Pastor Greg Laurie How to Lead a Person to Christ 1 of 4

[MPXgraphics]

THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THROUGH THE SON!!!!!!

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Lol...well....

How about this for a "blue print". Love one another. Love your enemies. Blessing those who curse you. Give without the thought of receiving back. Love God. Turn the other cheek. Feed and clothe the poor.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23

The Gospels regarding Jesus the Messiah is beautiful, don't you agree?

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

No, I would not call the majority of the Gospels beautiful at all. See how you have to pick parts for the blueprint and throw out other parts? That's my point - the bible is not a blueprint anyone follows, unless in moderation (which is a good thing). You already know what's good before you read the bible.

Love your enemies and turn the other cheek can be really bad advise. Sure, there are times when it would be good advise, but not if your enemy wants to kill you.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Himm, really? Have you read the Gospels my friend? I would encourage you to read the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John before making that determination. Those four books are the Gospels.

I would be cautious of using arguments of others against the Bible. To be honest, these hackneyed arguments and accusations against the Bible thrown out by primarily atheists are unfounded. Therefore, I would encourage you to do your own study of biblical material.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

Yes, I read the whole bible. I'm getting ready to read the sequel (Book of Mormon). I was not impressed by the majority of what was in the Gospels. I outright dislike Paul's letters. Revelation...well, I don't want to be rude, so I'll leave it alone.

If you read the bible from a non-believing perspective, you may find it violent and immoral. Even Jesus doesn't look that good. If you are already a believer, you will find it beautiful and just.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

I would avoid the book of mormons. It certainly is NOT a "sequel"...lol Not even close. Don't believe me, do some research on its origins.

Question, what is it about the Bible is so horrid to you? Being that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law, and his basic message is of love, what is so aversive?

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

I have some basic knowledge of it's origins - both the Mormon legend and how it was most likely written. What is the legend of the four Gospels, and how were they most likely written/selected for biblical inclusion?

Again, I think I have a different perspective. I don't see Jesus as fulfillment of the law, nor do I see a pervasive message of love. You can find some good bits, but Jesus also introduces the idea of hell. Sending someone to perish on a lake of fire isn't love.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Yes, there is a hell, which is eternal separation from God, HOWEVER....

There is also a message of salvation through Jesus Christ, that He took upon Him this sins of the world. And those who come to and receive Jesus in faith will have eternal life. That God had come down in the form of a man to pay our debts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you're an atheist. I think you're looking for a loving God, but finding every reason to deny Him.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

You are wrong. I am not looking for a loving god, and I am an atheist. I do not believe any of the god claims. However, I would be happy to change my mind given evidence. What I am looking for in YT videos is various arguments for the existence of any god because I find the subject interesting, and I like to know how people's religious beliefs are impacting the world. For example, what are various religious sects saying about the repeal of "don't ask don't tell," and why?

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

I don't see the Jesus salvation story in the same light as you. God is the one inflicting the punishment. If a father says he won't beat the crap out of his sons as long as his son cleans his room, you don't praise the father for his loving kindness. To make it more accurate, it would have to be a father who left a note on the fridge in someone else's handwriting. Then the father beats the crap out of one son, and says that makes up for everyone else. I just don't see that as great.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Oh wow....I am so sorry that you feel that way about a God who does deeply love you. The Father does not beat the "crap" out of His creation. He is a good Father, and no good father would do that. It actually was humans that beat and crucified Jesus, however Jesus did face the separation from the Father that we in our sins would have faced.

Hey sbadd, I am right now uploading a message called "Christ the Lord". I invite you to watch it, and perhaps we can talk more about it.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

You missed the point of the analogy. The beatings were meant as the sending to hell. Perhaps for the father figure in my analogy, I could say he sends his sons to a torture chamber he set up in the basement. Anyone who would do that to me does not love me deeply. Barring severe mental illness, I could never endlessly and pointlessly torture anyone, let alone someone I love.

I am not trying to change your mind, I'm just answering your question as to my objection to the Gospels.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

God the Father, does not torture. That's not God the Father. That was never the plan.  However. yes if we are in sin and not forgiven through Jesus Christ, He will one day separate from us.

Separation and torture is very different....and if you want to look for one who tortures, it's Satan. I would caution you to not attribute the things of the enemy with God.

Again, I invite you to watch "Christ the Lord", as I believe it will clarify many things.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

Then again, Pastor Laurie takes the blame the victim approach, and says people send themselves to hell. To me, this sounds like an abusive husband explaining to his battered wife that she makes him hit her.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Here's an honest question for you. Are we really talking about God or Pastor Laurie? I encourage you to ask yourself, where did this perspective of God come from when the Bible is clear on the goodness of God.

Here's my last invite for you to watch "Christ the Lord". I hope you take it, and I hope we can talk about it. I must get my day going, but will continue to respond later. I am enjoying this convo :D

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

I couldn't find that vid on your page, but I did look.

Thanks, I'm enjoying the conversation as well. My perspective on the goodness (or lack thereof) of your god comes from a reading of the Bible. I was surprised by how little goodness I found - I had expected more. A lot of verses I used to think sounded nice were actually people thanking god for helping them slaughter and enslave other people.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Vids are up :D, but thanks for looking earlier.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

(Sorry I'm so long winded)

I watched the video to see what Pastor Laurie had to say about converting people, but our conversation turned to the Bible instead. I realized I was not the intended audience, but I still find his sermon very telling. The vids are not convincing at all themselves, but I think he is very effective in preparing Christians for evangelism, which is his purpose.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Apologizing for being long-winded? Then, I must also (to you and many others) xD

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

And the Jesus character as portrayed in the bible isn't always a nice guy either. He rarely follows his own advise about loving his enemies. Considering the endless torture he's got planned for them, he even says it would be better for them if they hadn't been born.

Jesus' parable of Lazarus (Luke 16) is morally repugnant. Endless torture for the rich man, and apparently, Abraham and Lazarus get their jollies looking on. I don't see any kindness in this.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Jesus loved sinners and the self-righteous. But, He called a spade a spade....some people as you know are horribly religious and corrupt. And He called for us all to faith and repentance.

He doesn't endlessly torture you, but would die for you and I so we may not face separation but enjoy an intimate relationship. Satan tortures, corrupts, separates, and deceives. I think we need to be clear about that.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

That doesn't make it any better. So the father sends his sons to the torture chamber in the basement to be tortured by his next door neighbor. Jesus says they will be cast into a lake of fire, but not by whom. Whether it's Satan or Jesus, the whole torture scene has gods approval. I do not call that loving.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Well, how about this perspective. God lost His creation through sin, and being Holy, none who have sin can enter the Father's presence. However, being a God of infinite love, He would by His own volition and by grace, become a man to take upon Himself our sins so we may have eternal life. Call it a second chance for humanity. He would put himself into the hands of His own creation to be crucified and killed, so that we may be reconciled. All because He loves us immensely.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

That makes your god sound like an inept creator. A more powerful and thoughtful god would not have created sin, or created a creation that would sin (I reject the concept of sin, but I'll play along). Why does he require a blood sacrifice for atonement? Didn't he know what was going to happen when he created mankind by his own volition? How can he blame them for it? It's like blaming Pandora for opening the box even though Zeus planned that she would out of curiosity.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Why blood? Life for life. Jesus shed His blood for us so we may have life. Thus, we are clothed in His holiness and are sanctified and redeemed.

God did know, but He did not create automatons. Mankind can be blamed because we choose to sin, but we also can choose to receive Jesus by faith. A good God does not create slaves.

[DumbNJKids]

@sbadd Tell that to adam.

[sbadd]

Ironically, I almost completely agree with his reading of the Bible so far (but it is definitely not a blueprint to follow, and no one does). I do agree it states pretty clearly you have to follow Jesus or else. I didn't like being told why I don't believe in any gods, and feel 0% lead to your god by part 1. His answer to question 1 is clearly aimed at Christians. He's just telling you non-Christians don't get to go to heaven. Yeah, I know your book says that - so what?

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Millions of Christians follow the Bible as a "blue print".

"So what?"-Well, lets say the Bible is true and there is no deception found in God. Denying Jesus as Savior means eternal separation. Another words hell.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

and yes, so what? Why "let's say the bible is true," and not some other holy book? When you're talking to someone who doesn't already believe in your god, that argument is just as effective as saying: "Let's say the legends of Santa Claus are true. Denying his existence and not believing in him means he won't come to your house this year. In other words, no presents."

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

I give you that. If you don't believe the Bible is true, then the argument is likely ineffective.

However, you cannot say the Bible is false with absolute certainty either.  If the Bible is the ultimate truth of a real God, then believing the Bible is false doesn't really matter all that much.

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

Right. I didn't search for this video - youtube recommended it for me;)

I thought it would be more reason and evidenced based, but I realize this is directed at people who already believe. I would advise Christians who want to convert people like me to find some other material, as the arguments put forth in these videos are weak and mildly insulting.

I cannot say the Bible is false with absolute certainty. I also cannot say Zeus or leprechauns do not exist with absolute certainty.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Lol...YT is recommending this vid? Very cool.

Again, if you find this vid weak and insulting, then may I again suggest actually reading a primary source, that being the Bible.

Zeus and leprechauns vs. Jesus Christ? Aw c'mon now, .that's just silly. Perhaps, read the book of Acts, which follow immediately the Gospels. It tells the acts of the apostles subsequent of the resurrection of Jesus, and how Christianity came into being. Neither Zeus nor leprechauns have been so successful

[sbadd]

@mmktiger

Both Zeus and leprechauns have been just as successful in their own time. You can no more disprove them than I can disprove your bible. I recommend you read the Odyssey which follows the Iliad to see what happened after the Trojan war. You can also read Irish folk tales. People really believed in these things, and I suspect they would be able to defend those beliefs as well as you defend yours.

[mmktiger]

@sbadd

Lol....

Neither are worshiped by over 2 billion people in the world, tho I wouldn't mind receiving a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow XD

[Epostaxis]

"if a person is a true seeker of truth he will find jesus christ..." so all the scientists who day after day disprove the creationist dribble are just not seeking the truth enough... yeah right.... keep on praying for me to see the light, i'll keep living my sinful life which includes working, paying taxes, loving my wife and taking care of my kids and not breaking any laws. you do it your way , i'll do it mine.

[theBIGGESTmidgetz]

listen to , 2:43 and so on.. so powerful. sp

[misschristinelee87]

danecooktz...We will continue to pray for you! (it's crazy how people criticize about Christians and God but when they are in a time of need they call on God. It is moment like this that God loves you the most. )

[Eugene012]

Greg is awesome!

[danecooktz]

RELIGION IS A HATE CRIME, SLAUGHTER THE CREATIONIST!!!!

[mmktiger]

@danecooktz Ironic, no? You accuse Christians as hateful, yet you call our slaughter.....

[jamesluc256]

@danecooktz Thanks for uploading. I can't see why a nonbeliever would "waste" their time watching something if they really hated it. That's like going to a diner you know you don't like, and eating there only to complain after. Although some may be looking for answers which I understand, but why go to a diner and eat just to ridicule it after? Time is money. So why would you waste your time if you feel this way?

[Lawrence4431]

So butiful of type pastor

[SubconsciousGatherer]

I am a seeker of truth, and that search led me to atheism. How do you back up the claim that EVERYONE actually believes in Jesus whether they admit it or not? Are you suggesting that every Muslim, every Jew, every Hindu, every Buddhist and every (fill in the blank) has a secret awareness of Christ that they just don't admit?

[mmktiger]

@SubconsciousGatherer I'm not sure if you're addressing me or Pastor Laurie, but I'll try to field your question (but it would be kinda cool to have Pastor Laurie jump in on this xD). I believe Pastor Laurie was basically stating was those who seek God will find it through and in Jesus, and he is supporting this by the fact that Jesus stated he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

[mmktiger]

@SubconsciousGatherer Jesus has made this proclamation, which brings you, I, and everyone else to answer the crucial question of whether He was speaking the truth or He was liar or perhaps insane. I believe Jesus spoke the truth, and He is God. How I came to this conclusion is this:

There is no "religious figure" that showed love and compassion as He did. In fact, His love is so foreign to this world tells me He is not of this world. Read the Gospels, and you'll see what I mean.

[SubconsciousGatherer]

@mmktiger - You believe he spoke the truth. I'm not convinced that he even existed. There's no reason to be 100% sure that this guy is more than just a mythical figure.

As far as him showing love and compassion in a way that no one ever has...I just don't see it. I've read the gospels. Nothing convincing or wonderful about it. I fail to see what the claim of "sacrifice" was when he came back to life 3 days later. Some sacrifice!

[mmktiger]

@SubconsciousGatherer Actually, historical documents verify there was a Jesus who was as described in the Gospels. The argument that He is just a myth is one that atheists like to propose, but it carries no real weight. Well, yes he did come back to life 3 days later, however, he was also tortured, crucified, and was forsaken by the Father as a propitiation for our sins. All the while, He begged the Father to forgive those who had done this to Him. No one else has ever died for your sins.

[mmktiger]

@SubconsciousGatherer So, for the love of humanity, which includes the most horrible and cynical among us, Jesus gave Himself to as a reconciliation between us and the Father. He essentially paid our debts with his life. Christians can now go to God and call him Father, because we are now His children. So, does it take a tremendous love and compassion to do what Jesus did for us, all the while being innocent of the accused crimes? Absolutely. Like I said, no other "religious figure".

[mmktiger]

@SubconsciousGatherer Finally, we can't glean over the fact that Jesus ate with those considered the "filth" of society, blessed the weak, broken hearted, and the meek. He defended a prostitute, upheld women and children in a culture that placed them a step above dogs. He gave sight to the blind, healed the sick, and called out hypocrites and the "religious". His fury was against the "money changers"/financial thieves. He fed thousands. Im not sure how you cant see his love.