Sherwin Nuland: My history of electroshock therapy

[dafranx]

Electroshock therapy is nothing but a contemporary torture device, used to fry people's brains because they think and act differently than other people.

[BestAtNothing]

@dafranx Narrow minded nonsense.

[macdisciple]

I had electroshock therapy from October to November, 2010. It left me feeling a little foggy after each session, but I feel no lingering effects one year later. I am not free and clear of depression, but I was able to move out on my own, and hold down a job. I've made a few casual friends as well. Overall my mood improved measurably, I still feel down, but not in the deep and dark pit of despair I was in previously.

[Mojojojones]

Fantastic TED talk. Thank you Serwin Nuland.

[HeadBangar1030]

I find this very difficult to masturbate too...

[erikawa11]

Although I have never had this level of depression, I have recommended ECT rarely for clients who have not responded to other options. I will always remember the 'Cuckoo's Nest' version in my mind, but I have seen results in patients as a last resort. Power to Sherwin and others who have no other option.

[mdcombs79]

There is a CURE for deep Depression, Despair, and Hopelessness. I was in the Chains of Hopelessness for years and couldn't find anyway out. I used my Addictions to cover up the pains I was feeling. But now I am finally Free and have so much Hope, Joy, Happiness, Peace, and Love that I have ever experienced. There are 100s of people that I know personally who have experienced the same things! Click on my name to see these Powerful Stories of Hope and Freedom. You can have the same also!

[palleagle1]

BABARIC  and now ???

[exhaustedfiles]

For anyone who is against ECT all i can ask is what alternatives do you offer? When medication of the highest dose fails & counseling & psychotherapy fails & all you want to do is die then ECT becomes the last resort. Clearly as seen above it is an effective treatment. If i had depression and all the other treatments failed i would welcome somebody to zap my brain if it meant a 2nd chance at life because the only other alternative is to commit suicide which is not a solution to depression

[SassyKittyClaws]

Thank you for sharing your story. Your an inspiration to me. Here's hoping that more traumatized people are able to over come like you have.

[atwaterpub]

Butchers. One size does not fit all.

ECT is promoted by the same people who think that industrial productivity is the best measure of the quality of life.

[playthatrola22]

 i look up too him, i hope some day i can be a Doctor like him ^^

[1ngmar8ergman]

There are many stereotypes when it comes to ECT. The CoS has its dogma that ETC must be stopped to any cost! It is an utterly irresponsible agenda coming from someone who has no real experience what a deep depression can do to a person. It is a dark state. It's torture. It can be fatal. ECT has proved to be a life-saver. BUT! The patient MUST ALWAYS be made fully aware of that ECT in rare cases can cause irreversable memory damage. And the patient must never be forced to have ETC.

[phicubed]

Enjoy your fried brain. I'll use weed to fry mine thx.

[photo986]

Electroshock therapy. Did you know that in the late 1950's the CIA paid a Dr Cameron in montreal to carry out secret brainwashing experiments He used LSD Massive electric shock several time more that what was considered acceptable and weeks of sleep while a brainwash tape played The ECT earsed permanently som of my memories I am telling my Story On You Tube called youkilledyourmother

[drpatriciahill]

This is a very inspiring story, especially from a professional point of view, and especially coming from a medical doctor who has experienced this himself. Many times all treatments fail in these kinds of illnesses, and knowing that there are alternatives other than institutionalization, incarceration and even early death is very hopeful for anyone who suffers from severe depression or mania....

[Fma42081]

Electroshock + Stupidity +Ignorance = Fried Brain Cells *BAN ECT NOW* Its old archaic and only does more bad then good

next time your Dr asks you to get ect why don't you ask him to stick his head in the electrical socket

[Honker66]

muttering gibberish  LOL

[HLecterPHD]

AMAZING

[DSBrekus]

No offense but that is a ridiculous statement lmao

[Tizmahn]

I think you're right.

[TheMathGuy]

How thankful I am that most of society does not think like you, draziom99. I am thankful that we have moved on from superstition based medicine to evidence based medicine. If most of society thought like you, we would still be trying to "exorcize" plague, flu, schizophrenia, and who knows what else.

[fkd247]

" ahh fuckit! "

[sonyanatasha]

Thank you, S. Nuland. Re the "con" arguments, no one should dare to argue against ECT who has not experienced profound depression themselves. What do they know? Nothing. Am trying to decide whether to do it. With a child, suicide is out. I'm afraid of (more) memory loss, as depression also has that effct, but don't see other choices. Now let's see if my so called health insurance, which has eaten up so much of my salary for all my working life, will pay. It seems to pay for nothing else.

[sd41308]

@sonyanatasha I have recently been in your situation. and have been going through ECT. I strongly reccomend a lot of research. i remember my last ect. not something that i should have had the anesthesiologist done her job. something u do not want. also, it causes brain damage. permanent. never to be regained. please take the time to research. i too felt i had no other options.

[mizanaa]

God bless you i am happy to listen your history i have deprssion since 12 years i don't know what i do now i have thought for sucidal please help me and suggest me what i have to is ECT is good work or barain damage permenantly.. and how it cost i don't have mony to pay lots please tell me about that

[Fortozero]

Try going to see a doctor and tell him/her how you feel and what's been troubling you. They may be able to prescribe you something based on what you tell them, or perhaps just a simple anti-depressant. Otherwise, just try keeping your attitude positive and make an effort to be especially nice to everyone - you'll find it can often make you feel a lot better about yourself. Hope you feel better soon :)

[Encefalus]

A very interesting view

[rosannarosie62]

I enjoyed this video about such a complex and controversial subject which was very simply put and very humorous. Living with depression all my life, today I considered this method. That is how I found it. The idea was conceived first. I am yet not still convinced. I already forget things and at my mid-40's I don't know if I can handle forgetting more stuff. I was impressed that as a surgeon, he admitted to his condition being that very few people in his position would or do. It was a 20.

[rosannarosie62]

I enjoyed this video about such a complex and controversial subject which was very simply put and very humorous. Living with depression all my life, today I considered this method. That is how I found it. The idea was conceived first. I am yet not still convinced. I already forget things and at my mid-40's I don't know if I can handle forgetting more stuff. I was impressed that as a surgeon, he admitted to his condition being that very few people in his position would or do.

[lexiustia]

Wow, very moving, authentic and inspiring.

[twyla3]

I had to laugh at the story of the man that they were testing on!

What an awesome story about his life and experience with Ect

[druz99]

Articulate, beautiful.

[boydism08]

Really inspiring. Major influence in my artwork.

Thanks so much.

[AndreGDJ]

This is an amazing man...

[Cubit100]

If ECT were voluntary, that is one thing, but my understanding is that ECT is often involuntary. As such, it is a violation of basic human rights. My understanding is that ECT destroys memory. If one has one's memories taken, the personhood is lost too. Extreme forms of treament should not be justified by the patient being a burden or an annoyance to someone or society.

[usteaf]

ECT is voluntary because you have to get an informed consent from the patient or significant other.

ECT does not take memories. It is not supposed to destroy memory although an adverse effect is that there is temporary memory problem such as disorientation.

[MonolithHead]

seems like if the significant other was pissed or something they would say yes no matter what lol

[jonahansen]

Oh yes it does cause memory loss. It is one of the classic causes of retrograde amnesia, which is associated to some degree or other with any traumatic loss of consciousness. Retrograde meaning the most recent memories are most affected, whereas older ones less so. Due to the necessity of consolidating short term memory into lon-term memory.

[gigalojo]

@Cubit100 I think your comment it a little naive. ECT is a last resort humanitarian effort to bring a person 'back from the brink'. They are often catatonic and not capable of making any decisions. Many medical practitioners would find your comments about being a 'burden to society' offensive.

A parallel example might be to force feed anorexics who are going to die. It may not be their decision but on average it benefits the patient. Without any benefit the treatment would not exist.

[teejers01]

HAHA.. What the FUCK are you ASSHOLES trying to do? Well said, homeless guy!

[foxabilo]

WOW

[ddball1]

Wonderful and inspirational.

[mistamustard]

Witness the power of explicit language!

[DK0526]

iiiiiiiiizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz­zzzzzzzzTTTT!

[CuchulainXXV]

These are difficult topics. I have experienced some of this myself. Thank you Sherman for your courage.

[Blusage08]

Wonderful human being !......

[joelsdollar]

brilliantly delivered .... A kind , compassionate man who is not afraid ... It made me re-consider neg. effects of such therapy , as my mother experienced it ,, + I've been unsure of its results ... joel d. Ind.

[brujakitty]

Excellent!

[smerten]

inspirational

[prhughes0]

I deeply appreciate this realness: so beautifully spoken and demonstrated.

[ozjthomas]

Good lecture. ECT can be very damaging, but it has been known to shake people out of depressions where nothi ng else worked. Definitely prefered over a lobotomy or a lifetime on neuroleptics.

[daleshankins]

I have also benefited from electroshock therapy. I appreciated this lecture very much.

[recentconvert]

there is hope...

[therealgeeza]

the first contact i had with nuland resulted in me buying an immensely expensive diamond bracelet for my wife. i find him a deeply moving and inspiring man. And soon i will die.

[reivilo]

loved the last 5 min the most!

[iurak6868]

beautiful and powerful talk

[emiliano1527]

great story ! ahw ! Fawk it ! it's truly inspirational! he's got courage!

[anotherelvis]

Wow, that was a strong talk.

[quannump]

don't tase me bro :)

[hatc9723]

hahah...witty

[MightyTiny]

What a wonderful, inspiring and courageous talk.

[revlic]

I started laughing when electroshock was mentioned.

[perfidil]

Who'd have thought, an advert for electro shock therapy! The spirit of torture is alive and well. This tortured man has obeyed his torturers and even attempts to better the instruction. Next week, nobel prize winning, "The Return of the Lobotomy" at a hospital near you, a talk by someone whose spirit was spurred on by it.

[rupertbreheny]

If you argue as articulately or with as much research I may give more credence to your comments...

[perfidil]

I could do mountains of research on it, just because one does years of research does not mean torture comes out as a new cure. So I would say you own argument is lacking and does not even enter the argument except from the dubious authority of referring to hours spent at something regardless of the assumptions of that work.

[rupertbreheny]

He took the therapy voluntarily and can speak of the benefits from actual experience. Who are we to criticise him for that? I question your use of the phrase torture - a very leading turn of phrase. What's your agenda?

Is a heart transplant assualt because it's perpetrated with a knife. Or does taking an asparin brand us all junkies? It's all a question of degree.

[perfidil]

Heart transplants are beside the point. Though transplants have their own curious side-effects psycho-somatically. Don't forget medical history and today also has a dark side.

The man who invented the lobotomy got a nobel prize for it? They won't make the same mistake with electro-convulsion. In the middle ages they also had vicious cures and I'm sure they did shock, but is shocking people the best way to cure shock (trauma)?

Strange however that his books were about myticism, a refuge?

[perfidil]

He did not take it voluntarily, the choice he was given was lobotomy or voltage. He has just rationalized his experience and attempted to make it positive, perhaps the real reason why he is apparently positive. And of course we can criticise it, and doubtless the man would not disagree, do you always believe people's abstract views just because something similar happened to them?

My agenda is simple: rationality and zero "degrees" of torture.

[rupertbreheny]

That's a fair point, I just wonder where he would be if it hadn't happened. Torture or suicide? Tough descision to make.

[perfidil]

I agree tough, but giving yourself a worse pain or trauma to remove the first one sounds like caveman medicine.

[rupertbreheny]

OK, but would you have a rotting tooth pulled? It hurts, but it makes it better. People used to die from infected teeth before dentistry.

[perfidil]

People have been pulling rotten teeth for a very long time. People have, and always will, die from something or other. But we are being too general anyhow, I'm far from suggesting therapy is wrong just cos it's modern but just cos it is new does not mean in itself that it's any better. Just remember how taken in we are by new things, even "smart people", the nobel committee gave the lobotomy inventor the nobel prize for medicine.

[rupertbreheny]

I think this is the crux, lobotomies have been resoundingly debunked, but shock therapy got tarred with the same brush. I sometimes wonder if part of the turn against it was at the behest of the pharmaceutical industry who make a lot more money with ongoing drug regimes than would be possible with a short course of electricity which won't need revisiting.

Would you refuse a defibrillator shock?

[perfidil]

You shift ground. A defib does not zap your mind and is non-pharmaceutical. ECT might come back along with tazer and Abu Graib but not cos people learned that it's not a lobotomy.

As Foucault noticed mental treatment often lines with power and its exercise upon those who don't fit in with the modernist idea of Reason. I think your choice between ECT and suicide is a false one. He had reasons to be depressed but you cant cure the reasons, maybe, like many of us, he wasnt patient enough.

[rupertbreheny]

I think ultimately this comes down to the fact that he was given a choice to make. Are you saying that you are so intellectually assured in yourself that you would take it upon yourself to make that choice for him?

[perfidil]

I told you above that I think this is a false choice. So no, I do not think this is ultimately where "this comes down to". Though you got the direction right, it's certainly not up. By the way, choices are made for people all the time, no longer are lobotomy, enchaining or freeze treatment choices.

[rupertbreheny]

Enjoyed that discourse. Think this is as far as we can go on this one. Bye for now...

[perfidil]

Ok bye.

[oomalk]

The bottom line is: If it works, it works. And for him it did.

[plenipotentiarius]

That is exactly what is contested, it did not work, he is worse than he was before hand, the tortured has become the torturer.

[simonpjhall]

What are you talking about? He clearly stated that it worked.

[plenipotentiarius]

He stated that it worked but we are not arguing with a subjective opinion. We, as he did, are talking about its efficacy in general not trying to put words in his mouth which he clearly didn't say. He kept it secret for most of his life, he knew how bad ECT was, now he pretends its good but again its a selfish thrill of "coming out". He also spent his life promoting self-help not ECT.

[Hypnos7]

I don't see the problem. With muscle relaxants, it's painless. It is shown to be effective compared to placebo.

Even if it were painful, it's less painful than severe depression, which as bad as pain can get.

And side effects from ECT pale compared to those of lobotomy, and the symptoms of severe depression itself.

So how is ECT unethical when administered for severe depression, where drugs have not worked?

[plenipotentiarius]

Connecting the mains to someone's brain, that's 120/200 volts to something that operates at millivolts is just dumb, try it with a computer circuit board and see what happens.

Would you also suggest "erasing memories" of trauma whilst promulgating trauma at the same time, 2 for the price of one!

Depression is real but blasting brains out with electricity is a vicious circle, both childish, and sinister as it tries to avert our eyes from why people get depressed in the first place.

[Hypnos7]

Your argument is insipid, i.e. an emotional reaction with no reason applied. To paraphrase someone else, how is attaching electrodes to one's brain any worse than diving in knife-first to remove a tumor, or tearing someones ribcage open to bypass clogged arteries?

I repeat: if it's effective, painless and the side effects are better than persisting in a severe depressed state, what's the problem?

[plenipotentiarius]

Too many ifs when nobody agrees if or why it could work. I gave you some reasons regarding applying 200 volts to stuff whose operational tolerance is at millivolts (a millivolt is 1,000th of a single volt).

But emotion is exactly what it required here, are you also going to propose a "rational" argument for torture and then tell me that emotion is irrelevant. It is barbaric and belongs to Dr. Frankenstein.

But if you find my argument irritating, don't forget to take your Soma!

[Hypnos7]

Ok, you're a troll. You don't address my criticisms of your position, which I repeat one last time for the benefit of others:

* ECT is *proven* effective.

* ECT is painless because the patient is anesthetized.

* The side effects of ECT (e.g., memory loss) are far less injurious than severe depression.

* How is ECT more barbaric than any other last-resort, lifesaving medical procedure, like open-heart surgery or brain tumor excision?

[plenipotentiarius]

Are you trying to sell these machines?

If you want to advertise them I'd suggest you go and buy space, stop trying to get it free here.

* ECT is not proven, & has the *madness* of applying 200 volts to material that operates at millivolts

And in fact was banned from many hospitals as was lobotomy for similar reasons.

* ECT is hugely traumatic

No comparison to heart surgery or brain surgery, those are well understood operations, unlike turning the brain into a lightening conductor.

[Hypnos7]

It was banned because ECT was originally not done under anesthesia, and had an undeserved public image. Read the US Surgeon General's report which posts its response rate at 60-70 percent. This is far better than both antidepressants and counseling.

If you think ECT is traumatic, you have to make the case that this trauma is worse than intransigent depression.

So far, you merely demonstrate that you care more about your aesthetics than the deep suffering of others.

[plenipotentiarius]

Aesthetics are not the issue but voltages.

How the equipment looks aesthetically is irrelevant.

The voltage, which is 100,000 fold greater than normal brain voltages, blasts away at memories, long term and future ones, which are naturally invisible to brain scans which can only show gross brain structures.

It is the case today that 50% of US citizens are obese, do you think the solution is to attach them to voltage and melt the fat away or to eat less?

[Hypnos7]

In the vast majority of ECT cases, the only memory loss is for several hours before the procedures. If you know of studies which indicate something different, please show them.

If you cannot fulfill this simple request, you are again left with an insipid non-argument: zomg, 200V is bad. Everyday static electricity has far higher voltage.

Your analogy is silly: do you have a solution for curing severe depression which is as benign clinically as eating less? If so, what are you waiting for?

[plenipotentiarius]

You compare ECT to static electricity, are you going to prescribe static as a new cure! Join the quackery. Cos that's what it is when you haven't the first idea why it might cure (which it doesn't) and so is very unlike heart surgery or tumour removal.

This common idea, that simply blasting the brain with stuff, 200 volts, hard drugs, helps anything in the long run is mistaken, if anything it misses the target and disavows an intellectually honest look at the causes and vectors of depression.

[Hypnos7]

Your claim of intellectual dishonesty is hypocritical, because while I have offered proof of ECT's effectivenes in the form of controlled medical studies, you have offered nothing to refute it.

And, if you actually knew anthing about ECT, you would know that it induces a clonic seizure. ECT began when psychologists noticed that severely depressed people felt better after such seizures.

Once again, your argument boils down to "zomg 200V." If you have anything better, let's hear it.

[plenipotentiarius]

If you had anything other that dogma, & you could actually think about it in a broader context instead of superficially shifting ground, talking of aesthetics one minute (though I'm sure the machines you make are pretty) and deriding emotion the next.

In all these postings it is obvious that you don't give a fig about why depression arises, you may therefore be part of the problem, your thinking might be a cause of depression!

Is it any wonder that the US now tortures & sees a rise in ECT use?

[Hypnos7]

Wow. Because I think people should use an effective treatment for severe depression, it means that I don't think there should be research in understanding depression (and the brain in general)?

And because the US tortures, this somehow makes ECT torture, even though it is voluntary, painless and effective?

Two whopping non-sequiturs -- you don't even need the soma. Good luck, and goodbye.

[plenipotentiarius]

You draw inferences I never made, 1. "because the U.S tortures this makes ECT torture", and 2. "because you want to treat depression it means you're against brain research", both inferences, since they were not made by me, might therefore be your own.

I never mentioned researching the brain in general, you think you will find the causes of depression in some internal structure of the brain. You are lost!

[Hypnos7]

I made the inferences available given your willful ignorance of the evidence. ECT is painless and effective, so why mention it in the same sentence as American torture? If one won't find the cause of intransigent, severe depression in the brain, where else should he look?

So far you have provided zero information other than baseless assertions of personal disgust. What do you have to offer?

[plenipotentiarius]

"I made the inferences available given your wilful ignorance of the evidence"

So you inferred from my lack of knowledge that because the U.S. now tortures, ECT turns into torture, quite a leap and quite illogical.

From same you infer that wanting to treat depression means one is against brain research! Again illogical.

I'll leave your last question: If the cause of depression is not in the brain, "where else should [one] look?" with you, as I get the feeling we come toward end of chat.

[Hypnos7]

I see, you have nothing to offer. Can't criticize my position, won't address criticisms of your own, and are defending your non-sequiturs.

Indeed, our chat should end, because you are an Internet troll.

[plenipotentiarius]

If all you do is make empty insults (hypocrit, sequiturs, etc) to people then it is no wonder they call you a troll.

In your narrow reductionist way you think my only argument is on voltage: again 100,000 millivolts is applied at 1 amp to stuff that operates at a few millivolts and at a few micro-amps (that is 1,000,000th of an amp).

It blasts away at the brain, memories etc. and in lax times is forced on people who aren't in a fit state to permit it.

[Hypnos7]

Who has called me a troll? You accuse me of making inferences, but this is the second that is refuted by the facts.

The first is that ~100V applied to the brain in a controlled setting is necessarily bad. Quite the contrary: 60-70% response rate in severe depression is extraordinary, and in the vast majority of cases the only memories lost permanently are for the several hours before the procedure.

Weighed against the agony of severe depression, this is a small penalty, assumed voluntarily.

[plenipotentiarius]

You can't know what has been blasted away by the 100,000 fold voltage/wattage, the brain is too complex, if you lose the quality of a memory from your childhood you will never know that you have lost it since it will from then on be unknown that you ever had it.

The hard argument is for fewer causes of depression in the first place, eg, breakups, job firings, empty society, rather than letting us regress through burning away those poor experiences artificially in a vicious circle.

[Hypnos7]

Thank you for making a comment I can actually understand. Two counterarguments:

* Family and friends can tell if a certain "suchness" or quality of memories has been gone. AFAIK, there is no such report -- only the memories several hours before a procedure are lost.

* I agree that much should (can?) be improved in society to promote emotional well-being. However, the evidence is just as clear that depression is genetic, and severe depression especially -- there is a material aspect.

[plenipotentiarius]

* Family only give the objective side, the subjective side, being such, is not possible to objectively assess.

* If you make depression genetic, then you also have to say why it evolved and posit a reason to undo this gene sequence. In any case we know too little to get into DNA's relation to depression without making it into a form of astrology.

Aside from all that it is barbaric and I hope one day we'll look back in disgrace at it.

[Hypnos7]

* If the patient feels better, is that not all that matters subjectively? Our minds are changing all the time -- our memories and reasoning imperfect. There is no Platonic ideal of what "we" are.

* Similarly, there are plenty of genetic traits which are simply maladaptive, like cystic fibrosis. Our minds, and our genomes, are kludges. One relevant gene, 5HTT, has been identified.

I don't see what's barbaric about something which relieves suffering and is voluntary and painless.

[plenipotentiarius]

* No it is not "all that matters" killing in that case would be a solution for you.

* I don't wish to get into genetic voodoo, one thing we all know: they are merely pre-dispositional but no one is immune.

Barbaric cos of the violence, the massively damaging charge.

The cases involving a person depressed because of their situation, due in part to others who then abuse again by recommending this barbarity, burying further the memory of the abuse that is also kept hidden from the medical staff.

[Hypnos7]

* There is no evidence the charge is "massively damaging." The patient regains all function, minus the depression, the only cost being a few hours of memory. It is no different than having a long surgical procedure.

* ECT is only used when all other treatments have failed, including antidepressants and counseling sessions.

[plenipotentiarius]

* Huge massive damage is the assumption one is forced to make when over charging something 100,000 fold. There is no evidence of this lack of massive neuronal and axial damage.

* ECT has been used in many cases and in different places to extraordinary varying degrees, in those societies which are generally more barbaric, eg, those that have instituted torture as a national policy, ECT use is found to be almost automatic & far from last resort.

[Hypnos7]

* There is plenty of evidence of lack of neuronal damage with ECT. People feel better, have all their cognitive faculties. Give someone meningitis, or force-feed them crystal meth for a year, and you'll see the difference.

* If ECT, has no ill effects (pain or disability), it is not barbaric. As such, it has no relation to torture.

Your intuition is simply wrong.

[plenipotentiarius]

* There is a link between ECT and torture.

ECT tends to be more prevalent in societies that have instituted torture as part of their public policy than in those who do not.

* There cannot be evidence of this voiding of axial networks.  Someone could regress to the state of a child and report feeling nice. You cannot compare a depressed state directly with a regressed one negatively if the abuser who inflicts ECT is happier with the regressed state.

[Hypnos7]

* Even if a correlation existed between torture and administration of ECT, they do not necessarily have a common cause.

Moreover, this is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not ECT is an appropriate treatment. It's effective and painless with minimal side effects, so it is.

* So if family and friends can't detect any neurological defect, and it doesn't show up on brain scans, does it exist? You are the one arguing voodoo.

[mach1man22]

Well... I think people have lost a little more than just hours of their memory, but on their behalf that might be better because some of those times are times which they may not want to recall.

[jellyfishattack]

Who cares whether you "lose the quality of a memory from your childhood" if you are going to kill yourself?!!!!??? You have obviously NEVER been truly depressed. You make that plain by your naive belief that "breakups, job firings, empty society" cause suicide. We no more know what causes depression than we know how ECT and antidepressants work.

BTW, you should know that ECT machines actually dispense up to 400V, not 100V. ;)

[putavyraitis]

Zero degrees of torture? Well what are other options? Leaving him as it was? Don't you think, that's torture as well? Since it is no other options, and, according to you, no torture is acceptable, so I see the only reason - euthanasia.

[perfidil]

The point is to no have people all over the place getting depressed in the first place because of the depressing nature of our world.

Why the forced choice, the emergency room situation is not something we are talking about, panic is a different illness.

It is not a simple choice between torture and torture, of lobotomy and brain melt or something equally barbaric.

Of course no torture is acceptable, are you advocating torture?