Jazz could you find footage of the 2001 NCAA 4X1 MEN'S FINAL TRYING TO FIND OUT WHO WAS THE ANCHOR FOR FLORIDA A&M THAT YEAR JUST CURIOUS THAT'S ALL THANKS.
Gosh, I watched this again and I'd wager that the passes were the WORST part of LSU's race. There wasn't one smooth handoff there. Davis just tore everybody up on first leg, and everybody else held the lead.
@jbrumundsmith The passes weren't great because they were pretty. They were great because they took place late in the exchange zone. The second pass was the smoothest looking but it was actually the slowest. Running fast 4x100 times is all about stretching the zone.
@jazzcyclist I'd love to hear your logic behind that. I don't expect much, because there basically is no logic behind it. If your lead-off man is your slowest, you don't want him running 109 meters. You want him running 91 meters. Therefore, handing off EARLY is the best way to execute that handoff. Likewise, most teams have one of their two fastest people on anchor leg, which means that person certainly wants to get the baton EARLY in the zone.
@jbrumundsmith How silly can you be? It takes 50-60 meters for a world-class sprinter to reach top speed. Do you have any idea how slow elite sprineters are moving 10 meters into their acceleration. The idea is to have the baton slow down as little as possible, by making the exchange later in the zone when they're closer to top spped. You obviously haven't been around the sport for very long. Now on the high school level, when a 12.0 guy might hand off to a 10.6 guy, you might have a point.
@jazzcyclist Sorry but you're still wrong. Obviously getting up to speed in 10 meters is difficult, which is why even the early exchanges aren't made until about five meters into the 20 meter zone. But to say that EVERYBODY should hand off late in the zone is just idiotic. People also reach their top speed at around 60-70m and are then slowing down. So you have an athlete coming in who is almost assuredly slowing down. And you want that athlete running as far as possible into the zone?
@jbrumundsmith You obviously have never seen the 10-meter splits of a typical elite sprinter, because if you had, you would know that even with deceleration, the incoming runner at 100-110 meters is still moving faster than the outgoing runner at 10-20 meters. Look at what the elite college teams do. Go talk to some elite coaches when you have a chance, like Pat Henry, Mike Holloway or Dennis Shaver. Look at this video again, paying particular attention to LSU and Tennesee at exchanges 1 and 3.
@jazzcyclist Actually I have seen the splits. The splits from 20m-30m are always just about the same as the splits from 90m-100m. However, since it's obviously optimal for people to start from the beginning of the acceleration zone, if you want them handing off at the very end that means they are handing off after running almost 130 meters. Since times start creeping up after around 60 or 70m, we can only assume they keep going up from 100m-130m. But that's talking about mere hundredths.
@jbrumundsmith In addition, when Jamaica set the world record of 37.10, they all caught the stick at the middle of the zone. One race doesn't prove the entire strategy wrong though. The original point is that the handoffs DID NOT win this relay for LSU, and, in fact, almost cost them 10 points because Brazell clearly caught the last handoff too late. Any competent official should have DQed them. Just because handoffs are made late in the zone DOES NOT mean they are good handoffs.
@jbrumundsmith If you make the pass at the beginning of the zone, the outgoing runner will have only run 10 meters without the benefit of starting blocks, which means he will be running significantly slower than the incoming runner. Even elite sprinters (eg. Bolt, Powell, Gay, etc.) take nearly 2 seconds to cover the first 10 meters WITH starting blocks. Did you notice how much ground LSU gained on the first exchange in this video by making the pass late instead of early?
@jazzcyclist Are you watching the same video? Walter Davis blew the living hell out of everybody on the first leg. That's why they had the big lead. And why were all the LSU guys running with their hands up for five or six strides if they were SUPPOSED to catch the baton later in the zone? Every one of those handoffs would have been better if made right as the outgoing runner put out his hand...which happened in the MIDDLE OF THE ZONE! Why are you refusing to bend under VIDEO EVIDENCE?!!!
@jbrumundsmith Now you're hedging. First you said the passes should be made at the beginning of the zone, now you're saying the middle. I'm saying you should make the pass as late as possible - 15 to 20 meters into the zone. Just look at where LSU is in relation to Tennessee going into the zone and look where they came out. They gained 2 meters just by making the pass late rather than early. And nobody waits until the very end of the zone to put their hand up, because the incoming needs a target
@jazzcyclist Oh my gosh, NO THEY DON'T! Just because a pass is late in the zone doesn't mean it was a good pass! As I've mentioned before, in the WORLD RECORD 4x100m, Jamaica made all their passes in the middle of the zone. You cannot argue that every single one of those LSU exchanges were ENHANCED by having the outgoing athlete run for five strides with his arm behind him. That's slowing him down. Earlier handoffs would have helped that team tremendously. As they were, LSU should've DQed!
@jbrumundsmith I never said that putting their arms back prematurely made them run faster. Obviously, the later you put your arm back, the faster you will accelerate. But I know for a fact that at the elite level, the later the pass, the faster the time. Jamaica would have run mid-36 is they weren't so conservative in their passing. Who ever told you that passes should be made at the beginning of the zone, when the outgoing runner has only had 10 meters to accelerate, is clueless.
@jbrumundsmith You still haven't answered my question about what happened on the first exchange between LSU and Tennessee. And I'm not talking about Davis' run, I'm talking about the exchange itself. What caused LSU to gain so much ground in the exchange zone? Also, what makes you think you know more about relay running that Pat Henry, Mike Holloway and Dennis Shaver?
@jazzcyclist Simple, LSU's original pass was a tad better because they had better extension, not due to position in the zone. And where do Pat Henry, Mike Holloway and Dennis Shaver say anything like, "At all costs, hand off late in the exchange zone!" or "Regardless of whatever else happens, a late pass is ALWAYS best!" They never say this. In fact, Pat Henry (LSU's then-coach) clearly wanted his athletes handing off in the MIDDLE of the zone! That's when his athletes had their hands back.
@jbrumundsmith You simply don't know what you're talking about. I know for a FACT what those coaches preach. Do you know the difference between specualtion and fact? It would be moronoc for the runners to wait until the very end of the zone to provide a target. The incoming runner needs a stationary target to focus on. Anyway, even middle-of-zone exchanges are faster than start-of-zone exhanges, which what you've been advocating. Again I ask, who told you that start-of-zone passes were faster?
@jazzcyclist What really is the point of me arguing with a person who believe that AT THE COST OF ALL ELSE, a late-zone handoff is ALWAYS best, who also believes that putting your hand back for FIVE STEPS is a great way to catch a handoff? I never once said that early-zone handoffs are best. Most good handoffs occur from the middle-to-end of the zone. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that JUST BECAUSE a handoff is made at the end of the zone DOES NOT necessarily make it a good one.
@jbrumundsmith Here's what you posted earlier: "Therefore, handing off EARLY is the best way to execute that handoff." Also I never said "putting your hand back for FIVE STEPS is a great way to catch a handoff". You deny you own words while misquoting my words. What I'm saying is that handoffs can be botched no matter where they take place, but with all things being equal and the passes smoothely executed, LATE BATON PASSES ALWAYS PRODUCE FASTER TIMES THAN EARLY BATON PASSES AT THE ELITE LEVEL.
@jazzcyclist You still don't get it. Handing off late is not the end-all, be-all. If LSU had handed off earlier in this race, like say, WHEN THE GUYS FIRST PUT THEIR HANDS BACK, they would have run a faster time. Are you willing to admit that just because a handoff is late does not necessarily make it a good handoff? There are many other aspects that you are choosing to ignore. The fact that you bolded thta late baton passes ALWAYS produce the faster times proves your idiocy. Good Lord.
And the last pass was clearly out of the zone. Technically, LSU should have been DQed, which would have cost them the NCAA team title. That was a hell of a team though.
Oh, and they also ran better in the prelims (38.32) than in the finals (38.48).
I am looking for a copy of the 2003 and 2004 world indoor 4x400m relay race. Please let me know if you have or know someone who might have it. Thanks.
interesting that the video's focus is on passing. I am def. an LSU fan but you can clearly see that the passes were not that great.
The first pass, he had to reach and almost missed, and the last pass in slow mo, you can see bennie reaching around for it, not to mention coley stepping out of the lane more than two times...if judges were allowed to review video in the ncaa, lsu would would have been disqualified for that, and the time wouldn't matter anyway.
The reason why they ran so fast is because the exchanges were made late in the zone, and therefore the baton didn't slow down. Every coach would take passes like the first one if they were guaranteed that the runners could connect every time without running out the zone or dropping the baton. LSU gained two meters on Tennessee on that first pass.
LSU should have bee disqualified because at 1:52-1:59, the LSU runner was ALL in the next lane.... that should have been a disqualification!
Clemsonshawty 6 months ago
@Clemsonshawty I was just thinking that too!
MerkabaStar 5 months ago
wow the handoffs wernt even that good. its just coz lsu had multi talented athletetes...
IceUlquiorra 7 months ago
Jazz could you find footage of the 2001 NCAA 4X1 MEN'S FINAL TRYING TO FIND OUT WHO WAS THE ANCHOR FOR FLORIDA A&M THAT YEAR JUST CURIOUS THAT'S ALL THANKS.
dal4018 8 months ago
Comment removed
dal4018 8 months ago
Gosh, I watched this again and I'd wager that the passes were the WORST part of LSU's race. There wasn't one smooth handoff there. Davis just tore everybody up on first leg, and everybody else held the lead.
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith The passes weren't great because they were pretty. They were great because they took place late in the exchange zone. The second pass was the smoothest looking but it was actually the slowest. Running fast 4x100 times is all about stretching the zone.
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist I'd love to hear your logic behind that. I don't expect much, because there basically is no logic behind it. If your lead-off man is your slowest, you don't want him running 109 meters. You want him running 91 meters. Therefore, handing off EARLY is the best way to execute that handoff. Likewise, most teams have one of their two fastest people on anchor leg, which means that person certainly wants to get the baton EARLY in the zone.
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith How silly can you be? It takes 50-60 meters for a world-class sprinter to reach top speed. Do you have any idea how slow elite sprineters are moving 10 meters into their acceleration. The idea is to have the baton slow down as little as possible, by making the exchange later in the zone when they're closer to top spped. You obviously haven't been around the sport for very long. Now on the high school level, when a 12.0 guy might hand off to a 10.6 guy, you might have a point.
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist Sorry but you're still wrong. Obviously getting up to speed in 10 meters is difficult, which is why even the early exchanges aren't made until about five meters into the 20 meter zone. But to say that EVERYBODY should hand off late in the zone is just idiotic. People also reach their top speed at around 60-70m and are then slowing down. So you have an athlete coming in who is almost assuredly slowing down. And you want that athlete running as far as possible into the zone?
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith You obviously have never seen the 10-meter splits of a typical elite sprinter, because if you had, you would know that even with deceleration, the incoming runner at 100-110 meters is still moving faster than the outgoing runner at 10-20 meters. Look at what the elite college teams do. Go talk to some elite coaches when you have a chance, like Pat Henry, Mike Holloway or Dennis Shaver. Look at this video again, paying particular attention to LSU and Tennesee at exchanges 1 and 3.
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist Actually I have seen the splits. The splits from 20m-30m are always just about the same as the splits from 90m-100m. However, since it's obviously optimal for people to start from the beginning of the acceleration zone, if you want them handing off at the very end that means they are handing off after running almost 130 meters. Since times start creeping up after around 60 or 70m, we can only assume they keep going up from 100m-130m. But that's talking about mere hundredths.
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith In addition, when Jamaica set the world record of 37.10, they all caught the stick at the middle of the zone. One race doesn't prove the entire strategy wrong though. The original point is that the handoffs DID NOT win this relay for LSU, and, in fact, almost cost them 10 points because Brazell clearly caught the last handoff too late. Any competent official should have DQed them. Just because handoffs are made late in the zone DOES NOT mean they are good handoffs.
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith If you make the pass at the beginning of the zone, the outgoing runner will have only run 10 meters without the benefit of starting blocks, which means he will be running significantly slower than the incoming runner. Even elite sprinters (eg. Bolt, Powell, Gay, etc.) take nearly 2 seconds to cover the first 10 meters WITH starting blocks. Did you notice how much ground LSU gained on the first exchange in this video by making the pass late instead of early?
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist Are you watching the same video? Walter Davis blew the living hell out of everybody on the first leg. That's why they had the big lead. And why were all the LSU guys running with their hands up for five or six strides if they were SUPPOSED to catch the baton later in the zone? Every one of those handoffs would have been better if made right as the outgoing runner put out his hand...which happened in the MIDDLE OF THE ZONE! Why are you refusing to bend under VIDEO EVIDENCE?!!!
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith Now you're hedging. First you said the passes should be made at the beginning of the zone, now you're saying the middle. I'm saying you should make the pass as late as possible - 15 to 20 meters into the zone. Just look at where LSU is in relation to Tennessee going into the zone and look where they came out. They gained 2 meters just by making the pass late rather than early. And nobody waits until the very end of the zone to put their hand up, because the incoming needs a target
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith Late passes = Faster times. If you don't believe me, ask any of the three experts I mentioned earlier.
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist Oh my gosh, NO THEY DON'T! Just because a pass is late in the zone doesn't mean it was a good pass! As I've mentioned before, in the WORLD RECORD 4x100m, Jamaica made all their passes in the middle of the zone. You cannot argue that every single one of those LSU exchanges were ENHANCED by having the outgoing athlete run for five strides with his arm behind him. That's slowing him down. Earlier handoffs would have helped that team tremendously. As they were, LSU should've DQed!
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith I never said that putting their arms back prematurely made them run faster. Obviously, the later you put your arm back, the faster you will accelerate. But I know for a fact that at the elite level, the later the pass, the faster the time. Jamaica would have run mid-36 is they weren't so conservative in their passing. Who ever told you that passes should be made at the beginning of the zone, when the outgoing runner has only had 10 meters to accelerate, is clueless.
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith You still haven't answered my question about what happened on the first exchange between LSU and Tennessee. And I'm not talking about Davis' run, I'm talking about the exchange itself. What caused LSU to gain so much ground in the exchange zone? Also, what makes you think you know more about relay running that Pat Henry, Mike Holloway and Dennis Shaver?
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist Simple, LSU's original pass was a tad better because they had better extension, not due to position in the zone. And where do Pat Henry, Mike Holloway and Dennis Shaver say anything like, "At all costs, hand off late in the exchange zone!" or "Regardless of whatever else happens, a late pass is ALWAYS best!" They never say this. In fact, Pat Henry (LSU's then-coach) clearly wanted his athletes handing off in the MIDDLE of the zone! That's when his athletes had their hands back.
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith You simply don't know what you're talking about. I know for a FACT what those coaches preach. Do you know the difference between specualtion and fact? It would be moronoc for the runners to wait until the very end of the zone to provide a target. The incoming runner needs a stationary target to focus on. Anyway, even middle-of-zone exchanges are faster than start-of-zone exhanges, which what you've been advocating. Again I ask, who told you that start-of-zone passes were faster?
jazzcyclist 9 months ago
@jazzcyclist What really is the point of me arguing with a person who believe that AT THE COST OF ALL ELSE, a late-zone handoff is ALWAYS best, who also believes that putting your hand back for FIVE STEPS is a great way to catch a handoff? I never once said that early-zone handoffs are best. Most good handoffs occur from the middle-to-end of the zone. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that JUST BECAUSE a handoff is made at the end of the zone DOES NOT necessarily make it a good one.
jbrumundsmith 9 months ago
@jbrumundsmith Here's what you posted earlier: "Therefore, handing off EARLY is the best way to execute that handoff." Also I never said "putting your hand back for FIVE STEPS is a great way to catch a handoff". You deny you own words while misquoting my words. What I'm saying is that handoffs can be botched no matter where they take place, but with all things being equal and the passes smoothely executed, LATE BATON PASSES ALWAYS PRODUCE FASTER TIMES THAN EARLY BATON PASSES AT THE ELITE LEVEL.
jazzcyclist 8 months ago
@jazzcyclist You still don't get it. Handing off late is not the end-all, be-all. If LSU had handed off earlier in this race, like say, WHEN THE GUYS FIRST PUT THEIR HANDS BACK, they would have run a faster time. Are you willing to admit that just because a handoff is late does not necessarily make it a good handoff? There are many other aspects that you are choosing to ignore. The fact that you bolded thta late baton passes ALWAYS produce the faster times proves your idiocy. Good Lord.
jbrumundsmith 8 months ago
Great Exchanges!
ViggoMortensenisgay 10 months ago
thats DQ he took that Baton way to late
tallbr0 11 months ago
Runner went out of his lane at the 3rd exchange, and also they took the baton past the zone! Should have been a DQ, but oh well. LOL.
datboylance 1 year ago
last exchange clearly out of the zone, must be nice to have home field officiating!
jc2fly 1 year ago
DQ?
Trackmaster14 1 year ago 8
dam look how sexy that 3rd leg was! all 3 breakin stagger and side by side, it musta been hell in there
fiestyhamster 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
And the last pass was clearly out of the zone. Technically, LSU should have been DQed, which would have cost them the NCAA team title. That was a hell of a team though.
Oh, and they also ran better in the prelims (38.32) than in the finals (38.48).
jbrumundsmith 1 year ago
Comment removed
jbrumundsmith 1 year ago
Good thing they didnt get dq'd for their 3rd leg being all over the inside lane.
EntrepreneurLoveJr 1 year ago
2nd exchange wasn't that good
yogurt705 2 years ago
haha almost missed that shit on the last exchange, that would suck to see the winning team lose cuz of a zone
sharktrinity 2 years ago
I am looking for a copy of the 2003 and 2004 world indoor 4x400m relay race. Please let me know if you have or know someone who might have it. Thanks.
lueroy 2 years ago
interesting that the video's focus is on passing. I am def. an LSU fan but you can clearly see that the passes were not that great.
The first pass, he had to reach and almost missed, and the last pass in slow mo, you can see bennie reaching around for it, not to mention coley stepping out of the lane more than two times...if judges were allowed to review video in the ncaa, lsu would would have been disqualified for that, and the time wouldn't matter anyway.
vintagesoul21 3 years ago 9
The reason why they ran so fast is because the exchanges were made late in the zone, and therefore the baton didn't slow down. Every coach would take passes like the first one if they were guaranteed that the runners could connect every time without running out the zone or dropping the baton. LSU gained two meters on Tennessee on that first pass.
jazzcyclist 3 years ago
thanks
catfan06 3 years ago
Whats the name of the music?
catfan06 3 years ago
Carmina Burana, scenic cantata by Carl Orff
jazzcyclist 3 years ago