Near Death Experiences & Atheism part 1 of 5 Apologetics

[garythedog]

i listened to a howard storm interview on free thought radio...and howars final answer was horrible.....he needed money for some orphanage..hehe....go fish pathetic loooser!!!!!!!!!!!

[amzuel420]

"he needed money for some orphanage ..hehe....go fish"

Your compassion and generosity overwhelms me. Here's a prophesy for YOU: One day you will be in dire straights and someone will tell YOU to go fish.

[quintonlj]

i know in some nde i have read about people have seen krishna, also buddhists describing it as entering the great emptiness and others just meeting beings of light so i dont think there is one way to heaven but there definitely is a God :)

[grandconjunct]

You should really read through the comments before saying something that was answered dozens of times, If you read you will see no one denies this or is impressed with this, in fact Storm says in his book when you first get to heaven the first thing you see is what makes you feel most comfortable, then they slowly give you as much truth as you can handle , Jesus is the advanced college coarse in after life , NDEs don't teach pluralism & afterlife is not a magical place with no logic

[holyghostrad]

i have heard of atheist's buddist's and christians having nde, most turned to God and Christianity (even backsliders turned back), what i havent been able to find is any muslims having nde's....anyone found any??

[kirukivi30]

don't know if this will be helpul anymore, but as u were asking about musllims having NDEs, here i have a link with several NDEs from muslim people posted, they don't post them so much cuz is a controversy topic...but in resume pretty similar to christian's NDEs, take a look to the first link if u have the time (NDE from Bagdad cuz it has a good message). Peace!

[nighthawkjac]

thus explaning why ndes are so diffrent. :)

[ADreamersRoseGarden]

I wonder why people who have NDE who are atheist become Christian? Are there some that become something else? Another kind of religion? Why is it that Christianity is the only way to heaven? I dont see why someone of another religion cant go to heaven too. I think if your told that you are going to heaven only if your a christian, then if your not a christian and you have a NDE then in your mind you can create an image of hell. Please someone try to explain this? Thanks.

[BLUCOPPER123]

um idk why they go to christian they prob saw jesus or something but like i remember a buddhist person having a NDE and seeing buddha this can pron be cause they dont want him tofreak out or something you know to be calm idk thats the best i can do to explain it

[nighthawkjac]

i believe god appears to everyone diffrently according to there personality and the life they lived im not big on religion but i think he shows himself according to there beliefs and level of knowledge so it would be comfortable to them.

[NindzaRatnik]

Well I'll try...

Atheism imo is the most widespread geographically in the same areas where Christianity is. An average atheist knows the most about Jesus of all religious figures, and chose to reject exactly HIM. Probably this is what connects the vast majority of atheists to Christ, and not to Allah, Buddha, or others.

I mean...have you ever seen an atheist from Muslim countries? :)

Maybe I am wrong, but religion doesn't seem to matter much. But the way you live does.

[emel703]

ITs not about religion...ITs about getting closer to God....the only way is through Jesus Christ!

[k0smon]

emel703 : Since God is everywhere present, how can we get closer to Him than that? And He needs no middle-men to intercede, as He is fully capable of handling that Himself.

[kirukivi30]

i've seen NDE's from different religions, the mayority seem to see their own divinities and be judged according to their own personal concepts of good & bad. for example, a buddhist was in hell where there wasn't any food and when he asked why, the angel answered "cuz you didn't give to eat to the monks". I've seen buddhists -> christians, muslim with christian tendencies, but mostly attheists turn to God. As I've also seen many NDEs of non-christians repporting having been in paradise.

[sweeetly]

And God said...'let there be athiests'

If I know God then everything that is right here, right now, is meant to be, for the moment at least....

[MooWithMetubes]

I used to be an athiest...it's an extremely pointless existence...

[seanotube85]

The idea of a God would not feel threatening to me if it weren't inextricably connected with the "devil" and bullshit judgment calls on "Good" and "Evil" and of course Him deciding the criteria of who gets into heaven. Apparently, you used to go to hell for eating shell fish. Now it's if you decide to have anal sex. Kinda weird that an eternal, all powerful being would be concerned over such ridiculous matters. Also very scary that he would make us burn for eternity in hell over such things.

[bgbyer]

I think what you are referring to is "cultrual sins" that is praactices and beliefs of the current society. Perhaps in 50 years from now we will consider enviornmental sins as the latest wrong? But wrong (sin) should be viewed as things that hurt people. And don't forget that you are thinking that men can speak for God which I would disagree with.

[sweeetly]

Is the all powerful God concerned about these things??? Or are these things the concerns of people??

Its not the food you eat but how it makes you feel after you've eaten it, same with sex...heaven and hell are states of mind or being...the deal is free will...we choose how we live, feel. If I choose to hurt someone I can tell myself it don't matter...but some time I will feel the consequence coz thats how it works.

[theAtheistAntichrist]

Science doesn't have all the answers, but the more we learn- the less god gets credit for- for now, pseudo-science is religions new lease on life, but their "god of the gaps" (in our understanding of reality) shrinks with every inroad science makes into the unknown, and will continue to shrink until the idea of an invisible friend vanishes like a child's belief in monsters in the closet after they grow up. Humankind will grow up and forget such nonsense.

[theAtheistAntichrist]

God is imaginary. It's the invisible Leprechaun who really makes it rain.

[grandconjunct]

The Leprechaun must have gave you your "reliable god detector" part of the brain too cause it works "so well" and sees a leprechaun as more likely than a creator ? you need a new god detector yours is malfunctioning, or maybe it was left out in Rain ? Somewhere in the Infinite Multiverse there exists a planet full of Leprechauns who all see your sense of humor as being completely Invisible, and debate its very existence ?

F.A.I.L.-- F)-failure of A)atheist to I)induce L)Laughter.

[xXFrEeKyDeEzYXx]

theAtheistAntichrist got OWNED haha

[xxGLhrMxx]

OMG

Dream Theater in the intro!

they rock :)

[grandconjunct]

Science offers nothing without God to make it knowable and trustworthy, when we are sick we pray "AND" go to Hospital Knowing answered prayers are of grace , atheists assume sickness has no meaning so they assume either god heals or doesn't exist, We put lightning rods on our churches for the same reason we put roofs on our churches, for the same Reason we go to work , despite knowing God will provide, for locking doors while knowing God will protect, only atheists could be so confused

[Raffzeee]

you make sense

[dmrto3]

well said!

[1Solace]

owned

[etoileangelique324]

It's really nice to hear about these experiences. NDES are intriguing.

I agree with Howard, the best religion is the one that brings you closest to g-d, and that love is the final answer in the end.

And i respect this program and its creator for being diverse and open-minded.

[grandconjunct]

Howard was not teaching Pluralism with that comment, He was referring to denominations not world religions, as he has made clear he never asked Jesus about world religions in his NDE, at best he is teaching Inclusivism((view people in other faiths can be saved but this will only be because of Jesus))which is the view Modern Catholics hold to. If you have interpreted my posting this video as teaching religious pluralism ((view you can knowingly reject jesus )) you are very mistaken.

[Area0052]

Skeptics need to learn to learn to accept new Ideas like NDEs and recognize when old materialist blinders have become obsolete, and no matter how badly they want the good old days of being in power, those days are over.

[darkforce333]

Most NDE are explained by science. Gary Habermas has something on special cases where people were basically dead and recalled seeing things that the couldn't have possibly seen. I don't know if these are true, but skepticism doesn't mean you eliminate the possibility of the supernatural. It's just you need really good evidence for it when nature has natural explanations either 99.99999999999% or 100% of the time.

[grandconjunct]

darkforce >nature has natural explanations 99.99999999999% of the time.

I hate to break the news to you D.F. but even the most charitable reading of the NDE data shows Naturalists have zero percent of the NDE explained, The atheist bravado about "No evidence for God" and "fully explained" NDEs by Naturalistic explanations" is just a mantra repeated over and over with no attempt to even begin to deal with the data, brain scans may explain atheists mental blockages but not the NDE phenomenon.

[CaramelHottie2]

You are allowed to be skeptic, just be open to learn and go with what you truly feel, and be wise enough to know that maybe these people's experiences are part of the proof especially since most of them were non believers, and they at one point thought what they went through are fairytales. The ppl in their lives even give witness to the experiencer's major change in their heart, ways, and attitude towards everything they thought was nonsense. Plus I believe based on my own experiences.

[ceeqanguel]

Now Caramelhottie2 has a wonderful message here: Be open to learn and you're allowed to be skeptic (I truly thank you for that)

I must admit I disagree with her conclusion about NDE, as I have lived through one (total car wreck, I still have nightmares about it)

and I was really lucky, but still, I believe my safety belt saved me, not a deity. And I freely confess I have some very vague recollection of said "walk into the white light" but I still am able to attribute it to medical reasons.

[elroy2112]

You're also allowed to be skeptical of skepticism too !

Your safety belt saved you, not a deity! ? LOL, you remind me of the atheist who was sliding down a roof and headed for the cement below and out of fear tried a prayer for God to save him, then as he went over the edge a nail caught his clothing and stopped him, so he said never mind God , the nail saved me! Was the Light deity free? like a big wasteful mindless light bulb ? NDEs are not just brain chemicals ,atheism is.

[ceeqanguel]

Atheists are born and raised in the same environment as theists do, so chances are the expression :Oh my god! Oh mon Dieu! Gott im Himmell! Deo in cielo! are equally common for everyone. Strange that the definition of a diety is so different from people to people.

In responce to your skepticism: What if that atheist had died from the fall, would it have been because of no safety measures or because God was looking away? Worse,He had wanted him to die? According to you:he wins in every scenario

[elroy2112]

Religious folk believe in safety belts and Modern medicine too ya know not just the atheist city slickers. Theirs no false dilemma between seat belts or God was the point, you can believe in both! The dead atheist could use safety equipment and even genuinely pray and still die, Gods not a vending machine and doesnt motivate via bribes or threats any more than your own Dad does. I never defined God/deity, do you think a light bulb or rock is a deity in your neck of the woods?

[ceeqanguel]

God does not use bribes or threats? ETERNAL BURNING! My dad used to physically send me to my room for real, or at least threaten me he would. But he WAS there! I can show you a picture of him. Heck! You can even meet him in person if you don't "believe" I have a parent. And you "know" what a safety belt is! We both don't require any faith for these examples. You can even prove the wind exists even if its invisible, gravity too! You can demonstrate these forces in the physical world. Not gods!

[ceeqanguel]

If atheism is just brain chemicals, then do you think a belief in the supernatural is a "lack of chemicals"? Also you have avoided answering my question: Let's say god exists in the roof accident scenario: if the poor guy had died, would then God say:"whoopsie, I wasn't looking"?(then he wouldn't be omniscient) Would he have snapped his fingers and poofed a nail into existence but missed?(then he's not omnipotent) Or just not have cared about the prayer?(Not all-loving) Why do people die at all?

[Iluvanonymous]

As for this last question, (you obviously are a theological ignoramus) because the Bible's entire message is concerning man's salvation FROM death by God. Man dies physically because of the fall...likewise he WILL die spiritually without Christ.

[Iluvanonymous]

"I was in a car accident..I had my seat belt on and didnt die, therefore God doesnt exist."

Forgive me, but that's the stupidest thesis I've ever heard!

What type of "evidence" do you require to prove Gods existence to you?

My guess would be material (considering you used the very dumb "no picture...no God" pretext). Now how are we supposed to acquire material evidence of God when God is an immaterial being and exists outside of this Universe? We can't.

[Iluvanonymous]

However, we CAN look at History and weigh the evidence for Christianity to determine...(at least somewhat) that God, more specifically, Yahweh exists.

[elroy2112]

ceeqanquel>God does not use bribes or threats? ETERNAL BURNING!

elroy> their is literally no end to your atheist ignorance Mr. qanquel, the point is God, much like fathers and governments, even atheist governments (Sweden), still first motivate by respect and Love, & threats like Prison or Hell are only for people who take Relativism seriously and don't Respect their fellow man or Government or Go(o)d, saying Government or God is only a threat!

Is your atheist ignorance dawning on you

[elroy2112]

cequang>`If atheism is just brain chemicals, do you think a belief in the supernatural is a "lack of chemicals"?

Elroy > Mr ce, you completely missed the point, I am not saying the naive self refuting idea that atheist hold to that all thoughts are just chemicals or lack of chemicals, thats your mistake. My theistsic worldview says people can freely rise above there chemical hardwiring and freely reason to a conclusion,something thats not possible in a materialistic universe, understand now?

[socer777]

all that an NDE is is just the brain reacting to a loss of blood, when stuck in situations that are in no possible way fatal yet there is a loss of blood to the brain (like when astronauts go into the machine that raises the G's) they have the same kind of experiences

[grandconjunct]

Part 1)The Airfoce G-loc study was done by Dr. James whinnery Who reported his findings in Journal of NDEs 97' and journal of aviation and medicine 88'when 1000 pilots loss blood to brain in centrifuge tests, the experiences were mainly in 2 categories 1)those who experienced being in closed spaces like a closet 2). Those in open spaces in daylight in colorful environments, common to all was incorporating physical events into the dream like being in bumper cars at an amusement park

[grandconjunct]

Part 2) or pulling on a fishing rod as there bodies jerked around in centrifuge. The Dreamlets had all the characteristics of a standard dream including

1). Emotional intensity 2). Illogical Content 3). Uncritical acceptance 4). Difficulty remembering dream after it was over. Dr. James Whinnery concluded "NDE like experiences were NOT reported during study maybe we need longer exposure to G-loc to create environment similar to death."

[grandconjunct]

Part 3)

The fact atheists are ignoring 95% of NDE data and trying to get public to only look at a small sliver of data the G-loc study shows dishonesty but when they don't even look at the conclusion the Air force came to but instead reference some penn n teller B.S. artist video on youtube that cherry picks data from this study shows the desperate predicament atheists are in. The G-loc argument was refuted a decade ago even most naturalist NDE researchers consider it discredited long ago.

[dankpurple]

aha this socer777 learns information from youtube videos. dont listen to him

[BaBaBaBlazin]

im telling you all, read one book of the new testament while believing just for the sake of so many believers, and the bible hasn't been absolutely proven false ever, if you just believe in your heart for one book of the new testament, you will hopefully understand a little bit of how wonderful jesus is and was and forever will be... and why would such righteous, god-inspired men lie?! u must believe in what is invisible to save yourself sometimes

[grandconjunct]

baba>>u must believe in what is invisible to save yourself sometimes

grand>> Sometimes What seems invisible you think about it, realize it's necessity then you see it was there all the time and wonder how we missed it, sort of like the nose on our faces that we rarely "see". (One of God's many graces to keep invisible). Theres enough proof for God that we are fool for not believing it, but not enough to where we can't be forgiven later like the angels who fell in God's very presence.

[DeathRattleShakes]

NOT ONE THING!!!! TELL ME ONE THING THAT HAS NOT COME TRUE IN THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!! My friends always say, "Yeah the bible, them ost accurate source of information ever!" And I tell them, tell me ONE THING THAT IS UNTRUE IN THE BIBLE!!!! Either they don't know enough or they don't know enough STILL HAHA!!!! NEVER EVER EVER EVER PROVEN FALSE!!!

[Sheketo]

Ya, look at Lee Strobel xD

[NIMHFS]

woot, dream theater.

[G0dspelronin]

It never ceases to amaze me when someone commits himself to trying to prove something doesn't exist when he doesn't believe it exists. I never mention the things that do not exist in my mind because they are non existent. It kinda points in the other direction like when a child swears he didn't break something before you've even asked; this is the case every time I hear an "atheist" rabble on and on. I believe more and more in my Creator the more you atheists speak about how He's not there....

[chyrd]

Keep in mind... brain dead is dead dead... there is no one that is coming back from brain death.

[grandconjunct]

NDEs happen while people have Flat (zero) brain activity ,EEG records any brain activity at all yet there is none,no thinking or dreaming hallucinating etc.. none,zilch , they are seperate from the body as all evidence suggests.

People have been dead for several days and revive in morgue with hyper detailed NDE's

yet atheist's oddly claim they revived therefore they did not really die? does this mean if a person turns to ash in grave then revives they never died? atheism is ridiculous & Blind.

[chyrd]

Just for your edification, an EEG monitors "higher" brain function only... so no activity is not indicative of a dead brain.

[grandconjunct]

Incorrect the EEG monitors any brain activity from delta to Gamma waves and including dreaming, sleeping , vegetative state, etc. only death reads zero brain activity, this is why most states define legal death as EEG that reads flat line. Drugs are not the only thing that triggers NDEs lots of other things like close brushes with death like apparent accidents cause them too and there is no DMT released in close calls, so atheists need to keep searching for a cause so far they have failed

[chyrd]

I know of one ER doctor who kept an electronic sign board over her cabinets. She does this because she frequently comes across people who are on the brink of death and have an NDE. Each day she changes the message. I first heard of this doctor back in the early 80's and she said then that no one had come back from a NDE and told her what the sign said.

[grandconjunct]

Chyrd did you step out of a time machine from 10yrs ago? What kind of person would be bored by his own life and death resuscitation and seeing people through walls and family hundreds of miles away and get bored with this dramatic scene then look for numbers on top of cabinets? Only an atheist-tard to be blunt.

Ignoring supernatural evidence I listed and crying about numbers is stupid, especially since a U.C. Davis professor ran a number on cabinet test 10 yrs ago and confirmed NDE's reality

[braino2000]

The atheists will never give up. Science, which is their faith, cannot explain a vast majority of the universe let alone NDE's. THe closest they can come is a little bit of speculation and ALOT of avoiding the issue altogether.

[chyrd]

You don't need faith to believe science. Science is self correcting, and the closest thing you can get to the truth. Theists need faith in order to believe what they do, as there is NO evidence of the supernatural.

[grandconjunct]

Science requrires that they have reason which can be trusted this is a 100% faith commitment which is not even justfied in a materialistic universe, where no one designed the atheists brain, atheists also blindly trust that the world is intelligible, consistent, can be studied by science, this is why atheism undermines science and leaves the atheist without logical justification but only irrational faith.Conciouness itself is supernatural atheists cant even begin to explain this simple fact.

[grandconjunct]

chyrd>> Look up Occam's Razor.

grand >> you not only need to study more upto date NDE research, you also need a class on Philosophy, occams razor says you take all of data into account before applying Ockhams chain saw, not just the parts you want to cut and paste explain, you continue to ignore full scope , blind NDEs , shared NDEs, fact almost every researacher says they have never found a single incorrect fact given from an NDEr when many have researched as many as 10 thousannd NDEs

[braino2000]

Idk....How can near death experiences be a "brain tic" (according to atheists) when ATHEISTS have had similar experiences! Would they just see their so-called "truth" (nothing) as they believed? After all, they always claim that people have these experiences because of what they believe.

[grandconjunct]

LOL, true braino, but I think you give the athiests way to much credit, they believe what they want to believe then claim science as a smokescreen or after thought to justify what they already decided was true, this is why even if someone rise from the dead they still will not believe, even if they are the ones doing the riseing, as in A.J. Ayers case

,always remember its rarely about Evidence but about presuppostions motivated by emotions etc.

[grandconjunct]

The smartest atheists here on youtube have made videos admitting no evidence would change there mind if they saw a miracle they would assume they were being tricked, time traverlers, quantum anaomley, or science will one day explain it etc, etc, these are the honest clear thinking atheists, the naive ones are the ones who say if me and another person saw a miracle together then I would believe, but miracles never happen so I will most likely never believe, these are the Naive ones.

[chyrd]

People who have used pcp, or ketamine, who have also had NDE's, claim that the experiences are fairly identical.

[grandconjunct]

Karl Jansen the leading expert in world on Ketamine, who originally proposed that Ketamine explained the NDE, after more research admitted that it can not account for an NDE, your info is out of date chyrd, and DMT is not released in case of some NDE triggers like a close call accident.

at best drugs can only trigger NDE not cause the NDE itself. and some studies on "K" with NDE'ers taking it said there is no similarity.

Chyrd your info is about 10 yrs out of date.

[jazzmom66]

Please check out my personal NDE video on my channel. One of the more significant things I remember from my NDE was an eerie phenomenon that no one in the science community has been able to explain as of yet. Can you explain how I was able to 'see' the man in the hallway, if I was dead inside my apartment? How can that be an hallucination (a common answer I get from the materialists)...when it was actually TRUE?

[acidstars9]

It is common for ND experiencers to go out of their bodies and see things. Dannion Brinkley even heard a doctor betting that he was not going to survive. Other people have travelled around looking at their families, etc. before passing on. Science cannot explain this.

[Oldwise123]

Well i hear dream theater^^ Good start!

[dl0]

The NDE is too extraordinary to not be studied further. I'm convinced its real. I don't see how the brain works *better* under the kinds of stress scientists say. There are theories that suggest its a chemical. The problem is the experience is very cohesive and seems to be similar for many people.

[grandconjunct]

people routinely see things like this

1) people can not only see the hospital scenes but what there familys are doing hundreds of miles away.

2). People born blind from birth have all the same "scenes" "Life Reviews" etc

3)Multiple deaths such as car wrecks have same NDE together !

Naturalist Neuroscience will litterally need

to find a "Miracle Chemical" to explain things like this, and a hundred other things I could list if I had the space.

[gmdinformation]

"Multiple deaths such as car wrecks have same NDE together!"

People that that have taken LSD together also at times seem to have the same transendental experience. The Christian singer Keith Green talked about "leading groups" through drug trips together before he became a Christian. Weird stuff!

[grandconjunct]

Dont doubt that at all, like I said in many of the comments below , it is well known that many things can trigger OBE, tramatic experience, near miss accident, Drugs etc.I dont even believe dreaming is just "brain chemicals" as lucid dreamers have also "shared dreams" Lucid dreamers have decided to "go to heaven" in there dream and come back with same desriptions of heaven,as NDErs. not even everyday conciousness is explainable by marerialism. All of this is a plus for soul, not naturalism.

[acidstars9]

It is possible that these drugs are tapping into some sort of spiritual connection that people have, and that is also apparent when the spirit leaves the body.

[grandconjunct]

acidstars>>It is possible that these drugs are tapping into some sort of spiritual connection that people have.

grand >> Sort of, the drugs arent actually necessary to trigger an OBE many other things can trigger them. I think what drugs do best is drown parts of the brain that would normally restrain an OBE, and drugs are not related to an NDE in progress at all, as the EEG reads Zero brain activity during NDE.

So idea that drugs cause NDE is very refuted.

[chyrd]

Faulty sensory input, oxygen deprivation and endorphin-induced euphoria create a surreal, though realistic, experience. When the subject recalls the encounter later, it has passed through the filter of his conscious mind. Bizarre experiences that seem unexplainable become spirit beings, other dimensions and conversations with God.

Look up Occam's Razor.

[braino2000]

Science cannot explain most near-death experiences. So you're saying that the brain creates images like this when it's dead? People who have been pronounced dead have come back to life and claimed to have had experiences. Scientists have tried to get away with those suggestions but failed. Please explain why an atheist, in particular, would die and see something he didn't believe in ( hell ) his brain wouldn't just create those images.

[grandconjunct]

wrong again Chyrd, your Info is way out of date, An Atlanta cardiologist falsified the Hypoxia (lack of oxegyn) explanation back in 1982, your other theories assume there is brain activity to have this false NDE's "last dream" there is none. NDEs cant be said to recreate false visions, because the visions are correct of what happned while the EEG reads flat line, not to mention your are ignoring ability to know correctly what is happening there and at a distance and a hundred other things.

[grandconjunct]

when you start with Naturalism you should not be suprised that the only possible conclusion you end up with is , suprise , suprise , "Naturalism" !

So even if an atheist sees a miracle before her eyes, a universe out of nothing, or with design, or an NDE miracle etc, no matter how amazing or big the miracle, the Naturalist must accept psedo science, I.E. Multiverse,

Miracle brain chemicals cause blind NDEs etc

or usually just have faith science will "explain" it all one day.

[aikiboy1111111]

Yeah, best way to keep at it right now. As for ESP research, the best I'm willing to say for it is that there have been a very few well controlled studies, and nowhere near enough replication attempts to say that there is anything there. The well controlled studies have had significant results however, so that says to me,"Hmm. That's interesting. Better check that out. If there's anything to it, great. If not, chalk it up to experience and move on to the next mystery."

[dl0]

One of the interesting developments in science is trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in ways where they are compatible with each other.

So far, we've got 11 dimensions each having their own unique aspect of particle interaction. If we are in a 3 dimensional universe and complexity increases geometrically when you add dimensions, it seems to me that string theory is suggesting there are MANY particle interactions in "reality" that aren't observable in our limited universe.

[hazaratkhan]

I truly feel that you hit the nail on the head.

[dl0]

The brain doesn't work better when dead, you don't just "see a light", people bring back information that couldn't be gotten otherwise.

The lie is that this world is the basis of reality. I find it interesting that scientists try to explain away the most extraordinary experiences people can have who come back and say they felt MORE ALIVE than when they were alive here, when their physical bodies and minds where very dead.

[grandconjunct]

If you are saying the "other world" or "NDE" world is more real, I agree and every NDEr i have talked to says the same thing, this world is the less real less alive world.

Although people who say this world or hellish world is Ilusion are insane in my opinion , because if the illusionary flames of hell hurt just as bad as "real" ones than what is the diffrence ? " Illusion" would then become a meaningless word, a distinction without a diffrence as they say. Do you believe in a material soulmind

[hazaratkhan]

who r we to say anything outside of what can see, where does space end? Truly how old is the earth, so why do try to explain away something when we are ourselves can not even expalin it...self defeating idea that we have  infinite knowledge when we do not

[grandconjunct]

So we should question what we "cant see" so we should accept radical empericism and say

NDErs are not sensing these things through senses, and what does not come through our 5 senses is nonsense, therefore NDEs cant be true ? thats the ultimate arrogance and running from truth and science and burying ones head in sand.

[ALogicalConstruct]

Also one must take into account that people who grow up in Christian countries have the stereotypical Go to hell then raptured to heaven, Muslims see Mohammed, Hindus see Vishnu or Krishna, if near-death experiences held truth wouldn't they all be the same rather than dictated by pre-held, sub conscious beliefs?

[dl0]

Right, and its told time and time again by "them" that the death experience in itself is intended to be most comfortable for the person meaning they take their own background with them.

I'm trying to figure out why scientists are trying to convince people that the brain actually works *better* when its completely dead.

How is it that people who were dead on the operating table explain in detail the procedure and equipment used?

[ALogicalConstruct]

Site an example of the latter and I wouldn't call the effects of a neurotoxin as making the brain work better. I actually hope there is life after death, i just don't think that decreeing it is a valid argumentative technique, we must follow the facts where they lead us. Explain a process in which a soul can be accounted for as well as any god figure and i'll listen.

[ALogicalConstruct]

Also you need to take into account that the environment effects the hallucination greatly, taking a hallucinogen while at a party or in a laboratory will have dramatically different effects, especially compared to taking it when you assume you are dead.

[aikiboy1111111]

I agree with you. That's why I prefer Susan Blackmore's account for an explanation for NDEs. The only loose end pertaining to NDEs that needs to be further researched are these descriptions of people's own surgeries they saw when they were actually clinically dead. The best way to research that aspect is just to have more people attempt to replicate ESP experiments with considerably better controls, than have been used at present. If anything is found, then there might be an external element to

[aikiboy1111111]

(cont) the NDEs. Otherwise, I believe they are just an attempt by the brain to make one feel better owing to the hypoxia, kind of like one hell of a nice hallucination.

[ALogicalConstruct]

Aiki:

Exactly, if there are real examples of NDEs then we can research them.

[aikiboy1111111]

I've got a few sources on one of my videos talking about just such evidence. However, the only thing it's convinced me of is that we should be attempting to further research ESP type research to see if there is anything there. Other than that, I'm still skeptical.

[grandconjunct]

there are 15 millioin americans running around who have had NDEs, you should start doing some real research.

[grandconjunct]

aikboy>> NDEs,I believe they are just an attempt by the brain to make one feel better owing to the hypoxia, kind of like one hell of a nice hallucination.

Grand>> LOL , so the peacefull NDE is explained by the body trying to get everything back to normal heart beat etc.. ?

let me guess the Hellish NDE is to try and scare someone back to life ? an evolutionary coping thing?

A theory that explains everything and its opposite "explains" nothing , these are not explanations but evasions

[grandconjunct]

"The only loose end " LOL ,you are either very Naive or very uninformed about NDE data.

Naturalism actully struggles with what it claims to have explained, and completley chokes on majority of data which it ignores.

examples please explain

1) people can not only see the hospital scenes but what there familys are doing hundreds of miles away.

2). People born blind from birth have all the same "scenes" "Life Reviews" etc

3)Multiple deaths such as car wrecks have same NDE together !

[ALogicalConstruct]

Did you block me?

[ALogicalConstruct]

Never mind my computer is acting up....

[ALogicalConstruct]

Near death experiences are caused by the release of dimethyltryptamine within the brain. You can buy it on the street, it is also the active ingredient in Ayahuasca the visionary tea of south America. While i acknowledge that hallucinatory experiences can be very profound the near death experience is no different than someone having a spiritual experience on LSD or Peyote.

[grandconjunct]

DMT does not cause NDEs when people take this they hallucinate see aliens, elves, talking machines etc.. very incoherent experiences, NDEs are always described as being the most lucid coherent experience of ones lives, accompanied by real world scenes hospitals, family members hundreds of miles away then proceeds to a coherent other worldly place and people born blind from birth see these things, DMT is proving to be another Hoax like the desperate oxygen and Ketamine "explanations" of the past

[ALogicalConstruct]

I don't know about you but in my younger drug taking days i took DMT several times, the difference you are describing is when people free base it as opposed to taking it orally; the effects of the latter are quite different. I am curious about where you got your information because it seems very biased: If you want firs hand experiance reports, you could look to National Geographic Adventure March 2006, in which a writer takes Ayuascha (which is DMT with a MAOI to sustain the effect)...