@bunflinger "patients often travel out into the hallway etc and observe what it is going on.".
How do you know? There are many scenarios:
1) The witnesses all stretched the truth a bit to have a convincing story to get attention, and later sell books about the afterlife
2) The person thought she was in the hallway, and had a lucky guess about what was going on (there is only so many things that can happen in a hallway)
There are more explanations, but to jump to supernatural ones is stupid.
@bunflinger The difference between you and me is you are gullible and I am doubtful.
"Doubt is the key to knowledge" - Persian Proverb
A big idea should only been claimed true once going through tough scrutiny, you should be trying to prove it wrong not right. Trying to prove something wrong until you can't do it anymore is called science, trying to prove something right is called pseudoscience. It's clear which side of the fence you are on..
When the brain 100% stops functioning then there is no more consciousness, death is a process it's not like flipping a light switch on and off in the blink of an eye. The experiences being recalled most likely actually occurred while the brain was in the process of dying, because if the brain really lost 100% of it's function, then there would be nothing to bring it back. Being near a finish line isn't crossing it, and something apparently being X, doesn't mean it is actually X.
@theBartone9119 dON'T TALK CRAP. Read the research you lightweight. Veridical observations have been made well after the 15 second stop line. Hundreds of them. We only need ONE to break the rule that mind equals brain, Mr Biased ignorant sceptical stereotype.
@bunflinger "Veridical observations have been made well after the 15 second stop line".
Most of the times the observations are false. Like the woman who had the NDE of the doctors putting tools in her and laughing while they did it, and it never actually happened. Obviously a few are going to be right in a sea of false ones, it's called the law of probability. Mr. Scared of mortality and clinging to whatever idea indicates an afterlife type.
@theBartone9119 Most of the times..... I can tell that you are about twenty two and very naive and you certainly haven't read the literature. Instead of talking crap why don't you go and actually look at the veridical NDE's ? Then come back on here and I will continue to educate you.
@bunflinger I'm actually 24, and you are the one who is naive and doesn't have skeptical inquiry about claims and just believe everything you hear. Also you are reading certain literature based on the hits, not the misses. I could write a book about all the times I've thought about someone and they called, proving I have mind control powers, the problem with that though would be the fact there over 99% of the times I thought of someone they never called. You clearly don't look at the misses.....
@theBartone9119 Actually 24. Really. Well, I was only two years out :-) Look, as a final word on the subject, please go and have a proper look at the research, Mr 24 year old. Then again, you don't need to worry about death for quite a while yet. I've studied NDE's for longer than you have lived and I can promise you that you are wrong. Something...leaves ther body. goodbye best wishes no hard feelings.
@bunflinger nice 'argument from authority' logical fallacy. Can you provide any convincing scientific evidence or have you managed to waste more than 24 years of your life chasing a fantasy?
@GhostBeaver Where do you moles keep coming from. I keep whacking you on the head and you keep coming back for more. Yes...Pim Van Lommel, Michael sabom, Peny sartori, Jeff long to name just a few have conducted scientific studies and found that there is no known explanation for the NDE. Fantasies do not change people's lives. Everyone that has the experience knows what it means. Young militant atheists who have NOT had the experience know better of course.....yeah, makes sense
@GhostBeaver Novella is blagging in this debate. Cranial magnetic stimulation (Persinger god helmet) does NOT produce an OBE. Neither does temporal lobe epilepsy. They merely produce a feeling of disorientation and not the absolute conviction (backed up by veridical observations) that one has actually left the body behind below on the operating table..patients often travel out into the hallway etc and observe what it is going on. Tiny overlap and nothing else.
@bunflinger Lol You really are a joke, an older man believing in fairy tales...We are advanced animals in the great ape family you dumbass. We are biological creatures who puke, shit, piss, intake food, sweat, sleep to regenerate ect. We are only alive because of the biological mechanisms working, when they stop working, there is no more you. You are finished. Period. Maybe you are getting old so you need to cling to the idea of an afterlife, but it's pathetic dude. You are a sad case..
@bunflinger@Bartone (and other readers)...BTW for anyone reading these comments, I apologise, it's not good. I did not start the disrespectfull language however and I intend to remove the comments as soon as Mr Bartone has finished his nonsense.
@bunflinger Death = 0% potential for vital bodily functions working
If these people were brought back then they still had potential for vital bodily functions working, meaning they didn't die. The University of Kentucky did a study showing that REM intrusions can occur while a patient is clinically dead, because while the higher brain is not working or showing anything measurable, the lower brain can still function and cause these intrusions which are strikingly similar NDE accounts.
@theBartone9119 The University of Kentucky did a study showing that REM intrusions can occur while a patient is clinically dead, because while the higher brain is not working or showing anything ....REALLY !!!
Total bullshit. Give me the references. All our brain activity that amounts to consciousness is registered in the neo cortex.
No one can dream when their brain neo cortex isn't working. READ THE LITERATURE !
@bunflinger "Total bullshit. Give me the references"
"The Kentucky researchers believe that NDEs are actually REM intrusions triggered in the brain by traumatic events like cardiac arrest. If this is true, then this means the experiences of some people following near-death are confusion from suddenly and unexpectedly entering a dream-like state.
This explains what has always been a tantalizing aspect of the mystery of NDEs: how people can experience sights and sounds after confirmed brain death"
@bunflinger Google: "Has science explained life after death?"
(You can't post links in you-tube comments)
But the study has been verified, these things can happen even when the higher brain is "dead" and not showing any measurable brain activity. There still isn't evidence that these experiences even happened while they were clinically dead rather then while in the process of dying. There is nothing that indicates NDEs are evidence of an afterlife.
@theBartone9119 But the study has been verified, these things can happen even when the higher brain is "dead" and not showing any measurable brain activity
I dont know where you got the bullshit from but let me tell you it is complete and utter crap.
@bunflinger There are multiple news sites and science sites which mention this study as well, it's been verified by many other universities and science labs. Science > Fantasy and the supernatural
@bunflinger If there was an objective afterlife that existed in reality and not just in the mind of man while neurons are misfiring, then everyone who entered this state that was almost indistinguishable from death should have not only the experience, but the same experience. This is not the case though, the experiences vary like crazy and only a small fraction of people that enter cardiac arrest even have their brains mess up to that point to have an experience. NDEs do not equal an afterlife.
@theBartone9119 iF YOU knew anything about NDE research then you would not make such a silly statement. If there was a materialistic explanation for the NDE such as hypoxia,,, then EVERYONE should have one. I don't know why I am wasting my time trying to show you that you are ill informed. Wait and see for yourself Mr 24 year old.
@bunflinger Nobody said it was there was only one explanation, what you seem to not realize is there are many different types of NDEs (if you didn't know that, then it's you know who knows nothing about NDEs), meaning there are different biological processes triggering each different type. Do we know all of them at this point, no. But you would be using a God of the Gaps type fallacy claiming that gaps in scientific knowledge is evidence of an afterlife.
@bunflinger If there was an objective afterlife then everyone who went into cardiac arrest would experience it. The problem is only 12% - 18% of people in this near death states actually have a near death experience, leading evidence towards the option that it has to do with the brain because if their was an objective afterlife, everyone who enters clinical death should experience NDEs, they don't. Meaning they are not supernatural. Educate yourself.
@theBartone9119 No, YOU educate yourself you buffoon. The reason that only 12-18 % have NDE is not known but probably is connected to loss of memory after the trauma of cardiac arrest.
@bunflinger Death = 0% potential for vital biological functions to work
Nobody we know of who had an NDE met death, because they ended up living to tell the story. This means there was still something biologically going on meaning nothing they experience can be evidence of what happens after death. You lose.
@theBartone9119 i don't think you know the difference between clinical death and biological death. Like how there are hits from the cool project whereby those who are considered "clinically dead" can see things while floating above the ceiling.
losing? how childish. The question is to determine the truth. If you think this is a win/lose situation, you are seriously naive
@bunflinger You never had legs to stand on to begin with in discussing this subject, yet you had the nerve to imply that you somehow have the upper hand mister supernatural fairy tale magical spiritual dimension man? Seriously, only 12% - 18% people in this almost indistinguishable from death report these experiences, only a fraction of that is an out of body experiences, most of them are people seeing Jesus, Vishnu, Aliens and Demons and other cultural things.
@bunflinger Most claims of someone being out of body and verifying things has been false, and not worthy of anything. Of course there will be cases here and there where someone had an experience and it just so happened to coincide with reality. Educate yourself on the laws of probability.
@bunflinger Have you ever thought of someone, then a second later they called? That only seems weird if you don't take into account the countless times you have thought of someone and they didn't call, the laws of probability state it's bound to happen sometime. So since most NDEs are duds, it's only expected that the random one here and there may seem weird, like how it's weird when you think of someone and they call after when it's only inevitable.
@bunflinger Also some of the veridical accounts are laughable, like the woman who knew every tool that was used on her. Well chances are the tools were laid out and visible before she ended up in the state she did, it's not like the doctors took them from a hiding spot when she had cardiac arrest. Her subconscious obviously picked up each individual tool before hand. There is no evidence she saw the tools being used on her, as they actually were being used on her.
@bunflinger Another common example is of a woman in Seattle named only “Maria” who claims to have seen a tennis shoe on a hospital roof. The interesting thing about this story is that there is only one witness....
Saying that a shoe was seen on the roof through spiritual eyes while the body clinically dead inside is an extraordinary claim, and all the evidence we have is 2 people's stories? That's no extraordinary evidence. It's a dud
@theBartone9119 Oh Yes, it was made up. You're right... of course, just like all the thousands of other veridical OBE's/during NDE's ...all made up. There's nothing in it at all which is why the sceptics spent/spend so much time trying to debunk the case/cases. Nothing in it. The pseudo sceptics are a fair minded bunch... of @#######S
@bunflinger "These paranormal encounters (such as Out of Body experiences) are illusions created by the brain itself. Tiny changes in chemistry, minute alterations in electrical activity can create powerful hallucinations that seem absolutely real. These mis-firings of the human brain can occur naturally, especially in the brains of intelligent, sensitive people" - Michael Shermer at the Laurentian University in Sudbury in Michael Persinger's lab that duplicates out of body experiences
"What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." - Morpheus
This is important. What you may think is real in an altered state is just your brain messing with you. Your dreams aren't actually you in another dimension doing a bunch of crazy shit, it's all in your brain. When the brain dies though, it can create vivid realities but it's in your mind.
If NDEs are evidence of an objective afterlife, then why do only 18% of survivors of cardiac arrest claim having a near-death experience? If there was really an afterlife in another dimension that really existed in objective reality where people's consciousness goes while the body is clinically dying/ dead, then all previously clinically dead people should report this. Not only do only 18% report it but the experiences are all culturally different, some see Vishnu, Jesus, Aliens, Demons ect.
@bunflinger Only 0 comes from 0, if there was 0% bodily functions then there would be nothing to bring that person back, the very fact that they were resuscitated is undeniable proof that there was still some biological processes going on or at least the potential hiding in the cells, meaning they were knocking on deaths door not walking in his room. Death = 0% bodily functions and lasts forever
@bunflinger How is that bullshit? If they didn't die, then they didn't die...That's logic, something believers in an afterlife don't use to well. I defined resuscitation for you, it said bringing back someone from apparent death, I even defined apparent for you to prove that resuscitation isn't bringing someone back from death. You might as well learn Chinese or something because you are butchering the English language and it's definitions.
@bunflinger "The dictionary is wrong".....You lose just by saying something as stupid as this lol You are trying to change the English language like a retard...I already explained to you that if the person can be resuscitated then they still had biological functions working in their body or else they couldn't be resuscitated, meaning they didn't die. You are the biggest idiot I've seen on you-tube, trying to say the dictionary is wrong! Any other words you want to change the meaning of Webster?
"Death is the permanent termination of the biological functions" - Wikipedia
"a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life" - Webster
Death is defined as permanent, so if the person lived to tell the story, then they didn't die by definition because it wasn't permanent. Maybe you should learn your definitions before sounding like a dumbass.
@theBartone9119 So you call me a dumbass and you quote Wiki as a source. You idiot. Cardiac arrest equals death... FACT. Ask any cardiologist or medical professional. When the heart stops beating and respiratory effort has ceased the brain stops functioning within 10 -15 seconds. The person is now dead. If no action is taken they stay dead. Wickipedia....dear me that's funny.
@bunflinger Umm Webster defines it the same, actually, every dictionary defines it as permanent so why do you single out Wikipedia when it's defined the same everywhere? Look up the word permanent moron, if they lived to tell a story, then they didn't die...FACT. Also these are near death experiences not after death experiences so nothing they experience can be evidence of what happens after death. Look up the word "near", going near a crossing line isn't crossing it dumbass.
@bunflinger Essentially and exactly are not the same thing, dude you lose. ALL definitions of death define it as permanent (not just wikipedia idiot), so unless you think you want to change the English language then you have no grounds for your argument. Death is permanent, so if someone lived to tell a NDE story, they didn't die. Near death doesn't equal after death.
Although people have heard of the phenomena of cardiac arrest, most do not realise that cardiac arrest is synonymous with death. These two terms essentially mean the same thing.
@theBartone9119 What a idiot you are. The term NDE is an old generalisation which is not used by Parnia now. He uses the term TDE> temporary death experience. The dictionary is wrong because resuscitation science has moved on. You didn't know that did you, thicko ? Cardiac arrest equals death... FACT. Pam Reynolds was dead by every medical criteria for a period during her brain operation.
@bunflinger Here's dictionary(dot)com, are you trying to say all dictionaries are wrong and only you are right?
"death [deth] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death."
ALL definitions of death is defined as permanent, so if the person lived to tell a story, then they didn't die. You are such an idiot, trying to change the english language and the definition of death, hilarious....
@bunflinger Why do you think they are called NEAR death experiences and not AFTER death experiences? Because the person never really died, they almost did by being in a state that was almost indistinguishable from death, but they didn't actually die.
@theBartone9119 They did die you thick idiot. Ward Krenz was frozen to death in a lake for more than a hour. An Ice cold corpse which was revived because of the new discoveries and understandings about death. He was dead but he didn;t stay dead. Comprehend thicko ?
@bunflinger If he didn't stay dead, then he didn't die, because death is defined as permanent. When you have to try and change the English language to win an argument, that's how you know you lost.
@theBartone9119 It's you that's using semantics, dimwit. Like saying your not alive because you're not born. How can you be alive if you haven't been born ? Wel you can be of course.For the last time, CARDIAC ARREST EQUALS DEATH. FACT. Go and read the literature, dimbo.
@bunflinger "Like saying your not alive because you're not born"
I was born though, and life is not defined as something that is born, so no that analogy makes no sense. And cardiac arrest does not equal death, i'll show you why AGAIN:
"cardiac arrest
n
(Medicine) failure of the pumping action of the heart, resulting in loss of consciousness and absence of pulse and breathing: a medical emergency requiring immediate resuscitative treatment"
@bunflinger Apparent death doesn't equal death. If they were resuscitated, then that means they still had body functions working, which means they didn't die because death is defined as total and permanent. Please learn to use English, you are so stupid it makes me laugh.
to revive, especially from apparent death or from unconsciousness."
Apparent = "Seeming real or true, but not necessarily so."
Notice how death (period) is never used? They always use words like "apparent" or "synonymous with", the reason is because if they were brought back, then they couldn't have had 100% total body functions not working, something had to be working if resuscitation occurred.
(Medicine) failure of the pumping action of the heart, resulting in loss of consciousness and absence of pulse and breathing: a medical emergency requiring immediate resuscitative treatment"
Notice how death is not mentioned in the definition? The conditions of cardiac arrest are synonymous with death in many ways, but it's not death because there was still enough biological activity going on for resuscitation to occur. Death is defined as total, and permanent.
@bunflinger You will never know how it feels to cross a finish line if you just go near it, this is why near death experiences cannot be evidence of what happens after death. Impossible.
@theBartone9119 I already told you that the term NDE is a red herring. Why don't you listen ? TDE is the correct term and in cardiac arrest the person is dead, period.They may not stay dead although 90% of them do. It doesn't matter how dead you are, being dead is being dead and if you are not revived you stay dead. That is why the aware study is using the model of cardiac arrest to find out what happens when we die.
@bunflinger If your absurd view was correct then the study couldn't be conducted in the first place. They didn't die because they didn't die.....bullshit ....utter bullshit.
@bunflinger I already provided you with the definition of cardiac arrest, resuscitation, and it said apparent death, I even defined apparent for you. You need to learn the english language a little better, here is a fact:
If the person was resuscitated, then not 100% of their body functions stopped working, you can't go to a grave yard and bring people back, because they are actually dead. If they could be brought back then they never died.
@bunflinger Death is the term used to describe the total and permanent end of life, if someone was brought back that means they almost met death or they were in a state that was not distinguishable from death, basically, close but no cigar!
@theBartone9119 Don't be such a silly ass. You're playing with words. Listen to the cardiologists because believe it or not they know better than you.
@bunflinger Yes and cardiologists know that if resuscitation occurred then there was still enough (no matter how small) body functions working to bring the person back. Would you agree that even some body functions working no matter how small still isn't death? Would you agree that if 100% of the persons bodily functions ceased working then resuscitation would be impossible? Because cardiologists agree with both of those notions.
@theBartone9119 Look, you've had a good try but you are wrong. If they weren't dead then why would doctors try to resuscitate them ? You see, they are dead that is why they try to shock them back to life. If that was not the case, the doctors would examine the patient and say...this patient has pulse, no respiratory effort and has fixed and dilated pupils but he is not dead. Therefore we shall take no action to bring this person back to life. CHECKMATEgOODbye read the literature and learn thicko
@bunflinger "Look, you've had a good try but you are wrong"
No you are think about it. If you have to change the English language to make your argument work, then you have no argument. Death is total and permanent, if the person lived to tell the story then it doesn't meet the requirements of calling it death. You are just a scared child trying to deny your mortality, apparent death is not distinguishable from death, but it's not death. Maybe after you learn the meaning of death, then come back.
1. Death is total and permanent because it means the person has 0% potential for biological life
2. These people telling the stories of their NDEs must have had more than 0% potential for biological life or they couldn't have been brought back, there apparent death (apparent being the key word) was not permanent.
3. NDEs cannot be evidence for an afterlife
If anyone should be using "checkmate" here, it's me. You never had an argument to begin with..
@bunflinger So who is the one playing with words, the one who uses them properly or the one who has to twist them to make an argument work? Ball game ;)
@bunflinger Words are used to describe certain things, if those certain things are not present, then that word should not be used. Common sense dude, you are the one being silly.
@bunflinger If anything NDEs may provide evidence that there is a lot about consciousness we are unaware about, but it doesn't prove that there is an afterlife. 100% of people who experienced these things lived to tell about it, there is no evidence that these experiences can take place while the person is in an irreversibly dead state. Non once so ever.
In fact, carrying on from comment below, I was in a deeper stage of consciousness than many NDE experiencers would be. Therefore my OOBE would be greater, surely. Alas nothing. So am I not allowed to have these after-life experiences? Or is it because I am sceptical ? That can't be it because reality is reality no matter what one thinks. NDE = illusion/delusion. Case closed.
This is the problem. NDE = Near Death Experience. The subjects are not dead. I have had several NDEs four during surgery where on two occasions my heart stopped, the longest time was 30 seconds. I only recall dreams where I saw my friends, still living by the way. The other NDEs I've had were due to diabetic coma. I was at a stage 4 of consciousness (stage 3 is death, 2 and 1 determine how long the patient has been deceased). None of these occasions gave me any hint of the reality occurring
Keep up the good work Alex, your research is excellent you found much of what i found in research. Your date is much more up to date then this doctor is for sure. No disrespect to him but skeptic's are hard to convince, that is why they are called skeptics....
It also seems to me this Doctor has not read all the reports that are out there. he states that himself a few times. Alex has done much better research then this doctor has.
From my research I have heard and read people have given a number that was out of view and stated the number correctly. i saw this on the web somewhere. and how do you explain the hearing of conversations going on at a far distant from the hospital.
Also there are reports of people who have been dead for a day or more, and have this experience, long after the brain has died. Skeptics want hard proof you can not give them until they themselves experience death. Even if you have proof, skeptics will dismiss it. Alex has much better facts then this doctors does.
he is a skeptic that will not change, but some who cant see can see during NDE. Also the OBE is not only in the operating room but elsewhere and they see and hear what is being said. and lastly, some also know who died in their family when they could not know as it occurred at the time they were being worked on in the operating room. I did not hear these points come up..
*sigh* How can one explain something like this..... As best as you can I guess without making anything up. What is the best method to take while researching it? Science.
At 42 minutes he comes to the whole crux of the matter. He doesn't accept that the the veridical observations of the patients occured when they said they occured. That is after the brain is down. He basically proposes that they confabulate them later but there are enough cases in the literature that say he is wrong. I don't think he can say anything else really as an academic neurologist because he would be out on his arse in no time at all. The guy is pleasant enough though. Great debate.
@bunflinger What you just wrote is the best example of verbal masturbation i have ever seen in my life. I read your comment 3 times and still dont have any idea what you just said. Beautiful.
@leverty778... Really, what part of it didn't you understand, sh it for brains ? Instead of poking your nose into things you know jack sh it about why don't you go and read a book or two. Start with Janet and John count to five,
@bunflinger I wasn't trying to be as disrespectful as i sounded. I just think its funny when people over complicate their sentences to sound more educated. I wasn't attacking your side of the debate, either. You should have worded your response the way you worded your response to my comment. But either way, none of my business. Thank you for the book recommendation.
@leverty778 :-) you have a good sense of humour, I like that so lets just forget it, shall we ? I honestly can't see what it is about my comment that amounts to verbal masturbation but....
At 35 minutes Dr Novella states that the life review can be produced by physiological stress to the brain. This presumably is the life flashing before your eyes syndrome etc. This is not the same as the classic life review where you see not only your own life but the results of your actions and how it affected others and also the perspective from # their # point of view, not yours. This guy is a slippery customer but he didn't get back to Tsakiris with the info he promised. I wonder why ?
@CpJ123 No, he isn't. He's a pleasant chap that presents incorrect arguments about the NDE because he is bound by academia to preserve the present paradigm.
That's why I think that stimulation of certain parts of the brain can trigger OBE feelings. Not because it's creating those feelings, but because the stimulating is messing with the brain's ability to regulate consciousness, and thus you have a limited sense of freedom (OBE).
My own view is summed up well by Cyril Burt: “The brain is not an organ that generates consciousness, but rather an instrument evolved to transmit and limit the processes of consciousness and of conscious attention so as to restrict them to those aspects of the material environment which at any moment are crucial for the terrestrial success of the individual”
I don't think it's necessary for the NDE to be a unique type of experience in order to be valid. Even if science was able to replicate the NDE, what would they have proven? We already know NDEs have a physical trigger, as death itself is a physical change, so finding a 'trigger' changes absolutely nothing about the core debate (whether these experiences are real or hallucination). I think the strongest points of the survival case are claims of knowing things that were impossible to know...
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger "patients often travel out into the hallway etc and observe what it is going on.".
How do you know? There are many scenarios:
1) The witnesses all stretched the truth a bit to have a convincing story to get attention, and later sell books about the afterlife
2) The person thought she was in the hallway, and had a lucky guess about what was going on (there is only so many things that can happen in a hallway)
There are more explanations, but to jump to supernatural ones is stupid.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger The difference between you and me is you are gullible and I am doubtful.
"Doubt is the key to knowledge" - Persian Proverb
A big idea should only been claimed true once going through tough scrutiny, you should be trying to prove it wrong not right. Trying to prove something wrong until you can't do it anymore is called science, trying to prove something right is called pseudoscience. It's clear which side of the fence you are on..
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
When the brain 100% stops functioning then there is no more consciousness, death is a process it's not like flipping a light switch on and off in the blink of an eye. The experiences being recalled most likely actually occurred while the brain was in the process of dying, because if the brain really lost 100% of it's function, then there would be nothing to bring it back. Being near a finish line isn't crossing it, and something apparently being X, doesn't mean it is actually X.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 dON'T TALK CRAP. Read the research you lightweight. Veridical observations have been made well after the 15 second stop line. Hundreds of them. We only need ONE to break the rule that mind equals brain, Mr Biased ignorant sceptical stereotype.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "Veridical observations have been made well after the 15 second stop line".
Most of the times the observations are false. Like the woman who had the NDE of the doctors putting tools in her and laughing while they did it, and it never actually happened. Obviously a few are going to be right in a sea of false ones, it's called the law of probability. Mr. Scared of mortality and clinging to whatever idea indicates an afterlife type.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 Most of the times..... I can tell that you are about twenty two and very naive and you certainly haven't read the literature. Instead of talking crap why don't you go and actually look at the veridical NDE's ? Then come back on here and I will continue to educate you.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger I'm actually 24, and you are the one who is naive and doesn't have skeptical inquiry about claims and just believe everything you hear. Also you are reading certain literature based on the hits, not the misses. I could write a book about all the times I've thought about someone and they called, proving I have mind control powers, the problem with that though would be the fact there over 99% of the times I thought of someone they never called. You clearly don't look at the misses.....
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 Actually 24. Really. Well, I was only two years out :-) Look, as a final word on the subject, please go and have a proper look at the research, Mr 24 year old. Then again, you don't need to worry about death for quite a while yet. I've studied NDE's for longer than you have lived and I can promise you that you are wrong. Something...leaves ther body. goodbye best wishes no hard feelings.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "I've studied NDE's for longer than you have lived and I can promise you that you are wrong."
That's not a very convincing argument, anyway I guess we can agree to disagree. Have a good one.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 PS, Michael Shermer is a THE most biased of sceptical commenters on NDE's. Zero credibiltiy, absolute jerk.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger nice 'argument from authority' logical fallacy. Can you provide any convincing scientific evidence or have you managed to waste more than 24 years of your life chasing a fantasy?
GhostBeaver 3 weeks ago
@GhostBeaver Where do you moles keep coming from. I keep whacking you on the head and you keep coming back for more. Yes...Pim Van Lommel, Michael sabom, Peny sartori, Jeff long to name just a few have conducted scientific studies and found that there is no known explanation for the NDE. Fantasies do not change people's lives. Everyone that has the experience knows what it means. Young militant atheists who have NOT had the experience know better of course.....yeah, makes sense
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@GhostBeaver Novella is blagging in this debate. Cranial magnetic stimulation (Persinger god helmet) does NOT produce an OBE. Neither does temporal lobe epilepsy. They merely produce a feeling of disorientation and not the absolute conviction (backed up by veridical observations) that one has actually left the body behind below on the operating table..patients often travel out into the hallway etc and observe what it is going on. Tiny overlap and nothing else.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Lol You really are a joke, an older man believing in fairy tales...We are advanced animals in the great ape family you dumbass. We are biological creatures who puke, shit, piss, intake food, sweat, sleep to regenerate ect. We are only alive because of the biological mechanisms working, when they stop working, there is no more you. You are finished. Period. Maybe you are getting old so you need to cling to the idea of an afterlife, but it's pathetic dude. You are a sad case..
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 I agree you are an advanced animal, Bartone. A jackass.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger @Bartone (and other readers)...BTW for anyone reading these comments, I apologise, it's not good. I did not start the disrespectfull language however and I intend to remove the comments as soon as Mr Bartone has finished his nonsense.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Death = 0% potential for vital bodily functions working
If these people were brought back then they still had potential for vital bodily functions working, meaning they didn't die. The University of Kentucky did a study showing that REM intrusions can occur while a patient is clinically dead, because while the higher brain is not working or showing anything measurable, the lower brain can still function and cause these intrusions which are strikingly similar NDE accounts.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 The University of Kentucky did a study showing that REM intrusions can occur while a patient is clinically dead, because while the higher brain is not working or showing anything ....REALLY !!!
Total bullshit. Give me the references. All our brain activity that amounts to consciousness is registered in the neo cortex.
No one can dream when their brain neo cortex isn't working. READ THE LITERATURE !
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "Total bullshit. Give me the references"
"The Kentucky researchers believe that NDEs are actually REM intrusions triggered in the brain by traumatic events like cardiac arrest. If this is true, then this means the experiences of some people following near-death are confusion from suddenly and unexpectedly entering a dream-like state.
This explains what has always been a tantalizing aspect of the mystery of NDEs: how people can experience sights and sounds after confirmed brain death"
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 When the brain is down no one dreams anything. You are making yourself look a bigger idiot than I thought you were.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Google: "Has science explained life after death?"
(You can't post links in you-tube comments)
But the study has been verified, these things can happen even when the higher brain is "dead" and not showing any measurable brain activity. There still isn't evidence that these experiences even happened while they were clinically dead rather then while in the process of dying. There is nothing that indicates NDEs are evidence of an afterlife.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@theBartone9119 But the study has been verified, these things can happen even when the higher brain is "dead" and not showing any measurable brain activity
I dont know where you got the bullshit from but let me tell you it is complete and utter crap.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger There are multiple news sites and science sites which mention this study as well, it's been verified by many other universities and science labs. Science > Fantasy and the supernatural
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 No other researchers are remotely interested in REM as an explanation for NDE. You are talking out of your backside.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger "No other researchers are remotely interested in REM as an explanation for NDE"
Yet it's been verified in multiple labs...Try again.
" The reason that only 12-18 % have NDE is not known but probably is connected to loss of memory after the trauma of cardiac arrest."
But if there is an afterlife people go to after cardiac arrest, then why don't all people experience it? Exactly
"I agree you are an advanced animal"
You are too, we all evolved from the same common ancestor.
Moron.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger If there was an objective afterlife that existed in reality and not just in the mind of man while neurons are misfiring, then everyone who entered this state that was almost indistinguishable from death should have not only the experience, but the same experience. This is not the case though, the experiences vary like crazy and only a small fraction of people that enter cardiac arrest even have their brains mess up to that point to have an experience. NDEs do not equal an afterlife.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 iF YOU knew anything about NDE research then you would not make such a silly statement. If there was a materialistic explanation for the NDE such as hypoxia,,, then EVERYONE should have one. I don't know why I am wasting my time trying to show you that you are ill informed. Wait and see for yourself Mr 24 year old.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Nobody said it was there was only one explanation, what you seem to not realize is there are many different types of NDEs (if you didn't know that, then it's you know who knows nothing about NDEs), meaning there are different biological processes triggering each different type. Do we know all of them at this point, no. But you would be using a God of the Gaps type fallacy claiming that gaps in scientific knowledge is evidence of an afterlife.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger If there was an objective afterlife then everyone who went into cardiac arrest would experience it. The problem is only 12% - 18% of people in this near death states actually have a near death experience, leading evidence towards the option that it has to do with the brain because if their was an objective afterlife, everyone who enters clinical death should experience NDEs, they don't. Meaning they are not supernatural. Educate yourself.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 No, YOU educate yourself you buffoon. The reason that only 12-18 % have NDE is not known but probably is connected to loss of memory after the trauma of cardiac arrest.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Death = 0% potential for vital biological functions to work
Nobody we know of who had an NDE met death, because they ended up living to tell the story. This means there was still something biologically going on meaning nothing they experience can be evidence of what happens after death. You lose.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 i don't think you know the difference between clinical death and biological death. Like how there are hits from the cool project whereby those who are considered "clinically dead" can see things while floating above the ceiling.
losing? how childish. The question is to determine the truth. If you think this is a win/lose situation, you are seriously naive
DStrike0083 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 If a physiological brain explanation was behind the NDE then EVERBODY should have one. Can't you see that you idiot ?
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@GhostBeaver Anaesthesia awareness is very rare and very very unpleasant. This is more blagging from Novella.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger You never had legs to stand on to begin with in discussing this subject, yet you had the nerve to imply that you somehow have the upper hand mister supernatural fairy tale magical spiritual dimension man? Seriously, only 12% - 18% people in this almost indistinguishable from death report these experiences, only a fraction of that is an out of body experiences, most of them are people seeing Jesus, Vishnu, Aliens and Demons and other cultural things.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Most claims of someone being out of body and verifying things has been false, and not worthy of anything. Of course there will be cases here and there where someone had an experience and it just so happened to coincide with reality. Educate yourself on the laws of probability.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger I'd much rather be skeptical than gullible by the way:
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are so confident while the intelligent are full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russell
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Have you ever thought of someone, then a second later they called? That only seems weird if you don't take into account the countless times you have thought of someone and they didn't call, the laws of probability state it's bound to happen sometime. So since most NDEs are duds, it's only expected that the random one here and there may seem weird, like how it's weird when you think of someone and they call after when it's only inevitable.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Also some of the veridical accounts are laughable, like the woman who knew every tool that was used on her. Well chances are the tools were laid out and visible before she ended up in the state she did, it's not like the doctors took them from a hiding spot when she had cardiac arrest. Her subconscious obviously picked up each individual tool before hand. There is no evidence she saw the tools being used on her, as they actually were being used on her.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Another common example is of a woman in Seattle named only “Maria” who claims to have seen a tennis shoe on a hospital roof. The interesting thing about this story is that there is only one witness....
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
Saying that a shoe was seen on the roof through spiritual eyes while the body clinically dead inside is an extraordinary claim, and all the evidence we have is 2 people's stories? That's no extraordinary evidence. It's a dud
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 Oh Yes, it was made up. You're right... of course, just like all the thousands of other veridical OBE's/during NDE's ...all made up. There's nothing in it at all which is why the sceptics spent/spend so much time trying to debunk the case/cases. Nothing in it. The pseudo sceptics are a fair minded bunch... of @#######S
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 It's a dud...really ?
Check out the latest OBE research you idiot.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger I have checked out recent out of body research, it's been proven to be a trick of the brain and can be recreated in labs, idiot.
Michael Shermer Out of Body Experiment
watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "These paranormal encounters (such as Out of Body experiences) are illusions created by the brain itself. Tiny changes in chemistry, minute alterations in electrical activity can create powerful hallucinations that seem absolutely real. These mis-firings of the human brain can occur naturally, especially in the brains of intelligent, sensitive people" - Michael Shermer at the Laurentian University in Sudbury in Michael Persinger's lab that duplicates out of body experiences
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." - Morpheus
This is important. What you may think is real in an altered state is just your brain messing with you. Your dreams aren't actually you in another dimension doing a bunch of crazy shit, it's all in your brain. When the brain dies though, it can create vivid realities but it's in your mind.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
If NDEs are evidence of an objective afterlife, then why do only 18% of survivors of cardiac arrest claim having a near-death experience? If there was really an afterlife in another dimension that really existed in objective reality where people's consciousness goes while the body is clinically dying/ dead, then all previously clinically dead people should report this. Not only do only 18% report it but the experiences are all culturally different, some see Vishnu, Jesus, Aliens, Demons ect.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger Only 0 comes from 0, if there was 0% bodily functions then there would be nothing to bring that person back, the very fact that they were resuscitated is undeniable proof that there was still some biological processes going on or at least the potential hiding in the cells, meaning they were knocking on deaths door not walking in his room. Death = 0% bodily functions and lasts forever
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger How is that bullshit? If they didn't die, then they didn't die...That's logic, something believers in an afterlife don't use to well. I defined resuscitation for you, it said bringing back someone from apparent death, I even defined apparent for you to prove that resuscitation isn't bringing someone back from death. You might as well learn Chinese or something because you are butchering the English language and it's definitions.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "The dictionary is wrong".....You lose just by saying something as stupid as this lol You are trying to change the English language like a retard...I already explained to you that if the person can be resuscitated then they still had biological functions working in their body or else they couldn't be resuscitated, meaning they didn't die. You are the biggest idiot I've seen on you-tube, trying to say the dictionary is wrong! Any other words you want to change the meaning of Webster?
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Great interview, keep up the good work Alex.
1itosh 4 weeks ago
They are near death experiences not after death experiences, meaning whatever they experienced cannot be proof of an afterlife. Case closed.
theBartone9119 1 month ago
@theBartone9119 Wrong . Cardiac arrest equals death, they are the same. That argument is just about the oldest sceptical get out in the literature.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "Cardiac arrest equals death"
Wrong.
"Death is the permanent termination of the biological functions" - Wikipedia
"a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life" - Webster
Death is defined as permanent, so if the person lived to tell the story, then they didn't die by definition because it wasn't permanent. Maybe you should learn your definitions before sounding like a dumbass.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 So you call me a dumbass and you quote Wiki as a source. You idiot. Cardiac arrest equals death... FACT. Ask any cardiologist or medical professional. When the heart stops beating and respiratory effort has ceased the brain stops functioning within 10 -15 seconds. The person is now dead. If no action is taken they stay dead. Wickipedia....dear me that's funny.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Umm Webster defines it the same, actually, every dictionary defines it as permanent so why do you single out Wikipedia when it's defined the same everywhere? Look up the word permanent moron, if they lived to tell a story, then they didn't die...FACT. Also these are near death experiences not after death experiences so nothing they experience can be evidence of what happens after death. Look up the word "near", going near a crossing line isn't crossing it dumbass.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Essentially and exactly are not the same thing, dude you lose. ALL definitions of death define it as permanent (not just wikipedia idiot), so unless you think you want to change the English language then you have no grounds for your argument. Death is permanent, so if someone lived to tell a NDE story, they didn't die. Near death doesn't equal after death.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@theBartone9119 Heard of Dr Sam Parnia have we ?
Cardiac Arrest & Clinical Death
Although people have heard of the phenomena of cardiac arrest, most do not realise that cardiac arrest is synonymous with death. These two terms essentially mean the same thing.
He should know, thicko.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 What a idiot you are. The term NDE is an old generalisation which is not used by Parnia now. He uses the term TDE> temporary death experience. The dictionary is wrong because resuscitation science has moved on. You didn't know that did you, thicko ? Cardiac arrest equals death... FACT. Pam Reynolds was dead by every medical criteria for a period during her brain operation.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Here's dictionary(dot)com, are you trying to say all dictionaries are wrong and only you are right?
"death [deth] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death."
ALL definitions of death is defined as permanent, so if the person lived to tell a story, then they didn't die. You are such an idiot, trying to change the english language and the definition of death, hilarious....
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Here it is again moron:
Death = the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. (Dictionary, com)
PERMANENT, look up that word then come back to me.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Why do you think they are called NEAR death experiences and not AFTER death experiences? Because the person never really died, they almost did by being in a state that was almost indistinguishable from death, but they didn't actually die.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 They did die you thick idiot. Ward Krenz was frozen to death in a lake for more than a hour. An Ice cold corpse which was revived because of the new discoveries and understandings about death. He was dead but he didn;t stay dead. Comprehend thicko ?
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger If he didn't stay dead, then he didn't die, because death is defined as permanent. When you have to try and change the English language to win an argument, that's how you know you lost.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 It's you that's using semantics, dimwit. Like saying your not alive because you're not born. How can you be alive if you haven't been born ? Wel you can be of course.For the last time, CARDIAC ARREST EQUALS DEATH. FACT. Go and read the literature, dimbo.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger "Like saying your not alive because you're not born"
I was born though, and life is not defined as something that is born, so no that analogy makes no sense. And cardiac arrest does not equal death, i'll show you why AGAIN:
"cardiac arrest
n
(Medicine) failure of the pumping action of the heart, resulting in loss of consciousness and absence of pulse and breathing: a medical emergency requiring immediate resuscitative treatment"
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger It said requires Resuscitation
"Re·sus·ci·tate Show IPA
verb (used with object), -tat·ed, -tat·ing.
to revive, especially from apparent death or from unconsciousness."
Apparent = "Seeming real or true, but not necessarily so."
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Apparent death doesn't equal death. If they were resuscitated, then that means they still had body functions working, which means they didn't die because death is defined as total and permanent. Please learn to use English, you are so stupid it makes me laugh.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Resuscitation =
"Re·sus·ci·tate Show IPA
verb (used with object), -tat·ed, -tat·ing.
to revive, especially from apparent death or from unconsciousness."
Apparent = "Seeming real or true, but not necessarily so."
Notice how death (period) is never used? They always use words like "apparent" or "synonymous with", the reason is because if they were brought back, then they couldn't have had 100% total body functions not working, something had to be working if resuscitation occurred.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "cardiac arrest
n
(Medicine) failure of the pumping action of the heart, resulting in loss of consciousness and absence of pulse and breathing: a medical emergency requiring immediate resuscitative treatment"
Notice how death is not mentioned in the definition? The conditions of cardiac arrest are synonymous with death in many ways, but it's not death because there was still enough biological activity going on for resuscitation to occur. Death is defined as total, and permanent.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger You will never know how it feels to cross a finish line if you just go near it, this is why near death experiences cannot be evidence of what happens after death. Impossible.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 I already told you that the term NDE is a red herring. Why don't you listen ? TDE is the correct term and in cardiac arrest the person is dead, period.They may not stay dead although 90% of them do. It doesn't matter how dead you are, being dead is being dead and if you are not revived you stay dead. That is why the aware study is using the model of cardiac arrest to find out what happens when we die.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger If your absurd view was correct then the study couldn't be conducted in the first place. They didn't die because they didn't die.....bullshit ....utter bullshit.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger I already provided you with the definition of cardiac arrest, resuscitation, and it said apparent death, I even defined apparent for you. You need to learn the english language a little better, here is a fact:
If the person was resuscitated, then not 100% of their body functions stopped working, you can't go to a grave yard and bring people back, because they are actually dead. If they could be brought back then they never died.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 ,,,,you can't go to a grave yard and bring people back
Really ? What do you think a dead ringer means you idiot?
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Death is the term used to describe the total and permanent end of life, if someone was brought back that means they almost met death or they were in a state that was not distinguishable from death, basically, close but no cigar!
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Saying somebody died temporarily is like saying eternity is temporary, it makes no sense.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 Don't be such a silly ass. You're playing with words. Listen to the cardiologists because believe it or not they know better than you.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Yes and cardiologists know that if resuscitation occurred then there was still enough (no matter how small) body functions working to bring the person back. Would you agree that even some body functions working no matter how small still isn't death? Would you agree that if 100% of the persons bodily functions ceased working then resuscitation would be impossible? Because cardiologists agree with both of those notions.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Your logic:
Using the English language properly is playing with words...
I guess with your logic someone using intelligence is just playing with your head lol
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@theBartone9119 Look, you've had a good try but you are wrong. If they weren't dead then why would doctors try to resuscitate them ? You see, they are dead that is why they try to shock them back to life. If that was not the case, the doctors would examine the patient and say...this patient has pulse, no respiratory effort and has fixed and dilated pupils but he is not dead. Therefore we shall take no action to bring this person back to life. CHECKMATEgOODbye read the literature and learn thicko
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bunflinger.If that was not the case, the doctors would examine the patient and say...this patient has pulse,... NO PULSE
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger "Look, you've had a good try but you are wrong"
No you are think about it. If you have to change the English language to make your argument work, then you have no argument. Death is total and permanent, if the person lived to tell the story then it doesn't meet the requirements of calling it death. You are just a scared child trying to deny your mortality, apparent death is not distinguishable from death, but it's not death. Maybe after you learn the meaning of death, then come back.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger
1. Death is total and permanent because it means the person has 0% potential for biological life
2. These people telling the stories of their NDEs must have had more than 0% potential for biological life or they couldn't have been brought back, there apparent death (apparent being the key word) was not permanent.
3. NDEs cannot be evidence for an afterlife
If anyone should be using "checkmate" here, it's me. You never had an argument to begin with..
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger So who is the one playing with words, the one who uses them properly or the one who has to twist them to make an argument work? Ball game ;)
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger Words are used to describe certain things, if those certain things are not present, then that word should not be used. Common sense dude, you are the one being silly.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
@bunflinger If anything NDEs may provide evidence that there is a lot about consciousness we are unaware about, but it doesn't prove that there is an afterlife. 100% of people who experienced these things lived to tell about it, there is no evidence that these experiences can take place while the person is in an irreversibly dead state. Non once so ever.
theBartone9119 3 weeks ago
In fact, carrying on from comment below, I was in a deeper stage of consciousness than many NDE experiencers would be. Therefore my OOBE would be greater, surely. Alas nothing. So am I not allowed to have these after-life experiences? Or is it because I am sceptical ? That can't be it because reality is reality no matter what one thinks. NDE = illusion/delusion. Case closed.
mik99D 1 month ago
This is the problem. NDE = Near Death Experience. The subjects are not dead. I have had several NDEs four during surgery where on two occasions my heart stopped, the longest time was 30 seconds. I only recall dreams where I saw my friends, still living by the way. The other NDEs I've had were due to diabetic coma. I was at a stage 4 of consciousness (stage 3 is death, 2 and 1 determine how long the patient has been deceased). None of these occasions gave me any hint of the reality occurring
mik99D 1 month ago
@mik99D Wrong. Cardiac arrest equals death.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
Sorry. Dr. Novella arguments are FAR more compelling.
newcoyote 1 month ago
@newcoyote Really ? Why ? They don't make any sense and he doesn't deal with the large parts of the NDE. All stuff and nonsense.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
Steven Novella is my god
MrLinuxNewbie 1 month ago
Don't stop this topic is can change the world view if we finally prove this as fact, we don't die!!!
Maforen108 1 month ago
Keep up the good work Alex, your research is excellent you found much of what i found in research. Your date is much more up to date then this doctor is for sure. No disrespect to him but skeptic's are hard to convince, that is why they are called skeptics....
Maforen108 1 month ago
You are right about DR. P Van Lamel, if i am spelling his name right? but his research is excellent!
Maforen108 1 month ago
It also seems to me this Doctor has not read all the reports that are out there. he states that himself a few times. Alex has done much better research then this doctor has.
Maforen108 1 month ago
From my research I have heard and read people have given a number that was out of view and stated the number correctly. i saw this on the web somewhere. and how do you explain the hearing of conversations going on at a far distant from the hospital.
Maforen108 1 month ago
Also there are reports of people who have been dead for a day or more, and have this experience, long after the brain has died. Skeptics want hard proof you can not give them until they themselves experience death. Even if you have proof, skeptics will dismiss it. Alex has much better facts then this doctors does.
Maforen108 1 month ago
he is a skeptic that will not change, but some who cant see can see during NDE. Also the OBE is not only in the operating room but elsewhere and they see and hear what is being said. and lastly, some also know who died in their family when they could not know as it occurred at the time they were being worked on in the operating room. I did not hear these points come up..
Maforen108 1 month ago
*sigh* How can one explain something like this..... As best as you can I guess without making anything up. What is the best method to take while researching it? Science.
Adrianrainman 2 months ago
You fundies only think NDE's are satanic because "faggots" have seen Heaven.
IAmLegion9000 4 months ago
At 42 minutes he comes to the whole crux of the matter. He doesn't accept that the the veridical observations of the patients occured when they said they occured. That is after the brain is down. He basically proposes that they confabulate them later but there are enough cases in the literature that say he is wrong. I don't think he can say anything else really as an academic neurologist because he would be out on his arse in no time at all. The guy is pleasant enough though. Great debate.
bunflinger 4 months ago
@bunflinger What you just wrote is the best example of verbal masturbation i have ever seen in my life. I read your comment 3 times and still dont have any idea what you just said. Beautiful.
leverty778 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@leverty778... Really, what part of it didn't you understand, sh it for brains ? Instead of poking your nose into things you know jack sh it about why don't you go and read a book or two. Start with Janet and John count to five,
bunflinger 2 months ago
@bunflinger I wasn't trying to be as disrespectful as i sounded. I just think its funny when people over complicate their sentences to sound more educated. I wasn't attacking your side of the debate, either. You should have worded your response the way you worded your response to my comment. But either way, none of my business. Thank you for the book recommendation.
leverty778 1 month ago
@leverty778 :-) you have a good sense of humour, I like that so lets just forget it, shall we ? I honestly can't see what it is about my comment that amounts to verbal masturbation but....
Don't bother with the book BTW. Peace.
bunflinger 1 month ago
At 35 minutes Dr Novella states that the life review can be produced by physiological stress to the brain. This presumably is the life flashing before your eyes syndrome etc. This is not the same as the classic life review where you see not only your own life but the results of your actions and how it affected others and also the perspective from # their # point of view, not yours. This guy is a slippery customer but he didn't get back to Tsakiris with the info he promised. I wonder why ?
bunflinger 4 months ago
Novellas is the man!
CpJ123 4 months ago 18
@CpJ123 no he's not, he's a biased skeptic who clutches at straws to try and explain NDE's.
Tombstone416 2 months ago
@CpJ123 No, he isn't. He's a pleasant chap that presents incorrect arguments about the NDE because he is bound by academia to preserve the present paradigm.
bunflinger 3 weeks ago
That's why I think that stimulation of certain parts of the brain can trigger OBE feelings. Not because it's creating those feelings, but because the stimulating is messing with the brain's ability to regulate consciousness, and thus you have a limited sense of freedom (OBE).
AnduinX 6 months ago
My own view is summed up well by Cyril Burt: “The brain is not an organ that generates consciousness, but rather an instrument evolved to transmit and limit the processes of consciousness and of conscious attention so as to restrict them to those aspects of the material environment which at any moment are crucial for the terrestrial success of the individual”
AnduinX 6 months ago
I don't think it's necessary for the NDE to be a unique type of experience in order to be valid. Even if science was able to replicate the NDE, what would they have proven? We already know NDEs have a physical trigger, as death itself is a physical change, so finding a 'trigger' changes absolutely nothing about the core debate (whether these experiences are real or hallucination). I think the strongest points of the survival case are claims of knowing things that were impossible to know...
AnduinX 6 months ago