Christians claim their god exists outside physics which is what time and space essentially is unless I'm mistaken, which would mean outside human sensibility (touch, taste, hear, smell and feel). So the question is, where did the claim originate from? The answer: Nowhere. The same goes with ghosts. No physical attributes=non-existent.
God-illogicity in its purest and most desparate form.
I am a committed Christian. I believe in the uncreated God, who created all things. Your video is awesome! Really instructional. I have used the arguments you have attempted to debunk. I will seriously reconsider my position on this idea. Yes, it is true (and I was thinking this before you said it), that you haven't disproven God. I do like to think I am intelligent and open to learning. So, as a Christian committed to the NT principle of Truth, I applaud your work here on this video. Dave.
@realirishdude Thanks Dave. I appreciate the honest approach to the video. I hope to see more of your comments in the future (sorry for taking so long to respond to you)
it's a very neat concept. it's by no means claiming a god exists. but,an omniverse or super symmetry state share many god-like attributes. god could merely be an eternal reality,not an eternal being. the way i see it,there must be eternality. if nothing is in fact utterly nothing (no space, time, energy, matter, vacuums) something could never be generated. but,since we know something exists, somethingness itself (nature, reality, etc.) must be eternal in some inconceivable way. SHIT,i dunno lol.
basically our universe is a reality of distinction. up/down, left/right, neg/pos, etc. the big bang is the beginning of this distinction from an eternal reality state where past, present, and future all exist simultaneously, and every possible manifestation of reality exists in a sort of quantum wave function..so, nothing/zero wouldn't be empty, it'd be full. a unification..an elimination of the distinction. universes are merely breaks in this super symmetry, or fractions of an eternal whole.
there are theories in theoretical physics such as the idea of an omniverse, or a super symmetry state. there is a user on youtube "10thdim" who interviews Gevin Giobran. he's the author of a book entitled "everything is forever: learning to see timelessness"..he basically explains how the big bang may be an illusion. how it isn't existence from nothing, but existence from everything. basically, everything is nothing, and nothing is everything. (cont)
one last hypothisis could god exist outside of our time meaning could time thare travel faster or slower than it doess here could gods perseption of time be diferent than ours
@nimmnoss "faster" and "slower" are both indications of "time"...a varied "perception" doesn't make you "outside of time." It just means that time is "relative" which Einstein already proved. Time is a MEASUREMENT that HUMANS INVENTED to explain the speed of which things change. It's no different that the "inch."
opinion what is space not what is in it right now but what is it really? outside the universe there is no energy no light certainly no gravity and no time because nothing is out there for time to exist in except in our small universe now can god exist outside of space and time certainly because space is nothing and if the universe exists in nothing it needed a creator to make it out of nothing think what you want we all have opinions
@nimmnoss So I take it that you think that just because a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it that it doesn't make a sound...right?
i think it is very easy for god to exists outside of time because he put it into motion als time is is the rotation of the earth around the sun and our unique orbit around the sun causes the seasons to change other than that time is only a man made concept therefor god very easily exists outside of time
@nimmnoss "WHEN" did this being "outside of time" do this? What did he do BEFORE that? What did he do AFTER that? Do you see? If your god exists and does anything before or after he does anything else, then he's NOT "outside of time."
Outside of our solar system isn't "outside of time" either. You can't reverse time by going around the world in the opposite direction of the rotation, ya know!
You wrote that a creative force (God) existing outside the universe couldn't cause the universe to happen as causality requires time. A creator outside time could never "do anything before anything else"
Well that time requirement disqualifies ANYTHING (an "eternal energy" etc) from creating the universe as time itself began with the Big Bang
Time is relative to the observer but it's not infinite, as proven by the law of entropy and the fact that it is 2.7 degrees Kelvin
God created space and time. Therefore, he must be outside of space and time. Your ideas make no sense. That's like saying that man created a car and must stay inside that car forever and nothing outside the car ever existed. You should be in a rubber room somewhere.
@mickey42743 Soooo....who SHOULD I listen to? The voices in my head? The words in an ancient book that was written by humans but claimed to be by a god?
Oh and none of what I replied with was "opinion." Time IS a measurement. All of the rest were QUESTIONS to you that you DID NOT answer.
@KingHeathen What questions? God created time at the beginning of time. That's obvious. God is eternal. No beginning and no end. Time doesn't exist for Him. Nor will it exist for me in heaven. Why measure time if there is no ending? What would you be counting down to? As far as what was going on before He created time..., we have no way of knowing that. Before He created time for us maybe he was creating the angels. If we needed to know he would have told us in His word.
What was God doing BEFORE he began time? Can you do anything BEFORE anything else without time? Therefore, how did your god BEGIN time if there was no time in which to do it? Your entire concept of time is WRONG! You no more "begin time" than you "begin inches." Time is RELATIVE...not material.
@KingHeathen You are the one not getting it. No beginning + No end = No time. You say yourself that time is a measurement. I agree. It is a measurement. But only in this world. If you are in heaven or hell, there is no time. If you are in eternal torment there will be no clock and no ending point. Time will not matter!!!!! You won't be able to clock out and say, "Well, I'm glad that's finally over." .
@KingHeathen You can't be around eternally without doing something but I wasn't there to know what. Whatever He did then is apparently not important for us to know or it would be in His word.
@mickey42743 If he did something and then did something else...how much TIME went by between those two events? It doesn't matter WHAT he did...IF HE EXISTED and did something (as you admit he would have had to have done) then there was time. If there weren't, he couldn't have done anything!!!!!! Do you see yet? Time is RELATIVE to each individual...but it ALWAYS is "there." My time may be separate from your time, but both of us are IN time...get it?
@KingHeathen Never mind. You will never get it. God does NOT use time!!!!! It doesn't exist where he is!!!!! He created time..., therefore, He existed before time. You are obviously having trouble with the concept of no beginning and no end. It would not make sense to keep "time" under those conditions.
@mickey42743 LOL...I have trouble with the concept of time not existing because there IS NO SUCH THING! Think of it this way...at some point man invented the measuring unit "meter"...prior to the invention of "meter" was something not a certain number of "meters"? Humans invented the concept of time. Time still existed before we gave it a breakdown of seconds and minutes. There is no such thing as "outside of time."
This will be my last reply to you on it because we aren't getting anywhere.
@mickey42743 simple as this. what proof have you got that gd exists outside time?
I can assure you would win the nobel prize for physics and be the most famous scientist for decades if you could prove that something outside of time exists.
Angels dont exist I'm afraid to announce. Only in your head, so in a way you are right. they do exist outside of space and time... as they don't exist at all.
Time, I think does not exist, but its just a measurement. The thing is when religious people say, that God exist outside the universe, which is non-existence, and thus self-contradictory, and it refutes God. If God does exist, it is within the universe, as the universe is vast, and its beyond all dimensions, and undetectable, unknowable, practically impossible to define, and no person has an modicum of any idea of understanding God, and all definitions,are fallacious due to the complexity of God
So harder? If you squeeze and compress matter (A bit fat jelly?) and then try to stick your finger through it, it's slightly more difficult to stick your finger through it...
But you can't have a hole in the middle of the fucking balloon.. because in the middle of the balloon, what is there? Space. You can't go from the middle of a spherical object (such as a balloon), to outside of a spherical object by entering a hole in the middle of it... that would make absolutely no sense. It would be like poking a hole in the air inside the balloon, and then having said air escape through the hole in the air. If you can't make sense out of it, it's because it's not logical.
Time have been defined differently.a]Measurement of change in matter.b]Sequence between two events.C]Measurement between two nows.Any How the question is if the second Event or Now or Change does not Occur, Does tIME EXIST.If no then then this means that no time is possible .If yes then this means that a measurement or a sequence exixts with out any thing to be measured, with out any term of the sequence.FurtherIf NotimeIsImpossible then this means no thing but ceaseing of eventsNowsiSIMPOSSIBLE
You're living in "now" as your read this. It's what you're currently observing, and every force that's currently acting on you. You can't measure now because as you're thinking about now, it's now a different now. Lmfao, it sounds stupid but if you don't get it, you're a true fucking idiot. If everything is a constant now outside of time and the "now" didn't progress, everything would be stuck in one frame of time, and would not be able to do anything, maybe?
WHAT is the defination of Now or it is an undefined term. Similarly what is space in your system of terms. please decide it before discussing anu further.
Now is every fraction of time you move through, mebeh? Now would be the smallest fraction of time possible and would be constantly advancing at a rate that could only be calculated by the knowing the exact rate that the universe is expanding (which is constantly increasing in velocity) and finding out the rate that the fraction would be becoming the past. It's too fucking complicated for me to explain lol, you might get the point, though
But I find it seriously impossible due to the evidence that says so.
The futurist guy says that it is.
Yet ..
We have had no radical changes to our existance, no one knockoing on our doors, their doors, or anyones doors claiming that " OMG UR FROM TEEH FUTUR "
Suppose we are living in a computer simulation like the matrix. We study everything there is know about the simulation and say this is all there is there is nothing outside our reality. We don't need anything outside our reality for us to exist. things just are as the are. All the while totally unaware of everything outside the simulation.
theorists BELIEVE that god created the universe which we are born into as our consiousness requires logic/reason to live in this world as emotions are our neural indications that either there are problems or that everything is fine.if god did create everything then the bible is wrong because its interpretation of him is tyrannical therefore NOT logical or reasonable.ALSO,therefore he cannot exist outside time and space.that would be illogical.
god is the creator of the unvierse according to theists...we are born into this universe and our consciousness is dependant on reason and logic.emotions being neural signals that either there is a problem or that everything is fine (happiness)
the bible's interpretation of god indicates tyranny by throwing souls into hell if we fail to accept jesus into our hearts and have faith god exists,this doesnt sound like a reasonable or logical being now does it?
The 'things' (made of atoms) that are physical and moving, they create time. God is not physical. If there were no physically moving 'things' there would be no time. Since God created all 'things' physical he can exist without them. Therefore, God could exist outside of time.
It is true that if there were no physically moving things there would be no time, but that is moot because there would be nothing without physically moving things. God could not have created all things physical because physical intervention would have been necessary and that would mean a need for a physical god and physical materials with which to create.
God does exists outside of time, in movies like Bruce Almighty, Evan Almighty...after all Morgan Freeman would make a great god.
The God who created every thing physical is not physical himself. If God were physical and infinitely big (it says so in the Bible) we all should be able to see him right now. Since we can't it's not that God is not infinitely big, it's that he is not physical.
"physical materials with which to create." No. The creator CREATED physical materials. Hence the name 'creator'.
OHHH! I got something to ponder! What if EVERYTHING is God? What if the universe is part of God like an atom is part of us? He is everywhere because he is everything, he is every-time because he is our relative time, and he created us because he is us. Wow, I just blew my mind! P.S. I don't believe any of what I just said but still it is interesting.
... and if here was a "time" were there was no atoms there could not be any atoms today. And if they always has been existing, they were never created... and can not exist... but here we are. Woala!! Jah guides.
incorrect...atoms (aka matter) can and were formed by converting energy. Atoms can also be transferred BACK into energy. You should already know this...in fact I bet you do and don't even realize it...
I think you are intelligent, but you assume that a God which could create the very concepts of time and space is not powerful enough to exist separate from his creation. God is all powerful, if he could create the entire universe, if he can be in more than one place at the same time, he is probably capable of traversing time and space. Or altering the before and after, while not disrupting the Time/Space continuum.
yeah, but you saying i'm personifying God is no different then you labeling him with human attributes such as possibility of inbalance, immaturity, lack of strength/boastfulness at incredible strength, and ultimte knowledge, And no one ever said (besides the corrupt catholic church) that God wants slaves. If you read the bible, we are his CHILDREN, not his property. And it says no where about following govt, Jesus said pay unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's, but pay unto God, that which is Gods
a god of the universe is a god of logic and reason,Corpus,NOT power or magic.we are creatures that are born into this world which is a part of the universe,therefore the more we use its resources respectfully,the more happy and healthy we will be.we have ALOT of evolving to do as a race.this god has zero involvement in our lives therefore he does not exist.
Heh, that's assuming God has to follow the same rules we do. As far as I'm concerned, he is believed to "make the rules" Hell, he could be outside of time and still do things before and after he does things. Also, he is believed to be omnipresent, so if being outside of time is a plane of existence or an actual place, he is there and inside of time at the same "time" hehe, *English language is funny like that*.
and your arguement that God is bound by time?! thats laughable, but its the typical arrogant bullshit that athiests come out with all the time....oh yeah, and Christians are stupid, lol come up with something origional please..
I'm really not. But argueing with you, i feel would be a waste of my time. Because I dont believe that everything came from nothing, I'm an idiot...ok.
Excuse me for my ignorance, I'm only a Christian after all.
Here I was thinking that the people claiming to have the answers to the true nature of the universe by citing god and the bible were, thanks for setting me straight.
most theists who make this assertion use classical time rather than relitivistic time. It is possible to exist outside time and space; the laws of logic and numbers and possible worlds all "exist" only in an eternal present and without physical form, but is this real 'existence'? I'm unsure.
What can be concluded is that, IF there IS a cause, the TYPE of cause (personal) cannot be true because it causes actions (changes in time) and has emotional reactions (change in time).
you are using a very narrow way of thinking. No theist would ever say that God exists outside the universe in nothingness. No our arguement is that there is something outside this universe and that God exists there. Why does space and time have to be the only way in which something could opperate. Lets look at string theory, string theory hypothesizes that there could be an infinite number of universes with different characteristics, these universes might opperate with something other...
than space and time. Now I'm not saying that God simply exists in another universe but I'm saying you have to consider that if the universe began with the big bang, a singularity expanding. Well basically what I'm going to get at is that if the universe had a beginning then what ever "began" it has to exist outside the universe. Its like a computer can't make itself. Everything that had a beginning has a cause that is seperate from it. Therefore there is something outside the universe.
That's the problem with human evolution and self-awareness... we have this innate NEED to say "If there's an effect, there must be a cause, therefore God made a very well equipped universe". How about infinity, a concept existing outside of space and time because it is space and time.
You'd have to place God in an alternate dimension, another universe that exists independent of this one that predates this one and has different rules. But then you'd have to determine how that universe came to be.
The most common reaction of your video from a Christian would be to say that the god of the bible does not have to follow logic, and can defy these principles of time and space, even if it does not make sense to mortal minds. What do you think of this counter-argument to your video? I for one find it interesting but lacks burden of proof. Of course, it is impossible to disprove a being that, by definition, is not disprovable so it is somewhat pointless to try and disprove god through science.
this is mostly accurate but at best argues for a stalemate. However, if a god does something and then does something else, then he did one before the other...how long before? As soon as you can ask that question, that god exists within "a time" even if it's not connected fully with OUR time.
Burden of proof lies with the believer. Ask a Christian to prove to you that unicorns don't exist. They can't do it, but that doesn't mean that unicorns exist.
The second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom. From this measurement we determine the length of a meter. If you took all matter and made it smaller, a meter stick would become smaller, but it would NOT be a meter in length. It would only appear as a meter due to our point of view of it. I think this is important to note. As usual, nice presentation King.
King Heathen, a further comment to my previous one. Your misrepresenting known defined theories to make your point is untenable to your cause. If athieses are to use science as their foundation for argument, it is counterproductive for them to misrepresent those theories as you did. Perhaps your argument has some grounds, but your misunderstanding of the theory of relativity makes your video completely useless to validating your point.
Relativity Theory comes in 2 flavors. General and Special. Special Relativity is what I believe that you were trying to use to illustrate your concept. Special Relativity theory has 2 postulates or assumptions. 1) Laws of physics are not affected by uniform motion. 2) Light always propates in a vacuum with a specific velocity independant of the emitting body.
This is what relativity is. The reason its called relativity is due to the "relative" speed of objects. There are many consequences to these postulates such as the relative rate that we move through time due to our speed (called time dialation) which you were trying to refer to in your video. "Time before our universe" is not something that either Einstein's General or Special Relativity can talk about due to the breakdown of the laws of physics at the big bang.
I understand you using science as a basis of your system of belief, but it must be understood that the moment of the Big Bang and prior do not fall in the realm of Science as the equations that govern this blow up to infinity and are useless at that point. I am happy to talk to you further in this regard. My masters degree is in Physics and this is one area that I had to study extensively to do the work required.
There are many good references to the theory of relativity on the web and I can point you to them if you are interested, but once again, it is important to know the subject for your argument to have any foundation.
Science never has the definitive answer to anything. That is what makes it so powerful. Science's ability to change it's point of view based on new observations makes it moldable to what the world is. The universe is the ultimate judge of a scientific theory. This moldability along with the human ego is the all important combination.
To illustrate this idea further, human ego makes it hard to get a new idea accepted by the scientific community, and it is this difficulity that makes researchers work hard to validate their point. So you see science is very moldable and humans make it more solid. It is this balance that works so well and has for thousands of years. Loose one piece and the system doesn't work.
The details of what physics says about the universe is the key to your argument, and therfore my previous points about Relativity are precisely relevant.
Secondly, could you please explain how "Time before our universe is irrelevant to our universe, that's what Relativity is all about" and "1) Laws of physics are not affected by uniform motion. 2) Light always propates in a vacuum with a specific velocity independant of the emitting body. " are the same.
These statements are not the same in any way. Perhaps you are saying that your statement is a consequence of mine, but simply saying it to be true does not make it so. To finish making your point it is necessary for you to make the connection if it is possible.
Didn't say they were...again, back up and understand the limitations of the space. I'm NOT interested in posting a novel of comments...Viewers prefer videos that "get to the point"...while having enough info is important, going too far in depth gets BORING to some. I try to balance that.
Watch my video "Scientists aren't marketable" to see what I mean.
King Heathen.If you are going to use science then do it down to the final detail and with the proper method. Simply saying that "this can be explained because science says it" is invoking your belief in science without your own understanding or thought or willingness to explain it. Your argument is therefore no different than a religious one. What sets science apart is the willingness to study and understand the fine details.
"If you are going to use science then do it down to the final detail"
Seriously, "Scientists aren't marketable"...watch it.
And do me a big favor...before giving me any more advice on how to make my videos....make one of your own.
Reply if you like...but I'm bored of the conversation as you seem to only want to argue against points that aren't being made and make assumptions of errors that don't exist and conclude positions which I don't hold....
Final comment. If anyone studies physics to the lowest levels you find out that nothing is for sure (even time and space). All theories are constructs of the human mind (even if they do work very well) and the universe exists beyond these constructs. Making any claims about what we can't directly observe (i.e. God) is pointless. Therefore anybody trying to argue for or against the existence of God using science is going beyond the limits of science. This is why the details are all important.
King Heathen, Please take the time to study the theory of Relativity if you are going to use it in your video. The statement: "This is relativity and our universe is not not in subject to that relativity. Time before our universe is irrelevant to our universe, that's what Relativity is all about" Is completely incorrect. A quick search on google will tell you very quickly what the theory of Relativity is.
And what else, is that nearly every theist claims that their God has "always been". So if he does stuff after he does other stuff, then he's already done everything he can ever do. An infinite amount of times for that matter. Unless he doesn't do stuff after he does other stuff, so everything he does is just all at once or something.
the very act of stating something or some deity exists "outside of space" is contradictory as "outside" is a measurement of position, and position is a observation of space.
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therefore is blah blah pointless theories unless someone or him are willing to argue and bring something that he can prove to me that God doesn't exist i can bring to the table the copies of the old testament and new testament in their original languages not in the King James versions or other translations i will sit there with this guy read the Word of God in their original text Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek
but thats just a book. a very old book. i have all lord of the rings so il prove that mordor souron an legolas existed. cos the book says they did. i even have there version of the old testement. its calld the simmirilions. so u prove that they dont exist an il belive in god
No people who make claims provide the proof. People who make counter claims attempt to debunk the proof and present counter information. Your making the claim there is no scientific proof of god.
Sorry i meant to say your making the claim there is a god. and then i wanted to put comma and state the is no evidence of it therefore there is nothing for an ahteist to have to debunk. which means really there is no arguement to be had unless believers can bring some thing to the table. but no im not a believe i just have bad grammer lmao
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c'mon plz this guy is a looser to begin he diffies great scientist what has this king heathan done for humanaty all he has is empty theories how can he prove his theories he has empty words worst than any religious person i would challange the poor senseless guy but he has no wisdom or proper intellegence get a life king senseless lol
Oh, I think you should go ahead and "challenge" him, as you say. You look exactly like the kind of person who's able to challenge... well, anyone!
It would be nice, however, if you could perhaps reveal a bit about your specific wisdom or that so-called "proper intelligence" of yours, so that we could get a sense of what areas and subjects you would debate on.
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ook lets start by saying i respect the guy king heathen and his way of thinking but i dont agree for simple reasons the guy has no proof of what he is talking about, he is just expressing his way of thinking he's nor right or wrong he has no proper intelligence he reads what other people has written which aplies to me too neither him or me have actually discover or can prove what we beleive but i so we become like an empmty can that makes noise in alley with insignificant noise
There is no such thing as "dimensions" as conceived by the layman. To the layman, a dimension is a place (and that error clouds and hampers the thinking of many a scientist).
Time is *NOT* a "place".
And, since you cannot distinguish one "dimension" of space from the other by any empirical measurement, there is only one "dimension".
Space is the illusion everything did not happen in the same place and time the illusion it did not all happen at the same instant.
No, hawke123. You are presenting two choices. What do you mean by "chance"? Methinks your definition lacks,
The "cause" was not chance, but did not have to be a "designer". Brane theory (part of superstring theory) is one possibility. The singularity pinch off from a higher level universe is another.
There are myriad possibilities, but they all share one common feature.
Its funny because I was reading an article about this cute female physicist that believes she has detected fifth dimensional particles, so have two other scientist in other projects. Also it is mathematically proven. If I were compressed I would be dead because the higher compresion causes matter to function differently so I would not say anything.
I have an actual point of disagreement with the video. it is my understanding that space, time, energy and matter were all the same "substance" within the singularity and that the expansion caused space/time to separate from energy/matter.
also, i got the impression from "a brief history of time" that time itself can be thought of as a literal fourth dimension along which space expands at a velocity relative to the mass/energy occupying that space, and that this is what probably causes gravity
(cont) and from this cosmological model, space/time didn't exist before the singularity and so there really was not a moment you could describe as "before the singularity."
the explanatory power of this model is that since there was not even "nothing" before the singularity the universe isn't thought of as having come from nothing.
Why are people even arguing this? Even if something is outside the universe it needs space and time to exist. That's why the idea of a multiverse exists, or alternate dimensions. Because if there was just Nothing then Nothing Is There.
If it does not have either it does not exist. It has no before after or any dimensions. That's very explicit criteria for nothing.
Big fan of your videos here - I've thought about this question before and found your take on it very enlightening. I was thinking that, since the bible says god created the earth and the heavens and all that good stuff in seven days, that would make him temporal. But then christians say he also an atemporal god so that doesn't really make sense.
Just how is a being that is omnipotent and immaterial bound by space and time? Its like saying the author of a novel is bound by the rules and events that take place in his book.
yeti, I am not trying to prove that god exists since this is not the point of this video. The point of this video is to make the conclusion that god cannot exists outside of the universe because of the laws inside of the universe. I am just trying to show that that reasoning, is indeed, false. I am not claiming I know anything outside of the universe (that's a different discussion all together), what I am saying is that it is possible for something to exists outside of space and time.
It seems that our problem revolves around the question "can a creator be constrained by a dimension of his creation". You at least agree with me that something outside the universe is not subject to the rules inside the universe. However, you say that god must be limited by time if he created time. At the very fundamental level you are still basing this conclusion on the fact that nothing can exists outside of space and time.
also, to address you watchmaker metaphor: from the perspective of the gears the watchmaker's dance was inconsequential. there is no more reason for the gears to believe that the watchmaker did a dance than for them to believe he momentarily turned into a dragon and flew around the world before fixing the watch. And intellectual honesty demands that they don't pretend to know things they have no way of knowing, even if those things happen to be true.
"what I am saying is that it is possible for something to exists outside of space and time. "
and this...
"what in this universe makes you believe that there is something outside of the universe? "
Are not the same thing. You still want me to try to prove there is a god when that is not the subject at hand. The subject at hand is to show that the reasoning of this video is in fact right/wrong and that it is possible/impossible for god to exists outside of space and time.
i still don't see any reason to believe that anything exists outside of space/time. if there is an existence outside of space/time then there is no way for us to have any knowledge of it. also, i cannot imagine a way for an event to occur outside of space/time.
i concede that because i cannot imagine something doesn't make it impossible, and i'm not saying that it's impossible for there to be something beyond space/time. i'm just saying there's no reason to think anything is.
"i concede that because i cannot imagine something doesn't make it impossible, and i'm not saying that it's impossible for there to be something beyond space/time."
Then we agree. And that was the point of this video, to prove that it is impossible for something to be beyond space/time. My point was that that was not the case. The question of whether there is a reason to think of anything outside or not is a different question all together.
We know that the universe has a beginning via the Big Bang. In this event time, space, matter, and energy were created. The question is, what caused the Big Bang? The cause must be timeless, spaceless, incredibly powerful, it must be highly intelligent because of the order and fine tuning of the universe, and it must be personal otherwise it could not choose to create anything.
the universe has a beginning from the perspective of the inside of the universe. if you could go outside of the universe, you would not be subject to time because time is one of the aspects of the universe. from there the universe would look like one solid 4 dimensional object. this does not need a beginning anymore than a statue has a beginning.
also, a timeless god could not cause events. no time = no events = no creation
Christians claim their god exists outside physics which is what time and space essentially is unless I'm mistaken, which would mean outside human sensibility (touch, taste, hear, smell and feel). So the question is, where did the claim originate from? The answer: Nowhere. The same goes with ghosts. No physical attributes=non-existent.
God-illogicity in its purest and most desparate form.
InsanityComplex1 1 month ago
cool video - the comment before mine is quite funny.
jamesbakerschool 6 months ago
You sounds like an idiot!
Graphiclee63 6 months ago
@Graphiclee63 irony
ilovearmadillos 4 months ago
I am a committed Christian. I believe in the uncreated God, who created all things. Your video is awesome! Really instructional. I have used the arguments you have attempted to debunk. I will seriously reconsider my position on this idea. Yes, it is true (and I was thinking this before you said it), that you haven't disproven God. I do like to think I am intelligent and open to learning. So, as a Christian committed to the NT principle of Truth, I applaud your work here on this video. Dave.
realirishdude 11 months ago
@realirishdude Thanks Dave. I appreciate the honest approach to the video. I hope to see more of your comments in the future (sorry for taking so long to respond to you)
KingHeathen 10 months ago
@realirishdude Dear devoted christian: 1. Have you ever had surgery or used prescription medication?
InsanityComplex1 1 month ago
it's a very neat concept. it's by no means claiming a god exists. but,an omniverse or super symmetry state share many god-like attributes. god could merely be an eternal reality,not an eternal being. the way i see it,there must be eternality. if nothing is in fact utterly nothing (no space, time, energy, matter, vacuums) something could never be generated. but,since we know something exists, somethingness itself (nature, reality, etc.) must be eternal in some inconceivable way. SHIT,i dunno lol.
itzahazylife 1 year ago
basically our universe is a reality of distinction. up/down, left/right, neg/pos, etc. the big bang is the beginning of this distinction from an eternal reality state where past, present, and future all exist simultaneously, and every possible manifestation of reality exists in a sort of quantum wave function..so, nothing/zero wouldn't be empty, it'd be full. a unification..an elimination of the distinction. universes are merely breaks in this super symmetry, or fractions of an eternal whole.
itzahazylife 1 year ago
there are theories in theoretical physics such as the idea of an omniverse, or a super symmetry state. there is a user on youtube "10thdim" who interviews Gevin Giobran. he's the author of a book entitled "everything is forever: learning to see timelessness"..he basically explains how the big bang may be an illusion. how it isn't existence from nothing, but existence from everything. basically, everything is nothing, and nothing is everything. (cont)
itzahazylife 1 year ago
one last hypothisis could god exist outside of our time meaning could time thare travel faster or slower than it doess here could gods perseption of time be diferent than ours
nimmnoss 1 year ago
@nimmnoss "faster" and "slower" are both indications of "time"...a varied "perception" doesn't make you "outside of time." It just means that time is "relative" which Einstein already proved. Time is a MEASUREMENT that HUMANS INVENTED to explain the speed of which things change. It's no different that the "inch."
KingHeathen 1 year ago
opinion what is space not what is in it right now but what is it really? outside the universe there is no energy no light certainly no gravity and no time because nothing is out there for time to exist in except in our small universe now can god exist outside of space and time certainly because space is nothing and if the universe exists in nothing it needed a creator to make it out of nothing think what you want we all have opinions
nimmnoss 1 year ago
@nimmnoss So I take it that you think that just because a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it that it doesn't make a sound...right?
KingHeathen 1 year ago
i think it is very easy for god to exists outside of time because he put it into motion als time is is the rotation of the earth around the sun and our unique orbit around the sun causes the seasons to change other than that time is only a man made concept therefor god very easily exists outside of time
nimmnoss 1 year ago
@nimmnoss "WHEN" did this being "outside of time" do this? What did he do BEFORE that? What did he do AFTER that? Do you see? If your god exists and does anything before or after he does anything else, then he's NOT "outside of time."
Outside of our solar system isn't "outside of time" either. You can't reverse time by going around the world in the opposite direction of the rotation, ya know!
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen
You wrote that a creative force (God) existing outside the universe couldn't cause the universe to happen as causality requires time. A creator outside time could never "do anything before anything else"
Well that time requirement disqualifies ANYTHING (an "eternal energy" etc) from creating the universe as time itself began with the Big Bang
Time is relative to the observer but it's not infinite, as proven by the law of entropy and the fact that it is 2.7 degrees Kelvin
Prologicful 10 months ago
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intermitrj 1 year ago
How can god be outside of space and time if he is omnipresent? He would be both outside of time and inside it at the same time.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
God created space and time. Therefore, he must be outside of space and time. Your ideas make no sense. That's like saying that man created a car and must stay inside that car forever and nothing outside the car ever existed. You should be in a rubber room somewhere.
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 Just think about this question and you'll realize how stupid your statement is to me...
WHEN did God create time? What happened just BEFORE he did? Time isn't something anyone "creates"...it's just a measurement.
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen That is your opinion. A human opinion. I assure you God doesn't lie. Quit listening to humans.
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 Soooo....who SHOULD I listen to? The voices in my head? The words in an ancient book that was written by humans but claimed to be by a god?
Oh and none of what I replied with was "opinion." Time IS a measurement. All of the rest were QUESTIONS to you that you DID NOT answer.
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen What questions? God created time at the beginning of time. That's obvious. God is eternal. No beginning and no end. Time doesn't exist for Him. Nor will it exist for me in heaven. Why measure time if there is no ending? What would you be counting down to? As far as what was going on before He created time..., we have no way of knowing that. Before He created time for us maybe he was creating the angels. If we needed to know he would have told us in His word.
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 You just aren't getting it, are you?
What was God doing BEFORE he began time? Can you do anything BEFORE anything else without time? Therefore, how did your god BEGIN time if there was no time in which to do it? Your entire concept of time is WRONG! You no more "begin time" than you "begin inches." Time is RELATIVE...not material.
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen You are the one not getting it. No beginning + No end = No time. You say yourself that time is a measurement. I agree. It is a measurement. But only in this world. If you are in heaven or hell, there is no time. If you are in eternal torment there will be no clock and no ending point. Time will not matter!!!!! You won't be able to clock out and say, "Well, I'm glad that's finally over." .
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 Did your god do anything before time began?
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen You can't be around eternally without doing something but I wasn't there to know what. Whatever He did then is apparently not important for us to know or it would be in His word.
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 If he did something and then did something else...how much TIME went by between those two events? It doesn't matter WHAT he did...IF HE EXISTED and did something (as you admit he would have had to have done) then there was time. If there weren't, he couldn't have done anything!!!!!! Do you see yet? Time is RELATIVE to each individual...but it ALWAYS is "there." My time may be separate from your time, but both of us are IN time...get it?
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen You will never get it! We are in time. He is not!!!
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 If he isn't "in time" then he can't do anything in any type of sequence which means you just disproved your god.
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen Never mind. You will never get it. God does NOT use time!!!!! It doesn't exist where he is!!!!! He created time..., therefore, He existed before time. You are obviously having trouble with the concept of no beginning and no end. It would not make sense to keep "time" under those conditions.
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 LOL...I have trouble with the concept of time not existing because there IS NO SUCH THING! Think of it this way...at some point man invented the measuring unit "meter"...prior to the invention of "meter" was something not a certain number of "meters"? Humans invented the concept of time. Time still existed before we gave it a breakdown of seconds and minutes. There is no such thing as "outside of time."
This will be my last reply to you on it because we aren't getting anywhere.
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@mickey42743 simple as this. what proof have you got that gd exists outside time?
I can assure you would win the nobel prize for physics and be the most famous scientist for decades if you could prove that something outside of time exists.
markgg1 1 year ago
@mickey42743 creating the angels?
how do people even respond to this.
markgg1 1 year ago
@markgg1 Do you suppose they created themselves?
mickey42743 1 year ago
@mickey42743 are you referring to angels?
Angels dont exist I'm afraid to announce. Only in your head, so in a way you are right. they do exist outside of space and time... as they don't exist at all.
markgg1 1 year ago
Time, I think does not exist, but its just a measurement. The thing is when religious people say, that God exist outside the universe, which is non-existence, and thus self-contradictory, and it refutes God. If God does exist, it is within the universe, as the universe is vast, and its beyond all dimensions, and undetectable, unknowable, practically impossible to define, and no person has an modicum of any idea of understanding God, and all definitions,are fallacious due to the complexity of God
KevZen2000 1 year ago
"Flatland"
ScrapGoldBass 1 year ago
So harder? If you squeeze and compress matter (A bit fat jelly?) and then try to stick your finger through it, it's slightly more difficult to stick your finger through it...
Canadianiac 1 year ago
But you can't have a hole in the middle of the fucking balloon.. because in the middle of the balloon, what is there? Space. You can't go from the middle of a spherical object (such as a balloon), to outside of a spherical object by entering a hole in the middle of it... that would make absolutely no sense. It would be like poking a hole in the air inside the balloon, and then having said air escape through the hole in the air. If you can't make sense out of it, it's because it's not logical.
Canadianiac 1 year ago
IfTimeIsAMeasurementBetweenTwoNowsThenWhatIsANowWhatIsTheMeasurements.OutSideOfTimeMeansOutSideOfTheMeasurementOfTwoNowsIfGodIsNotOutSideTimeThenAsPerTheGivenDefinationOfTimeGodDoesNotExistsOutSideTheMEASUREMENTOfTwoNowsSoGodExistsInTheMeasurementOfTwoNows.NotEvenInTheSoCalledNowsFurtyherIfBothSoCalledNowsExistSimultaniouslyThenThereIsNotBetweenCALLEDnows.ButIfOneSoClledNowOCCUREDAfterTheOtherNowWhichCeasedToExistThenTheMeasurementIsBetweenATLEASToNENonExistingNowAndOneExcistingOrNonexistingNow
maliir 2 years ago
Time have been defined differently.a]Measurement of change in matter.b]Sequence between two events.C]Measurement between two nows.Any How the question is if the second Event or Now or Change does not Occur, Does tIME EXIST.If no then then this means that no time is possible .If yes then this means that a measurement or a sequence exixts with out any thing to be measured, with out any term of the sequence.FurtherIf NotimeIsImpossible then this means no thing but ceaseing of eventsNowsiSIMPOSSIBLE
maliir 2 years ago
The space bar is your friend...don't be afraid of it.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
@KingHeathen lol thats a good one
Shadowfire285 1 year ago
You're living in "now" as your read this. It's what you're currently observing, and every force that's currently acting on you. You can't measure now because as you're thinking about now, it's now a different now. Lmfao, it sounds stupid but if you don't get it, you're a true fucking idiot. If everything is a constant now outside of time and the "now" didn't progress, everything would be stuck in one frame of time, and would not be able to do anything, maybe?
Canadianiac 1 year ago
WHAT is the defination of Now or it is an undefined term. Similarly what is space in your system of terms. please decide it before discussing anu further.
maliir 2 years ago
Now is every fraction of time you move through, mebeh? Now would be the smallest fraction of time possible and would be constantly advancing at a rate that could only be calculated by the knowing the exact rate that the universe is expanding (which is constantly increasing in velocity) and finding out the rate that the fraction would be becoming the past. It's too fucking complicated for me to explain lol, you might get the point, though
Canadianiac 1 year ago
Physical universe in reality dosent exist , how can god created it. all are illusion. famous teory E=mc2 .
OMAIMHREEM 2 years ago
So time travel is impossible
xNightmareBeta 2 years ago
Actually, no. We travel through time everyday!
One second at a time.
; )
KingHeathen 2 years ago
@xNightmareBeta. Search "Is Time Travel Possible?" on Youtube to see how it is possible. Video by Michio Kaku for starters. Take care.
KevZen2000 2 years ago
@xNightmareBeta Apparantly, timetravel IS possible.
But I find it seriously impossible due to the evidence that says so.
The futurist guy says that it is.
Yet ..
We have had no radical changes to our existance, no one knockoing on our doors, their doors, or anyones doors claiming that " OMG UR FROM TEEH FUTUR "
.. point is, it's an odd perspective.
PowerIsOwnage 1 year ago
Suppose we are living in a computer simulation like the matrix. We study everything there is know about the simulation and say this is all there is there is nothing outside our reality. We don't need anything outside our reality for us to exist. things just are as the are. All the while totally unaware of everything outside the simulation.
undertoww 2 years ago
Your kinda right, i never believed in god but i kinda thought that space and time isnt everything....eg, extra dimensions
0121ryanh117 2 years ago 2
yeah but you would have to call that some kinda space
xNightmareBeta 2 years ago
think about this ladies and gentlemen and be reasonable about it,haha
TLSlayer 2 years ago
a borrowed comment here:
theorists BELIEVE that god created the universe which we are born into as our consiousness requires logic/reason to live in this world as emotions are our neural indications that either there are problems or that everything is fine.if god did create everything then the bible is wrong because its interpretation of him is tyrannical therefore NOT logical or reasonable.ALSO,therefore he cannot exist outside time and space.that would be illogical.
TLSlayer 2 years ago
a borrowed comment here,
god is the creator of the unvierse according to theists...we are born into this universe and our consciousness is dependant on reason and logic.emotions being neural signals that either there is a problem or that everything is fine (happiness)
the bible's interpretation of god indicates tyranny by throwing souls into hell if we fail to accept jesus into our hearts and have faith god exists,this doesnt sound like a reasonable or logical being now does it?
TLSlayer 2 years ago
The 'things' (made of atoms) that are physical and moving, they create time. God is not physical. If there were no physically moving 'things' there would be no time. Since God created all 'things' physical he can exist without them. Therefore, God could exist outside of time.
Errosion5bucks 2 years ago
It is true that if there were no physically moving things there would be no time, but that is moot because there would be nothing without physically moving things. God could not have created all things physical because physical intervention would have been necessary and that would mean a need for a physical god and physical materials with which to create.
God does exists outside of time, in movies like Bruce Almighty, Evan Almighty...after all Morgan Freeman would make a great god.
Ringmaster851 2 years ago
The God who created every thing physical is not physical himself. If God were physical and infinitely big (it says so in the Bible) we all should be able to see him right now. Since we can't it's not that God is not infinitely big, it's that he is not physical.
"physical materials with which to create." No. The creator CREATED physical materials. Hence the name 'creator'.
Errosion5bucks 2 years ago
OHHH! I got something to ponder! What if EVERYTHING is God? What if the universe is part of God like an atom is part of us? He is everywhere because he is everything, he is every-time because he is our relative time, and he created us because he is us. Wow, I just blew my mind! P.S. I don't believe any of what I just said but still it is interesting.
PHvlogger 2 years ago
this is the basic belief of pantheists.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
Wow this keeps getting crazier. I don't know about you but if I was part of God he wouldn't be perfect.
PHvlogger 2 years ago
... and if here was a "time" were there was no atoms there could not be any atoms today. And if they always has been existing, they were never created... and can not exist... but here we are. Woala!! Jah guides.
pigment777 2 years ago
incorrect...atoms (aka matter) can and were formed by converting energy. Atoms can also be transferred BACK into energy. You should already know this...in fact I bet you do and don't even realize it...
Let me help you make the connection...
How does an atom bomb work?
KingHeathen 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
I see several comments from you...not sure which you mean.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
"You exist outside of my house"
"But you still exist somewhere"
gothicfog 2 years ago
I think you are intelligent, but you assume that a God which could create the very concepts of time and space is not powerful enough to exist separate from his creation. God is all powerful, if he could create the entire universe, if he can be in more than one place at the same time, he is probably capable of traversing time and space. Or altering the before and after, while not disrupting the Time/Space continuum.
CorpusChristi83 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
yeah, but you saying i'm personifying God is no different then you labeling him with human attributes such as possibility of inbalance, immaturity, lack of strength/boastfulness at incredible strength, and ultimte knowledge, And no one ever said (besides the corrupt catholic church) that God wants slaves. If you read the bible, we are his CHILDREN, not his property. And it says no where about following govt, Jesus said pay unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's, but pay unto God, that which is Gods
CorpusChristi83 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
you missed my point 100% fuckwad
CorpusChristi83 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
Tsk tsk, what would god think of you? Oh right he doesn't exists.
PHvlogger 2 years ago
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TLSlayer 2 years ago
a god of the universe is a god of logic and reason,Corpus,NOT power or magic.we are creatures that are born into this world which is a part of the universe,therefore the more we use its resources respectfully,the more happy and healthy we will be.we have ALOT of evolving to do as a race.this god has zero involvement in our lives therefore he does not exist.
not biblically and not logically.
TLSlayer 2 years ago
So God exists nowhere, and at no time does he exist
funincluded 2 years ago
Heh, that's assuming God has to follow the same rules we do. As far as I'm concerned, he is believed to "make the rules" Hell, he could be outside of time and still do things before and after he does things. Also, he is believed to be omnipresent, so if being outside of time is a plane of existence or an actual place, he is there and inside of time at the same "time" hehe, *English language is funny like that*.
gluemonster300 2 years ago
I can't tell if you are mocking a view that God can be inside time and outside it ...or are you claiming this idea
funincluded 2 years ago
and your arguement that God is bound by time?! thats laughable, but its the typical arrogant bullshit that athiests come out with all the time....oh yeah, and Christians are stupid, lol come up with something origional please..
paddymourinho 2 years ago
you weren't paying close enough attention....hell, just read the TITLE and you'll see what the argument was and that it was NOT about being "bound"
Straw man=fail.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
wow, you ARE an idiot
TDarkHunt 2 years ago
I'm really not. But argueing with you, i feel would be a waste of my time. Because I dont believe that everything came from nothing, I'm an idiot...ok.
Excuse me for my ignorance, I'm only a Christian after all.
paddymourinho 2 years ago
Wait, so atheists are the arrogant ones?
Oh ok.
Here I was thinking that the people claiming to have the answers to the true nature of the universe by citing god and the bible were, thanks for setting me straight.
thenwhycallhimgod 2 years ago
Mr. Heathen, I knew bill hicks, bill hicks was a friend of mine...you sir are no bill hicks!
:)
paddymourinho 2 years ago
most theists who make this assertion use classical time rather than relitivistic time. It is possible to exist outside time and space; the laws of logic and numbers and possible worlds all "exist" only in an eternal present and without physical form, but is this real 'existence'? I'm unsure.
What can be concluded is that, IF there IS a cause, the TYPE of cause (personal) cannot be true because it causes actions (changes in time) and has emotional reactions (change in time).
unassumption 2 years ago
unassumption: Possible worlds do not exist - the possibility that they could exist exists. possible=hypothetical, the opposite of actual.
As for the existence of the laws of logic, take a look at TheoreticalBullshits's video responses to the Matt/Matt debate.
pirbird14 2 years ago
you are using a very narrow way of thinking. No theist would ever say that God exists outside the universe in nothingness. No our arguement is that there is something outside this universe and that God exists there. Why does space and time have to be the only way in which something could opperate. Lets look at string theory, string theory hypothesizes that there could be an infinite number of universes with different characteristics, these universes might opperate with something other...
delbert0504 2 years ago
than space and time. Now I'm not saying that God simply exists in another universe but I'm saying you have to consider that if the universe began with the big bang, a singularity expanding. Well basically what I'm going to get at is that if the universe had a beginning then what ever "began" it has to exist outside the universe. Its like a computer can't make itself. Everything that had a beginning has a cause that is seperate from it. Therefore there is something outside the universe.
delbert0504 2 years ago
That's the problem with human evolution and self-awareness... we have this innate NEED to say "If there's an effect, there must be a cause, therefore God made a very well equipped universe". How about infinity, a concept existing outside of space and time because it is space and time.
WillSKB88 2 years ago
You'd have to place God in an alternate dimension, another universe that exists independent of this one that predates this one and has different rules. But then you'd have to determine how that universe came to be.
zabriel13 2 years ago
Holy Crap! Bill Hicks faked his death and here he is!!! :-)
JoeyMarvelous07 2 years ago
I get that alot....I just don't see the resemblance...oh well.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
The most common reaction of your video from a Christian would be to say that the god of the bible does not have to follow logic, and can defy these principles of time and space, even if it does not make sense to mortal minds. What do you think of this counter-argument to your video? I for one find it interesting but lacks burden of proof. Of course, it is impossible to disprove a being that, by definition, is not disprovable so it is somewhat pointless to try and disprove god through science.
Japanseb 2 years ago
this is mostly accurate but at best argues for a stalemate. However, if a god does something and then does something else, then he did one before the other...how long before? As soon as you can ask that question, that god exists within "a time" even if it's not connected fully with OUR time.
KingHeathen 2 years ago
Sadly, most creationists and christians see a stalemate as a victory because of the 'you can't disprove god' thing.
Japanseb 2 years ago
Burden of proof lies with the believer. Ask a Christian to prove to you that unicorns don't exist. They can't do it, but that doesn't mean that unicorns exist.
zabriel13 2 years ago
I would like to expand on your argument if I may KingHeathen.
God could not have created time because he would have to invoke time to create it, because without time he cannot think or act.
So he cannot be the creator of all things.
tnuctnuc1 3 years ago
The second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom. From this measurement we determine the length of a meter. If you took all matter and made it smaller, a meter stick would become smaller, but it would NOT be a meter in length. It would only appear as a meter due to our point of view of it. I think this is important to note. As usual, nice presentation King.
PerfectBeach21 3 years ago
ya dude you definitely do not have a masters degree in anything let alone quantum physics
ballsmain 3 years ago
King Heathen, a further comment to my previous one. Your misrepresenting known defined theories to make your point is untenable to your cause. If athieses are to use science as their foundation for argument, it is counterproductive for them to misrepresent those theories as you did. Perhaps your argument has some grounds, but your misunderstanding of the theory of relativity makes your video completely useless to validating your point.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
I find it hilariously funny that you tell me that I'm wrong without ever saying what is right.
Sounds like you didn't understand me or that you are one of the people I was talking about.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Relativity Theory comes in 2 flavors. General and Special. Special Relativity is what I believe that you were trying to use to illustrate your concept. Special Relativity theory has 2 postulates or assumptions. 1) Laws of physics are not affected by uniform motion. 2) Light always propates in a vacuum with a specific velocity independant of the emitting body.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
This is what relativity is. The reason its called relativity is due to the "relative" speed of objects. There are many consequences to these postulates such as the relative rate that we move through time due to our speed (called time dialation) which you were trying to refer to in your video. "Time before our universe" is not something that either Einstein's General or Special Relativity can talk about due to the breakdown of the laws of physics at the big bang.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
I understand you using science as a basis of your system of belief, but it must be understood that the moment of the Big Bang and prior do not fall in the realm of Science as the equations that govern this blow up to infinity and are useless at that point. I am happy to talk to you further in this regard. My masters degree is in Physics and this is one area that I had to study extensively to do the work required.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
There are many good references to the theory of relativity on the web and I can point you to them if you are interested, but once again, it is important to know the subject for your argument to have any foundation.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
Science never has the definitive answer to anything. That is what makes it so powerful. Science's ability to change it's point of view based on new observations makes it moldable to what the world is. The universe is the ultimate judge of a scientific theory. This moldability along with the human ego is the all important combination.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
To illustrate this idea further, human ego makes it hard to get a new idea accepted by the scientific community, and it is this difficulity that makes researchers work hard to validate their point. So you see science is very moldable and humans make it more solid. It is this balance that works so well and has for thousands of years. Loose one piece and the system doesn't work.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
everything you just said lines up perfectly with what I said...though most was irrelevant to the main point.
like I said, sounds like you didn't understand what I was saying.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
The details of what physics says about the universe is the key to your argument, and therfore my previous points about Relativity are precisely relevant.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
Think....I think you need to take a step back and reevaluate the manner in which you are reading my replies to you...
I SAID: "most was irrelevant to the MAIN POINT."
I did NOT say that it wasn't relevant.
AGAIN, you aren't understanding me. You appear to have made your decision on what I'm trying to "get at" and are ignoring the ACTUAL WORDS I present.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Secondly, could you please explain how "Time before our universe is irrelevant to our universe, that's what Relativity is all about" and "1) Laws of physics are not affected by uniform motion. 2) Light always propates in a vacuum with a specific velocity independant of the emitting body. " are the same.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
These statements are not the same in any way. Perhaps you are saying that your statement is a consequence of mine, but simply saying it to be true does not make it so. To finish making your point it is necessary for you to make the connection if it is possible.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
"These statements are not the same in any way."
Didn't say they were...again, back up and understand the limitations of the space. I'm NOT interested in posting a novel of comments...Viewers prefer videos that "get to the point"...while having enough info is important, going too far in depth gets BORING to some. I try to balance that.
Watch my video "Scientists aren't marketable" to see what I mean.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Do you have that reference to the writings of Stephen Hawking which illustrates your point?
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
He wrote about it in Chapter 4 (I think) of A Brief History of Time...I'm not interested enough to get you the page number.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Summary of video.
1) Some people don't really understand relativity.
2) According to relativity if you shrink space or time in totallity you would not notice anything
3) "outside of space and time" has no meaning.
4) Theists saying that God being "outside of space and time" has negative consequences to the belief in God.
5) There was a before the big bang, time before our universe is irrelevant to our universe.
Groups (1,2) (3,4) and (5) are disconnected, show the connection.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
If (3,4) illustrates your point why include (1,2) and (5)
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
King Heathen.If you are going to use science then do it down to the final detail and with the proper method. Simply saying that "this can be explained because science says it" is invoking your belief in science without your own understanding or thought or willingness to explain it. Your argument is therefore no different than a religious one. What sets science apart is the willingness to study and understand the fine details.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
"If you are going to use science then do it down to the final detail"
Seriously, "Scientists aren't marketable"...watch it.
And do me a big favor...before giving me any more advice on how to make my videos....make one of your own.
Reply if you like...but I'm bored of the conversation as you seem to only want to argue against points that aren't being made and make assumptions of errors that don't exist and conclude positions which I don't hold....
Now who sounds like they are "religious?"
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Final comment. If anyone studies physics to the lowest levels you find out that nothing is for sure (even time and space). All theories are constructs of the human mind (even if they do work very well) and the universe exists beyond these constructs. Making any claims about what we can't directly observe (i.e. God) is pointless. Therefore anybody trying to argue for or against the existence of God using science is going beyond the limits of science. This is why the details are all important.
ThinkAsAThinker 2 years ago
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King Heathen, Please take the time to study the theory of Relativity if you are going to use it in your video. The statement: "This is relativity and our universe is not not in subject to that relativity. Time before our universe is irrelevant to our universe, that's what Relativity is all about" Is completely incorrect. A quick search on google will tell you very quickly what the theory of Relativity is.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
you apparently disagree with Stephen Hawking...write him about it.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Please give me a reference (book and page) from the writings of Stephen Hawking that illustrates your points. I would welcome the chance to read it.
ThinkAsAThinker 3 years ago
And what else, is that nearly every theist claims that their God has "always been". So if he does stuff after he does other stuff, then he's already done everything he can ever do. An infinite amount of times for that matter. Unless he doesn't do stuff after he does other stuff, so everything he does is just all at once or something.
chailizard 3 years ago
Hey King Heathan, What is you opinion on the so called athiest nightmare, Dum Dum, Dum, Dom, The bannana.
btbam77 3 years ago
See "For the last time...part 1"
KingHeathen 3 years ago
the very act of stating something or some deity exists "outside of space" is contradictory as "outside" is a measurement of position, and position is a observation of space.
daniel0B 3 years ago
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therefore is blah blah pointless theories unless someone or him are willing to argue and bring something that he can prove to me that God doesn't exist i can bring to the table the copies of the old testament and new testament in their original languages not in the King James versions or other translations i will sit there with this guy read the Word of God in their original text Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek
sertos101 3 years ago
but thats just a book. a very old book. i have all lord of the rings so il prove that mordor souron an legolas existed. cos the book says they did. i even have there version of the old testement. its calld the simmirilions. so u prove that they dont exist an il belive in god
smoke123455 3 years ago
No people who make claims provide the proof. People who make counter claims attempt to debunk the proof and present counter information. Your making the claim there is no scientific proof of god.
therackjackets 3 years ago
RJ, do you not see how you just contradicted yourself?
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Sorry i meant to say your making the claim there is a god. and then i wanted to put comma and state the is no evidence of it therefore there is nothing for an ahteist to have to debunk. which means really there is no arguement to be had unless believers can bring some thing to the table. but no im not a believe i just have bad grammer lmao
therackjackets 3 years ago
ah, that clears it up...
I'm really bad about leaving off the "n't" on some words if I start typing too fast...so I can sympathize.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
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c'mon plz this guy is a looser to begin he diffies great scientist what has this king heathan done for humanaty all he has is empty theories how can he prove his theories he has empty words worst than any religious person i would challange the poor senseless guy but he has no wisdom or proper intellegence get a life king senseless lol
sertos101 3 years ago
Oh, I think you should go ahead and "challenge" him, as you say. You look exactly like the kind of person who's able to challenge... well, anyone!
It would be nice, however, if you could perhaps reveal a bit about your specific wisdom or that so-called "proper intelligence" of yours, so that we could get a sense of what areas and subjects you would debate on.
So how about it?
Gnug215 3 years ago
How is it "empty theories"?
It has support unlike most religous claims.
nillocjames 3 years ago
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ook lets start by saying i respect the guy king heathen and his way of thinking but i dont agree for simple reasons the guy has no proof of what he is talking about, he is just expressing his way of thinking he's nor right or wrong he has no proper intelligence he reads what other people has written which aplies to me too neither him or me have actually discover or can prove what we beleive but i so we become like an empmty can that makes noise in alley with insignificant noise
sertos101 3 years ago
Sertos....what part of "Don't take my word for it; think for yourself" did you not catch?
KingHeathen 3 years ago
There is no such thing as "dimensions" as conceived by the layman. To the layman, a dimension is a place (and that error clouds and hampers the thinking of many a scientist).
Time is *NOT* a "place".
And, since you cannot distinguish one "dimension" of space from the other by any empirical measurement, there is only one "dimension".
Space is the illusion everything did not happen in the same place and time the illusion it did not all happen at the same instant.
RyuDarragh 3 years ago
No, hawke123. You are presenting two choices. What do you mean by "chance"? Methinks your definition lacks,
The "cause" was not chance, but did not have to be a "designer". Brane theory (part of superstring theory) is one possibility. The singularity pinch off from a higher level universe is another.
There are myriad possibilities, but they all share one common feature.
The laws of physics.
And that is *NOT* chance.
RyuDarragh 3 years ago
Its funny because I was reading an article about this cute female physicist that believes she has detected fifth dimensional particles, so have two other scientist in other projects. Also it is mathematically proven. If I were compressed I would be dead because the higher compresion causes matter to function differently so I would not say anything.
ckilr01 3 years ago
I have an actual point of disagreement with the video. it is my understanding that space, time, energy and matter were all the same "substance" within the singularity and that the expansion caused space/time to separate from energy/matter.
also, i got the impression from "a brief history of time" that time itself can be thought of as a literal fourth dimension along which space expands at a velocity relative to the mass/energy occupying that space, and that this is what probably causes gravity
yetidetective 3 years ago
(cont) and from this cosmological model, space/time didn't exist before the singularity and so there really was not a moment you could describe as "before the singularity."
the explanatory power of this model is that since there was not even "nothing" before the singularity the universe isn't thought of as having come from nothing.
and that's my two cents.
yetidetective 3 years ago
Why are people even arguing this? Even if something is outside the universe it needs space and time to exist. That's why the idea of a multiverse exists, or alternate dimensions. Because if there was just Nothing then Nothing Is There.
If it does not have either it does not exist. It has no before after or any dimensions. That's very explicit criteria for nothing.
sroHex 3 years ago
Big fan of your videos here - I've thought about this question before and found your take on it very enlightening. I was thinking that, since the bible says god created the earth and the heavens and all that good stuff in seven days, that would make him temporal. But then christians say he also an atemporal god so that doesn't really make sense.
AbortTheBabyJesus 3 years ago
Just how is a being that is omnipotent and immaterial bound by space and time? Its like saying the author of a novel is bound by the rules and events that take place in his book.
hawke123 3 years ago
even if we were characters in a book how would we know it? how can you claim to know that there is anything outside of the universe?
yetidetective 3 years ago
yeti, I am not trying to prove that god exists since this is not the point of this video. The point of this video is to make the conclusion that god cannot exists outside of the universe because of the laws inside of the universe. I am just trying to show that that reasoning, is indeed, false. I am not claiming I know anything outside of the universe (that's a different discussion all together), what I am saying is that it is possible for something to exists outside of space and time.
solid444 3 years ago
"what I am saying is that it is possible for something to exists outside of space and time. "
on what grounds can you make that statement?
in other words, what in this universe makes you believe that there is something outside of the universe?
yetidetective 3 years ago
It seems that our problem revolves around the question "can a creator be constrained by a dimension of his creation". You at least agree with me that something outside the universe is not subject to the rules inside the universe. However, you say that god must be limited by time if he created time. At the very fundamental level you are still basing this conclusion on the fact that nothing can exists outside of space and time.
solid444 3 years ago
also, to address you watchmaker metaphor: from the perspective of the gears the watchmaker's dance was inconsequential. there is no more reason for the gears to believe that the watchmaker did a dance than for them to believe he momentarily turned into a dragon and flew around the world before fixing the watch. And intellectual honesty demands that they don't pretend to know things they have no way of knowing, even if those things happen to be true.
yetidetective 3 years ago
Lastly, this..
"what I am saying is that it is possible for something to exists outside of space and time. "
and this...
"what in this universe makes you believe that there is something outside of the universe? "
Are not the same thing. You still want me to try to prove there is a god when that is not the subject at hand. The subject at hand is to show that the reasoning of this video is in fact right/wrong and that it is possible/impossible for god to exists outside of space and time.
solid444 3 years ago
i still don't see any reason to believe that anything exists outside of space/time. if there is an existence outside of space/time then there is no way for us to have any knowledge of it. also, i cannot imagine a way for an event to occur outside of space/time.
i concede that because i cannot imagine something doesn't make it impossible, and i'm not saying that it's impossible for there to be something beyond space/time. i'm just saying there's no reason to think anything is.
yetidetective 3 years ago
"i concede that because i cannot imagine something doesn't make it impossible, and i'm not saying that it's impossible for there to be something beyond space/time."
Then we agree. And that was the point of this video, to prove that it is impossible for something to be beyond space/time. My point was that that was not the case. The question of whether there is a reason to think of anything outside or not is a different question all together.
I'm out, thnx for a good debate.
solid444 3 years ago
We know that the universe has a beginning via the Big Bang. In this event time, space, matter, and energy were created. The question is, what caused the Big Bang? The cause must be timeless, spaceless, incredibly powerful, it must be highly intelligent because of the order and fine tuning of the universe, and it must be personal otherwise it could not choose to create anything.
hawke123 3 years ago
the universe has a beginning from the perspective of the inside of the universe. if you could go outside of the universe, you would not be subject to time because time is one of the aspects of the universe. from there the universe would look like one solid 4 dimensional object. this does not need a beginning anymore than a statue has a beginning.
also, a timeless god could not cause events. no time = no events = no creation
yetidetective 3 years ago