Mythbusters Blackpowder Engine Challenge

[CharlieMacklin1]

@Ebbtide007 Thanks

[normellow]

I came up with this idea a long time ago. I also used water to filter out all the carbon build up.

[CharlieMacklin1]

@normellow cool :) In the video, the test run did not have a water filter... i didn't want to add confusion as far as possible steam production... but yes, a water filter would probably help with carbon build up. Did you ever get a running prototype? If so, definitely post a video... strength in numbers. Black Powder Engines Unite !

[CharlieMacklin1]

@normellow ... Saw your video... I bet I know where you came up with the idea for a water filter :D

[rich1051414]

this would be so much easier to build if you used gunpowder to drive a tesla style turbine, and much more reliable and easy to maintain :)

[CharlieMacklin1]

@rich1051414 I agree. The Tesla turbine would definitely be easier to clean. I tried the slow burning black powder, bound in a tube, to drive a turbocharger. It seemed to produce plenty of heat, but a whole bunch of "gunk", and without a high enough flow rate of gases to spool up the turbo. Perhaps it would work if the combustion gases were focused through nozzles, as in the Tesla turbine, or an impulse turbine.

[kidddogbites]

well if you can build me a V8 one of those that has a displacement of 350ci i will pay you to give it to me so i canput it in my camaro...if it puts out more than 700hp.....then e can work out ways to supe it upp

[CharlieMacklin1]

@kidddogbites hmm :) well that does sound a bit tricky, I doubt she would run for very long lol

[hoppper26]

can you spell "pipe bomb"?

[HSMiyamoto]

Anyway, what Macklin's engine shows--as MB also shows repeatedly--is that black powder burns fast if unconfined, but it only explodes when confined.

[HSMiyamoto]

Although the Otto engine (1862) seems simple today, remember that getting tight seals on pistons was unheard of in the 17th century, especially at the temperatures of a gasoline (or alcohol, naptha, etc. engine). Even Watt's steam engine was probably operating at just over 212 degrees F. The era of Super-Heating, 750 degrees F steam, would not come until around 1900--revolutionized steam engines, btw. (cont'd)

[HSMiyamoto]

I agree with haggard, this is an external combustion engine, as Charlie says, if you listen to him. You could run this engine on any source of expanding gas, from an air compressor to an aerosol can. What MB was doing was replicating Huygen's and other's attempts to build what would have been the first internal combustion engine. (cont'd)

[haggard159]

I think the point of the myth is to run an engine on black powder to achieve the greater power you could see verses gasoline. Your engine is an air motor using black powder combustion gases as its energy source. It is a clever design, dont get me wrong, but its not being run with black powder itself, which is what the myth was intended to be.

[sonicthehedge1900]

the mythbusters knew it would work they just didnt let it work because they didnt want people going out and building them LOL

[CharlieMacklin1]

@sonicthehedge1900 :) Yes there is that element too. Seems like they gave it a solid try anyways. There is a guy on youtube, Dan Rojas, with greenpowerscience... did some neat stuff getting a two-stroke to run on air or steam bursts... could work for Black Powder too.

[14omega28ok]

@CharlieMacklin1 Thats not a Engine running on black powder thats a engine using the gases and heat from the black powder which is the same thing as just a steam engine. Thanks for learning how to run a STEAM ENGINE on black powder gases. Now go build a Engine that actually "Runs" on directly black powder. then I'll be impressed

[CharlieMacklin1]

@14omega28ok A steam engine has a boiler, mine has no boiler, it runs directly on the combustion gases produced by black powder. Tell you what, if you want to see an engine that runs directly on store bought explosive black powder, an engine which injects the powder directly into the piston, then get out your checkbook and mail me a check for a few hundred dollars. You say "Now go build an Engine.." as if that shit was free!! 

[14omega28ok]

@CharlieMacklin1 Steam Engine is a Steam Engine, The boiler does not make it a "Steam Engine" This is in fact a Steam Engine

[CharlieMacklin1]

@14omega28ok Usually an engine is named by its means of operation / fuel, for example, a gasoline engine, diesel engine, a steam engine, a pneumatic engine, etc etc. Since this one runs on directly on blackpowder, one would call it a .... hmm, lets see...

[14omega28ok]

@CharlieMacklin1 It can be ran off of Steam, Compressed air, or any gas you can find that has enough force to push down the piston. You can run a Steam engine on compressed air and run a "Pneumatic" Engine on steam. You can run this engine on steam/compressed air. This is a Steam Engine. Simple fact is compressed air (Whether it be from Black powder, Boiler, Or air compressor) is what makes this machine work. and any machine that runs on compressed air is in fact a steam Engine.

[fawkes37]

thats some really nice work right there. loved the video.

thats eactly why i wanna become a mechanical engineer aswell.

but could you please explain in more detail how does the piston work in that engine/where the steam hits it? i didnt quite get it, was kinda small in the video. thanks.

[CharlieMacklin1]

@fawkes37

Sure, Here is the same kind of engine, they can run on steam, air, or apparently, combustion gases from black powder :)

Just youtube:

"Steam engine PM Research oscillating piston"

The larger tank (at right) is a pressure chamber that captures the gases from the burning blackpowder. Those gases are then piped into the "2-way oscillating piston engine"

[GunPotato]

Parabens!! Seu motor funcionou mesmo!!

Mas seu motor é bem diferente dos MythBusters, seu motor tem o principio de uma maquina a vapor, ou motor pneumático.

Seu projeto não se trata de um motor a explosão.

Mas funcionou de verdade!!!!

[CharlieMacklin1]

@GunPotato

Obrigado!

Eu desejo para o momento e o dinheiro de construir um motor maior:)

[CharlieMacklin1]

@GunPotato Obrigado!

Eu desejo para o momento e o dinheiro de construir um motor maior:)

[nltubeyou]

5* awesome!

[CharlieMacklin1]

Cool thanks :)

[propyropower]

you for sure knocked em off that show,you showed them wrong , respect ! +5

[CharlieMacklin1]

Cool thanks :)

[420sickopsycho420]

Good job on the engine. I didn't see the episode but certainly will now. I think in the stricted sense of the challenge you did it but also it seems as if you may have cheated a little. I think Jamie (who cheats constantly) would agree you are sucessful but Adam (sticking strictly to the rules) might be skeptical. Nice engine, though! =)

[CharlieMacklin1]

Thanks :) I guess by "cheating" you mean compressing the powder into a slow burning log?

[crazyboy123252]

nice

[CharlieMacklin1]

Thanks to all for viewing. Yes, there is some debate regarding "internal combustion"... that is to say, having the flame front impinge on the top of the piston, yet this could be accomplished.

[Skoda130]

Is it somekind of steam engine? Would you please explain how it works? :-)

[pureCANADIANeh]

awsome

[rbwannasee]

I just saw this episode of mythbusters today, and yes, I agree you have demonstrated it CAN be done - however - the show did mention that black powder does not need an oxygen source. They also tried running an internal combustion engine with the powder inside the combustion chamber, which I think is the essence of what they were trying to prove. I challenge you to do that with either a 2 cycle or 4 cycle gasoline engine, or steam engine. Thought...how about a single rotor Wankel?

[CharlieMacklin1]

It's not fake... I woulda made it more dramatic :)

[241Groundhog]

The Mythbusters were idiots and said a black powder engine was impossible in one their episodes. The Mythbusters even built a few which failed miserably. Even if this video is fake, you can build an engine to run on an explosive like black powder.

[cupmike]

can you upload a sketch somewere and link to it by any chance?

[Enzo6006]

very cool, but where is all the smoke?

[CharlieMacklin1]

Well, most of the smoke is filtered out in the pressure chamber. There is a very fine mesh screen inside it, which helps to catch most of the particulates. If you watch closely in the video, you might notice a very slight puff of smoke.

[CharlieMacklin1]

Look just below the pipe elbow (at the oscillating piston head). You'll see a little smoke come out.

[superfunnyman123]

ok now black pouder doesnt run this engine, all as your doing is using a black pouder log to !HEAT! your !FULE! witch is water/steam. you could just as well heat it on your stove or wood ect. to run the steam engine.

[CharlieMacklin1]

NO !

There is no "water" or "steam" in the system. Only the hot gases produced by the burning black powder log.

There is no heat exchanger.

The system is open loop.

[dellto529]

When black powder is burned (combusted) it produces gases

(CO2, SO2, etc.) and solid pariculate matter (smoke). These gases are what drove the piston and produced motion. There was no visible smoke because the engine and internal filter trapped it.

BTW, it's spelled powder, not "pouder" and it's fuel not "fule". Also, you should capitalize the first letter of a word that begins a sentence. Makes you look smart.

But then, you're a comedian, right?

[shidoink]

'gently commpressed"

pulls out a hammer

[CharlieMacklin1]

To determine if a hammer strike is gentle or forceful, with specificity, is above my pay grade :)

[shidoink]

i just thought it was funny

[CharlieMacklin1]

lol yeah guess it kinda is.

[gupnup]

Does anyone out there know the answers to some of my questions.If a Black powder engine was invented that was functional,safe etc.

Would there be enough kno3 and sulfer for it to acually be practical? In other words would it be cheap enough to mass produce Black powder to make it cheaper to run then a petroleum vehicle? What about the environment? Countless trees would need to be burned to create enough charcoal to create the Black Powder;unless of course a kno3/sugar fuel would be used.

[CharlieMacklin1]

A black powder engine will not be practical..

This was mainly a proof of concept type video.

1.) The solid combustion products will have to be cleaned too often.

2.) Propellant - weight ratio is poor, because salt peter carries oxygen, instead of using atmospheric oxygen.

3.) It could only be used on a small scale without causing an environmental impact.

4.) Too dangerous.

There may be some limited uses for a fuel-oxidizer engine, perhaps for momentary use in an underwater apparatus.

[gupnup]

Hmm...

1)I wonder if this would also count for engines (if ever invented) that use even stronger explosives that deflagrate even faster (such as flashpowder/armstrongs mix).

From my tests (I expiremint with low explosives) I have noticed the finer grade (higher mesh) and more thoroughly mixed an explosive the less residue left behind.

2) I dont quite understand this one...

Continued on next post.

[gupnup]

3) Definately a black powder engine would have a bigger environmental impact then say kno3/sugar since, of course, BP contains sulfer. Also keep in mind that right now a big supply of oil is coming from Alberta where they have to consume about 1 barrel of oil to create 2 barrels of oil...

4) Like in my earlier post (1) I said that maybe in the future an explosive that deflagrates faster could be used? Of course, this would seem like suicide at first glance.

Continued next post.

[gupnup]

4) Cont. Since armstrongs mix and flash powder only require 2 things to make (fuel, oxider) I was thinking what if an engine had to tanks 1 holding the oxider and one holding the fuel and then there is another extremely small tank which combines the 2 together and air pressure or whatever its called would mix the 2 together (like when a cars moving a little passage would open thus channeling wind) thus mixing the 2 together creating a small amount of explosive.

Cont next post.

[CharlieMacklin1]

Yeah... mixing them into a reactor.. that's actually one of the best ideas yet...

Very similar to the German "Z-stoff" and "T-Stoff" Used in the Messerschmitt Me 163

I will have to research your "armstrong" mixture.

[roguespear91]

Dear God No.

[gupnup]

That explosive would then be channeled to another holding tank...where it would be used up.

I'm no expert but, an engine would require more cylinders to run more smoothly since it would be running on fuel way more powerful then any gas.

Sorry if my ideas seem kinda pathetic and impossible but, im only 13 and im just wondering.

[CharlieMacklin1]

:) Be careful with that Armstrong's Mix.

[RetardedKidOnSugar]

yes its a bad idea to make more then 1-2 grams of it

[pyrogeniuses]

no its .2 grams of it,2 grams would be so powerful youd kill youself igniting that with your face 1 ft to the side of it

[silver760]

Best video I have seen for months,beats the usual wobbly camera held by a 12 yearold pissing about with dismantled fireworks,hell,someone might learn something useful from your vid,well done,thanks.

[CharlieMacklin1]

Thanks

[cheeseperson499999]

I also feel this is not an 'engine', at least not in some traditional sense. For one thing, Mythbuster's had a small engine at one point in that episode running on compressed air (they were attempting to inject black powder with an air-tool), so if this is to prove them wrong, I think that they would have thought of this. Also, In a practical engine sense, this could not be turned on and off easily, as the entire fuel reserve is technically burning at once. However, this is still a clever design

[CharlieMacklin1]

Well that depends on the term "traditional sense"...

1. a machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy or power to produce force and motion.

... What part of this does the machine not accomplish?

Also the valves are different for a four stroke lawnmower engine.

[TheUnforgivn17]

Ok i have a question about making your own charcoal. I make pens on my lathe and i have a bunch of sawdust from different woods. Can i still make decent charcoal from the sawdust i make pens from...ex: Purple heart, paduke, pine, maple, curly maple. Please mail me back

[dellto529]

Black powder can be made by placing debarked sticks of wood (willow, elm, other)into a clean, one gallon paint can over a hot fire. The can must be vented with a 1/4" holes in the lid and bottom, and no air must be allowed into the can while it's being heated. Using sawdust might present unique problems, like venting and spillage, and not all woods produce charcoal suitable for use in black powder. But give it try!

[hawkerhr]

that's not mythbusters

[CharlieMacklin1]

True. The Mythbusters episode is #63... hope that helps.

[CharlieMacklin1]

True.. in fact a "sulphur free" blend would be best. We had sulphur close to the standard 10% to keep the blackpowder as close to "original" as possible.

I feel that a blend of sugar and saltpeter, possibly with a small amount of Charcoal, would be cleaner, smoother, and burn cooler.

[cheeseperson499999]

Potassium Nitrate (saltpeter) and sugar is actually a formula for a "smoke bomb", so it's likely it's not cleaner.

[gupnup]

A mix of sugar and saltpeter should work better as it would deflagrate less violently. But then again adding baking soda to BP would world.

This is what I think would work if your looking smoothing although I'm not sure what would burn cooler kno3/sugar or Bp/w/baking soda powder but, I'm leaning towards Bp/w/bakingsoda.

Anyways

[CharlieMacklin1]

Right on... sugar and saltpeter would be easier to cast, cooler and slower burning too. :)

[CharlieMacklin1]

Hi Rabbitvoz,

Yes I agree with your comment; blackpowder is very dependent upon Charcoal type. It is amazing how different plants produce different burn characteristics.

[dellto529]

Critics of Mr. Macklin's black powder engine should visit the Mythbusters Fan Club site and look up Episode #63, wherein they will find the original Myth: "Can an engine be built that runs solely on black (gun) powder?"

It sure looks to me like Macklin has sucessfully designed, built and tested such an engine, something the Mythbuster "experts" were unable to do.

Those who can do. Those who can't teach. ANON

[survivalhelper]

I hate to be the bearer of bad tiding, but you didn't create an engine that runs on blackpowder. What you created is a pressure fed engine (same thing as a steam engine). This engine does not "burn" the blackpowder, the blackpowder burns separately to produce pressure to drive the engine. It is the same concept as a regular steam engine, just modified to use direct gas pressure rather than steam pressure.

[CharlieMacklin1]

I disagree. All engines are "pressure fed"... that's what moves the piston... the only difference is where and how fast the combustion takes place.

It may not be efficient, but it IS an engine that runs on blackpowder.

[gupnup]

Your comment doesn't make sense try to get a basic concept of how engines work?

[gupnup]

this is a reply to survivalhelper's post.

[CharlieMacklin1]

Let me clarify.

The purpose of the video is to demonstrate that an engine, when properly designed, can run on black powder.

Check out Mythbusters episode 63.

[gupnup]

Yeah, I know im just adding on to that. You can delete my posts if you want since there kinda spam.

[survivalhelper]

Gupnup, I have a perfect working knowledge of the engineering behind any engine, sadly this still is not an engine that is any different from a steam engine. Tell me, where does the combustion on a steam engine occur? Outside. Where and how is the power transmitted to the crankshaft? Via an internal piston driven by the pressure created OUTSIDE. Its not rocket science, it is a steam engine that runs off the black powder propellant burning outside. Its like saying coal runs a steam engine.

[survivalhelper]

What I am saying is if you take a steam engine (which the maker of the video ADMITS) and you modify it to run on a scuba tank of oxygen, its not an oxygen engine, if it uses black powder, or nitrogen, or etc. IT IS STILL A STEAM ENGINE, THE DESIGN IS THE SAME YOUR ONLY CHANGING WHAT GIVES IT THE PRESSURE. Run a Briggs and Stratton on that fuel log, let me know how it works. What do you mean it doesn't work? Maybe its because this engine is a steam engine running black powder for pressure? Nice !

[CharlieMacklin1]

The black powder log is NOT OUTSIDE the system. Yes it is a "steam" engine, but in this configuration, combustion gases enter the cylinder (not steam), thus making it "internal". Contact me for a sketch if you want.

Think of the expansion chamber/pressure vessel as a continuation of the cylinder.

If "internal" requires that actual flames hit the top of the piston, then I can build that kind of black powder engine. How about running a 2-cyl chainsaw engine on BP ? Challenge me.

[survivalhelper]

Just because the combustion gas (BYPRODUCTS OF COMBUSTION) enter the cylinder does not make it an internal combustion engine.

I don't have to think of the expansion chamber as an extension of the combustion chamber, it isn't. Just like an intake manifold isn't an extension of the combustion chamber.

Here is "the test" make ANY internal combustion engine run B/P and it in tern drives the motor for either 2 or 4 cycles. Try again, I don't need a sketch, pressure engines have been around for eons

[sz42781]

You should make a filter using a sort of reversed waterpipe or bong design, where the gas enters underwater and bubles up to the pressure tank.The water might catch alot of the carbon and shit!Could be some issues though like water blowback who knows just giving ideas

[CharlieMacklin1]

1.) That is my father and he can work anywhere he damn well pleases! If anyone gets smacked it'll be you for pissing me off.

2.) Yes, I've had that idea, that is a good idea using a water pipe type filter, but we decided not to introduce water into the system to keep things simple for the test run.

[sz42781]

well hes gonna fuck up his back, sorry dident know it was pop's! I used to work on the floor, and always got yelled at, no offense!

[CharlieMacklin1]

Yeah it's not the best way to work, but a workbench tends to bounce when you hammer on it... pavement is solid for blackpowder rammin.

[sz42781]

3:28, get a workbench! dont work like an idiot on the floor, id smack him next time I saw him work on the floor

[treborly]

....you didnt have to go through that much trouble.. all you had to do was hook up your gunpowder to a pneumatic engine. the gunpowder just creates a study pressure, so it replaces the air intake on pneumatic devices.

just buy an airtank, air hose, air tool,

connect hose to tool and tank, insert powder into the tank and light. the powder creates high psi in the tank which powers the tool. make sure to have a high psi release.

[CharlieMacklin1]

treborly, yes that would work also...

I think there is some confusion here, that "steam" engine didn't use steam. It functions just like a pneumatic piston engine, running on the hot gases produced from the burning blackpowder.

[CharlieMacklin1]

It is a new spin on old technology as far as I know. Show me a video of a steam engine running on blackpowder only (no water)...

[mightyfinejonboy]

air craft starter cartridges which use a monopropellant? both used on piston and gas turbine engines....... so nothing new here:-(

[CharlieMacklin1]

Thank you ! :)

[Senatorcliffbrown]

I like the machine

[naesthetics]

i just saw a BMW commercial last night for (what seemed like) a car that was fully hydrogen powered. now THAT is cool

[jakeharvey]

Have you tried to measure how much work you can get out of it? Like charge a battery with it or something? I'm curious to know about the power and efficiency.

[CharlieMacklin1]

Thanks for watching everyone!

WARNING: "smokeless gunpowder" as it is purchased in the store is impact sensitive, and should never be "packed" in a tube.

Just wanted to make sure people know that using the wrong type of powder can cause injury or worse.

anyway, Thanks !

[naesthetics]

I wonder if mythbusters will do a follow up after seeing this video. After all, it would be the mature thing to do.

[jakeharvey]

"The mature thing to do"? You're acting like they don't do follow ups when they get something wrong. They devote entire episodes to it.

[naesthetics]

it's cool, jake. It was me just trying to make a funny without being an ass about it. I don't watch the show so i'm not sure what their MO is. Great stuff though. Very interesting.

[jakeharvey]

I hope they do the follow up... It seemed like all that was needed was a better design. And now here's a proof of concept, and how awesome would it be to run a car off this?

[dellto529]

Excellent! Mythbusters just got busted.