Jehovah's first creation was Jesus. When Jehovah wanted to create the world, he enlisted Jesus' help. Wouldn't you want to build something absolutely amazing with your son?
I had it explained to me like this, Like you I was confused about it. A builder is developing a site to put a house on it. In the front yard it has the Builders name on a sign John Scott. Its johns lot, he owns it when the house is purchased it is purchased from John. But the guy that built the home and did the works name is Mike. Through Jesus all things were created, but the credit goes to his father, as with the example I gave u. Jesus himself many times credits his father not himself. hmmm
PS: you said something in your video. @ time 1:38. You said that Jesus claimed he was god. Trust me, i've looked for him CLAIMING to be god but, he never did. Never.
PPS: About my answer to your question. NOTE: that the speaker gave credit to God Jehovah for creating all things. This speaker was Christ.
In conclusion, the speaker of Proverbs 8 is not Solomon but Jesus Christ, the first born of all creation. Within chapter 8 Christ mentions that he was created long before Jehovah's works. He gives credit to Jehovah within these verses (26-29) Jesus Christ was Jehovah's master worker, working beside him. Jehovah could also be the creator of everything while using Jesus as worker.
Read Proverbs 8:26-29 - Within these scriptures the speaker (Jesus Christ) says "HE" this HE is Jehovah God.
Also within these verses we could also see exactly what the 'works of old,' really are.
The key words that stand out now are:
WHILE AS YET HE had not made the earth...When HE prepared the heavens...when HE set a compass upon...when HE established the clouds..when HE strengthened the...when HE gave to the sea his decree..when HE appointed the
You mentioned Isaiah 45:18. This calls Jehovah creator of the Heavens, former of the Earth, the maker of it etc...
Col 1:16 mentions 'him' which is obviously Christ Jesus. It says that by means of him all things were created, and it semi describes what they are.
These two verses DO NOT contradict themselves within our beliefs. Let the bible explain. Once again i'll invite you to read Proverbs 8, but this time we'll slow it down a bit and squeeze the scriptures to get to the precious treasure.
* The abbreviations before are the Different Bible Versions the quotes were taken from.
Cont...
Chapter 8 verse 22 of Proverbs in many different version of the bible give us a very clear picture of who was created in the beginning before all other things and by whom. Jehovah created Christ Jesus before all other thing. That is why he alone is called "Firstborn; Son of God, Only Begotten."
Lets continue reading Chapter 8. Verses 23- 29 describes the works of Jehovah.
Jehovah's works of old are described in verses 23 - 29. This speaker of Chapter 8 lived with Jehovah God BEFORE everything. The first born of his creation. (Col 1:15; Heb 1:6;) possessed me at the -21KJV Jehovah possessed me in the beginning -ASV The Lord formed and brought me forth -AMP The LORD created me at the beginning -CEB beginning, the LORD created me -CEV footnotes Jehovah possessed me -DARBY The LORD made me... beginning -ERV The Lord created me first of all -GNT From Diff. Bibles
The word LORD is capitalized because this title replaced a name.
" In many translations of the Bible, when the word "LORD" is in all capitals, it signifies that the word represents the tetragrammaton.[8]" (Wikipedia, just Google: Why is lord and god capitalized?, and Google: Tetragammaton.) In Short, the Name that was replaced was Jehovah.
Verse 22 then reads with more feeling now.
"The LORD (or Jehovah) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." What is his 'works?'
Continuing with verse 16, it reads: "By me princes rule, and nobles,(part b) even all the judges of the earth." Part B also points away from Solomon. Read verses 17 - 21, read them over and over, if you know the Bible well you'll know who is speaking in Chapter 8 of Proverbs by now.
Special Note on verse 22, which reads: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Why is the word LORD capitalized? This deserves special consideration.....cont.
PS: I'm not here to prove you wrong, all i'm here to do is to point you a supporting text.
Continue reading Proverbs, as you continue reading it would seem that verses 13,14 can relate perfectly with Solomon. BUT, verse 15 does NOT fit with Solomon's history. Solomon's kingdom, Israel, was in its second King, and yet the Kingdom of Israel was not big enough to appoint vassal king. "By me kings reign," does not fit with Solomon, if not with him then who?
Well, i'll try to answer your question. Open your bible to Proverbs Chapter 8 lets begin from verse 12. A special note to remember is that King Solomon wrote the book of Proverbs. This is a important note to remember.
Verse 12 reads: "i wisdom dwell with prudence..." (KJV) Nothing Really stands out from these texts other than the fact that and ability(wisdom) speaks in first person. Most of Chapter 8 is spoken like a dialog, somebody is speaking here. That much we can gather at first glance
Also challenge this.. Deuteronomy 18:20-22. JW’s own materials declare they are God’s prophet, so JW cannot respond no, they are forced to admit to the prophethood of the Watch Tower Organization
read colloassians 1:15 it says jesus was the IMAGE of the invisible God not God and if you look in colloassians 1:3 it say God the Father of our lord Jesus Christ.. Jesus can't be his own father.. and the bible says lets make man in OUR image not my image and Jesus is called the son of man and the bible says the son of man is not equal to God
into being? Fact you cant make something out of nothing so where has God come from and personally the bible is a big book of stories and its purpose was to create control.
@Bellerspitts Thats what the WatchTower wants you to do. The WT doesnt want you to know the truth. Why not study the bible and ONLY the bible? Gods true words. The truth sets you free my friend, and not be scared because Jesus said IT. IS. DONE
Does GOD also pray? Does GOD also die? Does GOD also get baptised? Who can resurrect GOD? GOD said "I am here to do the will of that who sent me" does this make any sense? Satan said to GOD, "if you are The Son of GOD, jump down the cliff and GOD will send his angels to catch you" any sense? GOD said, "why are you calling me good, nobody is good except GOD" any sense here? GOD said, "I dont know the time, only GOD knows the time" any sense?
Hello there, i am an 11 year old Jehovah Witness myself, and i dislike seeing my religion being basically pin-pointed on Youtube. As already stated in comments yes you should definitely read the scripture in the bible or even so look it up... John 17:1-3, and definitely tell us what your opinion is. If you dont believe we preach the truth, you must believe that when jehovah decides to end this system, all the people who have turned there back to jehovah and the evil ones will be destroyed! Bye
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD(Jehovah), and against his anointed(Jesus). Psalm.2:2
The kings of the earth take their stand, and the rulers gather together against the LORD, and against His Christ. Acts.4:26 - Jesus is the Christ of the LORD!!
The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the GOD of our forefathers has glorified His servant, Jesus. Acts.3:13
The Almighty Father(Yahweh) is the true GOD(Most High), not Jesus!!
@fatmouse33: I know where you are going with this I've heard it before, but you folks never use the scriptures as a unit. You HAVE to include John 17:4,and 5. 4 “I glorified You on the earth... 5 Now, Father, glorify ME TOGETHER WITH Yourself, with the glory which I HAD with You before the world was." Jesus had Glory not as an angel, Hebrews 1 it proves he could not have been an angel, but as God the Son. Without these verses you are just cherry picking scriptures to prove you position.
I'll do the JW's one simple favor. What about the holy spirit? Where does that come into the scriptures?... You may find you have yourself a duality at best my friend not a trinity... Having said that Jehovah is not their God, the Watch Tower is their God, I've seen their 'appointed' men become God to others, they destroy families. Not intentionally, many think they're quasi marriage/anger management/psychologist, counselors...
Good one! I'm a former JW, I appreciate your open mindedness!It matters not if they convince you to they're way of thinking! I feel either may or may not be correct, and that religion itself is detrimental.But JW's more so, biblicaly correct or not. Look at some of the more sincere heartfelt stories of ex JW's. I'm one of them, I don't speak against them because they are just the current victims as I was. But many video's of ourselves are on here for support of ourselves and other ex JW's.
Frank Lloyd Wright was an Architect. Anything designed by him is referred to as Built by him---but he never lifted a hammer--he had a master builder/contractor that worked under him...God is an Architect---Scripture calls Jesus his Master builder. Here's one for ya -- what so-called Christian religion refuses to support the troups?? Jesus refused! If you support the troups in any way--you are not Christian. "But lord!!!! I did so much in your name!!!!--get away from me wicked people"
@stuicide1 Just give me one scripture that says, Jesus his Master builder. Just what I thought YOU can't find it. Where do you get the twisted quotes? Like this one "But lord!!!! I did so much in your name!!!!--get away from me wicked people" It reads nothing like that. If you quoted it right you would understand. That scripture is about WORKS!! You don't get salvation thru works. Please don't comment on this site till you have read the Bible a few dozen times.
@stuicide1 You said, "'BELIEVE' in Jesus do you?? So does Satan! I only believe he was a man not God!!! The Scriptures you gave don't apply. Proverbs 8:22-36 Isn't about Jesus it's about the Son of God (Spirit) not a man. Matt. 7:22,23 is about "works only" without faith. James 2:17 says, faith needs works. Go back to the Bible and read it 20 or 30 times then you will be ready to correct others. Now, If you want to learn I here for you. If You want to debate, come up with some good scriptures
@stuicide1 : So this is supposed to be the way to tell how to get saved, by "not supporting 'the troops???" Please tell me in whose name are we saved, and how?
For the one whom GOD has sent speaks the words of GOD: for GOD gives the Spirit without limit. John.3:34
Jesus said, I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than He that sent him. John.13:16
Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I have not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. John.7:28
The true GOD is the Father(Yahweh). He is the GOD of Jesus!!
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of GOD among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD did by him in the midst of you. Acts.2:22
GOD exalted him(Jesus) to his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts.5:31
GOD anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for GOD was with him. Acts.10:38
Here's one for the NWT. Every reference in the New Testament to a scripture in the old Testament, refered to Jesus as Lord. However in the old testament, that had been changed to the name used by WT for GOD. In that case Jesus would be Jehovah.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
@CaptainArrrgh Jesus became Christ only after water baptism, nobody who wrote about his divinity in the New Testament would have mentioned the name after He died>>> Just like the disciples of Jesus, they didn't understand the full teaching of Jesus, saying things like "ye of little faith" "do you not understand" Mat 15:16,17 Mark 4:12 Mark 7:188:17,21 Luke 8:10 John 8:43 Act 28:26 etc. It is clear that Jesus couldn't get them to completely understand. They worshiped the messenger. >> Continue
@questioneverything2 Luke 24:50-53 Acts 1:9-11 Would you agree that this happened after He died? Surely those 2 angels knew better than to call him by the wrong name.
@questioneverything2 Acts 4:10-12, Romans 1:1-4, Romans 1:18, 24-32, John 5:22, Romans 6:9,10, Romans 8:34, They kept saying it. And it was after it all happened that they wrote it. After he gave them the Spirit, which reminded and guided them. John 14:16,17, John 7:38,39, John 14:26, Ephesians 1:17-19, I might concur that Christ became Jesus at birth, rather than that Jesus became Christ at baptism.
@questioneverything2: That's just what the first century Gnostic's believed, but it was not what true first century Christians believed. Like Irenaeus, Poloycarp, Ignatius and others. They argued against exactly what you are saying as heresy. If you believe it you are one as well.
@abbyguy Sorry, you misunderstood me, I never said the Son wasn't part of the Trinity or that the Son wasn't God. Only that Jesus wasn't God any more than you or I.
What scriptures can you use to defend this position? Again that IS what the Gnostic's posited, and what early church fathers railed against. It's not scriptural, sorry.
@CaptainArrrgh Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus said, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee?? I saw thee under the fig tree?? believest thou?? thou shalt see greater things than these. Jesus was shocked that because He saw him under the tree, Nathanael called him the Son of God. This is Worshiping the messenger.
@questioneverything2 Yes I suppose that would explain why a person would never get that impression just by reading what they wrote. And maybe this is why: John 14:26
@questioneverything2 Messenger? I had been thinking He was the message all this time. By messenger, do you mean angel? They are synonymous words aren't they?
@CaptainArrrgh Luke 24:50-53 Identifies Christ not Jesus. Acts 1:9-11 uses the name Jesus. However as you commented below, " We contain Christ when we ask Him to come into our heart." are you implying that Christ's physical body is contained within us? Or the Spirit of Christ is contained with in us? You have shown me 1 scripture saying Jesus' body went 2 heaven I have shown U many scriptures where Jesus isn't the Son of God. Why do you hold fast to the one scripture while rejecting the many?
@questioneverything2 Actually every book in the New Testament identifies Christ as Jesus. If Jesus was just a regular guy til John the Baptist baptized Him(needlessly by John's opinion) then the sacrifice of His life wouldn't have been the same. It would have been a sinful man. And furthermore, if the Apostles who wrote the Gospels under direction of the HG breathed right out of Jesus' mouth, were mistaken, there was still Paul who didn't meet him til after Assent. .
@questioneverything2 If you're right, these guys are way off, but I don't think so: John 1:14, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 John 1:2, 1 John 2:23, 1 John 4:15, 1 John 5:1, 2 John 1:7 . If only they had known Jesus didn't mean for them to think all this, maybe they wouldn't have had to be on the run all that time, right?
@CaptainArrrgh I could go on all day correcting your understanding of the scriptures. 1 John 1:2, eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us. It is with the Father, he is with eternal life. you are worshiping the manifestation, the graven image. The Father is the source of all, His creation is the Son that anoints the body temple, that temple is what you worship. Flesh and blood. God is Spirit worship Him in spirit.
@questioneverything2 Well maybe you could correct these too: John 14:7-10, John 10:30, John 14:11, John 10:37-38, Matthew 27:43, John 17:11, John 10:31-33, John 17:5, John 17:10, Mark 14:61b-62, Luke 22:66-70, Daniel 7:13-14, John 14:31, John 17:12, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 9:6-7
@CaptainArrrgh Found another scripture; showing Jesus is the lamb, the anointed, the temple of God not the Son of God. Tell me what you think.Mal.3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me(John): and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple (after the way is prepared by John, God shell come to the body temple), even the messenger (servant Jesus) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
@CaptainArrrgh You never addressed my point on how John the Baptist could baptize Jesus with the Holy Spirit when only the Son of God could do that? If John could only baptize with water. Then who baptized Jesus with the Holy Spirit? It could only be the Son of God that baptized Jesus as He entered the temple body of Jesus. STOP FIGHTING THE SCRIPTURES.
@questioneverything2 What point? John the Baptist really only had to be there to fulfill a prophesy. Jesus was already Christ. And being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't make a person Christ. John had it, and wasn't Him. They transferred it by laying on of hands in Acts. However, I can see you're beyond listening since the adoptionist dogma clouds things for you.
@CaptainArrrgh Dogma? From where? I have no preconceived Ideas on the Bible. My parents never took me to church, I only read the Bible as Jesus instructed us, as a child with no doctrine, Dogma or church to mislead me. What about you?
@questioneverything2 Well I read the Bible every day, and sometimes go years without going to a church. perhaps you feel that biases my perspective. And I would have to say it might.
@CaptainArrrgh You say,"Jesus was already Christ. Lets go by the Bible: [Christ=Anointed one] You say, Jesus was already Anointed. When was He anointed? What was the anointing of the Spirit that remained w/ Jesus that John saw? Extra God energy? If Jesus was born God then He has no clue what it is like to be a Man, because he had all the faith in Himself. Yet, we are suppose to have faith like Jesus? LOL How unfair to expect something from us that God couldn't or wouldn't do.
@questioneverything2 I Have stopped fighting the scriptures, and that's why I confess that Jesus Christ is God, and the Son of God. The Father sent the Spirit to Jesus, and Jesus sends Him to Us, if we ask him.
Jesus made it clear, the true GOD and LORD of heaven and earth is the Father(Yahweh). Jesus is not equal to GOD!!! There is only one Most High, the Father(Yahweh)
Only the Father is directly called, GOD the Father!! Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called, GOD the Son!! And nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit called, GOD the Holy Spirit!!
There is only one Most High GOD from whom all things came, and that's the Almighty Father!! He alone is the only true GOD!!!
@epic103 Right, One GOD. however, to say He is only the Father isn't accurate. Isaiah 48:16-17, John 8:58,59, John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19, , John 1:1, John 1:14, Acts 20:28, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 5:18, John 10:30, John 10:33,John 10:30-39,John 10:36,John 13:13, Mark 14:61-62, Psalm 110:1, John 14:9,John 14:10, John 17:5, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:14-17, Philippians 2:6, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16,1 Timothy 6:15, Continued
@epic103 Sorry they're taking so much room, Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 22:66-7, Those were all about Jesus, these are about the Spirit: Gen. 1:2, Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14, Eph. 4:4-6, 2 Cor. 3:16-18, Rom. 8:9, Matt. 10:20, John 14:17,John 15:26, Acts 8:39, Judges 15:14; 1 Sam. 16:12, Rom. 8:11, John 6:63, 1 John 5:6, 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:14, John 14:26, Rom. 8:16,Rom. 8:26,Isaiah 63:10,Eph. 4:30,Rom. 15:30,Rom. 8:27,2 Sam. 23:2,Acts 8:29,Acts 10:19,Acts 11:12,Acts 13:2,Acts 21:11,
@CaptainArrrgh This is my final response. You Said, " New Testament goes on calling the Lord Christ Jesus" Yes you are 100% right except, Lord means: the Head of something. Christ means: to anoint or apply something. Jesus mean savior. All together now: The head being, has been applied to something for our salvation. I have no argument with what it really means. A few comments back you said, "I Have stopped fighting, and that's why I confess that Jesus Christ is God, and the Son of God". Cont.
@questioneverything2 I had started to ponder all the writing I've done here, and to think, I was drawing too much focus to me. I hadn't had an easy attitude to agree with. I have become one of the pricks that it's hard to kick against. No matter how persuasive or overwhelming the evidence I present, just giving ground is difficult for people here. However I Was happy to see what I did in Matthew 1:18 today.
@CaptainArrrgh What I meant in that I stopped fighting the scriptures, was, that before I agreed with what I do now about the LORD, I used to see things that said it while reading the Bible. And I, just like I see here, substituted words in my mind, to make it agree with what I had already believed. Some translations of the Bible will make that even easier for you. But I realized I was not being honest with myself. You guys are smarter than you think, and We love You.
@CaptainArrrgh 1 Corinthians 12:3 no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Again it is important to know what the word LORD means. It doesn't mean God. 1 John 4:15 Jesus is the Son of God, at best you are arguing that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not God. You and I are sons of God because we are born again. Strong's Lexicon 3) son of God
When the reference is made to the LORD GOD, then the word LORD means GOD, because it speaking about THE LORD(GOD).
Jehovah is the English translation of Yahweh(YHWH).
When the word "LORD" is in all capitals it is a reference to the Father(Jehovah). Jehovah is the LORD our GOD!!! In other words, THE GOD(LORD) is Jehovah(YHWH)
Jesus addresses the Father as the LORD, because the Father is the LORD GOD!!
@epic103 You said, "LORD can mean GOD, but not in every case!!" Yes! You are right, just like the head of the school is the principal, HEAD PRINCIPAL. But it is redundant if there is only principal and it is redundant if there is one God. If LORD means God than that is akin to LORD God = GOD God, it doesn't work well. Sense there are 100's of lords then to assume when a person refers to a lord or Lord they must be referring to God. That is foolishness. But you know that.
@questioneverything2 Your in over your head, boy. LORD was placed in the Bible where YHWH was written. Except when it said the Lord YHWH, in this instance YHWH was replaced with God. The question is not LORD, the question is YHWH..that shoukld be your focus. Lord is more like SIR or Mr. It dosent mean anything. Its like calling a priest "Father" does this make him your father?? Hell no..So calling Jesus Lord and confusing it with LORD where YHWH was...thats just DUMB!
@zatoilluminati You're disrespectful, you call me boy. You're disrespectful, you said, little babies know this. When you turn to name calling it means your intellect has failed. You are mistaken, what I was discussing with epic103 & CaptainArrgh. You can reread my comments below and you will discover what I said is in agreement with you. There are 100's of uses for the word lord that have nothing to do with God. Jesus isn't LORD God. But Jesus could be lord of many, just not God. Thats my point
@questioneverything2 My bad..Maybe I should have posted that to captain arrgh! You are right about me being disrespectful, though. I really dont have any respect for people who hang out on Witness Hate Sites, unless they are defending the witnesses. The attackers, NO RESPECT for them. Are you here to attack the "JW's" or defend them? You do understand that this is a HATE SITE? If I read you wrong I apologize. I am not disrespectful on accident.
@zatoilluminati I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, nor do I belong to any denomination of any religion. I just read the Bible for what it says, without any indoctrination. I am at this site because, when people condemn others without having researched for the facts and are brainwashed by long standing misconception and then bear false witness of other religions, it concerns me. I am also shocked that most Christians don't even know what repentance mean. It's sad when they preach ignorance.
@CaptainArrrgh Looking back, I see, some places I wasn't very loving to you guys. Sorry about that. Thank you, whoever was praying for me. And I have a thing to say, but don't really know whom it's for. On the day the truth sets you free, remember, Let God be true, but every man a liar.
@questioneverything2 So, let me break it down for ya..Lord never means God and LORD never means God. You can mean God when you say either, you can mean God when you say Yahweh or Jehovah or even Jesus..but that dosent mean any of them actually MEANS God. YHWH was replaced with LORD and sometimes God was replaced with LORD, in these instances, when you see the LORD(all caps) you can know it means YHWH
ZATO 2:33 Even the little babies in the jungle know this.
@questioneverything2 The adoption is US, by the purchase Jesus made. He needed not be adopted. He was always the Son of GOD. John 17:5, John 1:14, John 8:58, John 17:22, Proverbs 8:23, John 17:1, John 17:24, Philippians 2:6,
@CaptainArrrgh There you go again, twisting the scriptures. The adoption is US, by the purchase the Son of God made. He, The Son of God, needed not be adopted. He was always the Son of GOD. If you word it like this you are correct if you take out "the Son of God" and insert "Jesus", you have altered the scriptures. Wrong quote: The adoption is US, by the purchase Jesus made. He needed not be adopted. He was always the Son of GOD. Word isn't Jesus. twisting scriptures John 8:58 temple said
@CaptainArrrgh , Proverbs 8:23,You changed The Son of God to Jesus once more.John.17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: He said, Glorify thy Son, not Me or Jesus. John 17:24 that they may behold my glory, which thou hast GIVEN ME: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. What Glory did God give Jesus? The Son! So the Son was bodily from the foundation of the world?
@CaptainArrrgh You say, " In order for Me to make all those changes, I would have had to go back to when it was written. It's always been." NO, All the scriptures you have listed with intention to show me that Jesus is God, those scriptures say none of what you claim, you would have to start changing words to uphold your beliefs. I'll just repeat myself. You are so indoctrinated you can no longer read the words of the Bible for what they mean.
@questioneverything2 That's a possibility we all face. So it's a good thing we can read the real thing. Sure not everybody has that opportunity, but when you do, you can fill up with the WORD and flush out indoctrination. A good reason to read the Bible every day.
@questioneverything2 The verses I posted to you were about Jesus being Christ, the topic I was discussing with You. And Jesus isn't only flesh, in our discussions you appear to be saying Jesus was just some guy and that the Holy Ghost is the Son. I would maybe think some of that were true, except that the writers of the New Testament go on calling the Lord Christ Jesus, as I've shown you. And that He also speaks from Heaven, calling himself Jesus when the Spirit is already with men.
@CaptainArrrgh Phillip. 2:5,6 [5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: This just wasn't for Jesus it was for you and I also. You have been twisting the scriptures most all your life. You have been indoctrinated and are blind to what the scriptures say. Every scripture you noted you twisted. If God wanted us to pull out Son of God out and plug in Jesus, the scripture would read that way .
@CaptainArrrgh or to pull out the word WORD and plug in Jesus. Don't you think God would of done that for you? God could of pulled out the word WORD a replaced it with Jesus. John 1:1 In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God. Why would God make so confusing? NO!!! It reads the way God wanted it to...
@CaptainArrrgh 1 John 5:12 The first born Son of God is Spirit all other sons of God are born into the adoption. For some reason you want to keep on mixing up the one true Son of God (Spirit) with the body temple of Jesus. Jesus isn't the first born Son of God but, Jesus is a born into the adoption son of God. If you will do a study with Lexicons between Son(the first Son) and son( the adoption) Other than what I have stated there is NO! difference what so ever. Study for yourself.
@questioneverything2 I John 5:12 says: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Or did you mean John 5:12? Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? But to what you're saying about my reverence for the body of Christ: John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
@CaptainArrrgh You said, " I was actually looking down on Christ. I've learned better now" I understand what you mean, I don't look down on Christ (The Son of God) however, I don't recognize the physical body that is called Jesus as our All Mighty God. Matt. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man (Jesus?), it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
@questioneverything2 You seem to take issue with Christ being called Jesus. Is the name bothering you? Like it did Saul? Acts 26:9, And later he had a change of heart: Acts 22:8. These guys didn't like it either: Acts 4:17, John 15:21, Acts 4:18. But perhaps the Bible you read says Christ and leaves out any mention of Jesus. None of the authors of the New Testament had a problem with Jesus being Christ. They clung to the notion even to death: Acts 7:59. You would call him an idolater too
@CaptainArrrgh Alright!! Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. AT least you admit its a temple. Stop worshiping the temple and worship God.
@CaptainArrrgh Con't I do realize that the issue we have discussed is only a perception we choose to see. I don't believe it is a salvation issue. I am choosing to let this go, because the judgement and opposition tends to interfere with my well being. After all Luke 9:50. So I'll end in this way, and know that Christ will bless you always.
@epic103 Yeah sorry for the overload. I just wanted to be thorough, presenting evidence of the point. However, what reason would you have to read them when you are in no doubt of the interpretation you've been given already?
@CaptainArrrgh I'm not quite sure what your point is with these scriptures. Psalm, Heb I know that the Son was with God before, while Jesus was on earth before the Anointing Baptism. Rev. 17:14 doesn't God appoint all authority? Lords and Kings? I just don't understand what your point is. As you site scriptures you interchange Jesus for God. You assume when it says Lord it means Jesus and when it says God you assume it means Jesus. You have been doing that so long you don't even realize it.
@questioneverything2 Actually I haven't been doing it long, but it all became clear once I stopped resisting it. I would be reading one of Paul's books, or all of them, and he's talking about Jesus, then all of a sudden he's saying the same thing about God, and I resented having to shift gears with no warning. Cause GOD is the highest and Jesus was just His son. So I was trying so hard to differentiate, that I was actually looking down on Christ. I've learned better now.
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Jesus made it clear that he was the way(bridge) to GOD!!! He was also clear when he taught that our GOD is the Father!!!
To use an analogy, if GOD was a house, and the only way to get to the house was by a bridge(Jesus), but instead of making your way to the house you stopped on the bridge and stayed there, instead of going to the house.
In other words, you worship the bridge and not the house, which is your destination!!!
Jesus is the way to the Father(GOD). The Father is our goal!!
@epic103 I like this analogy. It reminds me of the Hole in the Wall show. Have you seen it. They have to fit through various shapes to not get knocked into the pool. I say Jesus is the shape to get through.
I hope you guys do find the truth, and that we can all be patient in the search of it. Some blockages have to do with the words that have been redefined. Where Christ is thought to just mean annointed. God always meaning Father, Where Spirit gets defined as breath, hell becomes grave. But if you truly seek the truth, you'll see that even in the NWT the context doesn't always hold to those definitions.
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Jesus never claimed he was God my friend, and Col. 1:15 says Christ is the "first born of all creation". So that means he himself was created. God was not created, yet is clearly says Jesus was. He was therefor the first creation of God. Which is why in the creation story in Gen. it says "Let US make man in OUR image" thus plural, more than one. Explaining the rest of Col. 1 16.
@caroham29 Sorry, "Firstborn", does not mean "created". The word translated "Firstborn", is the greek word "prototokos", which means "First in rank, preeminent one, heir". That is the context of Colossians, which in the very next verse(vs. 16) it states that ALL things were made by Him(Christ). Think about that.
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@Haukman66 "Firstborn af creation"? And accordint to you, firstborn does not mean created? OK, what does "of creation" mean? What does "First in rank" of CREATION mean? What does "preeminent one" of creation mean? This is a lame excuse, ANOTHER lame excuse from you that means nothing. It says he is the SOMETHING of creation and you say SOMETHING dosent mean created? I am the exposer of your idiotic statements, Hey, "exposer dosent mean idiotic statements" How dumb can ya get?? Fix yourself!
@zatoilluminati Well, HolyRoller, NO, firstborn, does not say First created, now does it? If Paul was saying he was the "first created", he would have said, "protoktisis", which means, "First created". Thats not what Paul said! Was David the firstborn, or was he the last born? Was Ephraim, the firstborn, or was Manessah? You tell me. The text says, "firstborn of creation", not "firstborn of Yahweh". So, did the creation make Jesus? How stupid do you sound now?
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@Haukman66 ??? "NO, firstborn, does not say First created, now does it?" HUH?? No, it dosent it. It also dosent say first half? It also dosent say first grade or first in line? But, none of these, even yours, was asked. Why are you defending something that has nothing to do with the topic? Do you believe making a "true" statement about something random makes you right about what you ignored? "OF CREATION" would be the topic. Anything wise to say on that? "first born of Yahweh"?? You are funny
@zatoilluminati Holyroller, this is why I quit dealing with you weeks ago. You cant follow a simple dialogue, let alone scripture. You butt in, on a conversation, you obviously didnt bother to check what was being talked about. Typical of you. What does "Firstborn OF CREATION" mean to you mister brain? Go ahead, give me the websters definition. Or wikipedia. I'm sure you will get a great answer there. LOL.
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@Haukman66 Thats what Ive been doin fer the last frew posts. I havent posted to you in a while, you posted to me last night, dummy. All you keep saying is "Firstborn does not mean Created"? Yes, we know! First born means heir and Created means made, in the words of you DUH!
You can stop saying "firstborn dosent mean created" Again, WE KNOW!
ZATO 4:12 If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree. Get out of my orchard and let my peaches be.
@zatoilluminati "Thats what Ive been doin fer the last frew posts. I havent posted to you in a while, you posted to me last night, dummy. " This is where I tell you, you are dilusional!! I did not post to you. I posted to caroham29, and proof of this, is we have been in dialogue in PM since I posted my comment to him! So, maybe you need to adjust your medication dude, because unless by some strange reason, you are actually caroham29, I never said a word to you.
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm.110:1
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include GOD Himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son will be made subject to Him(GOD) who put everything under him, so that GOD may be all in all. 1Cor.15:27,28
@epic103 Philippians 2:9-119Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
@epic103 The Father, יהוה And I don't think anybody here disputes that the Son, יֵשׁוּעַ is subject to Him, and it's still not contradictory to Him being GOD.
@epic103 1st: Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, 5:5, John 3:16, John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; I John 4:9 John 20:31, Hebrews 11:17 Luke 1:31-35,38 One of a kind, proceeding directly
2nd: John 10:30, Philippians 2:6, II Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9 Jesus is God
3rd: John 14:28, John 10:29, The Father is above All
4th: John 14:24, II John 1:9, John 16:13, The Son and the Spirit are both subject to the Father
@CaptainArrrgh Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Acts 17:29
@zatoilluminati what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Ok, sure, it wasnt you. It was an imposter. I am sure you have hundreds wanting to be you? lmao. I kicked you ass on the "firstborn of creation" and your only recourse is to start a fight..a little name calling to take the focus off me spanking that ass? Now, go awy, leave me alon. Go and lick your wounds and be a good boy. You cant win em all, actually YOU cant win any but thats another story.
@Haukman66 That part about nobody having seen God, makes sense in that God told Moses, he could only look at his side or back but face to face would cause his death, yet God took a human form that was safe for Abraham to see.
Jehovah's first creation was Jesus. When Jehovah wanted to create the world, he enlisted Jesus' help. Wouldn't you want to build something absolutely amazing with your son?
Glyph255 3 days ago
I had it explained to me like this, Like you I was confused about it. A builder is developing a site to put a house on it. In the front yard it has the Builders name on a sign John Scott. Its johns lot, he owns it when the house is purchased it is purchased from John. But the guy that built the home and did the works name is Mike. Through Jesus all things were created, but the credit goes to his father, as with the example I gave u. Jesus himself many times credits his father not himself. hmmm
TheRealityisreality 3 days ago
PS: you said something in your video. @ time 1:38. You said that Jesus claimed he was god. Trust me, i've looked for him CLAIMING to be god but, he never did. Never.
PPS: About my answer to your question. NOTE: that the speaker gave credit to God Jehovah for creating all things. This speaker was Christ.
zorftron 5 days ago
In conclusion, the speaker of Proverbs 8 is not Solomon but Jesus Christ, the first born of all creation. Within chapter 8 Christ mentions that he was created long before Jehovah's works. He gives credit to Jehovah within these verses (26-29) Jesus Christ was Jehovah's master worker, working beside him. Jehovah could also be the creator of everything while using Jesus as worker.
zorftron 5 days ago
Read Proverbs 8:26-29 - Within these scriptures the speaker (Jesus Christ) says "HE" this HE is Jehovah God.
Also within these verses we could also see exactly what the 'works of old,' really are.
The key words that stand out now are:
WHILE AS YET HE had not made the earth...When HE prepared the heavens...when HE set a compass upon...when HE established the clouds..when HE strengthened the...when HE gave to the sea his decree..when HE appointed the
Before the Jehovah's work Jesus was created
zorftron 5 days ago
You mentioned Isaiah 45:18. This calls Jehovah creator of the Heavens, former of the Earth, the maker of it etc...
Col 1:16 mentions 'him' which is obviously Christ Jesus. It says that by means of him all things were created, and it semi describes what they are.
These two verses DO NOT contradict themselves within our beliefs. Let the bible explain. Once again i'll invite you to read Proverbs 8, but this time we'll slow it down a bit and squeeze the scriptures to get to the precious treasure.
zorftron 5 days ago
Proverbs 8:30 (Different Bibles)
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman -NKJV
Then I was the craftsman -NIVUK
Then I was the craftsman at his side -NIV1984
...the artisan -NIV footnote
I was the skilled worker at his side. -NIRV
I was beside Him, as a master workman NASB
then I came to be beside him as a master worker -New World Translation
Chirst Jesus did indeed create the world.
All these version of the bible point to a Truth, the first born of all creation, Jesus, was a master worker
zorftron 5 days ago
However, Verse 30 of Chapter 8 will some what shed some light on the subject and question you've asked.
The KJV reads: "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him"
Then I am near Him, a WORKMAN -YLT
I was making all (these) things WITH him.-WYC
I was...was the artisan -TNIV footnote
an Artisan a worker who practices a trade or handicraft
I was the architect at his side -NLT I was beside Him as the leading workman -NLV
cont...
zorftron 5 days ago
* The abbreviations before are the Different Bible Versions the quotes were taken from.
Cont...
Chapter 8 verse 22 of Proverbs in many different version of the bible give us a very clear picture of who was created in the beginning before all other things and by whom. Jehovah created Christ Jesus before all other thing. That is why he alone is called "Firstborn; Son of God, Only Begotten."
Lets continue reading Chapter 8. Verses 23- 29 describes the works of Jehovah.
zorftron 5 days ago
zorftron 5 days ago
The word LORD is capitalized because this title replaced a name.
" In many translations of the Bible, when the word "LORD" is in all capitals, it signifies that the word represents the tetragrammaton.[8]" (Wikipedia, just Google: Why is lord and god capitalized?, and Google: Tetragammaton.) In Short, the Name that was replaced was Jehovah.
Verse 22 then reads with more feeling now.
"The LORD (or Jehovah) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." What is his 'works?'
zorftron 5 days ago
Continuing with verse 16, it reads: "By me princes rule, and nobles,(part b) even all the judges of the earth." Part B also points away from Solomon. Read verses 17 - 21, read them over and over, if you know the Bible well you'll know who is speaking in Chapter 8 of Proverbs by now.
Special Note on verse 22, which reads: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Why is the word LORD capitalized? This deserves special consideration.....cont.
zorftron 5 days ago
PS: I'm not here to prove you wrong, all i'm here to do is to point you a supporting text.
Continue reading Proverbs, as you continue reading it would seem that verses 13,14 can relate perfectly with Solomon. BUT, verse 15 does NOT fit with Solomon's history. Solomon's kingdom, Israel, was in its second King, and yet the Kingdom of Israel was not big enough to appoint vassal king. "By me kings reign," does not fit with Solomon, if not with him then who?
zorftron 5 days ago
Well, i'll try to answer your question. Open your bible to Proverbs Chapter 8 lets begin from verse 12. A special note to remember is that King Solomon wrote the book of Proverbs. This is a important note to remember.
Verse 12 reads: "i wisdom dwell with prudence..." (KJV) Nothing Really stands out from these texts other than the fact that and ability(wisdom) speaks in first person. Most of Chapter 8 is spoken like a dialog, somebody is speaking here. That much we can gather at first glance
zorftron 5 days ago
So funny watching religious nutters challenging each other for the title "Idiot Champion of the World".
mikelheron20 5 days ago
Also challenge this.. Deuteronomy 18:20-22. JW’s own materials declare they are God’s prophet, so JW cannot respond no, they are forced to admit to the prophethood of the Watch Tower Organization
alexandrepolkov 1 week ago
read colloassians 1:15 it says jesus was the IMAGE of the invisible God not God and if you look in colloassians 1:3 it say God the Father of our lord Jesus Christ.. Jesus can't be his own father.. and the bible says lets make man in OUR image not my image and Jesus is called the son of man and the bible says the son of man is not equal to God
Melly241000 1 week ago
Its all bull! Follow your heart!
papillonluv 1 week ago
@zydnaay, i was being sarcastic.
Bellerspitts 1 week ago
perfect..Also if you wnna see the truth you have to read (The Holy Quran) you will find all the answers that u need
MrAah187 2 weeks ago
How did God come
into being? Fact you cant make something out of nothing so where has God come from and personally the bible is a big book of stories and its purpose was to create control.
charlesbeale1997 2 weeks ago
you need the watchtower to understand the bible,...otherwise your screwed.
Bellerspitts 3 weeks ago
@Bellerspitts Thats what the WatchTower wants you to do. The WT doesnt want you to know the truth. Why not study the bible and ONLY the bible? Gods true words. The truth sets you free my friend, and not be scared because Jesus said IT. IS. DONE
zydnaay 1 week ago
Does GOD also pray? Does GOD also die? Does GOD also get baptised? Who can resurrect GOD? GOD said "I am here to do the will of that who sent me" does this make any sense? Satan said to GOD, "if you are The Son of GOD, jump down the cliff and GOD will send his angels to catch you" any sense? GOD said, "why are you calling me good, nobody is good except GOD" any sense here? GOD said, "I dont know the time, only GOD knows the time" any sense?
You need a bible study.
quietsparks1 3 weeks ago
its all bolocks youre all fucking daft
superdog117 3 weeks ago
Hello there, i am an 11 year old Jehovah Witness myself, and i dislike seeing my religion being basically pin-pointed on Youtube. As already stated in comments yes you should definitely read the scripture in the bible or even so look it up... John 17:1-3, and definitely tell us what your opinion is. If you dont believe we preach the truth, you must believe that when jehovah decides to end this system, all the people who have turned there back to jehovah and the evil ones will be destroyed! Bye
Natz51211 1 month ago
@Natz51211: J.W.'s like to teach that they alone have the truth. What is the truth?
John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." What is the truth? JESUS!
Not an organization, or religion, but JESUS alone. The Father is only superior in position.
Is your father superior to you as a human being? No.
Is he superior to you in authority? Yes.
God is like an egg, shell, white, and yolk. Three parts in one egg. All are egg.
abbyguy 1 month ago
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The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD(Jehovah), and against his anointed(Jesus). Psalm.2:2
The kings of the earth take their stand, and the rulers gather together against the LORD, and against His Christ. Acts.4:26 - Jesus is the Christ of the LORD!!
The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the GOD of our forefathers has glorified His servant, Jesus. Acts.3:13
The Almighty Father(Yahweh) is the true GOD(Most High), not Jesus!!
epic103 2 months ago
Hey chuck, Im a Jehovahs Witness , I want you to read John 17:1-3, And tell me what your opinion is on that an get back to me!!
fatmouse33 2 months ago
@fatmouse33: I know where you are going with this I've heard it before, but you folks never use the scriptures as a unit. You HAVE to include John 17:4,and 5. 4 “I glorified You on the earth... 5 Now, Father, glorify ME TOGETHER WITH Yourself, with the glory which I HAD with You before the world was." Jesus had Glory not as an angel, Hebrews 1 it proves he could not have been an angel, but as God the Son. Without these verses you are just cherry picking scriptures to prove you position.
abbyguy 1 month ago
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fatmouse33 2 months ago
I'll do the JW's one simple favor. What about the holy spirit? Where does that come into the scriptures?... You may find you have yourself a duality at best my friend not a trinity... Having said that Jehovah is not their God, the Watch Tower is their God, I've seen their 'appointed' men become God to others, they destroy families. Not intentionally, many think they're quasi marriage/anger management/psychologist, counselors...
drewmayer13 2 months ago 2
Good one! I'm a former JW, I appreciate your open mindedness!It matters not if they convince you to they're way of thinking! I feel either may or may not be correct, and that religion itself is detrimental.But JW's more so, biblicaly correct or not. Look at some of the more sincere heartfelt stories of ex JW's. I'm one of them, I don't speak against them because they are just the current victims as I was. But many video's of ourselves are on here for support of ourselves and other ex JW's.
drewmayer13 2 months ago 2
Oh man. cinnamon challenge was way better than this :/
atkenney86 2 months ago
@epic103 Yes
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
Frank Lloyd Wright was an Architect. Anything designed by him is referred to as Built by him---but he never lifted a hammer--he had a master builder/contractor that worked under him...God is an Architect---Scripture calls Jesus his Master builder. Here's one for ya -- what so-called Christian religion refuses to support the troups?? Jesus refused! If you support the troups in any way--you are not Christian. "But lord!!!! I did so much in your name!!!!--get away from me wicked people"
stuicide1 3 months ago 3
@stuicide1 Just give me one scripture that says, Jesus his Master builder. Just what I thought YOU can't find it. Where do you get the twisted quotes? Like this one "But lord!!!! I did so much in your name!!!!--get away from me wicked people" It reads nothing like that. If you quoted it right you would understand. That scripture is about WORKS!! You don't get salvation thru works. Please don't comment on this site till you have read the Bible a few dozen times.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 I agree with some of what you are saying, but we need to do it with love.
abbyguy 1 month ago
@questioneverything2 Proverbs 8:22-36, Matt. 7:22,23 James 2:17 -You 'BELIEVE' in Jesus do you?? So does Satan!
stuicide1 1 month ago
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questioneverything2 1 month ago
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@stuicide1 You said, "'BELIEVE' in Jesus do you?? So does Satan! I only believe he was a man not God!!! The Scriptures you gave don't apply. Proverbs 8:22-36 Isn't about Jesus it's about the Son of God (Spirit) not a man. Matt. 7:22,23 is about "works only" without faith. James 2:17 says, faith needs works. Go back to the Bible and read it 20 or 30 times then you will be ready to correct others. Now, If you want to learn I here for you. If You want to debate, come up with some good scriptures
questioneverything2 1 month ago
@stuicide1 : So this is supposed to be the way to tell how to get saved, by "not supporting 'the troops???" Please tell me in whose name are we saved, and how?
abbyguy 1 month ago
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@abbyguy
For the one whom GOD has sent speaks the words of GOD: for GOD gives the Spirit without limit. John.3:34
Jesus said, I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than He that sent him. John.13:16
Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I have not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. John.7:28
The true GOD is the Father(Yahweh). He is the GOD of Jesus!!
epic103 1 week ago
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of GOD among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD did by him in the midst of you. Acts.2:22
GOD exalted him(Jesus) to his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts.5:31
GOD anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for GOD was with him. Acts.10:38
epic103 3 months ago
Here's one for the NWT. Every reference in the New Testament to a scripture in the old Testament, refered to Jesus as Lord. However in the old testament, that had been changed to the name used by WT for GOD. In that case Jesus would be Jehovah.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 7
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@CaptainArrrgh Jesus became Christ only after water baptism, nobody who wrote about his divinity in the New Testament would have mentioned the name after He died>>> Just like the disciples of Jesus, they didn't understand the full teaching of Jesus, saying things like "ye of little faith" "do you not understand" Mat 15:16,17 Mark 4:12 Mark 7:18 8:17,21 Luke 8:10 John 8:43 Act 28:26 etc. It is clear that Jesus couldn't get them to completely understand. They worshiped the messenger. >> Continue
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Luke 24:50-53 Acts 1:9-11 Would you agree that this happened after He died? Surely those 2 angels knew better than to call him by the wrong name.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 4
@questioneverything2 Acts 4:10-12, Romans 1:1-4, Romans 1:18, 24-32, John 5:22, Romans 6:9,10, Romans 8:34, They kept saying it. And it was after it all happened that they wrote it. After he gave them the Spirit, which reminded and guided them. John 14:16,17, John 7:38,39, John 14:26, Ephesians 1:17-19, I might concur that Christ became Jesus at birth, rather than that Jesus became Christ at baptism.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 4
@questioneverything2: That's just what the first century Gnostic's believed, but it was not what true first century Christians believed. Like Irenaeus, Poloycarp, Ignatius and others. They argued against exactly what you are saying as heresy. If you believe it you are one as well.
abbyguy 1 month ago
@abbyguy Sorry, you misunderstood me, I never said the Son wasn't part of the Trinity or that the Son wasn't God. Only that Jesus wasn't God any more than you or I.
questioneverything2 1 month ago
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@questioneverything2 "Jesus wasn't God any more than you or I."
What scriptures can you use to defend this position? Again that IS what the Gnostic's posited, and what early church fathers railed against. It's not scriptural, sorry.
We are not all God, that is a "New age" position.
abbyguy 1 month ago
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@CaptainArrrgh Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus said, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee?? I saw thee under the fig tree?? believest thou?? thou shalt see greater things than these. Jesus was shocked that because He saw him under the tree, Nathanael called him the Son of God. This is Worshiping the messenger.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Yes I suppose that would explain why a person would never get that impression just by reading what they wrote. And maybe this is why: John 14:26
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 3
@questioneverything2 Messenger? I had been thinking He was the message all this time. By messenger, do you mean angel? They are synonymous words aren't they?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 2
@CaptainArrrgh Luke 24:50-53 Identifies Christ not Jesus. Acts 1:9-11 uses the name Jesus. However as you commented below, " We contain Christ when we ask Him to come into our heart." are you implying that Christ's physical body is contained within us? Or the Spirit of Christ is contained with in us? You have shown me 1 scripture saying Jesus' body went 2 heaven I have shown U many scriptures where Jesus isn't the Son of God. Why do you hold fast to the one scripture while rejecting the many?
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Actually every book in the New Testament identifies Christ as Jesus. If Jesus was just a regular guy til John the Baptist baptized Him(needlessly by John's opinion) then the sacrifice of His life wouldn't have been the same. It would have been a sinful man. And furthermore, if the Apostles who wrote the Gospels under direction of the HG breathed right out of Jesus' mouth, were mistaken, there was still Paul who didn't meet him til after Assent. .
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 3
@questioneverything2 If you're right, these guys are way off, but I don't think so: John 1:14, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 John 1:2, 1 John 2:23, 1 John 4:15, 1 John 5:1, 2 John 1:7 . If only they had known Jesus didn't mean for them to think all this, maybe they wouldn't have had to be on the run all that time, right?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 3
@CaptainArrrgh I could go on all day correcting your understanding of the scriptures. 1 John 1:2, eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us. It is with the Father, he is with eternal life. you are worshiping the manifestation, the graven image. The Father is the source of all, His creation is the Son that anoints the body temple, that temple is what you worship. Flesh and blood. God is Spirit worship Him in spirit.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Well maybe you could correct these too: John 14:7-10, John 10:30, John 14:11, John 10:37-38, Matthew 27:43, John 17:11, John 10:31-33, John 17:5, John 17:10, Mark 14:61b-62, Luke 22:66-70, Daniel 7:13-14, John 14:31, John 17:12, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 9:6-7
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 3
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questioneverything2 1 month ago
@CaptainArrrgh If you have my comment in your Email please forget it, I did't realize I was restarting an old disagreement. forgive me.
questioneverything2 1 month ago
@questioneverything2 Hey it was fun over here and many important points are being addressed.
CaptainArrrgh 1 month ago
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@CaptainArrrgh Found another scripture; showing Jesus is the lamb, the anointed, the temple of God not the Son of God. Tell me what you think.Mal.3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me(John): and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple (after the way is prepared by John, God shell come to the body temple), even the messenger (servant Jesus) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
questioneverything2 3 weeks ago
@CaptainArrrgh You never addressed my point on how John the Baptist could baptize Jesus with the Holy Spirit when only the Son of God could do that? If John could only baptize with water. Then who baptized Jesus with the Holy Spirit? It could only be the Son of God that baptized Jesus as He entered the temple body of Jesus. STOP FIGHTING THE SCRIPTURES.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 What point? John the Baptist really only had to be there to fulfill a prophesy. Jesus was already Christ. And being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't make a person Christ. John had it, and wasn't Him. They transferred it by laying on of hands in Acts. However, I can see you're beyond listening since the adoptionist dogma clouds things for you.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh Dogma? From where? I have no preconceived Ideas on the Bible. My parents never took me to church, I only read the Bible as Jesus instructed us, as a child with no doctrine, Dogma or church to mislead me. What about you?
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Well I read the Bible every day, and sometimes go years without going to a church. perhaps you feel that biases my perspective. And I would have to say it might.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh You say,"Jesus was already Christ. Lets go by the Bible: [Christ=Anointed one] You say, Jesus was already Anointed. When was He anointed? What was the anointing of the Spirit that remained w/ Jesus that John saw? Extra God energy? If Jesus was born God then He has no clue what it is like to be a Man, because he had all the faith in Himself. Yet, we are suppose to have faith like Jesus? LOL How unfair to expect something from us that God couldn't or wouldn't do.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 I Have stopped fighting the scriptures, and that's why I confess that Jesus Christ is God, and the Son of God. The Father sent the Spirit to Jesus, and Jesus sends Him to Us, if we ask him.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh
Jesus made it clear, the true GOD and LORD of heaven and earth is the Father(Yahweh). Jesus is not equal to GOD!!! There is only one Most High, the Father(Yahweh)
Only the Father is directly called, GOD the Father!! Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called, GOD the Son!! And nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit called, GOD the Holy Spirit!!
There is only one Most High GOD from whom all things came, and that's the Almighty Father!! He alone is the only true GOD!!!
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 Right, One GOD. however, to say He is only the Father isn't accurate. Isaiah 48:16-17, John 8:58,59, John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19, , John 1:1, John 1:14, Acts 20:28, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 5:18, John 10:30, John 10:33,John 10:30-39,John 10:36,John 13:13, Mark 14:61-62, Psalm 110:1, John 14:9,John 14:10, John 17:5, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:14-17, Philippians 2:6, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16,1 Timothy 6:15, Continued
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@epic103 More: Hebrews 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:8, Titus 2:13, Revelation 19:16, John 8:24, Zechariah 12:10, Isaiah 8:8, Jeremiah 23:5-6, Luke 5:20-24, Revelation 19:11-14, Revelation 1:8, Isaiah 42:8,Isaiah 48:11, John 17:5, Colossians 1:15-27, John 1:3, Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:19, Daniel 7:13,14, Revelation 14:14, Matthew 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 12:8,32,40, 13:37,41, 16:27,28, 17:9,12,22, 18:11, 19:28, 20:18,28, 24:27,30,37,39,44, 25:31, 26:2,24,45; John 1:51, 5:27, 6:27,62, 8:28, 9:35, 12:23, 13:31
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@epic103 Sorry they're taking so much room, Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 22:66-7, Those were all about Jesus, these are about the Spirit: Gen. 1:2, Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14, Eph. 4:4-6, 2 Cor. 3:16-18, Rom. 8:9, Matt. 10:20, John 14:17,John 15:26, Acts 8:39, Judges 15:14; 1 Sam. 16:12, Rom. 8:11, John 6:63, 1 John 5:6, 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:14, John 14:26, Rom. 8:16,Rom. 8:26,Isaiah 63:10,Eph. 4:30,Rom. 15:30,Rom. 8:27,2 Sam. 23:2,Acts 8:29,Acts 10:19,Acts 11:12,Acts 13:2,Acts 21:11,
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@epic103 More: Acts 28:25-26,1 Tim. 4:1,Heb. 3:7-8,Rev. 2:7,Rev. 2:11,17,29; 3:6,13,22, Rev. 14:13,Rev. 22:17,1 Cor. 2:11,Acts 15:28,Acts 5:3,Acts 5:9,Acts 20:28,Acts 5:32,Acts 7:51,John 14:26,Luke 12:12,Rom. 8:26Matt. 4:1,John 6:63,Acts 2:4, He's especially called God by Peter when He's talking to Ananias.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh This is my final response. You Said, " New Testament goes on calling the Lord Christ Jesus" Yes you are 100% right except, Lord means: the Head of something. Christ means: to anoint or apply something. Jesus mean savior. All together now: The head being, has been applied to something for our salvation. I have no argument with what it really means. A few comments back you said, "I Have stopped fighting, and that's why I confess that Jesus Christ is God, and the Son of God". Cont.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 I had started to ponder all the writing I've done here, and to think, I was drawing too much focus to me. I hadn't had an easy attitude to agree with. I have become one of the pricks that it's hard to kick against. No matter how persuasive or overwhelming the evidence I present, just giving ground is difficult for people here. However I Was happy to see what I did in Matthew 1:18 today.
CaptainArrrgh 2 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh What I meant in that I stopped fighting the scriptures, was, that before I agreed with what I do now about the LORD, I used to see things that said it while reading the Bible. And I, just like I see here, substituted words in my mind, to make it agree with what I had already believed. Some translations of the Bible will make that even easier for you. But I realized I was not being honest with myself. You guys are smarter than you think, and We love You.
CaptainArrrgh 2 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh 1 Corinthians 12:3 no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Again it is important to know what the word LORD means. It doesn't mean God. 1 John 4:15 Jesus is the Son of God, at best you are arguing that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not God. You and I are sons of God because we are born again. Strong's Lexicon 3) son of God
a) used to describe Adam (Lk. 3:38)
b) used to describe those who are born again (Lk. 20:36) and of angels and of Jesus Christ
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2
LORD can mean GOD, but not in every case!!
When the reference is made to the LORD GOD, then the word LORD means GOD, because it speaking about THE LORD(GOD).
Jehovah is the English translation of Yahweh(YHWH).
When the word "LORD" is in all capitals it is a reference to the Father(Jehovah). Jehovah is the LORD our GOD!!! In other words, THE GOD(LORD) is Jehovah(YHWH)
Jesus addresses the Father as the LORD, because the Father is the LORD GOD!!
epic103 3 months ago 4
@epic103 You said, "LORD can mean GOD, but not in every case!!" Yes! You are right, just like the head of the school is the principal, HEAD PRINCIPAL. But it is redundant if there is only principal and it is redundant if there is one God. If LORD means God than that is akin to LORD God = GOD God, it doesn't work well. Sense there are 100's of lords then to assume when a person refers to a lord or Lord they must be referring to God. That is foolishness. But you know that.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Your in over your head, boy. LORD was placed in the Bible where YHWH was written. Except when it said the Lord YHWH, in this instance YHWH was replaced with God. The question is not LORD, the question is YHWH..that shoukld be your focus. Lord is more like SIR or Mr. It dosent mean anything. Its like calling a priest "Father" does this make him your father?? Hell no..So calling Jesus Lord and confusing it with LORD where YHWH was...thats just DUMB!
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati You're disrespectful, you call me boy. You're disrespectful, you said, little babies know this. When you turn to name calling it means your intellect has failed. You are mistaken, what I was discussing with epic103 & CaptainArrgh. You can reread my comments below and you will discover what I said is in agreement with you. There are 100's of uses for the word lord that have nothing to do with God. Jesus isn't LORD God. But Jesus could be lord of many, just not God. Thats my point
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 My bad..Maybe I should have posted that to captain arrgh! You are right about me being disrespectful, though. I really dont have any respect for people who hang out on Witness Hate Sites, unless they are defending the witnesses. The attackers, NO RESPECT for them. Are you here to attack the "JW's" or defend them? You do understand that this is a HATE SITE? If I read you wrong I apologize. I am not disrespectful on accident.
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
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questioneverything2 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, nor do I belong to any denomination of any religion. I just read the Bible for what it says, without any indoctrination. I am at this site because, when people condemn others without having researched for the facts and are brainwashed by long standing misconception and then bear false witness of other religions, it concerns me. I am also shocked that most Christians don't even know what repentance mean. It's sad when they preach ignorance.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati Which side do we see the hatred coming from?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh Looking back, I see, some places I wasn't very loving to you guys. Sorry about that. Thank you, whoever was praying for me. And I have a thing to say, but don't really know whom it's for. On the day the truth sets you free, remember, Let God be true, but every man a liar.
CaptainArrrgh 2 months ago
@questioneverything2 So, let me break it down for ya..Lord never means God and LORD never means God. You can mean God when you say either, you can mean God when you say Yahweh or Jehovah or even Jesus..but that dosent mean any of them actually MEANS God. YHWH was replaced with LORD and sometimes God was replaced with LORD, in these instances, when you see the LORD(all caps) you can know it means YHWH
ZATO 2:33 Even the little babies in the jungle know this.
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 The adoption is US, by the purchase Jesus made. He needed not be adopted. He was always the Son of GOD. John 17:5, John 1:14, John 8:58, John 17:22, Proverbs 8:23, John 17:1, John 17:24, Philippians 2:6,
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh There you go again, twisting the scriptures. The adoption is US, by the purchase the Son of God made. He, The Son of God, needed not be adopted. He was always the Son of GOD. If you word it like this you are correct if you take out "the Son of God" and insert "Jesus", you have altered the scriptures. Wrong quote: The adoption is US, by the purchase Jesus made. He needed not be adopted. He was always the Son of GOD. Word isn't Jesus. twisting scriptures John 8:58 temple said
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh , Proverbs 8:23,You changed The Son of God to Jesus once more.John.17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: He said, Glorify thy Son, not Me or Jesus. John 17:24 that they may behold my glory, which thou hast GIVEN ME: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. What Glory did God give Jesus? The Son! So the Son was bodily from the foundation of the world?
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 In order for Me to make all those changes, I would have had to back to when it was written. It's always been.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
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questioneverything2 3 months ago
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@CaptainArrrgh You say, " In order for Me to make all those changes, I would have had to go back to when it was written. It's always been." NO, All the scriptures you have listed with intention to show me that Jesus is God, those scriptures say none of what you claim, you would have to start changing words to uphold your beliefs. I'll just repeat myself. You are so indoctrinated you can no longer read the words of the Bible for what they mean.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 That's a possibility we all face. So it's a good thing we can read the real thing. Sure not everybody has that opportunity, but when you do, you can fill up with the WORD and flush out indoctrination. A good reason to read the Bible every day.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
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CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 The verses I posted to you were about Jesus being Christ, the topic I was discussing with You. And Jesus isn't only flesh, in our discussions you appear to be saying Jesus was just some guy and that the Holy Ghost is the Son. I would maybe think some of that were true, except that the writers of the New Testament go on calling the Lord Christ Jesus, as I've shown you. And that He also speaks from Heaven, calling himself Jesus when the Spirit is already with men.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh Phillip. 2:5,6 [5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: This just wasn't for Jesus it was for you and I also. You have been twisting the scriptures most all your life. You have been indoctrinated and are blind to what the scriptures say. Every scripture you noted you twisted. If God wanted us to pull out Son of God out and plug in Jesus, the scripture would read that way .
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh or to pull out the word WORD and plug in Jesus. Don't you think God would of done that for you? God could of pulled out the word WORD a replaced it with Jesus. John 1:1 In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God. Why would God make so confusing? NO!!! It reads the way God wanted it to...
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh 1 John 5:12 The first born Son of God is Spirit all other sons of God are born into the adoption. For some reason you want to keep on mixing up the one true Son of God (Spirit) with the body temple of Jesus. Jesus isn't the first born Son of God but, Jesus is a born into the adoption son of God. If you will do a study with Lexicons between Son(the first Son) and son( the adoption) Other than what I have stated there is NO! difference what so ever. Study for yourself.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 I John 5:12 says: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Or did you mean John 5:12? Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? But to what you're saying about my reverence for the body of Christ: John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 2
@CaptainArrrgh You said, " I was actually looking down on Christ. I've learned better now" I understand what you mean, I don't look down on Christ (The Son of God) however, I don't recognize the physical body that is called Jesus as our All Mighty God. Matt. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man (Jesus?), it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 You seem to take issue with Christ being called Jesus. Is the name bothering you? Like it did Saul? Acts 26:9, And later he had a change of heart: Acts 22:8. These guys didn't like it either: Acts 4:17, John 15:21, Acts 4:18. But perhaps the Bible you read says Christ and leaves out any mention of Jesus. None of the authors of the New Testament had a problem with Jesus being Christ. They clung to the notion even to death: Acts 7:59. You would call him an idolater too
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
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@CaptainArrrgh Alright!! Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. AT least you admit its a temple. Stop worshiping the temple and worship God.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 I don't worship the temple. You want to limit Jesus to human form. No writer of the New Testament did.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh Con't I do realize that the issue we have discussed is only a perception we choose to see. I don't believe it is a salvation issue. I am choosing to let this go, because the judgement and opposition tends to interfere with my well being. After all Luke 9:50. So I'll end in this way, and know that Christ will bless you always.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Thank you. I realized a similar thing yesterday when I went to bed.
CaptainArrrgh 2 months ago
@questioneverything2 However He did say some things about His flesh too: John 6:51,5-55, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-19, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh
What are you doing?? None of those verses proves what you say!!
Posting a 100 verses doesn't mean your interpretation of those verses is correct!!
I can throw up 100 verses too!!!
Remember, it was after purification of sin when Jesus was exalted and seated at the right hand of GOD!! Heb.1:3,4, Col.3:1, Phil.2:9-11, Acts.5:30,31
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of GOD. Col.3:1
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 Yeah sorry for the overload. I just wanted to be thorough, presenting evidence of the point. However, what reason would you have to read them when you are in no doubt of the interpretation you've been given already?
CaptainArrrgh 2 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh OMG, I hope one of you has a condom.
zatoilluminati 2 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh Compare Psalm 102:25 to Heb. 1:10, Isaiah 45:23 to Phil. 2:10-11, Deut. 10:17 to Rev. 17:14, Isaiah 44:6 to John 1:49 and Rev. 22:12-13, Psalm 130:7-8 to Titus 2:14, Zech. 12:10 to Rev. 1:7, Joel 2:32 to Rom. 10:13
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh I'm not quite sure what your point is with these scriptures. Psalm, Heb I know that the Son was with God before, while Jesus was on earth before the Anointing Baptism. Rev. 17:14 doesn't God appoint all authority? Lords and Kings? I just don't understand what your point is. As you site scriptures you interchange Jesus for God. You assume when it says Lord it means Jesus and when it says God you assume it means Jesus. You have been doing that so long you don't even realize it.
questioneverything2 3 months ago
@questioneverything2 Actually I haven't been doing it long, but it all became clear once I stopped resisting it. I would be reading one of Paul's books, or all of them, and he's talking about Jesus, then all of a sudden he's saying the same thing about God, and I resented having to shift gears with no warning. Cause GOD is the highest and Jesus was just His son. So I was trying so hard to differentiate, that I was actually looking down on Christ. I've learned better now.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
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questioneverything2 3 months ago
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Amateur
kombatzero 3 months ago
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Jesus made it clear that he was the way(bridge) to GOD!!! He was also clear when he taught that our GOD is the Father!!!
To use an analogy, if GOD was a house, and the only way to get to the house was by a bridge(Jesus), but instead of making your way to the house you stopped on the bridge and stayed there, instead of going to the house.
In other words, you worship the bridge and not the house, which is your destination!!!
Jesus is the way to the Father(GOD). The Father is our goal!!
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 I like this analogy. It reminds me of the Hole in the Wall show. Have you seen it. They have to fit through various shapes to not get knocked into the pool. I say Jesus is the shape to get through.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 5
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@Haukman66
It doesn't say all things were made by Christ!!!
All things were made by the invisible GOD(Yahweh, Father). Stop cherry pickin verses, and look at the Bible as a whole!!!
Because Col.1:1-3 makes a clear distinction between Jesus, and the GOD of Jesus!!! The GOD of Jesus is the Creator!!!
The bottom line is, the invisible GOD is Yahweh(Father), He alone is the Creator and LORD of heaven and earth!!!
This has already been established by Jesus!! The true GOD is the Father!!!
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 Sorry, but it does: John 1:2,3,10 Proverbs 8:30 Colossians 1:16 Hebrews 1:2 1 John 5:1
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 5
I hope you guys do find the truth, and that we can all be patient in the search of it. Some blockages have to do with the words that have been redefined. Where Christ is thought to just mean annointed. God always meaning Father, Where Spirit gets defined as breath, hell becomes grave. But if you truly seek the truth, you'll see that even in the NWT the context doesn't always hold to those definitions.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 5
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By the way I'm not a JW, just a honest bible student!!!
caroham29 3 months ago
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Jesus never claimed he was God my friend, and Col. 1:15 says Christ is the "first born of all creation". So that means he himself was created. God was not created, yet is clearly says Jesus was. He was therefor the first creation of God. Which is why in the creation story in Gen. it says "Let US make man in OUR image" thus plural, more than one. Explaining the rest of Col. 1 16.
HOPE THIS HELPS BRO,
KEEP STUDYING!!!
caroham29 3 months ago
@caroham29 Sorry, "Firstborn", does not mean "created". The word translated "Firstborn", is the greek word "prototokos", which means "First in rank, preeminent one, heir". That is the context of Colossians, which in the very next verse(vs. 16) it states that ALL things were made by Him(Christ). Think about that.
Haukman66 3 months ago 7
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@Haukman66 "Firstborn af creation"? And accordint to you, firstborn does not mean created? OK, what does "of creation" mean? What does "First in rank" of CREATION mean? What does "preeminent one" of creation mean? This is a lame excuse, ANOTHER lame excuse from you that means nothing. It says he is the SOMETHING of creation and you say SOMETHING dosent mean created? I am the exposer of your idiotic statements, Hey, "exposer dosent mean idiotic statements" How dumb can ya get?? Fix yourself!
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati Well, HolyRoller, NO, firstborn, does not say First created, now does it? If Paul was saying he was the "first created", he would have said, "protoktisis", which means, "First created". Thats not what Paul said! Was David the firstborn, or was he the last born? Was Ephraim, the firstborn, or was Manessah? You tell me. The text says, "firstborn of creation", not "firstborn of Yahweh". So, did the creation make Jesus? How stupid do you sound now?
Haukman66 3 months ago 5
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@Haukman66 ??? "NO, firstborn, does not say First created, now does it?" HUH?? No, it dosent it. It also dosent say first half? It also dosent say first grade or first in line? But, none of these, even yours, was asked. Why are you defending something that has nothing to do with the topic? Do you believe making a "true" statement about something random makes you right about what you ignored? "OF CREATION" would be the topic. Anything wise to say on that? "first born of Yahweh"?? You are funny
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati Holyroller, this is why I quit dealing with you weeks ago. You cant follow a simple dialogue, let alone scripture. You butt in, on a conversation, you obviously didnt bother to check what was being talked about. Typical of you. What does "Firstborn OF CREATION" mean to you mister brain? Go ahead, give me the websters definition. Or wikipedia. I'm sure you will get a great answer there. LOL.
Haukman66 3 months ago 4
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@Haukman66 Thats what Ive been doin fer the last frew posts. I havent posted to you in a while, you posted to me last night, dummy. All you keep saying is "Firstborn does not mean Created"? Yes, we know! First born means heir and Created means made, in the words of you DUH!
You can stop saying "firstborn dosent mean created" Again, WE KNOW!
ZATO 4:12 If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree. Get out of my orchard and let my peaches be.
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati "Thats what Ive been doin fer the last frew posts. I havent posted to you in a while, you posted to me last night, dummy. " This is where I tell you, you are dilusional!! I did not post to you. I posted to caroham29, and proof of this, is we have been in dialogue in PM since I posted my comment to him! So, maybe you need to adjust your medication dude, because unless by some strange reason, you are actually caroham29, I never said a word to you.
Haukman66 3 months ago 5
@Haukman66 I sometimes think many of them are one guy, the way they go one after the other, and jump in forgetting which one was talked to.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 2
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@CaptainArrrgh
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm.110:1
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include GOD Himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son will be made subject to Him(GOD) who put everything under him, so that GOD may be all in all. 1Cor.15:27,28
THE LORD is the Father(Yahweh)
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 Who and what do you say Jesus is then?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 2
@epic103 Philippians 2:9-119Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago 2
@CaptainArrrgh
I agree!!!
Who exalted him??? Who gave him the name??? To the glory of WHO??????
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 The Father, יהוה And I don't think anybody here disputes that the Son, יֵשׁוּעַ is subject to Him, and it's still not contradictory to Him being GOD.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh
No, not just Father!! His GOD!!!
Remember, Jesus ascends not just to Father, but to his GOD!!! His GOD is our GOD, and his Father is our Father!!!
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 You notice how it doesn't just say God, but God the Father? What does that specification contrast with?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh
Because GOD is our Father!!! Not just GOD the Father, but GOD is our Father!!
GOD the(our) Father appears hundreds of times in the Bible!!
But there in no verse that says, GOD the Son or GOD the Holy Spirit!!
Jesus isn't called "GOD the Son" one time in Scripture, that speaks for itself!!
Because Father GOD is "Yahweh", the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!!
That's why Jesus said, our Father in heaven Hallowed be Your name!! The name of the Father!!
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, what is he? Of what species? What differs him from Adam, who also was called the son of God?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh
1st. What does begotten of GOD mean to you?? How was Jesus begotten??
2nd. Why was Jesus not called "GOD the Son"??? Why is only the Father called GOD our Father, but nowhere is Jesus called GOD the Son or GOD our Son??
3rd. Why is only the Father called the Most High, LORD of heaven and earth, and the only true GOD etc... ??
4th. Why would Jesus say the teachings(doctrine) is not his??? Because if he was GOD the teachings would be his, but he said NOT HIS??
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 1st: Psalm 2:7, Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5, 5:5, John 3:16, John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; I John 4:9 John 20:31, Hebrews 11:17 Luke 1:31-35,38 One of a kind, proceeding directly
2nd: John 10:30, Philippians 2:6, II Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9 Jesus is God
3rd: John 14:28, John 10:29, The Father is above All
4th: John 14:24, II John 1:9, John 16:13, The Son and the Spirit are both subject to the Father
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@CaptainArrrgh Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Acts 17:29
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
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@CaptainArrrgh
Captain, none of those verses answer any of my questions!!
1st. I asked how was Jesus begotten?? In other words, in what way??
2nd. John 10:30, Philippians 2:6, II Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9 don't prove Jesus is GOD!!
3rd. Jesus is never called the true GOD, Lord of heaven and earth, or the Most High GOD!!
4th. You never answered my question about John.7:16, what is your answer?? Why would Jesus say the teachings(doctrine) is not his???
epic103 3 months ago
@epic103 Psalm 82:8 how do you read that? Does that say God is inheriting something?
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
@zatoilluminati what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Haukman66 3 months ago
@Haukman66 oooo, nice post! You told me, lol.
Ok, sure, it wasnt you. It was an imposter. I am sure you have hundreds wanting to be you? lmao. I kicked you ass on the "firstborn of creation" and your only recourse is to start a fight..a little name calling to take the focus off me spanking that ass? Now, go awy, leave me alon. Go and lick your wounds and be a good boy. You cant win em all, actually YOU cant win any but thats another story.
ZATO 2:2 Poor Loser, Born Loser, same damn thing
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@Haukman66 Yo Baby Im gonna slap you up
Yea Baby Im gonna slap you up
Slap you up, Slap you up
Yo Babay I done slapped you up
Slapped you up
Slapped you up
lol
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@Haukman66 Lets reveal what you are hiding: Jesus is "Firstborn OF CREATION"
Jesus is:
Preminent of creation_first of all of creation
Heir of creation-tho one who will inherit over all of creation, all others created
Favorite of creation-favored of all others created
Number 1 of creation, ranked top over all creation-best thing created
first of creation-alpha dog, top dog, numero uno, BMOC of all of creation, of everybody else created
Firstborn does not mean created??? No kidding!
zatoilluminati 3 months ago
@barbsinclair
Sorry, but Matt.1:23, Isaiah.7:17, Isaiah.8:8-10 doesn't say GOD the Son!!!
And Acts.5:3,4 and Ths.4:8 doesn't say GOD the Holy Spirit!!!
The Holy Spirit is the power, anointing etc... from GOD(Father). The Father is the source!!!
Jesus said, the Father gives the Holy Spirit to those that ask Him. Luke.11:13 - Compare with Acts.2:4 and Acts.10:38
The Holy Spirit comes from the Most High Father(Yahweh).
Nice try though!!!
epic103 3 months ago
@Haukman66 That part about nobody having seen God, makes sense in that God told Moses, he could only look at his side or back but face to face would cause his death, yet God took a human form that was safe for Abraham to see.
CaptainArrrgh 3 months ago
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why do you believe in jesus, hun? you do know he was never actually a person, right? you havent seen the evidence?
guineapiggyman 3 months ago