God made sure the true temple of His eternal dwelling was under construction prior to AD 70 and the final destruction of the temple made with hands. "you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5 NASB)
Another clear example of a first century fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse: ...when YOU (Peter, James, John and Andrew- first century generation) SEE all these things, recognize that HE (the Lord) IS NEAR, RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (Matthew 24:33 NASB) [James, who must have seen the signs of the Lord's soon return, writing to a first century audience]...the COMING of THE LORD IS NEAR...behold, the Judge IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:8, 9 NASB)
Evidence that the Olivet Discourse was being fulfilled in the first century: "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:22 NKJV; also Mk 13:20). "But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;" (1 Corinthians 7:29 NASB)
First century Rome was the forth and final kingdom. God used that empire to destroy His harlot wife OC Israel. He then entered into covenant with spiritual Israel made up of the faithful, last days remnant, and the Gentiles.
We are far apart in our interpretations of Scripture. I will leave you with an invitation to view one of the leading Preterist teachers/debaters. His name is Don K Preston and you'll find him here on YouTube. Thanks for the dicussion, it was very enjoyable. God bless you sir.
Daniel is clear in that the Greek dynasties would be followed by the rule of iron which can easily be seen as the Romans and after them there would be those in the same region who rule with alliances "clay" mixed with "iron".
Since the Roman empire was at its greatest in the 3rd centrury AD the rule of 'iron' was in full sway well after 70AD and thus the Scripture tells us much needs to happen before the Antichrist and Jesus' return to govern the nations.
@gracetruthguy I don't agree at all that the OC survived AD 70. Jesus came to tear down the dividing wall per Eph2. Heb 10:9 also describes the setting aside of the OC to establish the NC. Jews and Gentiles have only one way to God, through the Messiah Jesus. That's the gospel.
Brother, I need to apologize for using the word "absurd" in a recent comment, and not just once but three times. I try my best to divorce my emotions from my defense of what I believe is truth, but my passion sometimes makes that difficult. Please forgive me.
In Lk 21:8 Jesus told Peter, James, John and Andrew (Mk 13:3) not to follow anyone who says "the time is near." Then, 25-35 years later, Peter, James and John ALL proclaim "the time is near!" (1 Pet 4:7; James 5:7-9; Rev 1:3; 22:6,10). They ALL saw the signs of His return, or they were the false prophets Jesus warned about!
Really, they saw the sacrifices cease in the temple and the abomination set up?
Really?
Please name this prince (as he is called in Daniel) and please note Daniel prophesied a long dynasty for the Roman 'earth': the rule of iron long before the iron and clay period: the iron rule was at its zenith in the 2nd CENTURY AD!
Is it impossilbe for them to say near in no greater emphasis than Jesus "And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ " Matthew 10:7
Heb 8:13 says the OC was ready to disappear. AD 70 is unmistakingly when it was removed. If one misses that they're not even making a serious attemt to pursue truth.
Did u not know that Jews, unaware of the loss of the temple after AD70 travelled from the further outreaches of their diaspora to worhip there?
The OC is still there for all born Jews who are faithful to their God without knowing about Jesus. Right until the veil is removed as per Romans 11.
And this is why the temple will be rebuilt. Adn it is a temple to come at Jerusalem where the Antichrist will sit and blaspheme as Paul said (and Jesus and Daniel)
Humor me for a moment. You seem to believe Mt 24 and Mk 13 are accounts of the Olivet Discourse but Lk 21 is not? If so, that's absurd! You agree that Lk 21:20 is AD 70 but you think Lk 21:24 is yet future? Again, absurd and inconsistent. You think Rev 3:10 is first century but 3:11 is yet future, absurd! Set aside your bias, presupposition and pride and seriously consider first century fufillment.
I watched a few of your videos. The main problem is that you've ignored the time frame and audience relevance which leads one to wild speculations. From Moses to John the main focus of Scripture is the ages of the Old and New Covenants.
The futurist continues to miss the fact that the setting of the entire NT was the last days of the Old Covenant age (Mt 24:3). The arrival of Messiah signaled the soon transition and transformation to the eternal New Covenant age. AD 70 was the event that accomplished the removal of the OC system (Heb 8:13).
Basing a view on a question posed in Mt 24:3 which was refuted or answered to show it was not 'just like that' [just as the disciples were answered again in Acts 1:7 "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."] is a poor foundation for your dogma.
As for Heb. 8:13 there is no link to AD70 whatsoever; just that it was going to happen. They knew a new age was coming from various OT prophecies too!
In your opinion, how would John's words to the Philadelphia church have been understood and applied? How would they have understood the phrase: "that hour which is about to come upon the whole world"?
Just as there were many occasions when Israel was warned about world disasters to come and that they would be a part of those if they did not repent, here another is mentioned to the Philadelphian church, but that they would be spared from it.
The world famine was spared Israel and family by Joseph.
The world was not spared the Baylonian 'plague' and nor was Israel.
And so on.
I am coming quickly is separate and also a personal warning,
Paul calls him the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition" in 2 Thess.2
Judas Iscariot was also called the son of perdition (John 17:12)
John described Judas as an antichrist whilst talking about THE Antichrist that was to come (1 John 2:18-19)
So THE son of perdition and THE Antichrist and THE man of sin/lawlessness are interchangeable terms for the THE same person: also THE Beast, THE prince et al
Many prophecies about Christ: many about Antichrist
@gracetruthguy I didn't say the Thessalonians thought "the coming was fulfilled." However, because Paul adressed them specifically, and those of their generation generally, they were certain they would witness the events personally (at least those who were alive in the next few years).
Paul addressed the Thessalonians that there would be NO COMING WHATSOEVER UNTIL certain specifics would happen. That same ones that Jesus and Daniel mentioned. The ones that would spark off the 42 months.
Luke 21's are separate events! Separate signs are given!
So they were certain they woukd NOT witness it UNTIL those things happened.
No mentions of it being in that generation whatsoever.
I answered by pointing to another letter written to the Thessalonians - using your method - to show that for them none of the events in Jerusalem persuaded them the coming was fulfilled .
And, since Paul's letters were asked to be circulated among the churches it is false to suggest they were fixed for 1 audience only.
Thereby your limited interpretation of the lettrer to Philadelphia fails in my reading.
The NT writers wrote their letters to specific churches rather than simply addressing them to: "To whom it may concern." The reason is obvious: The content of their messages were relevant to their audiences. If your interpretation does not include this principle, you've missed the context.
This is from an interesting article: The Roman occupation affected the High Priest, who served in the Temple and represented the Jewish people on their holiest of days. Jews had always selected their High Priest, but under Roman rule the Romans decided who would hold the position. As a result, it was often people who conspired with Rome that were made High Priest- giving those trusted least by the Jewish people the highest position in the community.
NT eschatology is about the last days of the Mosaic, Old Covenant age, and the transformation to the Messianic, New Covenant age. Those under the OC could not live in God's Presence. Those under the NC are the dwelling place of God on the earth (2 Cor 6:16-18; Rev 21:1-4). The first century, OC Jerusalem was cast out in AD 70 (Gal 4:21-31), the NC New Jerusalem has arrived.
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (2 Thessalonians 2:3 ESV) This may not be the Roman beast. This may very well have been the High Priest. He was the leader of a corrupt, lawless system, and people. These Messiah rejecting Old Covenant people were themselves an abomination to God. The text does not call him the Antichrist as you've asserted.
I definitely would expect God to fulfill His promises made through an inspired Apostle. Those who were persecuting me would be judged, in flaming fire. That's exactly what I would have seen in AD 70.
First, you didn't even try to answer my question. Second, if I was in Paul's audience I would apply his words to myself: since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 ESV)
If you were a member at Philadelphia in John's day how would you have understood: 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. (Revelation 3:10, 11 NASB)
If you were a member of Thessalonica and you heard Paul say that unless you saw a guy sitting in the temple of God blaspheming and claiming to be God, Jesus and the rapture was not going to happen (yet), then since you were on the other side of the Mediterranean from the temple and no one has done that, you would know it was still not yet. (2 Thess.2)
So anyone claiming Jesus' return and all those prophecies are fulfilled are deceived if they cannot say who did that.
Brother, have you ever attempted to read the NT from the perspective of the original audiences? If one can set presuppositions aside and consider their view of inspired words directed to them in their situations and circumstances, the NT takes on new meaning. Remember, they weren't writing epistles to the churches of New York or Los Angeles, but to those of the first century.
The "beast coming up out of the earth (Land- or Israel)" has been understood as either religious or political leaders within the land of Israel. Some have thought the second beast was the Jewish religious system itself. The Jewish leaders committed blasphemy within the temple and joined forces with Rome against the church. Others have thought that he was a governor of Judea under Nero, either Albinus or Gessius Florus.
The time of Satan's authority to overcome the saints was 42 months. Nero's persecution lasted from approx. late AD 64- mid AD 68, 42 months. He has been condidered the "beast rising up out of the sea (Gentiles)."
There have been attempts to identify the beasts of Revelation. The unbelieving Jews proclaimed, "We have no king but Caesar!" (John 19:15) thus giving him their allegiance and obedience. This, of course, was blasphemy. So, the Roman Caesar during Israels latter days can be considered 'the beast' which includes Nero. He was the Devil's agent in persecuting the church.
Though the details of the prophecies fulfilled almost 2000 years ago may not all be known to us now I believe they were, in fact, fulfilled. It is not necessary to identify every detail as you insist, though we may eventually, in order to take the Words of God concerning the first century timing of the events at face value.
"The only NEAR is in that ERA in which we exist"? No, John, the inspired Apostle, informed living breathing people in the first century that the events were near for THEM. He wasn't writing in a vacuum. Daniel was told his prophecies were not for his day, they were sealed, so John's were for his day since they were not sealed. This is really quite simple, how are you missing it?
When did he sit as God in the temple of God having ceased the daily sacrifice and erected the abomination?
(42 months before AD70 as per your own words)
Where are the records of that?
According to Josephus (I think) the sacrifices carried on well into the siege time within your 42 months period, so they did not cease when you say they did.
The idea that Luke 21:20 is about AD 70 but Mt 24:15 & Mk 13:14 are yet future is obviously in error. They are all versions of the same message delivered by Jesus- The Olivet Discourse! Why do you insist on lifting one verse out of Luke's version and assign a first century fulfillment? That's dishonest to say the least.
When did he sit as God in the temple of God having ceased the daily sacrifice and erected the abomination?
(42 months before AD70 as per your own words)
Where are the records of that?
According to Josephus (I think) the sacrifices carried on well into the siege time within your 42 months period, so they did not cease when you say they did.
May this quote of yours serve to convict you of the truth in Jesus' name:
"The time of the Gentiles WAS the 42 months leading up to AD 70"
Since,
"from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days" Daniel 12:11
That is the starting point of the 42 months.
Again I ask,
Who was the antichrist that removed the sacrifice et al before the time leading up to AD70?
And I also know the first century generation was living in the time of the end prophesied by Daniel. Jesus unsealed Daniel (Mt 24:15). The Revelation was not sealed (Rev 22:10) as Daniel was because there would be no delay for the fulfillment of John's prophecies. They were NEAR!
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. (Luke 21:20 ESV) I am confident of at least two things: Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and she was made desolate just as the prophets said.
Again, it's about covenants not the planet. Allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and consider the time frame references and how they applied to the original audiences and you will avoid the false premise of futurism.
Daniel makes clear that there would be 1,290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away. 42 months in Revelation and also 3½ years, when did that happen?
And the abomination set up in its place?
Who was the Antichrist that did that?
Where are the reports?
The historical records?
When did the Gentiles time cease?
Check out this vid and learn (if u can)
"The Year of the Lord's Return - An understanding - Jacques More"
@gracetruthguy When you read Isaiah 51:16 you see that Isaiah "spitualizes" too. Yes, the heaven and earth that God established at Sinai passed away with fire as Peter predicted. The seed that remains is Abrahams seed, which is Christ, as described in Gal. 3. The remnant was saved leading up to AD 70. They are called the first- fruits.
John told his audience "we know it is the last hour." Are you saying that the New Covenant age believers have always been living in the last hour? The evidence is clear: John and his first century audience were about to witness the end of the Jewish age. No need to make excuses for the imminent language, it took place just as they said it would. Again, God keeps His promises!
Hi promisesrkept, John also wrote that Peter would die an old man (John 21:18-19) Yes, all believers since Pentecost have been living in the last hour and the last days. God promised this: the sun will give light by day the moon and the stars will give light by night So the seed of Israel shall also remain as a nation Jeremiah 31:35-36 When - i.e. AFTER - those are burnt up (as per 2 Peter 3:7) will the Jewish age be over. As Jesus said there is a time of the Gentiles 1st
@gracetruthguy The context is the New Covenant in Jer. 31. The OC heaven & earth passed away fully in AD 70. The New Covenant heavens & earth, the Messianic Kingdom, remains forever. True Israel is made up of all who are in Christ. God has kept His promise to His people- in Christ!
So you spiritualise earth and heaven so it does not mean the planet we all inhabit nor the star in the sky that gives our light and heat, but something unfathomable?
Yes, true Israel is made up of all who are in Christ, but these are never termed as "the seed of Israel":
Gentiles are grafted in as wild olive barnches into the natural
Jer 31context is God saving the remnant of Jews and putting his law in their hearts.
@gracetruthguy You are twisting and distorting the time frame passages in an attempt to support your "end of the planet" fantasy. The Old Covenant came to an end with fire in AD 70. That is the context you refuse to see.
'But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.'
The end in focus in the Scripture is the end of the Jewish age. It's about covenants not the planet. If your premise is off, and it is, your findings will be off, and they are. God bless you brother. Try to enjoy this New Covenant age in which we live.
If God is true to His word - and He is - then Israel: the Jews will be there whilst the sun and moon remain:
"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea and its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): ''If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.' "
@gracetruthguy Not one Scripture that expresses the soon coming of the Lord in their generation as promised? Let me list a few: Paul- 1 Cor 10:11; Rom 13:11,12; Peter- 1 Pet. 4:5,7; James- James 5:7-9; John- 1 Jn 2:18; Rev. 1:1-3; 3:10,11; 22:6,10,12.
Not one of these passages make mention of "in their generation".
Sure, there is "the last hour", "the ends of the ages", "the day is at hand", et al
But all these refer to the time after the central prophetic point being fulfilled - the lamb of God taking away the sin of the world - Before that was the beginning, the foundation and the 1st hour (if you will)
Now is the next part in God's eyes and eternal purposes.
But actual return and burn up of earth not so yet!
The onus is on you to prove that the Antichrist came and that no one wrote about him to identify him. Expecially since Daniel, Jesus, Paul, John all mentinoned the importance of recognising him and what he would do:
Express extreme blesphemy, rise up from one of the Greek empire factions, overturn 3 kingdoms and rule over 10, arouse the kingdoms of the East against him, sit in the temple, and wear out the saints: not one of these has happened since mentioned.
You continue to ignore the time frame for the events to take place. Since all NT writers said the events were soon, near, and about to be, you are not accepting their words. There is clearly a first century time frame that you are ignoring completely.
"we ask you, NOT to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." 2 Thess.2:1-2
Or Peter in reply to "Where is the promise of His coming?" in 2 Peter 3:1-9
Peter himself was told he was going to die an old man (John 21:18). Not exactly a sign of a soon, near or at hand coming!
@gracetruthguy According to the inspired writers he was around in their day. Even if we can't identify him, that doesn't change the first century time frame.
Not sure if you heard about this guys so I'm gonna tell it anyway. I might be wrong so I will not claim that this is correct but just my guess. This year, couple weeks ago was a red moon over Jerusalem. Some say that a 7 year period of blood moons started and will end in 2018. Now, those who say it did not link it to the Bible at all. If that is true, it would make sense that Jesus is coming very soon. There was a 70 year difference between His birth and the destruction of the temple.
The third and final temple was being built in the first century. Compare 2 Cor. 6:16-18 and Ez. 37:26-28 with Rev. 21:3. The NT writers saw the people of God as the fulfillment of God's dwelling place on the earth. Peter said, "you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house (temple), a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 2:5 NKJV). Jesus is the cornerstone of this temple!
I have shown conclusively that Luke 21:20 is parallel with Mt 24:15 & Mk 13:14. This means that the fulfillment of Daniel and Paul was in the AD 70 destruction of the city and the temple by the Romans, Daniels fourth kingdom. From that time on is the never ending kingdom of God which is the Messianic, New Covenant, spiritual kingdom.
Your assumption of race rather than generation is based on your faulty presupposition, in my opinion. Scripture shows that the first century generation was the very one Moses predicted and the NT writers identified.
That is your reading of course which is not identifiable in my reading.
You still have to demonstrate a reply to the clear words of Paul, Jesus and Daniel about the abomination of desolation recognised by Paul with the son of perdition sitting in the temple and blaspheming. That has never happened since he said it and is in parallel to what Jesus and Daniel said.
it has never happened in that temple building, but will in the one that has yet to be built on the site.
In the OT we don't see all of the prophets of a particular generation saying the coming of the Lord is soon, near, and about to be as in the NT. There were times of judgement in the OT that were said to be near and they were.
Here is the best way I've found to understand the context of which generation is in view in the NT: Deut 31:29; Deut 32:5; Deut 32:20; Mt 17:17; Mt 23:36; Mt 24:34; Acts 2:40; Phil 2:15. Read these carefully and they'll lead you to the first century AD.
Hebrews 13:8 simply means Jesus is eternal, not that He must remain in a flesh and bone body. He is God and therefore Omnipresent. He set aside His attributes for a time to fulfill prophecies in the flesh. Since His ascension He is Spirit.
So, it was the same Jesus the disciples saw go into heaven Who came back within their generation just as Jesus said. His coming was near, soon and it was about to be, just as the inspired writers said throughout the NT. Do you believe the Scriptures?
How did God accomplish this? so the king of Assyria will lead away the captives of Egypt and the exiles of Cush, young and old, naked and barefoot with buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. (Isaiah 20:4 NASB) He did so through the king of Assyria. Jesus came in judgement through the Roman armies in AD 70.
When Jesus returned it was as His Father had come in the past. The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isaiah 19:1 NASB)
Yes, Jesus is fully God as He always was, but He is fully Man now and He always will be.
And a fully Man he will return in His resurrected bodily state as we all will who have fallen asleep. For He returns with "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints" Jude 14
And we will eat and drink together in the new kingdom
The Father never ate with men, Jesus did with Abraham yes, and will again in Jerusalem
Yes I do. The same Jesus existed before His incarnation as Spirit. After His ascension He reverted back to His pre-incarnation form. So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB)
“Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. (1 Peter 4:7 NASB) Another inspired writer saying the end is near. Were they false prophets, or was the end of the age really near? I believe they were true prophets.
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. (1 John 2:18 NASB) Why would this inspired apostle inform his audience that they were living in the last hour?
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (James 5:7-9 NASB)
"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (Matthew 24:32, 33 NASB)
then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. (Matthew 24:16, 17 NASB) "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; (Luke 21:21 NASB) Of course they are similar, they were spoken at the same time in the same context!
The fact that the writer of Hebrews declared that the Old Covenant was becoming obsolete and was ready to vanish away was a time statement (Heb 8:13). All of the imminent language points to the end of the age. This is clear when one considers Jesus' words in Mt 24:32-34 & James' words in James 5:7-9. Jesus said their generation would not pass away until all is fulfilled, and James said His coming was near and the Judge was standing at the door.
Jacques, So do you think the verses immediately following Mt 24:15 & Lk 21:20 are parallel since they are so similar? And, is Matthew & Mark's account the Olivet Discourse or is Luke's?
Again, the generation from AD30-AD70 was the terminal generation of the Old Covenant age. Therefore, eschatology can only refer to that age since the New Covenant age never ends. Those who are in Christ are true Israel and members of the spiritual kingdom of God.
I have heard others say that Matthew and Mark refer to something different from Luke. That is a false premise since all are accounts of the Olivet Discourse and Mt 24:15; Mk 13:14; Lk 21:20 are parallel passages. The Roman armies were the fulfillment.
The time period from AD30-AD70 was the terminal generation of the Old Covenant age. The New Covenant age has no end therefore eschatology applies to the Old not the New, so prophecy was focused on the termination of the Old.
Hi promisesrkept, The idea that eschatology is over is false "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved" Romans 11:25-26 Is all Israel saved? Not yet. Has the fullness of the Gentiles come? Not yet. "I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced" Zechariah 12::10-11 Has this happened? No
Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse addresses your objections. Compare Lk 21:20-24 and Mt 24:15-28. The Roman armies caused the desolation of Old Covenant Jerusalem.
Eschatology only applies to the Old Covenant age which ended in AD 70. The New Covenant age came in full at the passing away of the previous age (Heb 8:13; 10:9). This age has no end!
Paul is explicit that the Antichrist would sit as God in the temple of God and utter blasphemies:
2 Thess. 2:3-4 Jesus said there would be tribulation AFTER the abomination is set up.
No abomination was set up in AD70 and that temple's destruction was the END of that period of trial for Israel. Daniel makes clear the clock starts to tick FROM the removal of the daily sacrifice. That has not yet happened
The term 'this generation' refers to Old Covenant age. Moses predicted the end (Deut 31:29; 32:5). Jesus identified His contemporaries as that wicked generation (Mt 17:17). Peter (Acts 2:40), and Paul (Phil 2:15), confirm this fact.
In Mt17:17 for example it is the disciples who could not cast out the demon - the unbelieving group Jesus was referring to. I translate in paraphrase form "O faithless and perverse group of guys, how long
shall I be with you?"
Either meaning "the generation of time" or " the group" are possible for Acts 2 and Phil 2:15 and Deut 32:5
I've made a video response to the same video you attached this video to, from ProfMTH's site. I hope you take a look at it to see a different, and exegetical account of the Olivet Discourse...
The point in the video where you state there has been no standing abomination in the temple, I think there's an oversight as to what happened when Rome destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. Historical records indicate that this has occurred already.
When you read the eye witness account of the historian Josephus of the 70AD event you find that the Jews set fire to the temple buildings BEFORE the Romans set foot in it.
The abomination is told us as something that will be seen by all after the daily sacrifice is made to cease in the temple. That has never happened since Jesus and Paul's meniton of this.
e.g. 2 Thessalonians.2:4 "he sits as God in the temple of God"
@gracetruthguy - I beg to differ. Josephus records the heinous, and irreverent manner in which Titus' armies accomplished this, not only the destruction of the temple, but the cruel and inhuman manner in which Jews were destroyed shows that this prophecy has completely been fulfilled. Parallel passages in Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21 reveal this. Mark 13:14 and onward extrapolate this truth. (cont)
@gracetruthguy - Mark 13:14 reads "14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[d] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[e] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." You are eisegeting text by literally translating it, instead of seeing it in its exegetical context. The "age" referred to is the 1st century. No literary gymnastics are required to interpret this, and place Yashua's response to a 21st century audience.
@gtguy- "standing where it ought not" is directly related to the invading Roman troops in the historical record noted by Josephus. Many Jews who recognized the sign ofthe amassing armies, fled. The reference in scripture relating to hope that the event doesn't occur on the Sabbath would be relative to the fact that even more Jews would have been slaughtered because they were required to go to Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, no matter where they were...
Please quote Josephus to prove your point that a standing roman related 'abomination' was in the temple before it was set on fire by the Jews as he relates.
Jesus knew there would be 2 temples. The one that was destroyed in AD70 and a later one. He mentions the 1st in exaclty the way Titus eventually dealt with it.
"not one stone shall be left here upon another" Matthew 24:2
And the 2nd is where this happens "the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" V.15
So that anotehr templed needs to be built for that fulfilment.
No one has sat in the temple declaring they are God.
@gracetruthguy - Solomon, and Herod both built Temples... Both were destroyed, on the same EXACT day of each other in both instances. When you say, Jesus "knew" there would be 2 temples, what scripture are you referring to? The Second Temple stood in Jerusalem between 516 BC and 70 AD. It replaced the First Temple which was destroyed in 586 BC when the Jewish nation was exiled to Babylon. I have shown you that your translation is errant, and now I guess you'll say 3 temples... False doctrine.
Mat.24:15 did not happen in AD70 so it still needs to happen.
Mat.24:15 and Mark 13:14 are parallel. As is 2 Thess. 2 with them.
Luke 21 is about AD70 only
What historical record do you have that anyone ceased the daily sacrifice, and erected an abomination in the temple and sat as God in the temple for all to see as a warning to flee?
@gracetruthguy - The problem with your interpretation of those passages is this. You are taking a prophetic, metaphoric, and symbolic statement, and you are applying a wooden literal translation to its meaning. This is called eisegesis, or reading INTO the text. How you consider 2Thess. 2 as a cross reference, or parallel text is beyond me. The historical record of the armies of Rome, and the battalions of Titus' army clearly fulfill this prophecy. (Let the reader understand) it states...
@gtguy - The Greek word genea translates a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years as follows (Strong's)
This angle may have worked if it were the only comment jesus made , but he said he would return in the clouds in all his glory within the lifetime of his disciples. He even told Caiaphas he would live to see his return.
I'd say jesus direct comments would trump anyone elses.
One example among several;
Mark 9
1 And he said to them, I tell you the truth, "some who are standing here" will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.
I like the Matrix and have done not a few auto electricals too! :0)
Jesus limited what would be seen before they died to "the kingdom of God come with power", but earlier he cast out demons from someone and states this was an indication of the kingdom of God coming among them.(Matthew 12:28), It is earlier as Mark 9:1 is a parallel passage to Mat.16:28. The transfiguration is mentioned immediately after each time of these parralells = this was the event of K of G coming!
sorry bro i know that's what you want to believe jesus meant to say but jesus actual words are ''truly i tell you this generation will not pass until all theses things happen'' he does'nt say Israel in general people can't go by what he might have been refering too they want to know what he actually said and meant in that passage and that's what he said and if that's what he said and meant than jesus is wrong.
The fact of the matter is there is one Greek word with 2 meanings.
The question then is which of the 2 is Jesus using that word for in the passage.
If it were the "generation" meaning then yes he would then be wrong.
But the context and mentions elsewhere point to him using the word GENEA for the "race/people/family group" meaning. So "generation" to me is a mistranslation into the English.
@gracetruthguy, the key that the BASIC meaning of "genea" (translated as "generation" in EVERY version), is meant is given in Matt 16: "There are SOME STANDING HERE" WHO WILL NOT DIE before the Son of man comes..The context of Matt 16 & 24 is the urgency of the TIME - not Israel's future existence (which was not in doubt). In Matt 10:23, Jesus tells his apostles they will not have done evangelising in Israel “before the end comes”. Likewise, Rev. 10:6: "There will be no further delay" (wrong!).
@gracetruthguy, I don't deny "genea" can have various connotations, but the primary meaning is "generation" in English. If you want to translate it as "race", then the context should support you. Note the context of Matt.16:27-28: "The Son of Man will come in his Father's glory with his angels..Some who are standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom". In the "transfiguration", Jesus did NOT come IN HIS KINGDOM with angels and power (also Mark 9:1).
Jesus says “who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” this is NOT his return, but a showing of the kingdom of God with Him.
This is how Jesus uses the phrase "if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God HAS COME UPON YOU" Matthew 12:28
With the transfiguration IMMEDIATELY told us after the ref. in question it is IN THAT CONTEXT of the phrase use of the kingdom coming upon them in the present, that this is so.
@gracetruthguy, I'm baffled as to why you think the "transfiguration" (Matt. 17) shows Jesus coming in his Kingdom with power and angels! It was not a display of power, just a sign of who he was. And the promised angels were not in evidence.
Moreover, why would he say: "Some standing here will not taste death" before they see it, when the event occurred just a few days or weeks (rather than many years) afterwards? For your interpretation to work, a term such as "shortly" or "soon" would fit.
@gracetruthguy, the angels are mentioned in Matt. 16:27, whileas the following verse has the "Son of Man coming in his kingdom". It is possible that verses 27 and 28 refer to separate events, as you suppose. However, the "transfiguration" is hardly a manifestation or demonstration of the kingdom comong with power! Moreover, it occurred only a week after Jesus' statement, so "some who are standing here will not taste death" (implying that many will) is hardly in context with your interpretation.
God made sure the true temple of His eternal dwelling was under construction prior to AD 70 and the final destruction of the temple made with hands. "you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5 NASB)
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Another clear example of a first century fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse: ...when YOU (Peter, James, John and Andrew- first century generation) SEE all these things, recognize that HE (the Lord) IS NEAR, RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (Matthew 24:33 NASB) [James, who must have seen the signs of the Lord's soon return, writing to a first century audience]...the COMING of THE LORD IS NEAR...behold, the Judge IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:8, 9 NASB)
promisesrkept 1 month ago
If you allow the evidence to penetrate through years of tradition and error first century fulfillment is unavoidale.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Evidence that the Olivet Discourse was being fulfilled in the first century: "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:22 NKJV; also Mk 13:20). "But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;" (1 Corinthians 7:29 NASB)
promisesrkept 1 month ago
First century Rome was the forth and final kingdom. God used that empire to destroy His harlot wife OC Israel. He then entered into covenant with spiritual Israel made up of the faithful, last days remnant, and the Gentiles.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
We are far apart in our interpretations of Scripture. I will leave you with an invitation to view one of the leading Preterist teachers/debaters. His name is Don K Preston and you'll find him here on YouTube. Thanks for the dicussion, it was very enjoyable. God bless you sir.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi prk,
Daniel is clear in that the Greek dynasties would be followed by the rule of iron which can easily be seen as the Romans and after them there would be those in the same region who rule with alliances "clay" mixed with "iron".
Since the Roman empire was at its greatest in the 3rd centrury AD the rule of 'iron' was in full sway well after 70AD and thus the Scripture tells us much needs to happen before the Antichrist and Jesus' return to govern the nations.
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
@gracetruthguy I don't agree at all that the OC survived AD 70. Jesus came to tear down the dividing wall per Eph2. Heb 10:9 also describes the setting aside of the OC to establish the NC. Jews and Gentiles have only one way to God, through the Messiah Jesus. That's the gospel.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi prk,
Jesus is the only name by which we can be saved. Acts 4:12
But that is no help to the man born deaf and blind.
Nor to the one who never hears of Jesus.
"preaching the gospel and healing everywhere" Luke 9:6
This gospel did not mention Jesus or his death since they understood none of those things (Luke 18:34)
Peter tells us that Cornelius was accepted before he heard about Jesus (Acts 10:35)
How much more those of the natural tree who are faithful in all B4 them (Rom.2:9)
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
Brother, I need to apologize for using the word "absurd" in a recent comment, and not just once but three times. I try my best to divorce my emotions from my defense of what I believe is truth, but my passion sometimes makes that difficult. Please forgive me.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi prk,
Forgiven :0)
This is a good time to mention:
ht tp: {forward slash forward slash) w w w (dot) jarom (dot) net (forward slash) idol (dot) php
[wiithout spaces and brackets]
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
In Lk 21:8 Jesus told Peter, James, John and Andrew (Mk 13:3) not to follow anyone who says "the time is near." Then, 25-35 years later, Peter, James and John ALL proclaim "the time is near!" (1 Pet 4:7; James 5:7-9; Rev 1:3; 22:6,10). They ALL saw the signs of His return, or they were the false prophets Jesus warned about!
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi prk,
Really, they saw the sacrifices cease in the temple and the abomination set up?
Really?
Please name this prince (as he is called in Daniel) and please note Daniel prophesied a long dynasty for the Roman 'earth': the rule of iron long before the iron and clay period: the iron rule was at its zenith in the 2nd CENTURY AD!
Is it impossilbe for them to say near in no greater emphasis than Jesus "And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ " Matthew 10:7
?
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
Heb 8:13 says the OC was ready to disappear. AD 70 is unmistakingly when it was removed. If one misses that they're not even making a serious attemt to pursue truth.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi prk,
Did u not know that Jews, unaware of the loss of the temple after AD70 travelled from the further outreaches of their diaspora to worhip there?
The OC is still there for all born Jews who are faithful to their God without knowing about Jesus. Right until the veil is removed as per Romans 11.
And this is why the temple will be rebuilt. Adn it is a temple to come at Jerusalem where the Antichrist will sit and blaspheme as Paul said (and Jesus and Daniel)
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
Humor me for a moment. You seem to believe Mt 24 and Mk 13 are accounts of the Olivet Discourse but Lk 21 is not? If so, that's absurd! You agree that Lk 21:20 is AD 70 but you think Lk 21:24 is yet future? Again, absurd and inconsistent. You think Rev 3:10 is first century but 3:11 is yet future, absurd! Set aside your bias, presupposition and pride and seriously consider first century fufillment.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi prk,
Luke adds many things not seen in the other synoptics and the Holy Spirit used him in this to equip the saints in ways the others did not:
Wise men, Distinct genealogy, Wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit, et al
Nowhere I suggest Lk21 was not part of the Olivet discourse
It is consistent to what Jesus said in Mat.24:1-2
Jesus spoke of 2 events in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 9:6 "Unto us a Child is born . . . government will be upon His shoulder"
2 separate events: same Person
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
I watched a few of your videos. The main problem is that you've ignored the time frame and audience relevance which leads one to wild speculations. From Moses to John the main focus of Scripture is the ages of the Old and New Covenants.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi promisesrkept,
There is nothing willd about step by step deductions based on the Scripture given for those steps.
It is wild to base an age change on one date WITHOUT the many specific signs that are mentioned to accompany the coming age change on earth.
The age change applies now only to those to whom it is given.
The Jews have not been given it yet because it is the time of the Gentiles and this is why they are blinded in part. Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
The futurist continues to miss the fact that the setting of the entire NT was the last days of the Old Covenant age (Mt 24:3). The arrival of Messiah signaled the soon transition and transformation to the eternal New Covenant age. AD 70 was the event that accomplished the removal of the OC system (Heb 8:13).
promisesrkept 1 month ago
HI promisesrkept,
Basing a view on a question posed in Mt 24:3 which was refuted or answered to show it was not 'just like that' [just as the disciples were answered again in Acts 1:7 "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."] is a poor foundation for your dogma.
As for Heb. 8:13 there is no link to AD70 whatsoever; just that it was going to happen. They knew a new age was coming from various OT prophecies too!
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
In your opinion, how would John's words to the Philadelphia church have been understood and applied? How would they have understood the phrase: "that hour which is about to come upon the whole world"?
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Just as there were many occasions when Israel was warned about world disasters to come and that they would be a part of those if they did not repent, here another is mentioned to the Philadelphian church, but that they would be spared from it.
The world famine was spared Israel and family by Joseph.
The world was not spared the Baylonian 'plague' and nor was Israel.
And so on.
I am coming quickly is separate and also a personal warning,
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
@gracetruthguy Again, Paul, in 2 Thess., calls him "man of lawlessness," not Antichrist. You're confusing the terms by incorrectly using them.
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Paul calls him the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition" in 2 Thess.2
Judas Iscariot was also called the son of perdition (John 17:12)
John described Judas as an antichrist whilst talking about THE Antichrist that was to come (1 John 2:18-19)
So THE son of perdition and THE Antichrist and THE man of sin/lawlessness are interchangeable terms for the THE same person: also THE Beast, THE prince et al
Many prophecies about Christ: many about Antichrist
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
@gracetruthguy I didn't say the Thessalonians thought "the coming was fulfilled." However, because Paul adressed them specifically, and those of their generation generally, they were certain they would witness the events personally (at least those who were alive in the next few years).
promisesrkept 1 month ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Paul addressed the Thessalonians that there would be NO COMING WHATSOEVER UNTIL certain specifics would happen. That same ones that Jesus and Daniel mentioned. The ones that would spark off the 42 months.
Luke 21's are separate events! Separate signs are given!
So they were certain they woukd NOT witness it UNTIL those things happened.
No mentions of it being in that generation whatsoever.
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
I'm left wondering if you are going to answer my question about being a member of the first century church in Philadelphia?
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I answered by pointing to another letter written to the Thessalonians - using your method - to show that for them none of the events in Jerusalem persuaded them the coming was fulfilled .
And, since Paul's letters were asked to be circulated among the churches it is false to suggest they were fixed for 1 audience only.
Thereby your limited interpretation of the lettrer to Philadelphia fails in my reading.
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
The NT writers wrote their letters to specific churches rather than simply addressing them to: "To whom it may concern." The reason is obvious: The content of their messages were relevant to their audiences. If your interpretation does not include this principle, you've missed the context.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
This is from an interesting article: The Roman occupation affected the High Priest, who served in the Temple and represented the Jewish people on their holiest of days. Jews had always selected their High Priest, but under Roman rule the Romans decided who would hold the position. As a result, it was often people who conspired with Rome that were made High Priest- giving those trusted least by the Jewish people the highest position in the community.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
NT eschatology is about the last days of the Mosaic, Old Covenant age, and the transformation to the Messianic, New Covenant age. Those under the OC could not live in God's Presence. Those under the NC are the dwelling place of God on the earth (2 Cor 6:16-18; Rev 21:1-4). The first century, OC Jerusalem was cast out in AD 70 (Gal 4:21-31), the NC New Jerusalem has arrived.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (2 Thessalonians 2:3 ESV) This may not be the Roman beast. This may very well have been the High Priest. He was the leader of a corrupt, lawless system, and people. These Messiah rejecting Old Covenant people were themselves an abomination to God. The text does not call him the Antichrist as you've asserted.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
I definitely would expect God to fulfill His promises made through an inspired Apostle. Those who were persecuting me would be judged, in flaming fire. That's exactly what I would have seen in AD 70.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
First, you didn't even try to answer my question. Second, if I was in Paul's audience I would apply his words to myself: since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 ESV)
promisesrkept 2 months ago
If you were a member at Philadelphia in John's day how would you have understood: 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. (Revelation 3:10, 11 NASB)
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept
If you were a member of Thessalonica and you heard Paul say that unless you saw a guy sitting in the temple of God blaspheming and claiming to be God, Jesus and the rapture was not going to happen (yet), then since you were on the other side of the Mediterranean from the temple and no one has done that, you would know it was still not yet. (2 Thess.2)
So anyone claiming Jesus' return and all those prophecies are fulfilled are deceived if they cannot say who did that.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
Brother, have you ever attempted to read the NT from the perspective of the original audiences? If one can set presuppositions aside and consider their view of inspired words directed to them in their situations and circumstances, the NT takes on new meaning. Remember, they weren't writing epistles to the churches of New York or Los Angeles, but to those of the first century.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
The "beast coming up out of the earth (Land- or Israel)" has been understood as either religious or political leaders within the land of Israel. Some have thought the second beast was the Jewish religious system itself. The Jewish leaders committed blasphemy within the temple and joined forces with Rome against the church. Others have thought that he was a governor of Judea under Nero, either Albinus or Gessius Florus.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
The time of Satan's authority to overcome the saints was 42 months. Nero's persecution lasted from approx. late AD 64- mid AD 68, 42 months. He has been condidered the "beast rising up out of the sea (Gentiles)."
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
If you took time to consider the concentrated information in the 2 vids I've done with the same title:
"The Return of Jesus Centuries Away - Jacques More"
Then, you would know the Antichrist will come from one of the divisions of the Greek empire/'earth'
None of the Roman rulers or Jewish religious leaders - i.e. no one on the scene - up to AD70 fit the bill.
Whereas the Christ was prophesied as coming from Bethlehem, and he did!
The antichrist has not, yet!
gracetruthguy 1 month ago
There have been attempts to identify the beasts of Revelation. The unbelieving Jews proclaimed, "We have no king but Caesar!" (John 19:15) thus giving him their allegiance and obedience. This, of course, was blasphemy. So, the Roman Caesar during Israels latter days can be considered 'the beast' which includes Nero. He was the Devil's agent in persecuting the church.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Though the details of the prophecies fulfilled almost 2000 years ago may not all be known to us now I believe they were, in fact, fulfilled. It is not necessary to identify every detail as you insist, though we may eventually, in order to take the Words of God concerning the first century timing of the events at face value.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
"The only NEAR is in that ERA in which we exist"? No, John, the inspired Apostle, informed living breathing people in the first century that the events were near for THEM. He wasn't writing in a vacuum. Daniel was told his prophecies were not for his day, they were sealed, so John's were for his day since they were not sealed. This is really quite simple, how are you missing it?
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
So please answer:
Who was the Antichrist?
When did he sit as God in the temple of God having ceased the daily sacrifice and erected the abomination?
(42 months before AD70 as per your own words)
Where are the records of that?
According to Josephus (I think) the sacrifices carried on well into the siege time within your 42 months period, so they did not cease when you say they did.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
The idea that Luke 21:20 is about AD 70 but Mt 24:15 & Mk 13:14 are yet future is obviously in error. They are all versions of the same message delivered by Jesus- The Olivet Discourse! Why do you insist on lifting one verse out of Luke's version and assign a first century fulfillment? That's dishonest to say the least.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
So please answer:
Who was the Antichrist?
When did he sit as God in the temple of God having ceased the daily sacrifice and erected the abomination?
(42 months before AD70 as per your own words)
Where are the records of that?
According to Josephus (I think) the sacrifices carried on well into the siege time within your 42 months period, so they did not cease when you say they did.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
The time of the Gentiles WAS the 42 months leading up to AD 70.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
May this quote of yours serve to convict you of the truth in Jesus' name:
"The time of the Gentiles WAS the 42 months leading up to AD 70"
Since,
"from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days" Daniel 12:11
That is the starting point of the 42 months.
Again I ask,
Who was the antichrist that removed the sacrifice et al before the time leading up to AD70?
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
And I also know the first century generation was living in the time of the end prophesied by Daniel. Jesus unsealed Daniel (Mt 24:15). The Revelation was not sealed (Rev 22:10) as Daniel was because there would be no delay for the fulfillment of John's prophecies. They were NEAR!
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
The only NEAR is in that ERA in which we exist.
Before the Cross it was not (as that was in the preceding era).
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. (Luke 21:20 ESV) I am confident of at least two things: Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and she was made desolate just as the prophets said.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Yep Luke 21:20 was fulfilled as was Matthew 24:1-2: all in AD66-70
But Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and much in Daniel was not fulfilled.
Just as the prophets said.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
Again, it's about covenants not the planet. Allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and consider the time frame references and how they applied to the original audiences and you will avoid the false premise of futurism.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Daniel makes clear that there would be 1,290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away. 42 months in Revelation and also 3½ years, when did that happen?
And the abomination set up in its place?
Who was the Antichrist that did that?
Where are the reports?
The historical records?
When did the Gentiles time cease?
Check out this vid and learn (if u can)
"The Year of the Lord's Return - An understanding - Jacques More"
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy We know that Peter died prior to AD 70 so what is your point?
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
John who wrote both about it being the last hour (and there year after year) also wrote about Peter's death of old age.
He always understood the last hour as not an imminent event, but an ongoing season.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy When you read Isaiah 51:16 you see that Isaiah "spitualizes" too. Yes, the heaven and earth that God established at Sinai passed away with fire as Peter predicted. The seed that remains is Abrahams seed, which is Christ, as described in Gal. 3. The remnant was saved leading up to AD 70. They are called the first- fruits.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Just as Isaiah does not 'spiritualize' earth and heaven in 51:16 since it is continuaton of the mention in V.13 nor does he in 66:22
" 'as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,' says the LORD, 'So shall your descendants and your name remain' "
Nothing spiritual. The Lord will make a new heaven and a new earth and He has not yet.Just as Peter said.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
John told his audience "we know it is the last hour." Are you saying that the New Covenant age believers have always been living in the last hour? The evidence is clear: John and his first century audience were about to witness the end of the Jewish age. No need to make excuses for the imminent language, it took place just as they said it would. Again, God keeps His promises!
promisesrkept 2 months ago
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy The context is the New Covenant in Jer. 31. The OC heaven & earth passed away fully in AD 70. The New Covenant heavens & earth, the Messianic Kingdom, remains forever. True Israel is made up of all who are in Christ. God has kept His promise to His people- in Christ!
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
So you spiritualise earth and heaven so it does not mean the planet we all inhabit nor the star in the sky that gives our light and heat, but something unfathomable?
Yes, true Israel is made up of all who are in Christ, but these are never termed as "the seed of Israel":
Gentiles are grafted in as wild olive barnches into the natural
Jer 31context is God saving the remnant of Jews and putting his law in their hearts.
Not those who already have God's law in them!
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy You are twisting and distorting the time frame passages in an attempt to support your "end of the planet" fantasy. The Old Covenant came to an end with fire in AD 70. That is the context you refuse to see.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
U:
'your "end of the planet" fantasy'
Nope the factual reality:
'But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.'
2 Peter 3:7
See, it hat NOT happened yet,
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
The end in focus in the Scripture is the end of the Jewish age. It's about covenants not the planet. If your premise is off, and it is, your findings will be off, and they are. God bless you brother. Try to enjoy this New Covenant age in which we live.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
If God is true to His word - and He is - then Israel: the Jews will be there whilst the sun and moon remain:
"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea and its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): ''If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the Lord, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.' "
Jeremiah 31:35-36
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy Not one Scripture that expresses the soon coming of the Lord in their generation as promised? Let me list a few: Paul- 1 Cor 10:11; Rom 13:11,12; Peter- 1 Pet. 4:5,7; James- James 5:7-9; John- 1 Jn 2:18; Rev. 1:1-3; 3:10,11; 22:6,10,12.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Not one of these passages make mention of "in their generation".
Sure, there is "the last hour", "the ends of the ages", "the day is at hand", et al
But all these refer to the time after the central prophetic point being fulfilled - the lamb of God taking away the sin of the world - Before that was the beginning, the foundation and the 1st hour (if you will)
Now is the next part in God's eyes and eternal purposes.
But actual return and burn up of earth not so yet!
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy I'm sure their audiences did recognize him. Remember, the Bible was written FOR us, not TO us!
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
The onus is on you to prove that the Antichrist came and that no one wrote about him to identify him. Expecially since Daniel, Jesus, Paul, John all mentinoned the importance of recognising him and what he would do:
Express extreme blesphemy, rise up from one of the Greek empire factions, overturn 3 kingdoms and rule over 10, arouse the kingdoms of the East against him, sit in the temple, and wear out the saints: not one of these has happened since mentioned.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
You continue to ignore the time frame for the events to take place. Since all NT writers said the events were soon, near, and about to be, you are not accepting their words. There is clearly a first century time frame that you are ignoring completely.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Actually no.
The opposite was instructed.
"we ask you, NOT to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." 2 Thess.2:1-2
Or Peter in reply to "Where is the promise of His coming?" in 2 Peter 3:1-9
Peter himself was told he was going to die an old man (John 21:18). Not exactly a sign of a soon, near or at hand coming!
There is no 1st century time frame in Scripture.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
@gracetruthguy According to the inspired writers he was around in their day. Even if we can't identify him, that doesn't change the first century time frame.
promisesrkept 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I'd rather take Jesus and Paul's words that he would be indentified.
That means he has not been..
If you can't say who he was, then he has not been yet.
And preterism is error.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Please do quote them and mention who they say he was.
Both Jesus and Paul said he's be recognisable. If he was not that's becasue he has not been yet.
If you can't ID him, then you are believing error in saying his work was done.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
If He indeed returns in 2018 it will be 70th year after the rebirth of Israel.
But I doubt this is the case.
Still, we will see Him in glory when He returns. ^_^
BritneyAddicted4EVA 2 months ago
Not sure if you heard about this guys so I'm gonna tell it anyway. I might be wrong so I will not claim that this is correct but just my guess. This year, couple weeks ago was a red moon over Jerusalem. Some say that a 7 year period of blood moons started and will end in 2018. Now, those who say it did not link it to the Bible at all. If that is true, it would make sense that Jesus is coming very soon. There was a 70 year difference between His birth and the destruction of the temple.
BritneyAddicted4EVA 2 months ago
Hi Britney,
Check out my other videos like:
"The Return of Jesus Centuries Away - Jacques More"
Or,
"The Year of the Lord's Return - An understanding - Jacques More"
The bible is clear until the temple is rebuilt and the antichrist is seen sitting and blaspheming in it, we are not in the time zone.
Read 2 Thessalonians 2 and see Paul said that.
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
The third and final temple was being built in the first century. Compare 2 Cor. 6:16-18 and Ez. 37:26-28 with Rev. 21:3. The NT writers saw the people of God as the fulfillment of God's dwelling place on the earth. Peter said, "you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house (temple), a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 2:5 NKJV). Jesus is the cornerstone of this temple!
promisesrkept 3 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I trust you are well.
The problem with such 'spiritual' fulfilments, they take no account of the Atichrist as someone to look out for.
So, please say, who was the Antichrist that was recognisable?
gracetruthguy 2 months ago
I have shown conclusively that Luke 21:20 is parallel with Mt 24:15 & Mk 13:14. This means that the fulfillment of Daniel and Paul was in the AD 70 destruction of the city and the temple by the Romans, Daniels fourth kingdom. From that time on is the never ending kingdom of God which is the Messianic, New Covenant, spiritual kingdom.
promisesrkept 3 months ago
Your assumption of race rather than generation is based on your faulty presupposition, in my opinion. Scripture shows that the first century generation was the very one Moses predicted and the NT writers identified.
promisesrkept 3 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
That is your reading of course which is not identifiable in my reading.
You still have to demonstrate a reply to the clear words of Paul, Jesus and Daniel about the abomination of desolation recognised by Paul with the son of perdition sitting in the temple and blaspheming. That has never happened since he said it and is in parallel to what Jesus and Daniel said.
it has never happened in that temple building, but will in the one that has yet to be built on the site.
gracetruthguy 3 months ago
That comment was directed to jomjohny's comment.
promisesrkept 3 months ago
@promisesrkept
I see it now since you mention it, but his comment was tagged as spam and I had not read it till now. I've un-spammed it.
gracetruthguy 3 months ago
Do you think it will continue to be "this generation" indefinitely? Is there evidence that any other generation has been defined as 63+ years?
promisesrkept 3 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I'm still busy, AND WILL REPLY TO YOUR EARLIER COMMENTS, but making such a comment is as if you've totally forgotten what is IN THE VIDEO!
The evidence points to 2 (TWO) meanings for GENEA.
The meaning in this passage is NOT a generation, but a related group.
PERIOD
Your question thereby is completely void.
gracetruthguy 3 months ago
this generation is 63 years old (1948)
jomjohny 3 months ago
Hi jomjohny,
promisesrkept replied to your comment.
gracetruthguy 3 months ago
@gracetruthguy Now i know only God knows the 2nd coming........... anyway..just be ready .......thats the whole point right .?
jomjohny 3 months ago
In the OT we don't see all of the prophets of a particular generation saying the coming of the Lord is soon, near, and about to be as in the NT. There were times of judgement in the OT that were said to be near and they were.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I haven't forgotten you.
gracetruthguy 3 months ago
Here is the best way I've found to understand the context of which generation is in view in the NT: Deut 31:29; Deut 32:5; Deut 32:20; Mt 17:17; Mt 23:36; Mt 24:34; Acts 2:40; Phil 2:15. Read these carefully and they'll lead you to the first century AD.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hebrews 13:8 simply means Jesus is eternal, not that He must remain in a flesh and bone body. He is God and therefore Omnipresent. He set aside His attributes for a time to fulfill prophecies in the flesh. Since His ascension He is Spirit.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
So, it was the same Jesus the disciples saw go into heaven Who came back within their generation just as Jesus said. His coming was near, soon and it was about to be, just as the inspired writers said throughout the NT. Do you believe the Scriptures?
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept
If GENEA is not generation but race/related group here then no Jesus did not say that.
The inspired writers throughout the Old Testament proclaimed His coming too, and how long did it take when it was near and soon then too?
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
How did God accomplish this? so the king of Assyria will lead away the captives of Egypt and the exiles of Cush, young and old, naked and barefoot with buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. (Isaiah 20:4 NASB) He did so through the king of Assyria. Jesus came in judgement through the Roman armies in AD 70.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept
Sure, God uses others to effect judgment for Him.
But He does not use others to eat or drink for Him. when He says He will do it Himself.
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
When Jesus returned it was as His Father had come in the past. The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isaiah 19:1 NASB)
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept
Yes, Jesus is fully God as He always was, but He is fully Man now and He always will be.
And a fully Man he will return in His resurrected bodily state as we all will who have fallen asleep. For He returns with "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints" Jude 14
And we will eat and drink together in the new kingdom
The Father never ate with men, Jesus did with Abraham yes, and will again in Jerusalem
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
Yes I do. The same Jesus existed before His incarnation as Spirit. After His ascension He reverted back to His pre-incarnation form. So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB)
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept
We also read " Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" Hebrews 13:8
This does not mean some things revert back to a beginning state.
Jesus remains the God-Man forever
And sure He has a resurrected body now, but He still ate and He will eat and drink again is explicit.
"I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom" Matthew 26:29
We know they will see whom they have pierced.
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
Remember, it was Peter, James and John who were present when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
“Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11
Do you believe that?
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. (1 Peter 4:7 NASB) Another inspired writer saying the end is near. Were they false prophets, or was the end of the age really near? I believe they were true prophets.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. (1 John 2:18 NASB) Why would this inspired apostle inform his audience that they were living in the last hour?
promisesrkept 4 months ago
What signs did James, an inspired writer, see that caused him to inform his audience that the coming of the Lord was near?
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (James 5:7-9 NASB)
promisesrkept 4 months ago
"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (Matthew 24:32, 33 NASB)
promisesrkept 4 months ago
then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. (Matthew 24:16, 17 NASB) "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; (Luke 21:21 NASB) Of course they are similar, they were spoken at the same time in the same context!
promisesrkept 4 months ago
The fact that the writer of Hebrews declared that the Old Covenant was becoming obsolete and was ready to vanish away was a time statement (Heb 8:13). All of the imminent language points to the end of the age. This is clear when one considers Jesus' words in Mt 24:32-34 & James' words in James 5:7-9. Jesus said their generation would not pass away until all is fulfilled, and James said His coming was near and the Judge was standing at the door.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
This video explains there are 2 MEANINGS for GENEA
I take Israel and thereby the word PEOPLE or RACE as the translation in Jesus saying "This people will not pass away until all is fulfilled"
It was also told Peter he would die an old man
"when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish” John 21:18
"Soon" is a relative term just as "the last days" begun at Pentecost
cf. Acts 2:17
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
Jacques, So do you think the verses immediately following Mt 24:15 & Lk 21:20 are parallel since they are so similar? And, is Matthew & Mark's account the Olivet Discourse or is Luke's?
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I do not C verses immediately following Mat.24:15 and Luke 21:20 to be parallel as they are not so similar
The ones later ARE "there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars" Luke 21:25 BUT
THAT IS AFTER Jesus is quoted as saying
"Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Lk21:24
Mat.24:15 on is about the end. Luke 21:20-24 is up to that time.
Jesus spoke of both in the Olivet cf Mat.24:2 = Lk21:20 time
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
Again, the generation from AD30-AD70 was the terminal generation of the Old Covenant age. Therefore, eschatology can only refer to that age since the New Covenant age never ends. Those who are in Christ are true Israel and members of the spiritual kingdom of God.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Yes, those who are in Christ are the new Israel.
But, just as Peter, James and John were Jews and Christians and were of the new Israel and other Jews were not yet, so it is now.
The arbitrary idea that AD70 is the end of that period is based on what?
There are no mentions of the destruction of the temple as the end factor.
The end factor is what would happen 3½ years AFTER something happens IN the temple.
42 months, 3½ years and the same amount of days!
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
I have heard others say that Matthew and Mark refer to something different from Luke. That is a false premise since all are accounts of the Olivet Discourse and Mt 24:15; Mk 13:14; Lk 21:20 are parallel passages. The Roman armies were the fulfillment.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Luke 21:20 is in no way parallel to Mat.24:15
One is about armies surounding Jerusalem (under siege)
The other is about someone doing something in the temple
You can't have someon in the temple who is the enemy when the enemy is outside the very town in which the temple lies.
And in the historical event AD70 the temple was set on fire by the defenders BEFORE the Romans came into Jerusalem.
Read Josephus.
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
The time period from AD30-AD70 was the terminal generation of the Old Covenant age. The New Covenant age has no end therefore eschatology applies to the Old not the New, so prophecy was focused on the termination of the Old.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse addresses your objections. Compare Lk 21:20-24 and Mt 24:15-28. The Roman armies caused the desolation of Old Covenant Jerusalem.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
I have compared the 2 passages and written about them. There are 2 different temples in view. Two different times/seasons being described.
Mat.24:25 on and Mark 13 describe the 1 temple where the abomination and ongoing tribulation happens.
As does Daniel, 2 Thess.2 and Revelaiton. In these the temple is NOT destroyed, but events in it are mentioned
The other is Mat.24:1-2 and Luke 21.
In these the temple is destroyed and the armies surround Jerusalem.
i.e. AD70
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
Eschatology only applies to the Old Covenant age which ended in AD 70. The New Covenant age came in full at the passing away of the previous age (Heb 8:13; 10:9). This age has no end!
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi Promisesrkept,
End time prophecy did not end in AD70
Paul is explicit that the Antichrist would sit as God in the temple of God and utter blasphemies:
2 Thess. 2:3-4 Jesus said there would be tribulation AFTER the abomination is set up.
No abomination was set up in AD70 and that temple's destruction was the END of that period of trial for Israel. Daniel makes clear the clock starts to tick FROM the removal of the daily sacrifice. That has not yet happened
Etcetera
Romans 11:25-26
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
The term 'this generation' refers to Old Covenant age. Moses predicted the end (Deut 31:29; 32:5). Jesus identified His contemporaries as that wicked generation (Mt 17:17). Peter (Acts 2:40), and Paul (Phil 2:15), confirm this fact.
promisesrkept 4 months ago
Hi promisesrkept,
Thank you for your considered comment
I disagree for number of reasons:
2 uses of GENEA are evident
In Mt17:17 for example it is the disciples who could not cast out the demon - the unbelieving group Jesus was referring to. I translate in paraphrase form "O faithless and perverse group of guys, how long
shall I be with you?"
Either meaning "the generation of time" or " the group" are possible for Acts 2 and Phil 2:15 and Deut 32:5
Much prophecy unfulfilled
gracetruthguy 4 months ago
I've made a video response to the same video you attached this video to, from ProfMTH's site. I hope you take a look at it to see a different, and exegetical account of the Olivet Discourse...
Boanerges7 10 months ago
The point in the video where you state there has been no standing abomination in the temple, I think there's an oversight as to what happened when Rome destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. Historical records indicate that this has occurred already.
Boanerges7 10 months ago
Hi Mark/Boanerges7,
When you read the eye witness account of the historian Josephus of the 70AD event you find that the Jews set fire to the temple buildings BEFORE the Romans set foot in it.
The abomination is told us as something that will be seen by all after the daily sacrifice is made to cease in the temple. That has never happened since Jesus and Paul's meniton of this.
e.g. 2 Thessalonians.2:4 "he sits as God in the temple of God"
There is no record of anyone doing that.
gracetruthguy 10 months ago
@gracetruthguy - I beg to differ. Josephus records the heinous, and irreverent manner in which Titus' armies accomplished this, not only the destruction of the temple, but the cruel and inhuman manner in which Jews were destroyed shows that this prophecy has completely been fulfilled. Parallel passages in Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21 reveal this. Mark 13:14 and onward extrapolate this truth. (cont)
Boanerges7 10 months ago
@gracetruthguy - Mark 13:14 reads "14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[d] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[e] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." You are eisegeting text by literally translating it, instead of seeing it in its exegetical context. The "age" referred to is the 1st century. No literary gymnastics are required to interpret this, and place Yashua's response to a 21st century audience.
Boanerges7 10 months ago
@gtguy- "standing where it ought not" is directly related to the invading Roman troops in the historical record noted by Josephus. Many Jews who recognized the sign ofthe amassing armies, fled. The reference in scripture relating to hope that the event doesn't occur on the Sabbath would be relative to the fact that even more Jews would have been slaughtered because they were required to go to Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, no matter where they were...
Boanerges7 10 months ago
Hi Mark,
I've read the relevant Josephus writings.
Please quote Josephus to prove your point that a standing roman related 'abomination' was in the temple before it was set on fire by the Jews as he relates.
gracetruthguy 10 months ago
Hi Mark,
Jesus knew there would be 2 temples. The one that was destroyed in AD70 and a later one. He mentions the 1st in exaclty the way Titus eventually dealt with it.
"not one stone shall be left here upon another" Matthew 24:2
And the 2nd is where this happens "the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" V.15
So that anotehr templed needs to be built for that fulfilment.
No one has sat in the temple declaring they are God.
gracetruthguy 10 months ago
@gracetruthguy - Solomon, and Herod both built Temples... Both were destroyed, on the same EXACT day of each other in both instances. When you say, Jesus "knew" there would be 2 temples, what scripture are you referring to? The Second Temple stood in Jerusalem between 516 BC and 70 AD. It replaced the First Temple which was destroyed in 586 BC when the Jewish nation was exiled to Babylon. I have shown you that your translation is errant, and now I guess you'll say 3 temples... False doctrine.
Boanerges7 10 months ago
Hi Mark,
Jesus did not prophesy backwards.
Mat. 24:2 involves the fulfilled in AD70
Mat.24:15 did not happen in AD70 so it still needs to happen.
Mat.24:15 and Mark 13:14 are parallel. As is 2 Thess. 2 with them.
Luke 21 is about AD70 only
What historical record do you have that anyone ceased the daily sacrifice, and erected an abomination in the temple and sat as God in the temple for all to see as a warning to flee?
gracetruthguy 10 months ago
@gracetruthguy - The problem with your interpretation of those passages is this. You are taking a prophetic, metaphoric, and symbolic statement, and you are applying a wooden literal translation to its meaning. This is called eisegesis, or reading INTO the text. How you consider 2Thess. 2 as a cross reference, or parallel text is beyond me. The historical record of the armies of Rome, and the battalions of Titus' army clearly fulfill this prophecy. (Let the reader understand) it states...
Boanerges7 10 months ago
Hi Mark,
Please explain what is symbolic about someone sitting in the temple and saying they are God?
That is language of an actual act.
And an act for which there is no historical record of having happened since it was stated.
Let alone being a sign to anyone by which they can know of it and flee.
gracetruthguy 10 months ago
"Until the decedents of everyone living today in the nation of Israel are completely eradicated, we will not see these come to pass."
Is that what is is being contended in this video? If so, is quite the meaningless statement.
redscape 1 year ago
Hi redscape,
No, all it is saying is that Israel -as a recognizable distinct people/race/nation - will remain until all is fulfilled that had just been menitoned.
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
@gtguy - The Greek word genea translates a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character 1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation 3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years as follows (Strong's)
Boanerges7 10 months ago
"Until the decedents of everyone living today are completely eradicated, we will not see these come to pass."
Is that what is is being contended in this video? If so, is quite the meaningless statement.
redscape 1 year ago
Hi redscape,
See my ealier reply.
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
This angle may have worked if it were the only comment jesus made , but he said he would return in the clouds in all his glory within the lifetime of his disciples. He even told Caiaphas he would live to see his return.
I'd say jesus direct comments would trump anyone elses.
One example among several;
Mark 9
1 And he said to them, I tell you the truth, "some who are standing here" will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.
Cootabux 1 year ago
Hi Cootabux,
I like the Matrix and have done not a few auto electricals too! :0)
Jesus limited what would be seen before they died to "the kingdom of God come with power", but earlier he cast out demons from someone and states this was an indication of the kingdom of God coming among them.(Matthew 12:28), It is earlier as Mark 9:1 is a parallel passage to Mat.16:28. The transfiguration is mentioned immediately after each time of these parralells = this was the event of K of G coming!
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
gracetruthguy, you need a video communications guy.
timiusprime 1 year ago
Hi timiusprime,
Probably.
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
@timiusprime that was rude
shinethelight18 1 year ago
Genea means the SAME AS GENERATION. Possibly referring to a group of related people but LIVING AT THE SAME TIME.
Every time someone points out an error in the Bible, the answer is "the words don't mean what they mean"
The Bible has precious few opportunities to be wrong and every time it is, it's the same story.
It's amazing the hat dance that's done to make Genesis sound plausible.
swilson3d 1 year ago
Hi Sam,
There are two meanings for GENEA as is evident by both uses regularly in the Septuagint.
It is dependent on the context as to which one is meant.
And yes, it does mean "generation" more times than it means "a family/race grouping"
Where does Genesis come into this?
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
sorry bro i know that's what you want to believe jesus meant to say but jesus actual words are ''truly i tell you this generation will not pass until all theses things happen'' he does'nt say Israel in general people can't go by what he might have been refering too they want to know what he actually said and meant in that passage and that's what he said and if that's what he said and meant than jesus is wrong.
DB0175 1 year ago
Hi DB0175,
The fact of the matter is there is one Greek word with 2 meanings.
The question then is which of the 2 is Jesus using that word for in the passage.
If it were the "generation" meaning then yes he would then be wrong.
But the context and mentions elsewhere point to him using the word GENEA for the "race/people/family group" meaning. So "generation" to me is a mistranslation into the English.
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
@gracetruthguy, the key that the BASIC meaning of "genea" (translated as "generation" in EVERY version), is meant is given in Matt 16: "There are SOME STANDING HERE" WHO WILL NOT DIE before the Son of man comes..The context of Matt 16 & 24 is the urgency of the TIME - not Israel's future existence (which was not in doubt). In Matt 10:23, Jesus tells his apostles they will not have done evangelising in Israel “before the end comes”. Likewise, Rev. 10:6: "There will be no further delay" (wrong!).
psandbergnz 1 year ago
Hi psandbergnz,
Just because many translators have not availed themselves of the truth that GENEA is used for 2 different purposes is no argument that it is not so.
The following verses after the one with "some standing here" are always about the transfiguration and points to that being what Jesus talked about.
The context of Rev.10:6 i.e. Verse 7 points to when that applies.
Have you seen my video:
"The Year of the Lord's Return - An understanding - Jacques More"
?
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
@gracetruthguy, I don't deny "genea" can have various connotations, but the primary meaning is "generation" in English. If you want to translate it as "race", then the context should support you. Note the context of Matt.16:27-28: "The Son of Man will come in his Father's glory with his angels..Some who are standing here will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom". In the "transfiguration", Jesus did NOT come IN HIS KINGDOM with angels and power (also Mark 9:1).
psandbergnz 1 year ago
Hi psandbergnz,
Jesus says “who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” this is NOT his return, but a showing of the kingdom of God with Him.
This is how Jesus uses the phrase "if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God HAS COME UPON YOU" Matthew 12:28
With the transfiguration IMMEDIATELY told us after the ref. in question it is IN THAT CONTEXT of the phrase use of the kingdom coming upon them in the present, that this is so.
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
@gracetruthguy, I'm baffled as to why you think the "transfiguration" (Matt. 17) shows Jesus coming in his Kingdom with power and angels! It was not a display of power, just a sign of who he was. And the promised angels were not in evidence.
Moreover, why would he say: "Some standing here will not taste death" before they see it, when the event occurred just a few days or weeks (rather than many years) afterwards? For your interpretation to work, a term such as "shortly" or "soon" would fit.
psandbergnz 1 year ago
Hi psandbergnz,
Jesus said,
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Matthew 16:27
This is about the 2nd coming.
THEN he adds,
"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” V.28
A separate statement of a separate event. The angels are not mentioned.
And Peter, James and John did not taste death till after...
gracetruthguy 1 year ago
@gracetruthguy, the angels are mentioned in Matt. 16:27, whileas the following verse has the "Son of Man coming in his kingdom". It is possible that verses 27 and 28 refer to separate events, as you suppose. However, the "transfiguration" is hardly a manifestation or demonstration of the kingdom comong with power! Moreover, it occurred only a week after Jesus' statement, so "some who are standing here will not taste death" (implying that many will) is hardly in context with your interpretation.
psandbergnz 1 year ago