Why would losing her Virginity AFTER Jesus' birth be a mortal sin? She had a husband. So if it was within the context of marriage then she wouldn't have sinned.
She has said it since 1965, and if I recall correctly. And post-1965 is also part of the Roman Catholic Church. And it allows Orthodox to take Catholic communion if they are in need, because it considers Orthodox holy orders as valid. Does it not?
I understand that. You can't compromise the faith on essential grounds. But wouldn't you agree that dissent on the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption is quite small compared to, say, adhering to Nestorianism or predestination?
Yes but the Catholic Church also considers Orthodoxy as the "second lung" of the Christian Church and even allows them to partake in Catholic Communion, despite the rejection of the specific issues I raised. What is your opinion on that?
But should it be dogmatized? Should it matter if a Catholic believes in the Immaculate Conception or the Perpetual Virginity so long as he believes that she was blessed and virgin with Jesus' conception? Does it matter if a Catholic does not believe that purgatory is inherently painful if he believes that there is a 'temporary state' before heaven where some purification exists and where prayers can assist? Or not believe in purgatory at all?
This makes sense, but how do you differentiate between what is proper Tradition and what is a personal opinion with which the Church does not agree? Didn't Augustine, for instance, essentially preach predestination (which I reject)? Why is that not a Tradition of the Church? Isn't he a Doctor of the Church?
This isn't an attack on Catholicism but simply a question:
How do you determine if something is appropriately a tradition without using the Bible as a guide? What is the standard that says 'this is Tradition, but this is not'?
Also, if Tradition is one and unchangeable, then why do the Orthodox have a different one from you since you were born as one Church? For instance why do you accept Purgatory and the Orthodox don't?
The bible also says scripture is of no private interpretation. Thus you need the church to interperet it for us because it is the pillar of TRUTH.
However i dont agree with the catholic dogma added since the split from orthodox. I dont think the emaculate conception tradition was waiting to be canonized in the 1950's.
If they speak not according to the law and to the testimony then there is not light in them.
So how do you know that the entire law and testimony is found in the Bible?
If this where the case then the early Christians, who where without a Bible for around the first 300 years after the resurrection of Christ, would have no guide line as to what the law is and how to live their lives.
Well, what about the other 30,000 or 40,000 protestant denominations, who hold to your same reasoning, but come up with totally different ideas when it comes to the meaning of Scripture?
The Bible teaches that the greatest majority of "believers" are deceived, and that many will come to Him in the last day laying all their "works" before Him as though they are saved by them. Knowing God and having faith in His promises is the test, not the many wonderful works we have done in his name. I care not what 30 or 40 thoushand churches believe. I care only what the Bible says and worship God accordiungly.
The only problem you have is that you are using the same method of interpreting the Scriptures as those other Protestants, but you wouldn't be able to agree with them on certain issues. This shows that your method is wrong because it is not consistent.
How did the early Christians for the first 400 years after the Resurrection know how to determine the truth on all matters, as they did not have a Bible until the Catholic Church canonized it?
To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant
@Evangelander Sola Scriptura was dated extremely long after the establishment of Christianity on the basis of the whims of a fallible individual; a single man. It is so darn enticing to tell new "believers" that all they have to do is read the bible and believe and they are saved at so and so day at so and so hour at so and so second. Christianity is a journey (belief+work). Due to the extreme risk of Christianity's dilution through generations, tradition from the disciples has to carry on.
It's not about Religion, it's about Relationship. If your traditions give you a close relationship with Christ, have at it, but don't tell others that they don't love him if they don't keep up with these man made rutuals of yours. Jesus himself was Baptized at 30 and told his disciples to baptize believers (ones who understand the concept). Your doctrine disobeys that and is therefore, wrong. That's one issue.I could go on all day.
Are you somehow calling the Sacraments that Christ instituted mere rituals? I can agree with that they can lead us away from Christ if we let them become mere rituals. However, a faithful observance of the teachings of the Church in the matters of the Sacraments will lead to a more full and loving relationship with Jesus Christ. After the Holy Eucharist is Jesus Himself, how can you get any closer to Jesus then to receive Him as He commanded.
This is one of your off-the-wall type comments that have really no bearing on the issue at hand. I never said that a Catholic that doesn't follow the teachings of Church will simply get a free pass. And I never said anyone is in or is going to Hell. You need to actually start listening to what I'am telling you.
Yes,in fact I've watched the clip about three times now trying to see where you're coming from.Now, please take a minute to see where I'm coming from. Almost every Catholic I know is faithful in church,that's all.They allow their teens to have drunken brawls.We were at a wedding once and the Priest thankedGod for the KEG! TWICE!Okay, now take that in light of scripture.Jesus said drunkeness was bad, remember?This is my point. If your "sacraments" don't change the way you live, what's the point?
I will not deny the fact that many Catholics do not live their faith. However, it is also true that many do. I like to say that those who do not live their faith are not really a part of that faith, or that they have fallen away.
So, now that you have established your point that drunkenness is bad (j/k), what does that have to do with your belief in Sola Scrptura?
As a practicing Catholic, the Sacraments have changed the way I live and the way I look at life.
I can use my bible to refute every one of those statements. In fact I went and grabbed it to do just that. Being a student of the bible, I could compile all the necessary scripture in about five minutes. But, my deep faith in a loving father causes me to love you and I just don't want to argue anymore. So lets agree to disagree except on the following, would you agree that obedience to Christ is a result of faith and not visa versa?
But that's just my point, the purpose of the church isn't to provide you with a relationship with Christ, only enrich it. Faith is personal, between you and him. I can go to God right now and say I'm sorry for thinking you are kinda mean and he'll forgive me, no mediator necessary. And I do recieve communion in rememberence of him as he commanded. I'm starting to think our positions are closer than we think. That being said, I'll stick with my bible. It's God's breath, wonderfully complete.
First, I will apologize if I come across mean. I am not trying to degrade you or your beliefs. I'm trying to bring you the authentic Christianity that Christ Himself established.
The Church is not here merely to enrich our faith, but to provided us with the means to know what to have faith in. What is faith? Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief.
This being said, you cannot really have faith because you do not know what God really has said and revealed. Why? Because, as I have stated before, someone who doesn't have a solid authority, such as the Church, cannot know the full meaning of Scripture and interpret it properly without error. The fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations who hold to Sola Scriptura proves this fact.
You also say that you can go right to Christ for forgiveness of sins, however Christ never said this, rather He instituted the Sacrament of Penance. Our position is very close, however yours is lacking. You say that you receive communion, unless this is the Holy Eucharist than you are not fulfilling Christ's command. But these points are really of no relevance because you cannot rightly discern what is God's Word. Why? Because you adhere to Sola Scriptura.
I have studied the Catholic Doctrines for 30 years and the more I study them, the more realize they are not from God as truth, but from man as tradition. I am instructed, in Scripture, to obey God rather than man. The Pope is but a man. A man who claims to be God and that, in itself, is blasphemy.
If you've studied Catholic Doctrine for more than 30 years and you don't even know the basics of the Catholic faith, then I must say you are either blind or just invincibly ignorant.
However, you probably haven't studied true Catholic Doctrine for even 1 year, or for that matter, 10 minutes.
Part of the tradition of the Catholic church used to be to burn people at the stake! My pastor has reminded us many times that the church became imperfect the day people showed up! So what to do? Is the Bible the word of God? If so then anything that contradicts it can automatically be labeled "not of God". I'm fine with many traditions of Christianity. After each of my family made the very personal decision to follow Christ we were baptized in obedience to him. As he instructed.
The "Tradition" of the Church has never burned anyone at the stake. You obviously do not know what Sacred Tradition is. I think you should actually watch the video and read the links.
Foolish men who weren't following the laws or Traditions of the Catholic faith burned people at the stake.
You seem to have forgotten the many Catholics who where imprisoned, tortured, and killed for their Catholic faith by Protestants in England. Saint Thomas Moore is a prime example.
So what is it,specifically,that I'm not doing that you think I should be?Too many rituals distract from the purpose,a relationship with Christ.You can't tell me that people who were sprinkled as babies,live sinful lives, going to confession once in a while are golden and my Baptist grandma who opened her heart & home to any stranger in need, loved Christ with all her being,whose bible was so worn that it was falling apart is in hell now because of your traditions?Is that what you're telling me?
I will tell you what you are doing wrong first then I will tell you what you should be doing.
First, you say the Bible is the sole authority or at least I have gathered this by your comments. This is just plain wrong. The Bible never says that the Scriptures are the sole authority in which we discern how to live and act according to the ways of God.
In actuality, what you are doing, by adhering to Sola Scriptura, is creating your own interpretation of meaning of the Word of God and living by your own religious standards. You are a religious relativist with no solid foundation in faith.
You cannot explain to me the reason why there are over 30,000 Protestant denominations, each one following your own reasoning, who cannot agree on matters of faith or morals. They all come up with different conclusions when it comes to the meaning of the Scriptures.
You should listen to the teachings of Christ when He instituted a visible Church giving her the authority to discern the ways of God through the guidance of the Holy Spirit who has promised to keep her from error in matters of faith and morals.
@spitzer72
But isn't the Church supposed to be infallible?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@Reazzurro90 We are, how else could we make the infallible bible, and cut out the fallible books some wanted to include?
kevinjjfr 2 months ago
@spitzer72
Having sex within the context of marriage is still sinful?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
Ah I see. You're a sedevancantist. That's fair.
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
Why would losing her Virginity AFTER Jesus' birth be a mortal sin? She had a husband. So if it was within the context of marriage then she wouldn't have sinned.
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
She has said it since 1965, and if I recall correctly. And post-1965 is also part of the Roman Catholic Church. And it allows Orthodox to take Catholic communion if they are in need, because it considers Orthodox holy orders as valid. Does it not?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
I understand that. You can't compromise the faith on essential grounds. But wouldn't you agree that dissent on the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption is quite small compared to, say, adhering to Nestorianism or predestination?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
Yes but the Catholic Church also considers Orthodoxy as the "second lung" of the Christian Church and even allows them to partake in Catholic Communion, despite the rejection of the specific issues I raised. What is your opinion on that?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
But should it be dogmatized? Should it matter if a Catholic believes in the Immaculate Conception or the Perpetual Virginity so long as he believes that she was blessed and virgin with Jesus' conception? Does it matter if a Catholic does not believe that purgatory is inherently painful if he believes that there is a 'temporary state' before heaven where some purification exists and where prayers can assist? Or not believe in purgatory at all?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
@spitzer72
This makes sense, but how do you differentiate between what is proper Tradition and what is a personal opinion with which the Church does not agree? Didn't Augustine, for instance, essentially preach predestination (which I reject)? Why is that not a Tradition of the Church? Isn't he a Doctor of the Church?
Reazzurro90 8 months ago
This isn't an attack on Catholicism but simply a question:
How do you determine if something is appropriately a tradition without using the Bible as a guide? What is the standard that says 'this is Tradition, but this is not'?
Also, if Tradition is one and unchangeable, then why do the Orthodox have a different one from you since you were born as one Church? For instance why do you accept Purgatory and the Orthodox don't?
Reazzurro90 9 months ago
Nice Job!!!
The bible also says scripture is of no private interpretation. Thus you need the church to interperet it for us because it is the pillar of TRUTH.
However i dont agree with the catholic dogma added since the split from orthodox. I dont think the emaculate conception tradition was waiting to be canonized in the 1950's.
It would be great to unite again though.
maghdhd 2 years ago
You say that Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible. I disagree fully.
Isaiah 8:20
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
Evangelander 2 years ago
If they speak not according to the law and to the testimony then there is not light in them.
So how do you know that the entire law and testimony is found in the Bible?
If this where the case then the early Christians, who where without a Bible for around the first 300 years after the resurrection of Christ, would have no guide line as to what the law is and how to live their lives.
UnusFides 2 years ago
They were taught by theHoly Spirit, just as Christ Promised they would be.
It is the Holy Spirit that was to guide men into ALL truth.
Evangelander 2 years ago
Well, what about the other 30,000 or 40,000 protestant denominations, who hold to your same reasoning, but come up with totally different ideas when it comes to the meaning of Scripture?
UnusFides 2 years ago
The Bible teaches that the greatest majority of "believers" are deceived, and that many will come to Him in the last day laying all their "works" before Him as though they are saved by them. Knowing God and having faith in His promises is the test, not the many wonderful works we have done in his name. I care not what 30 or 40 thoushand churches believe. I care only what the Bible says and worship God accordiungly.
Evangelander 2 years ago
The only problem you have is that you are using the same method of interpreting the Scriptures as those other Protestants, but you wouldn't be able to agree with them on certain issues. This shows that your method is wrong because it is not consistent.
How did the early Christians for the first 400 years after the Resurrection know how to determine the truth on all matters, as they did not have a Bible until the Catholic Church canonized it?
To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant
UnusFides 2 years ago
@Evangelander Sola Scriptura was dated extremely long after the establishment of Christianity on the basis of the whims of a fallible individual; a single man. It is so darn enticing to tell new "believers" that all they have to do is read the bible and believe and they are saved at so and so day at so and so hour at so and so second. Christianity is a journey (belief+work). Due to the extreme risk of Christianity's dilution through generations, tradition from the disciples has to carry on.
ZeraYaqob 1 year ago
It's not about Religion, it's about Relationship. If your traditions give you a close relationship with Christ, have at it, but don't tell others that they don't love him if they don't keep up with these man made rutuals of yours. Jesus himself was Baptized at 30 and told his disciples to baptize believers (ones who understand the concept). Your doctrine disobeys that and is therefore, wrong. That's one issue.I could go on all day.
cntrybrby 3 years ago
Are you somehow calling the Sacraments that Christ instituted mere rituals? I can agree with that they can lead us away from Christ if we let them become mere rituals. However, a faithful observance of the teachings of the Church in the matters of the Sacraments will lead to a more full and loving relationship with Jesus Christ. After the Holy Eucharist is Jesus Himself, how can you get any closer to Jesus then to receive Him as He commanded.
UnusFides 3 years ago
This is one of your off-the-wall type comments that have really no bearing on the issue at hand. I never said that a Catholic that doesn't follow the teachings of Church will simply get a free pass. And I never said anyone is in or is going to Hell. You need to actually start listening to what I'am telling you.
UnusFides 3 years ago
You say, "your traditions", My traditions?! These are not my traditions, they are the Sacred teachings of the Church given to her by Christ Himself.
I can tell, by your comments, that you haven't really read the links in the description nor paid full attention to the video.
UnusFides 3 years ago
Yes,in fact I've watched the clip about three times now trying to see where you're coming from.Now, please take a minute to see where I'm coming from. Almost every Catholic I know is faithful in church,that's all.They allow their teens to have drunken brawls.We were at a wedding once and the Priest thankedGod for the KEG! TWICE!Okay, now take that in light of scripture.Jesus said drunkeness was bad, remember?This is my point. If your "sacraments" don't change the way you live, what's the point?
cntrybrby 3 years ago
Well, I'm glad to hear that you have watched the clip, but you seemed to forgotten the links in the description?
UnusFides 3 years ago
I will not deny the fact that many Catholics do not live their faith. However, it is also true that many do. I like to say that those who do not live their faith are not really a part of that faith, or that they have fallen away.
So, now that you have established your point that drunkenness is bad (j/k), what does that have to do with your belief in Sola Scrptura?
As a practicing Catholic, the Sacraments have changed the way I live and the way I look at life.
UnusFides 3 years ago
I can use my bible to refute every one of those statements. In fact I went and grabbed it to do just that. Being a student of the bible, I could compile all the necessary scripture in about five minutes. But, my deep faith in a loving father causes me to love you and I just don't want to argue anymore. So lets agree to disagree except on the following, would you agree that obedience to Christ is a result of faith and not visa versa?
cntrybrby 3 years ago
Your not hearing me. How can you be certain that what you come up with in your "refutation using Scripture" is true?
UnusFides 3 years ago
But that's just my point, the purpose of the church isn't to provide you with a relationship with Christ, only enrich it. Faith is personal, between you and him. I can go to God right now and say I'm sorry for thinking you are kinda mean and he'll forgive me, no mediator necessary. And I do recieve communion in rememberence of him as he commanded. I'm starting to think our positions are closer than we think. That being said, I'll stick with my bible. It's God's breath, wonderfully complete.
cntrybrby 3 years ago
First, I will apologize if I come across mean. I am not trying to degrade you or your beliefs. I'm trying to bring you the authentic Christianity that Christ Himself established.
UnusFides 3 years ago
The Church is not here merely to enrich our faith, but to provided us with the means to know what to have faith in. What is faith? Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief.
UnusFides 3 years ago
This being said, you cannot really have faith because you do not know what God really has said and revealed. Why? Because, as I have stated before, someone who doesn't have a solid authority, such as the Church, cannot know the full meaning of Scripture and interpret it properly without error. The fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations who hold to Sola Scriptura proves this fact.
UnusFides 3 years ago
You also say that you can go right to Christ for forgiveness of sins, however Christ never said this, rather He instituted the Sacrament of Penance. Our position is very close, however yours is lacking. You say that you receive communion, unless this is the Holy Eucharist than you are not fulfilling Christ's command. But these points are really of no relevance because you cannot rightly discern what is God's Word. Why? Because you adhere to Sola Scriptura.
UnusFides 3 years ago
Please give me the scripture reference for the "Sacrament of Penance" and the one that tells me my communion is not the "Holy Eucharist."
cntrybrby 3 years ago
1Timothy 2:5
"...there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..."
God only can forgive sins and Jesus is God, to believe and/or pratice otherwise is blasphemy.
Evangelander 2 years ago
Thank you for proclaiming a teaching of the Church!
UnusFides 2 years ago
This is NOT what is proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church as per the Council of Trent and onward to today.
If so, then why is it that you MUST see a priest to have your sins forgiven?
Evangelander 2 years ago
If you ever read a bit of Catholic Doctrine concerning the Sacrament of Confession then you would know why.
UnusFides 2 years ago
I have studied the Catholic Doctrines for 30 years and the more I study them, the more realize they are not from God as truth, but from man as tradition. I am instructed, in Scripture, to obey God rather than man. The Pope is but a man. A man who claims to be God and that, in itself, is blasphemy.
Evangelander 2 years ago
If you've studied Catholic Doctrine for more than 30 years and you don't even know the basics of the Catholic faith, then I must say you are either blind or just invincibly ignorant.
However, you probably haven't studied true Catholic Doctrine for even 1 year, or for that matter, 10 minutes.
UnusFides 2 years ago
This is NOT what is proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church as per the Council of Trent and onward to today.
Evangelander 2 years ago
Comment removed
Evangelander 2 years ago
Part of the tradition of the Catholic church used to be to burn people at the stake! My pastor has reminded us many times that the church became imperfect the day people showed up! So what to do? Is the Bible the word of God? If so then anything that contradicts it can automatically be labeled "not of God". I'm fine with many traditions of Christianity. After each of my family made the very personal decision to follow Christ we were baptized in obedience to him. As he instructed.
cntrybrby 3 years ago
The "Tradition" of the Church has never burned anyone at the stake. You obviously do not know what Sacred Tradition is. I think you should actually watch the video and read the links.
Foolish men who weren't following the laws or Traditions of the Catholic faith burned people at the stake.
You seem to have forgotten the many Catholics who where imprisoned, tortured, and killed for their Catholic faith by Protestants in England. Saint Thomas Moore is a prime example.
UnusFides 3 years ago
So what is it,specifically,that I'm not doing that you think I should be?Too many rituals distract from the purpose,a relationship with Christ.You can't tell me that people who were sprinkled as babies,live sinful lives, going to confession once in a while are golden and my Baptist grandma who opened her heart & home to any stranger in need, loved Christ with all her being,whose bible was so worn that it was falling apart is in hell now because of your traditions?Is that what you're telling me?
cntrybrby 3 years ago
I will tell you what you are doing wrong first then I will tell you what you should be doing.
First, you say the Bible is the sole authority or at least I have gathered this by your comments. This is just plain wrong. The Bible never says that the Scriptures are the sole authority in which we discern how to live and act according to the ways of God.
UnusFides 3 years ago
In actuality, what you are doing, by adhering to Sola Scriptura, is creating your own interpretation of meaning of the Word of God and living by your own religious standards. You are a religious relativist with no solid foundation in faith.
UnusFides 3 years ago
You cannot explain to me the reason why there are over 30,000 Protestant denominations, each one following your own reasoning, who cannot agree on matters of faith or morals. They all come up with different conclusions when it comes to the meaning of the Scriptures.
UnusFides 3 years ago
You should listen to the teachings of Christ when He instituted a visible Church giving her the authority to discern the ways of God through the guidance of the Holy Spirit who has promised to keep her from error in matters of faith and morals.
UnusFides 3 years ago
God is Sola Scriptura
DerektheDuctTape 3 years ago
God is a book? Eh?
GloriousTrinity 3 years ago