Wealth for the Common Good: Taxing High-Income America

[MaudsPas]

I don't understand how so many Christians can vote Republican. I have always voted democrat because they don't start wars or redistribute wealth to the super rich.

[greenhell666]

"taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society"

well spoken, all that "taxation is theft" meme is nonsense

[XionXXXX]

The economic rationale is lower taxes and more job cuts increases GDP growth, outsourcing jobs overseas increases economic growth, putting people in prisons reduces the unemployment rate, Slavery is Good, Greed is Good.

That is economics in a nutshell.

[70road]

In the last 25 years the top 1% income has increased 174% the rest of us have been stagnate or droped. Greed has destroyed this country. You can defend this but the truth is you will never be one of the 1% unless you are part of the lucky sperm club. One more point 19% of Americans think they are in the 1% club.

[caltrop69]

Why don't they just voluntarily pay more in taxes, if they like government so much?

[artformeandyou]

FAIR TAX (DOT) ORG

The only tax is a fair tax!!!

[truthadvocate]

This is a waste of online space. Theft is theft, and no spinning or petitions will ever change that. The government is nothing more than a criminal enterprise. It's a cancer that needs to be cut out, so people can be free. So people can take care of people directly. So corruption does not run wild as it does today. I'm sick of people pretending to be righteous as they violate the property rights of innocent people. This man is in complete denial of the truth & you're helping to spread his lies.

[hijinxcavalry]

Taxation is a tool for ensuring that we live in a free and fair society. If we do not have sufficient money to stop crime, protect our borders, and educate or children, we will not be able to preserve property rights.

Living in American society, you have by default consented to being taxed by our government. If you wish to avoid such considerations, you are free to leave.

The American government is a means for protecting our rights, it is not a criminal enterprise.

[truthadvocate]

I used to think like you. But how can taxation ensure freedom & fairness, when taxation is coercive & unequal. The majority forces a minority to pay a much higher percentage of their property. That's unfair. If you don't pay, armed agents will come to your home to kidnap you. If you resist, you & members of your family will likely die. What's fair & free about that?

American government is not criminal according to what? The rules set by the American government?

[truthadvocate]

In order for a contract to be voluntary, you must have the mental capacity to consent. Yet babies are bound by U.S. contracts. Force must not be initiated against you. It is. There must be free competition, yet no group is free to compete on a level playing field with government. For instance If you create a medium of exchange backed by a precious metal to compete with the U.S. dollar armed agents will raid your business, steal all your assets & the assets of your customers & throw you in jail.

[truthadvocate]

Do you really think it's reasonable to force someone to move thousands of miles away just to switch service providers? Especially when those service providers are also coercive monopolies over a vast geographic region. Do phone companies force you to do this?

[MirageScience]

@hijinxcavalry Taxation is theft good sir, I couldn't care less how they spend the money to persuade people in to supporting them and their thievery. You also propose what is called social contract theory. If by your logic it is unfair to be born into a rich family, because as you say "taxation is a tool for ensuring fairness", then why is it fair for someone to take money from me just because I was born on a certain land mass. and give me debt at the age of 18? I did not choose to be born here.

[noldarandur]

@MirageScience

But you do have the choice and means to leave, which is one more option than many poor folks have. W/o society theft or riches do not exist.

[MirageScience]

@noldarandur we aren't talking about eliminating society, and no i don't have the "option" to opt out of the state, states are everywhere.

[noldarandur]

@MirageScience

You have the option to switch states.

[MirageScience]

@noldarandur that is not what i'm talking about.... England is 1 state, France 1 state, U.S.A. is 1 state. Stop be fucking retarded.

[xrm1996]

I hired more employees with the Bush tax cuts... I created jobs. I guess the people I should let go when they remove even more of my incentives to invest in my company should be the people that had the Obama calendars on their desks. I mean... clearly they support reducing my incentive to create jobs and invest in the company. Thank you for making this clear for me.

[hijinxcavalry]

The Bush tax cuts weren't effective because they were not permanent (this is a basic concept of intermediate macro econ theory). Unless tax cuts are permanent, they don't actually change behavior.

What the US really needs to do is eliminate deficits and pay down a lot of the debt. Until that happens, tax cuts will be ineffective because people are smart enough to figure out that taxes will go back up to pay down debt and deficit.

Both Republicans and Democrats are responsible for the debt.

[xrm1996]

Temporary is a good start if that's what you have to do to get it through. Those cuts funded several jobs for several years at my company. You can always hope the give-away artists and the ignorant fools who voted for them will get their heads out of their asses. Too bad.. they were nice guys. As for Rep vs Dem, one side supports the redistribution of wealth more than another. It's not in any business owners best interest to ignore that. First out are those who support Utopia on my nickel.

[hijinxcavalry]

Temporary tax cuts are ineffective according to macroeconomic theory. Rational actors won't expend the money they get from tax cuts. Companies may hire temporary employees, but the majority of co's will brace for future taxation.

The Pubs engage in deficit spending. Invading Iraq was (1) a step towards building a world Utopia and (2) a big waste of my tax dollars; I don't disagree with you as to Dems, but it is silly to suppose the Pubs didn't spend just as much money on Utopian delusions.

[xrm1996]

Theory vs reality. I spent a decade as a prof in an analytical area & "got" theory. I've run a comp for 25 years - I "get" reality. What a turn-on-a-dime businessman will do is respond to current opportunity to grow his biz. The MBA's I left behind at large corps would probably do what theory tells them to. They suck at capturing opportunity. And they aren't where most innovation and new job growth is either. I'm getting ass-f'cked by the US. I'm losing interest in providing jobs at this point.

[xrm1996]

BTW.. pls don't see this as an endorsement for the pubs. I've been invited to plenty of business breakfasts with Bush. Screw them too, but not as much as the "free shit"/wealth dist crowd. Spending on war pays professionals. I'm good with that. Spending on raggies is a waste of money. Just makes them lazier. Not everyone gets to have a fabulous life... especially for free.

[hijinxcavalry]

I respect that view; I still think the government spending on neither is the best alternative, but if I was forced to choose I would pick paying people for work.

[liber8me]

"Temporary tax cuts are ineffective according to macroeconomic theory" you say that like that gives you some form of authority. its simple logic that tax cuts are good for the economy - people have more money = spend more, people spending more stimulates the economy, stimulation of the economy means there is more money and therefore to meet the demand bosses hire more people to cope. simple.

[hijinxcavalry]

Economics is beyond simple logic.

When a temporary tax cut occurs, or people know that taxes are going to increase because the government can't go on without a hike, they don't spend more money in the long term. In the short term, they may spend more, but they adjust their spending down to compensate for higher future taxes. Without a permanent tax cut, behavior doesn't change.

I've studied this at great length, and I know I'm right. Your rationale is that of a college freshman.

[liber8me]

no, you've taken an ideological view about it and have convinced yourself you're correct.

i know from experience in my own country when the government managed the economy well and we had a surplus the government was giving tax cuts and as a result people WERE SPENDING more, more jobs were being created etc etc.

"In the short term, they may spend more" yes, and that helps stimulate the economy, that means more people will be hired and the government makes more money

[hijinxcavalry]

No liber, I've studied economics at a top university and am repeating the view accepted by top economists like Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, and Paul Volcker.

Tax cuts only work when they are permanent, period. You're stating the Keynesian view, which is elementary economics (and rather outdated now). People are indeed tricked when there's a temporary tax cut, or the gov't prints more money, or the gov't sends people cash, and they spend a little more. The economic stimulus is trivial.

[MysteryManoLove]

Another "Robin Hood" type of guy huh? Sorry I completely disagree with taxing the wealthy who already bring in 90% of ALL taxes in the United States as corporations bring in a tremendous amount of wealth over a middle class citizen anyday. If they want to make an extra donation to the IRS fine, don't make it mandatory.

[Avarice176]

Ugh, I am SO sick of this "For the common good" BULLSHIT.

[Smartassawhip]

We need to step up our game and get more involved. I have a wide variety of petitions and other resources in the comment section of my profile that will help you get started. Anyone who is still confused about health care reform may also find the information there helpful as I have a lot of information for you as well. Thanks

[dlucas90]

If the highest income earners pay the most in taxes, it stands to reason that the government will continue to be motivated to have as large of a gap in wealth as possible. This is because if the majority of the "pie" goes to the wealthy, the government then gets a bigger "slice" of the total pie.

In my opinion, this tax discussion is a backdoor distraction from discussing the real issue, which is the difference in pay. "Winners" take all, and government likes it that way.

[minzeme]

I think he's lying. My relatives are tightwad millionaires who loathe paying taxes. The last thing they'd do is offer to pay more. This wreaks of propaganda.

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

"Tax fairness" sounds ridiculous and contradictory to me, kind of like "jewish antisemite" or "military intelligence".

How do these people arrive at what particular varieties of theft and murder are "fair", anyhow? By whose standards may such questions be judged? And what of justice, i.e. just restitution for damage done to one's person or property?

I think everyone would be better off if these people put down the guns, and worked out their unresolved childhood issues. O, perchance to dream...

[LibertyInOurTime]

Socialist stooge. Involuntary taxation is government theft whether against individuals or corporations.

[hoomelemele1]

This is some scarey shit

[chgosatrap]

Beautiful message. This is someone with a heart, and a sense of responsibility.

You see, if a poor person gets food stamps (or some other type of help), people jump up and scream about "Entitlement!" Here, the privileged are saying that they want to pay for their entitlements, privileges, etc.

[migkillertwo]

The audience applauding for the preservation of the estate tax was extremely disturbing to me. The estate tax is extremely counter-productive because rich folks spend millions of dollars just to dodge the estate tax. This is absurd. There is nothing of real value to be gained from avoiding taxation. This is dirving investment abroad.

Oh, and try not to forget, taxation is theft.

You're clapping for theft that is enforced by murder.

[jvittetoe]

jesus christ! why is fora spewing this complete ignorant nonsense? all we need is more laws and taxes then everything will be okay, okay? Yea, lets take more wealth from those who invest and provide capital for businesses, that way we can ALL BE POORER.

[thunderpants10]

I don't understand, if they eliminate all the loopholes and havens then where will the politicians hide all the wealth they embezzle?

I don't see how they will go for this.

[davejoe75]

Why would we want to give more to our govt?

It's not as they deserve more of our money to spend on their ridiculous goals. Plus, we have no way of determining if their project goals are being met.

[Scoforever]

Of course its not fair that the top 1% pay more than 30% of the tax burden while the bottom 50% pay less than 3%. Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilised society. The question is have we gone too far and I believe that we have gone extremely too far.

[Aaberg123]

That says more a about the gap in wealth than unfairness in the taxation system.

[Scoforever]

watch?v=jZhQvrkHs4g

The rich poor gap does NOT matter.

[Aaberg123]

I know of Novak, and his philosophy and morals are at best questionable.

[Scoforever]

It doesn't matter who puts forward the argument. What matters is the argument itself.

[Aaberg123]

I know, and that is what I indifferently addressed: His philosophy (the argument) and his morals (the ethical component of his philosophy).

His advice to poor people: Use child labour.

When I saw the video the first time, even before I had read the infobox, I knew he was a catholic... Funny how he fits the stereotype. Yeah, there's your ad hom.

[Scoforever]

Watch this then.

watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw

[Aaberg123]

I think you've misunderstood my point.

You pointed out the "unfairness" of the top 1% paying 30 of all taxes, with the bottom 50% percent paying 3%. I don't know how you can even apply the concept of "fair" to this observation.

If you'd distribute taxation so that each percentile each paid an equal share, we'd have people paying more than they'd earn.

So my argument wasn't regarding the justification of a wealth gap, but your seemingly lacking understanding of the consequences of your comment.

[Forkroute]

...Yeah when 1% own 99% of wealth (and make more and more) that makes real sense of it all.

So they own everything and they can buy anything, I'm an human being god damn it, I have value.

The bottom well-fare raises while the rich are generations ahead in the same aspect.

He would rather see children working in a shop then at school, so the rich can think while the poor (growing larger in numbers) brain root, too stupid to choose.

[Scoforever]

I would rather that the rich were richer and the wealth gap was bigger so long as the poor were better off. And the top 1% do not have 99% of the wealth. That is just something that you made up. Even if it was true it wouldn't matter because it would mean a higher standard of living for the poor.

[Forkroute]

No.

It just means some expensive medicine and services are only available to the rich which become richer,

the average standard should be available for the average person, notthe lowest one of the time.

[Scoforever]

Why would it mean that?  When the rich get richer they hire more people at higher wages.

[JustificationNation]

Coming from the other end of the spectrum, today I'm asked to pay taxes I really can't afford at this moment, so I can't see myself if I were a rich person complaining that my taxes are going back to the amount they were years ago.

[Justusman72]

Is Charlie Rangel watching this?

[hozehd]

the income tax is theft

[Forkroute]

I don't understand why people dislike this idea so extremely.

It's not stealing, call it by it's name to maintain a government and its services everyone pay tax according to there income, in other words there capability or resources available to them.

We our all a part of one society

[ZamatoElite]

The Government maintains itself by theft. Taxation IS theft.

[Forkroute]

It's not, it's a basic rule in state politics.

It's sharing you wealth for services that the government gives you and your society around - you like security.

Government power of the people - for the people.

Rich are people too, and if we are searching for equality (of chances) we must restrain freedom (via taxes) and vice versa if freedom so equality drops here.

What do you think is the chance that a poor child will get proper education?

That is equality of chance.

[Avarice176]

They take tax money through coercion and force. So taxation = theft.

[Plutonwolf]

Some people are sociopathically cheap. They try to dress their miserliness in florid verbosity drawing on subjects as diverse as the Constitution, Ayn Rands sad rants and the spewings of Talk Radio nabobs. But when you boil of the bull shit, it becomes clear that they are immature whiners who never wanted to share anything in their miserable lives with anyone.

[Mastikator]

"they are immature whiners who never wanted to share anything in their miserable lives with anyone."

That's just slanderous and rude. I always share and I always give to homeless people and I always help those who ask (if I can).

But I am still against taxes.

Don't be so holier than thou. Very uncool

[Plutonwolf]

Then why not pay the reasonable levels of taxes we are asked to pay? As opposed to most other industrialized nations, Americans are asked to bear a very low level of taxes. I know I am leaving the door open to the screaming hoards of anti-tax fanatics, but I am fairly satisfied with the way my govt runs. Could it do better? Of course it could. Anything as massive as the required govt that it takes to do what is required by this massive nation will always be open to improvement.

[Mastikator]

Asked to pay taxes?

I was never asked to pay taxes. They were just taken.

The way I see it, it's kind of like the "woman who dresses like a slut" argument for rape. Just because she dresses like she wants it doesn't mean it's okay to use violence.

Just because I want to be charitable doesn't mean I like to be stolen from.

It doesn't matter what I think or how I vote or what politician I write a letter to, I can not change anything and my stuff will be taken by taxation.

[Forkroute]

It has nothing to do with 'generous', it is obligation of a person who wants to be a part of society and not solitary possessiveness.

Yes, you have obligations and responsibilities in life.

Living for yourself has no meaning what so ever, one of the greater meanings of life - are others.

[Mastikator]

I don't believe in deontology, I do not want to pay for your religious beliefs, I am sick of being vilified for not believing what you believe.

Like I already said, asshole, I help people whenever I can, I give money to homeless, I share my stuff with my friends. That does not fucking make me a slave to society, nor does it make me a slave to the state, nor to you. Tyrant. Go away.

[Forkroute]

Do you live in England? No.

The state is separated, so tax does not go to religion.

You have obligations and responsibilities in life for other people too.

this has nothing to do with "deontology".

to donate/contribute is from free will, and slavery has nothing to do with it it is far fetched from the basics of obligations - there is no absolute freedom and the form of freedom is handicapped (you cannot kill anyone else by the rules) and that does not make you a right-less SLAVE.

[Avarice176]

"I am fairly satisfied with the way my gov't runs."

ARE YOU THAT BLIND!?? YOUR hard earned tax dollars are being THROWN down the drain and given to special interest groups!!!! not just thousands, or millions, BILLIONS! We have over a TRILLION dollar defecit, and a MULTI TRILLION dollar debt!

So NO! These tax levels are NOT reasonable until they learn how to be frugal with OUR money! Besides, you may agree with what they spend the money on, but I DONT. So why should i hav 2 pay??

[Plutonwolf]

And I suppose you could do better? But I am talking about how my government used to work before people who only wanted to destroy the government were put into office by people like you. I wonder how well Armour Meats would do if a executive board controlled by Vegans took over? Or how well Westinghouse Electrics nuclear division would do if Green Peace ran it? Allowing conservatives to run the show was sheer insanity. The results speak for themselves in bold blazing letters.

[Avarice176]

Could I do better you ask?? Well if you consider letting people keep their own money and not stealing it "better" then yes, i could.

Your stuck in the left-right paradigm. I'm an anarcho-capitalist, but if i had to choose a political party i would choose libertarian.

The democrats spend recklessly just like the republicans. They spend on different things, but spend recklessly none the less. Why you would trust ANYONE in washington to spend your money wiselfy befuddles me beyond belief.

[Plutonwolf]

Anarcho-capitalism in this day and age would probably see the end of life on earth within one generation. Talk about starry eyed blind trust! Didn't Bhopal teach you anything? Love Canal resonate any? I live in the Greater Pittsburgh area, once known as the Steel City, now known as the Cancer capital of the world. My mother, my brother, two cousins, many uncles and aunts, my grand mother, my father and mother in law....all victims of cancer. I lost my friend to brain cancer...age 9

[Avarice176]

Wtf does cancer have to do with anything we're talking about?

Dude ur fighting a lost battle if u want to start comparing industrial/market caused deaths to State caused deaths. Its comical really.

But seeing as this is a subject compeletly unrelated to the original subject, taxes, I'm not going to bother if all ur going to do is redirect to a new subject every comment.

[Plutonwolf]

Anarcho capitalism, and again, you fail to make an easy connection. Either you are as dense as reactor core shielding (I doubt this, but who knows) or you are just being deliberately obtuse. Either way, yu are boring the hell out of me. Go do a little self examination, be who you are without shame and please, fuck right the hell off. Buh bye.

[Avarice176]

Sorry, i dont care about analogies that make no sense nor have any relevance to the current discussion.

Somehow ur friend's brain cancer is related to anarcho-capitalism... right.

BUT WHATEVER! None of this is relevant to the original problem! The Theft that is taxation.

& Yea i'm the dense one.. says the person who hasn't given a single intelligent response.

[Avarice176]

Lets go thru ur list of rebuttal arguments shall we? I bring up the bad spending and problems of taxation; you attack conservatives... I say that democrats and republicans both spend recklessly (and side note that i'm anarcho capitalist); so you attack anarcho capitalism (poorly i might add). See where this is going? NONE of ur comments address the main issue and instead redirect to your subject of choice. Thanks for playing the game, retard.

[Avarice176]

And btw, you completely redirected and didn't address any claim i actually made. All you did was assume I was a conservative, and attacked an irrelevant point.

[Plutonwolf]

If it walks like a duck.......

[Avarice176]

I literally just told u that i'm not a conservative. You're obviously just another one of the media sheep who believe there is only two sides, dem and republican.

If we're playing this game tho, your lack of intelligent responses would lead me to apply the tag of "retarded liberal" to you

[Plutonwolf]

I would call you Cleopatra, but that is an old joke and would most likely zoom right over your head.

[migkillertwo]

"We our all a part of one society"

"Society" is just an abstraction. Its just an idea. "Societies" do not exist.

And yes, it is theft. I never agreed to pay taxes, and the working rich never signed a contract with the Government to pay taxes. the "Social contract" is theft.

[Plutonwolf]

So don't use the highways, the fire department, fly in a plane, eat food, use utilities, expect police protection, go to a doctor, expect to be free from foreign invaders or any of the myriad other things that your pasty little ass takes so much for granted.

[migkillertwo]

The fact that one takes advantage of government services because the circumstances, by and large, force him to isn't an argument against my position. At the very best its a ridiculous ad hominem fallacy.

So the fact that your side, the side representing the state, has to resort to such ridiculous tactics only shows the mediocrity and bankruptcy of your position.

[Aaberg123]

Read Locke?

[Forkroute]

That's very sad to see people that think that people around them are so alienated.

Society = group of people who have joined together to pursue a common interest or goal.

That is your founding fathers and every civilization on earth.

Maybe I'm mistaken but there is no principles of your state or constitution? No common goal at all?

How the hell different you think you are?

[ZamatoElite]

This is retarded. If the rich want to give up their money so bad, they should create a program where they can voluntarily give their money to the Government. Fuck involuntary taxation (i.e. theft).

If I ever become rich, all my income will be sheltered. I will VOLUNTARILY allocate the resources that I EARNED where I want. I would only give my money to private charities. I don't support our "American" tyrannical Government at all.

[FixedNewsChannel]

Well get the fuck out then, go away, you are not required.

You hate your country, now piss off, end of story.

Don't bitch about it like a total fag on the internet.

[ZamatoElite]

Or, I could just change the shitty system. Yea, I think I'll go with that option. If you don't like it, I'll show you to the door.

[classicallady]

Go to Somalia zanato

[ZamatoElite]

Somalia wouldn't be a shithole if it weren't for the "scientific socialist" state that desecrated the region.

Now, please return to your Obama worship you obedient partisan tool.

[migkillertwo]

"You hate your country, now piss off, end of story."

These sorts of comments really show that you are hopelessly ignorant. Libertarians dont hate the arbitrarily defined plot of land called "America", they just hate the coercive monopoly called "the state".

So I encourage you to do two things

1: Get your head out of your ass

2: Stop worshiping the state.

[Plutonwolf]

Ahhh, the overweening certainty of youth. So certain that one has all of the answers and that everyone else who doesn't agree is an idiot or ill informed. Extreme positions are the norm, catch phrases the rule and naivety is expected. Worshiping ones one ascendancy is also called egomania. Where did I say I worship the state BTW? With simplistic callow idiots like you, binary thought is the only way of approaching life that is possible.

Grow up little boy, it is complicated out here.

[migkillertwo]

What did I just say about ad hominems? Your philosophy is completely dead. The sort of ad hominems you're resorting to, once again, only show the bankrupt nature of your position. Come back when you at least have a shaddow of a glimmer of a mirage of a coherent argument for the state.

"Where did I say I worship the state BTW?"

You can't make such idiotic and propagandizing comments like "you hate your country" and deploy them as arguments unless you worship the state.

[Avarice176]

How does wanting to keep the benefits of your labor equate to "hating your country"?

Involuntary taxation is theft. And if its un-american to not support theft, then so be it

[classicallady]

libertarians LOVE financial anarchy

[ZamatoElite]

Liberty is the mother, not the daughter of order.

[regresseur]

What is "financial anarchy"?

[classicallady]

The final goal libertarians are aiming to

[Justusman72]

Obama new slogan for the 2012 election, "Take from the rich and give to the poor. Yes we can. Yes we did."

[FixedNewsChannel]

Damn right. Tax the top 1% to fuck. 

flat 95% tax rate, fuck them.

[ZamatoElite]

Of course, because you are a worthless looter.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

anarchist

[altha2008]

@LeGioNoFZioN that is what jesus is wanting to do. for the rich to give to the poor, but even that rich man was greedy and did not want to do it

[LeGioNoFZioN]

@altha2008 no Jesus wants God's children to be loyal and obediant to the Father. Treating everyone well and supporting those with the least was HOW he sought to achieve the aformentioned means

[classicallady]

and yes you can keep on bagging your sister INBRED

[Justusman72]

That is really classy, "Classic Lady" Judging from your post, it appears that you are one liberal who has cornered the market on intellectual thought.

[Mastikator]

Lemmings jumping off the cliff.

[Plutonwolf]

With their iPods playing a repeat of Rush Limbaugh.

[Mastikator]

Only about half of them doing that.

[Plutonwolf]

25 % are listening to Beck. 12.5% are jamming to Bortz and the rest are jamming out to whale songs.

[Mastikator]

Hehehe ahh... conservatives can be so dumb sometimes. It's sad.

[Plutonwolf]

LOL, indeed. The do not hold exclusive rights to dumb assery, they merely have decided to assert dominance in the field. I would say that they exceed in this endeavor by about a roughly 8 to one ratio.

[Mastikator]

I think it's really sad how the liberals and conservatives always play into the hands of the corporate leaders and their political bedbuddies.

And then they blame each other when in fact they were duped by their own favorite political leader. Like lemmings jumping off the cliff :/

[Plutonwolf]

Both ideologies can be manipulated, this is too true. But in general, conservatives act in a very structured herd beast manner, it's in their DNA, where-as, leading liberals to your objective is like herding cats. Sometimes you can get lucky and find a patch of liberal cat nip, but mostly, they just don't have that inherent structured corporate mind set. This is both a strength and a great weakness for them.

[Mastikator]

Liberals seemed to be easily herded by Obama. I can't tell you how many liberals became ultra-patriotic and almost religious for this guy. It seemed to have cooled down as time passed, but still.

I should point out that I am not a conservative. I tend to disagree with conservatives on more issues than I disagree with liberals. But they are closer to each other than I am to either.

[Plutonwolf]

I have many friends who are definitely liberal, but there is a massive amount of dissatisfaction with Obama over the continuation of the wars, the inaction over the prosecution of the Bush Famiglia for their treason leading up to the wars and many other issues.

The media has decided to portray the liberals as being all wet panties for Obama, but really isn't the case at all. face it, the media is owned by corporations and they know who butters their bread.

[Mastikator]

I for one hope the liberals become more vocal in their criticism of Obama, because I haven't heard a lot, I've seen some from Bill Maher rightfully calling him a corporatist, but that's it.

I'm tired of the conservative's fearmongering of "death panels" and what have you. And the conspiracy nuts about "The Obama Deception" are even more laughable.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

why don't they just give up and tax everyone 75% and see how much good you can do with all that money that all those people worked for. Rich and poor, everyone tax us all 75%

Its the best way to damage the american economy and end American hegemony worldwide

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

At least if they just took the money and spent it on hookers and blow, you guys wouldn't have to deal with the regulation attacks, the welfare traps, the legal tender frauds, the war on employment, the medical guilds, the raperooms, foreign provocation, etc.

My local state takes about that much, and spends it on everything between the sun and the moon. There are very few economic matters in which our state does not intervene, so people here can't even imagine what it would be like without it.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

I hear you, and some people like this guy pontificating just nauseate me, he is more stupid than I am.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

what kind of illeterate bullshit is this guy talking about ? taxes favour the rich ? whiteboy the rich pay over 75% of the tax burden. Not that they shouldn't but damn this guy needs just give up all his income if he feels so strongly.