Who let this lady in? I'll give her 2 colleagues credit, they at least brought facts and figures. She is blabbering out talking points and empty rhetoric. I could hear this from anyone on the street if I wanted to.
@Sivels more precisely against white males. White women benefit more from affirmative action than any other race and/or gender. Even if you don't agree that affirmative action is necessary today, you have to know that it was necessary at one point. And if you you disagree, why?
@PhantomLyric No, if a legitimate problem of unfair discrimination was present you couldn't ever solve it with more discrimination but by repealing discriminatory laws-. After the 2nd world war black unemployment equaled that of white unemployment.
@Sivels correlation does not imply causation. Furthermore, AA did not come about until 2 decades after WW2. I don't see your point? You say "If a legit problem of unfair discrimination was present you couldn't solve it with more discrimination." I disagree. Though I agree AA is unfair in many situations, it'll never be as unfair as what blacks had to suffer through for the past 500 years. So if there has to be a small amount of reverse racism to offset your ancestors effects, so be it.
@Sivels Just because it's unequal, doesn't mean it's not about equality. Eventual equality is still equality in the long run and perhaps there will be at time when it's abolished and no longer necessary, however the time is not now. I full and whole heartedly agree that it is reverse discrimination and I acknowledge that it may hurt some people, however to deny that SOMETHING is necessary to make for history is foolish. I HATE that it hurts people, but I also hate the state blacks are in
@PhantomLyric What about Mississippians? Don't you realize that Connecticutters earn much more, have much lower unemployment rates, and are much more likely to graduate from college? I think all Connecticutters should be forced to give up money, jobs, and scholarships to Mississippians until the wrongs of history are settled and people from all states are equal. That just makes sense!
@CambridgeHeights Did Connecticut citizens historically rape Mississippians of their identity? If so, you make an excellent case. Personally, I'd approve of a motion that would abolish race in an official capacity. I'd have it removed from anything legal. Assault for any reason should be punished the same as it would if it were considered a hate crime. What makes me pulling the trigger on an Asian couple because they were asian any more or less heinous as if I did it just because? Blah!
@PhantomLyric You seem to hold 2 contradictory opinions. On one hand you want to abolish the idea of race, which I agree with. After all why should a person's skin color matter any more than their ear lob width? On the other hand you are in favor of affirmative action, which institutionally groups people into categories based on the melanin concentration of their skin and mandates certain privileges based on that arbitrary form of identity.
@CambridgeHeights I understand how it may seem that way, but let me explain. I believe in affirmative action, but I also believe it should have restrictions. I don't believe children of 2 parents who immigrated to this country AFTER affirmative action took place should benefit, nor do I believe all minorities should benefit from it. Only those directly effected by racial oppression. (this is part 1 of my reply, look for part 2)
@CambridgeHeights (This is part 2) Personally, my g-g-grandfather was a slave. However, his slave master who just happened to be the vice president, was known for his generosity. He never beat his slaves, he put them through school and taught them trades, etc. My ancestors were educated and owned land and businesses and that transcended into my generation. So technically, I come from privilege and honestly, my success comes from merit. So I don't qualify, there are those who didn't fare so well.
@PhantomLyric Why limit it to racial oppression? There are many things that can oppress a person: poverty, addiction, child abuse, rape, torture, war, being harassed in school, living in the south, being fat, living in a trailer park, being stupid, inbred, disabled, having a different sexual orientation, chronic illness, having bad parents, the list goes on and on.
@CambridgeHeights But what you fail to understand is the differences between those things and racial oppression. If it had been against the law 400 years ago to own a slave and keep them against the will, if it had been against the law to not allow blacks to vote, if whites didn't get away with murdering blacks in the streets and starting a barbecue beneath his/her hanging body, we would not be sitting here having this conversation. That's the bottom line. Our government allowed this to happen.
@PhantomLyric That's right. People with lighter skin tones mistreated people with darker skin tones. What does that have to do with today? If you go back in history, you can find countless examples of one color oppressing another, one gender oppressing another, one sexual orientation oppressing another, one religion oppressing another, one tribe oppressing another, etc. None of it has any bearing on how we should conduct society in the present. Race is an outdated 19th century construct. move on
@CambridgeHeights We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about america. A land that has evolved to the point where we are saying "everyone must be created equally" but in order for that to be true, everyone must be given an equal opportunity. Because the opportunity has socioeconomically shifted in the favor of one group over centuries, it is going to take a very long time to readjust the levels so that equality can be achieved. FYI, Whites benefit from AA more than anyone.
@PhantomLyric I'm talking about America. Every one of those examples applies to this land. The crimes committed by individuals of the past have no bearing on the individuals of the present. The fact that one race has more wealth than another is simply due to the fact that people grouped people into "races", and unfortunately, people still insist on doing that. People are individuals. One "race" has more wealth than another. who cares? Would you care if one shoe size had more wealth?
@CambridgeHeights That is where you are completely wrong and that is why AA is in effect today. People who have studied these things for decades will disagree with you. I take it you decided one day that it was just not fair, but again, decades of research prove you wrong. "The crimes committed by individuals of the past have no bearing on the individuals of the present." -- The biggest falsehood I've ever seen in this argument. Every choice your parents made before you were born effected you.
@MrCombatveteran Whites can no more be victims of institutional racism in the US any more than a snake can eat a car.
Whites own this country. They run the banks, insurance companies, brokerages and other industries and corporations.
If it is discrimination it is whites being biased against whites. Blacks have no power in the financial and corporate world where the real decisions are made.
The idea that whites are discriminated against more than anyone else is sick, racist nonsense.
@MrCombatveteran You are defining racism solely as a hate crime when racism is an all pervasive pheneomenon that seeps into and controls education, employment, recreation and even romance.
Racism impacts all aspects of society for people of color.
I have been impacted by racism just like any non-white person in this country. The question is degree.
The fact is-in the writing profession-that non-whites cannot become stars or as a mega-successful as whites because that is how the system is.
The obstacles that people face to get where they are today are completely unrelated to race. There are just as many poor, underprivileged white people as there are such minorities.
The obstacles that people face to get where they are are completely unrelated to race. There are just as many poor, underprivileged white people as minorities.
@MultiSmartass1 with all due respect What you just said is the excuse of losers and weak minded people
Obama made it to the top,
If he had that self defeating mentality you have, then He would would be working at a dead end job and not at the Oval office
I refuse to use that excuse and i refuse to set myself to a lower standard, and you should too because if you fail is not the other guys fault, is your OWN!!!
@MultiSmartass1 You whine about racism and are a racist yourself. I'm not white , but its almost comical the way you portray white people lol. "gated community... have coffee with your blond blued-eyed wife..." by saying dumb things like that you show how small minded you truly are. I don't get why people like you think living in a gated community or having nice things is something only "whites" can achieve. Go to school get a good job and you too can have coffee in a gated community.
@bigball805 Your pitiful excuse for a rebuttal contains no logic, reason or rational attack against my position. You have merely created a strawman scenario by citing phrases used in the text.
The facts are that most upscale and wealthy neighborhoods are filled with whites-this is the way it has been for years.
Funny, how I dont see whites filling the ghettos and slums of this country to the brim-that's because brown people live there.
Stop reading Sci-Fi and start living in the real world.
@MultiSmartass1 Well... the Ghettos, slums, projects, and whatever name you want to give them were originally free or next to free housing to help minorities and those that need financial assistance. Later on they became the horrible places that they are because people turned them into that. Millions of dollars are pumped into those places but they continue to get worse. When something is free you really don't take care of it.
Don't whine or hate someone because they have more than you.
She admits she's a beneficiary of affirmative action, a policy built around racial discrimination, and not someone who earned the right to be where she is solely on the basis of her intellectual capabilities. How fucking sad and pathetic.
I know she did say that she was a beneficiary, but as all other candidates, even on the opposing argument, accept her intelligence. Her intelligence would more likely be overlooked if she didn't have the availability to go to the higher selective colleges. You make it sound like she is pathetic for not being able to get in, but her scores were far beyond those of her peers, yet we blame her for gaining financial aide, the financial aide she does deserve even without her skin color.
@chica476 YES that's the whole point. If we're talking about two candidates with equal qualifications, it is not unfair to favor the minority candidate. But that's a whole world apart from what actually happens, which is to favor candidates who are less qualified in the service of some political ideology. Who would you rather have performing your heart surgery? Someone elected on the basis of their skin color or their test scores? To say skin color, no matter what that color is, is racist.
Almost every argument that she presents actually applies to the upper class compared to the poor. The correlation between blacks and poverty is the most likely explanation for all of her petty examples.
@mattdelhey ya i whole heartedly agree ... she's arguing that race imposes different lanes to college or whatnot... everyone has had trials and tribulations... stop generalizing to particular ethnic groups "white have it easy" "color has it hard" i worked my ass of to go to school... who is this chick telling me i had it easy!?
Please provide a general hierarchy of a victimization class and an oppressor class, because without that determination how do you choose who gets into Harvard Law School and Columbia with a GPA less than 3.30?
Obama was admitted into those competitive universities with poor academic records, with GPAs less than 3.3. Yet both of Obamas parents were well educated, including his Irish/American mother and Kenyan father, a foreign national
AA should def start in the way kids are educated from kindegarten up to a senior in High School in the minority neighborhoods! Thats the Breakdown. inner city schools dont even teach 80% of the stuff thats on the SAT kids take the test and have no clue of what they are looking at. middle class white kids are far better prepared and thats the unfair part. prepare blacks and latino's on the same level as white kids from the start of their educational career and watch the difference!
That would be such a good idea. Only thing is that this would not work! As young children, we are not told about Columbus committing genocide against Native Americans, black slavery, Japanese Concentration camps, Chinese Exclusion Act, etc.
We are told that a wonderful person known as Columbus discovered America and the pilgrims worked with Native Americans on thanksgiving, etc etc.
We would have to work to change this before we could begin AA since kindergarten.
@youngwallst i strongly doubt the argument "the teachers simply did not teach the kids the material" is the cause... im sure there are many many many additive factors that show significant differences in SAT scores... for instance when black students taking the SAT were asked to state their race before beginning the test, they produced significantly lower results... however, when a similar group of black students took the SAT test and were not asked to state their race, they did equally well.
@youngwallst middle class white kids are far better prepared because AA doesn't apply to them. They have to study or they don't get in, is as simple as that and they know it.
Schools are teaching the material needed for the SAT but why would black or Latinos ever pay attention to the course if they are told that thanks to AA it doesn't matter what you know you will still get into college, you will still get the job,and you will still get the promotion because the racial quotas must be meet.
@bigball805 Thats not true at all unless you went to a school in the inner city you cant say what they teach. My Brother just moved to a middle class white neighborhood, him and his wife who is white as well as their children. Now they spent so much money in private schooling in the inner city but when they got to to the suburbs the private school they spent so much money on didnt even match the academic level of the white neighborhood public school thats crazy as hell! AA is def needed!!
@youngwallst AA is actually a very strange to me . I come from Peru where AA does not exist. I have studied in the private system and the public system over there and of course i have and continue to study here. One thing i have learned is that an inner city school here is luxury compared to where i come from. 50-60 students to 1 teacher. Self responsibility Teachers teach and you choose to listen, no AA no free ride. The US is falling behind because things like AA coddle people to mediocrity.
@bigball805 Yea you are right Peru as been exploited for years and its very unfair what people have to face there and it is way worse then the inner city in the US...But you have to understand that alot of blacks and hispanics here have achieved educational goals but still was refused a job or if they got the job they were paid way lest then its counter parts.....Without AA Minorities would have to own their own businesses just to succeed. which is another can of worms in terms business loans!
@youngwallst Are you saying that without AA there is absolutely no way, 0% hope that i could succeed and that i would have to start a business just to succeed? that the country will suddenly turn to Nazism and the klan will rise and segregation will be reinstated and slavery will be legal again?. Is AA the only thing keeping all these white people sane?
The reality is that if AA would disappear tomorrow no one would even notice. Racism exist but is not an excuse or barrier to success anymore.
@erik4727 There you go talking about white power structure and all that nonsense.
Blaming whites for your failures and short comings is the only thing you have ready to say. Its at the tip of your tongue, Its the first thing you have ready in case you can't achieve and its quite old and boring.
Racism and self defeating attitudes still exist because of things like AA. AA is a constant remainder of things that generally don't exist in society anymore. White power structure, HAHAHAHA
@bigball805 I don't know about failures, bud, but there you go again miserably rushing to conclusions. Can you not handle that a minority is smarter than you? You're being nothing but a stupid crybaby, nothing this man says is trying to insult you, it's DESCRIBING you. You're the poster child for white denial. And if you're stupid enough to believe otherwise, may society dispose of you properly.
@erik4727 There YOU go again miserably rushing to conclusions..... Who said i was white HAHAHA. Its funny how your true colors show.... You cry about racism, but you are nothing but a racist who sees the world through nothing but the color of skin.
You try to come off as a rational person who uses logic to make a point, but once you get pushed hard enough your true self comes out.Talking about white denial, I didn't know denial ,or any other noun for that matter, came in colors LOL
@bigball805 I've talked to about 50 of you idiots just now, and it's all the same bullshit ad hominem. How about coming up with a logical rebuttal, and maybe I'll consider responding next time.
@erik4727 Well looks this simple exchange of opinion and ideas was too much for. Its clear that unless you can blame someone of being a white racist, you have very little to offer.
And since I'm not white, i guess you have no other argument or point to make.
@bigball805 you dont have the be white, jackass, it's the same anglo saxon mentality. Just because deep down you hate blacks and you are black yourself, doesn't mean youre not a racist. very little to offer my ass, why should i defend myself to you, when you're the one spewing bullshit and rhetoric you only wish you knew half about.
@erik4727 Well now its REALLY clear that unless you accuse someone of being racist you really don't have anything to say. You ask why you should defend yourself?... well, if you post a comment you put yourself in this situation. If you don't want anyone to disagree with you then unplug your computer, isolate yourself and never interact with anyone ever again! I'm not black by the way, so there you go again miserably rushing to conclusions. Is calling a jackass all you have left to offer?
@bigball805 Really, you could've done so much with that comment, but instead you waste on some useless ad hominem and question why you're one of the biggest jackasses to ever have commented on youtube? I'd call that a failed opportunity.....
@erik4727 I don't think i failed. You actually just did the job for me. You just admitted to me and to the whole world that your comments and points are so weak, that even YOU are pointing out that i could have done so much more with that comment. And its funny because the longer this goes on the longer your comments keep degenerating to childish insults. Which makes sense because you support something like AA which is really a childish attempt to get even with the "white man".
@erik4727 Oh and by the way, You accuse my comments of being useless ad hominem, but you yourself seem to be pointing out that a white person cannot have a valid opinion on the matter, because they are white.
@bigball805 well you leave me no choice! you're like a KKK member who is crying and asking why i wont debate them on an intellectual level. BECAUSE IT'S BEEN PROVEN MOOT BY HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLID CONCRETE SCIENTIFIC AND SOCIAL EVIDENCE. I like how you never called Tim Wise or me a liar, otherwise then, you'd have a point.
@erik4727 Why do yo have to go to such extremes? KKK member? At what point during this exchange have i said that members of another race lack intelligence or potential. While in fact what i have been trying to say is that AA is an insult and a crippling tool that reminds a person that he or she is a member of another ethnic group and therefore need the extra boost.
@bigball805 If you were here living in this low class society you wouldn't be saying this at all. The US don't care for blacks thats why affirmative action takes place it was only 20 yrs ago when white physically and mentally spit on blacks. Whites don't do better because their white, its because they learn about their history that gain interest, the test are bias due to the area you live in, blacks grow in a unfair environment. You see what "white" America wants you to see.
@JayJ004 When you say the "US don't care for blacks" what do you mean by "US" And if affirmative is a government program how can the "US" not care and still have this programs?
You are making a lot of assumptions- Do you assume that I'm white? Do yo assume I'm rich? Are you labeling the entire Caucasian race as racist? Are you from a "low class society"? and if so do you speak for everyone in that class?Unfair environment? have you hear of third world countries? unfair compared to what?
@bigball805 The us as a majority, I don't assume anything, go to my favs and watch the video with the guy with a bike, and put that in to this suppose "war on drugs" were blacks are 10x more likely to get searched, and 70% of users are white.Third world countries, alot of these countries weren't "third war" until whites took over. Africa for one, unfair compared to whites, and by blacks I speak for minorities as well.Alot of whites are subconsciously racist,also blacks are subcon racist, to blks
@JayJ004 The "US" as a majority voted in a black president, The "US" has more programs to help minorities than anywhere else in the world. The so called hateful, racist "US" has donated more money and given more foreign aid money that many of these other so called open minded rich nations have (Haiti is a good example of "US" generosity) And all this comes from the same people you accuse of being racist Nazis. Sometimes is easy to forget these things in the fog of irrational hate.
@bigball805 No it doesn't, show me the facts. I live in that type of neighborhood and haven't seen any of that. Also, ask yourself why they have all this money to donate. due to AA action for whites and accumulation of wealth to be able to due so. People make it seem like black people don't work hard. It is said that on a avg a white person who makes 20,000 a year, is better off then a black person who makes 60000 a year. Due to many factors of this US society, whites always been wrong on racism
@JayJ004 Why don't you show me the facts? a white person making 20k is better off that a minority making 60k? Even you have to admit that what you just stated is bullshit. "white have always been wrong on racism" what do you mean by that? If you are going to label one race with such a broad brush then you have to label everyone else the same. People are racist not because of their skin but because of who they are.
The fact that you have a computer means your not doing that bad.
@bigball805 Your question is extreme. Affirmative action does not generally ever create gaps that big. When it comes to schools, A black person being accepted to Harvard over a white person slightly more qualified than he or she will still have prospects at other top and ivy league colleges. Someone graduating from Standford is not going to be making that much more or less than someone who went to Penn State. And will still be just as qualified for their future career.
Lies, better funded white communities have better resources and are able to have better SAT prep. I never seen black people around me "give up and kick their feet back" because AA exist. Maybe when you can stop listening to white supremacist propaganda, you could understand that black schools do not get the same amount of quality resources.
Gender is the same arguement as race, I don't know why she brought it up. Companies that discriminate on gender are far more likely to fail than those who do not. Terrible idea...
Im not following this entire conversation but i did see that laffytaffygreen wrote jews benefit from AA...Jews do not benefit from AA they are considered caucasian
Truth be told: White women are the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action. So, if the Jewish population of the US is considered white, half of this population benefits quite nicely from affirmative action. All the people against affirmative action tend to forget that women at one time couldn't break into most professions until affirmative action in the 1960s.
Women actually are still not quite equal to their male "equal" there are stats but i dont have them on me at the moment...as for the Jewish women...sure then that is anyone...but I was just commenting that there is no box for jews to check and benefit from a percentage that must be filled...they are mixed in with the rest of the caucasian people...or women if youd like to say...
"I understand that Blacks have gone through a lot, but so have Jews, and they don't benefit from AA." do you , do you realy?, so whats your point am trying to understand that jews don't benefit from AA because they dont need it, do to the fact the perform well...okay so what's the issue?.
Actually, Jews do benefit from Affirmative Action because AA is used for racial/ethnic minorities, that includes Asians, Jewish people, black people, latino/a people, etc. Black people are the face of AA, just like we are the face of welfare, which is not really truth, it's just perception.
Jews are a minority, but they don't benefit from AA.
Look for the section where it helps you. They lump you in as white, or worse... you'll get some racist jerk who drops them for being Jewish and has no need to hire them since Jews aren't covered under AA.
It's the same in Canada. You can get special compensation for anything as long as you aren't either Jewish or a WASP. Even Catholics can at least get certain scholarships.
I think the question they're trying to ask is "why are Jews managing to succeed without AA, and when even in the last century schools and government administrations employed laws and tactics to keep the number of Jews down (see "Jewish Quota") and have suffered terrible discrimination over the years?"
Why is it necessary for other groups to have AA when Jews somehow have managed to pull themselves up?
The same argument can be made for the Japanese who did much the same until they received AA.
You have to be deluded to believe white western society is fair to women or ethnic minorities, so they require the help to balance the status quo, rich white men crashed the economy not rich ethnic people, that must show you the level of imbalance, that position often gained historically through dubious means now difficult to prosecute belatedly. Affirmative Action never took an exam or completed the tasks in a job, get over it.
Get rid of affirmative action because it's not helping the people who need it most which are black and Latino men. It's helping mostly white women, women in general and black women to a lesser degree. We need to get rid of it and focus on education and promoting the value of education in the black and Hispanic community and teaching the kids that they can be more than just athletes and entertainers.
My ancestors immigrated from poor areas of Latvia, Poland, Germany and Scotland, then lived in the North of America, one even fighting in the Civil War. My ancestors never had enough money for slaves, and, in fact, a majority of whites never did. So why should someone that my ancestors never did anything to harm, and that I never did anything to harm, be given preferential treatment?
a disingenuous argument. Listen to what Time Wise said. Whites in the past 50-70 years have benefitted from less policing when they commit crimes, more loans, more subsidies to education, and greater affirmative action benefits. slavery isn't the last time america did fucked up things to minorities.
You know what? Us Latvians suffered much discrimination by Russians, Germans, Poles, and the hundreds of other nationalities that occupied the Baltic region in the past.
Thus, I demand a law be passed to ensure that I be given preferential treatment when seeking a job against a Russian!
Of course, no one would pass a law to rectify past discrimination against whites.
And shoulden't we be focusing on REAL discrimination happening around the world TODAY instead of trying to right the past?
Listen to the STATISTICS Tim uses. Listen to the FACTS Tim uses. In America, the traditional minorities are much more disadvantaged than whites, in all the respects i described. This isn't Russia. From your own admission you have been white americans since at least the time of the civil war.
Look at history! It WAS NOT just non-whites who were disadvantaged and discriminated against, it was pretty much every non Anglo-Saxon. So, shouldn't we White Minorities also gain compensation for our past descrimination?
Of course not. We're white, and no one cares about equality for white people!
More importantly, why should anyone get an advantage over anyone else for something that they can't control? Should I get a better chance at a college because I was born with brown hair?
Plus, why the heck do you insist on argueing about compensation for discrimination that is largely dead in this country? Stop pushing for special treatment, and start fighting for worldwide equal rights! There are plenty of people in the world who are discriminated against for color! In America, it is almost dead and WILL continue to die off all on it's own! Let's stop whining about the past, and FIGHT the REAL racism that happens ALL AROUND THE WORLD TODAY!
listen you monkey, in AMERICA, IN THE PAST 50 years, there is little to no discrimination within the white community. I agree that hundreds of years ago this wasn't the case, but the sociology of race in the modern west is much different with respect to differences among those of euro descent. If you think discrimination is dead in this country you are just factually mistaken. In a country that has more prisoners than china, who are mostly non-white, it is stupid to say there is no racism.
Listen you racist, during both WWI and WWII, Germans like me were discriminated against. After that, Russians endured discrimination because of the cold war. Whites have endured crap too!
Plus there's all the Communists, Socialists, and Anarchists like myself who endure all the repeated Bull of "Red Scares." But of course us Political "Extremists" will NEVER recieve compensation for that, because we're "enemies of America." There is a LOT of discrimination out there, but you only focuson color!
but blacks were discriminated against much more than germans. during the liberation of france, the generals didn't want to have the black soldiers marching into the cities as it would look like they had helped. Also, most radicals/socialists etc. have a view on race relations that are much closer to mine.
A lot of anti communist activity was a cover for anti-civil rights activity. Thats why the FBI under J Edgar Hoover went after SNCC and the Southern Baptist Conventions under HUAC.
When was the last time your race was dehumanize. When u walk into a store, do the sales associate follow you around as if you are going to still something. Or do they refuse to help you even though they are not busy. You don't get discriminated against until you reveal your background because when someone looks at you they automatically see white. Sorry black people cant hide their color like you can hide your background.
Except some Jews wear religious garb, and with many Jews there is a certain look to them due to having been an isolated genetic group for some two thousand years, hence what qualifies them as a race. (You may not that Japanese people look similar to Koreans and Chinese, but they're all different).
Also, look up the concordia riots in Ottawa, protest/near lynching at York in Toronto. In my neighrbouhood people have yelled "fucking Jew" at me. Friends have been assaulted. Where's our AA?
I never said it was dead, but racism has dwindled down to a point where it will continue to die on its own, and things like AA only prolong it!
Plus, you keep avoiding my main question, Why focus on the steadily decreasing racism against blacks in America, when there is TONS of discrimination, for race, religion, political affiliation, gender, and sexual orientation ALL AROUND THE WORLD. Why not focus on addressing them?
I have addressed this point numerous times, and it is the main point many well meaning white liberals in the west miss. Racism is not teleological dwindling thanks to the universe. It is still a huge issue here, even though it isn't as bad as it was in the 1800s or 1950s or whatever.
We should of course focus on it elsewhere, but it should not make us ignore it in our own backyard. One quick example, the most amount of HUD racial discrimination complaints did not come in the 1960s but 2006.
Anyway, Government Monopolies aside, there is NO DENYING that Racism is on a steady decline, and will continue to decrease.
However, I do view the increasing racism against Islam with concern, since I view Islam as one of the True Faiths.
But, we CANNOT solve this through MORE Government control! Look at your past comments. A lot of the descrimination you point out IS FROM the Government and Government Agencies like HUD. We can't fight fire with more fire. We'll only create an inferno!
but thats not the point. While I do believe that HUD and the FHA are valuable for combatting racism, the point is that housing discrimination by race has increased or at least stayed at similar levels since the seventies as witnessed by the rise in the statistics i cited. Thus, Racism is provably not declining just by virtue of the glorious march of history. defend your assertion.
Yep. That's because it's a government-based monopoly. They're free to descriminate however they want because THEY GET PAID REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD OF A JOB THEY DO through taxation. Where, if we look at Privatized Housing, we see that discrimination is much lower then "Public" Housing, since the Free Market is driven by competition and discrimination is bad for bussiness.Government Monopolies are always Bad. HUD cannot be saved, and would be better if we moved Low Income Housing to the FreeMarket
Based on the current situation of the housing market, there are currently too many houses for sale, with not enough buyers. Thus, to make money, realors would have to sell to whoever is willing to buy. And since a realtor usually does not control the homes next to the "for sale" home, why would they care if the nieghbors are unhappy? Furthermore, it is a bad time to sell, so the nieghbors can either cope with it and stay, or leave and try to sell thier house on our current market.
there has been housing busts before, and yet these busts didn't result in a rapid reorganization of the defacto segregation imposed when racial tracking to neighborhoods was practiced by realtors.
fha is an act, it is a regulation on the housing market, not just government built housing projects. it says it is illegal to discriminate in housing based on factors such as race, age, disability etc. etc.
the argument that free markets abhor discrimination is just not true as many businesses in the south were discriminatory in hiring and sales until civil rights legislation outlawed such practices. Even today discrimination happens in free markets, see devah pager's studies at princeton.
Right, so your saying even with FHA, we still have housing discrimination. You have all the evidence for yourself, Legislation like this does NOTHING.
no, it just means that laws are broken. there are murder laws, theft laws, hit and run laws, child abandonment laws, and yet people violate those laws. but you are not addressing my main point, that the incidence of these claims proves DISCRIMINATION STILL EXISTS. you said it didn't. you are wrong.
Sure, it's totally okay to ignore all areas of racial discrimination to focus on the one that supports your views. Look at the whole of the issue, don't only focus on the details that support your point!
In the current housing market, there are too many houses and not enough buyers. Not even the most racist realor can afford to be discriminatory in sales during this time. They NEED every sale they can get or thier bussiness WILL die.
listen, you said discrimination in AMERICA was decreasing a lot. I have evidence that proves it isn't. Discrimination in housing is a big deal, as almost everyone lives in some type of housing. It is the fact that white people don't want to live near minorities. If you haven't heard of white flight before, look to what happened to almost every suburb after they integrated the schools. Its not racist realtors
Please make an empirical argument to support your argument about declining racism.
if you remember, the crux of your opposition to AA was that racism is no longer an issue. so if I understand you correctly, you opposed AA when you thought racism wasn't a significant issue, and you oppose it after acknowledging it is a significant issue.
My point is that racism causes minorities to feel real disadvantage in real ways, ex: housing. we can cure such outcomes of racism with AA. The point isn't curing racists of their views, its helping racism's victims
Why this kind of aid then? How specifically does AA help racism's victims? Wouldn't it be better to say you cannot discriminate who you sell to?
And more importantly, how many people do you know who have been turned down for a job because of thier race?
Personally, I know two, both white, turned down because there were not enough minorities. One scored #1 on the entrance test for the fire department, but alas, there were not enough black firemen.
stop asking personal questions, anecdotes don't answer statistical questions.
AA helps by providing a defacto subsidy to minority groups. when they recieve an educational deficit in school zones by being discriminated in housing, or are not hired due to racist hiring practices AA reverses it by selecting them for education and hiring (for example).
and yes, it would be better to say that people didn't discriminate, but as there is such inequality, caused by racism, we should help its victims.
Personal experiances are important, and judging by your responce, I think it is clear that you have not experianced discrimination in hiring. On the other hand, I know of people who were denied jobs because of their race. I find it strange that you supposedly oppose discrimination based on race, but don't oppose it if it happens to whites.
Isn't that racism?
Regardless of whether it's to help people or stop discrimination, isn't that racism!
but the thing is, as Devah Pager proved with her studies at princeton, blacks and hispanics are discriminated much more. remember, your whole argument was predicated on the fact that racism against disadvantaged minorities is minimal and declining rapidly.
DOJ statistics, studies by plenty of economists and sociologists prove that blacks are discriminated against.
Studies are studies. They usually start with a desired result and try to get evidence for it. The same thing happens with Global Warming. Just from a quick Google search I found several reports that show the contrary. The hard part is deciding who to trust.
There are also very real statistics that show racism has decreased. Anyone who would insist that racism levels are the same or worse then in the time of Dr King (which is rather recent) is just ignorant.
yeah, man scientific inquiry is bullshit. it never proves anything. especially if it was done at an ivy league university and thoroughly vetted by its faculty and the multiplicity of peers that reviewed the work as it passed through academic journals.
remember you didn't say that racism is less than it was in Dr. King's day. you said it was declining so rapidly today that it was a non issue, implying that it didn't affect many people today. tim wise has numbers proving you wrong.
If skin color matters, why do asians do better than whites? Why do those from the West Indies outperform African Americans...despite being the same skin color?
are you using this as an argument against affirmative action? it is not a skin color test, it takes into account race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, orientation, wealth, etc. etc.
And since women now make up almost 60% of those in college, why exactly do they still need benefits?
Actually, I would support a school taking whoever they want...as long as that school doesn't get taxpayer money. If they do, then they MUST remain color blind.
East Asian, South Asian, West Indian, and African immigrants are already highly educated when they arrive in America so they do not have to face the challenges of being the first in their family to take advanced courses, or live in poverty stricken areas and schools. They have a history of success to turn to where too many young African Americans only know of the here and now and have not researched our own history as we can't depend on schools to teach the details.
Really? The massive influx of asians shortly before WWII were highly educated? That is incorrect. They had to face being the first in their family to take advanced courses.
And in any sense, even your argument here contradicts what your side of the debate is saying. They say that the system innately discriminates against color, and asians, West Indies, etc. show that is not the case.
The melting pot of America is so diverse that hardly anyone can track their "history". .....
My own history is a combination of Slavak, Croatian and Polish. I wasn't taught my "own history" in school either. I was taught that of America, as were you. It does me know good to dwell on the injustices my great-grandparents suffered when being purged by communist-Russia. I make the best of what I have in America and, call me crazy, but I just don't think it's right that Jesse Jackson's kids will get more benefits than my own.
Except Blacks are taught that our race had no culture or civilization and that the Greeks and Romans are the ideal empires. We are not taught about our successes in Africa and America ,and when we are it is only half the story. As this recession has shown just because Blacks and Latinos have a middle class doesn't mean it is well established just through one generation. While I believe socio-economic status should play the leading role in determining who benefits race still matters.
Why does she give the example of George Bush, are you fucking kidding me?
She assumes that every white/asian/jewish family is rich enough to enroll their kids in top Universities, and that these "lazy kids" are then allowed to succeed without much effort.
However, a very SMALL percentage of the U.S. actually has the wealth and/or power to do that, around 1% of the U.S.
I understand that Blacks have gone through a lot, but so have Jews, and they don't benefit from AA.
She uses George Bush b/c legacy students may be part of the top 1% of the U.S. population, but they make up a far larger percentage of students at elite colleges and college prep schools. Some schools have as many as 33% of their student body coming from legacy. Elite colleges usually only have about 30% of students even applying for financial aid.
Jews may benefit from AA at some schools. It's not just Blacks who benefit.
Why do you believe Obama was admitted into those competitive universities with such a poor academic record?
Who was oppressed most, (1) Obama, (2) his Irish/American mother or (3) Obamas Kenyan father? Did Kenyans or the Irish suffer most from colonial occupation and oppression?
Should the children of foreign nationals get racial preferences at all, especially since Obamas East African father holds little genetic information in common with American blacks, who are West Africans?
Would you rid the US of legacy students in favor of Obama, who was given AA privileges without proven merit?
Obamas mediocre grades at Occidental College did not merit admission into Colombia, where his mediocre grades should have precluded admittance to Harvard Law School, where he was artificially thrust to the lead the Harvard Law Review, where he became the first leader NOT to write editorial pieces.
Am I am not sure where you get your stats from but the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action are white women and Jews. But because America is a racialized society people only see things in black and white and thus affirmative action became a black thing. Sad when you know not all the facts and you think you do.
It benefits women yes but it does NOT benefit Jews. Jews don't need AA anyways, seeing as how Ashkenazi Jews (european jews) have the highest average IQ.
Go look for it, it isn't there. Ask Jews about it, they'll tell you there is none.
Nothing at all available to us in the states or in Canada.
If there was, maybe a Jewish friend of mine wouldn't have been bumped from getting a harvard position so they could admit a slightly less qualified black woman (he spoke with the admitting professor after).
No AA for Jews... unless you're talking about Jewish religious schools. Then yeah... they tend to prefer Jews ;)
Jewish people are rapidly assimilating into patterns of identifying themselves as "White Jews." I did an extensive research project on it last semester for my sociology research methods class...
I'm sure you did. Did you also notice that when people immigrate somewhere (at least from certain backgrounds, most notably European or Japanese) they want to assimilate, get involved and be PART of the community. It's called active citizenship. The idea of being an outsider isn't a terribly pleasing one.
Next point. Does it matter what they refer to themselves as? Racism comes from without, directed at the group. Blacks could identify as white but that won't end the discrimination, will it?
Or is it that in a white majority country the education system is being taught the history of its fore bearers, and that happens to be European history and the ancient Greeks and Romans.
My bet is that in black dominated countries the education focuses on black history, and any white kid who asks "what about white accomplishments in history" is told to shut up.
People forget that we do live in a white majority country. Sucks for minorities (including myself), but I accept I'm on whitey's turf.
I see you only addressed asian immigrants and still lump them all together. It is still a fact that east asians and south asians come to america with more education than southeast asians and you see the results in achievement. Also if you look at America's history other people of color were discriminated against but African Americans were stilled considered the lowest including below Africans. If you've read Up From Slavery you know that is true.
remember you continue to assert a statistical argument, that racism has dwindled rapidly and is not an issue for minorities. no where have you cited anything to that effect whereas i have cited both tim wise, department of justice statistics, and devah pager's work regarding hiring practices.
I enjoy this debate but you ought to provide some broader proof than specific anecdotes if you want to prove your point.
sigh... i'd love to see the presentation, too.
miyugimao 1 month ago
Who let this lady in? I'll give her 2 colleagues credit, they at least brought facts and figures. She is blabbering out talking points and empty rhetoric. I could hear this from anyone on the street if I wanted to.
BrotherAtticus 1 month ago
affirmative action is racism against whites.
Sivels 3 months ago
@Sivels more precisely against white males. White women benefit more from affirmative action than any other race and/or gender. Even if you don't agree that affirmative action is necessary today, you have to know that it was necessary at one point. And if you you disagree, why?
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric No, if a legitimate problem of unfair discrimination was present you couldn't ever solve it with more discrimination but by repealing discriminatory laws-. After the 2nd world war black unemployment equaled that of white unemployment.
Sivels 1 month ago
@Sivels correlation does not imply causation. Furthermore, AA did not come about until 2 decades after WW2. I don't see your point? You say "If a legit problem of unfair discrimination was present you couldn't solve it with more discrimination." I disagree. Though I agree AA is unfair in many situations, it'll never be as unfair as what blacks had to suffer through for the past 500 years. So if there has to be a small amount of reverse racism to offset your ancestors effects, so be it.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric solving discrimination with discrimination is a contradiction.
Sivels 1 month ago
@Sivels Only if you assume the goal is immediate equality. With AA, the goal is eventual equality.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric equality through discrimination is a contradiction too.
Sivels 1 month ago
@Sivels Again, only if you assume the goal is immediate equality in which it is not.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric Well, the means ARE the ends so if we assume what you're saying is true then AA was never about equality.
Sivels 1 month ago
@Sivels Just because it's unequal, doesn't mean it's not about equality. Eventual equality is still equality in the long run and perhaps there will be at time when it's abolished and no longer necessary, however the time is not now. I full and whole heartedly agree that it is reverse discrimination and I acknowledge that it may hurt some people, however to deny that SOMETHING is necessary to make for history is foolish. I HATE that it hurts people, but I also hate the state blacks are in
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric What about Mississippians? Don't you realize that Connecticutters earn much more, have much lower unemployment rates, and are much more likely to graduate from college? I think all Connecticutters should be forced to give up money, jobs, and scholarships to Mississippians until the wrongs of history are settled and people from all states are equal. That just makes sense!
CambridgeHeights 1 month ago
@CambridgeHeights Did Connecticut citizens historically rape Mississippians of their identity? If so, you make an excellent case. Personally, I'd approve of a motion that would abolish race in an official capacity. I'd have it removed from anything legal. Assault for any reason should be punished the same as it would if it were considered a hate crime. What makes me pulling the trigger on an Asian couple because they were asian any more or less heinous as if I did it just because? Blah!
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric You seem to hold 2 contradictory opinions. On one hand you want to abolish the idea of race, which I agree with. After all why should a person's skin color matter any more than their ear lob width? On the other hand you are in favor of affirmative action, which institutionally groups people into categories based on the melanin concentration of their skin and mandates certain privileges based on that arbitrary form of identity.
CambridgeHeights 1 month ago
@CambridgeHeights I understand how it may seem that way, but let me explain. I believe in affirmative action, but I also believe it should have restrictions. I don't believe children of 2 parents who immigrated to this country AFTER affirmative action took place should benefit, nor do I believe all minorities should benefit from it. Only those directly effected by racial oppression. (this is part 1 of my reply, look for part 2)
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@CambridgeHeights (This is part 2) Personally, my g-g-grandfather was a slave. However, his slave master who just happened to be the vice president, was known for his generosity. He never beat his slaves, he put them through school and taught them trades, etc. My ancestors were educated and owned land and businesses and that transcended into my generation. So technically, I come from privilege and honestly, my success comes from merit. So I don't qualify, there are those who didn't fare so well.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric Why limit it to racial oppression? There are many things that can oppress a person: poverty, addiction, child abuse, rape, torture, war, being harassed in school, living in the south, being fat, living in a trailer park, being stupid, inbred, disabled, having a different sexual orientation, chronic illness, having bad parents, the list goes on and on.
CambridgeHeights 1 month ago
@CambridgeHeights But what you fail to understand is the differences between those things and racial oppression. If it had been against the law 400 years ago to own a slave and keep them against the will, if it had been against the law to not allow blacks to vote, if whites didn't get away with murdering blacks in the streets and starting a barbecue beneath his/her hanging body, we would not be sitting here having this conversation. That's the bottom line. Our government allowed this to happen.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric That's right. People with lighter skin tones mistreated people with darker skin tones. What does that have to do with today? If you go back in history, you can find countless examples of one color oppressing another, one gender oppressing another, one sexual orientation oppressing another, one religion oppressing another, one tribe oppressing another, etc. None of it has any bearing on how we should conduct society in the present. Race is an outdated 19th century construct. move on
CambridgeHeights 1 month ago
@CambridgeHeights We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about america. A land that has evolved to the point where we are saying "everyone must be created equally" but in order for that to be true, everyone must be given an equal opportunity. Because the opportunity has socioeconomically shifted in the favor of one group over centuries, it is going to take a very long time to readjust the levels so that equality can be achieved. FYI, Whites benefit from AA more than anyone.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@PhantomLyric I'm talking about America. Every one of those examples applies to this land. The crimes committed by individuals of the past have no bearing on the individuals of the present. The fact that one race has more wealth than another is simply due to the fact that people grouped people into "races", and unfortunately, people still insist on doing that. People are individuals. One "race" has more wealth than another. who cares? Would you care if one shoe size had more wealth?
CambridgeHeights 1 month ago
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PhantomLyric 1 month ago
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@CambridgeHeights That is where you are completely wrong and that is why AA is in effect today. People who have studied these things for decades will disagree with you. I take it you decided one day that it was just not fair, but again, decades of research prove you wrong. "The crimes committed by individuals of the past have no bearing on the individuals of the present." -- The biggest falsehood I've ever seen in this argument. Every choice your parents made before you were born effected you.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@MrCombatveteran You're posting to my comments so you 're the one harassing me. Dont contact me again or post to my comments again, got it?
MultiSmartass1 8 months ago
@MrCombatveteran That's maybe a hundred out of millions of blacks. What about them?
What you are saying is he same nonsense that the racist likes to say.
Also, most of those people are athletes-big deal.
I dont see scientists, CEOs, engineers, professors, novelists or other real professions because AAs are not represented fully in any of them.
Use skewed examples and you get a skewed answer.
By the way, you are playing the victim with our white people are victims of racism garbage.Liar.
MultiSmartass1 9 months ago
@MrCombatveteran Whites can no more be victims of institutional racism in the US any more than a snake can eat a car.
Whites own this country. They run the banks, insurance companies, brokerages and other industries and corporations.
If it is discrimination it is whites being biased against whites. Blacks have no power in the financial and corporate world where the real decisions are made.
The idea that whites are discriminated against more than anyone else is sick, racist nonsense.
MultiSmartass1 9 months ago
@MrCombatveteran You are defining racism solely as a hate crime when racism is an all pervasive pheneomenon that seeps into and controls education, employment, recreation and even romance.
Racism impacts all aspects of society for people of color.
I have been impacted by racism just like any non-white person in this country. The question is degree.
The fact is-in the writing profession-that non-whites cannot become stars or as a mega-successful as whites because that is how the system is.
MultiSmartass1 9 months ago
@MrCombatveteran Actually, I didn't insinuate anything-I stated it outright. So much for intelligence for your part.
The idea that I need to establish any credability with you is laughable beyond belief.
MultiSmartass1 9 months ago
@MrCombatveteran Technically, it wouldn't be racist since I didn't make any reference to this person's race.
At best it was be classist.
And he/ she/Whatever deserved it because they are racist-like you.
Let's face it-this country was founded, built and operated to serve and benefit whites and whites only.
All you need to do is be a competant student of history to know that.
Blacks, latinos and natives have always been treated like scum and oppressed.
America-if you dont like it, leave it.
MultiSmartass1 9 months ago
I like that there are whites and blacks for and against both positions. Interesting intellectuality flowing around.
dancingwithcalvin 10 months ago
I love how she implies that since legacy preferences exist, race preferences are justified... they're both wrong.
lacusftw 1 year ago
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The obstacles that people face to get where they are today are completely unrelated to race. There are just as many poor, underprivileged white people as there are such minorities.
lacusftw 1 year ago
The obstacles that people face to get where they are are completely unrelated to race. There are just as many poor, underprivileged white people as minorities.
lacusftw 1 year ago
@lacusftw Bullshit. Whites have white skin privilege and white cultural capital which goes a long way.
Besides, the idea that poverty or economic inequity is somehow divorced from race has never existed in this society.
Class and race go together just as class and sex go together.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
@MultiSmartass1 with all due respect What you just said is the excuse of losers and weak minded people
Obama made it to the top,
If he had that self defeating mentality you have, then He would would be working at a dead end job and not at the Oval office
I refuse to use that excuse and i refuse to set myself to a lower standard, and you should too because if you fail is not the other guys fault, is your OWN!!!
bigball805 11 months ago
@bigball805 The only weak-minded person is you.
This a racist country: always has been and always will be.
Simply because Obama is in the White House no more changes that.
You are looking at the ends solely without considering the means that affect millions of people.
You are probably not a person of color therefore you can never understand.
Just stay in your gated community, have coffee with your blond blue-eyed wife and just shut up.
MultiSmartass1 11 months ago
@MultiSmartass1 You whine about racism and are a racist yourself. I'm not white , but its almost comical the way you portray white people lol. "gated community... have coffee with your blond blued-eyed wife..." by saying dumb things like that you show how small minded you truly are. I don't get why people like you think living in a gated community or having nice things is something only "whites" can achieve. Go to school get a good job and you too can have coffee in a gated community.
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 Your pitiful excuse for a rebuttal contains no logic, reason or rational attack against my position. You have merely created a strawman scenario by citing phrases used in the text.
The facts are that most upscale and wealthy neighborhoods are filled with whites-this is the way it has been for years.
Funny, how I dont see whites filling the ghettos and slums of this country to the brim-that's because brown people live there.
Stop reading Sci-Fi and start living in the real world.
MultiSmartass1 8 months ago
@MultiSmartass1 Well... the Ghettos, slums, projects, and whatever name you want to give them were originally free or next to free housing to help minorities and those that need financial assistance. Later on they became the horrible places that they are because people turned them into that. Millions of dollars are pumped into those places but they continue to get worse. When something is free you really don't take care of it.
Don't whine or hate someone because they have more than you.
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 You're the whiner here, whining about affirmative action.
why dont you quit your whining and grow up.
Life is about rich and poor, black and white.
Whites will always have more money than blacks.
Blacks dont have any money.
You're always lying and saying there are plenty of black millionaires when that isn't the case.
As for the ghettoes, no such thing as free housing. The housing porjects were affordable housing but segregated.
Your argument is racist like you.
MultiSmartass1 8 months ago
Wow, her race track analogy is pure brilliance.
latinschoolofchicago 1 year ago
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Wow, her analogy of the race track was superb!
latinschoolofchicago 1 year ago
Wow, her analogy with the race track was superb!
latinschoolofchicago 1 year ago
She admits she's a beneficiary of affirmative action, a policy built around racial discrimination, and not someone who earned the right to be where she is solely on the basis of her intellectual capabilities. How fucking sad and pathetic.
sleepcity 1 year ago
@sleepcity
I know she did say that she was a beneficiary, but as all other candidates, even on the opposing argument, accept her intelligence. Her intelligence would more likely be overlooked if she didn't have the availability to go to the higher selective colleges. You make it sound like she is pathetic for not being able to get in, but her scores were far beyond those of her peers, yet we blame her for gaining financial aide, the financial aide she does deserve even without her skin color.
BlancoThunda 1 year ago
So... perhaps the question should'nt be about race or ethnic background, but rather socio-economic standing?
chica476 1 year ago
@chica476 YES that's the whole point. If we're talking about two candidates with equal qualifications, it is not unfair to favor the minority candidate. But that's a whole world apart from what actually happens, which is to favor candidates who are less qualified in the service of some political ideology. Who would you rather have performing your heart surgery? Someone elected on the basis of their skin color or their test scores? To say skin color, no matter what that color is, is racist.
sleepcity 1 year ago
Almost every argument that she presents actually applies to the upper class compared to the poor. The correlation between blacks and poverty is the most likely explanation for all of her petty examples.
mattdelhey 1 year ago
@mattdelhey ya i whole heartedly agree ... she's arguing that race imposes different lanes to college or whatnot... everyone has had trials and tribulations... stop generalizing to particular ethnic groups "white have it easy" "color has it hard" i worked my ass of to go to school... who is this chick telling me i had it easy!?
basketball1688 1 year ago
Please provide a general hierarchy of a victimization class and an oppressor class, because without that determination how do you choose who gets into Harvard Law School and Columbia with a GPA less than 3.30?
Obama was admitted into those competitive universities with poor academic records, with GPAs less than 3.3. Yet both of Obamas parents were well educated, including his Irish/American mother and Kenyan father, a foreign national
islandmuffin 1 year ago
AA should def start in the way kids are educated from kindegarten up to a senior in High School in the minority neighborhoods! Thats the Breakdown. inner city schools dont even teach 80% of the stuff thats on the SAT kids take the test and have no clue of what they are looking at. middle class white kids are far better prepared and thats the unfair part. prepare blacks and latino's on the same level as white kids from the start of their educational career and watch the difference!
youngwallst 2 years ago
That would be such a good idea. Only thing is that this would not work! As young children, we are not told about Columbus committing genocide against Native Americans, black slavery, Japanese Concentration camps, Chinese Exclusion Act, etc.
We are told that a wonderful person known as Columbus discovered America and the pilgrims worked with Native Americans on thanksgiving, etc etc.
We would have to work to change this before we could begin AA since kindergarten.
sixchick123 2 years ago
@youngwallst i strongly doubt the argument "the teachers simply did not teach the kids the material" is the cause... im sure there are many many many additive factors that show significant differences in SAT scores... for instance when black students taking the SAT were asked to state their race before beginning the test, they produced significantly lower results... however, when a similar group of black students took the SAT test and were not asked to state their race, they did equally well.
basketball1688 1 year ago
@youngwallst middle class white kids are far better prepared because AA doesn't apply to them. They have to study or they don't get in, is as simple as that and they know it.
Schools are teaching the material needed for the SAT but why would black or Latinos ever pay attention to the course if they are told that thanks to AA it doesn't matter what you know you will still get into college, you will still get the job,and you will still get the promotion because the racial quotas must be meet.
bigball805 11 months ago
@bigball805 Thats not true at all unless you went to a school in the inner city you cant say what they teach. My Brother just moved to a middle class white neighborhood, him and his wife who is white as well as their children. Now they spent so much money in private schooling in the inner city but when they got to to the suburbs the private school they spent so much money on didnt even match the academic level of the white neighborhood public school thats crazy as hell! AA is def needed!!
youngwallst 11 months ago
@youngwallst AA is actually a very strange to me . I come from Peru where AA does not exist. I have studied in the private system and the public system over there and of course i have and continue to study here. One thing i have learned is that an inner city school here is luxury compared to where i come from. 50-60 students to 1 teacher. Self responsibility Teachers teach and you choose to listen, no AA no free ride. The US is falling behind because things like AA coddle people to mediocrity.
bigball805 11 months ago
@bigball805 Yea you are right Peru as been exploited for years and its very unfair what people have to face there and it is way worse then the inner city in the US...But you have to understand that alot of blacks and hispanics here have achieved educational goals but still was refused a job or if they got the job they were paid way lest then its counter parts.....Without AA Minorities would have to own their own businesses just to succeed. which is another can of worms in terms business loans!
youngwallst 11 months ago
@youngwallst Are you saying that without AA there is absolutely no way, 0% hope that i could succeed and that i would have to start a business just to succeed? that the country will suddenly turn to Nazism and the klan will rise and segregation will be reinstated and slavery will be legal again?. Is AA the only thing keeping all these white people sane?
The reality is that if AA would disappear tomorrow no one would even notice. Racism exist but is not an excuse or barrier to success anymore.
bigball805 11 months ago
@bigball805 It wouldn't help. It would only achieve in maintaining the white power structure you seem to love so much
erik4727 8 months ago
@erik4727 There you go talking about white power structure and all that nonsense.
Blaming whites for your failures and short comings is the only thing you have ready to say. Its at the tip of your tongue, Its the first thing you have ready in case you can't achieve and its quite old and boring.
Racism and self defeating attitudes still exist because of things like AA. AA is a constant remainder of things that generally don't exist in society anymore. White power structure, HAHAHAHA
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 I don't know about failures, bud, but there you go again miserably rushing to conclusions. Can you not handle that a minority is smarter than you? You're being nothing but a stupid crybaby, nothing this man says is trying to insult you, it's DESCRIBING you. You're the poster child for white denial. And if you're stupid enough to believe otherwise, may society dispose of you properly.
erik4727 8 months ago
@erik4727 There YOU go again miserably rushing to conclusions..... Who said i was white HAHAHA. Its funny how your true colors show.... You cry about racism, but you are nothing but a racist who sees the world through nothing but the color of skin.
You try to come off as a rational person who uses logic to make a point, but once you get pushed hard enough your true self comes out.Talking about white denial, I didn't know denial ,or any other noun for that matter, came in colors LOL
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 I've talked to about 50 of you idiots just now, and it's all the same bullshit ad hominem. How about coming up with a logical rebuttal, and maybe I'll consider responding next time.
erik4727 8 months ago
@erik4727 Well looks this simple exchange of opinion and ideas was too much for. Its clear that unless you can blame someone of being a white racist, you have very little to offer.
And since I'm not white, i guess you have no other argument or point to make.
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 you dont have the be white, jackass, it's the same anglo saxon mentality. Just because deep down you hate blacks and you are black yourself, doesn't mean youre not a racist. very little to offer my ass, why should i defend myself to you, when you're the one spewing bullshit and rhetoric you only wish you knew half about.
erik4727 8 months ago
@erik4727 Well now its REALLY clear that unless you accuse someone of being racist you really don't have anything to say. You ask why you should defend yourself?... well, if you post a comment you put yourself in this situation. If you don't want anyone to disagree with you then unplug your computer, isolate yourself and never interact with anyone ever again! I'm not black by the way, so there you go again miserably rushing to conclusions. Is calling a jackass all you have left to offer?
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 Really, you could've done so much with that comment, but instead you waste on some useless ad hominem and question why you're one of the biggest jackasses to ever have commented on youtube? I'd call that a failed opportunity.....
erik4727 8 months ago
@erik4727 I don't think i failed. You actually just did the job for me. You just admitted to me and to the whole world that your comments and points are so weak, that even YOU are pointing out that i could have done so much more with that comment. And its funny because the longer this goes on the longer your comments keep degenerating to childish insults. Which makes sense because you support something like AA which is really a childish attempt to get even with the "white man".
bigball805 8 months ago
@erik4727 Oh and by the way, You accuse my comments of being useless ad hominem, but you yourself seem to be pointing out that a white person cannot have a valid opinion on the matter, because they are white.
tsk tsk tsk....
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 well you leave me no choice! you're like a KKK member who is crying and asking why i wont debate them on an intellectual level. BECAUSE IT'S BEEN PROVEN MOOT BY HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLID CONCRETE SCIENTIFIC AND SOCIAL EVIDENCE. I like how you never called Tim Wise or me a liar, otherwise then, you'd have a point.
erik4727 8 months ago
@erik4727 Why do yo have to go to such extremes? KKK member? At what point during this exchange have i said that members of another race lack intelligence or potential. While in fact what i have been trying to say is that AA is an insult and a crippling tool that reminds a person that he or she is a member of another ethnic group and therefore need the extra boost.
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 Like indicates a simile:
–noun
1.
a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in “she is like a rose.” Compare metaphor.
2.
an instance of such a figure of speech or a use of words exemplifying it.
I read your previous comments, that's how I made the link.
erik4727 8 months ago
@bigball805 If white preference aka White AA didn't exist in this society, then i wouldnt be having this conversation with you.
erik4727 8 months ago
@bigball805 If you were here living in this low class society you wouldn't be saying this at all. The US don't care for blacks thats why affirmative action takes place it was only 20 yrs ago when white physically and mentally spit on blacks. Whites don't do better because their white, its because they learn about their history that gain interest, the test are bias due to the area you live in, blacks grow in a unfair environment. You see what "white" America wants you to see.
JayJ004 8 months ago 2
@JayJ004 When you say the "US don't care for blacks" what do you mean by "US" And if affirmative is a government program how can the "US" not care and still have this programs?
You are making a lot of assumptions- Do you assume that I'm white? Do yo assume I'm rich? Are you labeling the entire Caucasian race as racist? Are you from a "low class society"? and if so do you speak for everyone in that class?Unfair environment? have you hear of third world countries? unfair compared to what?
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 The us as a majority, I don't assume anything, go to my favs and watch the video with the guy with a bike, and put that in to this suppose "war on drugs" were blacks are 10x more likely to get searched, and 70% of users are white.Third world countries, alot of these countries weren't "third war" until whites took over. Africa for one, unfair compared to whites, and by blacks I speak for minorities as well.Alot of whites are subconsciously racist,also blacks are subcon racist, to blks
JayJ004 8 months ago
@JayJ004 The "US" as a majority voted in a black president, The "US" has more programs to help minorities than anywhere else in the world. The so called hateful, racist "US" has donated more money and given more foreign aid money that many of these other so called open minded rich nations have (Haiti is a good example of "US" generosity) And all this comes from the same people you accuse of being racist Nazis. Sometimes is easy to forget these things in the fog of irrational hate.
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 No it doesn't, show me the facts. I live in that type of neighborhood and haven't seen any of that. Also, ask yourself why they have all this money to donate. due to AA action for whites and accumulation of wealth to be able to due so. People make it seem like black people don't work hard. It is said that on a avg a white person who makes 20,000 a year, is better off then a black person who makes 60000 a year. Due to many factors of this US society, whites always been wrong on racism
JayJ004 8 months ago
@JayJ004 Why don't you show me the facts? a white person making 20k is better off that a minority making 60k? Even you have to admit that what you just stated is bullshit. "white have always been wrong on racism" what do you mean by that? If you are going to label one race with such a broad brush then you have to label everyone else the same. People are racist not because of their skin but because of who they are.
The fact that you have a computer means your not doing that bad.
bigball805 8 months ago
@bigball805 Your question is extreme. Affirmative action does not generally ever create gaps that big. When it comes to schools, A black person being accepted to Harvard over a white person slightly more qualified than he or she will still have prospects at other top and ivy league colleges. Someone graduating from Standford is not going to be making that much more or less than someone who went to Penn State. And will still be just as qualified for their future career.
PhantomLyric 1 month ago
@bigball805
Lies, better funded white communities have better resources and are able to have better SAT prep. I never seen black people around me "give up and kick their feet back" because AA exist. Maybe when you can stop listening to white supremacist propaganda, you could understand that black schools do not get the same amount of quality resources.
fishsticksIV 8 months ago
Why is it when we talk about disadvantaged minorities, we do not mention poor white trash.
daizee106 2 years ago
Gender is the same arguement as race, I don't know why she brought it up. Companies that discriminate on gender are far more likely to fail than those who do not. Terrible idea...
Owner46 2 years ago
Im not following this entire conversation but i did see that laffytaffygreen wrote jews benefit from AA...Jews do not benefit from AA they are considered caucasian
sammy1640 2 years ago
Truth be told: White women are the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action. So, if the Jewish population of the US is considered white, half of this population benefits quite nicely from affirmative action. All the people against affirmative action tend to forget that women at one time couldn't break into most professions until affirmative action in the 1960s.
angelbeta 2 years ago
Women actually are still not quite equal to their male "equal" there are stats but i dont have them on me at the moment...as for the Jewish women...sure then that is anyone...but I was just commenting that there is no box for jews to check and benefit from a percentage that must be filled...they are mixed in with the rest of the caucasian people...or women if youd like to say...
sammy1640 2 years ago
She uses interesting analogies and visualization.
laffytaffygreen 2 years ago
"I understand that Blacks have gone through a lot, but so have Jews, and they don't benefit from AA." do you , do you realy?, so whats your point am trying to understand that jews don't benefit from AA because they dont need it, do to the fact the perform well...okay so what's the issue?.
Hexsal 2 years ago
Actually, Jews do benefit from Affirmative Action because AA is used for racial/ethnic minorities, that includes Asians, Jewish people, black people, latino/a people, etc. Black people are the face of AA, just like we are the face of welfare, which is not really truth, it's just perception.
laffytaffygreen 2 years ago
Jews are a minority, but they don't benefit from AA.
Look for the section where it helps you. They lump you in as white, or worse... you'll get some racist jerk who drops them for being Jewish and has no need to hire them since Jews aren't covered under AA.
It's the same in Canada. You can get special compensation for anything as long as you aren't either Jewish or a WASP. Even Catholics can at least get certain scholarships.
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
I think the question they're trying to ask is "why are Jews managing to succeed without AA, and when even in the last century schools and government administrations employed laws and tactics to keep the number of Jews down (see "Jewish Quota") and have suffered terrible discrimination over the years?"
Why is it necessary for other groups to have AA when Jews somehow have managed to pull themselves up?
The same argument can be made for the Japanese who did much the same until they received AA.
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
Until America deals with the truth of itself, we will continue to revolve around the same "mountain."
MrRingmaster 2 years ago
You have to be deluded to believe white western society is fair to women or ethnic minorities, so they require the help to balance the status quo, rich white men crashed the economy not rich ethnic people, that must show you the level of imbalance, that position often gained historically through dubious means now difficult to prosecute belatedly. Affirmative Action never took an exam or completed the tasks in a job, get over it.
Raybanmonster 2 years ago
Get rid of affirmative action because it's not helping the people who need it most which are black and Latino men. It's helping mostly white women, women in general and black women to a lesser degree. We need to get rid of it and focus on education and promoting the value of education in the black and Hispanic community and teaching the kids that they can be more than just athletes and entertainers.
kuunami 2 years ago
If your grandfather stole 3 billion dollars should you inherit his fortune?
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
My ancestors immigrated from poor areas of Latvia, Poland, Germany and Scotland, then lived in the North of America, one even fighting in the Civil War. My ancestors never had enough money for slaves, and, in fact, a majority of whites never did. So why should someone that my ancestors never did anything to harm, and that I never did anything to harm, be given preferential treatment?
DoomHippie 2 years ago
a disingenuous argument. Listen to what Time Wise said. Whites in the past 50-70 years have benefitted from less policing when they commit crimes, more loans, more subsidies to education, and greater affirmative action benefits. slavery isn't the last time america did fucked up things to minorities.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago 2
You know what? Us Latvians suffered much discrimination by Russians, Germans, Poles, and the hundreds of other nationalities that occupied the Baltic region in the past.
Thus, I demand a law be passed to ensure that I be given preferential treatment when seeking a job against a Russian!
Of course, no one would pass a law to rectify past discrimination against whites.
And shoulden't we be focusing on REAL discrimination happening around the world TODAY instead of trying to right the past?
DoomHippie 2 years ago
Listen to the STATISTICS Tim uses. Listen to the FACTS Tim uses. In America, the traditional minorities are much more disadvantaged than whites, in all the respects i described. This isn't Russia. From your own admission you have been white americans since at least the time of the civil war.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago 2
Look at history! It WAS NOT just non-whites who were disadvantaged and discriminated against, it was pretty much every non Anglo-Saxon. So, shouldn't we White Minorities also gain compensation for our past descrimination?
Of course not. We're white, and no one cares about equality for white people!
More importantly, why should anyone get an advantage over anyone else for something that they can't control? Should I get a better chance at a college because I was born with brown hair?
DoomHippie 2 years ago
Plus, why the heck do you insist on argueing about compensation for discrimination that is largely dead in this country? Stop pushing for special treatment, and start fighting for worldwide equal rights! There are plenty of people in the world who are discriminated against for color! In America, it is almost dead and WILL continue to die off all on it's own! Let's stop whining about the past, and FIGHT the REAL racism that happens ALL AROUND THE WORLD TODAY!
DoomHippie 2 years ago
listen you monkey, in AMERICA, IN THE PAST 50 years, there is little to no discrimination within the white community. I agree that hundreds of years ago this wasn't the case, but the sociology of race in the modern west is much different with respect to differences among those of euro descent. If you think discrimination is dead in this country you are just factually mistaken. In a country that has more prisoners than china, who are mostly non-white, it is stupid to say there is no racism.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago 2
Listen you racist, during both WWI and WWII, Germans like me were discriminated against. After that, Russians endured discrimination because of the cold war. Whites have endured crap too!
Plus there's all the Communists, Socialists, and Anarchists like myself who endure all the repeated Bull of "Red Scares." But of course us Political "Extremists" will NEVER recieve compensation for that, because we're "enemies of America." There is a LOT of discrimination out there, but you only focuson color!
DoomHippie 2 years ago
but blacks were discriminated against much more than germans. during the liberation of france, the generals didn't want to have the black soldiers marching into the cities as it would look like they had helped. Also, most radicals/socialists etc. have a view on race relations that are much closer to mine.
A lot of anti communist activity was a cover for anti-civil rights activity. Thats why the FBI under J Edgar Hoover went after SNCC and the Southern Baptist Conventions under HUAC.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
When was the last time your race was dehumanize. When u walk into a store, do the sales associate follow you around as if you are going to still something. Or do they refuse to help you even though they are not busy. You don't get discriminated against until you reveal your background because when someone looks at you they automatically see white. Sorry black people cant hide their color like you can hide your background.
jonazila 2 years ago
Here's an easy solution, don't go to those stores, then!
"You don't get discriminated against until you reveal your background because when someone looks at you they automatically see white."
-Not all people see color. Why don't you shop at stores owned by tolerant people or by non-"whites."
As for me, I share the Baha'i belief that we're all the same race: the Human race. People like you need to stop dividing us into "blacks" and "whites"
DoomHippie 2 years ago
I have been followed around in stores plenty of times. And have been ignored by store clerks.
Interesting you get thumbed down when you speak of the HUMAM RACE. Everyone has been brainwashed into divide and conquer mentality.
daizee106 2 years ago
Except some Jews wear religious garb, and with many Jews there is a certain look to them due to having been an isolated genetic group for some two thousand years, hence what qualifies them as a race. (You may not that Japanese people look similar to Koreans and Chinese, but they're all different).
Also, look up the concordia riots in Ottawa, protest/near lynching at York in Toronto. In my neighrbouhood people have yelled "fucking Jew" at me. Friends have been assaulted. Where's our AA?
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
Cont.
I never said it was dead, but racism has dwindled down to a point where it will continue to die on its own, and things like AA only prolong it!
Plus, you keep avoiding my main question, Why focus on the steadily decreasing racism against blacks in America, when there is TONS of discrimination, for race, religion, political affiliation, gender, and sexual orientation ALL AROUND THE WORLD. Why not focus on addressing them?
DoomHippie 2 years ago
I have addressed this point numerous times, and it is the main point many well meaning white liberals in the west miss. Racism is not teleological dwindling thanks to the universe. It is still a huge issue here, even though it isn't as bad as it was in the 1800s or 1950s or whatever.
We should of course focus on it elsewhere, but it should not make us ignore it in our own backyard. One quick example, the most amount of HUD racial discrimination complaints did not come in the 1960s but 2006.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
HUD is like any "public" system, corrupt with poorer quality and higher costs then a Free Market system.
HUD is free to discriminate as it chooses precisely because it has no competition, and pretty much has a garunteed paycheck.
HUD has many problems, but I will not try to address them all here.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
Anyway, Government Monopolies aside, there is NO DENYING that Racism is on a steady decline, and will continue to decrease.
However, I do view the increasing racism against Islam with concern, since I view Islam as one of the True Faiths.
But, we CANNOT solve this through MORE Government control! Look at your past comments. A lot of the descrimination you point out IS FROM the Government and Government Agencies like HUD. We can't fight fire with more fire. We'll only create an inferno!
DoomHippie 2 years ago
but thats not the point. While I do believe that HUD and the FHA are valuable for combatting racism, the point is that housing discrimination by race has increased or at least stayed at similar levels since the seventies as witnessed by the rise in the statistics i cited. Thus, Racism is provably not declining just by virtue of the glorious march of history. defend your assertion.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Yep. That's because it's a government-based monopoly. They're free to descriminate however they want because THEY GET PAID REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD OF A JOB THEY DO through taxation. Where, if we look at Privatized Housing, we see that discrimination is much lower then "Public" Housing, since the Free Market is driven by competition and discrimination is bad for bussiness.Government Monopolies are always Bad. HUD cannot be saved, and would be better if we moved Low Income Housing to the FreeMarket
DoomHippie 2 years ago
except this isn't the case. white families fled the private markets when blacks tried to move in. provide evidence for your assertion.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Based on the current situation of the housing market, there are currently too many houses for sale, with not enough buyers. Thus, to make money, realors would have to sell to whoever is willing to buy. And since a realtor usually does not control the homes next to the "for sale" home, why would they care if the nieghbors are unhappy? Furthermore, it is a bad time to sell, so the nieghbors can either cope with it and stay, or leave and try to sell thier house on our current market.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
there has been housing busts before, and yet these busts didn't result in a rapid reorganization of the defacto segregation imposed when racial tracking to neighborhoods was practiced by realtors.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
In the Government Monopoly sector, they aren't forced to do anything because they get paid through your taxes.
For a Free Market system, however, discrimination is bad for bussiness, and thus non-discriminatory bussinesses will succeed over discriminatory ones.
HUD and FHA will NOT work, under any circumstances, since they are Monopolies.
But, I think we have strayed far off of the original topic. Now is not the time to discuss Government Monopolies VS Free Market.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
fha is an act, it is a regulation on the housing market, not just government built housing projects. it says it is illegal to discriminate in housing based on factors such as race, age, disability etc. etc.
the argument that free markets abhor discrimination is just not true as many businesses in the south were discriminatory in hiring and sales until civil rights legislation outlawed such practices. Even today discrimination happens in free markets, see devah pager's studies at princeton.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Right, so your saying even with FHA, we still have housing discrimination. You have all the evidence for yourself, Legislation like this does NOTHING.
Why would AA work any differently.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
no, it just means that laws are broken. there are murder laws, theft laws, hit and run laws, child abandonment laws, and yet people violate those laws. but you are not addressing my main point, that the incidence of these claims proves DISCRIMINATION STILL EXISTS. you said it didn't. you are wrong.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
FOR THE LAST TIME I NEVER SAID DISCRIMINATION WAS GONE I ONLY CLAIM THAT IT IS DECLINING RAPIDLY!! STOP MAKING ME HALF TO REPEAT MYSELF!
I am frankly tired of repeating myself over and over again!
Discrimination is NOT declining among things like HUD simply because they are monopolies, and monopolies can do whatever they want.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
FHA records claims for discrimination, OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT HOUSING, it records them in the PRIVATE MARKET.
DISCRIMINATION MUST NOT BE DECLINING RAPIDLY IF SAID DISCRIMINATION IS INCREASING IN HOUSING.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Sure, it's totally okay to ignore all areas of racial discrimination to focus on the one that supports your views. Look at the whole of the issue, don't only focus on the details that support your point!
In the current housing market, there are too many houses and not enough buyers. Not even the most racist realor can afford to be discriminatory in sales during this time. They NEED every sale they can get or thier bussiness WILL die.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
listen, you said discrimination in AMERICA was decreasing a lot. I have evidence that proves it isn't. Discrimination in housing is a big deal, as almost everyone lives in some type of housing. It is the fact that white people don't want to live near minorities. If you haven't heard of white flight before, look to what happened to almost every suburb after they integrated the schools. Its not racist realtors
Please make an empirical argument to support your argument about declining racism.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Provided that racism has actually not decreased, now we're back to the question of how AA would fix this.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
if you remember, the crux of your opposition to AA was that racism is no longer an issue. so if I understand you correctly, you opposed AA when you thought racism wasn't a significant issue, and you oppose it after acknowledging it is a significant issue.
My point is that racism causes minorities to feel real disadvantage in real ways, ex: housing. we can cure such outcomes of racism with AA. The point isn't curing racists of their views, its helping racism's victims
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Why this kind of aid then? How specifically does AA help racism's victims? Wouldn't it be better to say you cannot discriminate who you sell to?
And more importantly, how many people do you know who have been turned down for a job because of thier race?
Personally, I know two, both white, turned down because there were not enough minorities. One scored #1 on the entrance test for the fire department, but alas, there were not enough black firemen.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
stop asking personal questions, anecdotes don't answer statistical questions.
AA helps by providing a defacto subsidy to minority groups. when they recieve an educational deficit in school zones by being discriminated in housing, or are not hired due to racist hiring practices AA reverses it by selecting them for education and hiring (for example).
and yes, it would be better to say that people didn't discriminate, but as there is such inequality, caused by racism, we should help its victims.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Personal experiances are important, and judging by your responce, I think it is clear that you have not experianced discrimination in hiring. On the other hand, I know of people who were denied jobs because of their race. I find it strange that you supposedly oppose discrimination based on race, but don't oppose it if it happens to whites.
Isn't that racism?
Regardless of whether it's to help people or stop discrimination, isn't that racism!
DoomHippie 2 years ago
but the thing is, as Devah Pager proved with her studies at princeton, blacks and hispanics are discriminated much more. remember, your whole argument was predicated on the fact that racism against disadvantaged minorities is minimal and declining rapidly.
DOJ statistics, studies by plenty of economists and sociologists prove that blacks are discriminated against.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
Well...
Studies are studies. They usually start with a desired result and try to get evidence for it. The same thing happens with Global Warming. Just from a quick Google search I found several reports that show the contrary. The hard part is deciding who to trust.
There are also very real statistics that show racism has decreased. Anyone who would insist that racism levels are the same or worse then in the time of Dr King (which is rather recent) is just ignorant.
DoomHippie 2 years ago
yeah, man scientific inquiry is bullshit. it never proves anything. especially if it was done at an ivy league university and thoroughly vetted by its faculty and the multiplicity of peers that reviewed the work as it passed through academic journals.
remember you didn't say that racism is less than it was in Dr. King's day. you said it was declining so rapidly today that it was a non issue, implying that it didn't affect many people today. tim wise has numbers proving you wrong.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
If skin color matters, why do asians do better than whites? Why do those from the West Indies outperform African Americans...despite being the same skin color?
jarrbear05 2 years ago
are you using this as an argument against affirmative action? it is not a skin color test, it takes into account race, nationality, ethnicity, gender, orientation, wealth, etc. etc.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago
And since women now make up almost 60% of those in college, why exactly do they still need benefits?
Actually, I would support a school taking whoever they want...as long as that school doesn't get taxpayer money. If they do, then they MUST remain color blind.
jarrbear05 2 years ago
East Asian, South Asian, West Indian, and African immigrants are already highly educated when they arrive in America so they do not have to face the challenges of being the first in their family to take advanced courses, or live in poverty stricken areas and schools. They have a history of success to turn to where too many young African Americans only know of the here and now and have not researched our own history as we can't depend on schools to teach the details.
mqf0489 2 years ago
Really? The massive influx of asians shortly before WWII were highly educated? That is incorrect. They had to face being the first in their family to take advanced courses.
And in any sense, even your argument here contradicts what your side of the debate is saying. They say that the system innately discriminates against color, and asians, West Indies, etc. show that is not the case.
The melting pot of America is so diverse that hardly anyone can track their "history". .....
jarrbear05 2 years ago
My own history is a combination of Slavak, Croatian and Polish. I wasn't taught my "own history" in school either. I was taught that of America, as were you. It does me know good to dwell on the injustices my great-grandparents suffered when being purged by communist-Russia. I make the best of what I have in America and, call me crazy, but I just don't think it's right that Jesse Jackson's kids will get more benefits than my own.
jarrbear05 2 years ago
Except Blacks are taught that our race had no culture or civilization and that the Greeks and Romans are the ideal empires. We are not taught about our successes in Africa and America ,and when we are it is only half the story. As this recession has shown just because Blacks and Latinos have a middle class doesn't mean it is well established just through one generation. While I believe socio-economic status should play the leading role in determining who benefits race still matters.
mqf0489 2 years ago
Because history is written by the winners.
ThousanWhite 2 years ago
Actually it's people only read the parts of history that they like, but the truth is out there.
mqf0489 2 years ago
Why does she give the example of George Bush, are you fucking kidding me?
She assumes that every white/asian/jewish family is rich enough to enroll their kids in top Universities, and that these "lazy kids" are then allowed to succeed without much effort.
However, a very SMALL percentage of the U.S. actually has the wealth and/or power to do that, around 1% of the U.S.
I understand that Blacks have gone through a lot, but so have Jews, and they don't benefit from AA.
andyx1205 2 years ago
She uses George Bush b/c legacy students may be part of the top 1% of the U.S. population, but they make up a far larger percentage of students at elite colleges and college prep schools. Some schools have as many as 33% of their student body coming from legacy. Elite colleges usually only have about 30% of students even applying for financial aid.
Jews may benefit from AA at some schools. It's not just Blacks who benefit.
mqf0489 2 years ago 6
Why do you believe Obama was admitted into those competitive universities with such a poor academic record?
Who was oppressed most, (1) Obama, (2) his Irish/American mother or (3) Obamas Kenyan father? Did Kenyans or the Irish suffer most from colonial occupation and oppression?
Should the children of foreign nationals get racial preferences at all, especially since Obamas East African father holds little genetic information in common with American blacks, who are West Africans?
islandmuffin 1 year ago
@islandmuffin , you're a white man aren't you? WHAT A SURPRISE!!!!
joelbattle 1 year ago
Would you rid the US of legacy students in favor of Obama, who was given AA privileges without proven merit?
Obamas mediocre grades at Occidental College did not merit admission into Colombia, where his mediocre grades should have precluded admittance to Harvard Law School, where he was artificially thrust to the lead the Harvard Law Review, where he became the first leader NOT to write editorial pieces.
islandmuffin 1 year ago
@mqf0489
So 2 wrongs makes a right?
so are people against affirmative action for alumni perks?
thats making a big assumption
cause i'm STRONGLY against both
not all whites are rich
benympls 1 year ago
Am I am not sure where you get your stats from but the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action are white women and Jews. But because America is a racialized society people only see things in black and white and thus affirmative action became a black thing. Sad when you know not all the facts and you think you do.
tsarabo 2 years ago
It benefits women yes but it does NOT benefit Jews. Jews don't need AA anyways, seeing as how Ashkenazi Jews (european jews) have the highest average IQ.
andyx1205 2 years ago
I don't know where you're getting that stat from.
To my knowledge no test of average, race based IQ's has even been shown to hold any kind of water.
I think you're letting prejudice take hold there.
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
No, Jews really don't get AA.
Go look for it, it isn't there. Ask Jews about it, they'll tell you there is none.
Nothing at all available to us in the states or in Canada.
If there was, maybe a Jewish friend of mine wouldn't have been bumped from getting a harvard position so they could admit a slightly less qualified black woman (he spoke with the admitting professor after).
No AA for Jews... unless you're talking about Jewish religious schools. Then yeah... they tend to prefer Jews ;)
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
Jewish people are rapidly assimilating into patterns of identifying themselves as "White Jews." I did an extensive research project on it last semester for my sociology research methods class...
B3v317 2 years ago
I'm sure you did. Did you also notice that when people immigrate somewhere (at least from certain backgrounds, most notably European or Japanese) they want to assimilate, get involved and be PART of the community. It's called active citizenship. The idea of being an outsider isn't a terribly pleasing one.
Next point. Does it matter what they refer to themselves as? Racism comes from without, directed at the group. Blacks could identify as white but that won't end the discrimination, will it?
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
Or is it that in a white majority country the education system is being taught the history of its fore bearers, and that happens to be European history and the ancient Greeks and Romans.
My bet is that in black dominated countries the education focuses on black history, and any white kid who asks "what about white accomplishments in history" is told to shut up.
People forget that we do live in a white majority country. Sucks for minorities (including myself), but I accept I'm on whitey's turf.
Elrohir1985 2 years ago
Not for to much long in a few years it will be a mostly non-white country.
soloboricua 2 years ago
I see you only addressed asian immigrants and still lump them all together. It is still a fact that east asians and south asians come to america with more education than southeast asians and you see the results in achievement. Also if you look at America's history other people of color were discriminated against but African Americans were stilled considered the lowest including below Africans. If you've read Up From Slavery you know that is true.
mqf0489 2 years ago
What do you mean by "better" and "outperform"?
ThousanWhite 2 years ago
remember you continue to assert a statistical argument, that racism has dwindled rapidly and is not an issue for minorities. no where have you cited anything to that effect whereas i have cited both tim wise, department of justice statistics, and devah pager's work regarding hiring practices.
I enjoy this debate but you ought to provide some broader proof than specific anecdotes if you want to prove your point.
ZANGZANGDANZ 2 years ago