Religion has been holding morality back for thousands of years. Finally secular humanist values like human rights are winning.
And then hearing a toad like you belonging to a religion with a long tradition of slavery, genocide, and witch-burning. A religion which have inspired hatred against women, black people and gays. The religion which drove the wheels of Hitlers war machine.
Please tell me again how I need your religion for moral guidance.
The fact that you cannot see the IMMORALITY of the religion you propose, let alone the sheer ridiculousness of accepting ANYTHING on "faith" alone, shows you to be an ignoramus of the highest order. Being able to speak clearly does not correct this flaw in your character; lots of snake oil salesmen can.
Okay. So you say "A self-caused universe does not communicate morality". Firstly, morality does not require a "cause" to the universe. Moral decisions are those that involve a social dynamic. Due to this, what is moral changes based upon the social system it is in. It is not "fixed" as you put it but changeable.
With a naturalistic world-veiw I can still concieve of a sense of obligation and a demand for it. I dont want people to kill me or steal my shit so I dont do it to other people. Simple.
specific culture or people. God's moral standard cannot be interpreted any other way than what it says. Scripture says that it is inspired by God, if one truly believes that then there can be no two ways about it.
This has nothing to do with my interpretation. The bible is very clear in what it says and it's message. When you stray outside of the essentials of the faith namely Jesus being the only source of salvation, the trinity, Jesus' divinity, the virgin birth, etc.; you do not have Christianity. This is what was foreshadowed in the OT and came into fruition in the NT. Sure, disagreements can be had about women preachers, etc because they can be interpreted as being meant for a....
There are different Christian denominations that have minor disagreements with non-essential doctrine. Conservative, biblically sound denominations all agree with the essentials of the faith, ie the virgin birth, the death and resurrection of Christ, and Chris's divinity among others. There are some who I wouldn't even consider Christians such as mormons. catholics, and the liberal denominations.
I don't want to fan your flames. But the argument that "a strong sense of morality comes from Christianity," or from any other religion is a very vague claim. Name ONE instance that you ABSOLUTELY NEEDED to draw upon scripture, or historical religious knowledge to reach a moral decision; name one.
In normal life, I don't think that the questions of morality is are that difficult to answer or justify plainly.
Your main problem is that you think that "christian morality" exists. All you have is sociatal morality and what your society has cherry-picked from the bible to defend its morality with.
For the record, Neitzche also said that "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point".
Given that you seem to be suggesting that Neitzche seems to have some credible authority when it comes to morality and Christianity (after all, you quoted him), I assume that you also consider this quote to hold true? Or is that just another example of the cherry picking that you fundies love to engage in?
@CrunchyMush For the record, AA said, "Neitzche, of all people, put it this way..." Meaning, that you WOULDN'T have normally expected him to have any credible authority on morality or Christianity, but IRONICALLY, he nailed the peg with this one. Hey, while we're on the topic of clocks, a broken one is still right twice a day, right? O;)
@CrunchyMush True Christians don't cherry pick the Bible. False prophets, who want to manipulate people into getting something from them, or just plain deceive people because they're the spawn of Satan, are the ones who cherry pick and twist the Bible.
Anyone who wants to really know what God says needs to prayerfully study the word, because you're not going to understand al 66 books in one sitting. Proper exegesis is about reading it IN CONTEXT... of the chapter, of the book, and of the whole
@CrunchyMush "In context," which is also how we should approach the words of people like Neitsche there. I don't know the context of AA's quote, but I'd be willing to bet that if we looked it up, he would be talkin about how to undermine Christianity & America's morality, to destroy it from within and then conquer. Socialist/communist dictators have been doing that for a very long time. It's gotten into public schools to convert kids as young as possible, and in hollywood to corrupt moral core
Do you ever actually attempt to back up anything you say with any kind of evidence or do you simply assert everything you think is correct as a truism and just hope the people listening don't think about it? Seriously... What is you specific definition of "oughtness" and "purpose" and what evidence do you have that they are a: common to all societies, b: inextricably bound or c: that either or neither of them aren't borne as naturally as every other social trait exhibited by animals?
WOW! Odd how one who has been exposed as a plagiarist (Mr. Brock Lawley) and (oh noes) a 9th Commandment breaker, should be prating on about morality. Check out YouTube user,antybu86's video titled, "TheAtheistAntidote and Dishonesty ", for evidence. You know, that thing that we rely upon to come to tenable conclusions.
YouTuber, Th1sWasATriumph, did a fine job at dismantling your failed and incoherent attempt at an argument, Brock. You should check it out.
Anyway, your faith in God is a cop-out. It's an assumption of truth despite the lack of any tenable evidence. OUGHT you be more interested in finding the truth than simply assuming it? Dan Barker also puts it well when he stated, "If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits."
Ummm religion is the broken watchmaker. God doesn't say anything humans don't already know. Why would you get your morality from a creature willing to drown a planet and willing to roast you apes eternally for finite transgressions. Your religion is not as moral as I am so it fails as a source of morality.
The difference between your truth and the atheist truth is that ours is grounded in reality. Your truth is grounded in a book of stories. Our path to truth is to study and understand things. Your path to truth is to look in your book of stories and if not there just say "god did it".
Your way is a cop out. Your way is a disengagement. Our way is to be fully engaged in life and the understanding of all things around us.
All people were atheists before they were brainwashed.
Brock, nobody fixed the "rules" or "commandments" of atheism. That's why saying "X", take your pick, Hitler, Stalin, Mao was an atheist doesn't work. The United States is the most religious country in the western world and the most Christian. Ergo, by your logic, it should be the most law-abiding. Is it?
1. A 'code of oughtness'? As in, a moral code? Or are you saying, a code of what 'ought' to be done?
2. You're assuming that morality existed before mankind. In fact, it's the opposite. Man kind 'invented' morality, during evolution, as a way for us to work together in a manageable community. Since we are social animals, we thrive when we are able to cooperate. Therefore, we evolved a 'code of conduct', if you will, so that we can better work together.
3. Further, if it was true that Christianity was the basis of morality, then the societies that existed before the rise of Christianity COULDN'T have existed, as they would have descended into anarchy. More over, if Christianity was the basis of all morality, then there would be no instances of Christians in jail. This is the opposite of the truth, where the only 'religious' group that is under represented in the prison populations is atheists.
I really don't understand why theists think a god is necessary for morality.
Without a god: we still have interactions with each other, we still have mirror neurons in our brains that make us empathetic to one another, and we are still social creatures who survive primarily because of our ability to cooperate.
On top of this, morality is obviously changing and progressing, which one wouldn't expect if it were divinely and timelessly ordained.
I really don't see any general moral superiority among atheists OR Xians.. It really just seems to depend more on the individual person, rather than what they believe..
You list off these observations about atheism and the new atheists, but you don't back them up with anything, you just state them. You say "we consistently see heat with no light, outrage with no sensitivity or appetite for real truth." I say that what you say isn't true. Then we're both just saying things. Which should one believe?
@TheAtheistAntidote, why must you insist on belittling others choices? What is it to you? Are you so threatened by others differing opinions that you feel the need to do this publicly? You can quote Nietzsche all you like, the reality is, this says FAR more about you than it does about anyone else.
Quote-mining Nietzsche. How cute. Of course, the "moral compass" is the same for everybody, believers and non-believers alike: it's the society we live in. Are you saying the Japanese are immoral, just because they're not very religious, let alone Christian? And don't point at the Bible for your morality, since that book is one of the most wicked works in history.
3) Not raping stealing and murdering (things done throughout the bible by 'moral' men) is not a divine revelation, and is absolutely not uniquely christian. It makes sense, and it's been law in pretty much every recorded civilization.
4) I'd call it a pretty strong obligation not to do such things that you'll be locked up and potentially executed for doing them.
5) Acrobatic word play, them fancy talkers with their logic and whathaveyou
6) Foundations = testicles? This isn't the 7th century BC..
1) No, oddness is deviation from expectation. If I see a blue banana, that's odd. Neither good nor bad, nothing to do with what a banana is supposed to do (which is nothing). Just odd.
2) You're right, some people need the notion of a punitive eternal figure to make them not rape steal and murder (are these the people who pack the churches?) - it doesn't make any work of fiction written to fulfill this need true. It doesn't mean everyone needs it.
Could you explain to me why the proportion of atheist to theists who commit crimes matches the total proportion? In other words, atheists as a whole have just as much 'morals' as theists, more specifically Christians.
Actually atheist humanists don't require a "moral compass" because we DO have a belief, one that I'm surprised no theist has pointed to and said, "There, you do believe in something." It is the belief that most people are inherently good, and they will create a society that ensures that sociopaths and damaged citizens don't cause much harm. To continue the metaphor, you will follow your broken clock even when it says it's noon while the sun is rising. We count the days by the sun's passage.
Not only is this guy a moron who nicks everything and claims it for him self. Wasn't "you can take that to the bank" of the film "Hard to Kill" with Steven Seagal. The bad guy politician says it all the time
How can this guy look in the mirror and stand it? After being exposed as a liar, thief, and hypocrite of the most ironic sort. He ends with "Take it to the bank." Like he did with the plagiarized stuff he was selling? And this was to put an exclamation point after saying those lacking his faith are morally groundless, let alone that he ironically slammed atheists for being vocal.
Been looking back at this comment exchange. Drop it. This guy is clearly twisting your words and spouting bullshit. Just like the blatant, exposed hypocrite who made this video - he will never feel constrained by logic, reason, and definitely not honesty.
breedofthe45: I removed my commnent, because i was not satisfied, and replaced it with the same argument. Why did YOU remove YOURS ? Too stupid maybe ? Why don`t you go and learn, how to write a decent sentence in your mothertongue. English is my fourth language. OK, Then come back, you might be taken more seriously.
i got mine there...but if you think hitler was working for god to help the jews with their land thats ok,im not the moron,you are and if you belive that please don't tell that to nobody,hide those comments and don't speak about it EVER AGAIN YOU HEAR,thats for your own good,if you keep feeding that bullshit in your head you gonna lose a lot of friends in the atheist movement.
Hitler was pro jew...ja,ja,ja...you got to be the most stupid atheist i have ever seen,i got your comments in my mail...
breedofthe45: Don`t twist my words around. It`s fact that the state of Israel was reestablished as a result of the extermination campaign of Hitler. Thus Hitler was instrumental in fulfilling this prophecy, mentioned in the bible. Hitler did God`s will.
What is of course nonsense, but that is the untenable conclusion one has to draw if you believe the Bible prophecy.
if i twist your words around,why you remove your comments?
maybe afraid anybody here that you know might see how you said Hitler was working for God to help the jews back to their land(when Israel did not even exists until 1942)hell Hitler was pro israel, ja
you better hide those comments...that show how some people use mind games and wait for someone to bite the bait for your atheist plasure.
do yourself a favor..read history and AFTER you read it you can do comments about it,not BEFORE,
Darwin has nothing to do with ,Eugenics which is most probably an invention of Hitler to cleanse the German race from foreign influences and impurities. It`s easy to see how Hitler`s Eugenics program might have been inspired by Darwins theory of the "survival of te fittest". Do you accept that the excesses of all the religions based on Christianity can be blamed on Christ ? So what as Darwin to do with Eugenics ? NOTHING.
Insults are an acknowledgment of defeat. Thank you. Now learn how to write a decent sentence in your language. English is only my 4th language, not my mothertongue.
According to you god told Hitler a prophecy about israel(when isreal[1942] by then wasn't there yet)Hitler for some reason want it to exterminate israel because of a prophecy in the bible?
thats your answer?so you know what god told Hitler?
but just like any extrimist religion i just say something about darwin's eugenics ideas by the leading scientist in germany at the time call eugenics and darwin is a saint?
tell us then how DARWINS name end up in the eugenics programs...and curses and nicknames is not gonna change the fact EUGENICS was better known as SOCIAL DARWINISM please im dying to know how you bastards gonna twist that one...what jesus came in a claud and put dirt in darwins name?
or Hitler love his religion sooo much he decide to make MANDATORY the studie of the theory of evolution by CHARLES DARWIN in EVERY GERMAN SCHOOL SYSTEM,tell us how that theory end up in german schools?
but according to you HITLER WAS A CREATIONIST,how come some one that ACCORDING TO YOU,kill people cause they were not part of GODS PLAN,but he decide to let his people DOUBT the same creator he was defending by teachin EVOLUTION(atheory against creationism) in every single frickin schools.
ohh maybe he belive in the theory of evolution but he did not want it to people know about it cause he was CATHOLIC like DAWKINS was before he found EVOLUTION?
breedofthe45: Listen my friend. I hope you know your bible OK. There isa prophecy in the bible: that the state of Israel will be restored. Will sir Hitler was the man, the instrument of god, who fulfilled this prophecy. So if you a grudge against Hitler, ask your god for an explanation, I don`t have any.
Hitlers scientific views served only one purpose, consolidating his power. He was not very educated and his scientific or other views are irrelevant except as stated above.
ok then..let see how this sounds.."Hitlers RELIGIOUS views served only one purpose,consolidating his power.He was not very educated and his RELIGIOUS or other views are irrelevant except as stated bellow.
hows that?
cherry picking bastards,let us know how the hell the evolution theory end up in german schools in Hitlers times since he was soooo religious then?
how the hell SOCIAL DARWINISM end up in germany under Hitlers orders better known as EUGENICS?
I will tell you what you can take to the bank. That Krock Lawley has never taken a modern philosophy class. Or even a critical thinking class. Hell even a business ethics class would do him some good.
I love this argument though, it basically says that without the bible Krock would not know that killing someone or raping a child is a bad thing....
Yes. Nietzsche did say that. Now read on until you actually understand. I know it's difficult but if you don't understand what's being said you just look stupid when quoting.
Of course one pulls the right of christian morality form under their feet... only to adopt what is more likely than not a far superior sense of morality and ethics.
Christianity is a joke, and its claims to moral authority denigrate what it means to be human.
Yeah, the same sense of morality and ethics that Hitler had. The goal of modern liberalism and is to blur the lines of "right" and "wrong" so that nearly anything is acceptable.
Firstly, if you wanted to make a valid point, you would not have used Adolf Hitler. Mao or Stalin would have been more fitting, seeing as they were actually atheists whereas Hitler was not.
But this is beside the point, I can easily point out several instances of gross immorality at the hands of the religious throughout history, which continue to this day.
Beliefs or lack thereof are ultimately unrelated to moral or immoral behaviour. I can name a long list of atheists who have acted morally to the best of their abilities throughout their entire lives. I can do the same with believers.
But to attribute morality to a deity; in other words to say that it comes from "God" not only renders much-needed debate on such questions nearly impossible, but it also debases the worth of a human being.
Clowd009: I love it when they come up with Hitler. Hitler was god`s instrument in the fulfilment of the bible prophecy that:-- Israel will be reestablished as a nation.The bible leads to the conclusion that Hitler did God`s will. Isn`t that great ?
IT IS,don't forget also the leading scientists that hitler(a creationist) enforce with something called EUGENICS(a.k.a social darwinism) i know those leading german scientists who became darwinists fanatics(like dawkins) who try to use darwin's views on the german structure of goverment,hell even Joseph Stalin also got the darwinian fever that lead to 60 million deaths(the crusades had 2 million death toll) i know darwin did not endorse eugenics,but he did not stop it since was his name in play.
of course,thats why we are here for...to finish the story about hitler,i love how atheist mention Hitler with his religious belives but not his SCIENTIFIC views who came from darwinists fanatics known as the LEADING SCIENTISTS.
yeah people need to hear "SUCH SHIT" and see for themselfs how atheists are playin with peoples heads,thats known as manipulation,Hitler did not belive in evolution but sure enough did not care since germany was the first who start teaching evolution under Hitler's years
You bastardize the teachings of a man far more intelligent than you will ever be. Nietzche taught ethics better by himself than the collected works of deluded, genocidal, slave keeping, misogynistic, human sacrificing people in the desert.
BTW I'm agnostic so I'm more than open to thoughts. I just think that irrational people should close their mouths if they're not willing to reference history, linguistics, language and culture. It's all necessary, it's how we communicate.
Like a thornbush in a drunkard's hand is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
It's not fair to tell atheists and agnostics that they're not looking for truth. It is really hard to define morality as exclusively christian when there have been philosophers from cultures before Christ. Also the evidence of these cultures predates the set creation of the world, around 6000 years ago? Right?
I think you need to learn to communicate. Saying little things like "take it to the bank''. It's sounds like a sheep bleeting. People at least want the illusion of rational thought.
It's for us to know that they are God's law, not He's alone. And the Bible doesn't just cover morality. It covers the parables and stories of the rough times in the Old Testaments and the story of Jesus Christ. And the Bible has lots of wisdom. You should take a look at the book of Ecclesiastes, very powerful message.
Very true. Atheism posits all morals are relative. Richard Dawkins says this is - "We are not like primates... we are primates." Hence, how then do we make any moral pronouncements of any kind? And so we dig ourselves into total ethical chaos. There is no up down left. For we are mere animals from a composition of atoms that had no prevision of what it was forming. How can we even say what is good and what is bad. Nothing is absolute anymore, for we are animals, and have killed God.
Morals aren't always tied to religion. Many people follow self morals.
It's not right to kill; It's not right to steal; It's not right to lie/cheat your way through things; It's not right to treat others wrongly if not treated wrongly first. I follow these and I'm an atheist.
If you view atheists as unmoral husks, then you deserve no more respect than what you give.
Atheism does not "posit" anything; for your statement to be true, infants (i.e., atheists) would have to think and talk about morality--- they do not. Also, it was a Christian Creationist who first pointed out that humans are primates (i.e., we are apes).
So where do Christians get their morality from? They can ask God just as well as anyone and hear the same silence. They have to get their morality from the same place as everyone else-- empathy, self-consistency, cultural norms, reason, and the benefits of social order.
Christians receive their moral law from the Bible. Written doctrine that was documented. Now, listen carefully, don't miss this point. We are not saying that, before God gave the 10 commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai, people didn't know that killing was bad. We are saying that these are God's law and He's alone. Hebrews 8:10 says - "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I am their God, and they my people." However, we are primates, evil and good does not exist.
No. Christians do not receive their moral law from the bible. Not modern, sane Christians at least. It completely fails as a moral guide. Take two pages of Leviticus and call me in the morning.
Modern pastors pick and choose the parts of the bible that are good, or ones that they can spin as good. If you want to attribute the five sources I mentioned earlier as God's "laws in their minds... and hearts", that's fine.
Good and evil do exist. Primate-ness has nothing to do with the proposition.
The whole watchmaker analogy is ludicrous. This is for two main reasons.
1. The moral concepts illustrated in the bible are not absolute or even divine, but (follow at least to a degree) social rules of the time.
2. The morality that you 'take' from the bible is not fixed. For example, you would agree that stoning homosexuals and children who talk back to their parents is wrong. Yet this is considered the right thing to do in the bible.
What was your argument? I heard no argument there.
I heard something about destroying religion destroys morality. If that's the case then how do we know that owning slaves is immoral? We don't have a single verse or passage in the ENTIRE bible that says it's not ok to own another human being.
Furthermore in the new testament it says to return slaves to their owners. Where is the morality?
Christians talk to God about his book and still can't agree on what morality is. So what is your argument
No it doesn't offer an objective morality. Objective means that it does not require any sort of intelligence to be true. Subjective requires some sort of intelligence.
Whether or not a supposed "God" created the rules doesn't ignore the fact that he is an intelligence and thus his decrees are still subjective.
God telling you to kill me because I don't believe in him wouldn't make killing me all of a sudden objectively moral. You'd have to be insane to think that God makes morality objective.
The first 3 of those commandments are all about how awesome God says he is, if he does in deed exist. They aren't morals they're ego boosts to a megalomaniac.
Thou shalt not have any other God's before me.
Thou shalt not worship graven images.
Thou shalt not use thy lord's name in vain.
Furthermore another one is respect thy mother and thy father. So if I am an abusive prick of a parent is the child supposed to respect me? What if I ditch him?
Children should respect their parents when they are protected, and cared for.
Tell me this. Why should a child respect an abusive parent. Why should a child respect a parent that sexually abuses them?
The bible makes no distinction about parents protecting thy little ones, and in fact even advocates selling your children to slavery. In fact the females sold as servants do not have as many rights as the manservants do.
The bible is nonsensical at best for the most part.
"The bible makes no distinction about parents protecting thy little ones, and in fact even advocates selling your children to slavery. In fact the females sold as servants do not have as many rights as the manservants do."
Would you like to prove that?
"The bible is nonsensical at best for the most part."
"4/10 are already useless as moral society laws "
God isn't pride, God is love. You over generalize his character, which is, unfortunately, a large fallacy.
Tell me why does God not want any other Gods? Because that would be leading you away from the real thing.
Graven images are way for people to overgeneralize something. The fact that I use the word God to describe a being, is more like something imaginary to you. So why make a picture? It's all trivial, and it has more bad.
"They aren't morals they're ego boosts to a megalomaniac."
That's quite a stereotype, but contrary to popular belief, you may want to study philosophy and theology before you take simple stereotypical atheist approaches to argument.
Think outside of the universe box? Most christians can't even think INSIDE the box. When astrologers were looking up to the sky and using math and cosmology to discover that the world was spherical they were branded as heretics.
Took a long time for the church to understand that the world was orbiting the sun as geocentricity was the norm. Heliocentrists were being branded as heretics once again and killed.
And since we've been to the moon, how does the tower of babel even make sense?
Society would be just like many other societies LONG predating Christianity which had the same structures in place. Even monkeys often live by the idea that killing everyone is a bad idea, that sharing is something beneficial to social creatures, etc...
Those laws are common sense. "I like my things, maybe it would be a bad idea to take someone else's things"
"I wouldn't want my wife to cheat on me, why would I covet my neighbors wife."
Christianity doesn't even seem to prevent much of this
Yes because I can talk to you and get a response. Something that never happened when I talked to God.
When I asked for just the slightest bit of help rekindling the heat and passion that God had provided so many other people, instead I felt the darkest coldest and emptiest feeling I had ever experienced.
I was listening to what preachers and proselatizers were saying and I did everything I could to put my heart into my prayers and belief in God, and didn't even so much as get a warm feeling.
That's pretty damn presumptuious to say that the reason why I didn't get an answer was because I didn't believe.
Besides to many people's personal accounts IF you are correct about my lack of belief (i DID believe in a God and you're an asshole for assuming you know me well enough to call me a liar on this subject) there are other people like Kirk Cameron who claims he did it as a joke, and who were convinced that a God does exist.
So his personal account renders your argument null and void.
Oh wow dude. Big freaking deal. I experienced the human emotion of doubt. Wow I'm a fucking terrible horrible person and should suffer for ALL eternity because God no longer cares about answering my prayers because I doubt a being even though I was praying in part for him to help relieve me of my doubt.
Wow at 17 years old I should have been a complete and utter believer with no reassurance that I was praying to the correct God out of the millions with absolutely no conclusive proof he was real
I don't watch videos sent to me through Youtube's "spam this video into someone's account" feature. If someone isn't sending me an email with the revlevance of the video, why I should watch it, and what they agree with and disagree with within the confines of the discussion... I won't watch it. I don't even go to that section because I get way too many spam videos.
Besides it's your choice not to believe in "thetans" so any problems you have are related to them am I wrong?
I'm not sending you spam videos, I'm simply sending you videos that deal with the topics since they take a large amount of time to discuss, if you don't watch them, then it's not my fault. It's your mistake. I'm not spamming you. Unfortunately, you fail to recognize this.
Why are you taking Scientology into this? I'm not a scientologist. The way you argue is saddening.
The reason why I brought up Scientology is because it's a religion and if you're going to make the argument "What if you're wrong" then you know what I can make that argument to with something that you would also agree is insanity.
I do not view your religion to any greater extent than scientology. I do not see either as being holier, more evil, more giving, or more of a scam.
I was religious, and my faith eventually guided me out of the religion. I cant come back
I'm not stubborn. I checked the videos that were sent to me, and I didn't see your username in that batch of hundreds.
Furthermore all I was saying was that I don't watch a video unless I'm being told why it is relevant in the first place. If you say that "This guy has a fool proof argument for God's existence" i'll be curious.
If you say "He's reading the parts of the bible that will tell you why your a sinner"
you have to give atheism more credit than that. It's a proposition in the logical sense. Now materialism; if you're familiar with alvin plantinga's work there is nothing within that school of thought that necessarily leads you to truth. that presupposition yields very weak explanatory power
I think you misunderstood the quote partly cuz you read it as two sepreate statements. Destitution is lack of the means of subsistence; utter poverty. Classical Atheism is bereft of philosophical arguments, logical accountability, and objective ethical foundation et cetera et cetera et cetera....
Can Christians come up with something better than the argument from morality?
I dont get my morality from god or the bible. I get my morality from empathy. I dont steal because I wouldnt want to be stolen from. I dont kill because I wouldnt want to be killed. I dont rape because I wouldnt want to be raped. Etc. I can empathize with the victims. That is how I know something is wrong or right. I dont need a God to tell me these things.
Morality is subjective. It varies depending upon which culture you belong to. In many african countries it is considered ok to cut a young girls clitoris off with a broken bottle. In this country we twist our childrens teeth with pieces of metal.
Not really. Like I said, empathy. I think the majority of people are moral because they dont want to hurt others. And I think most Christians are morally bankrupt. They dont obey the rules because they truly believe in them; they obey because they are afraid of retribution. They are usually the first ones to break the rules when they get any kind of power. Do you ever wonder why there are so many scandals surrounding priests and pastors?
Of course many people in history have been Christians, but they didn't necessarily act like Christians. The only reason why is because people are corrupted by power, regardless of who you are. Don't place it on one group.
What argument. I have basically said that myself. Im my society basis for all rules and laws would be that you dont harm another individual. Shit, it isnt hard to understand. There are a few laws that most of us can agree on: we dont want to be killed, we dont want to be injured, we dont want to be raped, we dont want to be stolen from etc. Those would be the basis for the laws. In America, there are far too many moral laws. For instance, prostitution is illegal.
Well then I'm going to kill you before you kill me. Then I'll go and kill everyone before they kill me. And then I'll probably end up dead because I won't have anyone to help me...
That's what a society with no morals is like.
If you want Christian morals well...
The bible says it's ok to own another human being as property. The bible says it's ok to beat your property as long as they don't die right away. The bible never once says it's wrong to own other humans.
It means that you are taking things out of context. First of all, communism isnt bad; there are just a lot of shitty communist governments. Secondly, communist dictatorships adopt atheism as a way to homogenize the country. This does not make atheism bad.
Japan also has one of the most strenuous education systems and one of the most competitive job markets. They also have less violent crimes, murders and teen pregnancies than the US.
Please explain to me how eating a fetus is even logical. Do they get pregnant just so they can have a baby and eat it? Why would they eat fetuses? It doesnt even make sense.
And never mind the fact that that does nothing to diminish atheism. Did you know that Hitler was a roman catholic and he believed that he was doing Gods work. I guess that says something about all Christians.
Logic= if you believe it , it's logical and solid. If you don't believe it, it's illogical. The arguments Brock presents ARE Logical. You just choose to ignore the Logic there in. It goes both ways. The more you ignore the truth, the closer it gets. Your wasting your time. (Oh man Morrissey would be pissed I took his words...love love)
Christian morality... The ultimate oxymoron.
Religion has been holding morality back for thousands of years. Finally secular humanist values like human rights are winning.
And then hearing a toad like you belonging to a religion with a long tradition of slavery, genocide, and witch-burning. A religion which have inspired hatred against women, black people and gays. The religion which drove the wheels of Hitlers war machine.
Please tell me again how I need your religion for moral guidance.
itsjustameme 2 months ago
That's nice. But it doesn't prove you're right about religion.
jquiets 6 months ago
Aaaaaaaaannd.. NephilimFree had a son.
Ital21 8 months ago
Comment removed
Zenhumanist 9 months ago
The fact that you cannot see the IMMORALITY of the religion you propose, let alone the sheer ridiculousness of accepting ANYTHING on "faith" alone, shows you to be an ignoramus of the highest order. Being able to speak clearly does not correct this flaw in your character; lots of snake oil salesmen can.
TKStoddart 9 months ago
Okay. So you say "A self-caused universe does not communicate morality". Firstly, morality does not require a "cause" to the universe. Moral decisions are those that involve a social dynamic. Due to this, what is moral changes based upon the social system it is in. It is not "fixed" as you put it but changeable.
With a naturalistic world-veiw I can still concieve of a sense of obligation and a demand for it. I dont want people to kill me or steal my shit so I dont do it to other people. Simple.
covac45 11 months ago
So many factories, so many bells...
dabigq 1 year ago
"Oughtness"? Really?
This guy is a legend in his own mind.
MrTruthAddict 1 year ago
@xxxFaustusxxx
At least half, if not more are not even biblically Christian. The rest of them don't disagree on the fundamentals.
1776iscoming 1 year ago
specific culture or people. God's moral standard cannot be interpreted any other way than what it says. Scripture says that it is inspired by God, if one truly believes that then there can be no two ways about it.
1776iscoming 1 year ago
@xxxFaustusxxx
This has nothing to do with my interpretation. The bible is very clear in what it says and it's message. When you stray outside of the essentials of the faith namely Jesus being the only source of salvation, the trinity, Jesus' divinity, the virgin birth, etc.; you do not have Christianity. This is what was foreshadowed in the OT and came into fruition in the NT. Sure, disagreements can be had about women preachers, etc because they can be interpreted as being meant for a....
1776iscoming 1 year ago
@xxxFaustusxxx
There are different Christian denominations that have minor disagreements with non-essential doctrine. Conservative, biblically sound denominations all agree with the essentials of the faith, ie the virgin birth, the death and resurrection of Christ, and Chris's divinity among others. There are some who I wouldn't even consider Christians such as mormons. catholics, and the liberal denominations.
1776iscoming 1 year ago
you're a plagiarist!
Anduril919 1 year ago
I don't want to fan your flames. But the argument that "a strong sense of morality comes from Christianity," or from any other religion is a very vague claim. Name ONE instance that you ABSOLUTELY NEEDED to draw upon scripture, or historical religious knowledge to reach a moral decision; name one.
In normal life, I don't think that the questions of morality is are that difficult to answer or justify plainly.
capoman1 1 year ago
Your main problem is that you think that "christian morality" exists. All you have is sociatal morality and what your society has cherry-picked from the bible to defend its morality with.
SezSays 1 year ago
For the record, Neitzche also said that "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point".
Given that you seem to be suggesting that Neitzche seems to have some credible authority when it comes to morality and Christianity (after all, you quoted him), I assume that you also consider this quote to hold true? Or is that just another example of the cherry picking that you fundies love to engage in?
CrunchyMush 1 year ago
@CrunchyMush For the record, AA said, "Neitzche, of all people, put it this way..." Meaning, that you WOULDN'T have normally expected him to have any credible authority on morality or Christianity, but IRONICALLY, he nailed the peg with this one. Hey, while we're on the topic of clocks, a broken one is still right twice a day, right? O;)
DiJohnny18 1 year ago
@CrunchyMush True Christians don't cherry pick the Bible. False prophets, who want to manipulate people into getting something from them, or just plain deceive people because they're the spawn of Satan, are the ones who cherry pick and twist the Bible.
Anyone who wants to really know what God says needs to prayerfully study the word, because you're not going to understand al 66 books in one sitting. Proper exegesis is about reading it IN CONTEXT... of the chapter, of the book, and of the whole
DiJohnny18 1 year ago
@CrunchyMush "In context," which is also how we should approach the words of people like Neitsche there. I don't know the context of AA's quote, but I'd be willing to bet that if we looked it up, he would be talkin about how to undermine Christianity & America's morality, to destroy it from within and then conquer. Socialist/communist dictators have been doing that for a very long time. It's gotten into public schools to convert kids as young as possible, and in hollywood to corrupt moral core
DiJohnny18 1 year ago
Do you ever actually attempt to back up anything you say with any kind of evidence or do you simply assert everything you think is correct as a truism and just hope the people listening don't think about it? Seriously... What is you specific definition of "oughtness" and "purpose" and what evidence do you have that they are a: common to all societies, b: inextricably bound or c: that either or neither of them aren't borne as naturally as every other social trait exhibited by animals?
CrunchyMush 1 year ago
If I beat a slave and it takes them 3 days to die the bible considers me moral. Only a monster would prescribe such bile.
grenangle 1 year ago
WOW! Odd how one who has been exposed as a plagiarist (Mr. Brock Lawley) and (oh noes) a 9th Commandment breaker, should be prating on about morality. Check out YouTube user,antybu86's video titled, "TheAtheistAntidote and Dishonesty ", for evidence. You know, that thing that we rely upon to come to tenable conclusions.
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
YouTuber, Th1sWasATriumph, did a fine job at dismantling your failed and incoherent attempt at an argument, Brock. You should check it out.
Anyway, your faith in God is a cop-out. It's an assumption of truth despite the lack of any tenable evidence. OUGHT you be more interested in finding the truth than simply assuming it? Dan Barker also puts it well when he stated, "If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits."
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
Ummm religion is the broken watchmaker. God doesn't say anything humans don't already know. Why would you get your morality from a creature willing to drown a planet and willing to roast you apes eternally for finite transgressions. Your religion is not as moral as I am so it fails as a source of morality.
PinkProgram 1 year ago
The difference between your truth and the atheist truth is that ours is grounded in reality. Your truth is grounded in a book of stories. Our path to truth is to study and understand things. Your path to truth is to look in your book of stories and if not there just say "god did it".
Your way is a cop out. Your way is a disengagement. Our way is to be fully engaged in life and the understanding of all things around us.
All people were atheists before they were brainwashed.
djkoch65 1 year ago
Brock, nobody fixed the "rules" or "commandments" of atheism. That's why saying "X", take your pick, Hitler, Stalin, Mao was an atheist doesn't work. The United States is the most religious country in the western world and the most Christian. Ergo, by your logic, it should be the most law-abiding. Is it?
RadarKat73080 1 year ago
Christians are so self important aren't you? Because we only "attack" Christians... lmao
DocStrange0123 1 year ago
1. A 'code of oughtness'? As in, a moral code? Or are you saying, a code of what 'ought' to be done?
2. You're assuming that morality existed before mankind. In fact, it's the opposite. Man kind 'invented' morality, during evolution, as a way for us to work together in a manageable community. Since we are social animals, we thrive when we are able to cooperate. Therefore, we evolved a 'code of conduct', if you will, so that we can better work together.
Acorafication 1 year ago
3. Further, if it was true that Christianity was the basis of morality, then the societies that existed before the rise of Christianity COULDN'T have existed, as they would have descended into anarchy. More over, if Christianity was the basis of all morality, then there would be no instances of Christians in jail. This is the opposite of the truth, where the only 'religious' group that is under represented in the prison populations is atheists.
Acorafication 1 year ago
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Pitfytr 1 year ago
I really don't understand why theists think a god is necessary for morality.
Without a god: we still have interactions with each other, we still have mirror neurons in our brains that make us empathetic to one another, and we are still social creatures who survive primarily because of our ability to cooperate.
On top of this, morality is obviously changing and progressing, which one wouldn't expect if it were divinely and timelessly ordained.
BrooklynRagtag 1 year ago
Are you saying that Atheist are Amoral???
If so your wrong on so many levels...
TheDano1947 1 year ago
I really don't see any general moral superiority among atheists OR Xians.. It really just seems to depend more on the individual person, rather than what they believe..
JesterAzazel 1 year ago
You list off these observations about atheism and the new atheists, but you don't back them up with anything, you just state them. You say "we consistently see heat with no light, outrage with no sensitivity or appetite for real truth." I say that what you say isn't true. Then we're both just saying things. Which should one believe?
LanceDirk 1 year ago
@TheAtheistAntidote, why must you insist on belittling others choices? What is it to you? Are you so threatened by others differing opinions that you feel the need to do this publicly? You can quote Nietzsche all you like, the reality is, this says FAR more about you than it does about anyone else.
Jude2Mahoney 1 year ago
fucking yanks, just stop it...
Darusdei 1 year ago
ah no, su un plagiario
Mokenofrs 1 year ago
Quote-mining Nietzsche. How cute. Of course, the "moral compass" is the same for everybody, believers and non-believers alike: it's the society we live in. Are you saying the Japanese are immoral, just because they're not very religious, let alone Christian? And don't point at the Bible for your morality, since that book is one of the most wicked works in history.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
3) Not raping stealing and murdering (things done throughout the bible by 'moral' men) is not a divine revelation, and is absolutely not uniquely christian. It makes sense, and it's been law in pretty much every recorded civilization.
4) I'd call it a pretty strong obligation not to do such things that you'll be locked up and potentially executed for doing them.
5) Acrobatic word play, them fancy talkers with their logic and whathaveyou
6) Foundations = testicles? This isn't the 7th century BC..
yarahahrwe 1 year ago
1) No, oddness is deviation from expectation. If I see a blue banana, that's odd. Neither good nor bad, nothing to do with what a banana is supposed to do (which is nothing). Just odd.
2) You're right, some people need the notion of a punitive eternal figure to make them not rape steal and murder (are these the people who pack the churches?) - it doesn't make any work of fiction written to fulfill this need true. It doesn't mean everyone needs it.
yarahahrwe 1 year ago
Could you explain to me why the proportion of atheist to theists who commit crimes matches the total proportion? In other words, atheists as a whole have just as much 'morals' as theists, more specifically Christians.
ginnyisdacoolest 1 year ago
Atheists rail against God? I don't think so... they don't believe in God... Their problem is with people like you (and to a lesser degree, myself).
ExpectationsShotgun 1 year ago
Why does there have to be morality?
dpfindgod 1 year ago
@dpfindgod you might go back to be an animal if you like. I rather be Human.
fitobcnfito 1 year ago
Actually atheist humanists don't require a "moral compass" because we DO have a belief, one that I'm surprised no theist has pointed to and said, "There, you do believe in something." It is the belief that most people are inherently good, and they will create a society that ensures that sociopaths and damaged citizens don't cause much harm. To continue the metaphor, you will follow your broken clock even when it says it's noon while the sun is rising. We count the days by the sun's passage.
IntrepidStranger 1 year ago
Not only is this guy a moron who nicks everything and claims it for him self. Wasn't "you can take that to the bank" of the film "Hard to Kill" with Steven Seagal. The bad guy politician says it all the time
123columbo123 1 year ago
@123columbo123 Quoting Steven Segal against Nietzche....seriosly? :-O
fitobcnfito 1 year ago
How can this guy look in the mirror and stand it? After being exposed as a liar, thief, and hypocrite of the most ironic sort. He ends with "Take it to the bank." Like he did with the plagiarized stuff he was selling? And this was to put an exclamation point after saying those lacking his faith are morally groundless, let alone that he ironically slammed atheists for being vocal.
shunyotube 2 years ago
100 percent honesty, you say. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.
You are a rippoff "artist". Thanks for stealing everybody elses work.
artwdog 2 years ago
breedofthe45:: I have news for you.I believe you can read. And I am NO atheist.
lizazoon 2 years ago
@Lizazoon,
Been looking back at this comment exchange. Drop it. This guy is clearly twisting your words and spouting bullshit. Just like the blatant, exposed hypocrite who made this video - he will never feel constrained by logic, reason, and definitely not honesty.
shunyotube 2 years ago
breedofthe45: I removed my commnent, because i was not satisfied, and replaced it with the same argument. Why did YOU remove YOURS ? Too stupid maybe ? Why don`t you go and learn, how to write a decent sentence in your mothertongue. English is my fourth language. OK, Then come back, you might be taken more seriously.
lizazoon 2 years ago
i got mine there...but if you think hitler was working for god to help the jews with their land thats ok,im not the moron,you are and if you belive that please don't tell that to nobody,hide those comments and don't speak about it EVER AGAIN YOU HEAR,thats for your own good,if you keep feeding that bullshit in your head you gonna lose a lot of friends in the atheist movement.
Hitler was pro jew...ja,ja,ja...you got to be the most stupid atheist i have ever seen,i got your comments in my mail...
breedofthe45 2 years ago
breedofthe45 Don`t twist my words. What I said is as logical as can be.
lizazoon 2 years ago
whatever help you sleep.. sports!!!
breedofthe45 2 years ago
breedofthe45: Don`t twist my words around. It`s fact that the state of Israel was reestablished as a result of the extermination campaign of Hitler. Thus Hitler was instrumental in fulfilling this prophecy, mentioned in the bible. Hitler did God`s will.
What is of course nonsense, but that is the untenable conclusion one has to draw if you believe the Bible prophecy.
lizazoon 2 years ago
what your are sayin is the bible said that then?
how did Hitler knew he was gonna lose?
so Hitler kill all those jews but deep inside he was helping them to stablish their own personal paradise?
im sorry but im alergic to bullshit,
thats the most stupid way of twisting a story as you did...Hitler help the jews to get back their promise land?
ja,ja,ja....tell that to the holocust survivors...ja,ja,ja
breedofthe45 2 years ago
if i twist your words around,why you remove your comments?
maybe afraid anybody here that you know might see how you said Hitler was working for God to help the jews back to their land(when Israel did not even exists until 1942)hell Hitler was pro israel, ja
you better hide those comments...that show how some people use mind games and wait for someone to bite the bait for your atheist plasure.
do yourself a favor..read history and AFTER you read it you can do comments about it,not BEFORE,
breedofthe45 2 years ago
Darwin has nothing to do with ,Eugenics which is most probably an invention of Hitler to cleanse the German race from foreign influences and impurities. It`s easy to see how Hitler`s Eugenics program might have been inspired by Darwins theory of the "survival of te fittest". Do you accept that the excesses of all the religions based on Christianity can be blamed on Christ ? So what as Darwin to do with Eugenics ? NOTHING.
lizazoon 2 years ago
Comment removed
breedofthe45 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
breedofthe45-- you liyin jew killer bastards--
Insults are an acknowledgment of defeat. Thank you. Now learn how to write a decent sentence in your language. English is only my 4th language, not my mothertongue.
lizazoon 2 years ago
According to you god told Hitler a prophecy about israel(when isreal[1942] by then wasn't there yet)Hitler for some reason want it to exterminate israel because of a prophecy in the bible?
thats your answer?so you know what god told Hitler?
but just like any extrimist religion i just say something about darwin's eugenics ideas by the leading scientist in germany at the time call eugenics and darwin is a saint?
darwin is pure like muhamed right?
social darwinism=genocide
tell the truth boy!
breedofthe45 2 years ago
Comment removed
lizazoon 2 years ago
ignorant?
tell us then how DARWINS name end up in the eugenics programs...and curses and nicknames is not gonna change the fact EUGENICS was better known as SOCIAL DARWINISM please im dying to know how you bastards gonna twist that one...what jesus came in a claud and put dirt in darwins name?
or Hitler love his religion sooo much he decide to make MANDATORY the studie of the theory of evolution by CHARLES DARWIN in EVERY GERMAN SCHOOL SYSTEM,tell us how that theory end up in german schools?
breedofthe45 2 years ago
--,tell us how that theory end up in german schools?--
The same way calculus or electro-magnetism ended up in your school. Science is science.
lizazoon 2 years ago
oohhh i see...because is science ahhh....
but according to you HITLER WAS A CREATIONIST,how come some one that ACCORDING TO YOU,kill people cause they were not part of GODS PLAN,but he decide to let his people DOUBT the same creator he was defending by teachin EVOLUTION(atheory against creationism) in every single frickin schools.
ohh maybe he belive in the theory of evolution but he did not want it to people know about it cause he was CATHOLIC like DAWKINS was before he found EVOLUTION?
breedofthe45 2 years ago
breedofthe45: Listen my friend. I hope you know your bible OK. There isa prophecy in the bible: that the state of Israel will be restored. Will sir Hitler was the man, the instrument of god, who fulfilled this prophecy. So if you a grudge against Hitler, ask your god for an explanation, I don`t have any.
lizazoon 2 years ago
Hitlers scientific views served only one purpose, consolidating his power. He was not very educated and his scientific or other views are irrelevant except as stated above.
lizazoon 2 years ago
ok then..let see how this sounds.."Hitlers RELIGIOUS views served only one purpose,consolidating his power.He was not very educated and his RELIGIOUS or other views are irrelevant except as stated bellow.
hows that?
cherry picking bastards,let us know how the hell the evolution theory end up in german schools in Hitlers times since he was soooo religious then?
how the hell SOCIAL DARWINISM end up in germany under Hitlers orders better known as EUGENICS?
atheists and mind games,thats how..
breedofthe45 2 years ago
breedofthe45: You stink of bias and hatred. ----,let us know how the hell the evolution theory end up in german schools in Hitlers times--
Exactly in the same way calculus was taught in german schools, Because evolution is science. Got it ?
lizazoon 2 years ago
I will tell you what you can take to the bank. That Krock Lawley has never taken a modern philosophy class. Or even a critical thinking class. Hell even a business ethics class would do him some good.
I love this argument though, it basically says that without the bible Krock would not know that killing someone or raping a child is a bad thing....
3rdworlds 2 years ago
LOL, "100% honesty"... "Take it to the bank" which bank? Lehman Brothers?
youstevek 2 years ago
Bats are birds, rabbits chew their own cud, insects have 4 legs, disease is caused by demons not germs, and the moon gives its own light.
I'm sorry, who's watch is off again?
KaseyAkira 2 years ago
@KaseyAkira PERFECT comment. thank you
MrYoutopia 2 years ago
Did you have any original idea or are you just repeating like a parrot who has spend too many time in church?
nyarlotep 2 years ago
This is too painful to watch. You even got Nietzche wrong.
SuperGrimmy 2 years ago
Yes. Nietzsche did say that. Now read on until you actually understand. I know it's difficult but if you don't understand what's being said you just look stupid when quoting.
CeraSeptem 2 years ago
Of course one pulls the right of christian morality form under their feet... only to adopt what is more likely than not a far superior sense of morality and ethics.
Christianity is a joke, and its claims to moral authority denigrate what it means to be human.
ISDP1337 2 years ago
Yeah, the same sense of morality and ethics that Hitler had. The goal of modern liberalism and is to blur the lines of "right" and "wrong" so that nearly anything is acceptable.
Clowd009 2 years ago
Firstly, if you wanted to make a valid point, you would not have used Adolf Hitler. Mao or Stalin would have been more fitting, seeing as they were actually atheists whereas Hitler was not.
But this is beside the point, I can easily point out several instances of gross immorality at the hands of the religious throughout history, which continue to this day.
ISDP1337 2 years ago
Beliefs or lack thereof are ultimately unrelated to moral or immoral behaviour. I can name a long list of atheists who have acted morally to the best of their abilities throughout their entire lives. I can do the same with believers.
But to attribute morality to a deity; in other words to say that it comes from "God" not only renders much-needed debate on such questions nearly impossible, but it also debases the worth of a human being.
ISDP1337 2 years ago
Clowd009: I love it when they come up with Hitler. Hitler was god`s instrument in the fulfilment of the bible prophecy that:-- Israel will be reestablished as a nation.The bible leads to the conclusion that Hitler did God`s will. Isn`t that great ?
lizazoon 2 years ago
IT IS,don't forget also the leading scientists that hitler(a creationist) enforce with something called EUGENICS(a.k.a social darwinism) i know those leading german scientists who became darwinists fanatics(like dawkins) who try to use darwin's views on the german structure of goverment,hell even Joseph Stalin also got the darwinian fever that lead to 60 million deaths(the crusades had 2 million death toll) i know darwin did not endorse eugenics,but he did not stop it since was his name in play.
breedofthe45 2 years ago
breedofthe45: You are bleating the most pure nonsense. Congratulations. I didn`t hear such shit for a long time. Thanks.
lizazoon 2 years ago
of course,thats why we are here for...to finish the story about hitler,i love how atheist mention Hitler with his religious belives but not his SCIENTIFIC views who came from darwinists fanatics known as the LEADING SCIENTISTS.
yeah people need to hear "SUCH SHIT" and see for themselfs how atheists are playin with peoples heads,thats known as manipulation,Hitler did not belive in evolution but sure enough did not care since germany was the first who start teaching evolution under Hitler's years
breedofthe45 2 years ago
You bastardize the teachings of a man far more intelligent than you will ever be. Nietzche taught ethics better by himself than the collected works of deluded, genocidal, slave keeping, misogynistic, human sacrificing people in the desert.
KyleMc2009 2 years ago
BTW I'm agnostic so I'm more than open to thoughts. I just think that irrational people should close their mouths if they're not willing to reference history, linguistics, language and culture. It's all necessary, it's how we communicate.
Like a thornbush in a drunkard's hand is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
PsychoticCat723 2 years ago
It's not fair to tell atheists and agnostics that they're not looking for truth. It is really hard to define morality as exclusively christian when there have been philosophers from cultures before Christ. Also the evidence of these cultures predates the set creation of the world, around 6000 years ago? Right?
I think you need to learn to communicate. Saying little things like "take it to the bank''. It's sounds like a sheep bleeting. People at least want the illusion of rational thought.
PsychoticCat723 2 years ago
It's for us to know that they are God's law, not He's alone. And the Bible doesn't just cover morality. It covers the parables and stories of the rough times in the Old Testaments and the story of Jesus Christ. And the Bible has lots of wisdom. You should take a look at the book of Ecclesiastes, very powerful message.
GENESISaFigment 2 years ago
owned
uwmbigb 2 years ago
wow what a small minded human
choppamx 2 years ago
"Acrobatic word-play"
Just like all your videos.
Floral language doesn't help solidify your arguement. Either it intimidates people or it makes them view you as being arrogant.
In this case, it's more of the latter.
JTrizzleFizzle 2 years ago
Very true. Atheism posits all morals are relative. Richard Dawkins says this is - "We are not like primates... we are primates." Hence, how then do we make any moral pronouncements of any kind? And so we dig ourselves into total ethical chaos. There is no up down left. For we are mere animals from a composition of atoms that had no prevision of what it was forming. How can we even say what is good and what is bad. Nothing is absolute anymore, for we are animals, and have killed God.
GENESISaFigment 2 years ago
Morals aren't always tied to religion. Many people follow self morals.
It's not right to kill; It's not right to steal; It's not right to lie/cheat your way through things; It's not right to treat others wrongly if not treated wrongly first. I follow these and I'm an atheist.
If you view atheists as unmoral husks, then you deserve no more respect than what you give.
JTrizzleFizzle 2 years ago
Atheism does not "posit" anything; for your statement to be true, infants (i.e., atheists) would have to think and talk about morality--- they do not. Also, it was a Christian Creationist who first pointed out that humans are primates (i.e., we are apes).
Desertphile 2 years ago
Hey sweet, its desertphile!
joshcena33 2 years ago
So where do Christians get their morality from? They can ask God just as well as anyone and hear the same silence. They have to get their morality from the same place as everyone else-- empathy, self-consistency, cultural norms, reason, and the benefits of social order.
hugesinker 2 years ago
Christians receive their moral law from the Bible. Written doctrine that was documented. Now, listen carefully, don't miss this point. We are not saying that, before God gave the 10 commandments to Moses on Mt. Sinai, people didn't know that killing was bad. We are saying that these are God's law and He's alone. Hebrews 8:10 says - "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I am their God, and they my people." However, we are primates, evil and good does not exist.
GENESISaFigment 2 years ago
No. Christians do not receive their moral law from the bible. Not modern, sane Christians at least. It completely fails as a moral guide. Take two pages of Leviticus and call me in the morning.
Modern pastors pick and choose the parts of the bible that are good, or ones that they can spin as good. If you want to attribute the five sources I mentioned earlier as God's "laws in their minds... and hearts", that's fine.
Good and evil do exist. Primate-ness has nothing to do with the proposition.
hugesinker 2 years ago
message me your argument. I have much to say. (if you want.)
GENESISaFigment 2 years ago
The whole watchmaker analogy is ludicrous. This is for two main reasons.
1. The moral concepts illustrated in the bible are not absolute or even divine, but (follow at least to a degree) social rules of the time.
2. The morality that you 'take' from the bible is not fixed. For example, you would agree that stoning homosexuals and children who talk back to their parents is wrong. Yet this is considered the right thing to do in the bible.
ThMrksman 2 years ago
What was your argument? I heard no argument there.
I heard something about destroying religion destroys morality. If that's the case then how do we know that owning slaves is immoral? We don't have a single verse or passage in the ENTIRE bible that says it's not ok to own another human being.
Furthermore in the new testament it says to return slaves to their owners. Where is the morality?
Christians talk to God about his book and still can't agree on what morality is. So what is your argument
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Religion destroys morality?
Commonly inside analytical philosophy, we study morals and the meaning of life.
But what many of us, if not all, come to realize that morals and the meaning of life are either objective or arbitrary when it is secular.
Religion, whether you like it or not, offers a base of objective morality (i.e. God) and explains a meaning in life.
Personally being a Christian.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
No it doesn't offer an objective morality. Objective means that it does not require any sort of intelligence to be true. Subjective requires some sort of intelligence.
Whether or not a supposed "God" created the rules doesn't ignore the fact that he is an intelligence and thus his decrees are still subjective.
God telling you to kill me because I don't believe in him wouldn't make killing me all of a sudden objectively moral. You'd have to be insane to think that God makes morality objective.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Morals aren't defined by intelligence.
God is an absolute being. His nature is good, therefore the good he imposes is absolute, it's not a matter of intelligence.
Let me make this clear.
God would never ask me to kill you. God cannot go against his word, it's simple.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
oh by the way, handpicking concepts from the Bible doesn't do anything.
Agree on morality?
That can be debated of course, though there's something I'd like to establish.
First of all, Christians agree on the ten commandments (moral laws).
Minor disputes are more directed towards the meaning of stories in the Bible, though they still all share the same base principles and meaning.
Second of all, that is purely a claim, and is not verifiable.
Third, look up Theology.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
The first 3 of those commandments are all about how awesome God says he is, if he does in deed exist. They aren't morals they're ego boosts to a megalomaniac.
Thou shalt not have any other God's before me.
Thou shalt not worship graven images.
Thou shalt not use thy lord's name in vain.
Furthermore another one is respect thy mother and thy father. So if I am an abusive prick of a parent is the child supposed to respect me? What if I ditch him?
4/10 are already useless as moral society laws
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
God is defined by love, not pride. God hates pride.
You see, your argument deals with your arbitrary belief in the existence of secular morals.
Unfortunately, this cannot be, your reasoning is not correct, or rather fallacious.
I'll go into detail.
Why should Children respect their parents?
Tell me. Have you ever seen a fight be resolved when another person refuses to let go of pride? No.
God is a passionate person, he doesn't want to put your time and money into something(cont)
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Children should respect their parents when they are protected, and cared for.
Tell me this. Why should a child respect an abusive parent. Why should a child respect a parent that sexually abuses them?
The bible makes no distinction about parents protecting thy little ones, and in fact even advocates selling your children to slavery. In fact the females sold as servants do not have as many rights as the manservants do.
The bible is nonsensical at best for the most part.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Why should humans respect humans?
"The bible makes no distinction about parents protecting thy little ones, and in fact even advocates selling your children to slavery. In fact the females sold as servants do not have as many rights as the manservants do."
Would you like to prove that?
"The bible is nonsensical at best for the most part."
Stereotype....
Don't make senseless claims :(
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
"4/10 are already useless as moral society laws "
God isn't pride, God is love. You over generalize his character, which is, unfortunately, a large fallacy.
Tell me why does God not want any other Gods? Because that would be leading you away from the real thing.
Graven images are way for people to overgeneralize something. The fact that I use the word God to describe a being, is more like something imaginary to you. So why make a picture? It's all trivial, and it has more bad.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
"They aren't morals they're ego boosts to a megalomaniac."
That's quite a stereotype, but contrary to popular belief, you may want to study philosophy and theology before you take simple stereotypical atheist approaches to argument.
Think outside of the universe box :)
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Think outside of the universe box? Most christians can't even think INSIDE the box. When astrologers were looking up to the sky and using math and cosmology to discover that the world was spherical they were branded as heretics.
Took a long time for the church to understand that the world was orbiting the sun as geocentricity was the norm. Heliocentrists were being branded as heretics once again and killed.
And since we've been to the moon, how does the tower of babel even make sense?
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
"Most christians can't even think INSIDE the box."
Stereotype.....
What the church did back then was wrong of course, but it was an abuse of power, not a command of God.
Also, how does comparing old Christians to Christians today accurate at all?
That's like me comparing you to Ho Chi Minh.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
So the other 6 laws.
Tell me what society would be if no one cared about these laws.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Society would be just like many other societies LONG predating Christianity which had the same structures in place. Even monkeys often live by the idea that killing everyone is a bad idea, that sharing is something beneficial to social creatures, etc...
Those laws are common sense. "I like my things, maybe it would be a bad idea to take someone else's things"
"I wouldn't want my wife to cheat on me, why would I covet my neighbors wife."
Christianity doesn't even seem to prevent much of this
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Well personally I believe why is because that God gave everyone a moral conscience regardless.
You do know that many animal kill right?
Well what's wrong with getting cheated on?
Why is is wrong to hurt someone?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Yes, these are moral laws in respect to God.
The others are moral laws in respect to people.
God and Man are very difference, if you've noticed.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Yes because I can talk to you and get a response. Something that never happened when I talked to God.
When I asked for just the slightest bit of help rekindling the heat and passion that God had provided so many other people, instead I felt the darkest coldest and emptiest feeling I had ever experienced.
I was listening to what preachers and proselatizers were saying and I did everything I could to put my heart into my prayers and belief in God, and didn't even so much as get a warm feeling.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
The only reason you don't get a response is because you don't even believe something is there when you're talking.
You don't lean on the shovel and pray for a hole.
Again, the reason why you didn't get a warm feeling is because you never believed he was there in the first place.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
That's pretty damn presumptuious to say that the reason why I didn't get an answer was because I didn't believe.
Besides to many people's personal accounts IF you are correct about my lack of belief (i DID believe in a God and you're an asshole for assuming you know me well enough to call me a liar on this subject) there are other people like Kirk Cameron who claims he did it as a joke, and who were convinced that a God does exist.
So his personal account renders your argument null and void.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Well then allow to correct myself, and make another point.
How did you know that he completely believed in God?
Even if you did, then you began doubting anyways.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Oh wow dude. Big freaking deal. I experienced the human emotion of doubt. Wow I'm a fucking terrible horrible person and should suffer for ALL eternity because God no longer cares about answering my prayers because I doubt a being even though I was praying in part for him to help relieve me of my doubt.
Wow at 17 years old I should have been a complete and utter believer with no reassurance that I was praying to the correct God out of the millions with absolutely no conclusive proof he was real
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
Well that's not what I'm implying. Everyone's a horrible person one way or another. Calm down.
Even I am.
(It's your choice to not believe in God, therefore it is your choice to go to hell or not)
Correct God, I'll send you a video and show you why.
Non-conclusive? Didn't I send you several videos discussing the topic?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
I don't watch videos sent to me through Youtube's "spam this video into someone's account" feature. If someone isn't sending me an email with the revlevance of the video, why I should watch it, and what they agree with and disagree with within the confines of the discussion... I won't watch it. I don't even go to that section because I get way too many spam videos.
Besides it's your choice not to believe in "thetans" so any problems you have are related to them am I wrong?
It's a dumb argument
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
I'm not sending you spam videos, I'm simply sending you videos that deal with the topics since they take a large amount of time to discuss, if you don't watch them, then it's not my fault. It's your mistake. I'm not spamming you. Unfortunately, you fail to recognize this.
Why are you taking Scientology into this? I'm not a scientologist. The way you argue is saddening.
I'm talking about God here. God.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
I haven't seen those videos.
The reason why I brought up Scientology is because it's a religion and if you're going to make the argument "What if you're wrong" then you know what I can make that argument to with something that you would also agree is insanity.
I do not view your religion to any greater extent than scientology. I do not see either as being holier, more evil, more giving, or more of a scam.
I was religious, and my faith eventually guided me out of the religion. I cant come back
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
"I haven't seen those videos"
Then watch them.
"I was religious, and my faith eventually guided me out of the religion. I cant come back "
They call that being close minded.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
If you refuse to watch the videos I send you, then I simply refuse to talk to someone who is stubborn.
Open up your mind.
I'm not sending videos to spam you. In fact, I don't even spam.
I send videos directly relating to the topics we discuss, and if you refuse to watch them the who's fault is it?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
I'm not stubborn. I checked the videos that were sent to me, and I didn't see your username in that batch of hundreds.
Furthermore all I was saying was that I don't watch a video unless I'm being told why it is relevant in the first place. If you say that "This guy has a fool proof argument for God's existence" i'll be curious.
If you say "He's reading the parts of the bible that will tell you why your a sinner"
or "this is why Atheism is a religion"
Then I know they're an idiot already.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
I did in fact send you videos, don't deny that, if you really did care, then why don't you bother watching videos?
And if you couldn't find mine, why didn't you just delete ones that weren't from me?
"Then I know they're an idiot already. "
Have you ever studied theology and philosophy, if you haven't, then your in no position to say that statement.
What's your IQ? I'd seriously like to know.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@makaisenki
God cares about everyone regardless of who it is.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
He sure doesn't seem to show it.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
The reason why you don't see it is because people have free will, allowing them to do evil.
God works through people, back then he worked through the prophets and Jesus.
The people God works through specifically now are the Church.
Have your heard of Organizations such as World Vision?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Biological leash. Google it you failure
SadisticProductions 2 years ago
you have to give atheism more credit than that. It's a proposition in the logical sense. Now materialism; if you're familiar with alvin plantinga's work there is nothing within that school of thought that necessarily leads you to truth. that presupposition yields very weak explanatory power
imermiguel 2 years ago
I think you misunderstood the quote partly cuz you read it as two sepreate statements. Destitution is lack of the means of subsistence; utter poverty. Classical Atheism is bereft of philosophical arguments, logical accountability, and objective ethical foundation et cetera et cetera et cetera....
imermiguel 2 years ago
Can Christians come up with something better than the argument from morality?
I dont get my morality from god or the bible. I get my morality from empathy. I dont steal because I wouldnt want to be stolen from. I dont kill because I wouldnt want to be killed. I dont rape because I wouldnt want to be raped. Etc. I can empathize with the victims. That is how I know something is wrong or right. I dont need a God to tell me these things.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
Ok you don't want to be killed.
But why is it wrong?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Well, I cant say that is 100% wrong. Just that I wouldnt want it to happen to me.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
Well of course you wouldn't want it to happen to you.
But that doesn't make it wrong.
In which case it doesn't make it immoral or moral.
Meaning ultimately, that immoral and moral would be non-existent in your view. :)
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
It just means that I accept that morality is not absolute.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
Although you put it that way, you must realize morality is either absolute or nonexistent, there is no -in between-.
Because if it's not absolute, then I could think that murdering was the right thing to do.
Though this would probably conflict what you believe.
So how do we know what's right?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Morality is subjective. It varies depending upon which culture you belong to. In many african countries it is considered ok to cut a young girls clitoris off with a broken bottle. In this country we twist our childrens teeth with pieces of metal.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
I know that you believe morality is subjective.
But if it's subjective, then it holds no real meaning.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Yeah, it doesnt have any real meaning. It just helps culture keep some kind of order.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
Well once society learns to accept that is has no meaning in a secular worldview.
This could be a catastrophe.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
Not really. Like I said, empathy. I think the majority of people are moral because they dont want to hurt others. And I think most Christians are morally bankrupt. They dont obey the rules because they truly believe in them; they obey because they are afraid of retribution. They are usually the first ones to break the rules when they get any kind of power. Do you ever wonder why there are so many scandals surrounding priests and pastors?
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
"Do you ever wonder why there are so many scandals surrounding priests and pastors? "
That's a stereotype.
Christians aren't necessarily inclined to do things that are good because they are afraid. That's a fallacy. I do good things because they are good.
But still haven't given me a good reason why I should believe there's such a things as good and evil in a atheist view.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
"And I think most Christians are morally bankrupt. "
We don't follow because of fear, that's the wrong way.
You overgeneralize Christians.
"They are usually the first ones to break the rules when they get any kind of power."
Then they're not following Christian principles. Anyways, most people claim to be Christian (like people who are "emo" or "goth".)
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
Of course many people in history have been Christians, but they didn't necessarily act like Christians. The only reason why is because people are corrupted by power, regardless of who you are. Don't place it on one group.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
Also, you still assume that you can atheistically have the authority the presume morals.
Haven't I explained to you that morals don't exist in a secular view?
You can't give me a good reason to believe why morals are wrong or right.
Your argument falls apart.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
What argument. I have basically said that myself. Im my society basis for all rules and laws would be that you dont harm another individual. Shit, it isnt hard to understand. There are a few laws that most of us can agree on: we dont want to be killed, we dont want to be injured, we dont want to be raped, we dont want to be stolen from etc. Those would be the basis for the laws. In America, there are far too many moral laws. For instance, prostitution is illegal.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
Well then I'm going to kill you before you kill me. Then I'll go and kill everyone before they kill me. And then I'll probably end up dead because I won't have anyone to help me...
That's what a society with no morals is like.
If you want Christian morals well...
The bible says it's ok to own another human being as property. The bible says it's ok to beat your property as long as they don't die right away. The bible never once says it's wrong to own other humans.
Is slave owning moral?
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki
If you ever properly studied history.
Slavery back then was MUCH different from slavery now.
You see, slavery was never racially biased or abusive back then.
It was similar to having a butler, you simply worked for the person to pay off debts, they didn't whip you, that's an old argument.
Pathetic.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
And what if I said that 98% of high ranking communist officials are atheist?
Japan is over 65% atheist, the suicide rate is 100 people EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Vietnam is in poverty, China is in poverty, Cambodia is in poverty.
In parts on China, people will eat human fetuses.
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
It means that you are taking things out of context. First of all, communism isnt bad; there are just a lot of shitty communist governments. Secondly, communist dictatorships adopt atheism as a way to homogenize the country. This does not make atheism bad.
Japan also has one of the most strenuous education systems and one of the most competitive job markets. They also have less violent crimes, murders and teen pregnancies than the US.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
Please explain to me how eating a fetus is even logical. Do they get pregnant just so they can have a baby and eat it? Why would they eat fetuses? It doesnt even make sense.
And never mind the fact that that does nothing to diminish atheism. Did you know that Hitler was a roman catholic and he believed that he was doing Gods work. I guess that says something about all Christians.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
@RaidenTheAlmighty
If you actually studied Hitler,
1. He rejected Catholicism at an early age
2. We don't consider Hitler a Christian.
3. Why is Hitler wrong?
mikeytheaznking 2 years ago
I was just giving you a pointless argument like you gave me.
RaidenTheAlmighty 2 years ago
'2. We don't consider Hitler a Christian.'
Irrelevant, because he considered himself a christian. You don't decide who is christian. The individual does.
ThMrksman 2 years ago
I stated non-believers are ungrateful to God.
desertTRUTH 2 years ago
Logic= if you believe it , it's logical and solid. If you don't believe it, it's illogical. The arguments Brock presents ARE Logical. You just choose to ignore the Logic there in. It goes both ways. The more you ignore the truth, the closer it gets. Your wasting your time. (Oh man Morrissey would be pissed I took his words...love love)
lotusespritguy 2 years ago
You're grateful to God for causing the sun to shine on us ?
Gratitude to family and friends is a great thing - I agree. And gratitude to God is even more appropriate.
Best.
desertTRUTH 2 years ago