Of Meat and Myth - Upton Sinclair "The Jungle"

[twinpeninsulas]

it was the early 20th century. everything was horrendous. the rich were greedy assholes and the poor were stomped on. probably the worst time to be alive in this country.

and the mackinac center for public policy are basically a republican mouthpiece. im ashamed this group is based in my state. the "government inspectors" were in the pay of armour and the other billionaire packers

[fringeelements]

As usual, no arguments, just vague assertions. And an assertion that the Mackinac center is somehow biased, so you can dismiss what is said without even addressing it.

I suspect the only reason you agree that this was all a racket is because ideological socialists like Sinclair and Kolko say it is. If it were just libertarians saying it you'd probably be licking the state's butthole on this too, because that's your default, because you're a zealot for the status quo.

[laroger0]

As the song by Tower of Power says... "Can't stand the slaughter, but still I eat the meat."

[spec24]

Xexixk, when the govt is in league with the corporations and ultimately has power over them, like in the US, that is much closer to socialism.

[spec24]

Wonderful. Keep up the good work.

[BeauJames59]

If this piece wasn't ridiculous enough on the surface, it comes from a blog in which the original Thanksgiving is portrayed as an example of profit motive.

[fringeelements]

@BeauJames59 Right, the change in property norms from communal to individualistic resulted in a 180 in productivity, this is established fact, not just a portrayal.

[BeauJames59]

Now that Greenspan's worship of the fatally flawed Ayn Rand has wreaked havoc on our economy, Market Fundamentalism can finally be thrown on the trash heap of history along with Historical Materialism. Of course Its adherents will be spewing its empty rhetoric even in the breadlines it created.

[fringeelements]

@BeauJames59 The federal reserve is an example of state intervention, nobody who supports the federal reserve can be said to support free markets. I have a video here called "the business cycle" which explains how the artificial expansion of credit, which central banks do, causes an overinvestment boom and then a bust.

State intervention has increased steadily from 1913 to today, and the result has been increasing chaos that comes from arbitrary and unregulated state action.

[FletchforFreedom]

@BeauJames59 Since, of course, Greenspan was a central banker (not following Rand by any stretch of the imagination) and, as anyone with even the most tenuous grasp of economics (to you: "other people") the current economic crisis was CAUSED by the central bank, not "Market Fundamentalism", perhaps you'd like to make at least an attempt to educate yourself (about the failure of colonial communalism for example) for maing yourself look so incompetent. Clearly, looks are not always deceiving.

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

@BeauJames59

How do you reconcile a government monopoly on the provision of currency, rampant inflationism, easy credit policies and several thousands of pages of financial controls on trade, money and banking with the free market? Even you must admit how ridiculous that sounds, just on the face of it.

Even a quick browse on Wikipedia reveals that the Federal Reserve was created and granted special powers by an Act of Congress, and that the chairman is appointed politically.

[BeauJames59]

LOL....oh my, I predicted the minions responses, and they didn't let us down....we worship Thee, oh Invisible Hand! Next, they'll turn into Leibnizians and tell us how the suffering of countless innocent people is part of the best of all possible worlds. Sorry gang, it's been fun, but I have an appointment back on earth.....

[vspqbd]

@BeauJames59

Coming from a state cultist who can't tell the difference between state activity and voluntary activity, I'll take that as an admit of defeat.

Cheers.

[FletchforFreedom]

@BeauJames59 So, I'm curious. How exactly does your sarcastic laughter instead of logical argument, glaring historical inaccuracies about FDR, factual inaccuracies about current events, and demonstrated ignorance of the topics under discussion, while pretending that anyone is ignoring suffering neither caused by nor related to capitalism, markets or Adam Smith's "invisible hand" (which you cannot grasp), accomplish anything but attract deserved derision? At least youi admit absence from earth.

[vspqbd]

@shadowgeyser

Good. So it's not just me then.

[vspqbd]

@shadowgeyser

From what I understand, the effects of Human Action IS the invisible hand.

I could be wrong though.

[vspqbd]

3:32 - Here's what I don't get about what goes on in the mind of the statists.

There is "corruption of the government inspectors" and somehow that's the fault of the "free market"?

Fucking logic, how does that work?

[BeauJames59]

What amazes me is that the real suffering of fellow human beings is thrown under the bus because it interferes with the worship of an abstract principle- laissez-faire economics.

I guess this makes sense, because worshiping an abstract principle lets you divert your attention from the agonies of your fellow men and women.

[fringeelements]

Yeah this video is about how the claims in "The Jungle" are obviously false, and it can be shown very simply.

And if your concern is about peoples' well being, then historically free markets have always resulting in the typical person having more stuff. China, Botswana, Chile, the former USSR countries, Ireland, India - all examples of places that made their economies more free than before the markets and became wealthier overall, and I mean more than 100% more.

[BeauJames59]

@fringeelements Because in the laissez-faire world, there are "winners" and "losers" and if you aren't on top of the pack, tough luck....it's survival of the fittest and if you don't have the right stuff, you go to fertilizer room......seeya sucker!

[fringeelements]

@BeauJames59 So Irish people are relatively worse off than they were in the 1970s. Thanks for the insight.

[natdavi]

@BeauJames59 as opposed to the other world where it's all losers

[FletchforFreedom]

@BeauJames59 Actually, you will find no greater defender of capitalism than I, expressly BECAUSE I care a great deal about the rell suffering and agonies of my fellow human beings. It' simple economic history: nothing has done more to improve the well being of Man, particularly the poor, than the innovations of markets, money and capitalism. Real suffering is most prevalent (and more easily found) where capitalism is hindered or interfered with (such that busts occur, for example).

[BeauJames59]

@FletchforFreedom And of course the REAL goal of this kind of thing is that you don't have to care about people. You can worship the market, run around with your copy of "The Fountainhead" or "Atlas Shrugged", hold your head high, ignore the suffering, poisoning and broken lives all around and declare "The Invisible Hand" will take care of everything. Tell that to the people dying of radiation poisoning in Japan and their children. Tell that to the innocent children in Iraq, who will never know

[vspqbd]

@BeauJames59

In all seriousness, cool story bro.

[BeauJames59]

@vspqbd Yes, and despite the propaganda people are spreading here to sooth any remaining concern they may have for human suffering (lol, next they'll trot out some stuff about communist countries as if that's their only alternative, they are SO predictable).......Roosevelt sent his minions to prove Sinclair wrong, couldn't do it, and became a progressive......

[FletchforFreedom]

@BeauJames59 Your history ... isn't. It isn't even close. Roosevelt, perhaps you believe he was a champion of laissez faire, sent men with a history of favoring and cerating legislation to "investigate" the matter and found exactly what they were looking for despite being unable to substantaite a single claim that appeared in Sinclair's fiction.

Put another way, your stance is so unusual, I can only say: "Bartender. I'll have what HE'S having!"

[BeauJames59]

@BeauJames59 a life outside of a war zone, having their limbs blown off and their parents killed in front of them because the free market decided oil and gas guzzling cars were the way to go.......

[FletchforFreedom]

@BeauJames59 As, of course, the market (capitalism) you denigrate is entirely responsible for 300 years of improved living standards, better health and longer life spans while the innocent children suffering in Iraq are not doing so as the result of capitalism and as NO ONE is known to be dying from radiation poisoning in Japan (albeit the 50 volunteers fighting to fix it may) due to an ACCIDENT (not capitalism), all you've demonstrated is the bankruptcy of your position...

[vspqbd]

@FletchforFreedom

Not to mention all the wars he uses to diatribe capitalism are fought by government, which makes them socialist by definition.

So basically his reasoning is. War is evil, therefore we need to give more power to the institution that makes war possible in the first place.

Statist Logic: It's the equivalent of dividing by zero.

[xexixk]

@vspqbd Is it a "socialist" war if it is a war as the result of government collusion with big business in order to gain access to or control of some natural recource which those businesses will then profit from? Read War is a Racket by Gen. Smedley Butler

[vspqbd]

@xexixk

Yes.

[xexixk]

@vspqbd LOL So a war on behalf of a corporation to help them get access to or control of resources is a socialist war? That makes no sense. Socialism doesn't = collusiton of business and government. Corporatism yes. Socialism no.

[christo930]

I read this in high school and have just recently finished it again. First, it's a pretty good read, entertaining and interesting even after all these years. While I am totally against socialism and am glad he lived to see so many suffer under it, I do believe the stuff he wrote about. The corruption, the pay offs, the brutality etc were all very real. Even though I am a libertarian, I realize the free market can not be unfettered and unregulated (not that current regulations are good).

[fringeelements]

Well then you're a tool and not worth anyone's concern.

The movement is opposition to the state, reform doesn't work, democracy doesn't work, and so if this fairy-tale written by a means-of-production socialist prevents your understanding of this, keeping you in the wet bellywick of "we need some regulation" or "we need some safety net" then go away, neither you nor your violent opinions are wanted around here.

[christo930]

@fringeelements Tell me, do you think that there should be no regulation of any industry? Should drug companies not have to list their ingredients? Who exactly would decide how much of some pollution in a stream or river is too much? Do you think a property owner can prove in a court of law that the company upstream is a)responsible for the pollution and b)able to prove that the amount in the water is dangerous at that level? Without the gov setting the level, who decides?

[sstearns34]

@christo930 All markets should be regulated, just not by the government. Regulation is a service, like any other. Even in 1906 when word of this got out, meat sales plummeted, even though it wasn't true. In the information age, there's no reason not to have private watchdog groups that are slaves to the people, unlike the FDA which at this point is constant fail, and impossible to remove.

[idontgiveashit0930]

@christo930 Free market is anti-interventionist stance. If you endorse government regulations, you are not for free market. You contradicted yourself and demonstrated that youre a closet liberal, not a libertarian.

[christo930]

@idontgiveashit0930 I am a libertarian, just not an extreme one. I do believe in less regulation, certainly far less than we have in the US, but that doesn't mean I oppose ALL regulation. For example, I am glad that companies are forced to label ingredients.

[fringeelements]

I'm for law, perhaps stateless law will require firms to list ingredients. In fact in my plan, all precedent will be carried over (at first) and then the legal agencies would tear it and mold it to best fit the demands of society. Maybe that precedent will remain.

Night watchman is as likely as throwing a rock 100 yards and having it land and balance on the head of a pin.

You can choose to only buy products that list ingredients and are approved by third party "private" regulatory agencies.

[fringeelements]

Nobody opposes regulation. That's a caricature and a childish oversimplification of the issues. "Anti-Statism at light speed" will provide some introductory information. Please, go through some general clearinghouse so we don't have to keep responding to the same arguments.

I know it's new to you and you think you're bringing up fresh points, but you're not and it's stale.

[flabbychicken19]

You never answered if you have read The Jungle or any other Upton Sinclair novel, play, or article. I never mentioned Ayn Rand, so please don't put words into my mouth and then call me an idiot.

[fringeelements]

You're not worth my time. You drop "milton friedman" and / or ayn rand a lot. You're an economic relativist, you're an idiot. I know you have no idea what a state is, how they originated (cults and god-kings), you haven't solved the calculation problem or the utopian notion that firms can be "regulated" or why firms would have an incentive or produce shitty stuff given how easy it is to find out. The Jungle was fiction, and Sinclair himself opposed the legislation passed in it's name.

[fringeelements]

You think we should have a "middle ground" between throwing people in rape-cages if they don't pay the fees the mob says they should and... there's nothing soft or moderate about what you're saying. An act of state is an act of war. And it FAILS where it intervenes. Finances, schooling, medical, police, law. The libertarian party was founded in 1971, and my little movement is about a year old. Anti-statism is new, you don't understand it and you probably don't understand anything else. PISS OFF

[flabbychicken19]

did u even read the jungle, or do any actual research? how about now FOOD Inc...watch it

[fringeelements]

I'm sure food inc. is hyperbolic, exaggerated and lies by omission. Give me a text fact sheet in PM of their claims, and then show a profitable alternative (if you don't know why profits are key to satisfying the demands of society, see my vid "statism is antisocial"). Then I may respond, or I may not.

Also this video is of me reading another man's article. If his article makes incorrect statements, point them out. If you continue to engage in holisis, I'm going to block you.

[flabbychicken19]

what you assume about food inc. with out actually viewing it, i will assume about your video "statism..." god bless the human ability to self-select infomation and live in our own insulated worlds.

have you read the jungle? Try reading and viewing anything that is not from a libertarian blog or milton friedman book.

have you ever experienced poverty? worked a blue collar job? or at least spoken with those who have? please do so, then we can talk.

stop believing and start experiencing

[fringeelements]

I referred you to a 4 min vid, you referred me to a movie. Not analogous.

Being still on the fringes (though that's changing), nobody can only read libertarian stuff in the way it's possible to only read "conservative" or "liberal" stuff. Throwing around the names Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman is a dead giveaway that you're an idiot.

Sorry, the breadth of experience necessary to make sound judgments on political economy from experience alone is impossibly wide. You have to read.

[fringeelements]

If you're basing your views primarily off of experience, then your views are probably one point of the web projected onto the entire structure of production.

I worked 3 years as a 1-man landscaping company, now I do gay porn, and I plan to live off of my web stuff in a few years. I haven't been in poverty because I'm not retarded (i.e. having kids) and / or lazy.

But that's unrelated, this vid is about food cleanliness. Please stop with the holisis. Analysis or GTFO.

[FWCKevin]

@fringeelements What is holisis? Bellywick? The correct term is Bailiwick and they aren't often wet, unless it is raining. Currently, the term refers to a person's sphere of interest or expertise and not a geographical locale.

I find it interesting that you frequently insult and call people idiots but use flagrant misspellings, mispronunciations, and incorrect terminology usage. Why so hostile? Hostility in discourse usually implies unsteady footing on the part of the hostile participant.

[fringeelements]

Name another frequently misused / mispelled term that I use besides bailiwick. While misspelling it, I was using it correctly, as it originally referred to the area of jurisdiction of a bailiff.

The "hostility" comes from assholes making the same cookie-cutter arguments they've been making since I've started, yet thinking they're original, and from passive-aggressive shitheads like you.

[fringeelements]

The definition of holisis can be inferred from the definition of analysis.

[Kuetonius]

of free markets & myth...talk about myths lol...thousands of peeps dying every yr from food poisoning & being maimed & killed on jobs...its all just a big myth i guess!

[fringeelements]

Good point. Lifespan rose, infant mortality rates fell, and hours spent working fell whenever "industrialization" (an inherently ambiguous process) of agriculture and manufacturing occurred. Clearly since bad things still happen, it's all a grand failure.

[FreiKonigsberg]

Excellent vid

[uzijohn]

Great video,

Like most I was given lies and told they were fact and that government meat inspection was a victory for the little man, much of my education involved the government desperately trying to justify its existence to naive kids

I've learned that patriotism is not and never was a love of the government,

It’s about caring and protecting your neighbors, too often it's the state doing the victimizing, be it over taxation, excessive regulation, red tape and much worse...

[alen209]

we will never know. There is some videos of workers back in the day cutting meat wit bare hands. To be honest I work at a restaurant and sometimes. food doest come out "clean" for those who never worked at a restaurant/ fast food you have no idea what im saying. I will never look at food the same way before I started to work in kitchening. Now lets take back to 1900s to its worse unsanitary times of the century. You make the call propaganda or truth?

[kubaniski]

@alen209 I make my own food and i know that it doesn't come out clean either, your bound to have some contamination, however overall it's ok. If the meat packers had such horrid amounts of contamination people would have noticed.

[EarthInmate616]

I'll eat a cow and a hippie. Fuck your cunt tree.

[xerophiLIEs]

constructive critism i did like your video but its a little dull. you need to dumb it down slightly with your vocabulary, use way more visuals, and your voice could be less robotic. it seems youre rushing to read to the end. youre videos are fine but they arent super. this is a running trend with your videos. you have good ideas but you have to deliver your points better. dont take offense.

[nobuckle40]

Just so you know it's pronounced Mack-in-naw, not Mack-in-nac.

[fringeelements]

Yes I know! Sheesh!

[nobuckle40]

@fringeelements I meant no offense.  I apologize.

[RevolutionaryJam]

why don't you just deal with the ARGUMENTS in the book? most of this video is just rhetoric and ad hominem Ryan

Atlas Shrugged is also a novel, thats not an argument against it's potency

[fringeelements]

@RevolutionaryJam

Go read the article, then gtfo

[TotalAnomy]

take notice and remember: this book is straight up gangsta.

[AshillaBeige]

I fucking hate so many of the Muckrakers... Had to write an essay on why they were so awesome for a class.

Fuck progressive universities.

[Forlo12345]

@AshillaBeige I hear ya! Progressive academics claim to be all in favor of free speech and the uninhibited expression of alternate/independent political views....well, apparently only if they agree with you.

[fireman12888]

@Forlo12345 Any academia that does not have to do with technology, sciences, etc. should be crushed(this is to say the political "science" and other subjects that have "differing" intrepretations). This is why you still have people beleiving in Marxism. You do not have differing intrepretations(it is almost no controversy) in the atom theory, the gravity theory, etc.

[Forlo12345]

@fireman12888 ABSOLUTELY!!! That's precisely the reason why I'm majoring in biochemistry. In science, there is usually only one right answer. Sure, there may be some debates concerning what answers are more correct than others, but at least you don't get shot down in a chemistry class for presenting your claims and your line of reasoning/evidence...as opposed to political "science" classes where the professors like to chew you out for having a alternate opinion.

[fireman12888]

@Forlo12345 Iol yeah I'm going to be a mechanical engineer.

I remeber I had something else to add to my last comment but owell.

[fireman12888]

@AshillaBeige That sucks.

[zalida100]

Hey Ryan, I'd love to hear your reaction to this v=uHKY8Cw82kA

I'm sorry i can't comment on it. I'm speechless.

Cheers

[8DX]

"sacred cow.. excuse the pun."

That's not a pun, that's an analogy or metaphor. Unless I missed some cow out there.

[failedassassin]

@8DX Sacred cow... Meat inspection act.. It was hilarious! You should have been there.

[elliotcheely]

@8DX lol!

[hellsunicorn]

Throughout history the so-called prolitariat have been useful idiots for monopolistic fascists and tycoons. Stalin himself can be likened to a robberbaron of sorts, only differing in that he had every single industry under his iron boot rather than just one.

[8DX]

Stalin was a dictator. Like all others. Robberbaron? Perhaps, but Robbers limit their activities to circumvent the law. Stalin WAS the law, the market, the God.

[hellsunicorn]

@8DX Not the God, or else he would not have died, the Czar, or Caesar might have been a better analogy. Nonetheless, he was what most market monopolists would like to be if they could.

[8DX]

@hellsunicorn The Czar was God in all practical senses and Roman emperors actually claimed godhood. That's the problem with absolutist (or totalitarian) power it's assumed omniscient, omnipotent, unchallenged, good.

[AshillaBeige]

@8DX

Ah yes.. I remember that famous Stalin quote: "I am the LAW!"

[abortabraham]

chris3325 still hates you. He's a poopybutt.

[darklord220]

Of Meat and Myth smells like shit!!!

[lengthyounarther]

MackinAW. I know this is a reposting, but its still.

[junior00bacon00chee]

he looks a lot like martin landau.

[headcrabgordan]

I like the part where the baby gets eaten by rats. I know I have problems.