Anyone who is interested in TZM, TVP, Kurzweil or The Singularity Institute should check out the book 'Abundance' - was written by Peter Diamandis (co-founder of The Singularity University, along with Ray). Here's a primer video entitled 'Abundance: Evidence for Abundance' /watch?v=3xJWVkytebs - Even mentions vertical farms on the site for the book :P
@mysterywhiteboy72 I'm going to leave this comment up. But be forewarned this at first glased looked like spam and I was about to treat it as such. ;)
Can you qualify your 'neo-Luddite' term you put in the title? Luddites were anti-technology to preserve jobs, while the tech-unemployment arguments, in the context of phasing out a monetary-market system, are anything but.
A neo-Luddite would be the equivalent of a DVD producer hacking and shutting down torrent websites. It's an incorrect use of the term when applied to the zeitgeist movement.
@Neanderthalcouzin That's why I specified it as "Zeitgeist Neo-Luddites." Because though they are not opposed to technology replacing labor, they are in the "current paradigm" because they believe (falsely) that technology creates net unemployment and causes wealth disparities.
No one is claiming the transition would be easy, but it does happen and society benefits as a whole whole as they do.
@machwon It's still a spurious use of the term. As for it causing unemployment, they talk about automating sectors and how this has changed a labor/industrial production economy to a service dominated one (in places like the US), and they project that as this continues, and is applied to the service sector, there won't be a sector broad and far reaching enough to absorb this. Kurzweil's comment doesn't address this.
@Neanderthalcouzin Indeed he did. He even named growing sectors of the labor force. I'll even throw in networking/IT as well. Still need humans for that gig.
Also people hate automated service kiosks. They're terrible. That's people still prefer human checkout counters and demand real people for phone support. Hell, companies include in their advertising that they have real and/or local people on their phone lines.
@machwon I'm keen to see any footage of him addressing how to deal with phasing out one sector faster than new sectors can absorb. If he comprehensively lays that out, I am more than keen. People hating automated kiosks is a generalization I don't agree with, but robots on the phone is true (don't like it myself). These are minor preferences in a wider trend though. The important point still stands, and if IT is part of the answer, which I would also be in favor of as an argument, then (cntnd)
@Neanderthalcouzin Didn't ask for you to agree with it, just asked you to accept it's true today. Lots of stores are putting less emphasis on self-checkouts because they aren't doing well as people still prefer human cashiers (unless they are only getting a couple of items) because it's more expedient. It's not just one portion of the economy that will absorb the labor, nor is it needing equal labor to be absorbed. There's nots of emerging job sectors being produced all the time...
@machwon (cntnd)....my interest is in subsidizing and providing opportunities for the high skilled, high cognitive stuff that could be taken on as we continually phase out more and more manual tasks with machines (and this is an undeniable fact). I think there is a huge danger in cutting education, research and the like when lower skilled jobs have a trend of being phased out. But ultimately, I think PJ still has a valid point: we are in competition with machines. It will never end.
@Neanderthalcouzin in theory, if we had machines doing everything for us, wouldnt we be free from wasting our own labour on it? if i had a machine that created food/air/water and allowed me to travel and go on adventures, wouldnt i be free from having to work for money for those things?
@Neanderthalcouzin We're not in competition with mechanization, we're in cooperation with them. Mechanization still creates employment though programming, development, logistics, operation, maintenance...etc. The end result is higher productivity and cheaper goods being available to those who previously couldn't afford it. It also frees up labor to more productive use doing what humans do better than machines.
@machwon It really isn't that simple--we are constantly in competition with machines as well as in cooperation. It is really not a case of either or, and neither is it positive as you made out in your comment--that's case-by-case and there are severe job losses and phasing out of entire sectors. I am extremely busy these days but when I get a moment, let me give you some references.
@Neanderthalcouzin Just wanted to say I love your videos. Thanks for making them. Also wanted to draw your attention the comment above yours in case you haven't heard anything about the book I mention. :)
Every time there's a hit to unemployment, the Luddites come out of the woodwork and point to machines as the problem an speak of the impending apocalypse. then it recovers and back into the woodwork they go. Today it's no different. "Sectors" do get phased out but new ones emerge to absorb them. It just drives prices down and wages up. Sure it's sad to see 1,000 people get laid off, you never hear how they find better work later.
@machwon "you never hear how they find better work later"
thats because it doesnt happen. a middle aged person who gets automated out of a job cant spend $100k and the next 4 years going to college. they do sales or office admin for lower pay instead
tech unemployment doesnt exist. there's always work for a human to do
but it does send all those people into low skilled, low paying service jobs which is almost as bad as being unemployed. capitalism is moronic. the public's been duped
@machwon Despite the fact that we have the resources and tech to produce a near unlimited amount of anything, capitalism has left 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 50% of all wage earners making less than $26k, ONE HALF of all Americans near or below poverty, 18% underemployed, 52 million without health insurance and 55% of all workers wasting their lives doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology
If we limited differences in income to only what is necessary to get people to do difficult or undesirable work and to give their maximum effort, we would be able to pay everyone from $115,000 per year to $460,000 per year.
That is enough to make everyone wealthy and eliminate nearly every social problem we have.
and since half our jobs can be automated with existing technology, we can pay those incomes for working 20 hours per week
@kajmobile OK, get to making that machine that can create ocean front property in Cancun, Mickey Mantle rookies cards, Stradivarius violins and Carl Thompson basses. No counterfeits, we want the real deal here.
when did i say i have a machine that can make all those things? what are you talking about? lol
i said if we had a democratic economic system, where everyone was paid from $115k to $460k, everyone would be wealthy and nearly every social problem would be fixed.
i never said i have a machine that makes rare collectible items
@machwon That is called a figure of speech. It was the use of hyperbole. Clearly I don't literally mean we can achieve that. But if that wasn't clear to you, I also said our consumption would be limited to $115k to $460k worth of goods and services which should have made it clear.
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@kajmobile You said anything and because of which we don't need money or jobs. Not true. There will always be a demand for high quality hand made goods and finite goods. Hence you need restrictions.
@machwon garbage men take out the garbage. but that is a job that we have the ability to automate. we can automate 55% of jobs with existing tech. so we should automate them all and reduce the work week to 20 hours
@machwon i dont want a fixed pay. i want to limit differences in income to just what is necessary to get people to do difficult work and give their max effort.
one way to achieve that is to pay everyone $115k, pay people who do physically or mentally difficult work (construction, science, medicine, engineering, mining, farming) $260k and pay people up to $460k in performance based jobs (executives, entrepreneurs, etc)
workers then vote to approve the national pay plan
Democracy is a Greek word. But it is not a Greek word for "voting" or "mob rule" or "majority wins". It is a Greek word for "people power". It means the power to act rests with everyone EQUALLY.
It means you have the power or freedom to act so long it doesnt reasonably violate that same freedom in others.
so the wolves dont have the freedom to kill the sheep because it reasonably violates the sheep's freedom to live
@kajmobile BS, you see it today where the majority (christian fundies) vote to take away the rights of a minority (GLBT marrage) and ignoring it's constitutionality. Your argument doesn't stand up to history.
Meanwhile capitalism gets people out of the grinding poverty socialism feudalism and communism has made for them. The poorest in America is still better off than kings 100 years ago, thanks to markets and free trade. Now that it's going away we're scratching our heads why shit's fucked.
democracy is not mob rule or voting. it is equal power.
the us has a lot of democratic elements. but it is not a fully democratic society
in fact many founders, madison in particular, were against democracy (where power was equal) and were for an aristocracy (where power rests with rich, white, land-owning men)
madison stated that democracy would mean an end to their privileged, opulent lifestyle
@kajmobile Yea Madison was against democracy, because it's a farce. Also America never had an aristocracy. You're just as delusional as these Zeitgeist nutters.
@machwon in order for the US to be democratic, everyone must have equal political and economic power.
capitalism is the opposite of democracy so the US will never be fully democratic so long as it has capitalism
2 be democratic it must be governed by this simple rule:
You have the freedom to act, think and speak - without political coercion or restraint and without economic coercion or restraint - so long as it does not reasonably violate that same right to freedom in others.
@machwon All our wealth and progress has come from SCIENCE, not capitalism! And the incentive to do science comes not just from a love of science and invention but from being paid to do science and in some cases being paid directly based on your performance. The incentive to do science does not come from capitalism.
The only thing capitalism does is just allocate our wealth unequally
u dont need capitalism in order to have free trade or markets where consumers dictate what's produced
@machwon just saying im ignorant about economics without giving a reason why is not very persuasive
for the record, my biz degree required just as many graduate level economics courses as biz courses. i worked for the fed and as an investment banker and have owned businesses.
plus economics and political science is a hobby of mine so ive read more books and listened to more thinkers on the subject than i can ever remember.
@kajmobile No, it's me telling you I'm not going to waste my time with demagogues who have absolutely no understanding of what they are arguing for and against. You have a religious belief and no amount of evidence will sway your opinion, because you base it on feeling good not on pragmatics, logic or reality. So why bother? Take care.
@machwon saying i dont know what im arguing for is ridiculous
so u cant talk (or comment) to someone who has different ideas unless u r 100% convinced u can change their worldview!? that sounds like it might a psychological disorder. but at the very least it would make u the one guilty of being a religious fanatic who has become completely closed minded
@machwon socialism or feudalism doesnt cause poverty. the lack of science and technology to develop ur productive forces does
i dont advocate soviet communism but their socialist system provided a higher standard of living to russians than their current capitalist system. they had higher incomes, rates of literacy, life expectancy. 25% now live below subsistence, 0% did in 1991. suicide rates have doubled
a recent pew poll said a large majority of russians want to return to communism
@machwon "The poorest in America is still better off than kings 100 years ago"
yikes
that is the same exact argument used 4 slavery. they said slaves had an increasing living standard and lived better than many others. ur argument doesnt make poverty right just like it didnt make slavery right
the only reason y there is poverty is BECAUSE of capitalism. it isnt because we lack resources or productive capacity. it is because capitalism allocates our production so unequally
Just like we replaced monarchies - and its private ownership of government - with democracy so the means of law making r publicly owned and controlled 4 the equal benefit of everyone, we should replace capitalism - and its private ownership of the economy - with democracy so the means of survival r publicly owned and controlled 4 the equal benefit of every1
Capitalism, like a monarchy, is a system that works well only 4 a privileged few. Democracy is a system that works well for every1
Capitalism is a society where everyone fends for themselves so that the strong can dominate the weak until society is eventually ruled entirely by a small group of rich people
Like Al Capone said, it is a thug economy where you take as much as possible and to hell with everyone else
@machwon Not if machines and technology are going to grow exponentially. I think that technological unemployment is inevitable, regardless of what new sectors come up because the rate of technology evolving by automation will surpass technology that we as humans can handle/ train and execute.
@benandreas369 ...and *if* that day comes (which might not considering all the other failed Kirzwell and other singularity crackpot's failed predictions) then we can talk about the Venus utopia. Until then talking about doing away with money for The Venus Project just promotes economic illiteracy. Promoting The Zeitgeist Movement does not only that too, but it also promotes a false conspiratorial world view as well.
I am of the opinion that there would be a move towards high cognitive input stuff, research jobs and the like, and this would in turn feedback and phase out more menial jobs even faster.
But while I recognize this I don't make the point in the overwhelmingly asinine way you do.
There is also a caveat I have: 1,000 grape pickers into 1,000 genetic sequencers & software engineers is not an easy conversion to make, no matter how easy it may be to say at a pop conference.
(1) It's possible to accept Kurzweil's principle of accelerating returns and not necessarily agree with Kurzweil's other positions. (2) Kurzweil's argument here is just that there will be new jobs because in the past there were always new jobs. This assumes the past is a good predictor of the future in this case, which potentially it is not. (3) If we achieve Kurzweilian technologies, there's no reason to keep the wage labor system in place unless society wants it. This is a cultural question.
@jonperry ...if we get to the point when that's happening, talking about it is moot. I disagree with most of falls out Ray's mouth here but this is pretty spot on. We have a whole new job field that wasn't even around 20 years ago and even after a boom and bust cycle in the 90's it's still strong and growing.
Sorry, it must have been the idiotic way that people throw Zeitgiest into the title which is all about RBE, you mean the Venus Project. Also the retarded way people use the word "debunk".
The Hasty Generalization, is the idea that there is no Technological Unemployment, this is the primes you are defending correct? Feel free to let us all know, precisely your point is about all of this, why you put up this video & altered it's meanings in the subtitles, rather then simply allowing people to listen & decide with out your thoughts forced over top of the real meaning of Kurzweil's words. Really man, are you that thick or are jus'troll'n?
@Karmathejedi1701 No that's not what I'm saying and that's not a hasty generalization. I've made my position clear, if you don't get it then you're the one who's thick.
@machwon if you can not state clearly & in a refined way, your position, & your point then you have not made one. (it also shows how good a troll you can be, by not stating you position clearly, you can then change it to fit who you are arguing with) My position is clear, Freedom, based on Global Sustainability. See,easy, one simple sentence. So again i ask, what is your point?
@Karmathejedi1701 I did that many times to GalinoreGustave and his racist furry butt buddy voiceofreason and they simply couldn't stop strawmanning my position so I gave up trying to explain it to Zeitards altogether. (I did take down the ones in response to VOR because I don't engage in dialog with racists) Why should I waste my time doing it again now that TZM is withering on the vine? No one cares about TZM anymore except a handful of people anymore so why should I bother?
@machwon LULZ, further strengthening the idea, that you are simply a troll, for you could have explained yourself, instead of using up your 500 characters to not answer the question. i'm sure you'll remove these post as well, when i get board with this thread.
@Karmathejedi1701 The only comments I delete that Zeitards make are death threats. There's been plenty of those, I might add. My position is clear, I'm not going to type it out again. It's an 200 year old economic fallacy that deserves no more discussion, especially with a dying 'movement.'
@machwon LULZ, Your [position is not clear, you again waste more time, but not just defining it, but i can be patient. & for a dying movement, it went from just under 500,000, to near 650,000 globally, further, it's easier & easier to talk about the freedoms which sustainability brings, thanks to the successes of Michael Renyolds & Earthships. Finally, monetary economy is the fallacy. It's been proven for 40-70 years, a truly dying culture doesn't give up easily. Hence your existence.
@Karmathejedi1701 Well sure, by that same logic you can say Scientology has 12 million adherents because they never ever remove people from the count when they leave in droves. My prediction: Z-day will be as big of a fail as Zeitgeist Media Festival because TZM is dead.
My position is clear, I've made many videos about it, it's only idiots like you and GalinoreGustave who don't understand it and need it spoon fed to you 80 times to finally grasp it. It's clear in this video as well.
@machwon please, where are these videos on your position, maybe i can learn something from you? & as far as your Z-day predictions & "people.... leaving in droves" i have 2 words for you; Joe Rogan, or did you miss that he had Peter Joseph on his show the other day. It's so funny how you try to bend the truth to fit your beliefs. Ahh well, i await your perspective, which is your best video, you think i could learn the most from, about your point of view?
@machwon please, where are these videos on your position, maybe i can learn something from you? & as far as your Z-day predictions & "people.... leaving in droves" i have 2 words for you; Joe Rogan, or did you miss that he had Peter Joseph on his show the other day. It's so funny how you try to bend the truth to fit your beliefs. Ahh well, i await your perspective, which is your best video, you think i could learn the most from, about your point of view?
2. Whoop-de-fucking-doo. Does Merola want a cookie? Joe Rogan isn't any kind of litmus test of popularity. FFS, Doug Stanhope was on a months ago and I bet more people have him fresher in their minds even though he hasn't done shit since The Man Show. And seriously? Joe Rogan? Let me know when he's on Jay Leno or Jimmy Kimmel before you expect me to give a flying fuck about a stupid media appearance. Still doesn't say anything about TZM membership.
@machwon nice to see you still haven't defined your standards at all yet, again, answer the question, where is this video you say exists on your actual p.o.v.
@Karmathejedi1701 How about this, let's see how your guy's presidential candidate Scott Keller is doing in the polls. Hmm, not even on the radar. He only has 29 YouTube subscribers. When is critical mass again?
@machwon nice attempt at a taunt, wow, it's so funny, you waist all this time still not giving your actual position on anything.... it must be nice not to stand for anything, however, it tends to lead towards falling for anything. i await your actual position.
@Karmathejedi1701 Now you're acting like an amnesia patent. I'm not going to say why I haven't typed it out for you because it's the exact same reason I won't type ot my position again. You're an idiot. Absolute dipshit. That or you've been drinking the GG and are drunk commenting. Even if you did understand it, I have no reason to debate it with Zeitards because TZM is dead. Take care.
@machwon TZM is far from dead, again 13million views on the last film dude.
And again, you prove you have no position, you continue to post & post & post, but you have no position, that intellectual dishonesty. Thank you for continuing to prove you're just a troll. Tell Boadie, Mario, Kush & the other Conspiracy Science Zeitrolls i said hi. & thanks again machwon, it been nice, not sparing with you. TTFN.
@Karmathejedi1701 Resort to calling me a troll, typical Zeitarded logic. Anyone who dares to disagree with Merola for a good reason is a troll. Clearly.
also this video has way more views than TZM and it's been up for less than half as long:
@machwon it's not name calling when your "opponent" doesn't or can't give an answer to the simple question of what do you actually stand for. but instead, makes post after post after post, of non answer. It's obvious, or you know your defending a dead position because technology has put so many -ism's out of business. & Off the Grid Sustainable technology will put much more out of business. Makerbots & Repraps will likely put Toys'R'Us out of business, at least force them online only.
@machwon the toroid energy fields are pretty to watch but beyond the stuff about the Federal Reserve, it was a bunch of fluff, not at all as hard hitting or serious as any of the Zeitgeist films. What do you care? Did you miss me? Awww, troll love, right back at you pal ;)
@machwon actually, we're called truthers, as in people who believe in this thing called the truth, but you wouldn't know anything about that. Calling me crazy is a distraction, an Ad Hominem fallacy, a way for you to, try, to keep the truth from being dealt with. Your attacks are as big a joke to me as u are.
Just scroll down people, i've shown him up in a real bad way & he's trying to re-dominate the thread with BS so his fail isn't so noticeable at the top of the thread.
@Karmathejedi1701 That 9/11 was really done by Muslim cult extremists and that you're a nut like Merola who takes David Icke seriously? I don't think you choosing the name Tinfoil was tongue-in-cheek.
@machwon not that i need to debate you on 9/11, but the reports of real people & fire fighters talking about multiple explosions is all i need to hear to tell me that there were bombs in the building, & considering that a Bush family member was in charge of security at the time, yeah, muslim extremists, yeah, right.... & it's not tongue in cheek forgetting Ickes reptilian stuff, his bloodline/power structure research is on point.
@Karmathejedi1701 It's well deserved. 9/11 twoofers are nutty. No-plainers, space beams, nanothermite, jews, illumanati, reptillians, LIHOPs ...etc. All tinfoil and have no valid basis in reality. Unless of course you strawman the "offical" version, lie about scientific facts and quote-mine first responders and reporters.
Also if you think there's reptile people that walk among us it's impossible to ad-hom bomb you because there is no word that accurately describes how insane you are.
@machwon actually, thermite gets nasty when you try to cool the chemical reaction with liquid nitrogen, & as fare as quote mining is concerned, it's not just from 1st responders, /watch?v=xXfJcaA7WSk lets see, that BBC Lies, explosions, & 9/11 commissioners being railroaded to not find out the Truth, Oh My!
The point of the reptilians only gets interesting when you look at the science behind the triune brain & how the R-complex (as in reptilian complex) controls fear reactions.
@Karmathejedi1701 All of which were debunked and RKOwens4 did a fantastic job exposing 9/11 Twoofer Lies & distortions.
And I hate to be the bearer of bad news: There are no reptile people. Sorry, bro. It's all antisemetic nonsense debunked in the 1930s in a new age reptilian package. Icke is the biggest nut of them all. Bill Cooper comes in a close second with all that JFK was shot by the limo driver nonsense and his ever changing UFO stories.
@machwon i've seen @RKOwens4 disinfo site, do you think he'd do an episode of my podcast? (btw: don't need 9/11 to prove that america commits atrocities at home and abroad)
Haven't broken any news to me, i never met 1, i just said the science about the brain stems r-complex controlling fear was interesting. & i can see how you're itching to call me antisemitic, troll tactic 6?
We're controlled by the Federal Reserve, it creates $ out of thin air, to fund gov't to oppress the people.
@Karmathejedi1701 You never met a reptillian because they don't exist. It's the paranoid delusions of a former soccer player went lunatic that you bought hook, line and sinker.
Fiat money is irrelevant to the conversation. I will ask you this though:
@machwon sounds fun, a tag team match? Ken Doc & i vs. .....hell, you, & congress would be more fun, but what ever dipshits you want to bring into this, sure!
@Karmathejedi1701 Oh, by the way, my show is a Ridicule Free Zone, the debate ends the moment one of us makes fun of the other, some how, i doubt, you will have the courage?
@Karmathejedi1701 nice keep it up---the anti TZM and RBE trolls need to see that the world will not take their stupid shit...their illogical claims.... their insane economics system as truth.
depends what you mean by 'jobs'. paid employment is on the way out. technology IS replacing people. just ask the travel agents who are losing their jobs 'cos people can do it themselves online.
Epic Fail, none of this has anything to do with ZM, save for a stretch of the truth into a relationship that doesn't match the facts. This is a mild modification of the Fallacies known as both, Hasty Generalization & Misleading Vividness. google what words you don't understand in relationship to Nizkor or NizkorProject, either way. Anyone with any intellectual honesty, knows i've just refuted your bullshit @machwon
@machwon i know technological unemployment exists because my wife helped develop the computerized training program that put her out of corporate training.
& No, i refer to nizkor because it's a solid, easy reference guide on detecting fallacy, Which means it's basically the means to end Conspiracy Science & it's inbreed mentality skeptic channels. $=problem, the whole monetary market system must go if this planet's to survive, because we consume like a virus, sustainability is the key.
@DNorthInvestigation Didn't address how it's a hasty generalization, he just went on a tangent about other shit. But nice try defending your butt buddy.
You can't debunk ZM coz one can't debunk the truth. ZM is like OWS, it's not a vertical movement. There is no "Boss" u can arrest when it becomes to evident the truth will hit those in the face that are in power. It's a horizontal movement and all it's followers are "bosses" and u can't arrest them all can u ;)? Thats why ZM and OWS will overcome the sick establishment on this planet in the end because it's the only sane option left.
@machwon No it's not. Thats only on pentagons and other trolls wishlist. OWS and ZM is very much alive and no matter what ur sick twisted lil' mind says to u it will never die.
@kaxitaksi How many people showed up to Zeitard Media Festival again? Oh, right. Shit was a non-event. Also "Dr." Peter Joseph Merola Esq. the Jordan Maxwell loving conspiracy nut is your leader.
@machwon I have no leader and I don't need one. Only puns like u need leaders to follow. ZM and OWS is thriving and getting momentum all over the world and u have to be either stupid or republican to not see that. Now go troll somewhere else :))
@kaxitaksi No, Merola is your leader. He admitted to being your leader after TVP told him love was over. I'm not stupid, republican nor trolling. But troll is Zeitgeist cult lingo for people who disagree with TZM. Like how people who disagree with Scientology are "suppressive people."
Also if I was trolling, which I'm not, why can't I troll on my own video comments? Where else should I troll? Your videos?
@machwon Spoken like someone who has no real idea what the Zeitgeist Movement is all about. So do you like it, you know, all the anger you spew? Does it make you feel like a good person? Are you Righteously Indignant about having to change to keep up with the world? Let's see, you're pro-money, .gov & religion, are the ultimate mind-control games, & you are out to keep people in that box, like a gatekeeper. You must be a very insecure person, to try to control & manipulate, as you do.
One of the points you seem to be missing is regardless if new technologies jobs and spawn up in the future, why should people have to work? Or more accurately, why should we have to "earn a living" even if there were more than enough jobs? We are not lowly creatures. We have something no other species on the planet has - technology. Why not make good use of it to it's full potential and make human society the best it can be, and do without the 9 to 5 bullshit "I need money to live" routine.
Technological unemployment is real and is not going away. You will never ever be able to employee enough of the population to NOT have and unemployment problem. The more efficient you are the less human capital and capital you need. That is the point of being efficient. You debunked nothing. Ray knows this but does not want to get people thinking
more crap look a Detroit & Michigan in general. Then look at checkout be automated. Then look at the u.d. in general and just think how will we ever get real jobs back lol pathetic.
Oh, and I'm sure you are well aware that Google Zeitgeist is not affiliated with The Zeitgeist Movement. But, then again, you weren't really looking for truth to defend your arguments, just allusions.
@aurora7207 I guess you must be new to TZM or you've been slacking and not watching the TZM propaganda. You better get busy and start catching up... chop chop.
"Part of the Zeitgeist Movement Z-Day 2010 lectures in central London. Includes: A look at the work of Ray Kurzweil"
hmm, Ray Kurzweil... Doesn't he sell vitamins now? I bet his veiwpoint isn't clouded at all by his millions of dollars from books and lectures. Sure, lets ask him if Capitalism is a good system, he's objective, right?
@aurora7207 He's a crank, but for some reason TZM spends an awful lot of effort promoting this crank's cranky crankness.
It's not like Merola ever pushes alternative medicine woo... Oh wait, I forgot he was pimping his brothers alt-med movie "Burzynski, the Movie." I guess the turds don't float far from each other.
dont take ray kurweil predictions too seriously. in his book "the singularity is near" he made specific predictions about the future of technology including those for 2010. none of themhave come true or close to coming true
I agree, new jobs are emerging all the time from the advancement of knowledge and technology. However these jobs are becoming increasingly more innovative and less mechanical. Research done on motivation these past decades has shown that extrinsic rewards (eg money) actually lower the performance of innovative tasks, they are only effective when it comes to mechanical tasks. This is because it promotes a goal orientation as opposed to a process orientation. TED talk on it (/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y).
@OxiDemonik It's only more money as a creative incentive is a hindrance, they sill will seek a better paying job and better work environment. Hence you need a market.
@machwon Actually, it is the existence of an extrinsic incentive outright that lowers performance on innovative/creative tasks. Those who had no reward completed these tasks faster than those with even a small reward. Hence a system which has automated all mechanical tasks (which do require extrinsic incentives) requires no monetary incentive. And it is the mechanical tasks which will be used to produce the goods and services for the population, as it is currently.
@OxiDemonik That's not the point of this video. Sorry if you were too busy sucking Peter Joesph Merola's dick to realize what the video you were watching was about.
@machwon Ah, yes it is... Your video is entitled "Ray Kurzweil Debunks Zeitgeist Neo-Luddites on Google Zeitgeist". In other words, to debunk the zeitgeist movement in general, which quite obviously you have failed in doing. Also, the zeitgeist movement has no association with neo-luddism which by the way advocates an opposition to modern technology (fail). I was hoping to have a calm, rational conversation, but it seem your dogmatic and emotional baggage will not allow you to do so.
@machwon Perhaps "Ray Kurzweil Debunks Technological Unemployment on Google Zeitgeist" would have been a more appropriate title don't you think? I still find your reference to neo-luddism hilarious, you obviously have no real understanding of what the Zeitgeist movement advocates.
@machwon haha, I love this definition "In modern usage, "Luddite" is a term describing those opposed to industrialisation, automation, computerisation or new technologies in general". How on earth can you possibly rationally associate that with the concepts put forward by the movement?
@machwon I completely accept the logic. Automated labour means more unemployment which means lower purchasing power. However automated labour also means a higher production of goods and services which decreases the purchasing power requirement. But to associate TZM with neo-luddism as done in your title cannot be justified in accordance with the above definitions. And again TZM also applies another alternative logic which assumes technological unemployment is false, which I mentioned earlier.
@OxiDemonik If you're going to use terms like "lower purchasing power" please use the correctly. If anything automation causes deflation because it makes products cheaper, making the dollar stonger. Unemployment due to automation is always temporary and is never permanent. If that was the case there would be 30% unemployment because automation and mechanization has been around for decades and to it's logical ends, 90% if you count when we invented shovels. It's called a fallacy for a reason.
@machwon And I already said I accepted this logic... but my point still stands, TZM has no relationship with the beliefs of neo-luddism, every definition I give you, you just ignore it, and then you refer me to the luddite fallacy, which by the way, other TZM members accept as well (alternative logic remember?). I have the guts to acknowledge my misuse of the term lower purchasing power, have you got the guts to acknowledge your misuse of the term luddite?
@OxiDemonik No, you guys are neo-Luddies. What you prescribe for the problem is irrelavant because you falsly believe the same premise.
"The Luddite fallacy is an opinion in development economics related to the belief that labour-saving technologies (i.e., technologies that increase output-per-worker) increase unemployment by reducing demand for labour."
@machwon Wow, lol. You really can't stand being wrong. Firstly not all members accept technological unemployment to be true, and secondly you call us "neo-luddites" in your title which has an entirely different definition to "the luddite fallacy". Neo-luddism is "a personal world view opposing any modern technology[1] that displaces workers and increases unemployment". If you referring to "the luddite fallacy" you should have used that in your title. Don't be a coward, admit you are wrong.
@machwon Opposed to what? Modern technology? There is absolutely no opposition to modern technology within the movement in regards to the current paradigm. I have no idea how you've have gotten this impression.
@machwon Those in the movement who do believe technological unemployment to be real, believe that mechanisation will slowly allow people to work less hours, while still maintaining their purchasing power due to the increase in production. And that eventually this will lead to a society in which very little, or possibly no human mechanical labour is required. Allowing humans to be primarily focused on innovative tasks which have been shown to require no extrinsic incentives. Hence no money.
@OxiDemonik So if I displaced 100 workers tomorrow for a machine and the news media picked up on it, I wouldn't get angry letters from Zeitgeisters? "Y U DO THIS?"
@machwon Nah you wouldn't. Although you would still need workers to maintain those systems, and so if you divided this work among the 100 workers, each would work and earn less. However due to the increase in productivity through mechanisation they would not need as much money as there are more goods, and therefore the cost of goods is lower.
@machwon This assumes you are an ethical and rational business owner. You wouldn't do this? Why not? It works out for you, it works out for your workers?
@OxiDemonik Because that's not how deflation works. You just don't cut wages and expect prices to fall. Those workers will just quit and find better work.
@machwon This assumes mechanisation is taking place in all sectors, and on a societal scale, and there isn't much mechanical labour to go around, seeing as most innovative fields require qualifications it is hard for many of these people to find jobs.
@OxiDemonik That's why there's apprenticeships, on the job training, and employeer paid further education in the real world. Not to mention career education with a various array of payment plans for those who can't afford it. Not to mention grants, scholarships, loans for 4 year institutions. There's no reason not to have some kind of education today other than laziness.
@machwon None of these guarantee a well paid career, especially in current economic circumstances, and many are left in debt working multiple jobs to pay off their university fees or fees from other educational institutions.
@OxiDemonik I'm not in debt over my education. Probably because I didn't get a degree in liberal arts, sociology, or a dead language like a lot of the OWS idiots.
@machwon Well, you know, a lot of people aren't as well off as you, you can't blame these people all the time, it's not always their fault. So you got a good job out of your education, that's great, but in my eyes I don't think it's fair that these people be punished because the field they happen to be interested in is hard to find a job in or doesn't pay well. Education is a basic right and should be free, not everyone has a solid idea of what they want to do, and may change their minds etc.
butbutbut The Rockefellers
TheAwakenedHeretic 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
aurora7207 4 weeks ago
Anyone who is interested in TZM, TVP, Kurzweil or The Singularity Institute should check out the book 'Abundance' - was written by Peter Diamandis (co-founder of The Singularity University, along with Ray). Here's a primer video entitled 'Abundance: Evidence for Abundance' /watch?v=3xJWVkytebs - Even mentions vertical farms on the site for the book :P
mysterywhiteboy72 1 month ago 2
@mysterywhiteboy72 I'm going to leave this comment up. But be forewarned this at first glased looked like spam and I was about to treat it as such. ;)
machwon 4 weeks ago
Can you qualify your 'neo-Luddite' term you put in the title? Luddites were anti-technology to preserve jobs, while the tech-unemployment arguments, in the context of phasing out a monetary-market system, are anything but.
A neo-Luddite would be the equivalent of a DVD producer hacking and shutting down torrent websites. It's an incorrect use of the term when applied to the zeitgeist movement.
Neanderthalcouzin 1 month ago
@Neanderthalcouzin That's why I specified it as "Zeitgeist Neo-Luddites." Because though they are not opposed to technology replacing labor, they are in the "current paradigm" because they believe (falsely) that technology creates net unemployment and causes wealth disparities.
No one is claiming the transition would be easy, but it does happen and society benefits as a whole whole as they do.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon It's still a spurious use of the term. As for it causing unemployment, they talk about automating sectors and how this has changed a labor/industrial production economy to a service dominated one (in places like the US), and they project that as this continues, and is applied to the service sector, there won't be a sector broad and far reaching enough to absorb this. Kurzweil's comment doesn't address this.
Neanderthalcouzin 1 month ago
@Neanderthalcouzin Indeed he did. He even named growing sectors of the labor force. I'll even throw in networking/IT as well. Still need humans for that gig.
Also people hate automated service kiosks. They're terrible. That's people still prefer human checkout counters and demand real people for phone support. Hell, companies include in their advertising that they have real and/or local people on their phone lines.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon I'm keen to see any footage of him addressing how to deal with phasing out one sector faster than new sectors can absorb. If he comprehensively lays that out, I am more than keen. People hating automated kiosks is a generalization I don't agree with, but robots on the phone is true (don't like it myself). These are minor preferences in a wider trend though. The important point still stands, and if IT is part of the answer, which I would also be in favor of as an argument, then (cntnd)
Neanderthalcouzin 1 month ago
@Neanderthalcouzin Didn't ask for you to agree with it, just asked you to accept it's true today. Lots of stores are putting less emphasis on self-checkouts because they aren't doing well as people still prefer human cashiers (unless they are only getting a couple of items) because it's more expedient. It's not just one portion of the economy that will absorb the labor, nor is it needing equal labor to be absorbed. There's nots of emerging job sectors being produced all the time...
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon (cntnd)....my interest is in subsidizing and providing opportunities for the high skilled, high cognitive stuff that could be taken on as we continually phase out more and more manual tasks with machines (and this is an undeniable fact). I think there is a huge danger in cutting education, research and the like when lower skilled jobs have a trend of being phased out. But ultimately, I think PJ still has a valid point: we are in competition with machines. It will never end.
Neanderthalcouzin 1 month ago
@Neanderthalcouzin in theory, if we had machines doing everything for us, wouldnt we be free from wasting our own labour on it? if i had a machine that created food/air/water and allowed me to travel and go on adventures, wouldnt i be free from having to work for money for those things?
lee0122333 1 month ago
@Neanderthalcouzin We're not in competition with mechanization, we're in cooperation with them. Mechanization still creates employment though programming, development, logistics, operation, maintenance...etc. The end result is higher productivity and cheaper goods being available to those who previously couldn't afford it. It also frees up labor to more productive use doing what humans do better than machines.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon It really isn't that simple--we are constantly in competition with machines as well as in cooperation. It is really not a case of either or, and neither is it positive as you made out in your comment--that's case-by-case and there are severe job losses and phasing out of entire sectors. I am extremely busy these days but when I get a moment, let me give you some references.
Neanderthalcouzin 1 month ago
@Neanderthalcouzin Just wanted to say I love your videos. Thanks for making them. Also wanted to draw your attention the comment above yours in case you haven't heard anything about the book I mention. :)
mysterywhiteboy72 1 month ago
@mysterywhiteboy72 Thanks a lot! I'll be sure to check out the book too.
Neanderthalcouzin 4 weeks ago
@Neanderthalcouzin I feel you, I've been p. busy myself.
Every time there's a hit to unemployment, the Luddites come out of the woodwork and point to machines as the problem an speak of the impending apocalypse. then it recovers and back into the woodwork they go. Today it's no different. "Sectors" do get phased out but new ones emerge to absorb them. It just drives prices down and wages up. Sure it's sad to see 1,000 people get laid off, you never hear how they find better work later.
machwon 4 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@machwon "you never hear how they find better work later"
thats because it doesnt happen. a middle aged person who gets automated out of a job cant spend $100k and the next 4 years going to college. they do sales or office admin for lower pay instead
tech unemployment doesnt exist. there's always work for a human to do
but it does send all those people into low skilled, low paying service jobs which is almost as bad as being unemployed. capitalism is moronic. the public's been duped
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@machwon Despite the fact that we have the resources and tech to produce a near unlimited amount of anything, capitalism has left 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 50% of all wage earners making less than $26k, ONE HALF of all Americans near or below poverty, 18% underemployed, 52 million without health insurance and 55% of all workers wasting their lives doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology
we need 2 replace capitalism with democracy
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@kajmobile "Despite the fact that we have the resources and tech to produce a near unlimited amount of anything"
Nope.avi
machwon 2 weeks ago
@machwon "Nope.avi"
Yup.mpg
If we limited differences in income to only what is necessary to get people to do difficult or undesirable work and to give their maximum effort, we would be able to pay everyone from $115,000 per year to $460,000 per year.
That is enough to make everyone wealthy and eliminate nearly every social problem we have.
and since half our jobs can be automated with existing technology, we can pay those incomes for working 20 hours per week
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@kajmobile OK, get to making that machine that can create ocean front property in Cancun, Mickey Mantle rookies cards, Stradivarius violins and Carl Thompson basses. No counterfeits, we want the real deal here.
machwon 2 weeks ago
@machwon huh!?!?
when did i say i have a machine that can make all those things? what are you talking about? lol
i said if we had a democratic economic system, where everyone was paid from $115k to $460k, everyone would be wealthy and nearly every social problem would be fixed.
i never said i have a machine that makes rare collectible items
bizarre.
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@kajmobile " Despite the fact that we have the resources and tech to produce a near unlimited amount of *anything,*"
There are somethings robots can't make.
for everything else, there's gold.
Paid for by the Coalition of People Who Think Words Should Actually Mean Things.
machwon 2 weeks ago
@machwon That is called a figure of speech. It was the use of hyperbole. Clearly I don't literally mean we can achieve that. But if that wasn't clear to you, I also said our consumption would be limited to $115k to $460k worth of goods and services which should have made it clear.
Paid for by the Coalition of People Who Want To Educate Readers On The Subtlety Of Human Language
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@kajmobile You said anything and because of which we don't need money or jobs. Not true. There will always be a demand for high quality hand made goods and finite goods. Hence you need restrictions.
machwon 2 weeks ago
@machwon huh!?!
when did i say we dont need money or jobs!?! what are you talking about? lol
i said everyone was paid from $115k to $460k (MONEY that u get from a JOB).
bizarre
this comment seems oddly familiar
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@kajmobile fair enough. Turned off my water this morning for maintenance. Hench no shower or coffee yet so I'm just scanning.
So you want a democracy and a fixed pay. So who takes out the garbage?
machwon 2 weeks ago
@machwon garbage men take out the garbage. but that is a job that we have the ability to automate. we can automate 55% of jobs with existing tech. so we should automate them all and reduce the work week to 20 hours
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@machwon i dont want a fixed pay. i want to limit differences in income to just what is necessary to get people to do difficult work and give their max effort.
one way to achieve that is to pay everyone $115k, pay people who do physically or mentally difficult work (construction, science, medicine, engineering, mining, farming) $260k and pay people up to $460k in performance based jobs (executives, entrepreneurs, etc)
workers then vote to approve the national pay plan
kajmobile 2 weeks ago
@kajmobile Democracy is such a fail concept. 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
machwon 2 weeks ago
@machwon your understanding of democracy is wrong
Democracy is a Greek word. But it is not a Greek word for "voting" or "mob rule" or "majority wins". It is a Greek word for "people power". It means the power to act rests with everyone EQUALLY.
It means you have the power or freedom to act so long it doesnt reasonably violate that same freedom in others.
so the wolves dont have the freedom to kill the sheep because it reasonably violates the sheep's freedom to live
kajmobile 1 week ago
@kajmobile BS, you see it today where the majority (christian fundies) vote to take away the rights of a minority (GLBT marrage) and ignoring it's constitutionality. Your argument doesn't stand up to history.
Meanwhile capitalism gets people out of the grinding poverty socialism feudalism and communism has made for them. The poorest in America is still better off than kings 100 years ago, thanks to markets and free trade. Now that it's going away we're scratching our heads why shit's fucked.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon i never said any of that is democratic
democracy is not mob rule or voting. it is equal power.
the us has a lot of democratic elements. but it is not a fully democratic society
in fact many founders, madison in particular, were against democracy (where power was equal) and were for an aristocracy (where power rests with rich, white, land-owning men)
madison stated that democracy would mean an end to their privileged, opulent lifestyle
kajmobile 1 week ago
@kajmobile Yea Madison was against democracy, because it's a farce. Also America never had an aristocracy. You're just as delusional as these Zeitgeist nutters.
machwon 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@machwon "America never had an aristocracy"
lol. it had slavery for half its existence and used to only allow white, land-owning men to vote.
that certainly meets the dictionary definition of aristocracy where only an elite few rule.
it would behoove u to read a history book every once in a while
"You're just as delusional as these Zeitgeist nutters"
You are just as delusional as these libertarian/austrian nutters.
kajmobile 1 week ago
@machwon in order for the US to be democratic, everyone must have equal political and economic power.
capitalism is the opposite of democracy so the US will never be fully democratic so long as it has capitalism
2 be democratic it must be governed by this simple rule:
You have the freedom to act, think and speak - without political coercion or restraint and without economic coercion or restraint - so long as it does not reasonably violate that same right to freedom in others.
kajmobile 1 week ago
@machwon All our wealth and progress has come from SCIENCE, not capitalism! And the incentive to do science comes not just from a love of science and invention but from being paid to do science and in some cases being paid directly based on your performance. The incentive to do science does not come from capitalism.
The only thing capitalism does is just allocate our wealth unequally
u dont need capitalism in order to have free trade or markets where consumers dictate what's produced
kajmobile 1 week ago
@kajmobile You are rally woefully ignorant about economics and the nuances in other's political philosophy.
It would behoove you to read a book every once in a while.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon just saying im ignorant about economics without giving a reason why is not very persuasive
for the record, my biz degree required just as many graduate level economics courses as biz courses. i worked for the fed and as an investment banker and have owned businesses.
plus economics and political science is a hobby of mine so ive read more books and listened to more thinkers on the subject than i can ever remember.
so im pretty well informed
kajmobile 1 week ago
@kajmobile No, it's me telling you I'm not going to waste my time with demagogues who have absolutely no understanding of what they are arguing for and against. You have a religious belief and no amount of evidence will sway your opinion, because you base it on feeling good not on pragmatics, logic or reality. So why bother? Take care.
machwon 1 week ago
@machwon saying i dont know what im arguing for is ridiculous
so u cant talk (or comment) to someone who has different ideas unless u r 100% convinced u can change their worldview!? that sounds like it might a psychological disorder. but at the very least it would make u the one guilty of being a religious fanatic who has become completely closed minded
well, enjoy ur stay in the bubble
kajmobile 1 week ago
@machwon socialism or feudalism doesnt cause poverty. the lack of science and technology to develop ur productive forces does
i dont advocate soviet communism but their socialist system provided a higher standard of living to russians than their current capitalist system. they had higher incomes, rates of literacy, life expectancy. 25% now live below subsistence, 0% did in 1991. suicide rates have doubled
a recent pew poll said a large majority of russians want to return to communism
kajmobile 1 week ago
@machwon "The poorest in America is still better off than kings 100 years ago"
yikes
that is the same exact argument used 4 slavery. they said slaves had an increasing living standard and lived better than many others. ur argument doesnt make poverty right just like it didnt make slavery right
the only reason y there is poverty is BECAUSE of capitalism. it isnt because we lack resources or productive capacity. it is because capitalism allocates our production so unequally
kajmobile 1 week ago
@kajmobile Bye.
machwon 1 week ago
Just like we replaced monarchies - and its private ownership of government - with democracy so the means of law making r publicly owned and controlled 4 the equal benefit of everyone, we should replace capitalism - and its private ownership of the economy - with democracy so the means of survival r publicly owned and controlled 4 the equal benefit of every1
Capitalism, like a monarchy, is a system that works well only 4 a privileged few. Democracy is a system that works well for every1
kajmobile 1 week ago
@machwon Capitalism is such a fail concept.
Capitalism is a society where everyone fends for themselves so that the strong can dominate the weak until society is eventually ruled entirely by a small group of rich people
Like Al Capone said, it is a thug economy where you take as much as possible and to hell with everyone else
kajmobile 1 week ago
@machwon Not if machines and technology are going to grow exponentially. I think that technological unemployment is inevitable, regardless of what new sectors come up because the rate of technology evolving by automation will surpass technology that we as humans can handle/ train and execute.
benandreas369 1 month ago
@benandreas369 ...and *if* that day comes (which might not considering all the other failed Kirzwell and other singularity crackpot's failed predictions) then we can talk about the Venus utopia. Until then talking about doing away with money for The Venus Project just promotes economic illiteracy. Promoting The Zeitgeist Movement does not only that too, but it also promotes a false conspiratorial world view as well.
machwon 1 month ago
I am of the opinion that there would be a move towards high cognitive input stuff, research jobs and the like, and this would in turn feedback and phase out more menial jobs even faster.
But while I recognize this I don't make the point in the overwhelmingly asinine way you do.
There is also a caveat I have: 1,000 grape pickers into 1,000 genetic sequencers & software engineers is not an easy conversion to make, no matter how easy it may be to say at a pop conference.
Neanderthalcouzin 1 month ago
(1) It's possible to accept Kurzweil's principle of accelerating returns and not necessarily agree with Kurzweil's other positions. (2) Kurzweil's argument here is just that there will be new jobs because in the past there were always new jobs. This assumes the past is a good predictor of the future in this case, which potentially it is not. (3) If we achieve Kurzweilian technologies, there's no reason to keep the wage labor system in place unless society wants it. This is a cultural question.
jonperry 1 month ago
@jonperry ...if we get to the point when that's happening, talking about it is moot. I disagree with most of falls out Ray's mouth here but this is pretty spot on. We have a whole new job field that wasn't even around 20 years ago and even after a boom and bust cycle in the 90's it's still strong and growing.
machwon 1 month ago
wha exactly was debunked about a resource based economy. Is this for real?
Vegetabledishes 2 months ago
@Vegetabledishes Where did I say this had to do with an RBE? Jesus, you people are thick.
machwon 2 months ago
Sorry, it must have been the idiotic way that people throw Zeitgiest into the title which is all about RBE, you mean the Venus Project. Also the retarded way people use the word "debunk".
Vegetabledishes 2 months ago
@Vegetabledishes No, you just lack reading comprehension.
machwon 2 months ago
The Hasty Generalization, is the idea that there is no Technological Unemployment, this is the primes you are defending correct? Feel free to let us all know, precisely your point is about all of this, why you put up this video & altered it's meanings in the subtitles, rather then simply allowing people to listen & decide with out your thoughts forced over top of the real meaning of Kurzweil's words. Really man, are you that thick or are jus'troll'n?
Karmathejedi1701 2 months ago
@Karmathejedi1701 No that's not what I'm saying and that's not a hasty generalization. I've made my position clear, if you don't get it then you're the one who's thick.
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon if you can not state clearly & in a refined way, your position, & your point then you have not made one. (it also shows how good a troll you can be, by not stating you position clearly, you can then change it to fit who you are arguing with) My position is clear, Freedom, based on Global Sustainability. See,easy, one simple sentence. So again i ask, what is your point?
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 I did that many times to GalinoreGustave and his racist furry butt buddy voiceofreason and they simply couldn't stop strawmanning my position so I gave up trying to explain it to Zeitards altogether. (I did take down the ones in response to VOR because I don't engage in dialog with racists) Why should I waste my time doing it again now that TZM is withering on the vine? No one cares about TZM anymore except a handful of people anymore so why should I bother?
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon LULZ, further strengthening the idea, that you are simply a troll, for you could have explained yourself, instead of using up your 500 characters to not answer the question. i'm sure you'll remove these post as well, when i get board with this thread.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 The only comments I delete that Zeitards make are death threats. There's been plenty of those, I might add. My position is clear, I'm not going to type it out again. It's an 200 year old economic fallacy that deserves no more discussion, especially with a dying 'movement.'
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon LULZ, Your [position is not clear, you again waste more time, but not just defining it, but i can be patient. & for a dying movement, it went from just under 500,000, to near 650,000 globally, further, it's easier & easier to talk about the freedoms which sustainability brings, thanks to the successes of Michael Renyolds & Earthships. Finally, monetary economy is the fallacy. It's been proven for 40-70 years, a truly dying culture doesn't give up easily. Hence your existence.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Well sure, by that same logic you can say Scientology has 12 million adherents because they never ever remove people from the count when they leave in droves. My prediction: Z-day will be as big of a fail as Zeitgeist Media Festival because TZM is dead.
My position is clear, I've made many videos about it, it's only idiots like you and GalinoreGustave who don't understand it and need it spoon fed to you 80 times to finally grasp it. It's clear in this video as well.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon please, where are these videos on your position, maybe i can learn something from you? & as far as your Z-day predictions & "people.... leaving in droves" i have 2 words for you; Joe Rogan, or did you miss that he had Peter Joseph on his show the other day. It's so funny how you try to bend the truth to fit your beliefs. Ahh well, i await your perspective, which is your best video, you think i could learn the most from, about your point of view?
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@machwon please, where are these videos on your position, maybe i can learn something from you? & as far as your Z-day predictions & "people.... leaving in droves" i have 2 words for you; Joe Rogan, or did you miss that he had Peter Joseph on his show the other day. It's so funny how you try to bend the truth to fit your beliefs. Ahh well, i await your perspective, which is your best video, you think i could learn the most from, about your point of view?
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701
1. Already said this one.
2. Whoop-de-fucking-doo. Does Merola want a cookie? Joe Rogan isn't any kind of litmus test of popularity. FFS, Doug Stanhope was on a months ago and I bet more people have him fresher in their minds even though he hasn't done shit since The Man Show. And seriously? Joe Rogan? Let me know when he's on Jay Leno or Jimmy Kimmel before you expect me to give a flying fuck about a stupid media appearance. Still doesn't say anything about TZM membership.
machwon 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Nice to see you have such low standards.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon nice to see you still haven't defined your standards at all yet, again, answer the question, where is this video you say exists on your actual p.o.v.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 How about this, let's see how your guy's presidential candidate Scott Keller is doing in the polls. Hmm, not even on the radar. He only has 29 YouTube subscribers. When is critical mass again?
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon nice attempt at a taunt, wow, it's so funny, you waist all this time still not giving your actual position on anything.... it must be nice not to stand for anything, however, it tends to lead towards falling for anything. i await your actual position.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Now you're acting like an amnesia patent. I'm not going to say why I haven't typed it out for you because it's the exact same reason I won't type ot my position again. You're an idiot. Absolute dipshit. That or you've been drinking the GG and are drunk commenting. Even if you did understand it, I have no reason to debate it with Zeitards because TZM is dead. Take care.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon TZM is far from dead, again 13million views on the last film dude.
And again, you prove you have no position, you continue to post & post & post, but you have no position, that intellectual dishonesty. Thank you for continuing to prove you're just a troll. Tell Boadie, Mario, Kush & the other Conspiracy Science Zeitrolls i said hi. & thanks again machwon, it been nice, not sparing with you. TTFN.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Resort to calling me a troll, typical Zeitarded logic. Anyone who dares to disagree with Merola for a good reason is a troll. Clearly.
also this video has way more views than TZM and it's been up for less than half as long:
/watch?v=LUjn3RpkcKY lol
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon it's not name calling when your "opponent" doesn't or can't give an answer to the simple question of what do you actually stand for. but instead, makes post after post after post, of non answer. It's obvious, or you know your defending a dead position because technology has put so many -ism's out of business. & Off the Grid Sustainable technology will put much more out of business. Makerbots & Repraps will likely put Toys'R'Us out of business, at least force them online only.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 I just hate repeating myself over and over and that's all you're trying to get me to do. I'm not your TalkBoy.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon thank you for the easy win.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
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thelion2430 1 month ago
bows to @thelion2430
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 So are you a Thrivetard now? One sinking ship wasn't enough to be on I see.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon the toroid energy fields are pretty to watch but beyond the stuff about the Federal Reserve, it was a bunch of fluff, not at all as hard hitting or serious as any of the Zeitgeist films. What do you care? Did you miss me? Awww, troll love, right back at you pal ;)
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 You seemed to like it enough to put it on your vimeo account. Just more proof TZM is full of conspiracy nutters.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon actually, we're called truthers, as in people who believe in this thing called the truth, but you wouldn't know anything about that. Calling me crazy is a distraction, an Ad Hominem fallacy, a way for you to, try, to keep the truth from being dealt with. Your attacks are as big a joke to me as u are.
@all others
Just scroll down people, i've shown him up in a real bad way & he's trying to re-dominate the thread with BS so his fail isn't so noticeable at the top of the thread.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 You know why you capitalize logical fallacies? Because you can't spell them so you copy and paste them from a headline.
Also no, 9/11 "truth" has no truth to it. That's why we call you 'Twoofers.' See RKOwens4's channel.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon my poor spelling & rko4 take away nothing from the actual Truth.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 That 9/11 was really done by Muslim cult extremists and that you're a nut like Merola who takes David Icke seriously? I don't think you choosing the name Tinfoil was tongue-in-cheek.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon not that i need to debate you on 9/11, but the reports of real people & fire fighters talking about multiple explosions is all i need to hear to tell me that there were bombs in the building, & considering that a Bush family member was in charge of security at the time, yeah, muslim extremists, yeah, right.... & it's not tongue in cheek forgetting Ickes reptilian stuff, his bloodline/power structure research is on point.
& once again calling me a nut, ad hom-bomb,
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 It's well deserved. 9/11 twoofers are nutty. No-plainers, space beams, nanothermite, jews, illumanati, reptillians, LIHOPs ...etc. All tinfoil and have no valid basis in reality. Unless of course you strawman the "offical" version, lie about scientific facts and quote-mine first responders and reporters.
Also if you think there's reptile people that walk among us it's impossible to ad-hom bomb you because there is no word that accurately describes how insane you are.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon actually, thermite gets nasty when you try to cool the chemical reaction with liquid nitrogen, & as fare as quote mining is concerned, it's not just from 1st responders, /watch?v=xXfJcaA7WSk lets see, that BBC Lies, explosions, & 9/11 commissioners being railroaded to not find out the Truth, Oh My!
The point of the reptilians only gets interesting when you look at the science behind the triune brain & how the R-complex (as in reptilian complex) controls fear reactions.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@machwon & what's a "LIHOPs" ?
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 All of which were debunked and RKOwens4 did a fantastic job exposing 9/11 Twoofer Lies & distortions.
And I hate to be the bearer of bad news: There are no reptile people. Sorry, bro. It's all antisemetic nonsense debunked in the 1930s in a new age reptilian package. Icke is the biggest nut of them all. Bill Cooper comes in a close second with all that JFK was shot by the limo driver nonsense and his ever changing UFO stories.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon i've seen @RKOwens4 disinfo site, do you think he'd do an episode of my podcast? (btw: don't need 9/11 to prove that america commits atrocities at home and abroad)
Haven't broken any news to me, i never met 1, i just said the science about the brain stems r-complex controlling fear was interesting. & i can see how you're itching to call me antisemitic, troll tactic 6?
We're controlled by the Federal Reserve, it creates $ out of thin air, to fund gov't to oppress the people.
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 You never met a reptillian because they don't exist. It's the paranoid delusions of a former soccer player went lunatic that you bought hook, line and sinker.
Fiat money is irrelevant to the conversation. I will ask you this though:
Would you consider yourself an anti-zionist?
machwon 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Re:RKOwens4 - I bet that you wouldn't dare have me or Meurtos on your podcast for a debate about 9/11 twoof.
machwon 1 month ago
@machwon sounds fun, a tag team match? Ken Doc & i vs. .....hell, you, & congress would be more fun, but what ever dipshits you want to bring into this, sure!
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Oh, by the way, my show is a Ridicule Free Zone, the debate ends the moment one of us makes fun of the other, some how, i doubt, you will have the courage?
Karmathejedi1701 1 month ago
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@Karmathejedi1701 nice keep it up---the anti TZM and RBE trolls need to see that the world will not take their stupid shit...their illogical claims.... their insane economics system as truth.
thelion2430 1 month ago
depends what you mean by 'jobs'. paid employment is on the way out. technology IS replacing people. just ask the travel agents who are losing their jobs 'cos people can do it themselves online.
mattzena 2 months ago
Epic Fail, none of this has anything to do with ZM, save for a stretch of the truth into a relationship that doesn't match the facts. This is a mild modification of the Fallacies known as both, Hasty Generalization & Misleading Vividness. google what words you don't understand in relationship to Nizkor or NizkorProject, either way. Anyone with any intellectual honesty, knows i've just refuted your bullshit @machwon
Karmathejedi1701 2 months ago
@Karmathejedi1701 So you guys don't say technological unemployment exists?
You're comment is extremely vauge to be a refutation. How is it a hasty generalization?
Also are you contending I'm some kind of holocaust denier or I'm Hitler? (reductio ad Hitlerum?)
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon i know technological unemployment exists because my wife helped develop the computerized training program that put her out of corporate training.
& No, i refer to nizkor because it's a solid, easy reference guide on detecting fallacy, Which means it's basically the means to end Conspiracy Science & it's inbreed mentality skeptic channels. $=problem, the whole monetary market system must go if this planet's to survive, because we consume like a virus, sustainability is the key.
Karmathejedi1701 2 months ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Answer the question, Tinfoil.
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon he answered & refuted each point, sorry you can't read.
DNorthInvestigation 2 months ago
@DNorthInvestigation Didn't address how it's a hasty generalization, he just went on a tangent about other shit. But nice try defending your butt buddy.
machwon 2 months ago
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@machwon *pats pathetic troll on head*
if you say so... "Denial is an ugly thing to watch."
DNorthInvestigation 2 months ago
You can't debunk ZM coz one can't debunk the truth. ZM is like OWS, it's not a vertical movement. There is no "Boss" u can arrest when it becomes to evident the truth will hit those in the face that are in power. It's a horizontal movement and all it's followers are "bosses" and u can't arrest them all can u ;)? Thats why ZM and OWS will overcome the sick establishment on this planet in the end because it's the only sane option left.
kaxitaksi 2 months ago
@kaxitaksi OWS is dead, much like TZM.
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon No it's not. Thats only on pentagons and other trolls wishlist. OWS and ZM is very much alive and no matter what ur sick twisted lil' mind says to u it will never die.
kaxitaksi 2 months ago
@kaxitaksi Denial is an ugly thing to watch.
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon I can't more than agree to that :))
kaxitaksi 2 months ago
@kaxitaksi How many people showed up to Zeitard Media Festival again? Oh, right. Shit was a non-event. Also "Dr." Peter Joseph Merola Esq. the Jordan Maxwell loving conspiracy nut is your leader.
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon I have no leader and I don't need one. Only puns like u need leaders to follow. ZM and OWS is thriving and getting momentum all over the world and u have to be either stupid or republican to not see that. Now go troll somewhere else :))
kaxitaksi 2 months ago
@kaxitaksi No, Merola is your leader. He admitted to being your leader after TVP told him love was over. I'm not stupid, republican nor trolling. But troll is Zeitgeist cult lingo for people who disagree with TZM. Like how people who disagree with Scientology are "suppressive people."
Also if I was trolling, which I'm not, why can't I troll on my own video comments? Where else should I troll? Your videos?
machwon 2 months ago
@machwon Spoken like someone who has no real idea what the Zeitgeist Movement is all about. So do you like it, you know, all the anger you spew? Does it make you feel like a good person? Are you Righteously Indignant about having to change to keep up with the world? Let's see, you're pro-money, .gov & religion, are the ultimate mind-control games, & you are out to keep people in that box, like a gatekeeper. You must be a very insecure person, to try to control & manipulate, as you do.
Karmathejedi1701 2 months ago
@Karmathejedi1701 Are you going to answer the question? Or are you going to keep acting like a politician and avoiding the question?
How am I using a hasty generalization?
Also; I'm not pro-government or religion, you're just making shit up. Typical Zeitard.
machwon 2 months ago
One of the points you seem to be missing is regardless if new technologies jobs and spawn up in the future, why should people have to work? Or more accurately, why should we have to "earn a living" even if there were more than enough jobs? We are not lowly creatures. We have something no other species on the planet has - technology. Why not make good use of it to it's full potential and make human society the best it can be, and do without the 9 to 5 bullshit "I need money to live" routine.
xh0rsex 3 months ago
Technological unemployment is real and is not going away. You will never ever be able to employee enough of the population to NOT have and unemployment problem. The more efficient you are the less human capital and capital you need. That is the point of being efficient. You debunked nothing. Ray knows this but does not want to get people thinking
JoeTube27 3 months ago
more crap look a Detroit & Michigan in general. Then look at checkout be automated. Then look at the u.d. in general and just think how will we ever get real jobs back lol pathetic.
starknight97 3 months ago
Oh, and I'm sure you are well aware that Google Zeitgeist is not affiliated with The Zeitgeist Movement. But, then again, you weren't really looking for truth to defend your arguments, just allusions.
aurora7207 4 months ago
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@aurora7207 No one said they were. But, then again, you weren't really looking for truth to defend your cult, just throwing poop.
machwon 4 months ago
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@aurora7207 I guess you must be new to TZM or you've been slacking and not watching the TZM propaganda. You better get busy and start catching up... chop chop.
"Part of the Zeitgeist Movement Z-Day 2010 lectures in central London. Includes: A look at the work of Ray Kurzweil"
justintempler 4 months ago
hmm, Ray Kurzweil... Doesn't he sell vitamins now? I bet his veiwpoint isn't clouded at all by his millions of dollars from books and lectures. Sure, lets ask him if Capitalism is a good system, he's objective, right?
aurora7207 4 months ago
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@aurora7207 He's a crank, but for some reason TZM spends an awful lot of effort promoting this crank's cranky crankness.
It's not like Merola ever pushes alternative medicine woo... Oh wait, I forgot he was pimping his brothers alt-med movie "Burzynski, the Movie." I guess the turds don't float far from each other.
machwon 4 months ago
dont take ray kurweil predictions too seriously. in his book "the singularity is near" he made specific predictions about the future of technology including those for 2010. none of themhave come true or close to coming true
redpillreality 4 months ago
@redpillreality Yea, Kurzweil is a total crank, but Zeitards love him.
machwon 4 months ago
I agree, new jobs are emerging all the time from the advancement of knowledge and technology. However these jobs are becoming increasingly more innovative and less mechanical. Research done on motivation these past decades has shown that extrinsic rewards (eg money) actually lower the performance of innovative tasks, they are only effective when it comes to mechanical tasks. This is because it promotes a goal orientation as opposed to a process orientation. TED talk on it (/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y).
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik It's only more money as a creative incentive is a hindrance, they sill will seek a better paying job and better work environment. Hence you need a market.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Actually, it is the existence of an extrinsic incentive outright that lowers performance on innovative/creative tasks. Those who had no reward completed these tasks faster than those with even a small reward. Hence a system which has automated all mechanical tasks (which do require extrinsic incentives) requires no monetary incentive. And it is the mechanical tasks which will be used to produce the goods and services for the population, as it is currently.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik Either way, robots aren't causing unemployment.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon That may be, but it in no way does it invalidate the concept of a resource based economy. It is merely that a different logic applies.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik That's not the point of this video. Sorry if you were too busy sucking Peter Joesph Merola's dick to realize what the video you were watching was about.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Ah, yes it is... Your video is entitled "Ray Kurzweil Debunks Zeitgeist Neo-Luddites on Google Zeitgeist". In other words, to debunk the zeitgeist movement in general, which quite obviously you have failed in doing. Also, the zeitgeist movement has no association with neo-luddism which by the way advocates an opposition to modern technology (fail). I was hoping to have a calm, rational conversation, but it seem your dogmatic and emotional baggage will not allow you to do so.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@machwon Perhaps "Ray Kurzweil Debunks Technological Unemployment on Google Zeitgeist" would have been a more appropriate title don't you think? I still find your reference to neo-luddism hilarious, you obviously have no real understanding of what the Zeitgeist movement advocates.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik Learn what a luddite is, then get back to me.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon haha, I love this definition "In modern usage, "Luddite" is a term describing those opposed to industrialisation, automation, computerisation or new technologies in general". How on earth can you possibly rationally associate that with the concepts put forward by the movement?
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik hence: Neo-Luddite. See: Luddite Fallacy.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon I completely accept the logic. Automated labour means more unemployment which means lower purchasing power. However automated labour also means a higher production of goods and services which decreases the purchasing power requirement. But to associate TZM with neo-luddism as done in your title cannot be justified in accordance with the above definitions. And again TZM also applies another alternative logic which assumes technological unemployment is false, which I mentioned earlier.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik If you're going to use terms like "lower purchasing power" please use the correctly. If anything automation causes deflation because it makes products cheaper, making the dollar stonger. Unemployment due to automation is always temporary and is never permanent. If that was the case there would be 30% unemployment because automation and mechanization has been around for decades and to it's logical ends, 90% if you count when we invented shovels. It's called a fallacy for a reason.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon And I already said I accepted this logic... but my point still stands, TZM has no relationship with the beliefs of neo-luddism, every definition I give you, you just ignore it, and then you refer me to the luddite fallacy, which by the way, other TZM members accept as well (alternative logic remember?). I have the guts to acknowledge my misuse of the term lower purchasing power, have you got the guts to acknowledge your misuse of the term luddite?
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik No, you guys are neo-Luddies. What you prescribe for the problem is irrelavant because you falsly believe the same premise.
"The Luddite fallacy is an opinion in development economics related to the belief that labour-saving technologies (i.e., technologies that increase output-per-worker) increase unemployment by reducing demand for labour."
Note how it doesn't define a prescription.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Wow, lol. You really can't stand being wrong. Firstly not all members accept technological unemployment to be true, and secondly you call us "neo-luddites" in your title which has an entirely different definition to "the luddite fallacy". Neo-luddism is "a personal world view opposing any modern technology[1] that displaces workers and increases unemployment". If you referring to "the luddite fallacy" you should have used that in your title. Don't be a coward, admit you are wrong.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik But you're still opposed to it in the current paradigm, right?
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Opposed to what? Modern technology? There is absolutely no opposition to modern technology within the movement in regards to the current paradigm. I have no idea how you've have gotten this impression.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik So you have no problems with people being being unemployed because of automation and mechanization today?
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Those in the movement who do believe technological unemployment to be real, believe that mechanisation will slowly allow people to work less hours, while still maintaining their purchasing power due to the increase in production. And that eventually this will lead to a society in which very little, or possibly no human mechanical labour is required. Allowing humans to be primarily focused on innovative tasks which have been shown to require no extrinsic incentives. Hence no money.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik So if I displaced 100 workers tomorrow for a machine and the news media picked up on it, I wouldn't get angry letters from Zeitgeisters? "Y U DO THIS?"
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Nah you wouldn't. Although you would still need workers to maintain those systems, and so if you divided this work among the 100 workers, each would work and earn less. However due to the increase in productivity through mechanisation they would not need as much money as there are more goods, and therefore the cost of goods is lower.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik Who the hell are you to tell me how to run my business?
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon This assumes you are an ethical and rational business owner. You wouldn't do this? Why not? It works out for you, it works out for your workers?
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik Actually no it doesn't. Let me guess, you've never read anything about economics or took an econ class have you?
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Please explain to me then Prof. Free-Market Capitalist
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik Because that's not how deflation works. You just don't cut wages and expect prices to fall. Those workers will just quit and find better work.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon This assumes mechanisation is taking place in all sectors, and on a societal scale, and there isn't much mechanical labour to go around, seeing as most innovative fields require qualifications it is hard for many of these people to find jobs.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik That's why there's apprenticeships, on the job training, and employeer paid further education in the real world. Not to mention career education with a various array of payment plans for those who can't afford it. Not to mention grants, scholarships, loans for 4 year institutions. There's no reason not to have some kind of education today other than laziness.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon None of these guarantee a well paid career, especially in current economic circumstances, and many are left in debt working multiple jobs to pay off their university fees or fees from other educational institutions.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik I'm not in debt over my education. Probably because I didn't get a degree in liberal arts, sociology, or a dead language like a lot of the OWS idiots.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Well, you know, a lot of people aren't as well off as you, you can't blame these people all the time, it's not always their fault. So you got a good job out of your education, that's great, but in my eyes I don't think it's fair that these people be punished because the field they happen to be interested in is hard to find a job in or doesn't pay well. Education is a basic right and should be free, not everyone has a solid idea of what they want to do, and may change their minds etc.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@OxiDemonik Didn't say they all were. Have fun playing with conspiracy nuts.
machwon 4 months ago
@machwon Hmm, unfortunately many in TZM are, but not all ;D
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
@machwon Actually I have, but I'm just interested what you have to say.
OxiDemonik 4 months ago
Boy that wasnt biased.
Snarkathon 5 months ago
@Snarkathon Thank you Capt. Obvious. This isn't MSNBC or FOXNews, I don't have a hidden agenda. I make it's pretty clear.