Saying that people who disagree with the ruling class are ill and defected, and to be cured by pumping enough drugs their brain cant function enough to disagree, is typical of a fascist nation, so why wouldnt the US do it?
How would a child know about the god bullshit unless it's taught to them. Fuck that shit anyone can tell nephy is full of shit. No kids are born knowing.
@1GodOnly you called me a bunch of names then blocked me?whats your problem you right wing nut?maybe retarded babies are atheists but adult theist are retarded.you brainless twit
@TheTruePooka There might be some truth to the argument that atheists have "something horribly wrong with you, you're a damaged misfit". After all, I was brought up in a Catholic household. LOL
I can't find it but I saw a video a year or so ago that addressed this issue from a Christian.
The subject was what happens to a baby when they die since they haven't accepted Jesus or God or whatever. The response was or close to "if we pray really hard for the baby and your friends do then they go to heaven".
is atheism the rejection of the concept of god or an unawareness of the concept of god? babies are unaware of pretty much all concepts, it has no relevance to the concepts validity.
@blahblahfeckinblah There is "implicit" atheism vs "explicit" atheism. A conscious rejection of God concepts would be explicit atheism. Never having heard of the God concept is; "implicit atheism".
And the only relevance the argument has in our culture is how it relates to the; "victory via Majority opinion" argument. Just because "Majority Opinion" is a fallacy doesn't mean the basis for that fallacy isn't wrong and shouldn't be corrected.
@TheTruePooka I'm just saying, babies are unaware of the existence of pretty much everything, factual and fictional. I live in the UK so the idea of babies being theists isn't really something that needs arguing against.
Actually new born baby are not born Atheist. Because THEY DONT KNOW SHIT. In order to be atheist. You have to at least know what the fuck god is. If anything there born agnostic.
babies aren't atheists or theists. babies are like a blank hard drive, they carry within them the hardware to install later programming. Turn on a computer with a blank hard drive, and it will hum away doing nothing in particular. Depending on who owns the computer will determine what is installed. Babies have only the most basic understanding: cry for food, for mommy etc. They are essentially blank. they really cant be labeled anything other than poop machines.
@ikanipo babies are not complete blank drives. that would imply that everything about them stems from nurture but a lot of what people are stems from nature and their genetics. that is why two twins raised in the same environment and the same parenting end up having completely different personalities.
@triniman2408 I agree, which is why I said whoever owns a computer determines its usage. The computer has comes with the base hardware and programs needed to operate, the but the owner will later determine how it will be used. Like babies who are born with the base instincts and the parents later determine how they are raised. You re-hashed everything I said in my original comment.
@ikanipo a large deal of who we are such as our personality comes from nature not nurture. because i have 3 siblings and we were all raised in very similar environments and we all very different from each other.
I think that all babies are Atheists argument is missing a bigger point.
In fact I think it's a weak argument, just because babies don't believe in god doesn't mean he's not real, I mean God probably isn't real, but 'a baby doesn't believe in something so it's weak' is not an argument. Babies aren't born biologists, does that hinder evolution? No.
The bigger picture is that babies are born ignorant and ideologies should not be forced on them, but education, the best path to the truth.
@MarkArandjus The point of the babies are atheists argument is simply to point out the default position, that the burden of proof lies on the theist to change us from the default state. Or to bring light to Dawkins dislike of labeling children by the religion of their parents.
I have never, ever heard anyone ever say that "Babies are atheists, therefore there is no god." I don't know where people get the idea that this is the point. It's a laughably stupid claim that no-one would make.
Sorry. They didn't know anything about it until they met children with Christian parents. When they asked what it was, I told them that some people believe this and when they asked if I believed it, I told them I did not. But before that they had no concept of a god or even believe one was necessary.
I'm an atheist and my children didn't know anything about the mythology called Christianity. I decided to let them discover it on their own, look into it if they want to and reject it on their own.
@TheNextTwilightZone I see, but what I was getting at is babies are not born with any concept of belief, life death, love etc. they, for the most part, must be taught these things. Also I think you're alluding to babies being a creation of some higher power so, why is it that children need to be bombarded with religious nonsense from birth? Wouldn't God or whoever you think already instilled these beliefs?
@TheNextTwilightZone Babies are born but how do they have belief in god unless they're indoctrinated? Shouldn't that belief be inherent from birth? I grew with the understanding that religion exists and by choice you can believe what you want, I'm an athiest btw.
What about the opisote side though? what are the motives of atheist's saying "all babies are atheists"? personaly I don't understand the motive dehind that statment and what it means. i'm not convinced it is always just a counter to "teisim is the defalt position".
It is really liberating when you cast off the yoke of religion. No more tap-dancing for jeebus, trying to explain all the holes in the plot that can be found in the bible.
I've often found myself insisting that atheism isn't the default position, but not because I think people automatically believe in God. My view was that babies are neutral in this regard. They haven't yet developed the necessary concepts to be considered either.
I must admit, this still makes babies atheists in the same way as tress, rocks and rotting corpses. Not having a belief on the matter, they couldn't be said to believe in God. But I think actual atheism involves a little more thought.
Religion was never pushed onto me, my mother let me discover it on my own and I did. And after some study, I realized I had no use for it. Atheists don't hate god, you can't hate something that you believe was a myth created by man to explain the world and it's workings.
My children knew nothing of god or his religion until they heard about it from other children. I will not expose them to these beliefs, but if they happen to discover it on their own and adopt those beliefs, I won't discourage them. I can't push my beliefs or non beliefs on my children, just seems wrong to me.
@jvsm, god let job's children die to defend his vanity. God flooded the world supposedly and I imagine children died in that, also. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, probably some children lived there, too. Yeah, god was all about protecting the lives of children.
@S JOBSsons&daughters lived for a very long time.This was before the flood.So chances are they couldve been hundreds of yrs old at the time,but we dont know if they were small children.The book of Job reveals something about Job to all of us &perhaps God chose Job to endure this in order to help us in times of great distress.In all of Jobs tragedies,Job always had God placed FIRST in his Heart.His circumstances never became idols.He seekd God at all times.Jobs family were taken to AbrahasBosom.
@Supe re JOB. To say that Yahweh/God is evil for allowing satan to destroy Jobs TEMPORAL life - TEMPORARILY - is not the truth. And the account of JOB is more about the FAITH of Job when being savagely brutally attacked by the g-od of this world who is satan. satan is the fallen angel who CURRENTLY has dominion over this earth. And he roams the earth seeking whom he can devour.Not until Yahweh(Yeshua aka Jesus Christ) returns and establishes HIS Kingdom will there be PEACE.Satan is the destroyer
@jvsm, you say that your god wouldn't sent babies to hell because that would make him cruel and unjust, then how about in the old testament where soldiers were commanded to stab pregnant women in the stomach so it will kill the unborn child also.
@SuperD I asnwered this question to another on this channel about the very same thing. You must do a comprehensive study on the NEPHILIM,RAPHAIM etc and find out WHAT THEY WERE. Whether you believe the account given - IS YOUR CHOICE - but there is a VERY significant reason WHY God instructed the killing of men,women,pregnant women,children - and ALL their livestock AND to destroy all their FOOD. You will at least be informed with the correct account whether u believe or not.it's up to u.
No. Babies cannot consciously reject Yahweh.Babies dont consciously despise, hate, mock, ridicule, blaspheme Yahweh to be "atheist". Babies are born under the curse of Adam.thus they are born into sin and into corrupt bodies that need to be restored renewed and healed from the inside out.Jesus does that.ALL Babies are NOT ACCOUNTABLE when they die & go straight to Heaven.But you atheists ARE all accountable and will stand before Him and give account unless you choose Jesus to HEAL ur heart.
@jvsm1971 I don't hate Yaweh - that would make me a theist.
And according to the doctrine of baptism babies actually don't go to heavenif they aren't baptized. Where do you think the concept of limbo comes from? IT was developed because Christians didn't have the stomach to stay true to their doctrine and say that babies who die before baptism burn in hell forever.
And btw - you're contradicting yourself. Either you follow the catholic belief you stated and they go to hell or you -(cont)
@TheTruePooka Im not a catholic.... Im not any denomination. Neither were the apostles!! They were jewish men who loved Jesus and knew He was their Messiah,King,Saviour and God. Men have perverted to suit themselves,the teaching in theWord. The POPES brought about all these changes and created their own doctrines around the bible to control people through fear.People at the time were forbidden to read for themselves the Word and trusted these wicked men to tell them the truth.Hence all the lies.
@jvsm1971 (cont) Protestant belief - which is often merely apologetics to avoid the unsettling belief that your religion dictates that babies burn and suffer for all eternity.
@TheTru I wasn't talking about "protestant" doctrine. Im talking about what is written in the bible... and yes, babies burning in hell is UNBIBLICAL teaching - it's not found anywhere. No one is put into "hell" until they have been fully judged and have given full account of their lives. White Throne Judgement(END OF AGE) for all unbelievers &Bema Seat Judgement for all believers. 2different judgements. Babies are NOT judged.But everyone else who is of the age of accountability will be judged.
@jvsm1971 your incorrect dude because children are born with knowledge of nothing its the elder or parent that must teach the child. so you stand corrected..
@viego215 "incorrect" according to what?? Not according to the Word - and based on the Word. Babies are NOT accountable and they are NOT appointed to perish/suffer the wrath of God. That would make Yahweh evil and unjust - which HE is not. You have chosen to believe otherwise to suit your preconceived ideas about Yahweh/God of the bible. but show me a scritpture where God throws babies into hell..... God judges all of us who are accountable and the MOTIVES in our HEARTS.
@jvsm1971 doesnt god tell joshua to sack entire villages and rip the pregnant women open and bash their children on rocks? you better read your holy book dude. as a matter of fact its not a hard fact to see.cause if you were born into a muslim family you would be a muslim if you were born in jerusalem you would probly be jewish. so no matter how much u quote your scriptures you will be wrong every time your book says one thing but reality says the opposite so stop lying to yourself its useless
@v You should know, that Joshua was instructed to kill slaughter ALL "NEPHILIM".. and if you know your bible, you will know WHAT they are. Again, you're assuming God saves you if you happen to be born into the right kind of family. That is not the truth. The truth (in the bible) is that God will save ANYONE who calls upon HIS name.Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER(muslim,catholic,hindu,atheist) calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (from their HEART) SHALL BE SAVED.
@jvsm1971 "And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER(muslim,catholic,hindu,atheist) calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (from their HEART) SHALL BE SAVED."
Right, but that is not answering the point viego is making. He says that if you are born into a hindu family, you probably won't be calling upon JC. Just like you, a christian, won't be calling upon Vishnu any time soon. Because that's simply not what you have been told to do. And thus not what you believe.
@ScientificBob Well, I beg to differ...many peoples from all nations are turning to Jesus. He is appearing to men/women and children in dreams and visions particularly in countries where christianity is a crime.You will find many "underground" believers in China,Iran,Yemen,India,Indonesia etc who have had a supernatural encounter with Jesus and have left everything to follow Him.Many even today are being crucified (Iraq) and tortured for trusting in Him.Would you willingly face that for a lie.?
@S That all nations haven't come to foot of the cross yet,doesnt negate His Word.His prophetic Word is still unfolding.That it hasn't fully transpired doesn't make God a liar.His Word says the following must happenfirst.1World Government(NWO),1World LEADER(Antichrist)1WorldCURRENCY,1World RELIGION(a blend of ALL "religions" EXCLUDING those who truly LOVE the Lord Jesus Christ who dont compromise on HIS Word).WW3in Middle EAst.Jerusalem DIVIDED.Damascus DESTROYED.THEN the nations turn to HIM.
@ScientificBob No. I wouldn't kill myself or anyone else for what I believe. Im commanded to LOVE my NEIGHBOUR- good or bad. But as a believer and follower of Jesus Christ and because I believe He is THE Truth, I will not, ever give up my faith in Him even if it means I must be persecuted for it, or even killed for it.A believer in Jesus dies because they love Him and TRUST Him. if you're implying that is the same as Jihad, then I suggest you dig a little deeper into the MOTIVES Jihad.
@jvsm1971 Motives are the same here. Blind faith that some sky daddy commands you to behave a certain way. You are completely missing the point. You argued that your religion probably isn't a lie because some people have given their life and were tortured etc. Jihadis also give their life because they trust in their god. If strong blind faith gives a claim more weight, it should apply here too.
If it doesn't work for the jihadis, why does it work for your religion of choice?
@jvsm1971 really? do you think any of those people that died on 9/11 called to be saved by god when they were jumping out of the windows and into their death? cuz i dont remember anyone that jumped surviving. the truth is all you have is a old book full of stories and contradiction and if their was only one god their would only be one religion. i dont ask for much just some proof
@viego215 so its ok for god to tell you to kill a bunch of people but if he sends them to a place that doesnt exist sense you cant prove that it does its ok? one mare question how can your religion be the right one their have be plenty of other religions before yours? why isnt zues real? he is a god after all.
@viego215 God instructed Joshua to kill all NEPHILIM. You must do a study on this before condemning the God of the scriptures.God has never told me to kill people.Jesus instructs us to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOUR-whoever they might be,friend or enemy.My "religion"? well I thank God i dont have a "religion".Religion is counterfeit to the real deal which is a full on relationship with our Creator, Jesus Christ's sacrifice bridging the divide between fallen man and Holy God.Zeus is satan is real.
@v I believe trusting in Jesus Christ to save me from utter destruction is the truth as Im living proof I CANT change anything about myself deep inside - and neither can any "religion". "religion" is a show we put on to impress ourselvs and others. It's fake and it relies on your own self importance, knowledge,wisdom,efforts,good deeds, to "save"..whereas, Jesus says no one can do it...but I CAN.. if you just trust in ME I will clean up the darkest parts of your heart.That's how I know, for me.
@jvsm1971 Funny how you think religion is fake and in the same breath quote your particular religion of choice as "evidence" that you must be correct about that.
Your argument works because your argument works because your argument works because your argument works because your argument works because your argument is circular, dumbass.
@ I said it was the truth-TO ME! Based on what I understand.U are free to believe in whatever u like, &u are free to believe u know the truth also.My argument works? It's not an arguement. Im pointing out what the BIBLE does NOT say in relation to babies. Im stating a biblical fact - whether you choose to believe the bible or disregard it - is your CHOICE.I have CHOSEN to believe in the Word. I believe Jesus IS the WORD made flesh. You dont need to insult people just bcos u dont share same view.
@jvsm1971 "whether you choose to believe the bible or disregard it - is your CHOICE" Actually, no... it's not. I don't 'choose' what I believe. I believe what can convince me according to an appropriate standard. I'm intellectually too honest to 'choose' what I believe.
"I believe Jesus IS the WORD made flesh" This is completely meaningless. It's just english words strung together but it says nothing and is completely non-sensical.
@ScientificBob You believe "according to an appropriate standard"? what's that then? My standard is the Word. That's what I live by. And you, tell me what standards you live by and who sets them for you? You say you dont choose what you believe? WHAT? that makes NO sense.Of coarse you choose what you believe.You think you can stand before Jesus Christ and say "but but but, i didn't know enough to believe in You"? Coarse you know enough to believe. The truth is, YOU HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO BELIEVE.
@jvsm1971 "My standard is the Word" So you stone your desobedient children?
"tell me what standards you live by" Reason and evidence.
"who sets them for you" I do, who else?
"You say you dont choose what you believe? WHAT? that makes NO sense" It does if you care wheter or not your beliefs are actually correct. Could you choose right now to believe in santa claus from this point on? And honestly believe it?
@ScientificBob Jesus Christ is also known as The Word. If you read the bible (you can get themfor free online) in the Gospel of John it tells us "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14.And the Word BECAME FLESH (Jesus Christ) and dwelt among us.... You can freely choose by FAITH - whether to believe this or reject it. By FAITH I believe it's the truth. By FAITH you do not. But we both believe all that we believe by faith regardless what it is.
@jvsm1971 "By FAITH I believe it's the truth. By FAITH you do not"
I need to put emphasis on this. This is a fundamental flaw in your thinking.
By faith you believe it's true. I LACK that faith! I don't share your faith. I DON'T think it's true. So I DON'T have faith that it is true. You need faith to accept something as true. You need to believe something to be a christian. You don't need to believe something to not be a christian.
@ScientificBob Essentially, you and I were not around when Jesus was around. You have chosen to believe that something did or didn't happen by FAITH. THAT's the point im making.
@jvsm1971 "You have chosen to believe that something did or didn't happen by FAITH" Again, this is a reasoning error.
It doesn't matter who was there and who wasn't. The fact of the matter is that there is this claim that X happened for which there isn't a single shred of evidence.
This means that you need faith to believe it. If you don't have such faith - then you don't believe it.
Do you need faith to reject the koran, zeus, thor, lochness monster, etc? No? Didn't think so.
@jvsm1971 "But we both believe all that we believe by faith regardless what it is."
This is so disastrously wrong that I wonder if you are a Poe. But sadly, I fear that you are being serious.
You don't need faith to know that tomorrow the sun will come up. You don't need faith to believe that you'll plummeth to your death when you jump from the empire state building.
And for future reference (again): first demonstrate why your bible matters before using it.
@ScientificBob What do you mean first demonstrate why my bible matters before using it? Doesn't make any sense. and regarding everything you believe is or isn't true....on a deeper level, when you really meditate on it, you will come to realise that you rely on FAITH to stand on whatever "truth" you think you have. What do you stand on about your origins? About why you exist? About what happens when you die? What your purpose is on earth? Dont you get it?? Everything you believe is by FAITH.
@jvsm1971 "What do you mean first demonstrate why my bible matters before using it?" Your bible is a book filled with claims. Those claims need to be substantiated by things outside of the bible. If such evidence doesn't exist, then your bible isn't worth a penny more then a koran or the baghavad gita.
"Everything you believe is by FAITH." No. You can repeat it all you want, but it's not. Contact me on pm if you wish to learn more about that. 500-char posts are annoying.
@ScientificBob It can vary from child to child. A child has reached the age of accountability once he or she has the ability of making a decision for or against Christ by faith.Some Jewish Rabbis teach accountability is approx 13yrs. However, every single human that has ever existed including babies, would have to receive Christ as Saviour..in order to receive a new body,mind,heart. Our bodies physicaly cannot enter into His Kingdom because it's in a fallen corrupt state.We need renewing.
@jvsm1971 It's funny how you didn't really answered my question and instead started preaching again.
So I'll go with the 13yr stuff, since that's the closest you gave to an answer.
So... if a 12-year old, 30 minutes before his 13th birthday, takes his dad's AK47, kills a bunch of people and then gets shot himself by the cops... He goes to paradise?
@ScientificBob Im not God, I dont know what would happen to a 12yr old. Do I believe by what I know of the God of the bible that He would UNJUSTLY throw ANYONE into Hell? NO.What question did I not answer? Jesus Christ has His Kingdom and He has His laws which require that we are all changed from the inside out in order to receive everlasting life.If that doesn't appeal to you, then fine! Jesus respects your "rights" to reject the ONLY provision made to reconcile man back to God.YOUR CHOICE.
Being appealing is never a good reason to believe something.
If my wife is cheating on me, it might "sound appealing" to not believe it. But that wouldn't be wise, now would it?
What matters is, is it true? You see, it's very pointless for you to yap about your magical kingdom with unicorns, hippy zombies and angels... What you should be doing is demonstrating that your claims are correct instead of preaching them.
@S Nice talking with you ScientificBob.We could go on and on and on but I have other stuff on my mind...like the return of Jesus Christ &His plans for this earth to be restored..where no more evil and wickedness will exist! that's a Blessed HOPE for me. I hold onto the promises of Jesus more than your empty words any day.Especially these words.."For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in HIM (from the deepest part of their heart) shall be saved.John3:16
@jvsm1971 "respects your "rights" to reject the ONLY provision made to reconcile man back to God"
Or WHAT?! I get tortured for eternity I bet. You're not gonna scare me witht he boogy man and you're not gonna scare me with medieval delusions dude.
Funny though, how this deity of choice of yours messed up so hard that he had to come down and sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from his own wrath.
Freaking hilarious. I bet you also believe in the talking snake.
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
The only reason people say the argument matters is because they have an agenda, that agenda is to demonise another group of people who at the end of the day are human beings with feelings. People have a lot invested in this argument because it gives them the opportunity to push there *Them vs us* agenda on the rest of us.
Gnostic knows for a fact, agnostic does not know. Theist believes in God and atheist does not. Gnostic theist and gnostic atheist knows for a fact that their belief is valid (at least they claim so). Agnostic theist and agnostic atheist do not know for certain if there is facts backing their belief.
Unicorns! Bah, Don't be rediculous. Everyone knows Babies are devout Pastafarians, giving votive offerings to the great F.S.M. by dumping pasta out on their heads in worship to his noodley might!
No open atheists in congress? Oh dear. What a bloody mess. This means religion needs to be challenged by everyone, anywhere it sticks its ugly nose in.
Okay, here's the experiment: massive baby swapping! If any child independantly acquires the religion of it's biological parents in spite of the adopted parent's theism then you can prove that religion is at least genetic.
History would seem to indicate humans have a natural tendency toward superstition and a belief in gods or a god. This doesn't validate supernatural belief but it is certainly an important fact about humans.
Humans are not as rational as we would like to believe, but we are hopefully evolving to a more sane way of conducting our affairs.
Babies are cute but incredibly ignorant to the ways of the world so there is no need to concern myself with what babies believe.
I have often wondered why people are not open atheists in high places. I even thought Dwkins was an open atheist until I heard & read his discintion that he can over claim to be a teapot agnostic & how Harris argue that the term atheism is a meningless term in & of itself.
Them someone pointed me to Wine's account of it & I concur, atheism cannot exist without theism & 'ignorance' is the default position & thus, 'ignosticism' is the most accurate term to define how I think about bullshit!
@CityzenJane Heh, my wife and I had an argument (friendly :) ) about my using that term. In the end run I conceded her point that it doesn't quite cover exactly what it is that goes on in a child's mind during the years where the ego begins to develop.
The problem is we really don't have a good word to describe it. Probably because we're adults and our minds are so different from them.
@TheTruePooka If we can get past those threads of buddhism that insist on divinities - they do have good descriptors for cognitive states.... baby mind might have a hint of what they aim at with all that work they do - a return to the "all" with no differentiation between you and everything... But yeah - it ain't proto Christian or proto-Jewish..... What you are religiously is an accident 90% of the time of the family you were born into.
@C I agree,but God in the scriptures wont save anyone just for simply born into a christian denomination or jewish.It doesn't matter what "religious" background u are born into,Muslim,Jewish,Christian,Hindu,Buddhism-whatever.The only thing that saves any one of us,is coming to a place in your heart understanding that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh who willingly suffered&died in ur place for all YOUR/hatred/bitterness/jealousy/covetousness/greed/anger/selfrighteousness/arrogance/pride.
@jvsm1971 hmmm... you do realize you're spamming off-YT sites, which is technically against their policy?
And I know this may shock you but I have no hatred or bitterness about your religion.
My only problem with it is those here in America who are trying to force other free Americans to follow your belief by making it law.
I also have a problem when adherents of your religion that do violence against others in the name of your God. As long as you're doing that - you're the enemy in my book.
@T Spamming off YT sites?NO.Im a mother,sitting in my kitchen, texting u what I have read in the Word.u should read it yourself &see what u dig up that conflicts with mainstream "religion". I dont know what to think with that comment.STRANGE.Im not in a "religion".All religions are cheap counterfeits of the real thing, Relationship with the King of kings.Outside of a personal, real, conscious relationship with HIM, it's all just "religion" & religion is dead.U cant FORCE people to believe.
@T How can u say Im spamming?What did I say that made u think I was stealing info from others?By the way,the Gospel (good news - that Jesus Christ took our deserved death penalty upon Himself so that we dont have to if we choose Him to be LORD&KING in our hearts) IS FREE.no one can "earn" it by trying to be good with outwardly good deeds/efforts. HE sees the HEART. and it's the heart He PROMISES to change. Not one of us will ever make it by being a goody,only by trusting in Him can we be saved.
@jvsm1971 Because you're posting links to outside sites - the definition of spamming. You're exhibiting a classic arrogance; that because you think your faith is true, it makes you above rules/ the law. That sort of thinking leads to the death, torture and suffering of others.
If you'd like I can link you to the TOS and you can read it for yourself.
@TheTruePooka Im posting links to outside sites?? WHERE?? Im exhibiting arrogance HOW? By saying what the bible says in light of what you're saying? That's arrogance? You have assumed everything you have stated is a biblical fact while gleaning your information from "religious" doctrines which men have written for their own puposes..You have the freedom to express your unbelief and believe it's the truth, just as I have the freedom to express my belief & believe it's the truth.HUH?
I'm glad that you specified "open" atheist. Given the number of legislators and the correlation between IQ and belief, there have to be plenty of "closet" atheists in there. Of course, those atheists would be dishonest political scumbags and I wouldn't want to be associated with them anyway... separate topic.
I think you may a good point my friend, perhaps I should modify my stance that it SHOULD be a silly argument. I was unaware that some of the fundies out there are trying to argue the 'all babies are theist' postilion as it seems quite obviously untrue.
@RationalRoundtable Some do. I'm really not sure how many. More commonly theists will just assume such a thing until it is challenged because such a concept is in their belief-comfort zone.
I know this 'cause I used to think all babies were theists when I was one - at least until I was challenged on that belief. (a theist, not a baby :D)
@TheTruePooka saying that theistic thinking doesn't develop in kids until 2 years doesn't nullify the fact that babies are born with belief in a single god.what we say is that if a person grows up without any interference from any outside source he will grow up to become a believer in 1 god. at least that is for us muslims but i dont know about other theists.
@TheTruePooka true, but notice that it doesnt go like this u choose a religion that u know is from god and hasnt been corrupted by men then u believe in such things
@ahmadov Actually if you look at the demographics of each country and the different religions each has (over the decades) it becomes fairly clear that children for the most part go along with some version of whatever is the social norm.
@TheTruePooka that is why i said "without external interferance" .their is a hadith about prophet mohammad that each person is born with believe in one god but then he gets the religion of his parents, so what u are saying is also right
@ahmadov It would have to be true for everyone (not just Muslims) for your statement to make any sense. To claim babies are born with a belief in a single god, is to ignore the human history of multiple gods. Religion is a learned behavior and left to there own and without indoctrination, children will not develop any particular belief.
It also begs the question of what god Middle-Eastern babies believed in before Allah?
@OWC2000 what are u talking about, i didnt tell u they will be muslims, i just said that they will be believers in one god,what u said about them having other beliefs afterwards is right, that is what i said "eithout external interference" . when i said atleast for us muslims i meant that this is how we look at the matter.
@ahmadov I never said that they would be Muslims either.
There is no evidence to support your statement whatsoever. Children who are Muslims (Christians etc) are only Muslims (Christians etc) because they are born in a Muslims (Christian etc) country or raised by Muslims (Christians etc). If this was not the case we would see Muslims and Christians being born outside the reaches of the prevailing religious dogma, which never happens.
@OWC2000 religion is something and belief in 1 god is something else.i believe what i say because im a muslim but i dont expect u to believe it as u dont believe in my religion in first place but im just putting pooka in light of what we believe so he doesnt make a mistake when addressing this subject
@ahmadov I believe that all religions are equal and true for the person who believes in them so in that respect I do believe in your religion.
However you can not come to any defined notion of god without indoctrination, so to claim that Muslim babies are born with the sense of one god is without validation.
@OWC2000 as i said i dont expect u to believe in my religion for what i said .all people believe that their religion is the true religion but that doesnt mean that all these religions are true or false.and again i tell u that i dont expect u to believe in what i said and i told u i mentioned it for pooka to know our stance. as i said i believe in this because i believe in allah so i dont need a validation for this. i got the validation to believe in allah however.
@OWC2000 what are u talking about, i didnt tell u they will be muslims, i just said that they will be believers in one god,what u said about them having other beliefs afterwards is right, that is what i said "eithout external interference" . when i said atleast for us muslims i meant that this is how we look at the matter.
@socrates856 It comes down to definition. The original word literally does mean "without god" or rather a negation of theism, but was probably almost immediately used mostly to degrade people that didn't believe in your religion. Simply not believing isn't strong enough, they are denying, godless, rejecting the gods. Problem is, there haven't been many atheists around to change it. Most people didn't want the title and some because of the "denial" or belief that it's a belief. We are around now.
That is because 'atheos' or 'atheism' used to be a charge & punishable just as 'heresy'.
The parralell to this is 'adultery'. While the charge of adultery is dropped, it does not change the act of adultery thus you do not have people declaring themsleves 'adulterists' as a distinction of their being.
Besides, if not 1 person can adequately supply a qualtifyable definition of 'god' that is not unfalsiable, then how can anyone have any opinion or position on it? = Ignosticism.
@MilitantPeaceist The point in the definition is that atheism is defined as "without a theistic belief" or "not thiesm". Well, that's what the whole discussion is about. "Person A came to find Z to be true. Person B did not." This kind of shows it. That second statement is like the word "atheist". Can you tell if the person found the first one to be false? Did they try to find and didn't find it true? Did they just not do anything with no action involved?
Wrong. Atheism is the counter to theism. It is not 'without' as that is only one translation from ancient greek & in grrek, 'a' is applied in many contextx that can be translated to 'without/ lack of/ non/ not/ opposite & quite a few more as well.
In this case, it is the opposite to the 'claim of god' Not the belief, not the person & not the religion. It is straight forward.
To top it off, atheism could not exist without theism so by that 9without) logic, theists are aAtheists
@MilitantPeaceist You'd think. I agree with you, but the argument is far from over even with other atheists. That's who I'm arguing with currently. I tried arguing the first premise, because the name only exists because "theism" became the norm. Otherwise we would just be normal, and hopefully will be in the future.
Normal? Who the bloody hell are you reffering to? Not me hopefully xD
Yesh, while I do not think theism can be irradicated because of the mere presense of history books (& we shall not be religious twats in destroying books with any indicators of god in it), this chicken & egg puzzle has been solved 8p
@CraniumOnEmpty Yes absolutely. It used to be that the dominant group defined the word. They still do but there is enough of a pushback that it's no longer a default win by force.
All babies are blah-blah-blah. It doesn't matter. Just more pointless YT...oh you get the point.
But a note on Pete Stark. It is worth noting that he was first elected to the US House of Representatives in 1972. He came out as an atheist 35 years later. Would he have been elected had his religious beliefs been known in '72? Would he have been re-elected if it came out after only one or two terms? I think not.
@PJsCreed I'm not sure. He says that back then religion in politics wasn't as big a deal. But I can't help but remember the animosity that Madelyn O'Hair received in the 70's. Of course, she was a bitch. :D
@matur1n, I did not realize that not all Christian denominations hold this belief either, I could have been more specific I suppose. But I don't believe babies are born any particular religion, it is learned.
@mature1n, the particular brands of religion I grew up in believed in original sin. But I don't represent these beliefs anymore and I'm not trying to defend or debate them.
My belief is that if you don't believe anything, than you are an Atheist, there for you cannot escape religion as a subject, so everybody actually has some sort of religion. Babies are the exception, they can't think for themselves, nor comprehend the world around them, so they have no belief system yet. I am a Christian, however, I believe this to be true.
Even if it's the default position, it still doesn't do anything to prove their religion right.
FHomeBrew 1 week ago
pet the cat? is that like spank the monkey?
skippydeenice 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Saying that people who disagree with the ruling class are ill and defected, and to be cured by pumping enough drugs their brain cant function enough to disagree, is typical of a fascist nation, so why wouldnt the US do it?
rodrigodet 1 week ago
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rodrigodet 1 week ago
How would a child know about the god bullshit unless it's taught to them. Fuck that shit anyone can tell nephy is full of shit. No kids are born knowing.
krapptacular 1 week ago
i dont know if he is an athiest but peter stark of california is the only non-theist
RicniLotra 1 week ago
@RicniLotra At the time I did this I was having a hard time getting confirmation that he had stated publicly he was an atheist. It turns out he was.
TheTruePooka 1 week ago
There are OBVIOUSLY chemical imbalances in your brain Pooka ;)
pythor2 1 week ago
@pythor2 Damn straight.
1GodOnlyOne 1 week ago
@1GodOnlyOne Well, at least I got a believer to fall for my poe.
pythor2 1 week ago
Are retarded babies atheist?
1GodOnlyOne 1 week ago 2
@1GodOnlyOne What age?
TheTruePooka 1 week ago
@1GodOnly you called me a bunch of names then blocked me?whats your problem you right wing nut?maybe retarded babies are atheists but adult theist are retarded.you brainless twit
alltiedup217 1 week ago
@TheTruePooka There might be some truth to the argument that atheists have "something horribly wrong with you, you're a damaged misfit". After all, I was brought up in a Catholic household. LOL
cablepanos 2 months ago
I can't find it but I saw a video a year or so ago that addressed this issue from a Christian.
The subject was what happens to a baby when they die since they haven't accepted Jesus or God or whatever. The response was or close to "if we pray really hard for the baby and your friends do then they go to heaven".
2Addicted2YT 2 months ago
Ok we all know that Conservapedia is not to be taken the least bit seriously.
HorrorIllogium 2 months ago
@HorrorIllogium Unfortunately the "all" only applies to sane people XD
hildegain 2 months ago
is atheism the rejection of the concept of god or an unawareness of the concept of god? babies are unaware of pretty much all concepts, it has no relevance to the concepts validity.
blahblahfeckinblah 2 months ago
@blahblahfeckinblah There is "implicit" atheism vs "explicit" atheism. A conscious rejection of God concepts would be explicit atheism. Never having heard of the God concept is; "implicit atheism".
And the only relevance the argument has in our culture is how it relates to the; "victory via Majority opinion" argument. Just because "Majority Opinion" is a fallacy doesn't mean the basis for that fallacy isn't wrong and shouldn't be corrected.
TheTruePooka 2 months ago
@TheTruePooka I'm just saying, babies are unaware of the existence of pretty much everything, factual and fictional. I live in the UK so the idea of babies being theists isn't really something that needs arguing against.
blahblahfeckinblah 2 months ago
@blahblahfeckinblah Your country is saner than mine.
TheTruePooka 2 months ago 4
@TheTruePooka Still sucks but yeah.
hildegain 2 months ago
Actually new born baby are not born Atheist. Because THEY DONT KNOW SHIT. In order to be atheist. You have to at least know what the fuck god is. If anything there born agnostic.
Lone432345 2 months ago
@Lone432345 Atheist - Without belief in god.
Do you need it to be clearer than that???
hildegain 2 months ago
@PatriotTeaBagger if you dont wish that on anyone why do you spew your hatred while hiding behind your godsign?
np02058 5 months ago
Unicorns?Theists? XD
Excuse me for jumping in out the blue,but I guess I was gormless and mentally ill enough to think that being human was the default position...
LZJoZ 5 months ago
babies aren't atheists or theists. babies are like a blank hard drive, they carry within them the hardware to install later programming. Turn on a computer with a blank hard drive, and it will hum away doing nothing in particular. Depending on who owns the computer will determine what is installed. Babies have only the most basic understanding: cry for food, for mommy etc. They are essentially blank. they really cant be labeled anything other than poop machines.
ikanipo 6 months ago
@ikanipo babies are not complete blank drives. that would imply that everything about them stems from nurture but a lot of what people are stems from nature and their genetics. that is why two twins raised in the same environment and the same parenting end up having completely different personalities.
triniman2408 6 months ago
@triniman2408 I agree, which is why I said whoever owns a computer determines its usage. The computer has comes with the base hardware and programs needed to operate, the but the owner will later determine how it will be used. Like babies who are born with the base instincts and the parents later determine how they are raised. You re-hashed everything I said in my original comment.
ikanipo 6 months ago
@ikanipo a large deal of who we are such as our personality comes from nature not nurture. because i have 3 siblings and we were all raised in very similar environments and we all very different from each other.
triniman2408 6 months ago
I think that all babies are Atheists argument is missing a bigger point.
In fact I think it's a weak argument, just because babies don't believe in god doesn't mean he's not real, I mean God probably isn't real, but 'a baby doesn't believe in something so it's weak' is not an argument. Babies aren't born biologists, does that hinder evolution? No.
The bigger picture is that babies are born ignorant and ideologies should not be forced on them, but education, the best path to the truth.
MarkArandjus 6 months ago
@MarkArandjus The point of the babies are atheists argument is simply to point out the default position, that the burden of proof lies on the theist to change us from the default state. Or to bring light to Dawkins dislike of labeling children by the religion of their parents.
I have never, ever heard anyone ever say that "Babies are atheists, therefore there is no god." I don't know where people get the idea that this is the point. It's a laughably stupid claim that no-one would make.
Sines314 6 months ago
I don't discourage them from being Christian, though. I respect their right to believe or disbelieve on their own.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
Sorry. They didn't know anything about it until they met children with Christian parents. When they asked what it was, I told them that some people believe this and when they asked if I believed it, I told them I did not. But before that they had no concept of a god or even believe one was necessary.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
I'm an atheist and my children didn't know anything about the mythology called Christianity. I decided to let them discover it on their own, look into it if they want to and reject it on their own.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
@TheNextTwilightZone I see, but what I was getting at is babies are not born with any concept of belief, life death, love etc. they, for the most part, must be taught these things. Also I think you're alluding to babies being a creation of some higher power so, why is it that children need to be bombarded with religious nonsense from birth? Wouldn't God or whoever you think already instilled these beliefs?
SuperJBrowne 7 months ago
@SuperJBrowne Wouldn't that make a baby, by default, an Atheist?
SuperJBrowne 7 months ago
@TheNextTwilightZone Babies are born but how do they have belief in god unless they're indoctrinated? Shouldn't that belief be inherent from birth? I grew with the understanding that religion exists and by choice you can believe what you want, I'm an athiest btw.
SuperJBrowne 7 months ago
Never thought of myself as a discriminated minority.....
AtomicBoom22 7 months ago
What about the opisote side though? what are the motives of atheist's saying "all babies are atheists"? personaly I don't understand the motive dehind that statment and what it means. i'm not convinced it is always just a counter to "teisim is the defalt position".
greenelf12 7 months ago
It is really liberating when you cast off the yoke of religion. No more tap-dancing for jeebus, trying to explain all the holes in the plot that can be found in the bible.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
@jvsm, what difference does it make how old job's children were? Isn't god more powerful than Satan? Why did he allow them to be killed?
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
I've often found myself insisting that atheism isn't the default position, but not because I think people automatically believe in God. My view was that babies are neutral in this regard. They haven't yet developed the necessary concepts to be considered either.
I must admit, this still makes babies atheists in the same way as tress, rocks and rotting corpses. Not having a belief on the matter, they couldn't be said to believe in God. But I think actual atheism involves a little more thought.
Fatpie42 7 months ago
Religion was never pushed onto me, my mother let me discover it on my own and I did. And after some study, I realized I had no use for it. Atheists don't hate god, you can't hate something that you believe was a myth created by man to explain the world and it's workings.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
My children knew nothing of god or his religion until they heard about it from other children. I will not expose them to these beliefs, but if they happen to discover it on their own and adopt those beliefs, I won't discourage them. I can't push my beliefs or non beliefs on my children, just seems wrong to me.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
@jvsm, god let job's children die to defend his vanity. God flooded the world supposedly and I imagine children died in that, also. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, probably some children lived there, too. Yeah, god was all about protecting the lives of children.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
@S JOBSsons&daughters lived for a very long time.This was before the flood.So chances are they couldve been hundreds of yrs old at the time,but we dont know if they were small children.The book of Job reveals something about Job to all of us &perhaps God chose Job to endure this in order to help us in times of great distress.In all of Jobs tragedies,Job always had God placed FIRST in his Heart.His circumstances never became idols.He seekd God at all times.Jobs family were taken to AbrahasBosom.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@Supe re JOB. To say that Yahweh/God is evil for allowing satan to destroy Jobs TEMPORAL life - TEMPORARILY - is not the truth. And the account of JOB is more about the FAITH of Job when being savagely brutally attacked by the g-od of this world who is satan. satan is the fallen angel who CURRENTLY has dominion over this earth. And he roams the earth seeking whom he can devour.Not until Yahweh(Yeshua aka Jesus Christ) returns and establishes HIS Kingdom will there be PEACE.Satan is the destroyer
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm, you say that your god wouldn't sent babies to hell because that would make him cruel and unjust, then how about in the old testament where soldiers were commanded to stab pregnant women in the stomach so it will kill the unborn child also.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
@SuperD I asnwered this question to another on this channel about the very same thing. You must do a comprehensive study on the NEPHILIM,RAPHAIM etc and find out WHAT THEY WERE. Whether you believe the account given - IS YOUR CHOICE - but there is a VERY significant reason WHY God instructed the killing of men,women,pregnant women,children - and ALL their livestock AND to destroy all their FOOD. You will at least be informed with the correct account whether u believe or not.it's up to u.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
No. Babies cannot consciously reject Yahweh.Babies dont consciously despise, hate, mock, ridicule, blaspheme Yahweh to be "atheist". Babies are born under the curse of Adam.thus they are born into sin and into corrupt bodies that need to be restored renewed and healed from the inside out.Jesus does that.ALL Babies are NOT ACCOUNTABLE when they die & go straight to Heaven.But you atheists ARE all accountable and will stand before Him and give account unless you choose Jesus to HEAL ur heart.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 I don't hate Yaweh - that would make me a theist.
And according to the doctrine of baptism babies actually don't go to heavenif they aren't baptized. Where do you think the concept of limbo comes from? IT was developed because Christians didn't have the stomach to stay true to their doctrine and say that babies who die before baptism burn in hell forever.
And btw - you're contradicting yourself. Either you follow the catholic belief you stated and they go to hell or you -(cont)
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTruePooka Im not a catholic.... Im not any denomination. Neither were the apostles!! They were jewish men who loved Jesus and knew He was their Messiah,King,Saviour and God. Men have perverted to suit themselves,the teaching in theWord. The POPES brought about all these changes and created their own doctrines around the bible to control people through fear.People at the time were forbidden to read for themselves the Word and trusted these wicked men to tell them the truth.Hence all the lies.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 (cont) Protestant belief - which is often merely apologetics to avoid the unsettling belief that your religion dictates that babies burn and suffer for all eternity.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTru I wasn't talking about "protestant" doctrine. Im talking about what is written in the bible... and yes, babies burning in hell is UNBIBLICAL teaching - it's not found anywhere. No one is put into "hell" until they have been fully judged and have given full account of their lives. White Throne Judgement(END OF AGE) for all unbelievers &Bema Seat Judgement for all believers. 2different judgements. Babies are NOT judged.But everyone else who is of the age of accountability will be judged.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 your incorrect dude because children are born with knowledge of nothing its the elder or parent that must teach the child. so you stand corrected..
viego215 7 months ago
@viego215 "incorrect" according to what?? Not according to the Word - and based on the Word. Babies are NOT accountable and they are NOT appointed to perish/suffer the wrath of God. That would make Yahweh evil and unjust - which HE is not. You have chosen to believe otherwise to suit your preconceived ideas about Yahweh/God of the bible. but show me a scritpture where God throws babies into hell..... God judges all of us who are accountable and the MOTIVES in our HEARTS.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 doesnt god tell joshua to sack entire villages and rip the pregnant women open and bash their children on rocks? you better read your holy book dude. as a matter of fact its not a hard fact to see.cause if you were born into a muslim family you would be a muslim if you were born in jerusalem you would probly be jewish. so no matter how much u quote your scriptures you will be wrong every time your book says one thing but reality says the opposite so stop lying to yourself its useless
viego215 7 months ago
@v You should know, that Joshua was instructed to kill slaughter ALL "NEPHILIM".. and if you know your bible, you will know WHAT they are. Again, you're assuming God saves you if you happen to be born into the right kind of family. That is not the truth. The truth (in the bible) is that God will save ANYONE who calls upon HIS name.Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER(muslim,catholic,hindu,atheist) calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (from their HEART) SHALL BE SAVED.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "And it shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER(muslim,catholic,hindu,atheist) calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (from their HEART) SHALL BE SAVED."
Right, but that is not answering the point viego is making. He says that if you are born into a hindu family, you probably won't be calling upon JC. Just like you, a christian, won't be calling upon Vishnu any time soon. Because that's simply not what you have been told to do. And thus not what you believe.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob Well, I beg to differ...many peoples from all nations are turning to Jesus. He is appearing to men/women and children in dreams and visions particularly in countries where christianity is a crime.You will find many "underground" believers in China,Iran,Yemen,India,Indonesia etc who have had a supernatural encounter with Jesus and have left everything to follow Him.Many even today are being crucified (Iraq) and tortured for trusting in Him.Would you willingly face that for a lie.?
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "many peoples from all nations are turning to Jesus" But the vast majority sticks to its own religion.
Just like many people from all nations are turning to mohammed or buddha, but the vast majority sticks to its own religion.
"Would you willingly face that for a lie" Would you willingly blow yourself up for a lie?
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@S That all nations haven't come to foot of the cross yet,doesnt negate His Word.His prophetic Word is still unfolding.That it hasn't fully transpired doesn't make God a liar.His Word says the following must happenfirst.1World Government(NWO),1World LEADER(Antichrist)1WorldCURRENCY,1World RELIGION(a blend of ALL "religions" EXCLUDING those who truly LOVE the Lord Jesus Christ who dont compromise on HIS Word).WW3in Middle EAst.Jerusalem DIVIDED.Damascus DESTROYED.THEN the nations turn to HIM.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 Dude, what the fuck are you yapping about?
Are you capable of staying on topic?
I'm really not interested in your delusions and conspiracy theories.
Or your preaching.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob No. I wouldn't kill myself or anyone else for what I believe. Im commanded to LOVE my NEIGHBOUR- good or bad. But as a believer and follower of Jesus Christ and because I believe He is THE Truth, I will not, ever give up my faith in Him even if it means I must be persecuted for it, or even killed for it.A believer in Jesus dies because they love Him and TRUST Him. if you're implying that is the same as Jihad, then I suggest you dig a little deeper into the MOTIVES Jihad.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 Motives are the same here. Blind faith that some sky daddy commands you to behave a certain way. You are completely missing the point. You argued that your religion probably isn't a lie because some people have given their life and were tortured etc. Jihadis also give their life because they trust in their god. If strong blind faith gives a claim more weight, it should apply here too.
If it doesn't work for the jihadis, why does it work for your religion of choice?
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 really? do you think any of those people that died on 9/11 called to be saved by god when they were jumping out of the windows and into their death? cuz i dont remember anyone that jumped surviving. the truth is all you have is a old book full of stories and contradiction and if their was only one god their would only be one religion. i dont ask for much just some proof
viego215 7 months ago
Again, please show me where God sends babies to HELL for all eternity...
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@viego215 so its ok for god to tell you to kill a bunch of people but if he sends them to a place that doesnt exist sense you cant prove that it does its ok? one mare question how can your religion be the right one their have be plenty of other religions before yours? why isnt zues real? he is a god after all.
viego215 7 months ago
@viego215 God instructed Joshua to kill all NEPHILIM. You must do a study on this before condemning the God of the scriptures.God has never told me to kill people.Jesus instructs us to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOUR-whoever they might be,friend or enemy.My "religion"? well I thank God i dont have a "religion".Religion is counterfeit to the real deal which is a full on relationship with our Creator, Jesus Christ's sacrifice bridging the divide between fallen man and Holy God.Zeus is satan is real.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@v I believe trusting in Jesus Christ to save me from utter destruction is the truth as Im living proof I CANT change anything about myself deep inside - and neither can any "religion". "religion" is a show we put on to impress ourselvs and others. It's fake and it relies on your own self importance, knowledge,wisdom,efforts,good deeds, to "save"..whereas, Jesus says no one can do it...but I CAN.. if you just trust in ME I will clean up the darkest parts of your heart.That's how I know, for me.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 Funny how you think religion is fake and in the same breath quote your particular religion of choice as "evidence" that you must be correct about that.
Your argument works because your argument works because your argument works because your argument works because your argument works because your argument is circular, dumbass.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ I said it was the truth-TO ME! Based on what I understand.U are free to believe in whatever u like, &u are free to believe u know the truth also.My argument works? It's not an arguement. Im pointing out what the BIBLE does NOT say in relation to babies. Im stating a biblical fact - whether you choose to believe the bible or disregard it - is your CHOICE.I have CHOSEN to believe in the Word. I believe Jesus IS the WORD made flesh. You dont need to insult people just bcos u dont share same view.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "whether you choose to believe the bible or disregard it - is your CHOICE" Actually, no... it's not. I don't 'choose' what I believe. I believe what can convince me according to an appropriate standard. I'm intellectually too honest to 'choose' what I believe.
"I believe Jesus IS the WORD made flesh" This is completely meaningless. It's just english words strung together but it says nothing and is completely non-sensical.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob You believe "according to an appropriate standard"? what's that then? My standard is the Word. That's what I live by. And you, tell me what standards you live by and who sets them for you? You say you dont choose what you believe? WHAT? that makes NO sense.Of coarse you choose what you believe.You think you can stand before Jesus Christ and say "but but but, i didn't know enough to believe in You"? Coarse you know enough to believe. The truth is, YOU HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO BELIEVE.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "My standard is the Word" So you stone your desobedient children?
"tell me what standards you live by" Reason and evidence.
"who sets them for you" I do, who else?
"You say you dont choose what you believe? WHAT? that makes NO sense" It does if you care wheter or not your beliefs are actually correct. Could you choose right now to believe in santa claus from this point on? And honestly believe it?
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob Jesus Christ is also known as The Word. If you read the bible (you can get themfor free online) in the Gospel of John it tells us "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14.And the Word BECAME FLESH (Jesus Christ) and dwelt among us.... You can freely choose by FAITH - whether to believe this or reject it. By FAITH I believe it's the truth. By FAITH you do not. But we both believe all that we believe by faith regardless what it is.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971
Not sure how your discussion got to this point, but you are now actively proselytising. That's really not cool.
Fatpie42 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "By FAITH I believe it's the truth. By FAITH you do not"
I need to put emphasis on this. This is a fundamental flaw in your thinking.
By faith you believe it's true. I LACK that faith! I don't share your faith. I DON'T think it's true. So I DON'T have faith that it is true. You need faith to accept something as true. You need to believe something to be a christian. You don't need to believe something to not be a christian.
Print it out and hang it over your bed.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob Essentially, you and I were not around when Jesus was around. You have chosen to believe that something did or didn't happen by FAITH. THAT's the point im making.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "You have chosen to believe that something did or didn't happen by FAITH" Again, this is a reasoning error.
It doesn't matter who was there and who wasn't. The fact of the matter is that there is this claim that X happened for which there isn't a single shred of evidence.
This means that you need faith to believe it. If you don't have such faith - then you don't believe it.
Do you need faith to reject the koran, zeus, thor, lochness monster, etc? No? Didn't think so.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "But we both believe all that we believe by faith regardless what it is."
This is so disastrously wrong that I wonder if you are a Poe. But sadly, I fear that you are being serious.
You don't need faith to know that tomorrow the sun will come up. You don't need faith to believe that you'll plummeth to your death when you jump from the empire state building.
And for future reference (again): first demonstrate why your bible matters before using it.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob What do you mean first demonstrate why my bible matters before using it? Doesn't make any sense. and regarding everything you believe is or isn't true....on a deeper level, when you really meditate on it, you will come to realise that you rely on FAITH to stand on whatever "truth" you think you have. What do you stand on about your origins? About why you exist? About what happens when you die? What your purpose is on earth? Dont you get it?? Everything you believe is by FAITH.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "What do you mean first demonstrate why my bible matters before using it?" Your bible is a book filled with claims. Those claims need to be substantiated by things outside of the bible. If such evidence doesn't exist, then your bible isn't worth a penny more then a koran or the baghavad gita.
"Everything you believe is by FAITH." No. You can repeat it all you want, but it's not. Contact me on pm if you wish to learn more about that. 500-char posts are annoying.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 Soooo... from what age are we accountable? That's quite important to know, is it not?
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob It can vary from child to child. A child has reached the age of accountability once he or she has the ability of making a decision for or against Christ by faith.Some Jewish Rabbis teach accountability is approx 13yrs. However, every single human that has ever existed including babies, would have to receive Christ as Saviour..in order to receive a new body,mind,heart. Our bodies physicaly cannot enter into His Kingdom because it's in a fallen corrupt state.We need renewing.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 It's funny how you didn't really answered my question and instead started preaching again.
So I'll go with the 13yr stuff, since that's the closest you gave to an answer.
So... if a 12-year old, 30 minutes before his 13th birthday, takes his dad's AK47, kills a bunch of people and then gets shot himself by the cops... He goes to paradise?
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@ScientificBob Im not God, I dont know what would happen to a 12yr old. Do I believe by what I know of the God of the bible that He would UNJUSTLY throw ANYONE into Hell? NO.What question did I not answer? Jesus Christ has His Kingdom and He has His laws which require that we are all changed from the inside out in order to receive everlasting life.If that doesn't appeal to you, then fine! Jesus respects your "rights" to reject the ONLY provision made to reconcile man back to God.YOUR CHOICE.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "If that doesn't appeal to you"
Being appealing is never a good reason to believe something.
If my wife is cheating on me, it might "sound appealing" to not believe it. But that wouldn't be wise, now would it?
What matters is, is it true? You see, it's very pointless for you to yap about your magical kingdom with unicorns, hippy zombies and angels... What you should be doing is demonstrating that your claims are correct instead of preaching them.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@S Nice talking with you ScientificBob.We could go on and on and on but I have other stuff on my mind...like the return of Jesus Christ &His plans for this earth to be restored..where no more evil and wickedness will exist! that's a Blessed HOPE for me. I hold onto the promises of Jesus more than your empty words any day.Especially these words.."For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in HIM (from the deepest part of their heart) shall be saved.John3:16
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 Are you capable of staying on topic, like... EVER?
You are replying to a post in which I said that instead of preaching your claims, you should be demonstrating why your claims are correct.
And what do you reply? Another round of repeating your claims and preaching them.
Shit dude... have some fucking dignity.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 "respects your "rights" to reject the ONLY provision made to reconcile man back to God"
Or WHAT?! I get tortured for eternity I bet. You're not gonna scare me witht he boogy man and you're not gonna scare me with medieval delusions dude.
Funny though, how this deity of choice of yours messed up so hard that he had to come down and sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from his own wrath.
Freaking hilarious. I bet you also believe in the talking snake.
ScientificBob 7 months ago
Just putting it here ^_^
New International Version (©1984)
But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
useurcamera 7 months ago
@useurcamera I think pretty much every religion has a line like that somewhere.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
All babies belong to Haruhiism
Kamidake83 7 months ago
The only one we had was Pete Stark that I know of. T___T
MistressArte 7 months ago
Babies can't have an opinion either way, they're babies!!!
Nagneto 7 months ago
I wonder how many babies start praying right when they come out of the womb. Oh that's right NONE OF THEM DO!
SforzandoFilms 7 months ago
@leeroynaggins, so what?
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
The only reason people say the argument matters is because they have an agenda, that agenda is to demonise another group of people who at the end of the day are human beings with feelings. People have a lot invested in this argument because it gives them the opportunity to push there *Them vs us* agenda on the rest of us.
fivecrownsful 7 months ago
*misinterprets v sign from author comments to be the longbowman's salute* See atheists are rude degenerate scum [/sarcasm and silliness]
SephieRothe 7 months ago
Gnostic knows for a fact, agnostic does not know. Theist believes in God and atheist does not. Gnostic theist and gnostic atheist knows for a fact that their belief is valid (at least they claim so). Agnostic theist and agnostic atheist do not know for certain if there is facts backing their belief.
Knowledge and belief are two different issues.
69soulstone 7 months ago
athiest 2nd least trusted yeah right after stupid Christians
q41n 7 months ago
Unicorns! Bah, Don't be rediculous. Everyone knows Babies are devout Pastafarians, giving votive offerings to the great F.S.M. by dumping pasta out on their heads in worship to his noodley might!
Unicorns indeed.... don't be rediculous.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 7 months ago
No open atheists in congress? Oh dear. What a bloody mess. This means religion needs to be challenged by everyone, anywhere it sticks its ugly nose in.
LAnonHubbard 7 months ago
I asked a baby if he was an atheist or a theist, and he laughed.
phenixwryter 7 months ago 3
One of my videos is linked on the side, I completely forgot I even addressed the issue! Shows how much time I spend on here really.
StanMarsh1 7 months ago
Okay, here's the experiment: massive baby swapping! If any child independantly acquires the religion of it's biological parents in spite of the adopted parent's theism then you can prove that religion is at least genetic.
Now gimme my goddamn grant.
NAFmunchausen 7 months ago
History would seem to indicate humans have a natural tendency toward superstition and a belief in gods or a god. This doesn't validate supernatural belief but it is certainly an important fact about humans.
Humans are not as rational as we would like to believe, but we are hopefully evolving to a more sane way of conducting our affairs.
Babies are cute but incredibly ignorant to the ways of the world so there is no need to concern myself with what babies believe.
JunkmanJim 7 months ago
I have often wondered why people are not open atheists in high places. I even thought Dwkins was an open atheist until I heard & read his discintion that he can over claim to be a teapot agnostic & how Harris argue that the term atheism is a meningless term in & of itself.
Them someone pointed me to Wine's account of it & I concur, atheism cannot exist without theism & 'ignorance' is the default position & thus, 'ignosticism' is the most accurate term to define how I think about bullshit!
MilitantPeaceist 7 months ago
@MilitantPeaceist **typo's from a tired & drained argument**
**distinction** **ever claim** **Harris argues** **meaningless**
MilitantPeaceist 7 months ago
"theistic thinking" - what about "animist thinking" "buddhist thinking" "pantheistic thinking" "pagan thinking"
why do we argue with morons? I guess it's for the youngsters poisoned by this bullshit.
You're awesome Pooka.
CityzenJane 7 months ago
@CityzenJane Heh, my wife and I had an argument (friendly :) ) about my using that term. In the end run I conceded her point that it doesn't quite cover exactly what it is that goes on in a child's mind during the years where the ego begins to develop.
The problem is we really don't have a good word to describe it. Probably because we're adults and our minds are so different from them.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTruePooka If we can get past those threads of buddhism that insist on divinities - they do have good descriptors for cognitive states.... baby mind might have a hint of what they aim at with all that work they do - a return to the "all" with no differentiation between you and everything... But yeah - it ain't proto Christian or proto-Jewish..... What you are religiously is an accident 90% of the time of the family you were born into.
CityzenJane 7 months ago
@C I agree,but God in the scriptures wont save anyone just for simply born into a christian denomination or jewish.It doesn't matter what "religious" background u are born into,Muslim,Jewish,Christian,Hindu,Buddhism-whatever.The only thing that saves any one of us,is coming to a place in your heart understanding that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh who willingly suffered&died in ur place for all YOUR/hatred/bitterness/jealousy/covetousness/greed/anger/selfrighteousness/arrogance/pride.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 hmmm... you do realize you're spamming off-YT sites, which is technically against their policy?
And I know this may shock you but I have no hatred or bitterness about your religion.
My only problem with it is those here in America who are trying to force other free Americans to follow your belief by making it law.
I also have a problem when adherents of your religion that do violence against others in the name of your God. As long as you're doing that - you're the enemy in my book.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@T Spamming off YT sites?NO.Im a mother,sitting in my kitchen, texting u what I have read in the Word.u should read it yourself &see what u dig up that conflicts with mainstream "religion". I dont know what to think with that comment.STRANGE.Im not in a "religion".All religions are cheap counterfeits of the real thing, Relationship with the King of kings.Outside of a personal, real, conscious relationship with HIM, it's all just "religion" & religion is dead.U cant FORCE people to believe.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@T How can u say Im spamming?What did I say that made u think I was stealing info from others?By the way,the Gospel (good news - that Jesus Christ took our deserved death penalty upon Himself so that we dont have to if we choose Him to be LORD&KING in our hearts) IS FREE.no one can "earn" it by trying to be good with outwardly good deeds/efforts. HE sees the HEART. and it's the heart He PROMISES to change. Not one of us will ever make it by being a goody,only by trusting in Him can we be saved.
jvsm1971 7 months ago
@jvsm1971 Because you're posting links to outside sites - the definition of spamming. You're exhibiting a classic arrogance; that because you think your faith is true, it makes you above rules/ the law. That sort of thinking leads to the death, torture and suffering of others.
If you'd like I can link you to the TOS and you can read it for yourself.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTruePooka Im posting links to outside sites?? WHERE?? Im exhibiting arrogance HOW? By saying what the bible says in light of what you're saying? That's arrogance? You have assumed everything you have stated is a biblical fact while gleaning your information from "religious" doctrines which men have written for their own puposes..You have the freedom to express your unbelief and believe it's the truth, just as I have the freedom to express my belief & believe it's the truth.HUH?
jvsm1971 7 months ago
I'm glad that you specified "open" atheist. Given the number of legislators and the correlation between IQ and belief, there have to be plenty of "closet" atheists in there. Of course, those atheists would be dishonest political scumbags and I wouldn't want to be associated with them anyway... separate topic.
6stringbadger 7 months ago
I think you may a good point my friend, perhaps I should modify my stance that it SHOULD be a silly argument. I was unaware that some of the fundies out there are trying to argue the 'all babies are theist' postilion as it seems quite obviously untrue.
RationalRoundtable 7 months ago
@RationalRoundtable Some do. I'm really not sure how many. More commonly theists will just assume such a thing until it is challenged because such a concept is in their belief-comfort zone.
I know this 'cause I used to think all babies were theists when I was one - at least until I was challenged on that belief. (a theist, not a baby :D)
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
Yeah for unicorns!
TIPinkUnicorn 7 months ago 9
@TIPinkUnicorn Isn't that an awesome poster? It's from a museum exhibit from about 20-30 years ago.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTruePooka saying that theistic thinking doesn't develop in kids until 2 years doesn't nullify the fact that babies are born with belief in a single god.what we say is that if a person grows up without any interference from any outside source he will grow up to become a believer in 1 god. at least that is for us muslims but i dont know about other theists.
ahmadov 7 months ago
@ahmadov Your assertion is completely out of left-field, and unsupported. Bzzzt, you fail.
indignant99 7 months ago
@ahmadov Saying it doesn't. But studies, experimentation and research that supports that statement does.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTruePooka true, but notice that it doesnt go like this u choose a religion that u know is from god and hasnt been corrupted by men then u believe in such things
ahmadov 7 months ago
@ahmadov Actually if you look at the demographics of each country and the different religions each has (over the decades) it becomes fairly clear that children for the most part go along with some version of whatever is the social norm.
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@TheTruePooka that is why i said "without external interferance" .their is a hadith about prophet mohammad that each person is born with believe in one god but then he gets the religion of his parents, so what u are saying is also right
ahmadov 7 months ago
@ahmadov It would have to be true for everyone (not just Muslims) for your statement to make any sense. To claim babies are born with a belief in a single god, is to ignore the human history of multiple gods. Religion is a learned behavior and left to there own and without indoctrination, children will not develop any particular belief.
It also begs the question of what god Middle-Eastern babies believed in before Allah?
OWC2000 7 months ago
@OWC2000 what are u talking about, i didnt tell u they will be muslims, i just said that they will be believers in one god,what u said about them having other beliefs afterwards is right, that is what i said "eithout external interference" . when i said atleast for us muslims i meant that this is how we look at the matter.
ahmadov 7 months ago
@ahmadov I never said that they would be Muslims either.
There is no evidence to support your statement whatsoever. Children who are Muslims (Christians etc) are only Muslims (Christians etc) because they are born in a Muslims (Christian etc) country or raised by Muslims (Christians etc). If this was not the case we would see Muslims and Christians being born outside the reaches of the prevailing religious dogma, which never happens.
Religion is a learned behaviour.
OWC2000 7 months ago
@OWC2000 religion is something and belief in 1 god is something else.i believe what i say because im a muslim but i dont expect u to believe it as u dont believe in my religion in first place but im just putting pooka in light of what we believe so he doesnt make a mistake when addressing this subject
ahmadov 7 months ago
@ahmadov I believe that all religions are equal and true for the person who believes in them so in that respect I do believe in your religion.
However you can not come to any defined notion of god without indoctrination, so to claim that Muslim babies are born with the sense of one god is without validation.
OWC2000 7 months ago
@OWC2000 as i said i dont expect u to believe in my religion for what i said .all people believe that their religion is the true religion but that doesnt mean that all these religions are true or false.and again i tell u that i dont expect u to believe in what i said and i told u i mentioned it for pooka to know our stance. as i said i believe in this because i believe in allah so i dont need a validation for this. i got the validation to believe in allah however.
ahmadov 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@OWC2000 what are u talking about, i didnt tell u they will be muslims, i just said that they will be believers in one god,what u said about them having other beliefs afterwards is right, that is what i said "eithout external interference" . when i said atleast for us muslims i meant that this is how we look at the matter.
ahmadov 7 months ago
@ahmadov
"we say is that if a person grows up without any interference from any outside source he will grow up to become a believer in 1 god"
That is total bollocks.
How would that child know about a "god" without being told about it.
Islam is crazy enough without you adding to it.
Pigdowndog 7 months ago
@Pigdowndog very simply allah put that in him when he created us
ahmadov 7 months ago
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@ahmadov
"very simply allah put that in him when he created us"
I did say Islam was crazy.
You have just proved it.
Allah does not exist. He is a fairy story just like all the other "gods".
Pigdowndog 7 months ago
There are many reasons why the baby point is a good and valid one. Kind of weird seeing a bunch of atheists not getting it either.
socrates856 7 months ago
@socrates856 It comes down to definition. The original word literally does mean "without god" or rather a negation of theism, but was probably almost immediately used mostly to degrade people that didn't believe in your religion. Simply not believing isn't strong enough, they are denying, godless, rejecting the gods. Problem is, there haven't been many atheists around to change it. Most people didn't want the title and some because of the "denial" or belief that it's a belief. We are around now.
CraniumOnEmpty 7 months ago
@CraniumOnEmpty
That is because 'atheos' or 'atheism' used to be a charge & punishable just as 'heresy'.
The parralell to this is 'adultery'. While the charge of adultery is dropped, it does not change the act of adultery thus you do not have people declaring themsleves 'adulterists' as a distinction of their being.
Besides, if not 1 person can adequately supply a qualtifyable definition of 'god' that is not unfalsiable, then how can anyone have any opinion or position on it? = Ignosticism.
MilitantPeaceist 7 months ago
@MilitantPeaceist The point in the definition is that atheism is defined as "without a theistic belief" or "not thiesm". Well, that's what the whole discussion is about. "Person A came to find Z to be true. Person B did not." This kind of shows it. That second statement is like the word "atheist". Can you tell if the person found the first one to be false? Did they try to find and didn't find it true? Did they just not do anything with no action involved?
CraniumOnEmpty 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@CraniumOnEmpty Actually it's a little different than that (and maybe more complex).
"Person A holds Z to be true. Person B does not."
CraniumOnEmpty 7 months ago
@CraniumOnEmpty
Wrong. Atheism is the counter to theism. It is not 'without' as that is only one translation from ancient greek & in grrek, 'a' is applied in many contextx that can be translated to 'without/ lack of/ non/ not/ opposite & quite a few more as well.
In this case, it is the opposite to the 'claim of god' Not the belief, not the person & not the religion. It is straight forward.
To top it off, atheism could not exist without theism so by that 9without) logic, theists are aAtheists
MilitantPeaceist 7 months ago
@CraniumOnEmpty
Question ~
Can atheism exist without someone claiming there is a god?
There is no ideology in atheism. There is no reason to read into it any further than the counter claim to theism!
It just does not get any more simpler than that!
MilitantPeaceist 7 months ago
@MilitantPeaceist You'd think. I agree with you, but the argument is far from over even with other atheists. That's who I'm arguing with currently. I tried arguing the first premise, because the name only exists because "theism" became the norm. Otherwise we would just be normal, and hopefully will be in the future.
CraniumOnEmpty 7 months ago
@CraniumOnEmpty xD
Normal? Who the bloody hell are you reffering to? Not me hopefully xD
Yesh, while I do not think theism can be irradicated because of the mere presense of history books (& we shall not be religious twats in destroying books with any indicators of god in it), this chicken & egg puzzle has been solved 8p
MilitantPeaceist 7 months ago
@CraniumOnEmpty Yes absolutely. It used to be that the dominant group defined the word. They still do but there is enough of a pushback that it's no longer a default win by force.
socrates856 7 months ago
@tlslayer1, you're right. I'm glad I learned this years ago, so I didn't throw away too much of my life on these pointless teachings!
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
All babies are blah-blah-blah. It doesn't matter. Just more pointless YT...oh you get the point.
But a note on Pete Stark. It is worth noting that he was first elected to the US House of Representatives in 1972. He came out as an atheist 35 years later. Would he have been elected had his religious beliefs been known in '72? Would he have been re-elected if it came out after only one or two terms? I think not.
PJsCreed 7 months ago
@PJsCreed I'm not sure. He says that back then religion in politics wasn't as big a deal. But I can't help but remember the animosity that Madelyn O'Hair received in the 70's. Of course, she was a bitch. :D
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@matur1n, I did not realize that not all Christian denominations hold this belief either, I could have been more specific I suppose. But I don't believe babies are born any particular religion, it is learned.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
@mature1n, the particular brands of religion I grew up in believed in original sin. But I don't represent these beliefs anymore and I'm not trying to defend or debate them.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
can you post a link to that study, pls? googled but as usual got lots of nonsense about religion and no studies
Ultra4 7 months ago
My belief is that if you don't believe anything, than you are an Atheist, there for you cannot escape religion as a subject, so everybody actually has some sort of religion. Babies are the exception, they can't think for themselves, nor comprehend the world around them, so they have no belief system yet. I am a Christian, however, I believe this to be true.
remotenightowl 7 months ago
I thought this video was about allbabiesareatheist user.
szlamp 7 months ago
today atheists are like yesterdays bearded men. Abe Lincoln shaved to be elected because people found bearded men less trustworthy.
aloric645 7 months ago
I am not claiming babies are born any religion.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago
Yeah, all that morality that can only be had through their religion and their religion, sure don't do them a whole hell of a lot of good.
SuperDESTROYER71 7 months ago