@Sersons Even before Pankration. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs of wrestling moves that predate what we know from Greece. I reckon before the first caveman threw a punch at another guy, he probably pounced on him first.
I think this is a reverse ude garami. It's hard to really say who invented what. I mean, a lot of these techniques are simple, and many different styles began using them without knowledge anyone else knew it. How would a catch wrestler in the early 1900s know that a double-wrist lock is a ude garami in judo, and how would a judoka know that it'd eventually become the "kimura"?
@xbm I know what your sayig but remember judo didnt begin to evolve till the late 1800s judo isnt even 160 years old. Old style samurai ju jitsu was hundreds of years older.
@xbm Alot of these catch as catch can moves were developing in the late 1700s-1800s to be more precise catch even has even older influences that go back as far as the Roman period in great britain.
@xbm There are European manuscripts from the renaissance that show a bent armlock like the Double Wrist Lock, that predate Europes first entry into Japan by a hundred years. It's very possible though that similar moves are discovered independently of each other since there are only a certain number of ways to hyper extend or hyper rotate a limb.
The Japanese didn't call it a Kimura, they called it the Ude Garami. The name Kimura came from the Gracies, who named it in honor of Kimura, who broke Helio's arm with it.
I love all the catch guys, they're so sadistic when demonstrating lol. I've seen a lot of Japanese guys demo and torture guys lol I want to train some catch. I'm a BJJ Blue Belt
@MrBladeCrash: Pankration is a martial thought to have existed even long before 648 B.C.E., so in reality the Catch roots (along with almost every grappling art) came directly from the ancient greek art.
Well, if you want to get historical about it, they had wrestling in Egypt and Babylon long before the rise of Greece. Just like Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics probably influenced Greek math it's very likely that the wrestling traditions of those cultures influenced pankration as well.
Wrestling goes back a long time in Mesopotamia, even being mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Giving all the credit to Greece for inventing catch seems a bit Eurocentric.
Why is it that every wrestler comes across as a douche bag? Even the old man is douche. Legend or not. He likes to abuse people by hurting them uh. I wojnder how much his wrestling will help his old ass if one just punch him on the face for holding a sub that long to show off. The young bold guy is a total douche too. Say what you will about BJJ or Judo but at least there's some honor in it. Douches! Punks!
Utter fail... Just no. The Gracies slapped people to challenge them to fights. And he's right. what Jiujitsu and Judo people "discovered" was done thousands of years ago.
@chiconspiracy By that logic, they catch guys also "discovered" it. In fact, that's how human society works, we stand on the shoulders of the giants of the past. Nowadays, we have to wait until the copyright lapses, but it's done in the same way.
@wyxvt I think it's the nature of old pro wrestling. It was a small club full of con men who used brutality to keep new comers out. If you could make it through the ringer, you had access. Also, lot's of older BJJ guys, especially those from Carlson's lineage have a style that similar to catch. It's pressure and, the "kimura" that they teach is very much like this. You're pinned to the ground, your arm is isolated and, your shoulder joint could be ripped apart.
Just to clarify what Mr. Robinson said (and he clarified in another video): the Double Wristlock is known in Judo and Ju Jitsu as Ude Garami (I don't know what that means), Brazilian Ju Jitsu practitioners call it Kimura since judoka Masahiko Kimura used this lock to beat Helio Gracie in Brazil. According to Mr. Robinson, Kimura learned this move from Karl Gotch.
@exe2517: I'm sure Mr. Robinson (along with every Catch-Wrestler) claimed such a thing but, unfortunately, the Kimura/Ude Garami/Double Wrist Lock has been in Judo since the beginning. This submission is a modified technique where it's ancestry can be traced to the ancient art of Pankration. Kano Jigoro modified the lock from old scriptures that belonged to the Samurai.
@Azrael561 haha, omg dude you just proved yourself wrong. Judo got the hold from pankration, true. but do you know what pankration was? a combination of boxing and WRESTLING.
Has your catch wrestling group ever challenged a BJJ team in a submission competition? I would love to see Catch demonstrated against BJJ. I don't like to see it when Catch is combined with BJJ in the same gym. I saw a BJJ team beat a Russian Sambo team and BJJ teams are always challenging Judo teams who only know standup and throws but not ground grappling. Newaza Judo groups are hard to find now. I would love to see BJJ humbled vs. Catch.
@khalsasikh style vs style is pointless. The BJJ of today isn't the BJJ of 50 years ago when Helio was doing challenge matches. BJJ has evolved to include aspects of other arts such as more modern Judo (compared to the 'Judo' of Maeda), Wrestling, Sambo and yes Catch. They still call it BJJ and not all give credit to other arts, but some do. Forward thinkers like Rigan Machado, Marcelo Garcia, Ryan Hall, Stephan Kesting, Ricardo Liborio (to a name a few) are good reps of BJJ in this regard.
@KJGould What techniques and from what other art is Marcelo Garcia giving props. Daniel D'Dane told me he saw Marcelo Garcia train with Luta Livre guys in Brazil.
Having seen his hay day some four decades ago, it's a bit sad to see him looking sort of frail. He confessed in his autobiography that he suffered drinking problem for years. Hope he will live long. Still a great wrestler.
@TyVoltage88 Yeah, but Sakuraba is a shell of himself and, hasn't done much to promote his art. Despite losing to him, the Gracies have made sure that GJJ/BJJ is the most popular submission grappling art going. There are 3 BJJ and, 2 Judo schools in my county. The only wrestling is youth and, high school. No one has heard of catch.
The Ude garami is part of the Katame no Kata ( Kansetsu waza section) which is known to have been established in the 1880s. Thought to have beene years of 1884 or 1885 is usually cited.
So if Gotch showed him anything, Kimura may have just nodded politely, but he most definitely understood the double wrist lock long before her ever met Gotch, or visited Wigan.
@panther2552 rickson would of destroyed him dumbass. sakuraba is good against jiujitsu but nothing else. nothing against catch wrestling and billy robinson, but sakuraba was only good against jiujitsu artists.
@BGLethal He subbed a luta livre great aswell as many great strikers and other sub wrestlers so reckon he wasn't just good against GJJ practitioners. As for Rickson destroying him, if that were they case Rickson shouldn't have backed out of the fight twice and still kept talking about how easily he could be him. Rickson was content fighting hand picked opponents to keep his 400-0 record that his own father called a joke intact.
@panther2552 True true. Both Rickson and Royce also backed out of a fight with Johhny Huskey - student of the great Billy Wicks. Catch is devastating.
@BGLethal Saku beat Royce in prime. Royce used steroids for their 2nd fight was caught and suspended for the remainder of his fight license. Ralek got a good win, but at 24 he should win against a 41 year old battleworn Sakuraba. Finally, Rickson never fought anyone in MMA with much skill other than Funaki. He backed out of fighting Sakuraba twice while continuing to say he could beat him easily. basically he was just all talk when it came to facing Saku.
@racingmylife15 Royce is my hero, but you have to give Sakuraba credit. He beat two Gracies and was a significant contender against Ralek even in his 40s. The gracies represent the highest talent in the jiu jitsu world, but they aren't the end all be all of jiu jitsu. There are lots of other world class grapplers out there. Sakuraba is still among them, and definitely was in his prime.
@clipophile I'm a big fan of both sakuraba and royce! what sakuraba has done is amazing and i'll always admire him. Royce is great too...showing his warrior spirit in the early UFC events. I would have liked to see sakuraba fight royce in submission grappling (no-gi)...
I had the pleasure (and pain) of a 2-hour private with Billy Robinson. After 2 hours of training, he got on the floor and taught me the Double Wrist Lock. The "Kimura" will never be the same.
His details turned this from a "big guy move" to me - at 5'4 1/4 and 145 pounds - having it succesfully done against a much larger man.
Mr Billy Robinson was by far when wrestlered the very best of the best. He performed world wide this man had as many holds as the others had big mouths. He was fast and man Billy was on the top list of wrestlers. There were bigger names manly entertainers however Billy had the "Holds" . 5/5 Age may had slowed the great man but even now I certainly would not like BR to place a hold on yar.
I am a BJJ guy and have a Huge amount of respect for CACC... I think both sides are guilty in claiming in which is a superior art I think Both CACC, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sambo , Submission Wrestling all complement each other and I think instead of arguing with one another why not just learn it all?? Cant we all be friends here when it comes to the arts and learn from each other???
I agree with you. To me all grappling is just... grappling. It´s all the same. The differences come out when you have to set the rules for competition.
Competition rules are what make such styles. Methodologies of teaching or training too.
When people say XYZ is best/better tan ZYX one has to wonder: better for what?
So to me what it´s best is not competition but being able to train, share with others and have fun while grappling.
I agree with you. To me all grappling is just... grappling. It´s all the same. The differences come out when you have to set the rules for competition.
Competition rules are what make such styles. Methodologies of teaching or training too.
When people say XYZ is best/better tan ZYX one has to wonder: better for what?
So to me what it´s best is not competition but being able to train, share with others and have fun while grappling.
He might use a walking stick, but you know Mr Robinson could rip you limb from fucking limb without even trying. And what a body of knowledge, he's like a colossal yoda.
@nutsack325 Check out Mr.Robinson's gravelly old skool voice.He sounds like Rocky's old skool trainer Mickey,if he'd learned martial arts."HE'LL KILL YA TUH DEATH INSIDE OF 2 ROUNDS,ROCK! YOU ONLY KNOW THAT BJJ (BLEEP)!"
far from stupid, You can say what you want about me. I have been at this for 17 years and can tell you these guys are not more knowledgeable then a blue belt in BJJ
@1lostinspace Nobody called you stupid did they? I said your mouth was stupid cause your talking about a legend so rudely. You BJJ guys are so annoying you think your unstoppable but lets face it BJJ is not the ultimate art is it? Even your own masters have respect for other martial arts that have merit its people like YOU who give BJJ and MMA a bad name.
Surely not how I learned this technique. Calling something a double wrist lock and it actually being one is a totally different story. I read an email with my own eyes that my coach and friend got from both of these men thanking him for his new series so they could study it and add it to their content. In terms of bjj these guys are blue belts possibly purple. Go to Chicago if you want to learn from the best.
Jake Shannon is a catch wrestling enthusiast, hypnotist (no lie, he has shows in las vegas I think) and author. He started scientific wrestling in response to the bullshit surrounding Tony Cecchine and in particular, Mark Furey. Me personally, Tony is actually legit, there are just questions about his training and claims. Tony would argue that this is improper because there is no forearm to forearm contact. The double wrist lock is a COMPOUND manuever. It attacks the forearm and shoulder
now i have LOADS of respect for billy robinson but when he said the the double wrist lock (kimura) was done in wrestling thousands of years ago (which i dont daught) but i disagree with what he said that the japanese didnt see until wrestling influence because jujitsu is an OLD style just the name 'jujitsu' is fairly new. but still good stuff lol makes bjj look like childs play
@Amarksyhk Well, BJJ calls it a Kimura, because they learnt it from the Judoka Kimura. Some Judo guys 'might' have learnt the DWL from actch wrestlers, and Maeda travelled the globe for challenge matches. But it's such a simple concept, most grappling arts probably have their own version of it. I don't mind Billy's grouchyness, it's funny imo.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Why is it that catch wrestlers want to make everything more complex and difficult than it has to be? ALl while being major league DICKS. First of all, a simple hip switch and leg over the head will secure the guy to the mat I don't know who RObinson has been observing who acutally lean back that way. And what about the dick move of elbow pressure to release the grip? Once the lock is in, you're almost done, if you switch and get the leg over the grip will release.
Billy is an all around wrestling legend, he would be awesome to learn amatuer wrestling as well as catch wrestling from. From his days as a freestyle champion in the UK to his days training at Wigan, he was one bad mofo and deserves a ton of respect.
I am a blue belt in BJJ and I discovered catch wrestling after watching Sakuraba. Catch Wrestling is brutal no-nonsense stuff!!! I wish more BJJ schools would take knowledge from catch wrestling!
I followed a link over from lockflow, where some Canadian "catch" guy was talking smack about the way Cecchine teaches the double wrist lock, which involves an underhand grip and twist. Why he (and others who come from the pro-wrestling version of "catch") pretend it's harder to train yourself to grip under rather than over on the wrist is beyond me. Also, why they set the lock up (wrist into armpit) so that the counter is so ready is baffling. Have both applied. Decide for yourselves.
what i dont understand about catch wrestling is how it has become so under represented in todays grappling world. the founder of BJJ and one of the greatest ever judoka; Maeda (sp?) was beaten frequently whilst wrestling in the uk. what happened to this proud, champion level, wrestling?
It got involved with the seedy underworld that was pro wrestling. It became secretive and, distrustful of outsiders to the point when someone would come and ask about it, they'd likely be so brutalized as to never want anything else to do with it.
Imagine if catch had a Kano, or Carlson Gracie, jr. type of person who wanted to teach the art to the millions folkstyle wrestlers in the USA.
Bull$hit is right. That move is as much a Kimura as a gutwrench suplex is a Karelin Lift. Alexis Karelin didn't event the suplex and Kimura sure as hell didn't event the submission.
this is amazing i have friends in wigan and alot of them seem to be great submission wrestlers and i didnt know why but there seems to be a long tradition of submission wresling in the area.
I am a bjj brown belt and have done Judo and wrestled....
And to be honest the submission wrestling and bjj lot could learn alot from catch.
Catch guys do it differently but it is very technical and also they exploit knees and elbows in flesh and bone..... if you havent experienced it or trained it you dont know how usefull catch is.
@jett888 its an old catch wrestling, etiquette of saying like "im better respect me"and this lesson i teach is for you to discover humility and earn dignity..thats why training in catch or catch as catch can is somewhat brutal...
It must also be a "guy" thing- I'd feel so uncomfortable hurting somebody. But I do understand what you are saying. But w/ the jiu-jitsu background, if you don't respect the tap, damage to a teammate can occur- respect or not. (the instructor would kick somebody's butt for not letting go after a teammate tapped.-unless he needs an attitude adjustment.) thanks! :~}
yeah but this is catch its some macho thing they do u dig?hehe they dont even pull guard cos in the olden time way back before the carney days they fought on hard ground hehe
I think someone as experienced and legendary in Catch as Billy Robinson knows the exact pressure to use and what does damage. Besides he's doing a demonstration so he can just ease off the hold without losing position to start over again.
I wonder how brutal those old actually miners were, at least to insiders. A working man has need of his limbs to do his job and, a broken arm, or leg prevents him from earning a living. Maybe to outsiders, but only to those they didn;t want around.
Good stuff!! I do jiu jitsu and I love doing kimuras, butl the little details that the second guy gave were awesome!! I'm definitely going to try that in class.
This video helped me clean up my sloppy DWL I had learned. I locked it up chest low and as soon as I moved the leg over the head I got a tap. Good stuff!
Lol true that...these are exactly the same things Tony teaches, up to the elbow press to get the wristlock and the keylock. But certainly his are wrong ;-)
Which reminds me that Tony always seemed to get a lot of shit for "cranking the moves" on his training partners, now when Billy Robinson does the same thing, it seems to be great fun. ;-)
well said. if catch is to make a comeback, ppl need to stop bickering and arguing. if ppl have ever tried it, most of the time they aren't really cranking it, it's just that they are so tight, and it isn't purposely made to be safer ala judo, and bjj for example. and in sambo, twisting is illegal, that's why they all use the famed "monkey grip" so you can't twist. Lou Thesz's word is good enough for me, as is Gene Labell's and Doug Blubaugh, and Mark Shultz
actually there is a video on here somewhere where Lou Thesz is talking about hookers, he mentioned 3 names that I remember, Karl Gotch, Billy Robinson, and Tony Cecchine.
"and it isn't purposely made to be safer ala judo, and bjj for example"
Then it probably won't be more than a fringe style. You can't attract a large crowd if everyone is getting hurt.
You also didn't mention freestyle and, folkstyle wrestling! They've done more to make those sport safer than Judo, or BJJ. ANd, by BJJ instructor, a 4th degree blackbelt from Brazil, seems to know all about those special ways of adding pressure and, pain before he ever completes the move!
Yes. If you want to promote a style where he participants are brutal to each other, it's going to remain a small group.
Also, many of these Catch guys try to promote their art as being something superior to Judo, or BJJ. Billy seemed to insinuate that BJJ players are not as competent as his boys because they are too gentle, or something similiar. My experience training with my instructor gives me the impression that he could be quite brutal in his application of locks.
so what if it's a small group? that's why many arts get laughed at, especially in the west. because nobody does the real deal, they gotta make it soft, or "watered" down. i'm sure training karate in okinawa is quite different than in the states for instance. i don't know billy, but A LOT of bjj people are guilty of the same thing, thinking their art is superior to all others. everyone's biased. but i think each is superior to others in certain ways, weaker than others in other ways.
not really, these arent just hypothetical questions, representatives of martials have versed each other in no rules/ modified rules situations. its not true to say that its a rock-paper-scisor situation. in gracies in action you see the gracies competing against challengers from many different backgrounds. similarly you can watch the evolution of styles in mma - certain styles did noticably better when put to the test - kick boxing, wrestling and jiu jitsu were the 3 standouts
for example, in catch vs bjj/judo for example. the reason catch is sometimes considered more effective or brutal is the philosophy of the art, as well as the mechanics. the entire arm is tight/twisted when doing DWL vs doing a kimura without twisting the arm first. its also supposed to be done with the entire body weight against the joint (for all locks) and at a different angle than alot of other guys do it. which is why Tony C always says "no time to tap" because its simply broken...more
I call that a kimura ?
shibuyagto 2 weeks ago
that bald guy is beast
Deface94 3 weeks ago
Very cool!
growpowerful 1 month ago
@Sersons Even before Pankration. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs of wrestling moves that predate what we know from Greece. I reckon before the first caveman threw a punch at another guy, he probably pounced on him first.
KJGould 1 month ago 3
jake shannon looks like a lightbulb that talks and has weird facial expressions.
kingblubalz 2 months ago
I always love seeing these guys just crack up as the guest demonstrators put them in surprisingly painful submissions. Haha!
ruebuscm 3 months ago
I believe this is a reverse ude garami, aka the kimura. ude garami i think is the japanese term for a keylock/americana.
xbm 3 months ago
I think this is a reverse ude garami. It's hard to really say who invented what. I mean, a lot of these techniques are simple, and many different styles began using them without knowledge anyone else knew it. How would a catch wrestler in the early 1900s know that a double-wrist lock is a ude garami in judo, and how would a judoka know that it'd eventually become the "kimura"?
xbm 3 months ago
@xbm I know what your sayig but remember judo didnt begin to evolve till the late 1800s judo isnt even 160 years old. Old style samurai ju jitsu was hundreds of years older.
antowalk 2 months ago
@xbm Alot of these catch as catch can moves were developing in the late 1700s-1800s to be more precise catch even has even older influences that go back as far as the Roman period in great britain.
antowalk 2 months ago
@xbm There are European manuscripts from the renaissance that show a bent armlock like the Double Wrist Lock, that predate Europes first entry into Japan by a hundred years. It's very possible though that similar moves are discovered independently of each other since there are only a certain number of ways to hyper extend or hyper rotate a limb.
KJGould 1 month ago
At 2:14, he is thinking "That was my favorite arm."
HandRpuffin 3 months ago
SEE HOW I'M PUSHING HIS HEAD DOWN?
THAT ADDS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PRESSURE
narf narf
orangeiceice12 3 months ago
The Japanese didn't call it a Kimura, they called it the Ude Garami. The name Kimura came from the Gracies, who named it in honor of Kimura, who broke Helio's arm with it.
MrPotatoesLatkie 4 months ago
Cant wait for his seminar
GillyHD 4 months ago
catch as catch can rules
KShamrockNo1 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
id like to visit this gym, these guys look like love able idiots.
You guys need Judoka?
judopathoftruth 5 months ago
id like to visit this gym, these guys look like loveable idiots.
judopathoftruth 5 months ago
Isent this how everyone does a kimura lock.
b7r7u7c7e 5 months ago
I love all the catch guys, they're so sadistic when demonstrating lol. I've seen a lot of Japanese guys demo and torture guys lol I want to train some catch. I'm a BJJ Blue Belt
dannielpreto 5 months ago
rigidtoolman is a rigid tool u need to learn some respect! dumb ass
shanesuch1977 5 months ago
the guy with long blonde hair seems like a douche
MegaElectric1000 5 months ago
@MrBladeCrash: Pankration is a martial thought to have existed even long before 648 B.C.E., so in reality the Catch roots (along with almost every grappling art) came directly from the ancient greek art.
Azrael561 6 months ago
@Azrael561
Well, if you want to get historical about it, they had wrestling in Egypt and Babylon long before the rise of Greece. Just like Egyptian and Babylonian mathematics probably influenced Greek math it's very likely that the wrestling traditions of those cultures influenced pankration as well.
Wrestling goes back a long time in Mesopotamia, even being mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Giving all the credit to Greece for inventing catch seems a bit Eurocentric.
Grapplefan12000 6 months ago
2:32 lol
smokenfly514 6 months ago
2:39 Balls to you
HM2028 7 months ago
Why is it that every wrestler comes across as a douche bag? Even the old man is douche. Legend or not. He likes to abuse people by hurting them uh. I wojnder how much his wrestling will help his old ass if one just punch him on the face for holding a sub that long to show off. The young bold guy is a total douche too. Say what you will about BJJ or Judo but at least there's some honor in it. Douches! Punks!
wyxvt 8 months ago
@wyxvt
Utter fail... Just no. The Gracies slapped people to challenge them to fights. And he's right. what Jiujitsu and Judo people "discovered" was done thousands of years ago.
chiconspiracy 8 months ago
@chiconspiracy By that logic, they catch guys also "discovered" it. In fact, that's how human society works, we stand on the shoulders of the giants of the past. Nowadays, we have to wait until the copyright lapses, but it's done in the same way.
MrPotatoesLatkie 4 months ago
@wyxvt That's funny...I seem to recall one Royce Gracie holding onto his opponents at the first few UFCs long after they tapped
MrPhenomenal7 7 months ago
@wyxvt Plus they know when they're hurting someone. The key is to not seriously hurt them. It's stretching not tearing or injurying.
MrPhenomenal7 7 months ago
@wyxvt this is fighting,dont be a sissy.
WrestlingGorilla 6 months ago
@wyxvt I think it's the nature of old pro wrestling. It was a small club full of con men who used brutality to keep new comers out. If you could make it through the ringer, you had access. Also, lot's of older BJJ guys, especially those from Carlson's lineage have a style that similar to catch. It's pressure and, the "kimura" that they teach is very much like this. You're pinned to the ground, your arm is isolated and, your shoulder joint could be ripped apart.
MrPotatoesLatkie 4 months ago
Just to clarify what Mr. Robinson said (and he clarified in another video): the Double Wristlock is known in Judo and Ju Jitsu as Ude Garami (I don't know what that means), Brazilian Ju Jitsu practitioners call it Kimura since judoka Masahiko Kimura used this lock to beat Helio Gracie in Brazil. According to Mr. Robinson, Kimura learned this move from Karl Gotch.
exe2517 9 months ago
@exe2517: I'm sure Mr. Robinson (along with every Catch-Wrestler) claimed such a thing but, unfortunately, the Kimura/Ude Garami/Double Wrist Lock has been in Judo since the beginning. This submission is a modified technique where it's ancestry can be traced to the ancient art of Pankration. Kano Jigoro modified the lock from old scriptures that belonged to the Samurai.
Azrael561 7 months ago
@Azrael561 haha, omg dude you just proved yourself wrong. Judo got the hold from pankration, true. but do you know what pankration was? a combination of boxing and WRESTLING.
luchador1764 6 months ago
Has your catch wrestling group ever challenged a BJJ team in a submission competition? I would love to see Catch demonstrated against BJJ. I don't like to see it when Catch is combined with BJJ in the same gym. I saw a BJJ team beat a Russian Sambo team and BJJ teams are always challenging Judo teams who only know standup and throws but not ground grappling. Newaza Judo groups are hard to find now. I would love to see BJJ humbled vs. Catch.
khalsasikh 9 months ago
@khalsasikh style vs style is pointless. The BJJ of today isn't the BJJ of 50 years ago when Helio was doing challenge matches. BJJ has evolved to include aspects of other arts such as more modern Judo (compared to the 'Judo' of Maeda), Wrestling, Sambo and yes Catch. They still call it BJJ and not all give credit to other arts, but some do. Forward thinkers like Rigan Machado, Marcelo Garcia, Ryan Hall, Stephan Kesting, Ricardo Liborio (to a name a few) are good reps of BJJ in this regard.
KJGould 9 months ago
@KJGould What techniques and from what other art is Marcelo Garcia giving props. Daniel D'Dane told me he saw Marcelo Garcia train with Luta Livre guys in Brazil.
BurtonGrappling 8 months ago
Having seen his hay day some four decades ago, it's a bit sad to see him looking sort of frail. He confessed in his autobiography that he suffered drinking problem for years. Hope he will live long. Still a great wrestler.
mmmoroi 9 months ago
Revolutionary!
lionheartinfidel 9 months ago
British legend!
wildncrazymofo 9 months ago
Love the elbow to the shoulder to make um release.
rickyt247 9 months ago
Im just starting MMA, but im doing some CACC and BJJ together. Love them both!
randomdude6662007 10 months ago
its like a kimura wit a teabag lol
johnny33ish 10 months ago
Why on the descriptions and the tags for the video you don't list jake shannon ??
Getaccount321 10 months ago
this guys hair changes every day
AdrianAwesome69 10 months ago
i bet the 4 dislikes on this video came from Renzo, Royce, Royler and Ryan Gracie... haunted by the double wrist lock...
TyVoltage88 11 months ago 11
@TyVoltage88 Yeah, but Sakuraba is a shell of himself and, hasn't done much to promote his art. Despite losing to him, the Gracies have made sure that GJJ/BJJ is the most popular submission grappling art going. There are 3 BJJ and, 2 Judo schools in my county. The only wrestling is youth and, high school. No one has heard of catch.
MrPotatoesLatkie 4 months ago
@TyVoltage88 But Ryan Gracie's dead.
MrScr3wy 1 week ago
I keep coming back to the Billy Robinson videos. Man, this guy is truly a master.
clipophile 11 months ago
The real pressure comes from resting my giant nutsack on your left ear. . . see!
zapwatt 1 year ago
Billy Robinson is basically the worlds deadliest Grandpa
tomrichugpeltho 1 year ago 25
The Ude garami is part of the Katame no Kata ( Kansetsu waza section) which is known to have been established in the 1880s. Thought to have beene years of 1884 or 1885 is usually cited.
So if Gotch showed him anything, Kimura may have just nodded politely, but he most definitely understood the double wrist lock long before her ever met Gotch, or visited Wigan.
MrPotatoesLatkie 1 year ago
Great stuff!
flowjitsu1337 1 year ago
@racingmylife15 ralek would of submitted him if the time didn't run out.
BGLethal 1 year ago
@panther2552 rickson would of destroyed him dumbass. sakuraba is good against jiujitsu but nothing else. nothing against catch wrestling and billy robinson, but sakuraba was only good against jiujitsu artists.
BGLethal 1 year ago
@BGLethal He subbed a luta livre great aswell as many great strikers and other sub wrestlers so reckon he wasn't just good against GJJ practitioners. As for Rickson destroying him, if that were they case Rickson shouldn't have backed out of the fight twice and still kept talking about how easily he could be him. Rickson was content fighting hand picked opponents to keep his 400-0 record that his own father called a joke intact.
panther2552 1 year ago
@panther2552 True true. Both Rickson and Royce also backed out of a fight with Johhny Huskey - student of the great Billy Wicks. Catch is devastating.
YorkshireGripper 11 months ago
Major teabag at 2:34
WAcrazy449 1 year ago
some weird ass looking people yo,cool move though
ABUDHABICOMBATCLUBOA 1 year ago
haha dude owen wilson meet bruno
JustListenGeorge 1 year ago
STop bashing BJJ! i love all grappling why must we argue what is the best???
purenoobsclan 1 year ago
Awesome lesson, thanks for sharing!
theskitso 1 year ago
he beat some gracies. royce beat him and so did ralek. sakuraba never could of done anything towards rickson.
BGLethal 1 year ago
@BGLethal Saku beat Royce in prime. Royce used steroids for their 2nd fight was caught and suspended for the remainder of his fight license. Ralek got a good win, but at 24 he should win against a 41 year old battleworn Sakuraba. Finally, Rickson never fought anyone in MMA with much skill other than Funaki. He backed out of fighting Sakuraba twice while continuing to say he could beat him easily. basically he was just all talk when it came to facing Saku.
panther2552 1 year ago
@BGLethal Ralek and Royce beat him, but them couldn't submit him...And that's the important part! :)
racingmylife15 1 year ago
@racingmylife15 Royce is my hero, but you have to give Sakuraba credit. He beat two Gracies and was a significant contender against Ralek even in his 40s. The gracies represent the highest talent in the jiu jitsu world, but they aren't the end all be all of jiu jitsu. There are lots of other world class grapplers out there. Sakuraba is still among them, and definitely was in his prime.
clipophile 1 year ago
@clipophile I'm a big fan of both sakuraba and royce! what sakuraba has done is amazing and i'll always admire him. Royce is great too...showing his warrior spirit in the early UFC events. I would have liked to see sakuraba fight royce in submission grappling (no-gi)...
racingmylife15 1 year ago
@clipophile Sakuraba beat 4 gracies.. not 2
kiko4685 1 year ago
@kiko4685 You're right. I forgot about Ryan and his first match with Royce.
clipophile 1 year ago
@clipophile Royce, Renzo, Ryan and Royler were the Gracie's he beat.
panther2552 1 year ago
@racingmylife15 All that to say, I think you have a good point.
clipophile 1 year ago
2:19
*TAPS*
Billy:
"...Yeah, but I've not put pressure on yet."
XD
I'd probably do the same ^^
SolidMike84 1 year ago
I had the pleasure (and pain) of a 2-hour private with Billy Robinson. After 2 hours of training, he got on the floor and taught me the Double Wrist Lock. The "Kimura" will never be the same.
His details turned this from a "big guy move" to me - at 5'4 1/4 and 145 pounds - having it succesfully done against a much larger man.
BurtonGrappling 1 year ago
If Jake Shannon is so good why does he not fight. NO RESPECT JAKE
dacreepa2 1 year ago
@dacreepa2 If Cus D'amato was so good Why didn't he fight?
brottarnacke 1 year ago
Mr Billy Robinson was by far when wrestlered the very best of the best. He performed world wide this man had as many holds as the others had big mouths. He was fast and man Billy was on the top list of wrestlers. There were bigger names manly entertainers however Billy had the "Holds" . 5/5 Age may had slowed the great man but even now I certainly would not like BR to place a hold on yar.
yankeeclipper2 1 year ago
u gotta have teeth :D
im2fast4yall 1 year ago
I'm impressed by this. Well done you guys.
1000Demons 1 year ago
I am a BJJ guy and have a Huge amount of respect for CACC... I think both sides are guilty in claiming in which is a superior art I think Both CACC, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sambo , Submission Wrestling all complement each other and I think instead of arguing with one another why not just learn it all?? Cant we all be friends here when it comes to the arts and learn from each other???
TheGoongala 1 year ago 3
@TheGoongala
I agree with you. To me all grappling is just... grappling. It´s all the same. The differences come out when you have to set the rules for competition.
Competition rules are what make such styles. Methodologies of teaching or training too.
When people say XYZ is best/better tan ZYX one has to wonder: better for what?
So to me what it´s best is not competition but being able to train, share with others and have fun while grappling.
CARNICEROLOCO 1 year ago
@TheGoongala
@TheGoongala
I agree with you. To me all grappling is just... grappling. It´s all the same. The differences come out when you have to set the rules for competition.
Competition rules are what make such styles. Methodologies of teaching or training too.
When people say XYZ is best/better tan ZYX one has to wonder: better for what?
So to me what it´s best is not competition but being able to train, share with others and have fun while grappling.
CARNICEROLOCO 1 year ago
@TheGoongala
CARNICEROLOCO 1 year ago
funny :)
Theitisme400 1 year ago
He might use a walking stick, but you know Mr Robinson could rip you limb from fucking limb without even trying. And what a body of knowledge, he's like a colossal yoda.
nutsack325 1 year ago 48
@nutsack325 Check out Mr.Robinson's gravelly old skool voice.He sounds like Rocky's old skool trainer Mickey,if he'd learned martial arts."HE'LL KILL YA TUH DEATH INSIDE OF 2 ROUNDS,ROCK! YOU ONLY KNOW THAT BJJ (BLEEP)!"
ATACXGYM 1 year ago
@nutsack325 GOKOR CHIVICHYAN HAS A DEEPER KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE HUMAN BODY THAN ANYONE ELSE ALIVE IN YHIS WORLD.
eteb0000 6 months ago
@nutsack325 Only if you'd let him, otherwise, he's too crippled to train, or fight.
MrPotatoesLatkie 4 months ago
If you pull the arm the other way in that position you will injure the guy SERIOUSLY.
Mider999 1 year ago
I heard Robinson is legit but Shannon doesnt seem to know wtf he's talking about
Mider999 1 year ago
thats called RIPPING
BRabbit4542 1 year ago
the old man stuck his cock right in that fags mouth! The modified kimura I have seen for years now and that guy looks like a nutt job
and where is your tooth?
1lostinspace 1 year ago
@1lostinspace Why dont you watch your stupid mouth? And while your at it learn some damn respect you internet freak.
Mider999 1 year ago
@Mider999
far from stupid, You can say what you want about me. I have been at this for 17 years and can tell you these guys are not more knowledgeable then a blue belt in BJJ
1lostinspace 1 year ago
@1lostinspace Nobody called you stupid did they? I said your mouth was stupid cause your talking about a legend so rudely. You BJJ guys are so annoying you think your unstoppable but lets face it BJJ is not the ultimate art is it? Even your own masters have respect for other martial arts that have merit its people like YOU who give BJJ and MMA a bad name.
Mider999 1 year ago
Surely not how I learned this technique. Calling something a double wrist lock and it actually being one is a totally different story. I read an email with my own eyes that my coach and friend got from both of these men thanking him for his new series so they could study it and add it to their content. In terms of bjj these guys are blue belts possibly purple. Go to Chicago if you want to learn from the best.
MMAderyl 1 year ago
@MMAderyl lol your post is retarded
newerest1 1 year ago
YOU GOTTA BELIEVE CERTAIN JOINT LOCKS HAVE BEEN FIGURED OUT FOR CENTURIES BUT RE NAMED THRU OUT THE AGES
txteabagger 1 year ago
What is the hitchiking thing at the end is it a compression lock or a shoulder lock? What is it ? Anyone?
onetao8 1 year ago
@onetao8 well best way have to get film on it to show ya let me know and remind me k
MasterHatfield 1 year ago
He sounds like a god damn DBZ character
RASHskins 1 year ago
yo kimora came to the us and wrestled with the shooters and learned the double wrist lock.
adamd88 1 year ago
jake shannon looks like a penis
JohnnyAwesome420 1 year ago
at 1:24 Billy Robinson sais "my boy Sakuraba"...who else could say that...Sakuraba was his boy...both Legends...
quebecgal 1 year ago 4
Billy Robinson was a legendary shooter who trained wrestlers for Verne Gagne before building a reputation in Japan. Jake Shannon i've never heard of.
eltubster14 1 year ago
Jake Shannon is a catch wrestling enthusiast, hypnotist (no lie, he has shows in las vegas I think) and author. He started scientific wrestling in response to the bullshit surrounding Tony Cecchine and in particular, Mark Furey. Me personally, Tony is actually legit, there are just questions about his training and claims. Tony would argue that this is improper because there is no forearm to forearm contact. The double wrist lock is a COMPOUND manuever. It attacks the forearm and shoulder
zaphbrannigan 1 year ago
@zaphbrannigan
The Double Wrist lock seems to have potentially three points of attack depending on the grip used--the forearm, the elbow and the shoulder.
RPenta 1 year ago
@zaphbrannigan But Billy Robinson is legit too isnt he? I mean thats what i heard Lou Thesz say didnt he? Im just wondering.
Mider999 1 year ago
now i have LOADS of respect for billy robinson but when he said the the double wrist lock (kimura) was done in wrestling thousands of years ago (which i dont daught) but i disagree with what he said that the japanese didnt see until wrestling influence because jujitsu is an OLD style just the name 'jujitsu' is fairly new. but still good stuff lol makes bjj look like childs play
Amarksyhk 1 year ago
@Amarksyhk Well, BJJ calls it a Kimura, because they learnt it from the Judoka Kimura. Some Judo guys 'might' have learnt the DWL from actch wrestlers, and Maeda travelled the globe for challenge matches. But it's such a simple concept, most grappling arts probably have their own version of it. I don't mind Billy's grouchyness, it's funny imo.
KJGould 1 year ago
yeah i know were the term came from lol and yeah it was funny i just thought i should clearify or give my interpretation oft the origins of the move
Amarksyhk 1 year ago
Comment removed
samluke8121 1 year ago
he looks like Owen Wilson without teeth lmao
SuperMasterTroll 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Why is it that catch wrestlers want to make everything more complex and difficult than it has to be? ALl while being major league DICKS. First of all, a simple hip switch and leg over the head will secure the guy to the mat I don't know who RObinson has been observing who acutally lean back that way. And what about the dick move of elbow pressure to release the grip? Once the lock is in, you're almost done, if you switch and get the leg over the grip will release.
RightWingCon81 1 year ago
Это трудно выучить новые вещи, когда вы считаете, что вы уже знаете лучше!
sambofighter9206 1 year ago
Billy is an all around wrestling legend, he would be awesome to learn amatuer wrestling as well as catch wrestling from. From his days as a freestyle champion in the UK to his days training at Wigan, he was one bad mofo and deserves a ton of respect.
STEALTH872003 2 years ago 3
the "wrestling dummy" guy, looks like jeff daniels from dumb and dumber hahaha, harry hahaha
ridgidtoolman 2 years ago 29
YA know, i was trying to figure out who he looked like the whole time, then i saw this comment and a lightbulb went off in my head hhahahahaha
JustinThoj 1 year ago
@ridgidtoolman He looks more like Owen Wilson with a missing tooth lol
retawdee 10 months ago
great vid, love the lock around 4:23
eagles51593 2 years ago 2
Thank You for this video, I learned quite a bit, I could never get the Key Lock or Kimmura, helped me immensely.
sarahslayer 2 years ago
I am a blue belt in BJJ and I discovered catch wrestling after watching Sakuraba. Catch Wrestling is brutal no-nonsense stuff!!! I wish more BJJ schools would take knowledge from catch wrestling!
Raokenx 2 years ago
I followed a link over from lockflow, where some Canadian "catch" guy was talking smack about the way Cecchine teaches the double wrist lock, which involves an underhand grip and twist. Why he (and others who come from the pro-wrestling version of "catch") pretend it's harder to train yourself to grip under rather than over on the wrist is beyond me. Also, why they set the lock up (wrist into armpit) so that the counter is so ready is baffling. Have both applied. Decide for yourselves.
palindabomb 2 years ago
IS THIS THE DUDE FROM DUMB AND DUMBER
MrSICKMOTHERFUCKER 2 years ago
Catch is awesome
schaelakhan 2 years ago
Comment removed
TyVoltage88 2 years ago
what i dont understand about catch wrestling is how it has become so under represented in todays grappling world. the founder of BJJ and one of the greatest ever judoka; Maeda (sp?) was beaten frequently whilst wrestling in the uk. what happened to this proud, champion level, wrestling?
NorthernDaveTN2 2 years ago
It got involved with the seedy underworld that was pro wrestling. It became secretive and, distrustful of outsiders to the point when someone would come and ask about it, they'd likely be so brutalized as to never want anything else to do with it.
Imagine if catch had a Kano, or Carlson Gracie, jr. type of person who wanted to teach the art to the millions folkstyle wrestlers in the USA.
MrPotatoesLatkie 2 years ago
Bull$hit is right. That move is as much a Kimura as a gutwrench suplex is a Karelin Lift. Alexis Karelin didn't event the suplex and Kimura sure as hell didn't event the submission.
AmericanCombatAssoc 2 years ago
this is amazing i have friends in wigan and alot of them seem to be great submission wrestlers and i didnt know why but there seems to be a long tradition of submission wresling in the area.
antowalk 2 years ago
The Double Wrist Lock is the actual name and predates the Kimura or Figure Four according to Billy.
FireProMMA 2 years ago
Love these videos, but that blond haired prick is annoying, better off on Dumb and dumber.
ReDeV7 2 years ago
Billy Robinson is a legend.
I am a bjj brown belt and have done Judo and wrestled....
And to be honest the submission wrestling and bjj lot could learn alot from catch.
Catch guys do it differently but it is very technical and also they exploit knees and elbows in flesh and bone..... if you havent experienced it or trained it you dont know how usefull catch is.
truemanc 2 years ago 2
at 2:25 when the guy taps- what happened to the instant release??
Do we not respect the tap??
jett888 2 years ago
As long as ya don't put anymore pressure on its all good.. Helps built flexibility by holding it .. :D
SudoJudo1 2 years ago
@jett888 its an old catch wrestling, etiquette of saying like "im better respect me"and this lesson i teach is for you to discover humility and earn dignity..thats why training in catch or catch as catch can is somewhat brutal...
gabbomushy 2 years ago
It must also be a "guy" thing- I'd feel so uncomfortable hurting somebody. But I do understand what you are saying. But w/ the jiu-jitsu background, if you don't respect the tap, damage to a teammate can occur- respect or not. (the instructor would kick somebody's butt for not letting go after a teammate tapped.-unless he needs an attitude adjustment.) thanks! :~}
jett888 2 years ago
yeah but this is catch its some macho thing they do u dig?hehe they dont even pull guard cos in the olden time way back before the carney days they fought on hard ground hehe
gabbomushy 2 years ago
I think someone as experienced and legendary in Catch as Billy Robinson knows the exact pressure to use and what does damage. Besides he's doing a demonstration so he can just ease off the hold without losing position to start over again.
KJGould 2 years ago
I wonder how brutal those old actually miners were, at least to insiders. A working man has need of his limbs to do his job and, a broken arm, or leg prevents him from earning a living. Maybe to outsiders, but only to those they didn;t want around.
MrPotatoesLatkie 2 years ago
thats why winning to them is everything..u lose not only in ur standings but in real life...
gabbomushy 2 years ago
It's probably called double wristlock because you grip two wrists (the opponents and yours).
Turkanen 2 years ago
Comment removed
exe2517 2 years ago
i have a question...why is it called a double wrist lock? is it not primarily a shoulder lock?
kempobrad 2 years ago
Excellent job!
pipofcskali 2 years ago
what happened to brandon's tooth? i noticed in a few videos that one of them's gone missing!
aaron4820 2 years ago
The move on 4:09 that Mr. Shannon shows, is that considered to be a kimura, or is their another name for that subission??
TyVoltage88 2 years ago
ude garame...
monji112000 2 years ago
key lock
kempobrad 2 years ago
Thank you!!
TyVoltage88 2 years ago
Top wrist lock.
KJGould 2 years ago
Good stuff!! I do jiu jitsu and I love doing kimuras, butl the little details that the second guy gave were awesome!! I'm definitely going to try that in class.
phi1166 2 years ago
billy robinson is an instructor at my gym in little rock. he is a bottomless pit of submission knowledge. fantastic coach
mattsinger83 2 years ago
hey...is this legal in wrestling but not apply pressure? i was thinking as if u can use it as to pinning a opponent
ecko1777 2 years ago
ya ive used kimuras to control my oponet
alion06 2 years ago
Awesome.
kingcobrabites 2 years ago
Billy Robinson is an absolute legend!
HybridCrossTraining 2 years ago 3
funny stuff but GREAT material. Thank you guys!
catchmyseed7 2 years ago
This video helped me clean up my sloppy DWL I had learned. I locked it up chest low and as soon as I moved the leg over the head I got a tap. Good stuff!
BiggBodyBrougham 3 years ago
It's a rare delight having both Billy and Jake teaching! Jake should do it more often!
SamuraiFrank67 3 years ago 2
Yeah he's almost as good as Tony Cecchine!
CarNikolaj 2 years ago
everyone has the 'you dont do it like me so its wrong" attitude it seems. tony could probably teach the exact same thing and it'd be wrong
kempobrad 2 years ago
Lol true that...these are exactly the same things Tony teaches, up to the elbow press to get the wristlock and the keylock. But certainly his are wrong ;-)
Which reminds me that Tony always seemed to get a lot of shit for "cranking the moves" on his training partners, now when Billy Robinson does the same thing, it seems to be great fun. ;-)
CarNikolaj 2 years ago
well said. if catch is to make a comeback, ppl need to stop bickering and arguing. if ppl have ever tried it, most of the time they aren't really cranking it, it's just that they are so tight, and it isn't purposely made to be safer ala judo, and bjj for example. and in sambo, twisting is illegal, that's why they all use the famed "monkey grip" so you can't twist. Lou Thesz's word is good enough for me, as is Gene Labell's and Doug Blubaugh, and Mark Shultz
kempobrad 2 years ago
actually there is a video on here somewhere where Lou Thesz is talking about hookers, he mentioned 3 names that I remember, Karl Gotch, Billy Robinson, and Tony Cecchine.
kempobrad 2 years ago
"and it isn't purposely made to be safer ala judo, and bjj for example"
Then it probably won't be more than a fringe style. You can't attract a large crowd if everyone is getting hurt.
You also didn't mention freestyle and, folkstyle wrestling! They've done more to make those sport safer than Judo, or BJJ. ANd, by BJJ instructor, a 4th degree blackbelt from Brazil, seems to know all about those special ways of adding pressure and, pain before he ever completes the move!
MrPotatoesLatkie 2 years ago
is there a point to what you said?
kempobrad 2 years ago
Yes. If you want to promote a style where he participants are brutal to each other, it's going to remain a small group.
Also, many of these Catch guys try to promote their art as being something superior to Judo, or BJJ. Billy seemed to insinuate that BJJ players are not as competent as his boys because they are too gentle, or something similiar. My experience training with my instructor gives me the impression that he could be quite brutal in his application of locks.
MrPotatoesLatkie 2 years ago
so what if it's a small group? that's why many arts get laughed at, especially in the west. because nobody does the real deal, they gotta make it soft, or "watered" down. i'm sure training karate in okinawa is quite different than in the states for instance. i don't know billy, but A LOT of bjj people are guilty of the same thing, thinking their art is superior to all others. everyone's biased. but i think each is superior to others in certain ways, weaker than others in other ways.
kempobrad 2 years ago 10
@kempobrad
not really, these arent just hypothetical questions, representatives of martials have versed each other in no rules/ modified rules situations. its not true to say that its a rock-paper-scisor situation. in gracies in action you see the gracies competing against challengers from many different backgrounds. similarly you can watch the evolution of styles in mma - certain styles did noticably better when put to the test - kick boxing, wrestling and jiu jitsu were the 3 standouts
oontyex 1 year ago
for example, in catch vs bjj/judo for example. the reason catch is sometimes considered more effective or brutal is the philosophy of the art, as well as the mechanics. the entire arm is tight/twisted when doing DWL vs doing a kimura without twisting the arm first. its also supposed to be done with the entire body weight against the joint (for all locks) and at a different angle than alot of other guys do it. which is why Tony C always says "no time to tap" because its simply broken...more
kempobrad 2 years ago
no more actually...my bad.
kempobrad 2 years ago
The legendary DWL of Catch as Catch can wrestling and a legend teaching... amazing stuff :)
irishclubswinger 3 years ago
OUCH!!!
lafemmefatalle 3 years ago
this is cool. having billy and jake demonstrating
geneticman13 3 years ago