why people think "Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, White countries for EVERYONE"??
THIS ISN'T EQUALITY! THIS IS ANTI-WHITE RACISM!
The government washed our brain so much that we think that the racism is only against blacks! in 1900 the white population in the world was 35% of whites.. now, white population is only a 8%.. THIS IS A WHITE GENOCIDE..
If you do not believe it, its for the propaganda that they put in your head
I do think the authorities were right in arresting her as there would have been so much uproar had she not been arrested due to the popular nature of the video. I do agree that labelling them is not the way to progress as it helps in no way. We are telling them its wrong to label people you don't know then doing it exactly the same thing. Education is the way forward to changing people's narrow minded views in my opinion.
OK here's the thing (as I view it): racism will never go away, it is a natural instinct to fear that which is different from yourself and to ask people to set aside their fears is a tall order indeed. I think that in order to lessen racism we have to show racists, rather than tell or ask, that a person is a person is a person, no matter what color or culture, that we are not different from each other in the slightest; each of us feels, wants, needs the same basic things.
No words, no matter how evil, should be censored. Words are the seeds and trunks of ideas, to maintain balance, all ideas must be allowed to the table. There is no heaven without hell, good without bad, joy without sadness. I like you oranges - remember fullywoolly? I feel ur change, I like ur capacity for change, though, suspect like me you are wary of the rhetoric: "Those who don't believe in anything will believe anything". Cheers
That being said, ur zone is ur zone man. Invasive.
Also you're talking out of your ass because there's no model to demonstrate that this integration you love so much works
But there are countless examples of tragic outcomes
These arguments of yours are far from rational , they're just feelings and in most cases it's just the desire of people to view themselves as multi-cultural they inexplicably equate this with integrity
They can't clearly identify any advantages of racial integration, I'd like for you to attempt it preferably on video
I have to disagree with you saying that 'TramLady' didn't hurt anyone. I think everyone who saw what happened that day was hurt. As were the 8 million people who saw it online. Some of us were ashamed to share a race with her, some of us were ashamed of our own ethnicities because we are the "interlopers" that she spoke of, and others of us were damaged irreparably because (race excluded here) we'd never been exposed to any type of racism and began to believe what she was saying.
Well she was clearly causing discomfort, so I can see the argument in favour of arrest, but this is coming from a guy who things that rudeness should be illegal. Have you seen Miles Dyer's video on this topic? I think he hits the nail on the head. In all honesty though, I don't think this problem will be 'solved'. I think it's more likely that given our increased connectivity through the internet and social media, the problem will simply go away as people become less and less segregated.
I think the one thing people really have to think about is whether they would want to be treated in that way if they took the time to learn a language in order to go and work and live in another country. It's a simple point. Yes, immigration is a problem as the country is likely to have overpopulation problems, BUT, there are people who have come to Britain from other nationalities and have benefited communities in ways that SOME (not all) people with these views haven't even aspired to.
I feel while the women has every right to say how she feels (Not that I feel she is correct.) she deserved to be arrested. Not for the things she said but the fact she started a verbal fight in a public place. Having such a conversation should be done in a more respeful manner to the people around you. There is also the fact that the person she was talking to had no way of escaping the conflict.
No, she shouldn't have been arrested, her views are shared by millions and their views need to be heard. even if middle class liberals don't share them.
When we start sensoring speech, then we start giving people power to control what we can and cannot say. We must be careful because if we give people/governments that power, it could be one day be used against you when you have important issues that need to be addressed through different forms of oral and written speech.
Wow, I accidently added this channel when I became obsessed with merlin. I didn't even get on youtube until I became obssessed with Merlin. But now, I think it's awesome this type of conversation is taking place. Since I'm America and ironically black, I think it's absolutely awful this woman was arrested for these actions. I've been talked quite worse by individuals, and I'm sure the reverse has happened to white people. This is a freedom I hold dear and needs to be protected.
The video even the original video of her comments seems incomplete. Why did she start yelling like this on the tram in the first place? Everyone is passing judgement one way or the other and it seems the entire story is never actually heard! Sure some people denounce what she said while others champion the cause, but is seems incomplete as is. Maybe someone insulted the British people and that pissed her off. Maybe she just started shouting for no reason. We don't know!
@boddah92108 Regardless of why she started yelling, it's not acceptable to say to someone 'You ain't British! You're black!' and everything else. That's why there's such an uproar about this incident. Fine, you don't agree with immigration etc, you have your reasons. But there's a way of expressing your views and provoking people isn't the way to tackle such a sensitive issue.
That's so sad! Racism is huge in America. Interracial fights break out on public transport all the time. I thought it was just an American problem but I guess not.
YOUR COUNTRY IS MOST CERTAINLY N O T better off than it was in the past-- and all of Europe is in GRAVE danger. YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH and in less than 200 years the white population will be wiped from the face of the map, because of puppet men like you. Do you realize that you have been CONDITIOED to think and act like you do???
TRAM racist suspect Emma West was remanded in custody for her own protection until December 6 after it emerged she had received death threats.(Video on my Channel)
Using Rap & Poetry, I fought back against family racism towards my mixed race daughter.
Crown court then banned that poetry.
First ever British Rap-Poet to be given a.. "5 year Rap & Poetry ban" (2009-2014)
Its not political correctness 'gone mad', it's called manners. Okay she doesn't seem as though she's been taught any. But even if you're having a shitty day, addressing a stranger in such a way isn't aceptable. Everyone on that train has the right to travel in peace, and judging by the reaction of the guy behind her, she's clearly disturbing that. And is lucky that what she was saying didn't lead to violence. She definately should have been arrested, to give an example to society.
From their perspective, a changing world has caused disruptions in their lives. The education system has failed them as children, their familes have often failed them, along with society at large that has ignored them and has failed to focus on inclusion. The white working class in many places no longer has traditional work. I believe that they aspirational immigrant groups and see a lack of perceived assimilation. Education, societal integration, and frank and open communication are needed.
@spyteandmalice I'm sure few to many can change but there will always be that one person who is entitled to their opinions/beliefs. Could we change ALL of them?
TRAM racist suspect Emma West was remanded in custody for her own protection until December 6 after it emerged she had received death threats.(Video on my Channel)
Using Rap & Poetry, I fought back against family racism towards my mixed race daughter.
Crown court then banned that poetry.
First ever British Rap-Poet to be given a.. "5 year Rap & Poetry ban" (2009-2014)
Peace! Allah says in the Holy Quran: "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."(Quran,49:13 )
One of the things I find most distressing about this is the lack of reaction. People only start trying to talk back after about a minute, and even then, only 2 people actually said anything. I'm not even going to be self-righteous and say I would have said something, because tbh I probably would've been terrified and would have stared at my shoes. But the one thing that everyone can take from this is that we need to be an example, stand up to this sort of thing and just not let it go unnoticed.
please dont be offended by my coment jazza about you being the dick off the advert lol I didnt mean it i was saying it to illustrate a point not to have a pop at u I hope u understand
I think people were so outraged because they've never seen and/or experienced racism first hand. I ought to say, I wasn't surprised at all.
As for the child on her lap, I'm sure that's (sort of) an image that made her the way she is today. Maybe, she grew up in a household full of racist people. And her son is probably going to act, think and talk the same way as his mother. Which is sad.
I'm not saying I excuse her behavior but, people like her are going to continue to exist. I can't change
@Ailacake that's so true. it's a vicious cycle, and she probably did grow up in a racist household, and that family probably became racist back when racism was okay.
but i think that we CAN change people like this. I think you're wrong to dismiss their potential to be all-accepting. we just need to find ways to open their minds and help them to learn empathy. we can't just let people like that off the hook.
@RayTheGmr ,Peace! Allah says in the Holy Quran: "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."(Quran,49:13 )
Sorry...you cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre with ought being arrested. There is no question that this woman disturbed the peace and her right to freedom of speech does not in fact trump my right to ride on public transportation without being racially abused. Sorry, but freedom of speech necessarily has to have limitations.
She should absolutely have been arrested. Her words and her demeanour clearly represented a threat to the other passengers and her behaviour amounted to a verbal assault on the other passengers, particularly the other children that had to listen to such violent language. There are laws on the books of the UK to prevent this sort of thing - the laws were not invented to deal with this particular woman. Freedom of speech has limitations - the obvious example being that you cannot yell Fire in a
A very thoughtful video! American, here, probably not appropriate for me to make many comments, given U.S.'s horrible history of racism . Repeating what some person on American TV said. A lot of this increase in racial tension seen, not only in the the UK, but in many western European nations MAY have some ties to the economic insecurities present in all nations today. The scariest part of this is that it is reminiscent of tensions in an economically depressed Germany of the 1930's.
@awreslr2 Thanks, I agree that economic uncertainty is probably a large factor in the equation, that's what fuels all the 'immigrants coming over here and taking our jobs' comments. Immigration has always been prevalent in the UK, and an important part of the economy, it is current social trends that has put them in the spotlight.
I'm of the opinion that my rights end where yours begin. She has every right to speak her mind but once it begins to impose on others then that's where it should end. I don't know if arresting her was the right way to go because even though she it is hate speech I don't know if it was necessarily persuading others to do any violent crimes towards others (like a hate group would). Then again it was quite a lucky situation that it didn't escalate further so I'm a bit torn over her arrest.
@maggiehanna Someone below mentioned that the fact she was in a tram where others were forced to be in close proximity to her is a factor in her imposing upon other people. I also find it interesting that she was only arrested after the video was put up, no one called the police on the tram.
@Saaduk92 dude if this chick was a muslim cleric that rant would have been constreud on the news as a call to arms mate. already this batshit crazy probably drunk fruitcake of a woman has nationalist followers its disgraceful
From my limited understanding of the law I think that her arrest was excessive. However, my ethics make me think her actions are shameful, especially in the presence of the child. It is equivalent to a scene out of the NAPCAN "Children See. Children Do." advertisement.
@rhymingwithoranges Laws like "disturbing the peace" are deliberately ambiguous. Though, honestly, I think that the legal consequences of this woman's actions are the smallest part of the problem; It's nearly inconceivable that a middle-aged person living in a developed and modern country can express and maintain opinions like that.
Parli italiano Jazza? Che e un libro interessante su la tua liberia. Parlo poco italiano. Scrivio meglio che posso dire perche e difficile. I find tram lady annoying. She sounds like a person from the southern US. I don't feel like she should have been arrested. I think she should have had an officer at her house to give her a stern warning b/c I don't think she does this on a regular basis. She wasn't a neo nazi. She's probably a mildly racist woman who had a horrible day & dealt w/it badly.
@mavinajfan Non posso parlare italiano molto bene perche solo ho fatto un GCSE. It's an old dictionary I don't use much any more. That's an interesting response. Do officers still do house calls like that? In terms of her circumstances, she probably got on the tram, got a bit freaked out that she was the only white person (probably not a situation she is used to) and that is her defense mechanism. Still doesn't excuse it though.
@rhymingwithoranges I don't think it excuses it either. I know officers have made house calls for domestic disturbances but in my ideal world, that's what would have happened. Nobody should have outbursts like that I think I'd like to believe though that nobody really thinks like that but I know they do. I don't really understand racism myself. It's improved since the 50's but this video just shows us that there still is ignorance in the world and makes us think How can we change it?
@mavinajfan it's the difference between prejudice and discrimination. the two are both under the umbrella racism now stay with me here cause it ilustrates my point lol discrimination I believe can count in this case cause she is depriving passengers their right to travel in piece, acting upon a preconception is fundamentally wrong and must be stamped out. prejudice is a belief that another culture is inferior or somehow wrong because of the fact they are different to u thats your porogative
You have the right to free speech and the right to suffer from the consequences of your word choice. Once you begin to beat down on other people you gain your right of those consequences.
@Cadisawi Canada is meant to officially be the most multicultural I think, but those kind of nations are everywhere in the developed world. If you're a rich country with prospects, you attract immigration. It has always been like that.
I don't think she should've been arrested. I completely disagree with her and it's a miracle it didn't escalate to violence but if we went around arresting everyone who said something stupid, ignorant or hurtful, the prisons wouldn't be able to function. It's a shame her child has to grow up with such a disgraceful mother but it's really not a police matter. As you said, cultural integration takes time. It's more or less her right to say whatever racist filth comes to her empty mind.
England would have hate speech laws would they not, and of course there is always child endangerment. They will have come up with at least dozen charges if this ever gets to court, no. A student of law would probably come up with a dozen or so off the top of their head. Even if she is eventually released without charge, you absolutely must arrest people in this situation, MUST.
@h3operations But does this count as hate speech. She isn't being persuasive, not telling people to be violent etc. It is literally just a rant. Yes it was offensive, but I still don't think any concrete law has been breached apart from disturbing the peace, which is a dodgy law BECAUSE it can apply to so many situations.
@rhymingwithoranges I get what you're saying I do but what she said on that tram was very clearly aimed at the people on the tram. Now if I where to stand on a platform of a trainstation with you shouting at the air "look it's that dickhead from the insurance advert what a fucking tool" lol I would be removed and rightly so
@rhymingwithoranges I think there is a line and the fact that she was "alone" in her opinion in that environment makes you more right on that point than I am, but my principle point was she needed a little shake up. In an ideal world we could address this sort of thing the way it needs to be addressed. But in this world, the rolled up newspaper must suffice. The better example shown by almost everybody around her may engender a little shame when she watches it. Cross fingers.
I don't think that her views are based on her social class standing, as many comments on the original video suggest. I know people from all walks of life who have similar views. Her views are based on poor knowledge, understanding and education of the subject of race. On a different matter, I think she is entitled to her free speech as much as I, someone who thinks the opposite, can speak myself. However, the way she went about voicing her views is something I do not agree with.
She shouldn't be arrested, not at all. She should be able to speak her mind, yes she was very racist and yes she was wrong, but arresting her isn't the right thing to do, she needs to be educated and given the right facts.
@xSpoosh educated? do me a favour she's a racist scum bag. she is the kind of nut case that makes me want to appologise to black people for being white. she's a disgrace
@snappingturtle101 But just brushing someone like that off is going to make those groups even more marginalised and create groups who are alienated from mainstream culture. I think @xSpoosh is right in that education is the key.
@xSpoosh I agree with you in theory but to be honest, what sort of education do you think could really help? Children obviously now have lessons on diversity and equality which is great and should happen more, but how can you educate a whole variety of racist adults? Because to be honest, educating just her isn't going to help - if the real problem is to be solved then we need to educate everyone, but is this really possible on such a large scale?
I also get so annoyed at that attitude "my britain's F**K ALL" first of all because she's Implying it was once this greaat nation when we used to draw lines down africa with a bloody ruler and secondly because she implies she speaks for me. She does not speak for nor does she speak for anyone I wish to know, free speach doesn't cover her threat of violence towards the lady who confronted her and then she said "I'll f**king do you" or how dare you I cant make it out. if so my appologies lol
@snappingturtle101 That's exactly why I feel embarrassed. I feel like she feels she is speaking for me, which she isn't. I'm not sure she threatens violence. I couldn't make it out.
as you said jazza she is a syptom of the condition not the condition itself but she is also one of the many causes of it, as you can see she is holding in her arms a kid presumably hers who she will bring up to believe that drivel
As voltaire said "I disaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" That lady absolutlely has the right to say whatever she likes it is after all a free country we live in. That being said the passengers on that tram have a right to travel in peace without some crazy woman snearing "what's this country come to? a load of F**KING black people and a load of F**KING polish?" I'm fairly sure abuse isnt covered under free speach.
@rhymingwithoranges on a slight side note its never actually been proven voltaire actually said that he has been credited with it but its bever been found in any of his writtings lol I just think its an awesome quote and encapsulates my entire world view lol what your saying is utter bollocks but you're entitled to your opininion and I'd defend that right with my life lol. just thought I'd add the disclaimer before smart arses point it out first lol
The debate this video has caused in your country is thus only incidentally linked to the insulting behaviour of this woman, it's actually about collectively aware bad conscience. I'm not sure that racialism and xenophobia are conceptually so very far apart.
@rhymingwithoranges I think in Britain there is a pandora's box full of unresolved issues which I view mainly psychologically. The empire still lurks untreated in the collective unconscious and colonial attitudes are still present in manners I could illustrate but which would be offthread. In Germany we live with the horrors of our past and confront them daily. Britain had no holocaust, true, but its colonialism was no walk in the park and has not been confronted.
A significant proportion of your politicians refuse to work with other nations at eyelevel. As rightwing Republicans in the US have a problem with the UN (which they see as beneath them) so Tories look down on their EU colleagues. This attitude transfers "osmotically" to ordinary citizens who become a mirror for political leaders, one in which (as often with mirrors) they inwardly dislike what they see. Unable to state this, they victimise such citizens vicariously.
@Marcomanseckisax Can her views really be linked that directly to politicians' view [points. I don't think there has been blatant racism in mainstream politics since powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
@rhymingwithoranges not really "directly" in the sense of following, more through a prevalent atmosphere of general behaviour and also example - "if they act like that so will I". Politicians are leaders, sportsmen/-women also enter this category.
@Chrisindapurplehouse They are also now members of the EDL. It scares me that they genuinely believe that they are doing the country a service by acting like that.
I can't comment on the arrest until I know what they charged her with! I assume "breach of the peace", maybe "incitement to racial hatred" (is that an offence in the UK?), whatever. Both only show up the inadequacies of the authorities, who are reacting after the fact. Much worse than that is my suspicion that this unfortunate woman is being scapegoated by the British establishment in projection of its own deeply rooted xenophobia. (...)
With rights come responsibilities. Yes, she has the right to feel the way she does, and yes she has the right to voice her opinion, but she acted irresponsibly as her actions could have caused violence therefore I think it was right to arrest her. Although I believe she is ignorant, that isn't the main issue, but the lack of understanding of other people.
@rhymingwithoranges I do think people can change if they want to and have the opportunity to...we shouldn't just give up on people and label them as morons because they don't have our values. That sounded much more patronising than I wanted it to! :L
I think that you were wise to point out that this woman is a symptom or a product of the problem and not the problem. This deep well of anger that she expresses is troubling. We cannot forget that this anger can lead to 7/7 to the slaughter of the young in Norway, to the bombing of a building Oklahoma City, USA, and to countless endless ethnic conflicts around the world. I think that the solution lies in hearing the anger and addressing the pain of those who feel they are being displaced.
@kramkatz But often their requests involve the disruption of other people's lives. How can they have their views changed? Do they need to have their views changed?
I really don't think it was warrant for arrest, she is a bigot and an asshole, but she was utilizing her free speech. In britain they are calling for her to be arrested because she did some shouting on the bus, but over in america they are fighting against protesters being arrested for camping out in tents, displaying signs and complaining against the government. So, while I agree with the sentiment of arresting her, I don't agree with the real life repercussions of it.
I only have two things to say. 1) I feel awful for the little boy. 2) Yes, those things she said were absolutely awful and NO race should get treatment like that. However, when white people are bashed it's taken far too lightly rather than when another race is bashed. An African American can call a white person a negative name and people will look the other way, but if it's vice versa, all hell will break loose. That isn't right. Guess what? We ALL evolved from Africa. Let's get over race.
@jenjen5678 I have grown up in the UK and never been discriminated against according to my race. My best friend, who is of Indian decent, has. We grew up in the same area and went to the same school. Abuse against white people does happen, but I believe much less.
When we learned about freedom of speech my teacher explained that you can say what you like, as long as it isn't endangering anyone (i.e. yelling "fire!" in a theater) or infringing on other people's rights. The situation could have easily turned violent, and by spewing this hatred everywhere, the woman was infringing on everyone else's right to a comfortable and safe train ride. She's entitled to her opinion, but shouting it on a train where it's impossible for people to get away is just wrong.
@ErinMeetsWorld Everone seems agreed that she should not have said it on a tram where people do not have the ability to get away. What is she were to do this in a public place, like a park?
so what you're saying is that we should simply point the finger of blame on political parties pushing an agenda for immigration policies? Responsibility for educating oneself is on the individual. She is a product of the society, we all are, but she is also an adult, completely accountable for inciting racism.
As a white male, I think you cannot be completely objective.
@realism18 you know its funny- in America in the 1980's the RIGHT took this word QUEER and they called anyone a QUEER who didn't believe in THEIR values. NOW the LEFT has taken this word RACISM and accusses anyone who doesn't believe in their values of being RACIST.
@adamcaul Anecdotal examples are inadequate. Please provide ONE example in the reported media of someone on the left calling someone on the right racist for not agreeing with them.
@realism18 I am not saying that at all. I brought up political parties because people who hold these views are too often brushed off by mainstream politicians and not listened to, they are regarded as not having a valid opinion. That is not the way to win them round. Yes, education is down to the individual, but the state provides us with education. I approached this as a reporter, not as a white male and believe I am more than capable of being objective, thank you.
You are a typical British man. You once ruled the world but now you are EVEN losing your OWN ISLAND because you have no balls, No honer and no PRIDE in who you are.
When two or more people own something, its not legal or moral for one person to GIVE it away. Really, I mean think about what your saying, do you give away your car or clothes to people who demand them? Do you give away your body because you had no say into being born with it?? You can't just give away your land and home and culture to anyone who wants it, or you wont have a home, land or culture left. WHO IS BRAIN WASHING THE ENGLISH???????????
@adamcaul In the video I said I was very proud of where I come from, I just might not be proud of the same ideas that you associate with the UK. I do not believe my island is lost, this country is socially in a much better place than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
This is what a lot of areas in England are like now for anyone other than other English people. Even me, as a Scotsman, found a lot of racially charged and malicious comments coming my way on a night out in London. A lot of England is not a very welcome place for "Johnny Foreigner" and you can thank the Daily Mail for it.
@rhymingwithoranges Those kind of views ARE becomeing the norm in Cameron's Britain/London...you can thank the Tories for it...it's only going to push me and the rest of the Scots towards the only honest party (SNP) which, imo, is the best thing for Scotland (They balanced the books since they came into service in 07 only to be brought down by Cameron & co) we should distance ourselves as much as we can from the corrupt halls of Westminster & eventually gain our independence.
Well, there's something to be said for the idea of defending freedom of speech even if you don't like what's being said, but at the same time, a lot of what she said could be classified as hate speech, which isn't protected (at least in the US). It's certainly not okay for her to be so racist and it's definitely admirable to go after the people who cause this kind of thought... but at the same time, I think it toes the line when you tell someone they're not allowed to say ignorant things.
There is no such thing as being a victim of political correctness. All things, including political correctness can be extremified, but it isn't 'Political correctness gone mad' being educated in a world where knowledge is so available, and using correct terminology. There isn't any real excuse to be otherwise (the woman featured in the video being a prime example of someone thinking only white equals British, she is an example xenophobia and ignorance, not Caucasian perception)
I agree that she is a product of her environment, but I don't think you can absolve the "tram lady" of all moral responsibility as you seem to have done. I think it is right that she was arrested for inciting racial hatred and hopefully this sets a precedent for the future.
@bansribb I may be contradicting myself a bit here, seeing as I made a video about her, but I simply think she is not what should be debated and is not the subject that needs to be addressed if we want to change things.
@rhymingwithoranges I get that you are saying that the fact that she has these opinions is the result of our society and we should question why xenophobia is so close to the surface of it.
However you did say "Let me know, do you guys think she should have been arested?"
I guess I choose to respond to this because I was, and still am, hurt by that video and this was the only part I felt I could respond to rationally. Hopefully I'll be able to better contribute to the next discussion :)
To quote Stephen Fry; " 'I am offended by that.' Well so - fucking - what?"
The point isn't that she swore or that she was racist, for she has a right to free speech. The problem is that she was on a tram, i.e. where other people couldn't get away. Liberty should be absolute where it doesn't infringe on other people's liberties, and here it does.
Something should not be outlawed just because one disagrees with it, everything must be justified in its restrictions.
I don't believe she should have been arrested. Her shocking words have made her enough of a public villain already - those who know about the video know, without her being arrested, that she was unspeakably rude. I don't think this situation should be made too complicated, in the sense that the video alone speaks for the horrible racism that some people believe
I think that she should have been arrested, I believe that she could have caused something really bad and it's amazing nothing happened and that nobody got hurt. It was awful and I didn't like watching the video. She is so ignorant. It's just shocking to think that some people think the way she does. Also when I watched it I just felt bad for the child, He didn't even seem phased by the fact that his mother was yelling and being so horrible.
@cazxpenguin I agree with most of what you are saying, but can her ignorance really be warrant for an arrest? She said some awful things, but she didn't harm anyone. All she was doing was expressing her (granted horribly racist) comments in a loud manner on a bus. I have walked passed black men in costume screaming about white men being the downfall in times square. I think the major reason for the worlds anger is the resonance from when whites were still extremely and violently racist.
I think the arrest is valid in this case only because she was provoking other people on the tram and Jazza is quite right that it is just down to luck that this didnt escalate to violence. The right to freedom of speach is of course importent and we have to be very careful not to abuse the "breach of the peace law" which is often done but in this perticular case she was clearly provoking and agrivating agrivating other people in a public space by using violent language.
the content of the video is pretty sickening, i'm british-asian (indian) and have had my fair share of sly remarks and "paki" comments thrown at me but have never been subjected to such gut-curling abuse. to be frank the black women was incredibly tolerant to not just punch her in the face. but really everything you said in this video is right, i don't defend her in any way, but this women isn't the problem she's a product of media bombardment, political `grouping` and lack of education.
I think your freedoms (press, speech, right to bear arms etc) extend to the point where your choices start affecting other people. She has the right to feel however she wants and talk about it in her own home, but when she started yelling racist comments, she left freedoms behind and entered the realm of verbal abuse. She should have been arrested, and doing that in front of a child is just wrong on so many levels.
@isaac78russell I agree! She has the right to express her opinions, but she was arrested for a racially aggravated public order offence for disturbing the peace. Additionally, physical violence is unacceptable, but so is verbal violence. She was verbally violent on that tram, and that's cause enough for arrest, or at least a police warning in my opinion.
after watching this video and reading the article i agree that being arrested was a bit much. I understand that she was expressing her opinions however i think that she didn't handle the situation well. Instead of being civilised she instead decided to shout and swear. The fact that there was younger children, even her own child on the tram having to listen to that sort of language made it worse. I believe that people are entitled to their own opinions but there's different ways to voice them.
You might want to arrest her for verbally assaulting people, but not for her opinions. Bigotry is usually just misplaced frustration for the disempowerment people feel in their own lives. You can't get a job because immigrants have taken them all, this neighbourhood wasn't violent until X group showed up etc. It is the situations which create perceived (or actual) imbalance that need to be addressed to end discrimination.
Why do you say that part of you feels ashamed at being white, because of this? Just because she's white, it [obviously] doesn't mean that everyone white is like that, and everyone who has common sense knows this. It's like saying that, because a guy with brown hair murders someone, that you're ashamed to have brown hair... it just doesn't make sense. Know what I'm saying?
@rhymingwithoranges But isn't this sort of feeling giving her power? Of course, I totally understand what you mean and do feel the 'please don't think I'm the same as her because I'm white' feeling, but I don't think I should - the main point coming from these discussions is that race shouldn't be an issue anywhere. We should not feel ashamed to be associated with her because we are white any more than I would be ashamed to be associated with her because I live in London, or if I had brown hair.
I don't think she should have been arrested at all. I mean, sure she was rude, BUT there are worse crimes than causing offense and hurt feelings (such as physical harm, for example). She's not really worth the time and money to be arrested.
Freedom of speech is necessary no matter what is said. Society changes, but to limit freedom of speech would never end in our favor. Decades ago in the US the opposite of this video was true; with the people speaking against equality. The majority wanted to limit them, but rights protected that. We must never limit the rights of the people.
...this is a tempest in a teacup...in the US we truly have freedom of speech, we don't play or delude ourselves that we do...getting arrested? in an already overcrowded prison system? totally insane....out trams have daily shoot outs and stabbings-much worse than some provocative words which she has a right to say as those have a right to ignore....people are not robots programmed to think and act the same, get over it....
From my United States perspective I feel like she shouldn't be arrested. By arresting her you are saying that you can arrest anyone who verbalizes views that you do not agree with. From there you could arrest protesters for simply saying how they feel; be it "right" or "wrong" Tram Lady was just protesting on a local tram. As I see it, she shouldn't be arrested. Yet, if this had escalated past verbal "protest" (arguably abuse) then yes please arrest her.
She makes me absolutely sick. I am a British Asian and I just can't stand to hear anything she says. I do think she needed to be arrested; she was, as you said, provocative and clearly hateful - and to me arresting her sends a clear message that her attitude cannot be tolerated. On the matter of where her racism has stemmed from, it may well be because of the attitudes to working class white people, who feel neglected by the government. But nothing excuses anything she said.
As a black british male, I feel she should be free to express her freedom of speech and I will defend her right to do so. I do however feel she should've been arrested for disorderly conduct however.
I think you're right that her arrest was a wise idea due to the provocative nature of her comments. However I think it should be a short arrest for that same reason as while she had cruel intent she didn't actually do anything.
Indeed freedom of speech is an important thing to have and while I think this woman is an idiot that freedom does apply to her too. However there is a time and place which this was neither.
If she wasn't arrested the problem would have escalated, she needs to be made an example of and if that means arresting her then so be it. Sadly she'll be one of thousands in this country who share her views. It's all just an immensely sad situation for society in Britain.
Maybe she shouldn't have been arrested, as you said there was no violence, however I'm glad something was done because in this day and age, being racist and acting the way she did is disgusting and unacceptable!
@wesleysonic How would that help? It doesn't change the way people think, nor does it change our history, which leads to a lot of this racism. I'm honestly curious here.
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why people think "Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, White countries for EVERYONE"??
THIS ISN'T EQUALITY! THIS IS ANTI-WHITE RACISM!
The government washed our brain so much that we think that the racism is only against blacks! in 1900 the white population in the world was 35% of whites.. now, white population is only a 8%.. THIS IS A WHITE GENOCIDE..
If you do not believe it, its for the propaganda that they put in your head
Candy77Green 11 hours ago
Your'e ashamed to be british?? smh
gnomemaster456 1 month ago
You are more close to the truth but still beating around the bush.
Im not criticizing you i know that freedom of speech is over.
Ducky888888 1 month ago
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Using Rap & Poetry, I fought back against family racism towards my mixed race daughter. Crown court then banned that rap & poetry.
First ever British Rap-Poet to be given a "5 year Rap & Poetry ban"
(2009-2014) Official Court Papers Video on my channel.
#FamilyRacism #Censorship #Injustice
Support my fight against racism & censorship by subscribing to this channel & following me on twitter @donhonki
Thanks.
New video uploaded "Why Did Crown Court Censor My Poetry & Rap Lyrics????"
TheBannedPoet 1 month ago
MY TRAM EXPERIENCE IN FRANCE i want to know has he beeen arrested
KILLWRONGDOERS 1 month ago
I do think the authorities were right in arresting her as there would have been so much uproar had she not been arrested due to the popular nature of the video. I do agree that labelling them is not the way to progress as it helps in no way. We are telling them its wrong to label people you don't know then doing it exactly the same thing. Education is the way forward to changing people's narrow minded views in my opinion.
RainbowGymShoes 1 month ago
OK here's the thing (as I view it): racism will never go away, it is a natural instinct to fear that which is different from yourself and to ask people to set aside their fears is a tall order indeed. I think that in order to lessen racism we have to show racists, rather than tell or ask, that a person is a person is a person, no matter what color or culture, that we are not different from each other in the slightest; each of us feels, wants, needs the same basic things.
ThoughtsBelow 2 months ago
No words, no matter how evil, should be censored. Words are the seeds and trunks of ideas, to maintain balance, all ideas must be allowed to the table. There is no heaven without hell, good without bad, joy without sadness. I like you oranges - remember fullywoolly? I feel ur change, I like ur capacity for change, though, suspect like me you are wary of the rhetoric: "Those who don't believe in anything will believe anything". Cheers
That being said, ur zone is ur zone man. Invasive.
ConspiracyLoon 2 months ago
Also you're talking out of your ass because there's no model to demonstrate that this integration you love so much works
But there are countless examples of tragic outcomes
These arguments of yours are far from rational , they're just feelings and in most cases it's just the desire of people to view themselves as multi-cultural they inexplicably equate this with integrity
They can't clearly identify any advantages of racial integration, I'd like for you to attempt it preferably on video
hockeytruth 2 months ago
Hey stoop I think everyone has seen the clip by now
Only pea brains think she should be arrested.
hockeytruth 2 months ago
I believe that you have the right to express your opinions, but not at the expense of someone else's feelings.
GwendolynRaine 2 months ago
I have to disagree with you saying that 'TramLady' didn't hurt anyone. I think everyone who saw what happened that day was hurt. As were the 8 million people who saw it online. Some of us were ashamed to share a race with her, some of us were ashamed of our own ethnicities because we are the "interlopers" that she spoke of, and others of us were damaged irreparably because (race excluded here) we'd never been exposed to any type of racism and began to believe what she was saying.
GwendolynRaine 2 months ago
Well she was clearly causing discomfort, so I can see the argument in favour of arrest, but this is coming from a guy who things that rudeness should be illegal. Have you seen Miles Dyer's video on this topic? I think he hits the nail on the head. In all honesty though, I don't think this problem will be 'solved'. I think it's more likely that given our increased connectivity through the internet and social media, the problem will simply go away as people become less and less segregated.
OrgasmandTea 2 months ago in playlist More videos from rhymingwithoranges
I think the one thing people really have to think about is whether they would want to be treated in that way if they took the time to learn a language in order to go and work and live in another country. It's a simple point. Yes, immigration is a problem as the country is likely to have overpopulation problems, BUT, there are people who have come to Britain from other nationalities and have benefited communities in ways that SOME (not all) people with these views haven't even aspired to.
LIZZIEfication 2 months ago
I feel while the women has every right to say how she feels (Not that I feel she is correct.) she deserved to be arrested. Not for the things she said but the fact she started a verbal fight in a public place. Having such a conversation should be done in a more respeful manner to the people around you. There is also the fact that the person she was talking to had no way of escaping the conflict.
x0XHatredX0x 2 months ago
No, she shouldn't have been arrested, her views are shared by millions and their views need to be heard. even if middle class liberals don't share them.
aeronuk1 2 months ago
When we start sensoring speech, then we start giving people power to control what we can and cannot say. We must be careful because if we give people/governments that power, it could be one day be used against you when you have important issues that need to be addressed through different forms of oral and written speech.
gravesdv 2 months ago
Wow, I accidently added this channel when I became obsessed with merlin. I didn't even get on youtube until I became obssessed with Merlin. But now, I think it's awesome this type of conversation is taking place. Since I'm America and ironically black, I think it's absolutely awful this woman was arrested for these actions. I've been talked quite worse by individuals, and I'm sure the reverse has happened to white people. This is a freedom I hold dear and needs to be protected.
gravesdv 2 months ago
The video even the original video of her comments seems incomplete. Why did she start yelling like this on the tram in the first place? Everyone is passing judgement one way or the other and it seems the entire story is never actually heard! Sure some people denounce what she said while others champion the cause, but is seems incomplete as is. Maybe someone insulted the British people and that pissed her off. Maybe she just started shouting for no reason. We don't know!
boddah92108 2 months ago
@boddah92108 Regardless of why she started yelling, it's not acceptable to say to someone 'You ain't British! You're black!' and everything else. That's why there's such an uproar about this incident. Fine, you don't agree with immigration etc, you have your reasons. But there's a way of expressing your views and provoking people isn't the way to tackle such a sensitive issue.
fatso786 2 months ago
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That's so sad! Racism is huge in America. Interracial fights break out on public transport all the time. I thought it was just an American problem but I guess not.
missdivinestalls 2 months ago
PREVENTING GENOCIDE, especially of your own kind IS NOT FUTILE, its HONERALBE. WAKE UP!!!
WE NEED YOU TO WAKE UP. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TELL YOUR GRANDCHILDREN????????
tron2program 2 months ago
YOUR COUNTRY IS MOST CERTAINLY N O T better off than it was in the past-- and all of Europe is in GRAVE danger. YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH and in less than 200 years the white population will be wiped from the face of the map, because of puppet men like you. Do you realize that you have been CONDITIOED to think and act like you do???
tron2program 2 months ago
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TRAM racist suspect Emma West was remanded in custody for her own protection until December 6 after it emerged she had received death threats.(Video on my Channel)
Using Rap & Poetry, I fought back against family racism towards my mixed race daughter.
Crown court then banned that poetry.
First ever British Rap-Poet to be given a.. "5 year Rap & Poetry ban" (2009-2014)
#FamilyRacism #Censorship #Injustice
TheBannedPoet 2 months ago
Its not political correctness 'gone mad', it's called manners. Okay she doesn't seem as though she's been taught any. But even if you're having a shitty day, addressing a stranger in such a way isn't aceptable. Everyone on that train has the right to travel in peace, and judging by the reaction of the guy behind her, she's clearly disturbing that. And is lucky that what she was saying didn't lead to violence. She definately should have been arrested, to give an example to society.
MrNiftyTricks 2 months ago
From their perspective, a changing world has caused disruptions in their lives. The education system has failed them as children, their familes have often failed them, along with society at large that has ignored them and has failed to focus on inclusion. The white working class in many places no longer has traditional work. I believe that they aspirational immigrant groups and see a lack of perceived assimilation. Education, societal integration, and frank and open communication are needed.
kramkatz 2 months ago
@spyteandmalice I'm sure few to many can change but there will always be that one person who is entitled to their opinions/beliefs. Could we change ALL of them?
Ailacake 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
TRAM racist suspect Emma West was remanded in custody for her own protection until December 6 after it emerged she had received death threats.(Video on my Channel)
Using Rap & Poetry, I fought back against family racism towards my mixed race daughter.
Crown court then banned that poetry.
First ever British Rap-Poet to be given a.. "5 year Rap & Poetry ban" (2009-2014)
#FamilyRacism #Censorship #Injustice
TheBannedPoet 3 months ago
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Peace! Allah says in the Holy Quran: "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."(Quran,49:13 )
JediSuperWarrior 3 months ago
One of the things I find most distressing about this is the lack of reaction. People only start trying to talk back after about a minute, and even then, only 2 people actually said anything. I'm not even going to be self-righteous and say I would have said something, because tbh I probably would've been terrified and would have stared at my shoes. But the one thing that everyone can take from this is that we need to be an example, stand up to this sort of thing and just not let it go unnoticed.
aliceinwonderinc 3 months ago
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please dont be offended by my coment jazza about you being the dick off the advert lol I didnt mean it i was saying it to illustrate a point not to have a pop at u I hope u understand
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
Comment removed
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
*I can't change them. That's all I could say on the matter.
Ailacake 3 months ago
*I can't change them. That's all I have to say on the matter.. :D
(Thank you, YouTube for cutting me off. That was a lovely thing to do. :D)
Ailacake 3 months ago
I think people were so outraged because they've never seen and/or experienced racism first hand. I ought to say, I wasn't surprised at all.
As for the child on her lap, I'm sure that's (sort of) an image that made her the way she is today. Maybe, she grew up in a household full of racist people. And her son is probably going to act, think and talk the same way as his mother. Which is sad.
I'm not saying I excuse her behavior but, people like her are going to continue to exist. I can't change
Ailacake 3 months ago
@Ailacake that's so true. it's a vicious cycle, and she probably did grow up in a racist household, and that family probably became racist back when racism was okay.
but i think that we CAN change people like this. I think you're wrong to dismiss their potential to be all-accepting. we just need to find ways to open their minds and help them to learn empathy. we can't just let people like that off the hook.
spyteandmalice 3 months ago
I wish more people where as level headed as this guy, faith in humanity restored :')
RayTheGmr 3 months ago 7
@RayTheGmr aww, thanks. Just look at the comments on here, there are some very clever people in the world :)
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago 4
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@RayTheGmr ,Peace! Allah says in the Holy Quran: "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."(Quran,49:13 )
JediSuperWarrior 3 months ago
Sorry...you cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre with ought being arrested. There is no question that this woman disturbed the peace and her right to freedom of speech does not in fact trump my right to ride on public transportation without being racially abused. Sorry, but freedom of speech necessarily has to have limitations.
MaltingsSE1 3 months ago
She should absolutely have been arrested. Her words and her demeanour clearly represented a threat to the other passengers and her behaviour amounted to a verbal assault on the other passengers, particularly the other children that had to listen to such violent language. There are laws on the books of the UK to prevent this sort of thing - the laws were not invented to deal with this particular woman. Freedom of speech has limitations - the obvious example being that you cannot yell Fire in a
MaltingsSE1 3 months ago
A very thoughtful video! American, here, probably not appropriate for me to make many comments, given U.S.'s horrible history of racism . Repeating what some person on American TV said. A lot of this increase in racial tension seen, not only in the the UK, but in many western European nations MAY have some ties to the economic insecurities present in all nations today. The scariest part of this is that it is reminiscent of tensions in an economically depressed Germany of the 1930's.
awreslr2 3 months ago
@awreslr2 Thanks, I agree that economic uncertainty is probably a large factor in the equation, that's what fuels all the 'immigrants coming over here and taking our jobs' comments. Immigration has always been prevalent in the UK, and an important part of the economy, it is current social trends that has put them in the spotlight.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
I'm of the opinion that my rights end where yours begin. She has every right to speak her mind but once it begins to impose on others then that's where it should end. I don't know if arresting her was the right way to go because even though she it is hate speech I don't know if it was necessarily persuading others to do any violent crimes towards others (like a hate group would). Then again it was quite a lucky situation that it didn't escalate further so I'm a bit torn over her arrest.
maggiehanna 3 months ago
@maggiehanna Someone below mentioned that the fact she was in a tram where others were forced to be in close proximity to her is a factor in her imposing upon other people. I also find it interesting that she was only arrested after the video was put up, no one called the police on the tram.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
There's a fine line between freedom of speech and hate speech.
Saaduk92 3 months ago
@Saaduk92 Which does she fall under? She isn't persuading others, can it be seen as hate speech?
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@Saaduk92 dude if this chick was a muslim cleric that rant would have been constreud on the news as a call to arms mate. already this batshit crazy probably drunk fruitcake of a woman has nationalist followers its disgraceful
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
From my limited understanding of the law I think that her arrest was excessive. However, my ethics make me think her actions are shameful, especially in the presence of the child. It is equivalent to a scene out of the NAPCAN "Children See. Children Do." advertisement.
Siobhanasaurus 3 months ago
@Siobhanasaurus That's why I asked, it is a shady area this. The idea of being arrested for 'disturbing the peace' is very vague.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges Laws like "disturbing the peace" are deliberately ambiguous. Though, honestly, I think that the legal consequences of this woman's actions are the smallest part of the problem; It's nearly inconceivable that a middle-aged person living in a developed and modern country can express and maintain opinions like that.
Siobhanasaurus 2 months ago
Parli italiano Jazza? Che e un libro interessante su la tua liberia. Parlo poco italiano. Scrivio meglio che posso dire perche e difficile. I find tram lady annoying. She sounds like a person from the southern US. I don't feel like she should have been arrested. I think she should have had an officer at her house to give her a stern warning b/c I don't think she does this on a regular basis. She wasn't a neo nazi. She's probably a mildly racist woman who had a horrible day & dealt w/it badly.
mavinajfan 3 months ago
@mavinajfan Non posso parlare italiano molto bene perche solo ho fatto un GCSE. It's an old dictionary I don't use much any more. That's an interesting response. Do officers still do house calls like that? In terms of her circumstances, she probably got on the tram, got a bit freaked out that she was the only white person (probably not a situation she is used to) and that is her defense mechanism. Still doesn't excuse it though.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges I don't think it excuses it either. I know officers have made house calls for domestic disturbances but in my ideal world, that's what would have happened. Nobody should have outbursts like that I think I'd like to believe though that nobody really thinks like that but I know they do. I don't really understand racism myself. It's improved since the 50's but this video just shows us that there still is ignorance in the world and makes us think How can we change it?
mavinajfan 3 months ago
@mavinajfan it's the difference between prejudice and discrimination. the two are both under the umbrella racism now stay with me here cause it ilustrates my point lol discrimination I believe can count in this case cause she is depriving passengers their right to travel in piece, acting upon a preconception is fundamentally wrong and must be stamped out. prejudice is a belief that another culture is inferior or somehow wrong because of the fact they are different to u thats your porogative
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
You have the right to free speech and the right to suffer from the consequences of your word choice. Once you begin to beat down on other people you gain your right of those consequences.
LiveLoveSoccer17 3 months ago
What country do you think best represents a melting pot of the world?
Cadisawi 3 months ago
@Cadisawi Canada is meant to officially be the most multicultural I think, but those kind of nations are everywhere in the developed world. If you're a rich country with prospects, you attract immigration. It has always been like that.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
I don't think she should've been arrested. I completely disagree with her and it's a miracle it didn't escalate to violence but if we went around arresting everyone who said something stupid, ignorant or hurtful, the prisons wouldn't be able to function. It's a shame her child has to grow up with such a disgraceful mother but it's really not a police matter. As you said, cultural integration takes time. It's more or less her right to say whatever racist filth comes to her empty mind.
AbsentRadio 3 months ago
@AbsentRadio It is lucky the situation didn't escalate. It was something very stupid on her part.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
England would have hate speech laws would they not, and of course there is always child endangerment. They will have come up with at least dozen charges if this ever gets to court, no. A student of law would probably come up with a dozen or so off the top of their head. Even if she is eventually released without charge, you absolutely must arrest people in this situation, MUST.
h3operations 3 months ago
@h3operations But does this count as hate speech. She isn't being persuasive, not telling people to be violent etc. It is literally just a rant. Yes it was offensive, but I still don't think any concrete law has been breached apart from disturbing the peace, which is a dodgy law BECAUSE it can apply to so many situations.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges I get what you're saying I do but what she said on that tram was very clearly aimed at the people on the tram. Now if I where to stand on a platform of a trainstation with you shouting at the air "look it's that dickhead from the insurance advert what a fucking tool" lol I would be removed and rightly so
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges I think there is a line and the fact that she was "alone" in her opinion in that environment makes you more right on that point than I am, but my principle point was she needed a little shake up. In an ideal world we could address this sort of thing the way it needs to be addressed. But in this world, the rolled up newspaper must suffice. The better example shown by almost everybody around her may engender a little shame when she watches it. Cross fingers.
h3operations 3 months ago
I don't think that her views are based on her social class standing, as many comments on the original video suggest. I know people from all walks of life who have similar views. Her views are based on poor knowledge, understanding and education of the subject of race. On a different matter, I think she is entitled to her free speech as much as I, someone who thinks the opposite, can speak myself. However, the way she went about voicing her views is something I do not agree with.
JohnTalksToYou 3 months ago
She shouldn't be arrested, not at all. She should be able to speak her mind, yes she was very racist and yes she was wrong, but arresting her isn't the right thing to do, she needs to be educated and given the right facts.
xSpoosh 3 months ago
@xSpoosh educated? do me a favour she's a racist scum bag. she is the kind of nut case that makes me want to appologise to black people for being white. she's a disgrace
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
@snappingturtle101 But just brushing someone like that off is going to make those groups even more marginalised and create groups who are alienated from mainstream culture. I think @xSpoosh is right in that education is the key.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@xSpoosh I agree with you in theory but to be honest, what sort of education do you think could really help? Children obviously now have lessons on diversity and equality which is great and should happen more, but how can you educate a whole variety of racist adults? Because to be honest, educating just her isn't going to help - if the real problem is to be solved then we need to educate everyone, but is this really possible on such a large scale?
aliceinwonderinc 3 months ago
I also get so annoyed at that attitude "my britain's F**K ALL" first of all because she's Implying it was once this greaat nation when we used to draw lines down africa with a bloody ruler and secondly because she implies she speaks for me. She does not speak for nor does she speak for anyone I wish to know, free speach doesn't cover her threat of violence towards the lady who confronted her and then she said "I'll f**king do you" or how dare you I cant make it out. if so my appologies lol
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
@snappingturtle101 That's exactly why I feel embarrassed. I feel like she feels she is speaking for me, which she isn't. I'm not sure she threatens violence. I couldn't make it out.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
as you said jazza she is a syptom of the condition not the condition itself but she is also one of the many causes of it, as you can see she is holding in her arms a kid presumably hers who she will bring up to believe that drivel
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
@snappingturtle101 Not necessarily, if kids are educated properly.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
As voltaire said "I disaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" That lady absolutlely has the right to say whatever she likes it is after all a free country we live in. That being said the passengers on that tram have a right to travel in peace without some crazy woman snearing "what's this country come to? a load of F**KING black people and a load of F**KING polish?" I'm fairly sure abuse isnt covered under free speach.
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
@snappingturtle101 Voltaire was a lovely man. You're right, it is a fine line, but I'm still not sure if she crossed it.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges on a slight side note its never actually been proven voltaire actually said that he has been credited with it but its bever been found in any of his writtings lol I just think its an awesome quote and encapsulates my entire world view lol what your saying is utter bollocks but you're entitled to your opininion and I'd defend that right with my life lol. just thought I'd add the disclaimer before smart arses point it out first lol
snappingturtle101 3 months ago
The debate this video has caused in your country is thus only incidentally linked to the insulting behaviour of this woman, it's actually about collectively aware bad conscience. I'm not sure that racialism and xenophobia are conceptually so very far apart.
Marcomanseckisax 3 months ago
@Marcomanseckisax What do you mean by collectively bad conscience?
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges I think in Britain there is a pandora's box full of unresolved issues which I view mainly psychologically. The empire still lurks untreated in the collective unconscious and colonial attitudes are still present in manners I could illustrate but which would be offthread. In Germany we live with the horrors of our past and confront them daily. Britain had no holocaust, true, but its colonialism was no walk in the park and has not been confronted.
Marcomanseckisax 3 months ago
A significant proportion of your politicians refuse to work with other nations at eyelevel. As rightwing Republicans in the US have a problem with the UN (which they see as beneath them) so Tories look down on their EU colleagues. This attitude transfers "osmotically" to ordinary citizens who become a mirror for political leaders, one in which (as often with mirrors) they inwardly dislike what they see. Unable to state this, they victimise such citizens vicariously.
Marcomanseckisax 3 months ago
@Marcomanseckisax Can her views really be linked that directly to politicians' view [points. I don't think there has been blatant racism in mainstream politics since powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges not really "directly" in the sense of following, more through a prevalent atmosphere of general behaviour and also example - "if they act like that so will I". Politicians are leaders, sportsmen/-women also enter this category.
Marcomanseckisax 3 months ago
Those bastards on the tube are just fucking psychos kicking a guy in the face I hope the police catch them and throw the book at them
Chrisindapurplehouse 3 months ago
@Chrisindapurplehouse They are also now members of the EDL. It scares me that they genuinely believe that they are doing the country a service by acting like that.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
I can't comment on the arrest until I know what they charged her with! I assume "breach of the peace", maybe "incitement to racial hatred" (is that an offence in the UK?), whatever. Both only show up the inadequacies of the authorities, who are reacting after the fact. Much worse than that is my suspicion that this unfortunate woman is being scapegoated by the British establishment in projection of its own deeply rooted xenophobia. (...)
Marcomanseckisax 3 months ago
With rights come responsibilities. Yes, she has the right to feel the way she does, and yes she has the right to voice her opinion, but she acted irresponsibly as her actions could have caused violence therefore I think it was right to arrest her. Although I believe she is ignorant, that isn't the main issue, but the lack of understanding of other people.
snailfail 3 months ago
@snailfail Good point. Do you think someone like that can have their views changed?
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges I do think people can change if they want to and have the opportunity to...we shouldn't just give up on people and label them as morons because they don't have our values. That sounded much more patronising than I wanted it to! :L
snailfail 3 months ago
I think that you were wise to point out that this woman is a symptom or a product of the problem and not the problem. This deep well of anger that she expresses is troubling. We cannot forget that this anger can lead to 7/7 to the slaughter of the young in Norway, to the bombing of a building Oklahoma City, USA, and to countless endless ethnic conflicts around the world. I think that the solution lies in hearing the anger and addressing the pain of those who feel they are being displaced.
kramkatz 3 months ago in playlist More videos from rhymingwithoranges
@kramkatz But often their requests involve the disruption of other people's lives. How can they have their views changed? Do they need to have their views changed?
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
"The magic happens downstairs!" - Sorry but that made me think of something ENTIRELY different from what you actually meant! =P
LyallM94 3 months ago
I really don't think it was warrant for arrest, she is a bigot and an asshole, but she was utilizing her free speech. In britain they are calling for her to be arrested because she did some shouting on the bus, but over in america they are fighting against protesters being arrested for camping out in tents, displaying signs and complaining against the government. So, while I agree with the sentiment of arresting her, I don't agree with the real life repercussions of it.
EightTobiins 3 months ago
I only have two things to say. 1) I feel awful for the little boy. 2) Yes, those things she said were absolutely awful and NO race should get treatment like that. However, when white people are bashed it's taken far too lightly rather than when another race is bashed. An African American can call a white person a negative name and people will look the other way, but if it's vice versa, all hell will break loose. That isn't right. Guess what? We ALL evolved from Africa. Let's get over race.
jenjen5678 3 months ago
@jenjen5678 I have grown up in the UK and never been discriminated against according to my race. My best friend, who is of Indian decent, has. We grew up in the same area and went to the same school. Abuse against white people does happen, but I believe much less.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
When we learned about freedom of speech my teacher explained that you can say what you like, as long as it isn't endangering anyone (i.e. yelling "fire!" in a theater) or infringing on other people's rights. The situation could have easily turned violent, and by spewing this hatred everywhere, the woman was infringing on everyone else's right to a comfortable and safe train ride. She's entitled to her opinion, but shouting it on a train where it's impossible for people to get away is just wrong.
ErinMeetsWorld 3 months ago
@ErinMeetsWorld Everone seems agreed that she should not have said it on a tram where people do not have the ability to get away. What is she were to do this in a public place, like a park?
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
so what you're saying is that we should simply point the finger of blame on political parties pushing an agenda for immigration policies? Responsibility for educating oneself is on the individual. She is a product of the society, we all are, but she is also an adult, completely accountable for inciting racism.
As a white male, I think you cannot be completely objective.
realism18 3 months ago
@realism18 you know its funny- in America in the 1980's the RIGHT took this word QUEER and they called anyone a QUEER who didn't believe in THEIR values. NOW the LEFT has taken this word RACISM and accusses anyone who doesn't believe in their values of being RACIST.
adamcaul 3 months ago
@adamcaul Please provide ONE example.
JoelJoel321 3 months ago
@JoelJoel321 I lived it, saw it and heard it with my own ears dude.
adamcaul 3 months ago
@adamcaul Anecdotal examples are inadequate. Please provide ONE example in the reported media of someone on the left calling someone on the right racist for not agreeing with them.
JoelJoel321 3 months ago
@realism18 I am not saying that at all. I brought up political parties because people who hold these views are too often brushed off by mainstream politicians and not listened to, they are regarded as not having a valid opinion. That is not the way to win them round. Yes, education is down to the individual, but the state provides us with education. I approached this as a reporter, not as a white male and believe I am more than capable of being objective, thank you.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
You are a typical British man. You once ruled the world but now you are EVEN losing your OWN ISLAND because you have no balls, No honer and no PRIDE in who you are.
adamcaul 3 months ago
@adamcaul Pride in who you are doesn't mean being selfish with land just because you happened to e born on it.
pinkybob 3 months ago
When two or more people own something, its not legal or moral for one person to GIVE it away. Really, I mean think about what your saying, do you give away your car or clothes to people who demand them? Do you give away your body because you had no say into being born with it?? You can't just give away your land and home and culture to anyone who wants it, or you wont have a home, land or culture left. WHO IS BRAIN WASHING THE ENGLISH???????????
adamcaul 3 months ago
@adamcaul no. we will have a DIFFERENT culture.
pinkybob 3 months ago
@adamcaul Culture is not static, is is something that has always evolved. It is okay to be sentimental, but trying to turn back the clock is futile.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@adamcaul In the video I said I was very proud of where I come from, I just might not be proud of the same ideas that you associate with the UK. I do not believe my island is lost, this country is socially in a much better place than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
This is what a lot of areas in England are like now for anyone other than other English people. Even me, as a Scotsman, found a lot of racially charged and malicious comments coming my way on a night out in London. A lot of England is not a very welcome place for "Johnny Foreigner" and you can thank the Daily Mail for it.
Connelly90 3 months ago
@Connelly90 It's sad, and sometimes I worry that those kinds of views are becoming the norm.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges Those kind of views ARE becomeing the norm in Cameron's Britain/London...you can thank the Tories for it...it's only going to push me and the rest of the Scots towards the only honest party (SNP) which, imo, is the best thing for Scotland (They balanced the books since they came into service in 07 only to be brought down by Cameron & co) we should distance ourselves as much as we can from the corrupt halls of Westminster & eventually gain our independence.
Connelly90 3 months ago
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@Connelly90 ...that said "Let us be rid, of those bigots and fools, who will not let Scotland live and let live" - Roy Williamson (The Corries)
Connelly90 3 months ago
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Connelly90 3 months ago
Well, there's something to be said for the idea of defending freedom of speech even if you don't like what's being said, but at the same time, a lot of what she said could be classified as hate speech, which isn't protected (at least in the US). It's certainly not okay for her to be so racist and it's definitely admirable to go after the people who cause this kind of thought... but at the same time, I think it toes the line when you tell someone they're not allowed to say ignorant things.
fizzylimon 3 months ago
(1/2)
There is no such thing as being a victim of political correctness. All things, including political correctness can be extremified, but it isn't 'Political correctness gone mad' being educated in a world where knowledge is so available, and using correct terminology. There isn't any real excuse to be otherwise (the woman featured in the video being a prime example of someone thinking only white equals British, she is an example xenophobia and ignorance, not Caucasian perception)
Daniefab 3 months ago 3
I agree that she is a product of her environment, but I don't think you can absolve the "tram lady" of all moral responsibility as you seem to have done. I think it is right that she was arrested for inciting racial hatred and hopefully this sets a precedent for the future.
bansribb 3 months ago
@bansribb I may be contradicting myself a bit here, seeing as I made a video about her, but I simply think she is not what should be debated and is not the subject that needs to be addressed if we want to change things.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges I get that you are saying that the fact that she has these opinions is the result of our society and we should question why xenophobia is so close to the surface of it.
However you did say "Let me know, do you guys think she should have been arested?"
I guess I choose to respond to this because I was, and still am, hurt by that video and this was the only part I felt I could respond to rationally. Hopefully I'll be able to better contribute to the next discussion :)
bansribb 3 months ago
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Daniefab 3 months ago
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Daniefab 3 months ago
To quote Stephen Fry; " 'I am offended by that.' Well so - fucking - what?"
The point isn't that she swore or that she was racist, for she has a right to free speech. The problem is that she was on a tram, i.e. where other people couldn't get away. Liberty should be absolute where it doesn't infringe on other people's liberties, and here it does.
Something should not be outlawed just because one disagrees with it, everything must be justified in its restrictions.
FrankThePidgeon 3 months ago
@FrankThePidgeon Very good point that I have reiterated to other people, thanks :)
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
I don't believe she should have been arrested. Her shocking words have made her enough of a public villain already - those who know about the video know, without her being arrested, that she was unspeakably rude. I don't think this situation should be made too complicated, in the sense that the video alone speaks for the horrible racism that some people believe
jennierules 3 months ago
I think that she should have been arrested, I believe that she could have caused something really bad and it's amazing nothing happened and that nobody got hurt. It was awful and I didn't like watching the video. She is so ignorant. It's just shocking to think that some people think the way she does. Also when I watched it I just felt bad for the child, He didn't even seem phased by the fact that his mother was yelling and being so horrible.
cazxpenguin 3 months ago 11
@cazxpenguin I agree with most of what you are saying, but can her ignorance really be warrant for an arrest? She said some awful things, but she didn't harm anyone. All she was doing was expressing her (granted horribly racist) comments in a loud manner on a bus. I have walked passed black men in costume screaming about white men being the downfall in times square. I think the major reason for the worlds anger is the resonance from when whites were still extremely and violently racist.
EightTobiins 3 months ago
@cazxpenguin I am the same in that it scares me that these people still exist, and it scares me that maybe they are becoming more numerous.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
I prefer to call her "Pat Condells daughter" rather than "Tram lady"
PositiveTension505 3 months ago
I think the arrest is valid in this case only because she was provoking other people on the tram and Jazza is quite right that it is just down to luck that this didnt escalate to violence. The right to freedom of speach is of course importent and we have to be very careful not to abuse the "breach of the peace law" which is often done but in this perticular case she was clearly provoking and agrivating agrivating other people in a public space by using violent language.
thingy777 3 months ago
the content of the video is pretty sickening, i'm british-asian (indian) and have had my fair share of sly remarks and "paki" comments thrown at me but have never been subjected to such gut-curling abuse. to be frank the black women was incredibly tolerant to not just punch her in the face. but really everything you said in this video is right, i don't defend her in any way, but this women isn't the problem she's a product of media bombardment, political `grouping` and lack of education.
thesonicpaintbrush 3 months ago
Well yes people did get hurt and have been racially abused so shut up you prick.
renrawr 3 months ago
'Being a prick' should be a crime.
skarloeyable 3 months ago
I think your freedoms (press, speech, right to bear arms etc) extend to the point where your choices start affecting other people. She has the right to feel however she wants and talk about it in her own home, but when she started yelling racist comments, she left freedoms behind and entered the realm of verbal abuse. She should have been arrested, and doing that in front of a child is just wrong on so many levels.
isaac78russell 3 months ago 30
@isaac78russell I agree! She has the right to express her opinions, but she was arrested for a racially aggravated public order offence for disturbing the peace. Additionally, physical violence is unacceptable, but so is verbal violence. She was verbally violent on that tram, and that's cause enough for arrest, or at least a police warning in my opinion.
OMGitsSeppie 3 months ago
after watching this video and reading the article i agree that being arrested was a bit much. I understand that she was expressing her opinions however i think that she didn't handle the situation well. Instead of being civilised she instead decided to shout and swear. The fact that there was younger children, even her own child on the tram having to listen to that sort of language made it worse. I believe that people are entitled to their own opinions but there's different ways to voice them.
purplebob101010 3 months ago
You might want to arrest her for verbally assaulting people, but not for her opinions. Bigotry is usually just misplaced frustration for the disempowerment people feel in their own lives. You can't get a job because immigrants have taken them all, this neighbourhood wasn't violent until X group showed up etc. It is the situations which create perceived (or actual) imbalance that need to be addressed to end discrimination.
Drewxor 3 months ago
Why do you say that part of you feels ashamed at being white, because of this? Just because she's white, it [obviously] doesn't mean that everyone white is like that, and everyone who has common sense knows this. It's like saying that, because a guy with brown hair murders someone, that you're ashamed to have brown hair... it just doesn't make sense. Know what I'm saying?
theguymjp 3 months ago
@theguymjp I think he means hes ashamed to be associated with her behaviour and possibly the stereotypes that may be attached to him because of her.
XxaleyixX 3 months ago
@theguymjp see @XxaleyixX 's comment.
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago
@rhymingwithoranges But isn't this sort of feeling giving her power? Of course, I totally understand what you mean and do feel the 'please don't think I'm the same as her because I'm white' feeling, but I don't think I should - the main point coming from these discussions is that race shouldn't be an issue anywhere. We should not feel ashamed to be associated with her because we are white any more than I would be ashamed to be associated with her because I live in London, or if I had brown hair.
aliceinwonderinc 3 months ago
I don't think she should have been arrested at all. I mean, sure she was rude, BUT there are worse crimes than causing offense and hurt feelings (such as physical harm, for example). She's not really worth the time and money to be arrested.
theguymjp 3 months ago
She broke the public order act of causing alarm and distress
Yes she should of been placed under arrest
revron77 3 months ago
Freedom of speech is necessary no matter what is said. Society changes, but to limit freedom of speech would never end in our favor. Decades ago in the US the opposite of this video was true; with the people speaking against equality. The majority wanted to limit them, but rights protected that. We must never limit the rights of the people.
eric78559 3 months ago
...this is a tempest in a teacup...in the US we truly have freedom of speech, we don't play or delude ourselves that we do...getting arrested? in an already overcrowded prison system? totally insane....out trams have daily shoot outs and stabbings-much worse than some provocative words which she has a right to say as those have a right to ignore....people are not robots programmed to think and act the same, get over it....
SleepWhenIamDead 3 months ago
From my United States perspective I feel like she shouldn't be arrested. By arresting her you are saying that you can arrest anyone who verbalizes views that you do not agree with. From there you could arrest protesters for simply saying how they feel; be it "right" or "wrong" Tram Lady was just protesting on a local tram. As I see it, she shouldn't be arrested. Yet, if this had escalated past verbal "protest" (arguably abuse) then yes please arrest her.
clue111 3 months ago 2
She's just an ignorant woman. It worries me that she has a kid.
RandomGlass 3 months ago
She makes me absolutely sick. I am a British Asian and I just can't stand to hear anything she says. I do think she needed to be arrested; she was, as you said, provocative and clearly hateful - and to me arresting her sends a clear message that her attitude cannot be tolerated. On the matter of where her racism has stemmed from, it may well be because of the attitudes to working class white people, who feel neglected by the government. But nothing excuses anything she said.
hippogriffs95 3 months ago
As a black british male, I feel she should be free to express her freedom of speech and I will defend her right to do so. I do however feel she should've been arrested for disorderly conduct however.
SimonLYW 3 months ago
i just feel sorry for her kid...poor thing!!
PreciousChaos29 3 months ago
I think you're right that her arrest was a wise idea due to the provocative nature of her comments. However I think it should be a short arrest for that same reason as while she had cruel intent she didn't actually do anything.
Indeed freedom of speech is an important thing to have and while I think this woman is an idiot that freedom does apply to her too. However there is a time and place which this was neither.
GaiashKetoji 3 months ago
If she wasn't arrested the problem would have escalated, she needs to be made an example of and if that means arresting her then so be it. Sadly she'll be one of thousands in this country who share her views. It's all just an immensely sad situation for society in Britain.
DoctorBenjy 3 months ago
Maybe she shouldn't have been arrested, as you said there was no violence, however I'm glad something was done because in this day and age, being racist and acting the way she did is disgusting and unacceptable!
malteasertot 3 months ago
The royal family is German. We need communism to get rid of racism.
wesleysonic 3 months ago
@wesleysonic How would that help? It doesn't change the way people think, nor does it change our history, which leads to a lot of this racism. I'm honestly curious here.
MeSoDontAsk 3 months ago
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@MeSoDontAsk Communism does change the way people think. It will unite all races under the red banner.
wesleysonic 3 months ago
@wesleysonic "We need communism to get rid of racism.", huh, wow, that's... wow.
Congrats on being the stupidest thing I've ever read.
voltage17121712 3 months ago
why the long face?
BenTheNo1 3 months ago
@BenTheNo1 oh haw haw ;)
rhymingwithoranges 3 months ago