Six times in one day?? God, where do you live? This has happened to me, and I react the same way you do. I find it to be totally disrespectful, and if nothing else, obnoxious.
"I don't wanna seem as I'm perceiving myself as a supermodel"
I'm very happy you aren't a model bc that life seems to be....double edged...and vacuously stupefying, but you probably could be if you wanted to.
I'm stating this as fact - beauty can be both a boon and a nuisance. I'm not defending the people yelling after you, but unfortunately I don't think they are unaware it's unwelcome, it's just they don't care. Assholes exist and that isn't changing. And you are entitled to your feelings.
I think most guys that whistle or comment about a woman's looks on the street just want to have their "rooster moment". Y'know, strut a bit & feel more manly.
To all these boys calling us womyn "girls", first off, that is the first inkling to the problem. Sexual harassment is not about compliments or,attraction, it is about degrading and humiliating womyn to build up the low self esteem of males, just like when they call us girls. Just like with rape, it is about control and intimidation. That is why regardless of how you feel about the "compliments" or how you look, they do it. That is why it happens to all womyn regardless of how we look.
I only do it to girls that i see that are kinda average- below average like you, and girls that dont intimidate me, and i do it not to compliment you, but to make you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable, I dont want to have sex with you if i say it. Its for fun, more fun for me though... and i still do it , and yes i know it makes me look bad
I think most cat calls are when guys are with their friends. They're trying to show that they're not afraid of girls. I don't bother because my friends already know that I'm afraid of girls. The best thing you can do is reward the shy guys who just smile or make subtle eye contact. Smile back, say hello, etc.
@smokehouseflannigan "The best thing you can do is reward the shy guys who just smile or make subtle eye contact. Smile back, say hello, etc." Oh lord, reward you for doing what you are supposed to do by being polite and treating womyn like the human beings we are supposed to be treated as? You sound like a rapist/ stalker.
i wouldn't be as nice as you were to that one guy, i'd tell them to fuck off. there's -no- reason why you or any woman should have to put up with this sexist bull.
Unfortunately, there will always been morons like this, perhaps its a Mating call for people of similar low I.Q. I would say a bit like Monkeys, but that is insulting to Monkeys.
My solution to the problem (Clearly, I do not have this problem, I have the "Chav" problem, and they are very hostile - Google Chav, if you don't know!) - BIG HEADPHONES and an ipod.
I am not familiar with this sort of stuff at all. Maybe it's geographical location, for me, the situation when a douche guy compliments a girl on the street in this "Hey gorgeous" kind of way is something that I associate with movies. I've seen it happen in clubs and bars on occasions, but not once on the street.
Where I grew up you couldn't walk a block with out this happening at least once. Only if you said anything back or even made eye contact they'd follow you trying to talk for the next block. I just learned to ignore it.
But you shouldn't feel like a humorless bitch, it isn't a genuine compliment, it is harassment and the sole purpose being to make you feel powerless - the irony being that it just makes woman think of them as less of a man and more of a irritating fly.
I don't know why I din't think of this before ! when they say something at you and it don't please you , just turn to them a bit and grab yourself like you got a package and adjust it around ! the others will think your in drag ! ! ! that should stop them !
The cat call is a display of desire. In the animal kingdom males put on displays (like a peacock) to attract females whom they detect is in heat. While most humans do not follow all their primal instincts, seeing a beautiful woman passing by can still trigger an uncontrollable display in some.
Guys do it because they are either too afraid to actually approach an attractive women or they are chauvinistic, obnoxious jerks trying to show off with their friends. It does degrade women, you should pity them rather than taking it personally. You can feel good about yourself when a guy actually gives you a genuine compliment because harassment is totally different and offensive.
Ella so what is the best way to approach an attractive women such as yourself?
Men who do this are bullies. If a stranger tells you that you look nice or pretty, it is a compliment. Cat calls, name-calling and other intimidating behaviour are not flattery. Men know a random woman is not that likely to retaliate even if she is strong enough she was most likely raised to be polite. They are bullying cowards. Confronting them sometimes works, ignoring them or laughing in their face also pisses them off.
I'm late to the party and too lazy to read all the comments.
I don't think there's hypocrisy in taking a complement from someone who actually talks to you like a human being in a pleasant and approachable voice and not wanting to be catcalled like a sideshow attraction. That's honestly the difference to me. One is approaching you respectfully, as a person, and paying a complement - attempting to engage you. The other is screaming and gesturing at you, treating you as less than human.
People wants to be funny, "hollering" at girls provides laughs for some. I know girls want to wear what they want and not be bothered but if you look like your asking for it, then your asking for it in some peoples minds.
Some of the cats on the corner need to listen to a couple of songs. One is sung by Miss Aretha called "RESPECT!"
The other one is by The Staple Singers and it's called "Respect Yourself".
I think the idea of street harassment is a tribal thing and it goes back to the Stone Age. Guys do it as a way of bonding with the other cave men with them.
Let's take the average cave man at home listening to his STEREO.
He get tired of bein' alone, man, so he want to go out and do his thing.
You have an opportunity to positively address this issue every time something like this happens. You can explain to the man that he is going about things the wrong way. Maybe give him some pointers on how to approach women. However, if you are encountering this six times a day and you try to educate everyone of these guys, you'll never have time for anything else. You also have to consider that men in groups are not open to coaching. We have to save face in front of our boys, you know.
Of course, we are also trying to get a reaction. A good reaction is preffered, but a bad reaction is still better than no reaction. An interesting question is this: A man might pay you a polite and well formed compliment, and you would feel flattered. A second man would call from behind you and comment on the sway of your hips, and you would feel insulted. Is their intent really that different? Who is to say that the well spoken man doesn't also want to do dirty things to your body?
I think that about half of the reason why men do this is that we are subject to our wolfpack mentality. When you're out with your boys you wanna act like one of the guys. Society would have us believe that being a guy means being aggressive towards women. Maybe you've received obscene advances from guys who are by themselves, but I would be willing to wager that the majority come from men in groups. I say this because I only ever make cat calls when I'm out with my crew.
Guys who do stuff like that are mentally adolescent. They are the same type to start a fight if someone did that to their mom or sister with them nearby. I'm glad you said something!
I would say that all of the people that I care the most about in my life are women, and if anyone fracks with them, I would kick some butt. therefor there is no way I could treat any woman (or any person) that way. give them hall Ella
P.S. you are a beautiful person starting from the inside and working outwards.
I've actually seen girls flattered by that approach of yelling and touching. Of course they're most likely girls with low self esteem looking for any type of validation from the opposite sex. But then again the guys who do the cat calling aren't exactly looking for their intellectual equals. I usually step in when I feel the girl can't get out of the situation on her own... One time I was even laughed at (by the girl) for doing so... so confused
Scenario : The men, in a group will wolf whistle or say something to a woman passing by. Now from a 3rd party perspective it looks like the men are at a zoo & the woman they see is the exhibit.
I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but if you try & see it from my view point, it can be seen like that & I'm guessing, the woman feels like she's safe going about her day & when this happens she immediately feels as though she's an exhibit & therefore instantly out of her comfort zone.
@greedyfoot spot on with that comment, ive always said the difference between a "perve" and a "cheeky" guy, is if he is attractive or not!, i understand that some guys who are attractive can still be "sleazy" but for the vast majority of cases, if the woman finds the guy attractive then it seems its all down to him being "cheeky" as apposed to a big fat sweaty "perve", cant have two sets of rules!
@SuperGiantdouche I think you're absolutely right about this - cheeky vs pervert or creepy vs intriguing. What fundamentally is the difference between "cat calls" and a generic compliment like "Hi, sexy" or "lookin' good!" from a passing stranger?
@greedyfoot I think your comment speaks volumes. As I have always said, rape, sex harassment, male entitlement, double standards are all about men wanting womyn for their reproductive benefit by controlling our bodies. That is why womyn get punished for selling our pussies while men walk awat scot free for rape since the womyn gets blamed for her morals, for what she wore. Just ask me. You know what? Let me ask you this? If some ugly MAN was chasing you, honking at you, would you like it?
@TheHoeDownTV What, oh... a womyn... someone who devalues rape by comparing it to cat calls... bet almost rape is in same catagory.... so my only response. Man, Christian Bale is such a hero, when his mom and sister gave him lip he knew how to handle it. Also, go fuck yourself you evil whore. Feel free to go to a rape clinic and tell them how you understand how it felt, since some guy whistled at you earlier.
@greedyfoot You accuse me of "devaluing rape" yet you advocate violenxe against womyn and call me a "whore" maliciously in context? Yeah, you hate womyn alright. I sure know how to pull the bull oit of ppl's eyes and show their true colors. Your mom should have aborted you! We womyn control LIFE, you know that, BOY!
@greedyfoot As I said before. Sexual/ street harassment is, just like rape, about power and control. Just like rape, they gain the trust of the victim or do it in an isolated area. All of these sexual harassers/ predators on here are proof of this.
My take on this behavior is that it reinforces masculinity (as defined as the collection of ideas within the dominant culture about how men should act or feel) in a group of men who's culture calls for constant overt expressions of group identity.
These men are not hollering at girls to seduce them, they do it to communicate to their peers the message of dominance over women, a message largely incorporated into many cultures' ideas of masculinity.
Jerry Seinfeld in first ever Seinfeld episode (pilot): "Men are not subtle — men are obvious. Women know what men want. Men know what men want. What do we want? We want women! It's the only thing we know for sure: we want women! How do we get women? Oh, we don't know that. After that first step, we have no idea. This is why you see men honking their car horns, yelling from construction sites; these are the best ideas we've had so far."
I totally agree with you on this issue. Many girls just laugh and smile when a guy on the street leers though I'm sure they find that anything but deserving of such a response. I've taken to just giving the guy a hard look, because though I'd like to retaliate, that really is far from smart to do in such a situation thus making the woman feel degraded. Generally guys who catcall are in groups and often times they win the attention of their friends, but disregard social etiquette and respect.
Those men are not well schooled on basic human courtesy. Stopping, and staring at them, like caged zoo animals, may send the best answer. Then move on. You should not CARE if they see you as a "humorless bitch". They are not important to your future life. Those who comment nicely and pleasantly should be thanked, but move on.
It's so interesting to read all your responses! Thank you. My own sister disagrees with me on this issue, so the plurality of opinion among men AND women fascinates me.
...who enjoyed that music would not be bothered, whereas people who disliked it would find it irritating. I personally would never do anything like that and have no friends who would do that, for me it's just showing a whole load of disrespect to describe someone as 'hot' or 'smoking'.
I guess you prefer beautiful because it implies something deeper than just superficial aesthetics.
I could write a lot more, but I am really, really tired. Smile! XD
I think it depends on the sleaziness of the comment... Describing someone as beautiful is on a whole other level than saying that they are 'hot'. It's not as simple as that though... I have friends who actually enjoy those kind of comments and other friends who actually don't feel they get enough.
In the end I think it's about how it makes the recipient feel... I mean, not everyone enjoys the music of a particular band. Say someone was driving by in a car playing that music, people...
Pt2. I've been told by (intelligent) girlfriends and other women that random, strange men giving them attention in public -- from cat-calls to spilling coffee to oblique stares -- was quite flattering and day-making. I've also heard reactions similar to yours. What should a man do knowing both reactions are possible? Maybe you should walk up to a man who DIDNT notice you and ask him "(1) Do you think I'm attractive?" and if he says "yes" then ask "(2) Why didn't you stare at/call after me?"
The debate over life, the universe, and everything... could you have waited at least till today to post this? Sit in a cafe in south Italy or Greece and just watch how the men persist after a young woman. Now visit an aviary and listen to the peacocks and their 3-minute croons to the hens - plumage isn't enough! Back 2 NYC - the melting pot of cultures, 90% of which are male-dominated. Those men being on a low rung of cultural evolution, are expressing appreciation of and longing for your beauty
men are pigs.... we cant help it, and seriously, would you really want it any other way? There's a 3rd option - give the pigs what they want and have fun doing it, give them a quick cheap thrill and flash a cheesecake pose.... opps, I'm being a pig. but that's what we want, seems pretty innocent from here.... it's just underware
I agree its really dumb and im a little ashamed of my fellow men for that crap. Its a bit different for being a guy and walking places. Ive been shouted horrible names and I have gotten hit walking past guys on the street in Ireland. Its just a horrible situation all around.
Any particular type of person doing this or just a mix? You had a very good response. If more woman would response that way, it would happen less.
I think if the comment is about from the neck up, it's person to person and could be said to anyone without issue: "Smile, the day's as gorgeous as you are."
Commenting about attributes below the neck is demeaning both to you and any woman that person knows personally because he's being such a douche.
I think that what every man more or less elaborately wonders is: If you see a woman in the street, and she's walking past you and then away, what do you do? I can't yell things. So? Should I follow her? Probably not. Should I just let go and hope to meet her socially in the near future? Not terribly effective. So? Men don't feel that any approach is acceptable, so perhaps they elect one that is overtly arrogant.
C) I wrote a bunch of suggestions for you on 'pressthe' a couple of days back... lets just say my spidey sense is acting up...
I'm off to watch movies for the rest of the day (no more research and writing for me today).... its Candian Thankgsgiving long weekend... and I have a Turkey to stuff as well....
B. Trauma: Talk to someone who you trust and begin the process of healing and learning. There are professionals who can help, but there is also the danger of being re-traumatized when you are 'raw' (eg. Nazi's showing up in your comment section). May I recommend that if you don't feel like eating and have pain in your solar plexus - this is a sign of (re)traumatization. The best thing you can do is make ginger tea (from real ginger) for the pain - and perhaps watch an old episode of 'Allo Allo'
A) The Police: If the same person (or group) engages in this behaviour 'more than once' - depending on local laws, this should be grounds for charging them with 'criminal harrassment'. If you tell a police officer that you fear for your safety, and this has happened more than once - then antistalking/harrasment laws kick in. At least you can turn-the tables on this person through the hell of the criminal justice system - even without jail. Don't forget this.
I've found that in every population there will always be a portion that are complete morons that are best ignored and pitied. As long as they limit their abuse to words, I tend to just ignore them. There is no point getting yourself worked up over someone who clearly doesn't have the intelligence to know their behaviour isn't socially acceptable. I've had to deal with people yelling abuse at me from passing cars my whole life, happened to me today actually, but it is their failing not mine.
immature and shallow behavior, I never done this myself, and I know lots of girls that condemn this type of behavior, so you're right. Don't let it bother you, and buy mace. :-)
@NwZ2 --- I'm just having morning tea, and am interested in where this thread ends up... I do understand what you are trying to wrestle with. Perhaps you can have a think about two processes:
1. The 'outcome' of the process of male (and/or female) street harrasment; and what that entails;
2. What would be the best politics-ethics-law-judicial-educational-therapeutic-analytic-personal-societal method of keeping the processes of street harrasment 'in check';
Well said...Ella....Men are testorine demons,,,who should behave a bit better when it the company of a lady...maybee the men dont always think with their brains....there are places men can be like that, it is not in public. You should always speak your mind....men are nothing to be afraid of, women are stronger.
It's a sad pathetic and deeply misogynist means of male bonding, a way for men to let other men know that they are 'Manly'. Just fucking bullshit Machismo, all of it is sexual harassment however apparently 'jokey' it is - one should not laugh it off, this is the very sort of thing that maintains and perpetuates Patriarchy and Misogyny and is holding us back as Human beings. The sooner such bilge is not tolerated and thrown in the bin the better.
I agree 100 percent. It's tough because defending yourself can mean getting into a potentially dangerous situation... but I think there are some cases, like in the one you described, where asking them to stop could actually bring them a moment of clarity, esp. if it's more out of stupidity and aggression. I hate it when guys act that way, it's scary and threatening, but a lot of them are just trying to appear cool before their friends.
Welcome to NYC, Ella. You're obviously not from here lol. Stay away from Stanton street because Bodega Ramon will definitly yell " I Love You, Baby!!" just as you're innocently passing by.
whoa whoa!! ella you shouldnt reply those 14 year olds below, sarcastically or otherwise; now we all have to see their immaturity right below ur vid. Anyway, I'm a black student in an eastern european town, And you wont believe what we put up with 24/7. probably a different kind of evil from urs but sometimes you just have to endure. we share the world with 6 billion other people so some of them are bound to be crazy, like those 14 year olds in ur comment section.
My guess was that they want is just to see a smile, but some of the other comments help me understand the hostile kind a bit more, and most men have moments where they want to hate womankind (because you're all crazy). The human struggle for attention can sublimate into desperately strange outbursts, pretending to have power where there is none.
This kind of reaction is sometimes why I as a guy don't say a compliment to a nice lady. Sometimes it feels like if I say hey you look nice, I might be treated with some kind of nasty look and makes me feel like, aw what did I do. I know a few friends who do the same, saying nice dress, or cool scarf, and they were told off.
Just seems better to quietly appreciate the beautiful women around you.
@CradLeRcker there's nothing wrong with compliments, but they can seem threatening. Never use words like "sexy" or "hot stuff," that's scary. MOST IMPORTANT TIP: make eye contact! It's that simple. If you are looking at her and not her body, she will know you are being sincere. If you just do it off the cuff while she's walking down the street, she feels as though you've been watching her, and that's just creepy. quiet appreciation is also nice, but if you have feelings for a woman, speak up.
A hostile delivery by a guy is most likely due to trouble with a girl or wife. Guys try to vent their feelings by causing discomfort at any random female by harassing them in this way. I think the problem is exacerbated by mothers who teach their boys to look down on other women. Sort of like mother-in-law trouble that new wives experience.
I believe harassment goes on because girls also ignore it. Your approach is good. More girls should use your example and challenge offenders.
The best thing to do though is quite simply ignore them
Only on a rare occasion will they change their mind (like the one you mentioned) but the guys who say the worse comments won't care if your angry or not. They want the attention either from a girl or to show their guy friends how funny they can be.
Saying something back will just rally them up.
There's nothing wrong with realizing you're better then them and their petty comments aren't worth your time
It even starts young, you'll have middle school kids yelling stuff like imma get my dick all over that ass from the bus whether the girl is alone or with a boyfriend or w/e
I've had to deal with it a lot in concern to the female people in my life (mother, girlfriend, friend) the guys will go as far as following them to the house in their car saying to get in, or that they just wanna "Holla at chu"
Ella, you probably get hassle because you are young and attractive and there are lots of weirdos out there! I would imagine it is best to ignore nutters in the street! xx
The self-doubt you modestly express is one of the trillion and one things that makes women so extraordinary (superior?). Absolute certainty (Osama bin Laden) leads inevitably to error.
But, in this case especially, you have no need for self-doubt. You're right on all counts, in spades.
And there is zero hypocrisy on your part . . . just a diversity of men.
Some rare men do make genuine, non-sexual, supportive comments and then disappear. ("Don't worry, it will work out.")
Many men are genuinely hostile and abusive. ("Hey sexy, HONK, HONK, HONK, HONK!" . . . with the threat of sexual assault being the elephant in the room.)
And some men are victims of The Golden Rule gone horribly, horribly wrong. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If a hot, young, well-dressed woman walked up and said, "Hey, sexy, nice butt!," to a hideously ugly man, would it make him feel better about himself? The answer is: yes.
And the Bible teaches him to do the same to the hot, young, well-dressed woman. To make her feel as good as he would feel.
Unfortunately, obviously, it fails miserably because that's an overly literal interpretation of the Golden Rule.
Any man who doesn't understand sexual harassment should ask himself, 'If three guys came up to you and said you had a pretty mouth because they wanted to have anal sex with you, how would that make you feel?' Complimented? No. Frightened. Or annoyed. Or self-conscious.
That's the reason that women look self-conscious, annoyed, or even frightened.
Alternatively, just keep walking, smile, and make it a highlight of your day to know that you're better than some people in NYC who obviously have so many deficits in upbringing and social etiquette as to never have had an opportunity to learn how to best treat others.
It's probably a combination of content and conduct. If someone shouts something to someone they don't know and it is in a derogatory way, then there isn't really any surprise that you'd think they're being an ass.
If you're standing beside someone waiting for a bus, and begin to get into a conversation with someone, and compliment them for looking elegant or glamorous, then maybe that'd be a different thing that would be a genuinely liked thing. I don't really know as never partook in either.
I knew a woman once who lived in Inner City Sydney and was determined not to be harrassed if she was ever walking alone. She had an interesting method which involved pretending to be insane. She would talk to trees or kick the gutter or speak to an invisible person.
She was a bit of a wing-nut anyway, but that was her way of repelling that kind of harrassment.
Yelling at a woman is not a compliment. The guys saying the 'smile' or telling you that you are beautiful (which you are) are at least making an effort to be polite about admiring your looks.
Personally, I'd liove to see a woman turn and respond to guys yelling about their appearance with their own remarks. "And hello to you fatass" "Greetings neanderthal man" "My, you look like someone with a little prick" :-)
(cont'd.) If the place is crowed, there will probably even be people that silently think that. The world needs people not taking crap just because it could make them look bad to a small group of people. Sometimes you need to get your hands dirty to make a difference.
As for helpful advice: I thought for a minute the "don't feed the trolls" principle worked here, but this is real life and these people, while anonymous in identity, do show their real selves. They're not attempting to be likeable and don't know you, so why should you care if some asswipe finds you a bitch? I know it's part of secretly not wanting people to think bad of you, but it's inevitable. Call 'em out. Any woman who has suffered the same fate and hates it will find you courageou to do so.
Get an army of white, redheaded women that follow you around. If someone yells out "Yo, redhead!" or "Looking hot, white girl" at you, have one of them look and act offended. It's not like he can point into a crowd of redheads and say "No, I meant that one". Peace will be restored. Or get a sassy gay redheaded androgynous male friend. If someone yells "You're hot, redhead!", have your friend yell out "Are you talking to me? Are you a flaming homosexual?" It should shut them up. You're welcome.
Whether you want to call it pack mentality, machismo, chauvinism or anything else the simplest answer to it all is that some guys are just assholes. With exception of hiring a pro wrestler to run out an body slam every 3rd or 4th idiot that catcalls you I don't see an end to the problem. There are women that hear shouts and whistles and smile, It might be because they need attention and it might be because they are imagining the caller being body slammed in the street.
Guys develop these habits from high school, especially when your dealing with older guys. Many guys just never grow up and revert back to their high school days when they get together in packs, that's a group of 4 or more. Would they make those comments if they looked at you as someone's daughter? Someone's sister, aunt, ect, ect...? Would they like those comments being made to their own daughters?
Next time, turn around and ask that? Many guys will wake up when they realize you are a person.
Stop, and look at the men. Look them up and down, as though assessing their worth as a mate. Then laugh uproarously, as though you had never heard something so absurd, as you walk away.
I'd 100% agree with you. It's all about the word choice and delivery. Someone shouting across a street, "Hey Sexy!", does almost seem confrontational because it seems they want to get some sort of response out of you. Just be the bitch so that people get it's not always the best thing to do. Then if they start to be civil the bitchiness can go.
Hay Ella , You are right , that bull shit has been dead sence the 70's and what makes it bad is that the ones who do that are married still ... The smart ones know what to say to grab attention ! ! ! On the other hand the problem I have at work is a good looking female likes me but she has someone . What's f f f f about it , is she made it clear to all the other lady's that I am off the market ! OUCH ! ! ! .... So in respect there will always be a game as well as game players. be careful !
it's funny how men and women don't react the same way in similar situations. If I were walking down the street and some woman looked at me and said "hey gorgeous", I would look back at her and smile, and I would find that super cool. But then again, women don't do that to men. Women wanna be flattered, but in a civilised way, or they'll feel objectified. Men just don't care.
I think just completely ignore them, however hard it is, because any sign of acknowledgement just fuels them, they get any type of reaction they have done there job. If people stop reacting the might just stop.
As a guy i get embarrassed. I have a friend who gets a bit gobby around woman, the whole oioi and whistling, i make a point of appoligising to the woman and make my friend appoligise as well. He really hates it. but he never challenges me, because hes knows hes wrong.
As a guy I cringe when whenever my friend does this. He is also a married man
His intentions carry no weight or momentum more than a hundredth of a second and could be dismissed
If you would tell him that he is wrong, the line that is positive between "b**ch and she interested" is very fine. And its personal to him. So I think its very hard to tonally modulate a "one for all kind of answer" that says the right things
You look stunning and there will always be ADHD guys who cant control thmslves
There will always be that kind of useless idiots on the streets that trying to show themselves off by harrasing/insulting other people. And unfortunately, there is absolutely no way except beating the crap out of them, to teach them a lesson. Not that I ever beat one but this is the truth. Either they're going to realize how stupid what they are doing and stop or you are just going to teach them a lesson by using brute force. Either way, you'll be the one who loses though. Sad.
I'm not sure how or why guys can do it. Perhaps it is something like how kids tease other kids (you feel better by making others feel worse). Guys perhaps like to flex their "confidence" muscles. Perhaps hostility isn't a good word for it, aggression is better? Personally I can't honestly go up to a woman and give her even a genuine compliment for fear that it will seem like harassment, or just unwanted attention. I really wish there was a better way for both sides to negotiate this situation.
It's something that insecure males do, to try to feel powerful, and make others, as you say, feel like crap. Note how it's more often to happen, when insecure males are in a group, both for them to feel support from the other males, plus to act macho in front of the other males.
Anyone who supports this kind of harassment and hostility are assholes.
It could be jealousy, they see someone who looks more successful than they are so they make some derogatory remark about the way you look. Now they can delude themselves into thinking that they are better than you.
Or it's just standard misogyny, which unfortunately has no known cure.
There's a difference between a well delivered compliment, and moronic harrassment. As you say, it's about the word choice and the delivery - that is, the intent.
Personally, I've only ever complimented someone once, a female shop assistant who had an unusual (and pretty) name on her tag; I asked her how she pronounced it and then said I thought it was very pretty. And I left it at that. What she thought of my compliment I have no idea.
Were it me (were I a girl) my response would be to confront them and say as follows: Excuse me, but why do you feel it is appropriate to say what you said in the manner in which you said it? Were someone to do this to your mother, your girlfriend, or your sister, would you find it acceptable? Or is it because I am an anonymous face in a crowd that you feel you have the option to degrade me? Regardless, you have my attention. So what? What is it that you had to lewdly summon my attention for?
Ok, first off yes you are that hot, but that's beside the point. You summed it up at the end - let's treat each other with respect. Guys (or girls) can give respectful, non-demeaning compliments that makes all involved feel better. It's like a simple smile, or a "hi" or whatever. But to make someone feel uncomfortable? That's just a stupid power play, totally ignoring the other person as a person and treating them as an object. That's the difference for me. I dunno if that makes any sense...
I live in Brussels and what you said happens here as frequently. If you walk down the street feeling happy and confident it appears that those two adjectives on their own attract disgusting comments from men.
If you think about a stranger "wow she's hot" you should keep it to yourself. A smile could be nice but putting to words your own insight about someone's physical appearance is just as bad as saying "your face is ugly". It's indifferent whatever you say because just saying somethin is rude.
It sounds as though some men see a woman who is happy and confident and having a good day and the men just feel so much unconscious resentment that they have to lower her self-esteem.
I think that's a tragedy.
Lowering a complete stranger's self-esteem is the exact opposite of a "compliment". Why don't men get this? Why don't they listen? Nobody wants to feel like dirt. Especially on a -good- day.
I understand your humility with your looks, as I feel the same when complimented. I also agree that those directing comments your way about how good you look should employ manners, because it's simply uncouth just to yell at a person spewing vulgar bodily names in the intent of noting attractiveness. People need to consider the feelings of the recipient of such comments. Moral of the story: Think before you open your mouth. Now, how do we teach it to them?
Thank you, people who have commented so far, for your insights and civility. (Except the person who called me a dumb cunt, but, this being YouTube, we all knew that was going to happen...)
Future commenters, I'd love to hear your thoughts -- dissenting or otherwise -- but please continue in the constructive spirit of your predecessors.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Ella, you are looking at it wrong. You should feel complimented that you areso hot that makes guys go crazy for you on the streets. Yes, don't be a bitch.
@xtericx Thanks for bringing your voice to the debate. From my perspective: The fact that a random combination of genes got mashed together and resulted in my physicality does not allow me to exalt those who harass me about things I can't control.
Just wear a shirt that says something really, really awkward. It doesn't have to be true, but like, wear a shirt that says "I'm a bull dyke" or "I have genital warts".
No-one will hit on someone wearing a shirt like that.
Either that or walk around with your biggest, buffest friend and then people will be too afraid to say anything...
@florcita72 It's only if you REALLY have to. Like, people don't flirt with me, they yell out faggot and the likes, so I have to change what I do otherwise my friends won't walk around the city with me, they don't want to be called names like that.
I use the second method, but I think the first one might work...
I don't think they're trying to "seduce" any females with that, it's just that they feel it's normal, that noone would get offended by it.
It's true there're some that take it too far and make more than just a bad impression, thinking they're entitled to it. Overall It has a lot more to do with their social environment, where finding girls that actually shout back is common.
I'm not justifying them, but it is how they usually think. It's like being bully at a more open and public scale.
I've know a few guys who are like this. I think that they almost always make inappropriate comments to women when they are in male groups as some warped and immature display of bravado.
Those turkeys aren't worth a rats ass, especially Neanderthals like ArgentinoArio88 who HATES women because he fears them and he knows that if he spoke to a woman like that in public she would grind him under her heel.
People are different. I don't think there is a single answer that reaches across the spectrum. For some, it's a test of courage amongst friends or a conditioning from their upbringing. Neither of those even give you any real thought, it's all about them. Some probably use it to find women that are use to being degraded, while others merely don't know any better. No easy answer on how to deal with it, but I think you made an excellent point about the delivery.
I absolutely love this type of Vlog. Great job, interesting. And by the way, it's ok to offended by a total lack of class....... As a man, please accept my apology for the thug like way some men behave. Lastly, yes, you ARE charming and beautiful.
Guys yelling out lewd comments shows a total lack of respect for women. There is a big difference between complimenting a woman and disrespecting her. If it were a group of women acting the same way towards me, I'd probably react the same way. I'm a person not an object.
Ella you're not a bitch, but as to how to get through to these guys? It's a tough question.. Personally, I try and be the type of guy I want others to be.
Can you name some male role models? How many? Short list isn't it..
For the decent guys we really need to step up. Reading this I know there's others like me out there. If you're in a group and this happens, tell the guy doing it he's better than that. Give him ideas, @markiduval, talking to girls is just crazy enough to work!
@AussieEskimo Yeah, I'm not sure why a guy would think it's a complement to shout out, "you're hot" to a girl he doesn't know. What's she supposed to say in response? "Thanks! I did it myself!" or... "Thanks! I didn't have any self-worth until you validated my physical appearance that I was born with and was thus beyond my control!"
*Insert generic comment about how you should appreciate it*
lol no, but on a real note, look at it this way: How would it feel like to *never* get any of this attention (albeit awkward and in the wrong form), especially if you attribute it to something silly like looks or weight? Just a positive spin :P
@NwZ2 I appreciate you trying to find the positive side, but I don't associate that kind of "attention" with any sort of validation or encouragement of me as a person. Quite the opposite. Street harassment negates the sentience of the woman involved. And "silly" things like looks and weight carry a lot of social and political meaning in this weird world.
If you're interested in finding out more about the perspective I'm talking about, I recommend you read up on the "Male Gaze".
@ellamorton --- I hear what you are saying about the 'Male Gaze' -- and as a counter-point: Hope Sandoval (ex-singer of Mazzy Star) has a really nice tune called ' A Feeling of Gaze'. She oozes a wonderful feminine energy that echoes throughout her life's work - becuase it respects introspection on intimacy to the highest degree.
@ellamorton Yea, I'm familiar with the concepts and ideas (though not necessarily the reading material) and so I understand what you're talking about, but my concern is this: What other spaces are there available for a non-oppressive discourse/sociological interaction between man and woman? I mean, i've heard views so radical as saying "the physical act of sex in and of itself is an act of rape"'; its a problem that's difficult to pinpoint but is almost inevitable and hard to avoid
@ellamorton I'm not trying to make any kind of essentialist argument here, but we can't just ontologically wish away gender categories intrinsic to the way we interact as a social species, nor the biological/physical existence of the difference between man and woman, so what kind of meaningful interaction can take place outside of this "totalizing" gaze. Sure this particular example (or even type of interaction) is a bad one, but I think the question still remains
@ellamorton I mean, within the process of socialization, we pick up these behaviors we call "gender", but its the fact *that* we pick them up that society is the way it is today. What would a society look like without there being such a thing as "gender"? Does the concept "confidence" even make sense outside of context of social interaction, and if not, what would be the effects of fundamentally changing the way men and woman interact with each other (both good and bad)?
I'm sorry, I know I'm going all over the place on this one, but I want to appropriately convey this point. I'm going to have to go to Slavoj Zizek (and his book called: Violence), to a part where he talks about racism (since this is a question concerning oppression, and thus being a commonality here): he says that it did not matter that certain intellectuals (writing on issue of race) recognized the factual equality of the races: in effect, they *were* unequal at the SYMBOLIC level
Six times in one day?? God, where do you live? This has happened to me, and I react the same way you do. I find it to be totally disrespectful, and if nothing else, obnoxious.
orphansparrow2 2 months ago in playlist More videos from ellamorton
Ella in Atlanta you never see this behavior, so rest assured there are places where it doesn't happen...
theflorgeormix 5 months ago
Comment removed
asafox 5 months ago
somehow, even though I was born as male, i feel like i can totally share your pain.
I probably can't really...
but i was in similar situations.
and I've had many female friends talk about this in groups I've been part of.
personally i think that humans have an innate need for sympathy.
a need to make others feel the way they do.
even if it's crappy.
and i think guys and girls have different ways of pulling it off with regards to strangers in a public setting.
sharing the pain is what all seek.
asafox 5 months ago
"I don't wanna seem as I'm perceiving myself as a supermodel"
I'm very happy you aren't a model bc that life seems to be....double edged...and vacuously stupefying, but you probably could be if you wanted to.
I'm stating this as fact - beauty can be both a boon and a nuisance. I'm not defending the people yelling after you, but unfortunately I don't think they are unaware it's unwelcome, it's just they don't care. Assholes exist and that isn't changing. And you are entitled to your feelings.
Snagabott 5 months ago
I think most guys that whistle or comment about a woman's looks on the street just want to have their "rooster moment". Y'know, strut a bit & feel more manly.
Depends on the situation I guess.
Katfellow 9 months ago
To all these boys calling us womyn "girls", first off, that is the first inkling to the problem. Sexual harassment is not about compliments or,attraction, it is about degrading and humiliating womyn to build up the low self esteem of males, just like when they call us girls. Just like with rape, it is about control and intimidation. That is why regardless of how you feel about the "compliments" or how you look, they do it. That is why it happens to all womyn regardless of how we look.
TheHoeDownTV 10 months ago
I only do it to girls that i see that are kinda average- below average like you, and girls that dont intimidate me, and i do it not to compliment you, but to make you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable, I dont want to have sex with you if i say it. Its for fun, more fun for me though... and i still do it , and yes i know it makes me look bad
stfuBUDDY 10 months ago
Hmmm, A withering stare. or a snort of derision.
But i have to say I've never had this problem, as I'm 180cms tall, and 100kg, and male.
leapoffaith20 11 months ago
Catcalling: A sad, awkward attempt to get a beard?
SabreKitteh 1 year ago
This is messed up!
Ladies, please believe, all guys are NOT like this. Please understand this. Thanks.
DesertLaser 1 year ago
Whatever becky.
hastious 1 year ago
If you get a street call show them your tits
TehCacti 1 year ago
I think most cat calls are when guys are with their friends. They're trying to show that they're not afraid of girls. I don't bother because my friends already know that I'm afraid of girls. The best thing you can do is reward the shy guys who just smile or make subtle eye contact. Smile back, say hello, etc.
smokehouseflannigan 1 year ago 5
@smokehouseflannigan "The best thing you can do is reward the shy guys who just smile or make subtle eye contact. Smile back, say hello, etc." Oh lord, reward you for doing what you are supposed to do by being polite and treating womyn like the human beings we are supposed to be treated as? You sound like a rapist/ stalker.
TheHoeDownTV 10 months ago
@TheHoeDownTV I'm outside your house right now
smokehouseflannigan 10 months ago
How would these harrassing guys feel if they walked past a gay bar and were hollered at? Do they still think it's a compliment?
ozgday 1 year ago
@ozgday If it was a full on cleevage lesbian bar I'm sure most straight guys would be perfectly alright with that ;)
sonicstep 8 months ago
i wouldn't be as nice as you were to that one guy, i'd tell them to fuck off. there's -no- reason why you or any woman should have to put up with this sexist bull.
Aberjan 1 year ago
Unfortunately, there will always been morons like this, perhaps its a Mating call for people of similar low I.Q. I would say a bit like Monkeys, but that is insulting to Monkeys.
My solution to the problem (Clearly, I do not have this problem, I have the "Chav" problem, and they are very hostile - Google Chav, if you don't know!) - BIG HEADPHONES and an ipod.
djmatt82 1 year ago
I am not familiar with this sort of stuff at all. Maybe it's geographical location, for me, the situation when a douche guy compliments a girl on the street in this "Hey gorgeous" kind of way is something that I associate with movies. I've seen it happen in clubs and bars on occasions, but not once on the street.
ArtypNk 1 year ago
I thought your response, "Please don't do that" was perfect. Hold your head high with class and confidence. :-)
algrinch 1 year ago 2
Where I grew up you couldn't walk a block with out this happening at least once. Only if you said anything back or even made eye contact they'd follow you trying to talk for the next block. I just learned to ignore it.
But you shouldn't feel like a humorless bitch, it isn't a genuine compliment, it is harassment and the sole purpose being to make you feel powerless - the irony being that it just makes woman think of them as less of a man and more of a irritating fly.
pyromaniacchica 1 year ago
I don't know why I din't think of this before ! when they say something at you and it don't please you , just turn to them a bit and grab yourself like you got a package and adjust it around ! the others will think your in drag ! ! ! that should stop them !
wackattack180 1 year ago
LOL @ Rwrr face at the end.
The cat call is a display of desire. In the animal kingdom males put on displays (like a peacock) to attract females whom they detect is in heat. While most humans do not follow all their primal instincts, seeing a beautiful woman passing by can still trigger an uncontrollable display in some.
sth128 1 year ago
Maybe more women ought to do the same to men; I know I wouldn't mind it.
herenthere 1 year ago
Guys do it because they are either too afraid to actually approach an attractive women or they are chauvinistic, obnoxious jerks trying to show off with their friends. It does degrade women, you should pity them rather than taking it personally. You can feel good about yourself when a guy actually gives you a genuine compliment because harassment is totally different and offensive.
Ella so what is the best way to approach an attractive women such as yourself?
scotty0 1 year ago
Men who do this are bullies. If a stranger tells you that you look nice or pretty, it is a compliment. Cat calls, name-calling and other intimidating behaviour are not flattery. Men know a random woman is not that likely to retaliate even if she is strong enough she was most likely raised to be polite. They are bullying cowards. Confronting them sometimes works, ignoring them or laughing in their face also pisses them off.
LindaDanvers 1 year ago
I'm late to the party and too lazy to read all the comments.
I don't think there's hypocrisy in taking a complement from someone who actually talks to you like a human being in a pleasant and approachable voice and not wanting to be catcalled like a sideshow attraction. That's honestly the difference to me. One is approaching you respectfully, as a person, and paying a complement - attempting to engage you. The other is screaming and gesturing at you, treating you as less than human.
rkm0001 1 year ago
People wants to be funny, "hollering" at girls provides laughs for some. I know girls want to wear what they want and not be bothered but if you look like your asking for it, then your asking for it in some peoples minds.
hermanoguzman 1 year ago
I think its also the look. Check out SNL's Tom Brady Sexual Harassment
Joezales 1 year ago
I completely agree with you Ella.
Its all on the wording and the way they deliver it.
Clementine648 1 year ago
HEY THERE HOT STUFF!! why dont you take off your shirt and make yourself comfortable.
IMasterbatedToThis 1 year ago
@IMasterbatedToThis oh the irony!!!!
SuperGiantdouche 1 year ago
you were harassed. it would be harassment if they followed you around and continued to say things.
the guys must have been blind anyways.
t1mTV 1 year ago
Dear Ella,
I don't know why men do this, maybe it's a try to control something they can't. It's interesting for me that you're vlogging about this.
I'm trying to be nice to women.
Often they love me madly after I lose my interest.
Googlesuperstar
GoogleSuperstar 1 year ago
Some of the cats on the corner need to listen to a couple of songs. One is sung by Miss Aretha called "RESPECT!"
The other one is by The Staple Singers and it's called "Respect Yourself".
I think the idea of street harassment is a tribal thing and it goes back to the Stone Age. Guys do it as a way of bonding with the other cave men with them.
Let's take the average cave man at home listening to his STEREO.
He get tired of bein' alone, man, so he want to go out and do his thing.
But it's wrong.
CaptKundalini 1 year ago
You have an opportunity to positively address this issue every time something like this happens. You can explain to the man that he is going about things the wrong way. Maybe give him some pointers on how to approach women. However, if you are encountering this six times a day and you try to educate everyone of these guys, you'll never have time for anything else. You also have to consider that men in groups are not open to coaching. We have to save face in front of our boys, you know.
JosephCheetah 1 year ago
Of course, we are also trying to get a reaction. A good reaction is preffered, but a bad reaction is still better than no reaction. An interesting question is this: A man might pay you a polite and well formed compliment, and you would feel flattered. A second man would call from behind you and comment on the sway of your hips, and you would feel insulted. Is their intent really that different? Who is to say that the well spoken man doesn't also want to do dirty things to your body?
JosephCheetah 1 year ago
I think that about half of the reason why men do this is that we are subject to our wolfpack mentality. When you're out with your boys you wanna act like one of the guys. Society would have us believe that being a guy means being aggressive towards women. Maybe you've received obscene advances from guys who are by themselves, but I would be willing to wager that the majority come from men in groups. I say this because I only ever make cat calls when I'm out with my crew.
JosephCheetah 1 year ago
@JosephCheetah lol!! it started well then descended into depravity!!!!! :D
SuperGiantdouche 1 year ago
wow, i really didnt know woman took it that serieus.
ClankCR 1 year ago
Guys who do stuff like that are mentally adolescent. They are the same type to start a fight if someone did that to their mom or sister with them nearby. I'm glad you said something!
kc0wqh 1 year ago
I would say that all of the people that I care the most about in my life are women, and if anyone fracks with them, I would kick some butt. therefor there is no way I could treat any woman (or any person) that way. give them hall Ella
P.S. you are a beautiful person starting from the inside and working outwards.
TheCVCG 1 year ago
I've actually seen girls flattered by that approach of yelling and touching. Of course they're most likely girls with low self esteem looking for any type of validation from the opposite sex. But then again the guys who do the cat calling aren't exactly looking for their intellectual equals. I usually step in when I feel the girl can't get out of the situation on her own... One time I was even laughed at (by the girl) for doing so... so confused
Quixotic1018 1 year ago
Scenario : The men, in a group will wolf whistle or say something to a woman passing by. Now from a 3rd party perspective it looks like the men are at a zoo & the woman they see is the exhibit.
I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but if you try & see it from my view point, it can be seen like that & I'm guessing, the woman feels like she's safe going about her day & when this happens she immediately feels as though she's an exhibit & therefore instantly out of her comfort zone.
miles2057 1 year ago
Is the difference between acceptable types of street calls really the difference between ugly guys and pretty boys?
greedyfoot 1 year ago 13
@greedyfoot spot on with that comment, ive always said the difference between a "perve" and a "cheeky" guy, is if he is attractive or not!, i understand that some guys who are attractive can still be "sleazy" but for the vast majority of cases, if the woman finds the guy attractive then it seems its all down to him being "cheeky" as apposed to a big fat sweaty "perve", cant have two sets of rules!
SuperGiantdouche 1 year ago
@SuperGiantdouche I think you're absolutely right about this - cheeky vs pervert or creepy vs intriguing. What fundamentally is the difference between "cat calls" and a generic compliment like "Hi, sexy" or "lookin' good!" from a passing stranger?
otheus 1 year ago
@greedyfoot I think your comment speaks volumes. As I have always said, rape, sex harassment, male entitlement, double standards are all about men wanting womyn for their reproductive benefit by controlling our bodies. That is why womyn get punished for selling our pussies while men walk awat scot free for rape since the womyn gets blamed for her morals, for what she wore. Just ask me. You know what? Let me ask you this? If some ugly MAN was chasing you, honking at you, would you like it?
TheHoeDownTV 10 months ago
@TheHoeDownTV What, oh... a womyn... someone who devalues rape by comparing it to cat calls... bet almost rape is in same catagory.... so my only response. Man, Christian Bale is such a hero, when his mom and sister gave him lip he knew how to handle it. Also, go fuck yourself you evil whore. Feel free to go to a rape clinic and tell them how you understand how it felt, since some guy whistled at you earlier.
greedyfoot 10 months ago
@greedyfoot You accuse me of "devaluing rape" yet you advocate violenxe against womyn and call me a "whore" maliciously in context? Yeah, you hate womyn alright. I sure know how to pull the bull oit of ppl's eyes and show their true colors. Your mom should have aborted you! We womyn control LIFE, you know that, BOY!
TheHoeDownTV 10 months ago
@greedyfoot As I said before. Sexual/ street harassment is, just like rape, about power and control. Just like rape, they gain the trust of the victim or do it in an isolated area. All of these sexual harassers/ predators on here are proof of this.
TheHoeDownTV 10 months ago
Comment removed
xpack10 1 year ago
My take on this behavior is that it reinforces masculinity (as defined as the collection of ideas within the dominant culture about how men should act or feel) in a group of men who's culture calls for constant overt expressions of group identity.
These men are not hollering at girls to seduce them, they do it to communicate to their peers the message of dominance over women, a message largely incorporated into many cultures' ideas of masculinity.
xpack10 1 year ago
Yelling at a woman as a seduction technique = doing it wrong.
duplicatehelix 1 year ago
Just hit them in the face with a cricket bat, and tell them you thought they were zombies due to their mindless drivel. Then hit them again.
InfinityxShark 1 year ago
Jerry Seinfeld in first ever Seinfeld episode (pilot): "Men are not subtle — men are obvious. Women know what men want. Men know what men want. What do we want? We want women! It's the only thing we know for sure: we want women! How do we get women? Oh, we don't know that. After that first step, we have no idea. This is why you see men honking their car horns, yelling from construction sites; these are the best ideas we've had so far."
DGC019 1 year ago 18
completely agree.
there's no way I'll respond to a male who decides to treat me like a piece of meat.
it's all in the delivery.
MireilleeL 1 year ago
completely agree.
There's no way I'll respond positively to a male who decides to treat me like a piece of meet. it's all in the delivery.
MireilleeL 1 year ago
you're sexy when you're angry. ;)
namelesssavage 1 year ago
I totally agree with you on this issue. Many girls just laugh and smile when a guy on the street leers though I'm sure they find that anything but deserving of such a response. I've taken to just giving the guy a hard look, because though I'd like to retaliate, that really is far from smart to do in such a situation thus making the woman feel degraded. Generally guys who catcall are in groups and often times they win the attention of their friends, but disregard social etiquette and respect.
LeParaluieIrlandais 1 year ago
Hello,Ella.
Those men are not well schooled on basic human courtesy. Stopping, and staring at them, like caged zoo animals, may send the best answer. Then move on. You should not CARE if they see you as a "humorless bitch". They are not important to your future life. Those who comment nicely and pleasantly should be thanked, but move on.
Blargaldalien 1 year ago
It's so interesting to read all your responses! Thank you. My own sister disagrees with me on this issue, so the plurality of opinion among men AND women fascinates me.
ellamorton 1 year ago
[2/2]
...who enjoyed that music would not be bothered, whereas people who disliked it would find it irritating. I personally would never do anything like that and have no friends who would do that, for me it's just showing a whole load of disrespect to describe someone as 'hot' or 'smoking'.
I guess you prefer beautiful because it implies something deeper than just superficial aesthetics.
I could write a lot more, but I am really, really tired. Smile! XD
AlasdhairMM 1 year ago
[1/2]
I think it depends on the sleaziness of the comment... Describing someone as beautiful is on a whole other level than saying that they are 'hot'. It's not as simple as that though... I have friends who actually enjoy those kind of comments and other friends who actually don't feel they get enough.
In the end I think it's about how it makes the recipient feel... I mean, not everyone enjoys the music of a particular band. Say someone was driving by in a car playing that music, people...
AlasdhairMM 1 year ago
Pt2. I've been told by (intelligent) girlfriends and other women that random, strange men giving them attention in public -- from cat-calls to spilling coffee to oblique stares -- was quite flattering and day-making. I've also heard reactions similar to yours. What should a man do knowing both reactions are possible? Maybe you should walk up to a man who DIDNT notice you and ask him "(1) Do you think I'm attractive?" and if he says "yes" then ask "(2) Why didn't you stare at/call after me?"
otheus 1 year ago
The debate over life, the universe, and everything... could you have waited at least till today to post this? Sit in a cafe in south Italy or Greece and just watch how the men persist after a young woman. Now visit an aviary and listen to the peacocks and their 3-minute croons to the hens - plumage isn't enough! Back 2 NYC - the melting pot of cultures, 90% of which are male-dominated. Those men being on a low rung of cultural evolution, are expressing appreciation of and longing for your beauty
otheus 1 year ago
men are pigs.... we cant help it, and seriously, would you really want it any other way? There's a 3rd option - give the pigs what they want and have fun doing it, give them a quick cheap thrill and flash a cheesecake pose.... opps, I'm being a pig. but that's what we want, seems pretty innocent from here.... it's just underware
dirtTdude 1 year ago
I agree its really dumb and im a little ashamed of my fellow men for that crap. Its a bit different for being a guy and walking places. Ive been shouted horrible names and I have gotten hit walking past guys on the street in Ireland. Its just a horrible situation all around.
shanepatrickfagan 1 year ago
Any particular type of person doing this or just a mix? You had a very good response. If more woman would response that way, it would happen less.
I think if the comment is about from the neck up, it's person to person and could be said to anyone without issue: "Smile, the day's as gorgeous as you are."
Commenting about attributes below the neck is demeaning both to you and any woman that person knows personally because he's being such a douche.
ujdo 1 year ago
I think that what every man more or less elaborately wonders is: If you see a woman in the street, and she's walking past you and then away, what do you do? I can't yell things. So? Should I follow her? Probably not. Should I just let go and hope to meet her socially in the near future? Not terribly effective. So? Men don't feel that any approach is acceptable, so perhaps they elect one that is overtly arrogant.
theburt83 1 year ago
C) I wrote a bunch of suggestions for you on 'pressthe' a couple of days back... lets just say my spidey sense is acting up...
I'm off to watch movies for the rest of the day (no more research and writing for me today).... its Candian Thankgsgiving long weekend... and I have a Turkey to stuff as well....
jengelele 1 year ago
B. Trauma: Talk to someone who you trust and begin the process of healing and learning. There are professionals who can help, but there is also the danger of being re-traumatized when you are 'raw' (eg. Nazi's showing up in your comment section). May I recommend that if you don't feel like eating and have pain in your solar plexus - this is a sign of (re)traumatization. The best thing you can do is make ginger tea (from real ginger) for the pain - and perhaps watch an old episode of 'Allo Allo'
jengelele 1 year ago
Some possible solutions:
A) The Police: If the same person (or group) engages in this behaviour 'more than once' - depending on local laws, this should be grounds for charging them with 'criminal harrassment'. If you tell a police officer that you fear for your safety, and this has happened more than once - then antistalking/harrasment laws kick in. At least you can turn-the tables on this person through the hell of the criminal justice system - even without jail. Don't forget this.
jengelele 1 year ago
I've found that in every population there will always be a portion that are complete morons that are best ignored and pitied. As long as they limit their abuse to words, I tend to just ignore them. There is no point getting yourself worked up over someone who clearly doesn't have the intelligence to know their behaviour isn't socially acceptable. I've had to deal with people yelling abuse at me from passing cars my whole life, happened to me today actually, but it is their failing not mine.
DJAngelusZero 1 year ago
immature and shallow behavior, I never done this myself, and I know lots of girls that condemn this type of behavior, so you're right. Don't let it bother you, and buy mace. :-)
OkNowImWatching 1 year ago
/wall of text crits the comments section for 9999 damage.
This thread dies.
NwZ2 1 year ago
@NwZ2 --- I'm just having morning tea, and am interested in where this thread ends up... I do understand what you are trying to wrestle with. Perhaps you can have a think about two processes:
1. The 'outcome' of the process of male (and/or female) street harrasment; and what that entails;
2. What would be the best politics-ethics-law-judicial-educational-therapeutic-analytic-personal-societal method of keeping the processes of street harrasment 'in check';
3. The difference between 1 & 2?
jengelele 1 year ago
Girls never yell 'Hey Sexy' to me when i walk down the street :(
T1carus 1 year ago
Well said...Ella....Men are testorine demons,,,who should behave a bit better when it the company of a lady...maybee the men dont always think with their brains....there are places men can be like that, it is not in public. You should always speak your mind....men are nothing to be afraid of, women are stronger.
christophe6672 1 year ago
I think its just guys showing how masculine they are, or maybe just to amuse themselves.
blah22322 1 year ago
It's a sad pathetic and deeply misogynist means of male bonding, a way for men to let other men know that they are 'Manly'. Just fucking bullshit Machismo, all of it is sexual harassment however apparently 'jokey' it is - one should not laugh it off, this is the very sort of thing that maintains and perpetuates Patriarchy and Misogyny and is holding us back as Human beings. The sooner such bilge is not tolerated and thrown in the bin the better.
TenderHistoryInRust 1 year ago
I agree 100 percent. It's tough because defending yourself can mean getting into a potentially dangerous situation... but I think there are some cases, like in the one you described, where asking them to stop could actually bring them a moment of clarity, esp. if it's more out of stupidity and aggression. I hate it when guys act that way, it's scary and threatening, but a lot of them are just trying to appear cool before their friends.
shethewriter 1 year ago
Welcome to NYC, Ella. You're obviously not from here lol. Stay away from Stanton street because Bodega Ramon will definitly yell " I Love You, Baby!!" just as you're innocently passing by.
usmc212 1 year ago
whoa whoa!! ella you shouldnt reply those 14 year olds below, sarcastically or otherwise; now we all have to see their immaturity right below ur vid. Anyway, I'm a black student in an eastern european town, And you wont believe what we put up with 24/7. probably a different kind of evil from urs but sometimes you just have to endure. we share the world with 6 billion other people so some of them are bound to be crazy, like those 14 year olds in ur comment section.
altostreeter 1 year ago
My guess was that they want is just to see a smile, but some of the other comments help me understand the hostile kind a bit more, and most men have moments where they want to hate womankind (because you're all crazy). The human struggle for attention can sublimate into desperately strange outbursts, pretending to have power where there is none.
The screamer ending scared the poo out of me!
FluffyBunniesOnFire 1 year ago
This kind of reaction is sometimes why I as a guy don't say a compliment to a nice lady. Sometimes it feels like if I say hey you look nice, I might be treated with some kind of nasty look and makes me feel like, aw what did I do. I know a few friends who do the same, saying nice dress, or cool scarf, and they were told off.
Just seems better to quietly appreciate the beautiful women around you.
CradLeRcker 1 year ago
@CradLeRcker there's nothing wrong with compliments, but they can seem threatening. Never use words like "sexy" or "hot stuff," that's scary. MOST IMPORTANT TIP: make eye contact! It's that simple. If you are looking at her and not her body, she will know you are being sincere. If you just do it off the cuff while she's walking down the street, she feels as though you've been watching her, and that's just creepy. quiet appreciation is also nice, but if you have feelings for a woman, speak up.
shethewriter 1 year ago
A hostile delivery by a guy is most likely due to trouble with a girl or wife. Guys try to vent their feelings by causing discomfort at any random female by harassing them in this way. I think the problem is exacerbated by mothers who teach their boys to look down on other women. Sort of like mother-in-law trouble that new wives experience.
I believe harassment goes on because girls also ignore it. Your approach is good. More girls should use your example and challenge offenders.
rizwan1983 1 year ago
The best thing to do though is quite simply ignore them
Only on a rare occasion will they change their mind (like the one you mentioned) but the guys who say the worse comments won't care if your angry or not. They want the attention either from a girl or to show their guy friends how funny they can be.
Saying something back will just rally them up.
There's nothing wrong with realizing you're better then them and their petty comments aren't worth your time
unorthodoxJ 1 year ago
It's a big problem we have to deal with
It even starts young, you'll have middle school kids yelling stuff like imma get my dick all over that ass from the bus whether the girl is alone or with a boyfriend or w/e
I've had to deal with it a lot in concern to the female people in my life (mother, girlfriend, friend) the guys will go as far as following them to the house in their car saying to get in, or that they just wanna "Holla at chu"
unorthodoxJ 1 year ago
Ella, you probably get hassle because you are young and attractive and there are lots of weirdos out there! I would imagine it is best to ignore nutters in the street! xx
cricketbat08 1 year ago
More than likely they are doing it to look big in front of there friends.
SirKnobofCheese 1 year ago
Ella!
The self-doubt you modestly express is one of the trillion and one things that makes women so extraordinary (superior?). Absolute certainty (Osama bin Laden) leads inevitably to error.
But, in this case especially, you have no need for self-doubt. You're right on all counts, in spades.
And there is zero hypocrisy on your part . . . just a diversity of men.
ReliableInsider 1 year ago
@ReliableInsider
Some rare men do make genuine, non-sexual, supportive comments and then disappear. ("Don't worry, it will work out.")
Many men are genuinely hostile and abusive. ("Hey sexy, HONK, HONK, HONK, HONK!" . . . with the threat of sexual assault being the elephant in the room.)
ReliableInsider 1 year ago
@ReliableInsider
And some men are victims of The Golden Rule gone horribly, horribly wrong. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If a hot, young, well-dressed woman walked up and said, "Hey, sexy, nice butt!," to a hideously ugly man, would it make him feel better about himself? The answer is: yes.
And the Bible teaches him to do the same to the hot, young, well-dressed woman. To make her feel as good as he would feel.
ReliableInsider 1 year ago
@ReliableInsider
Unfortunately, obviously, it fails miserably because that's an overly literal interpretation of the Golden Rule.
Any man who doesn't understand sexual harassment should ask himself, 'If three guys came up to you and said you had a pretty mouth because they wanted to have anal sex with you, how would that make you feel?' Complimented? No. Frightened. Or annoyed. Or self-conscious.
That's the reason that women look self-conscious, annoyed, or even frightened.
ReliableInsider 1 year ago
Alternatively, just keep walking, smile, and make it a highlight of your day to know that you're better than some people in NYC who obviously have so many deficits in upbringing and social etiquette as to never have had an opportunity to learn how to best treat others.
tyronelab 1 year ago
It's probably a combination of content and conduct. If someone shouts something to someone they don't know and it is in a derogatory way, then there isn't really any surprise that you'd think they're being an ass.
If you're standing beside someone waiting for a bus, and begin to get into a conversation with someone, and compliment them for looking elegant or glamorous, then maybe that'd be a different thing that would be a genuinely liked thing. I don't really know as never partook in either.
tyronelab 1 year ago
There's nothing wrong with standing up against that kind of attention, if people think you're a humourless bitch then that's their problem really :D
Also, love your genius replies to some of the comments xD
Raider655 1 year ago
I knew a woman once who lived in Inner City Sydney and was determined not to be harrassed if she was ever walking alone. She had an interesting method which involved pretending to be insane. She would talk to trees or kick the gutter or speak to an invisible person.
She was a bit of a wing-nut anyway, but that was her way of repelling that kind of harrassment.
wonderbouy 1 year ago
Yelling at a woman is not a compliment. The guys saying the 'smile' or telling you that you are beautiful (which you are) are at least making an effort to be polite about admiring your looks.
Personally, I'd liove to see a woman turn and respond to guys yelling about their appearance with their own remarks. "And hello to you fatass" "Greetings neanderthal man" "My, you look like someone with a little prick" :-)
wasteofbreath 1 year ago
(cont'd.) If the place is crowed, there will probably even be people that silently think that. The world needs people not taking crap just because it could make them look bad to a small group of people. Sometimes you need to get your hands dirty to make a difference.
TPIMaster 1 year ago
As for helpful advice: I thought for a minute the "don't feed the trolls" principle worked here, but this is real life and these people, while anonymous in identity, do show their real selves. They're not attempting to be likeable and don't know you, so why should you care if some asswipe finds you a bitch? I know it's part of secretly not wanting people to think bad of you, but it's inevitable. Call 'em out. Any woman who has suffered the same fate and hates it will find you courageou to do so.
TPIMaster 1 year ago
Get an army of white, redheaded women that follow you around. If someone yells out "Yo, redhead!" or "Looking hot, white girl" at you, have one of them look and act offended. It's not like he can point into a crowd of redheads and say "No, I meant that one". Peace will be restored. Or get a sassy gay redheaded androgynous male friend. If someone yells "You're hot, redhead!", have your friend yell out "Are you talking to me? Are you a flaming homosexual?" It should shut them up. You're welcome.
TPIMaster 1 year ago
Your question really is, where did all the gentlemen go?
GordonWolters 1 year ago 2
Whether you want to call it pack mentality, machismo, chauvinism or anything else the simplest answer to it all is that some guys are just assholes. With exception of hiring a pro wrestler to run out an body slam every 3rd or 4th idiot that catcalls you I don't see an end to the problem. There are women that hear shouts and whistles and smile, It might be because they need attention and it might be because they are imagining the caller being body slammed in the street.
imbadwrench 1 year ago
Don't take a shower and gain 100 pounds That'll stop those nasty complements. How dare they call you sexy. those animals
slugbucket 1 year ago
Guys develop these habits from high school, especially when your dealing with older guys. Many guys just never grow up and revert back to their high school days when they get together in packs, that's a group of 4 or more. Would they make those comments if they looked at you as someone's daughter? Someone's sister, aunt, ect, ect...? Would they like those comments being made to their own daughters?
Next time, turn around and ask that? Many guys will wake up when they realize you are a person.
DVdaniels 1 year ago
Stop, and look at the men. Look them up and down, as though assessing their worth as a mate. Then laugh uproarously, as though you had never heard something so absurd, as you walk away.
Raphtyr 1 year ago
I'd 100% agree with you. It's all about the word choice and delivery. Someone shouting across a street, "Hey Sexy!", does almost seem confrontational because it seems they want to get some sort of response out of you. Just be the bitch so that people get it's not always the best thing to do. Then if they start to be civil the bitchiness can go.
willagdeacon 1 year ago
Probably they just want to look cool to their friends.
Jarudin 1 year ago
Hay Ella , You are right , that bull shit has been dead sence the 70's and what makes it bad is that the ones who do that are married still ... The smart ones know what to say to grab attention ! ! ! On the other hand the problem I have at work is a good looking female likes me but she has someone . What's f f f f about it , is she made it clear to all the other lady's that I am off the market ! OUCH ! ! ! .... So in respect there will always be a game as well as game players. be careful !
wackattack180 1 year ago
it's funny how men and women don't react the same way in similar situations. If I were walking down the street and some woman looked at me and said "hey gorgeous", I would look back at her and smile, and I would find that super cool. But then again, women don't do that to men. Women wanna be flattered, but in a civilised way, or they'll feel objectified. Men just don't care.
fmackert2 1 year ago
I think just completely ignore them, however hard it is, because any sign of acknowledgement just fuels them, they get any type of reaction they have done there job. If people stop reacting the might just stop.
As a guy i get embarrassed. I have a friend who gets a bit gobby around woman, the whole oioi and whistling, i make a point of appoligising to the woman and make my friend appoligise as well. He really hates it. but he never challenges me, because hes knows hes wrong.
shompy1 1 year ago 2
As a guy I cringe when whenever my friend does this. He is also a married man
His intentions carry no weight or momentum more than a hundredth of a second and could be dismissed
If you would tell him that he is wrong, the line that is positive between "b**ch and she interested" is very fine. And its personal to him. So I think its very hard to tonally modulate a "one for all kind of answer" that says the right things
You look stunning and there will always be ADHD guys who cant control thmslves
CognosSquare 1 year ago
@3:50, because female prefer to get called pretty then sexy? shrug
leungclj 1 year ago
There will always be that kind of useless idiots on the streets that trying to show themselves off by harrasing/insulting other people. And unfortunately, there is absolutely no way except beating the crap out of them, to teach them a lesson. Not that I ever beat one but this is the truth. Either they're going to realize how stupid what they are doing and stop or you are just going to teach them a lesson by using brute force. Either way, you'll be the one who loses though. Sad.
NukaCoke 1 year ago
Google for "Jerry Seinfeld on Men and Women" he will help you understand why do men do this :)
PS: You have to admit that in real life we behave way better than here...
jezier 1 year ago 2
I'm not sure how or why guys can do it. Perhaps it is something like how kids tease other kids (you feel better by making others feel worse). Guys perhaps like to flex their "confidence" muscles. Perhaps hostility isn't a good word for it, aggression is better? Personally I can't honestly go up to a woman and give her even a genuine compliment for fear that it will seem like harassment, or just unwanted attention. I really wish there was a better way for both sides to negotiate this situation.
RelativelyNormal 1 year ago
It's something that insecure males do, to try to feel powerful, and make others, as you say, feel like crap. Note how it's more often to happen, when insecure males are in a group, both for them to feel support from the other males, plus to act macho in front of the other males.
Anyone who supports this kind of harassment and hostility are assholes.
evillimp000 1 year ago
It could be jealousy, they see someone who looks more successful than they are so they make some derogatory remark about the way you look. Now they can delude themselves into thinking that they are better than you.
Or it's just standard misogyny, which unfortunately has no known cure.
pmm217 1 year ago
There's a difference between a well delivered compliment, and moronic harrassment. As you say, it's about the word choice and the delivery - that is, the intent.
Personally, I've only ever complimented someone once, a female shop assistant who had an unusual (and pretty) name on her tag; I asked her how she pronounced it and then said I thought it was very pretty. And I left it at that. What she thought of my compliment I have no idea.
aussiejed1 1 year ago
Were it me (were I a girl) my response would be to confront them and say as follows: Excuse me, but why do you feel it is appropriate to say what you said in the manner in which you said it? Were someone to do this to your mother, your girlfriend, or your sister, would you find it acceptable? Or is it because I am an anonymous face in a crowd that you feel you have the option to degrade me? Regardless, you have my attention. So what? What is it that you had to lewdly summon my attention for?
damneddirtyapez 1 year ago
Ok, first off yes you are that hot, but that's beside the point. You summed it up at the end - let's treat each other with respect. Guys (or girls) can give respectful, non-demeaning compliments that makes all involved feel better. It's like a simple smile, or a "hi" or whatever. But to make someone feel uncomfortable? That's just a stupid power play, totally ignoring the other person as a person and treating them as an object. That's the difference for me. I dunno if that makes any sense...
bradsw57 1 year ago
I live in Brussels and what you said happens here as frequently. If you walk down the street feeling happy and confident it appears that those two adjectives on their own attract disgusting comments from men.
If you think about a stranger "wow she's hot" you should keep it to yourself. A smile could be nice but putting to words your own insight about someone's physical appearance is just as bad as saying "your face is ugly". It's indifferent whatever you say because just saying somethin is rude.
florcita72 1 year ago
@florcita72
It sounds as though some men see a woman who is happy and confident and having a good day and the men just feel so much unconscious resentment that they have to lower her self-esteem.
I think that's a tragedy.
Lowering a complete stranger's self-esteem is the exact opposite of a "compliment". Why don't men get this? Why don't they listen? Nobody wants to feel like dirt. Especially on a -good- day.
Men of the world: listen. Open your ears.
ReliableInsider 1 year ago
@ReliableInsider I agree with you! Women do this to other women too, it's just not as threatening. It's still a tragedy either way.
shethewriter 1 year ago
I understand your humility with your looks, as I feel the same when complimented. I also agree that those directing comments your way about how good you look should employ manners, because it's simply uncouth just to yell at a person spewing vulgar bodily names in the intent of noting attractiveness. People need to consider the feelings of the recipient of such comments. Moral of the story: Think before you open your mouth. Now, how do we teach it to them?
EMcCutchan 1 year ago
I'm happy you made a new video but the subject sucks. ;)
Disrespect for people/environment/animals is my pet peeve. You're "that hot" but that doesn't justifies treating you like a thing.
firnantok 1 year ago
Thank you, people who have commented so far, for your insights and civility. (Except the person who called me a dumb cunt, but, this being YouTube, we all knew that was going to happen...)
Future commenters, I'd love to hear your thoughts -- dissenting or otherwise -- but please continue in the constructive spirit of your predecessors.
ellamorton 1 year ago 9
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Ella, you are looking at it wrong. You should feel complimented that you areso hot that makes guys go crazy for you on the streets. Yes, don't be a bitch.
xtericx 1 year ago
@xtericx Thanks for bringing your voice to the debate. From my perspective: The fact that a random combination of genes got mashed together and resulted in my physicality does not allow me to exalt those who harass me about things I can't control.
ellamorton 1 year ago 5
@xtericx Awwww, I'll bet you still swing from trees and eat bananas. :)
CaptKundalini 1 year ago 2
@CaptKundalini and i eat, shit, sleep, and have sex like any other mammal
xtericx 1 year ago
Just wear a shirt that says something really, really awkward. It doesn't have to be true, but like, wear a shirt that says "I'm a bull dyke" or "I have genital warts".
No-one will hit on someone wearing a shirt like that.
Either that or walk around with your biggest, buffest friend and then people will be too afraid to say anything...
rileypmht 1 year ago
@rileypmht or just hide your body/face with a veil. why should you have to act differently because other people cannot act respectfully?
florcita72 1 year ago 3
@florcita72 It's only if you REALLY have to. Like, people don't flirt with me, they yell out faggot and the likes, so I have to change what I do otherwise my friends won't walk around the city with me, they don't want to be called names like that.
I use the second method, but I think the first one might work...
rileypmht 1 year ago
@rileypmht Let me guess, you tried this and it worked for you?
otheus 1 year ago
@otheus The second one worked for me, yeah.
Plus, then you also have some mancandy to look at when you are bored.
rileypmht 1 year ago
Comment removed
coobru 1 year ago
I don't think they're trying to "seduce" any females with that, it's just that they feel it's normal, that noone would get offended by it.
It's true there're some that take it too far and make more than just a bad impression, thinking they're entitled to it. Overall It has a lot more to do with their social environment, where finding girls that actually shout back is common.
I'm not justifying them, but it is how they usually think. It's like being bully at a more open and public scale.
hijoeturre 1 year ago
I've know a few guys who are like this. I think that they almost always make inappropriate comments to women when they are in male groups as some warped and immature display of bravado.
thefranstastics 1 year ago
Those turkeys aren't worth a rats ass, especially Neanderthals like ArgentinoArio88 who HATES women because he fears them and he knows that if he spoke to a woman like that in public she would grind him under her heel.
CaptKundalini 1 year ago 3
People are different. I don't think there is a single answer that reaches across the spectrum. For some, it's a test of courage amongst friends or a conditioning from their upbringing. Neither of those even give you any real thought, it's all about them. Some probably use it to find women that are use to being degraded, while others merely don't know any better. No easy answer on how to deal with it, but I think you made an excellent point about the delivery.
ctso74 1 year ago
What you were wearing is pointless.
As a male, I don't understand why men do it either. I am sure that it has to do with dominant behavior however.
How often does it happen when men are alone? Is it purely a byproduct of group behavior?
You are allowed to react however you chose when someone engages you in social contact. Especially if it is unwanted social contact.
Humans fail at respect more often than they succeed.
tetsubo57 1 year ago
I absolutely love this type of Vlog. Great job, interesting. And by the way, it's ok to offended by a total lack of class....... As a man, please accept my apology for the thug like way some men behave. Lastly, yes, you ARE charming and beautiful.
ellorybockting 1 year ago
Guys yelling out lewd comments shows a total lack of respect for women. There is a big difference between complimenting a woman and disrespecting her. If it were a group of women acting the same way towards me, I'd probably react the same way. I'm a person not an object.
DigiWax 1 year ago
Was it six times on the sidewalk, or three times on the sidewalk & three in a subway station, or what?
EricJaffa 1 year ago
Ella you're not a bitch, but as to how to get through to these guys? It's a tough question.. Personally, I try and be the type of guy I want others to be.
Can you name some male role models? How many? Short list isn't it..
For the decent guys we really need to step up. Reading this I know there's others like me out there. If you're in a group and this happens, tell the guy doing it he's better than that. Give him ideas, @markiduval, talking to girls is just crazy enough to work!
AussieEskimo 1 year ago
@AussieEskimo Yeah, I'm not sure why a guy would think it's a complement to shout out, "you're hot" to a girl he doesn't know. What's she supposed to say in response? "Thanks! I did it myself!" or... "Thanks! I didn't have any self-worth until you validated my physical appearance that I was born with and was thus beyond my control!"
markiduval 1 year ago
@markiduval Some women DO work really hard to look the way they do.
JosephCheetah 1 year ago
So do some men. And to an extent, yes, you can improve how you look through a healthy lifestyle, but for the most part it's genetics. *shrugs*
markiduval 1 year ago
You should try giving them the dagger look. Just make sure it's scary and not attractive. Haha!
cloudyday021 1 year ago
Yes Ella; humans are animals, and we live among the full spectrum of people with a wide range of backgrounds.
Perhaps labor intensive work brings out something closer to the animal spirit in people; or too, a certain resentment of thoes not in their position.
Probewitch 1 year ago
*Insert generic comment about how you should appreciate it*
lol no, but on a real note, look at it this way: How would it feel like to *never* get any of this attention (albeit awkward and in the wrong form), especially if you attribute it to something silly like looks or weight? Just a positive spin :P
NwZ2 1 year ago
@NwZ2 I appreciate you trying to find the positive side, but I don't associate that kind of "attention" with any sort of validation or encouragement of me as a person. Quite the opposite. Street harassment negates the sentience of the woman involved. And "silly" things like looks and weight carry a lot of social and political meaning in this weird world.
If you're interested in finding out more about the perspective I'm talking about, I recommend you read up on the "Male Gaze".
ellamorton 1 year ago 2
@ellamorton --- I hear what you are saying about the 'Male Gaze' -- and as a counter-point: Hope Sandoval (ex-singer of Mazzy Star) has a really nice tune called ' A Feeling of Gaze'. She oozes a wonderful feminine energy that echoes throughout her life's work - becuase it respects introspection on intimacy to the highest degree.
"Got your hair done up
Like a woman again
Got a feeling of gaze ...
...Gonna play my favorite song
Gonna play it all night long..
....Celebrate"
jengelele 1 year ago
@ellamorton Yea, I'm familiar with the concepts and ideas (though not necessarily the reading material) and so I understand what you're talking about, but my concern is this: What other spaces are there available for a non-oppressive discourse/sociological interaction between man and woman? I mean, i've heard views so radical as saying "the physical act of sex in and of itself is an act of rape"'; its a problem that's difficult to pinpoint but is almost inevitable and hard to avoid
NwZ2 1 year ago
@ellamorton I'm not trying to make any kind of essentialist argument here, but we can't just ontologically wish away gender categories intrinsic to the way we interact as a social species, nor the biological/physical existence of the difference between man and woman, so what kind of meaningful interaction can take place outside of this "totalizing" gaze. Sure this particular example (or even type of interaction) is a bad one, but I think the question still remains
NwZ2 1 year ago
@ellamorton I mean, within the process of socialization, we pick up these behaviors we call "gender", but its the fact *that* we pick them up that society is the way it is today. What would a society look like without there being such a thing as "gender"? Does the concept "confidence" even make sense outside of context of social interaction, and if not, what would be the effects of fundamentally changing the way men and woman interact with each other (both good and bad)?
NwZ2 1 year ago
I'm sorry, I know I'm going all over the place on this one, but I want to appropriately convey this point. I'm going to have to go to Slavoj Zizek (and his book called: Violence), to a part where he talks about racism (since this is a question concerning oppression, and thus being a commonality here): he says that it did not matter that certain intellectuals (writing on issue of race) recognized the factual equality of the races: in effect, they *were* unequal at the SYMBOLIC level
NwZ2 1 year ago