff said. However, that whiff of "elitism-exclusiveness" you seem to imply might be the only reason she is lauded is, again, patronizing and amusing. Somehow-your negative view is 'purist' and 'objective'! There are so many wonderful pianists-past and present-we all have those we respond to and those we don't. Your dismissive comments are your OPINIONS-I have my OPINIONS-Curtis or Texas training aside...
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
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bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
Wowwee! I'm glad she didn't hit her head on the piano... that would have been bad! rofl...
GodGiftedMusician 2 weeks ago
I wish I was as good as her =) That would be awesome!
GodGiftedMusician 2 weeks ago
@Thepeckinator
I cannot even say you are an animal !! This will be so disreputable of the animal kindoom.
pebepebe1 2 weeks ago
@Thepeckinator I can tell that you are a stool by the crass nature of your comment. Hopefully someone will shovel you up and drop you on the nearest compost heap where you can be transformed into something useful.
Aarrmehearties 2 weeks ago
I just wish, that sudently, by some event, we all become blind! Try to think about it for a minute? What will be your felling about the artist, her or his shape, color, dressing? Food? The thing of our remembering of light will be "Enlighting" Better sense, touch, and perhaps intelligence.
en light will be "Enligting".
pebepebe1 2 weeks ago
@pebepebe1 Yes-tho' it must be said Yuja IS conscious of how she appears on stage--that's simple marketing--but at her concerts-you can close your eyes and enjoy-and a new album due in March-no visuals to distract then--I look forward to it....
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@Thepeckinator How nice you read all about this in your magazines-or the multiple "sites and 'chats'' I am sure you get your grove on with on-line! I am glad you have the release you seem to desperately need LOL! Heaven forbid any REAL woman gets near you----probably no fear of that. But you are well named.....:-))
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
Yuja Wang is a brilliantly skilled pianist-who at 25 continues to grow and blossom. There will always be detractors of the successful-and NO pianist is constantly at the top on any given day or every composer. But to deny her sensitivity and musicality is pure pomposity---and to pretentiously debate who is "best' an exercise of total subjectivity. Enjoy her playing and her dedication-and the music most of all-leave the pontificating to the 'elitist's' with an agenda...
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago 6
@bloodgrss ...This is quite a blast. I am an elitist, maybe not quite in the sense you mean, but I have to be because of my job. Also, if I were not an elitist I would go insane, I figure. All these tricky motivations you attribute to me are just too elaborate. I simply listen to every detail I can pick up and think: "Is this faithful to what the composer meant?". I certainly ignore the "interests" of the audience and have a very purist, traditionalist attitude.
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc Shall we be charitable and say your and pianistic 'verities' of thought SOUND "elitist"--and my definition is narrow- a person or persons who consider themselves superior.to others. And I was right! But that pomposity came a bit late-your critical judgments are already a bit "touched". The tip of your dismissive critical iceberg starts with "Is this faithful to what the composer meant?" Wow-how can one argue when your mere opinions are so omniscient!
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...in your case I am not really interested in convincing you that Yuja is a fairly mediocre pianist, with musicians, you can't change their opinions, usually; but I am more interested in why you don't pick up what I pick up: that much of the time, in the interpretation-sensitive pieces she sounds bad. When she tries to do the Liszt sonata, or the Chopin Op. 61, she really falls flat in a fairly obvious way, but even in this waltz here she departs from the text in nasty ways
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc I NEVER entertained ANY thought you would think otherwise than you do--your opinion is fossilized. But what I find interesting is your pianistic egocentricity is at such variance with so many prominent musicians and critics and not just me. I was AT her Carnegie Hall debut felt the Liszt--along with the Times, was 'dazzling and magisterial'.The Scriabin revelatory. But your ears are closed-agenda set.What 'falls flat' is your opinion and pose as a 'purist'.
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc Wow- I have a final thought--perhaps YOU can instruct us! You seem to like to lecture and pontificate here from superior, elite height.So, why not post videos of YOU playing the Liszt Sonata and Chopin Op. 61?! Then we can hear them played 'correctly' and with your direct line to what the composers meant that poor little Yuja missed! Equally. of course, WE will be able to judge for ourselves what or who IS mediocre in piano playing! When shall we hear you? :-))
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
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bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...there are many recordings-videos of, let us say, the Liszt sonata on the YT, and some impress me more than others, or even confuse me as to what is going on, but only Yuja's, among " the reasonably well known" pianists' recordings, makes me think that she "has no clue" as to what she is doing. What is it about THIS ONE pianist that brings out my narrowmindedness and the pontificating instinct that NO OTHER pianist here can manage to do? My racism?, bigotry?,sexism?...
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc Yes-I ponder what obscures your judgment too...perhaps all three?
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...because there are so many recordings here of the Liszt and the Ch. Op.61 that do the trick of being better than Yuja's in fairly obvious ways, for me to knock myself out trying to come up with more of the acceptable recordings of these items, when there are enough of these here already, THAT would be superfluous to the argument here...
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc Wagner used to enjoy playing the overture to Der Meistersinger in a way an academic of the day would have harmonized it 'properly"--am I getting the idea you will NOT be gracing YT for our perusal and comparison your own 'correct' and 'pianistically enlightening' versions of what you criticize Yuja as playing with "no clue"!? It occurs to me I was wrong to accuse you of being narrowly 'elitist'! I think the proper word that comes to mind now is 'pedantic'....
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...all these other versions do something, except Yuja's, If I respond this way, am I all that "pedantic" and "academic"? Is my characteristically crude "Texas" style of so called "commenting" all that "academic"? Maybe, as a fellow-alum, you are too much "into" Yuja? Remember that in the classical music area, it is the music that is supposed to matter, not the performer...a classic "pontificating" turn from fredericfranc here...her "Yuja-ness" distracts "us" from the music
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc No-actually, it's pretty evident "her Yuja-ness" distracts and troubles YOU! For the majority of us, 'alums'-conductors she has played for-musicians who have worked and played with her- the 'ignorant' public here and at concerts your elite, 'purist' taste transcends- we find the music with Yuja just fine! You don't like her "musicality"--I defend it. OK. But to call her a mediocre pianist IS just plain pedantic,and yes-perhaps a little Texas crude?
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc
"Yuja is interpretively challenged...sort of obvious that she is, you don't have to be the New York Times music critic to hear that." Have you yet actually READ the review TOMMASINI wrote? I kind of think not-it might just disturb you pianistic soul-not the best reference you could have made. But a telling indictment of your rather narrow view of her. However-he may not be a pianist--and we know you think that may give us very strange notions (i.e. not yours).
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...and have always liked their work, and also met some of the "grad" singers. So I do "appreciate" the work of, at least, SOME of your alumni...Curtis is, of course, a kind of superexclusivist super-Harvard of American music, as the list of the grads shows...
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc Yes-we have many fine grads-I am a modestly achieved one.That is totally beside the point.Your attacks on Wang's 'pianism' and interpretive ineptitude are vehement, and if you DID read the NYT review of her Carnegie debut it must have given you fits. She IS a 'talent'-to belittle her abilities pure pomposity. Who claims to be the best? We all have our choices. But-sorry-your "academically' 'elitist' and 'pure' views of her are simply foolish. Your right to be that..
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...you are right in the generalization that I largely reject her as a serious artist. All of her attempts at Prokofiev don't work, she sounds like she is trying to put out music for a video-game soundtrack. She has one reasonably neat concertante effort here with the Mendelssohn concerto. The NYT reviews gave me not so much fits, as read creepy. One reviewer (at least not Tomasini) devoted almost as much space to her dress/hairdo as to her music. Reviewers have to live too.
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfrancThe attempts don't work for YOU-what a surprise! The video game crack seems-like several of your ideas-to be nonsensical. Justin Bieber/youth culture concerns seem to color your critical acumen! Yuja is smart enough to wear what she wears-clever as a fox. But most reviewers go beyond that to praise her talent and achievement-you seem not to be able to. For your ears-their praise of her pianism remains unacknowledged-and must sound creepy..
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc How generous you approve her Mendelssohn-not bad for a mediocre talent! But I must now add Prokofieff to our list of videos of your playing for our edification (if not pleasure) --you ARE a pianist? One with strong views and insight, by your own admission, into these composers 'intentions'? I expect the YT community would be grateful for your showing us how to play Sergei in the opposite from the "World of Warcraft" way--when shall you enlighten us?
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ...what is peculiar about this exchange is that you reveal almost nothing about how you think. You treat Yuja like a family member whom I have inexcusably insulted-violated and you try to punch me out as punishment. Is Yuja the best pianist on the YT? Does she play anything unacceptably? Does she have any deficiencies as an artist? Are these stupid questions to ask? I really don't know how you would answer them. What do you think of Lang Lang?..questions like that..
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc My balanced feelings on Yuja or other pianists--this YT format and your own predisposed negative opinion make that superfluous. I have been clear on my admiration of her overall playing and musicality-that is not a blanket approval of all she does,particularly a young artist-tho' 18 years of study and practice. But,"mediocre-interpretatively challenged-no clue"--these are YOUR blanket dismissals-suffice to say I find those assessments wanting in sense and validity..
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc My thinking--I applaud her sensitive playing of this--you disapprove and expand it to a indictment of her 'pianistic' ability (and--of the audience's 'purist' incompetence for applauding it.) The funny thing, Chopin never shied from 'liberty' off the tempo in the score--Berlioz and Mendelssohn claimed he simply could not play in strict time. So who's to say WHAT is 'correct'? This--and the best of her Prokofieff is musical and satisfying-sure, among many others.
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@bloodgrss ..I hope this does not make the wrong impression, but I don't want get started on another round of excitement discussing the chopinesque rubato...and since I am a Prokofievian piano maniac, getting started on that would tend to propel the "discussion" here into even more extreme verbal badlands than so far...
fredericfranc 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc Indeed! And, tho' I can 'play' the piano, I am FAR from being a 'pianist', so any discussion of Prokofievian or Chopinesque interpretation would inevitability be colored by, if I may say politely, your rather "high-pitched" attitude that non-pianists have strange and therefore somewhat invalid notions of keyboard style! Continue to enjoy and advocate for your 'enthusiasms' and artists-as I will!
"Put all your soul into it, play the way you feel!" Chopin.....
bloodgrss 2 weeks ago
@fredericfranc
This "bloodgrss" is on the payroll for Yuja, goes around posting lavish comments and harasses and attacks those who are not complimentary! He/she/it could probably get away with it if it was not so obvious.
There is nothing I have heard from Yuja that is not more than purely mechanical, with zero musicality. Further her technique is well short of brilliant.
The only explanation I can come up is she is pushed as the female Lang Lang by DG - UGH!!!
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 Wow-you seem to want to masquerade as a "reasonable' and "balanced' personality here-how predictable! Actually-despite our severe 'debate-this guy only a smidgen had to resort to crudity-but.indeed, perhaps you will find him a kindred soul. Not sure,if he bothers to investigate-whether he will respond to your particular blend of bigotry and foulness that obfuscates your opinions-at least he can make intelligent argument of his views-and actually IS a musician-unlike...:-))
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@Bret6464 Yuja is the best advertisement against herself you can get, her playing makes for such a terrific argument that one wants to concentrate on the music ONLY and EVER, nothing else matters in the classical area. What does Gary Graffman himself, who is still at Curtis, think of these two dubious propositions, LL and Yuja, that he was instrumental in unleashing upon the unsuspecting us, and the innocents of the YT????
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc I knew YOU would reappear-prodded 'back to life' by this paranoid low-life. But I have dealt with your envy and dismissiveness of a fine pianist already. You DO share with my 'pal' a fraudulent, boorish pose of superior-how did you put it-yes-'purity'! Omniscience opinion untainted by popular acclaim! With YOU tho', I still enjoy the FACT that, apparently, it DOES take a New York Times critic-to coolly point out Yuja's art over your self-serving pedantic whine.:-))
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@bloodgrss Presumably I should be thrilled, hereby. My "pose" is "opinion untainted by popular acclaim", certainly, it is my job to have that "pose", my paychecks are literally justified only by maintaining such a "pose". The New York critics did knock Yuja's "work", but in a rather oblique way, because she is a "star", they can't afford to rock the boat...keep in mind that everyone I know in the piano business rejects Yuja, I can't disregard THAT, can I?...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc One is forced to observe-who do you really know in the "piano" business!? We have established, not of the most 'elite' conservatories.It would be news to many of the musicians I know--including (if I may name drop to so 'pure' and musicologically omnipotent a personality as you posit to us) Lynn Harrell, Gary Graffman, or MTT. Your opinion is yours-lets agree it matters little anonymous 'fans' of it behind..
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@bloodgrss If you read Tomasini between the lines, in terms of what he can afford to say, he is quite dissmissive of her Liszt. The West coast people, again very cautiously, point to the fact that all she can offer in her Prok. concertos is speed, "orchestra can barely keep up", etc. These reviewers can't call a spade a spade here, they are a part of the music business. The likes of MTT "work" with her, she is good for business, is all...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc You often try to demonstrate a sort of 'psychic insight into what critics or musicians actually think 'between the lines' or in their innermost secret brain! Usually, by an amazing coincidence, it helps to readjust their thought or words to a position suspiciously close to your own! Add your contempt-understandable, since I am sure you have been burned by it-of critics as corrupted by extra-musical considerations-and we have a complete portrait......
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@fredericfranc ...of a kind of self centered Cloud-Cookoo-Land your musical soul flys in. YES! ALL these critic's and musicians, say, MTT, prostitute their integrity and intelligence simply to be with and praise Yuja! Must be the short dresses (tho' in MTT'S case you better find a different motivation) and DG contract! (oh..those DG wine and cheese parties!) So nonsensical and idiotically pompous-I would think you were joking. No-sadly-it again highlights your pedantry..:-)
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@fredericfranc And, in your new relationship with Bret6464, you seem to be sharing "factually challenged" fluids as well."That Ms. Wang played the Liszt work with such technical authority was no surprise. I have heard other accounts that better conveyed the ingenious, if elusive, design of this 30-minute multi-sectional, single-movement score. But Ms. Wang’s magisterial and dazzling performance made the most of every moment." How does one depict that as "dismissive'?!! :-))
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@bloodgrss No--check that!! How does one depict that as "QUITE dismissive"?! LOL !Semantic gymnastics, psychic insight-or simply your prejudice showing again? Certainly, NOT truthful. Just sayin.... :-))
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@bloodgrss Nobody is forcing you to do anything but to shut up! Enough drivel from you, get off Yuja's payroll, do something constructive with yourself!
Stop harassing people who state Yuja's pianism is wanting badly - she's nothing more than a gimmick without an ounce of musicality in her playing!
Now be a good little boy - whatever you are, and go away, you are a nuisance! :-)
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 (I am glad to be a nuisance to such a distinguished wit and sound personality as you!) :-)) Your baby tantrums and impotent 'critical' 'acumen' about her pianism won't affect her career or the positive opinion of the majority of the public--YT'er-and musicians and critics who thoughtful people can actually RESPECT! That must make the phloem stick in your throat little man-no wonder I have always thought someone should burp you...:-))
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@fredericfranc The NYT review you somewhat typically misrepresent-it's quibbles were few- not even close to the "interpretatively challenged, mediocre, and no clue" tag you have the temerity to tag her with. Just sayin...
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@fredericfranc I have no problems with honest opinions. The problem is scumbags like "bloodgrss", so obviously on Yuja's payroll, who harass and attack people in an attempt to censure!
Scum like "bloodgrss" do NOT belong - let's get him banned from YT, from google, from civil society!
I cringe listening to LL!! About Yuja, she is so bad that it is hard to come up with the words. Consider both are from the PRC and the PRC CD market is the largest - what else is there?
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 What I don't really get why Yuja and LL "go over" in the West? LL being named one of the "top most influential..." etc. by Time mag., what is going on here? Note that Yundi Li who is a noticeably better artist than these two, is not doing anywhere near as well in the "public adulation" thing, but Yundi is Chinese too...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc LL and Yuja's "fame" in the West is hot air - you can't look to Time, they are no longer relevent.
Reason why LL and Yuja get the exposure is because the record label DG finances and promotes. Only Chinese from the PRC (Red China) have ben signed to contracts, the PRC CD market is huge and growing. LL's all grimaces and contortions. Yuja's claim to fame is her short skirts! That's all you get - gimmicks and bad pianists. Yundi Li is vastly superior.
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 I largely agree with you about the "quality" of these people, but why is DG throwing all this support? I don't understand their reasoning, unless you mean they are after the revenues from sales in mainland China. Yundi Li is from mainland China too, why doe he not get more record-label backing?, he combines considerable real quality with considerable "platform visual appeal"...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc Classical market is dead in the US - iPads have taken over. The markets are Europe/Russia/Asia, biggest by far the PRC. All the classical record co's are European. You get Chinese performers from the PRC and Europeans/Russians. Concerts are run by labels, so we get LL and Yuja at all the American and European venues :-((
Yundi Li does not do concerti (Rach, Chopin.. ) has recorded great Chopin - in the tradition of Rubinstein. Do not know why he does not tour.
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 I read Yuja concert reviews from NYT, also LATimes, SFChrle, very creepy reading. Yuja "lives" in NYC, Yundi in HK, something weird about this. I read the Wiki-dia articles on LL (also Yuja), very creepy, incredible reading, LL is involved in all this stuff all over the place, invited to the WH(!!??). What is going on? Should you have the inclination and a chance to read the LL article, should you have any comments, I certainly would be interested...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc Saw the LATimes review on Yuja, heard about her from friends who went to her LA concert - and walked out :-)) The review and comments were all about the super short skirt, more than creepy. Her claim to fame is a YT video that got over 1M views (THE "Bumblebee" - a stunt) Have zero willingness to read anything about LL or Yuja, or to see either perform - WH invitations? An invite would be a gesture to improve relations between the US and the PRC, they own us :-).
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 I certainly understand your unwillingness, etc. I am mostly proposing this out of my "intellectual-academic-analytic" impulses. LL and Yuja are some kind of "cultural phenomena of our time". The way the reviews of the work of such "peculiar artists" (say the Tomasini job on her Carnegie Hall thing) get written, or what the Wiki-dia articles say they "do", including extracurricuarly, can be seen as lending some insight into "our times" (Chopin's "Notre Temps", a joke?)...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc You capture both LL and Yuja perfectly - it's a joke! In my opinion, those two are the latest iteration on the process of "dumbing down America" that has been ungoing. Yuja's "fame" has much in common with the Kardashians. In her Carnegie Hall gig, even with a program that included many lesser-known and rarely performed Scriabin pieces, she showed no musicality, nada, zip!
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 What I was driving at in suggesting that you read and comment on some of that stuff, was, do you think Yuja and LL, in their approach to "interpreting" piano music suggest a trend of trying to fuse the classsical and the pop? They try to offer a "classical-lite", or "fast-food" versions of the classics? Is this thing likely to catch on? Does it represent a "clear and present danger" to the very concept of what classical music is and how it "exists in the world"?...
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc I have read this 'critical' love fest between you two nimrod's with ROTFL! I am GLAD you have found each other--at least one other person to vent your platitudinous bile and pretentious, precious pomposities to! Can achieve World Peace together--or--at the least-get a room?!
It puts me in mind of an Aesop fable "The Ass and his Purchaser"! I recommend it's moral as an apt description of the amusing anti-Yuja braying displayed here by you two "worthies" :-))
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@fredericfranc OH OH - Watch out :-)) The loonies are out of the asylum led by this scum "bloodgrss"!
Your premise is interesting, that LL and Yuja are marketed as "classical-lite" phenoms, perhaps. It would be closer to the mark that both play to their limits on piano, hence you get the LL histrionics, and Yuja's gimmick with the short-short skirts.
I don't know anyone who does not cringe listening to LL and Yuja, their Rach performances are an abomination.
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 If I had legs like that I would be wearing skirts like that too, with legs like that on display the music actually sounds better, she ends up getting better reviews, in a technical sense it is not a gimmick, perhaps..
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc :-)) Yes, why not? Have been discussing LL and Yuja with some classical pianists who have done major competitions, they all throw up their hands as to why LL and Yuja. LL is now with Sony, not DG, and consensus is that the push from DG solely reflect that they are both from the PRC - that is what sells. No other pianists, particularly those from Taiwan, Japan and Korea can be marketed into the PRC, that's verboten based on politics. So we get LL and Yuja :-((
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 Yes, sir...but I still don't understand what is happening to Yundi? Why is he not promoted better, he is from PRC, why does he live in HK, and not NYC, like Yuja?
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc I am not sure about Yundi, why he is not more active. There were some reviews of some of his concerts that were not optimum. He did win the Chopin - deservedly - at a very young age, recorded with DG, did some tours. Many artists undergo stages in their careers, his relative inactivity may be self-imposed. I hope he returns and performs as great as he did early on :-)
Bret6464 1 week ago
@Bret6464 I appreciate your various comments clearly reflecting musical good sense. If you run into any new ideas or blogs relating to the topics we got into here, please bring them to my attention. If you have not seen it, I recommend the Isaac Stern doc film about his musical trip to China some years back. I think it does have some bearing on the LL and Yuja "mystery" today, and maybe even on Yundi.
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc " I appreciate your various comments clearly reflecting musical good sense."!!! I just HAD to post one more observation--I had missed this last love post to my Bretty. We actually laughed out-loud. What is so unintentionally funny about your statement is how obvious "musical good sense' is defined by how closely it aligns with YOUR thinking! Add to, opposed by people of importance, you psychically read "between the lines" to dredge up that they really AGREE with your views-ROTFL!
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@bloodgrss You are getting it all wrong. If you actually bothered to read what each one of us wrote and thought about it, you would realize that on nearly all the points I was interested in, fredericfranc and Bret6464 DISAGREE. But reading and THINKING about what you read is not your way. So your way is missing things, and not getting the point. No wonder you can't interpret the reviews properly. This "good sense" thing is how he states his points, something you don't have, right?
fredericfranc 1 week ago
@fredericfranc " But reading and THINKING about what you read is not your way. " You took the words right out of my mouth! Actually, there ain't much disagreement to read--but you have demonstrated a remarkable ability to re-interpret what you and others have said and written--even to grossly misrepresent an NYT review! My 'point' on Yuja's ability and talent is pretty clearly stated, yours is one long obsessively unsubstantiated, biased and pretentious harangue...
bloodgrss 1 week ago
@bloodgrss "community college"- nightschool type deal. Betwee you and me, I don't have much of a shot at this Bret guy, but from the way you talk, you are a flaming faggot, maybe I am one too, we gotta cut all this stupid shit about Yuja, and cut to the chase here, get something going. This is Texas, I watch horses do it, I take it from there, do it with the orchestral players all the time. I figure you need a pianist to throw it into you to straighten you out on Yuja...
fredericfranc 6 days ago
@fredericfranc I wonder what you think of "RACHMANINOFF PLAYS Chopin Waltz, Op. 64, No. 2 in C-Sharp Minor (1989 Remastered) ". Beware though, it's probably the most horribly distorted Chopin you'll ever hear.
As for Yuja Wang, she does a good job here. She still needs a lot of maturation, but with her skills, she has the capacity to become a great player. Not every player has become great from the start in the past. Maturation is needed to the reach a true understanding of music.
InXLsisDeo 3 days ago
@InXLsisDeo To try to make it short Rach sounded pretty good to me, great handling of the rubato, obviously, something Yuja can't do. She has been playing the piano by now for God knows how long. If she sounds this bad at 25, after studying with Graffman at Curtis, lots of concerts all over the place, several recordings, etc., I doubt she is going to get any better with "maturation", but, God knows, miracles sometimes happen...
fredericfranc 3 days ago
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@fredericfranc cc: Beckmesser- "As SHOULD be obvious, 'rubato' is a matter of individual, SUBJECTIVE taste! She IS maturing-and HAS; but the mad bigotry of my obsessive 'friend' below is not only the pedantic pomposity of his pose as a 'superior' omniscient into proper rubato in Chopin, but continues the biased impertinence to decry her much talent at all! The Rach version is as wildly at variance with the score as anything she does--and, for me, an overly odd and ineffective one. Heresy!" :-)
bloodgrss 3 days ago
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@fredericfranc We still await YOUR performance of this, enlightening us with its beauty, 'purity', and 'correct' rubato! I am sure poor Yuja would be edified and grateful! You DO claim to be a pianist?? Your evasions are rather telling otherwise--and I still eagerly await the names of famous and accomplished ex-students your omniscient and 'pure' system has graced us with-when can we expect this? :-))
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@InXLsisDeo As SHOULD be obvious, 'rubato' becomes a matter of individual SUBJECTIVE taste. She IS maturing-and has; but the mad bigotry of my obsessive 'friend' below is not just pedantic pomposity in his pose of a 'superior' omniscience into proper rubato in Chopin, but continues the biased impertinence to decry her much talent at all! The Rach version is as wildly at variance with the score as anything she does--and, for me, an overly odd and ineffective one. Heresy!
bloodgrss 3 days ago
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bloodgrss 3 days ago
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bloodgrss 3 days ago
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bloodgrss 3 days ago
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@InXLsisDeoBut fredericfranc teaches piano at a community college level (nothing wrong with that) and has shown a envy toward fame, 'elevated' academies, and a neat Chinese bigotry! As the great critic Newman once wrote," the academic mind, which cannot comprehend anything that is different from, and better than, anything it can produce itself". He has been at great pains to let me know his is a 'pianist'- Yet he refuses to post his own 'superior' and 'correct' play of this! Odd, isn't it? :-))
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@InXLsisDeo "Distorting" Chopin is great "fun", it is done, and has been done in the past 2 centuries a lot by a lot of people. Miss Argerich, and, even more so, the "great" Horowitz himself were major distorters. At least some of the time I was not amused by some of that. But the issue here is that Yuja is a lousy artist, no musical judgement whatsoever, she "distorts" without rhyme or reason, musically, she just sweetens up the walts into incoherence, a la Lang Lang (a little alliteration...)
fredericfranc 3 days ago
@fredericfranc "..... teaches piano at a community college level (nothing wrong with that) and has shown a envy toward fame, 'elevated' academies, and a neat Chinese bigotry! As the great critic Newman once wrote," the academic mind, which cannot comprehend anything that is different from, and better than, anything it can produce itself". He has been at great pains to let me know his is a 'pianist'- Yet he refuses to post his own 'superior' and 'correct' play of this! Odd, isn't it? :-))"
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@bloodgrss ...like I said earlier I teach at real grad-level music schools, I said that YOU needed community-college level brush-up, maybe...I don't want to bother to post my own versions because so many people ALREADY are better than Yuja on the YT, you don't need me, really
fredericfranc 3 days ago
@fredericfranc Oh--but you must!! Someone with your post-graduate insight into the workings of great composers minds must surely demonstrate musicality and ability so destitute in Yuja! While your play may not invalidate the greats of the past--it MUST add to our fund of true artistic and pianistic understanding!? Otherwise, we are simply faced with total subjective pedantry and pretension--bordering on self centered bigotry!
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@bloodgrss ...fuck, no, this is crappy logic, man. If Yuja fucks up bad enough, and she does, you need only somebody SOMEWHAT better, and there are many of those on the YT to get the idea across. This is the charm Yuja's pianism has, for the didactic purposes, she is lousy enough in various obvious ways, that you can fucking TEACH off her example how NOT to play the piano. The professional didacticist in me appreciates Yuja for THAT, that is why she gets all the attention from me,
fredericfranc 3 days ago
@fredericfranc Say what???!!! 'Didacticist" ?! How alarming for us all! That rather confused, whiny post is the very definition of outraged 'pedantry'--but give yourself any fancy name you can grab on to. Again, I feel sorry for your students-we can hope they will soon leave and see your pretention for what it is---sorry, sorry didacticism!! Once again-and we are talking credibility here-We still await YOUR performance of this, enlightening us with its beauty, 'purity', and 'correct' rubato!
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@bloodgrss I always worry about efficiency and effectiveness in teaching. If I already have, and I do, good examples of BETTER playing, MUCH BETTER playing, and so on, I don't want to be accused of some kind of ego-driven motivation, besides recording videos takes work, maybe I am too lazy, a guy in teaching has to be realistic and practical, work with what you got, like, man, have YOU ever done any teaching?...if you had you would not be talking all this crap...
fredericfranc 3 days ago
@fredericfranc Your monomania (or pedantic preoccupation) is YOUR particular raison d'etre! It's NOT objective proof-anymore than what actor one might prefer as Hamlet! I am glad you're dedicated to teaching-I do so as well. But, in this day of easy video resources it is a bit of a canard you do not post your comparison versions--one has to strongly suspect your refusal has more to do with inability-or 'fear' you might NOT 'convince' us aurally with your more 'correct' and 'musical' ideas? :-)
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@bloodgrss I will be the FIRST to hail you by the way--if such is merited!!! Yuja, or ANYONE, most certainly does not have the 'definitive' last word (outside of our own particular enthusiasms) So, don;'t be shy....:-)
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@bloodgrss This idea that I should "post my own version" is just stupid, man, give me a break, my own students would call you an idiot, if YOU have students, try this crap on them, THEY will call you an idiot, I will be relieved of THAT burden, give them my thanks in advance for taking that job from me...
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@fredericfranc I must 'prove' myself every day to students as a player--that I can hold their respect. And even as they equal or exceed my abilities.You, if I may politely opine, do not seem to have that level of concern with the talents of students you may domineeringly 'mentor'.Your refusal to post your own pianistically and musically superior versions of what the 'mediocre Yuja plays is merest evasion-and a counterpoint to your disingenuous representation of her reviews and accomplishment.
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@bloodgrss If I entertained the notion of "posting my own version" I would take crap from my students and OTHER teachers, the very concept that a teacher of music has to "prove himself" would only invite ridicule. This is like saying that a composer for an instrument has to prove he can compose for the instrument by proving he can play it. I can't compete with Yuja on agility-technique, but I can convincingly argue and explain her defects by doing A/B perf. comparisons, works for teaching...
fredericfranc 2 days ago
@fredericfranc Your composer analogy is totally nonsensical and irrelevant. ANY teacher of potentially professional players--as I am-must inherently prove his practical worth. I believe you are NOT such--which is fine--but it puts in perspective your refusal to 'demonstrate' your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! More pedantry. I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either...
bloodgrss 2 days ago
@fredericfranc Your composer analogy is totally nonsensical and irrelevant. ANY teacher of potentially professional players--as I am-must inherently prove his practical worth. I believe you are NOT such--which is fine--but it puts in perspective your refusal to 'demonstrate' your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! More pedantry. I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either...
bloodgrss 2 days ago
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@fredericfranc Your composer analogy is totally nonsensical and irrelevant. ANY teacher of potentially professional players--as I am-must inherently prove his practical worth. I believe you are NOT such--which is fine--but it puts in perspective your refusal to 'demonstrate' your indictment of Yuja's play to an 'impractical' pompous subjectivity! Mere pedantry. I HAD no illusion you could match her in "agility, technique"--my belief is you could not match her in musicality and pianism either..
bloodgrss 2 days ago
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bloodgrss 3 days ago
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@fredericfranc "If Yuja fucks up bad enough, and she does, you need only somebody SOMEWHAT better". Now--you are not meaning for us to believe that such an undiscovered world class pianist as YOU cannot even post a performance "SOMEWHAT" better than her! Come now, didacticist---what is your delay?! :-)
bloodgrss 3 days ago
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bloodgrss 3 days ago
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@fredericfranc Your actual play would allow us who listen on YT at least to judge who, or who does not, play with "facile superficiality"? :-)
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@InXLsisDeo As his "distorting Chopin" implies--he is trying to tell you, from his 'superior', piano teacher height, why YOU should hate how Yuja plays!! As a brief summary--he has dismissed the audience applause at the end as only ignorance below his own 'elite' understanding--misrepresented a review in the New York Times as being negative because he could "read between the lines" (It was a balanced rave), and implied his 20 year old students understood music better than Wang! Cul pompeux!
bloodgrss 3 days ago
@bloodgrss I had a third segment, from 4 hours ago, with the subtleties and felicities there...but YT pulled it, or something. I loved my "community college" rhetoric there so much I tried to reproduce it for your edification, the "Texas - horses" thing there...
fredericfranc 6 days ago
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@fredericfranc"Sorry to spur such an offer-but I'm sure a cowboy type is more available to you.Oh,--Yuja has a new CD out! "FANTASIES"-encore pieces. You must get your poison keyboard ready to find fault! She plays superbly for less pedantic listeners. AND, horror upon horror--3 more CD's to come--even Prokofiev!!! I can feel your 'purist' teeth gnashing already. Best to just not listen to her anymore and raise your blood pressure with your 20 year olds-for ALL your desires :-))"
bloodgrss 6 days ago
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@fredericfranc " I still await your performances enlightening us with their beauty and 'correctness'-your evasions are rather telling otherwise--and eagerly await the names of famous and accomplished ex-students your omniscient and 'pure' system has graced us with-when can we expect this?" :-))
bloodgrss 6 days ago
@fredericfranc
Friend, it is impossible to teach a horses ass like this scum bloodgrss new tricks. Whatever he is, he is a lost cause, just a little shit impressed with his own words and his love for mediocre pianists like Yuja. Don't let the nutcase get to you. I have had fun with many others putting in choice "descriptions" of bloodgrss into my posts :-))
Bret6464 6 days ago
@Bret6464 I'm glad you CONTINUE to borrow from my 'creative' words and phrases-"lost cause" WAS a good one when I first used it here! I suppose you must get your ideas somewhere. Original thought and UN-bigoted reason has never been within your ability-outside of UPPER_CASE crudity LOL. Over sweet Yuja, I call your attention to BBC Music March; 'nuff said there. Otherwise, tho' happy you have your Texas squeeze, I still DO enjoy the paranoid, pathetic ASS you show with every post! :-))
bloodgrss 6 days ago
@bloodgrss You maybe want to focus your analytic powers on the idea of the pianist wanting to throw it into the percussionist "for the good of american music" This is a capital crime in Texas, but, in the name of a good cause I am willing to risk getting the needle. This, at least, gets us off all this foolishness about Yuja, and into the more glamorous subject of the use of lethal injection in this state.
fredericfranc 6 days ago