Talkin' bout Senpai, Kouhai, and Keigo w/crimsoniglooさん

[beckomobil]

I have a question.I really wanna learn japanese,cuz I like the way it sounds,but many ppl told me that I would never be able to get a job with japanese or do something like that.In other words, why should the people(including myself) learn japanese? Where can I use that knowledge afterwards?

[HoseiTutor]

@learning japanese is not your education or career... it´s just something you do, like a hobby.

[beckomobil]

its a good answer. Cant disagree with that

[kittycatjump]

とても良い勉強になります!

ありがとうございます～

[riechanster]

watashi wa gakusei desu !!!

thankyou ^^

[AndySan]

I'd love to get in on this to improve my Japanese! What do I do?

[iareryc3]

Japanese is an interesting language. It's probably the only language I know that doesn't need profanity. There's so many different ways to offend someone with just the nice words. You always have to change your tone depending who you're with. It's okay to use masu/desu form, but it's not great when you get to know the people you're talking to.

[ElevenColors]

Sempai means I own your ass. It means I'm right and you're wrong. Also means I'm responsible for your well being. Also means I pay for drinks.

Good self-catch on the plural "s".

3:30 For kochira.... Seems you're stressing the middle sylLAble just a bit, sounded a little bit like koCHIra.

[bobbyjudo]

Thanks! I'll watch out for that.

[hcm9999]

OH NO!! By all means BE POLITE to shop clerks!! Don't use casual forms! That is very dangerous! They may not complain or react but SURELY they will be cursing you on your back and wishing you out of Japan!

[bobbyjudo]

Hmmmm.... I never said not to be polite to shop clerks, I just said not to use yoroshii if you are the customer. Thank you for the clarification about the difference between humble and honorific forms. What would you suggest we say in humble Japanese instead of "ii desu" in this situation?

[bobbyjudo]

If you could, I'd actually really appreciate some clarification on this: I was under the impression that both humble and honorific forms are used UP, to people like customers, clients, strangers, elders, bosses, teachers... I thought the difference was honorific is used to refer to others, and humble is used to refer to yourself, but a staff member would use BOTH of them to a customer, and a customer would use NEITHER to someone who was waiting on them.

[hcm9999]

Hello, Bobby! Your first question: "ii desu" is OK. I I would say "hai", I think it is more clear.

Your second comment: you are absolutely right about the honorific and humble forms.

But I as a customer would use both forms to address the waiter. For example when asking for water I would say " Sumimasen, mizu itadakemasuka?"

[bobbyjudo]

I really appreciate this response. Your explanation was really clear, so thank you. This is exactly why I wanted to do these videos.

Since I wanted to use "ii desu" to decline the receipt, I guess I could say "iie," or "irimasen" instead? Although "irimasen" or "iranai" always sounds rude to me.

[bobbyjudo]

Also, Your explanation about the customer and waiter really helped me out. The hardest part for me is knowing where the lines are drawn. "Itadakimasu" is okay to use to a waiter, but "ukagai," or "mairu," you wouldn't, right? Are all of those considered humble, or is itadaku an honorific?

[hcm9999]

You can say "ii desu" to decline the receipt. I would say "iya, ii desu" to avoid ambiguity. Japanese people usually avoid saying "iie".

You can use "ukagai" and "mairu" to a waiter but usually it is not necessary to go that far. "Itadaku" is the humble form of "receive".

[lessdone]

the keigo for "iidesu" is "iie kekkoudesu" or just "kekkoudesu"

BTW, itadaku is the most convenient way to be assertive without being impolite, I use it all the time. iwasete itadakimasu, yarasete itadakimasu, dokasete itadakimasu, nagurasete itadakimasu, just kidding.

[bobbyjudo]

I took your comment to a handful of Japanese teachers (in the sense that they are Japanese, and they teach Japanese to Japanese people) cause no one else I asked knew that much about it.

The general consensus was that "kekkou desu," while polite, is not keigo. It doesn't fall into any of the three main categories of keigo, nor is it bikago or teichogo...

One teacher said if you had to call it something, it could be teineigo, which technically is a kind of keigo, but she wasn't happy with that.

[bobbyjudo]

They said depending on the situation, a subordinate could use it to a superior, or vice versa, which makes it hard to classify. They said it was a very aimai issue, but calling it keigo is an error.

Even more interesting for me was that they said there's no terminology for phrases that get used only in the superior to subordinate direction, like ご苦労様です。

Like all things in Japanese, it's not so much the words you use as the context. Kekkou can be polite or it can be cold.

[bobbyjudo]

In the same way, your itadakimasu could be politely assertive, in your examples, just plain polite as in "gochumon wo kakunin sasete itadakimasu" (I don't see anything assertive about saying "I'm going to confirm your order.", and I can imagine situations or tones of voice that would turn "yarasete itadakimasu" into fighting words.

It's all relative...

[lessdone]

イラッとしてるの？

[lessdone]

your right, it could be a contextually more polite form but not categorically keigo.

[bobbyjudo]

おら！ごめんなさい！ぜんぜんイラッとしていませんでした。「「­結構です」という表現は警護」を読んで、少し違和感がしましたの­で、興味深くて調べただけです。

いい勉強になりました。

嫌な気分をさせて、申し訳ない～す！

[lessdone]

No problem, I was just surprised at the extended reply. I merely intended to contribute examples I personally found useful in a more formal setting instead of covering a lot of ground. I agree there are are multiple contexts and nuances but I rather thought that would be beyond the scope of this comment section. Since I picked up Japanese and English from childhood and from using it at work, my grammatical analysis is more "if it sounds right" sort of thing, sorry.

[hcm9999]

Yoroshii is an honorific form. When the convenience store clerk says yoroshii to you, he is being honorific to you. You cannot respond with yoroshii because then you would be being honorific to yourself!! When talking about yourself you have to use humble form.

Humble and honorific forms are both polite forms, they are not casual!

[hcm9999]

In my opinion you don't need to worry much about the senpai-kōhai relationship.

The important thing is to be polite. You have to speak politely to your customer, client or strangers, even though they are not your senpais.

It is very very difficult for beginners to know when to be polite and when to be casual, so my advice is to play safe and just be polite all the time.

[bobbyjudo]

It's not our intention to say that EVERYONE in Japan has to relate to each other as either senpai/kouhai.

What we're doing is since, we are students, we hope to adopt the senpai-kouhai system to help us learn. Instead of me saying "This is how Japanese works" as many other people do, I want to make it clear that even though I've studied longer than others, I often need and always want help and advice from my seniors, like you. Thank you!

[BlkUnk]

nice lesson....

[sloughwitch]

great video. keep 'em coming

[brentwithani]

あまり基本的にならないでください...1級は 大変難しい.!

[bobbyjudo]

I think that not being able to use keigo correctly is one of the big differences between Native Japanese and Japanese-as-a-second-language.

It's one of the "unique characteristics" of Japanese that we're not supposed to be able to fully get, so yes, Japanese people will forgive us for not using it, or we might end up using funny keigo by mistake... but I think it's important to learn it, and learn to use it well.

[echomusiq]

Once I didn't follow this rule in Japanese society....

Crimsonigloo, I strongly reccomend following the hierchy. By Japanese law, I am only allowed to discuss the nouns used in my punishment:

- A large trout

- Over-perfumed soap bars

- Duct tape

- The band Creed covering only Dolly Parton songs

[qchome]

my situation is the exception to the rule,but maybe can be of some use to someone;in biz situations,i don't follow 95% of the rules.i am very casual in biz situations in the west(north america & europe)and i don't change.all of my japanese clients realize that this is just "my style" and don't mind at all.i would go as far as saying that my japanese clients conduct themselves in a much more casual way with me then in any other biz meeting they go to...interesting to witness there transformation.

[iamtakingover]

ahaha... when i first read the title i thought you wrote kiego

[Ido013]

Women uses keigo more than men, I think that is what's the Japanese society is used to..

[bobbyjudo]

Agreed. Speaking very politely, if you're a man, can make you sound "soft" or "feminine." I also have a problem with that.

[keibichan]

自分の先輩←友達に砕けた日本語で喋ったりします。あまり気にし­ないんだって、イエイ

[safetydanger]

I find that staying with desu masu form when you're a beginner is a good way to approach the learning.

I used to work in a sushi restaurant and at the time I only had limited japanese speaking confidence and ability. I sometimes would use casual speech to my bosses, but they were pretty understanding and explained new phrases for me to use instead. They knew I was learning so I didn't get in too much trouble :D

[Heavi001]

Wow. Great video! Good questions, and good answers. Looking forward to more from you.

[6663000]

Good questions Leigh.

I bet she will be the fuel for MANY Japanese language videos in the future :P

[karekora]

yup, keigo is evil ;)

[250mxrider]

今年の１２月に日本語能力試験を受けますか？２級にもう合格した­んですか？私は１２月に２級を受けるつもりですけど、難しくて毎­日心配しています。いつもいいビデオを作ってくれてありがとうご­ざいます。

[bobbyjudo]

Sadly, I will not be sitting the test this year. I took 2級 last year, and I've got my sites set on 1級 but man... it's pretty intense. Maybe 2010. Thanks for the comment. Good luck!

[Ciaela]

Yeah, I have a bad habit of not using 丁寧な言葉 in any situation...

When I talk to people who are obviously more えらい than me, I stutter and mumble, because I am afraid Im going to insult them with my rudeness..

But I get along with my JHS students great because I can end my words in っとると and　〜やん！

[crimsonigloo]

Hey Ciaela ^_^ Jeff mentions that speaking politely makes men sound 'soft' and 'feminine' Do you have any problems with your speech? And what are the word endings you mentioned in your comment? Thank you! ^_^ [x]

[bobbyjudo]

both of those endings are a dialect that Ciaela and I have learned because we're in Kyushu. っとると is a way to end a question with a present progressive verb. "Nani wo shiteimasu ka?" is "what are you doing?" In our area, you could say "Nanba shittoru to?" or even "Nanba shyotto?

I don't know exactly what's Saga-ben, what's Fukuoka (Hakata)-ben, and where those two dialects overlap but... when you get here, you'll learn your area's dialect, without even knowing that it's dialect!

[crimsonigloo]

Thank you so much for this Jeff! I can't wait for the next videos! ^_^ [x]

[giant2rabbit3]

Quite the barrage of questions :)

[crimsonigloo]

Indeed! I'm a curious cat... ^_^ [x]

[Degenskonto]

You probably are the best Japanese sensei on Youtube, atleast for me who have very little knowledge of the language. I guess Victor is probably good, but he mostly does Kanji, which i dont really care about too mucht (yet)!

Keep it up Judo-sensei

[bobbyjudo]

Thanks very much! I wouldn't mind if you just considered me a supplement though. If you're looking for good beginner level vids, try checking out crimsonigloo's page and english2nihongo by systemjap.

[bestiaccia]

Very interesting questions and answers!

[markshmily]

Yes... I agree. :D