My problem with all religion is that they can't just keep it to themselves they have to try and ram it down my throat. I don't need a god, leave me alone!
You athiests and your science are so arrogant. You don't believe in the circle of God, yet you believe in your math that a circle is pi r squared. Silly fools. Pi are not squared, pi r round. Cake r squared. See--> 3.14 :PI .E
While I cannot prove Hitchens' state of mind it seems obvious from his arguments that he is either ignorant of historical fact(he isn't) or counts on everyone else being so, to win arguments. Just for exp. the Church and antisemitism comments are false.They're a regurgitation of propaganda from that time.The Church is made of people; sinners and scoundrels and worse among them.The Church doesn't exist in a vacuum it lives and moves through history and is subject to human conditions of its time.
@thursday2217 And to quote Stephen Fry from later in the dabate when he responds to the comment that the church couldn't have known at the time "Then what good are you?". If Religions are no more moral than everyone else then what is the point of them? (Especially since they can never provide evidence for their stance).
@rhubis A "religion" is moral and true based on its teaching and doctrine. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, I believe. I've studied it I've been a part of it, and that is what I have come to believe. You don't have to agree. People however are sinners. I am a sinner and that my friend is what "it's for". To guide, to teach, to proclaim the Good News of redemption, to offer grace thru its sacraments, to help me be a better person.
@rhubis The Church and its transformative message has left a profound impact on the world for good. As an institution it has had problems. It still does. Each time it errs however it is because it fails to follow its own teaching. It is made up of people. People are flawed. That is just reality. It is the reality of the human condition.
@thursday2217 Ah so the message of your religion is that everybody is a sinner and will always be sinners unless they believe and follow your religions teachings? What is a sin according to you?
@rhubis No, the message of my Church is that we are loved. What does it matter to you what I think sin is. Sin isn't sin, "according to me". The attempt is to find out what God wants from me, what pleases Him what displeases Him. I want to please Him because I love Him. Why should that bother you. You don't believe so you don't have to worry about what my church calls sin. Human beings are a mixture of good and bad impulses. My Church calls me to choose what is good.
@thursday2217 Do you need the church to decide what is good and bad? Gay marriage for instance, the church says that it is a sin, without religion then there is very little problem with the subject. Does the church considering gay marriage a sin matter to me? Not really but it sure as hell matters to gay people since its the religious that are stopping them from doing it.
@rhubis No, but the Church helps me to see things more clearly. It supports me and encourages me to choose what is right and to resist sinful behavior.The Church cannot marry a gay couple because marriage is a sacrament reserved for one man and one woman, not because they think its sinful. Personally I do not object to gay marriage on religious grounds. I object to it on other grounds as do many people.
@thursday2217 The church is almost certainly stopping people from being married (or even civil partnerships that carry the same tax laws) because of their 'holy book', the religion is stopping a law being passed because of what is in their book. Why do you object to something that doesn't effect you in any way?
@rhubis The Church is not stopping people from being married. Outside the Church marriage is a legal arrangement between a man and a woman sanctioned and promoted by the government as a social good. It also has a long history in civil law. The Church does not have the power to "stop a law being passed" Case in point,the Church's "book" is against the killing of innocents, but abortion is a right protected by law in this country.The sanctioning of gay marriage AFFECTS all of society.
@thursday2217 But because a bunch of people believe in one book that says something is wrong they vote against it because of their religion and not because of their own morality on the subject, too many people say something like gay marriage is wrong "because the bible says so". Give one way gay marriage negativly impacts on society.
@rhubis Your correct that sometimes people do not know why they believe something or are simply inarticulate. We have experienced decades of moving away from traditional values and the result has devastated the culture. Marriage is between a woman and a man because that is the foundation of a family. To say otherwise is to devalue and render meaningless this distinctive and socially beneficial union.
@thursday2217 So you don't like things like gay marriage because... its not traditional and might be bad. Can you provide one tangible reason? Divorce doesn't cause 'great harm' divorce is the solution to a marriage that isn't working, would you prefer that two people that don't like each other stay married? You might also remember that the bible considers looking at a woman with lust as adultery.
@rhubis It has nothing to do with me liking or not liking something. Our culture is in decline is that tangible enough. The undeniable truth is that if the teaching of the Church were actually followed there would be no reason for divorce, no stds, and no unwanted children.
The undeniable truth is that if everyone thought like me, there would be no theft, rape, murder, war, or suffering of any kind. Therefore you should all think like me. Or you'll go to hell.
@c6gunner The topic here, is whether the Church is a force for good. The accusation is that it is not. Specifically I was responding to an accusation that the Church is responsible for people getting AIDS in Africa. It IS NOT logical to blame the Church's teaching on condoms for AIDS, when if anyone paid attention to their teaching on chastity AIDS would be rare. I'm not accusing you of being responsible for rape, murder ect.
That's idiotic beyond words. Akin to saying "flu shots are a sin - if you don't want to get the flu, just stop breathing". Anyone who sees that as a reasonable solution is a complete moron. And yes, the church is evil, and should be held responsible for the tens of thousands of deaths caused by their anti-condom bullshit.
@rhubis People living together and having children outside of marriage also have a negative impact on society. Divorce, adultery, promiscuity all these things are considered sin by the Church. That seems wise and true because all these things cause great harm to society in general and individuals in particular. Contrary to comments made here the Church does not send people to hell for any of these sins. It offers another way, it offers wisdom and it offers reconciliation.
@thursday2217 Also your ideas on the churce 'offering another way' are silly, what the church does is say "do what we say or you go to hell", thats a threat. I agree that the church doesn't send people to hell, hell doesn't exist. The church threatens people with hell and its wisdom is outdated.
Hitchens was both a showman and a great intellect. Neither of which make him correct in his assertions. Unfortunately it did and does make him persuasive to many people. Much of Hitchens' arguments are deliberately misleading. Mocking something usually requires you to reduce it to something absurd and mockable. It is not really intellectually honest. For people who really do not want to know truth it works to win arguments. Again doesn't make him right.
Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
You have to wonder if those Christopher debated didn't find the need to check for visible woulds after the debate ended. Because he beat the shit our of every single on of them...
Floorward v. skyward, rash v. asphyxiation, Alzheimer's v. autism as there are non-therapeutic plans in the works that transcend the fluoridation of the public's tap water, assaults via military tanker jets (aerial obscuration w/the creation of poisonous cloud banks comprised of heavy metal oxides, petroleum waste products & bacilli), D.U. in the bombs & bullets of peace-keepers as the genocidal agent by which to render the Arab World an eternal no-man's land, spider-goats & head transplants.
how does the church need to accept responsiblity for the acts of individuals, of which they apologize for. Whenever another organization has an employee that does something wrong, they apologize for it, but they don't take responsibility for it as they didn't cause it.
Elitism = death to self-sovereignty, redress of grievances against the govt., free speech, gun & water rights. Atheism {sans quotes} is the religion of the animal world as animals don't contemplate the Heavens nor wage planetary war.
( ̲̅:̲̅:̲̅:̲̅[̲̅ ̲̅]̲̅:̲̅:̲̅:̲̅ ) Religion is Man's attempt to explain the metaphysical world. "Atheism" is the elitists' religion designed to subjugate Man by denying his incomparable value. Elitism spawns Darwinism, infanticide, "terra"-forming, collectivism, eugenics, fluoridated water, animal "rights," the E.R.A., the Z.P.G. movt., fiat money, land confiscation.
The interests behind the Bush Administration, such as the C.F.R., the Bilderberger Group, and the Trilateral Commission - founded by Brzezinski for David Rockefeller - have prepared for and are now moving to implement open world dictatorship within the next five years. They are not fighting against terrorists. They are fighting against citizens." Dr. Johannes B. Koeppl, Ph.D., fmr. German defense ministry official & adviser to former N.A.T.O. Secretary-General Manfred Werner, November 6, 2001
antisemitism was not an official doctrine of the church. what hitchens is specifically referring to is the belief that the jews should be collectively responsible for murdering jesus, which was espoused by a number of christians and clergy members throughout history. the vatican had no official comment on this until the second vatican council in 1964, when they repudiated it. they certainly deserve blame for allowing it to spread, but its completely wrong to call it official doctrine.
MR. HITCHENS IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT . IT TAKES HUNDREDS OF YEARS FOR A FINAL REPLY. THE ATROCITIES THOUGH AREN'T DONE BY A CHURCH BUT BY PEOPLE IN IT, THEY SHOULD BE HANDLED BY LAW. THESE PEOPLE WEREN'T PICKED BY THE DEVINE , BUT WERE EMPLOYEES OF THE CHURCH .
The great atheist thinkers would not associate with someone like Hitchens. Albert Ellis, Victor Frankl, Bertrand Russell, Ernest Becker, Jean Paul Sarte and Albert Camus to name a few would not align themselves with this con-man whose only interest was lining his pockets. Not to mention this idiot aligned himself with George Bush and the "war on terror." Why do atheists get taken in by a piece of shit like this.
We Catholics don't destroy or make condemnations of other denomnations, religion like you Hitchens. We pray for them and we will continue to pray for people like you.
If only Hitch was as critical of his self-abuse(Smoking, Alcohol, indulgence in obviously the wrong food..etc) as he was of the Catholic churches abuses, he may well have still been with us.... sadly we all make mistakes that the school of hard knocks seems to be unforgiving about...
Nowhere did I say or imply Mao or Lenin were Catholics. I plainly did NOT say that. If you're going to be quite this deceitful, I'm done with you. You completely ignore what I actually said in favor of replying to a point I didn't make, that in fact you lie about my having said.
Yes, they were atheists, it's true. Nowhere does Hitchens ever say, "Atheists are incapable of atrocity." But look to the governments you describe, ESPECIALLY that of Mao, and tell me with a straight face they didn't use classically religious methods of reverence for the unquestioned leader, belief in State infallibility or nearly so, and didn't rely on a bedrock of credulous people trained by religion over centuries to obey authority.
@RakeeshJ4 So now you are telling me Mao was a Catholic are you, will you now tell me also that Lenin and Stalin were Catholics. " Atheism is a natural and inseperable part of Marxism" by the well known "Catholic "Lenin
I'm also very glad he highlights his good friend Stephen Fry. The Catholic Church today condemns this man for what his sexual orientation. It's a stark reminder that although the Crusades, Inquisition, etc., are long ago, the Catholic Church would still be doing these things if they were the ones in power and allowed to do so. They cannot argue oh that was long ago, we don't do that anymore, when you see how they treat gays, preach no condoms in HIV+ Africa, promote pedophilia, etc.
@ballinora53 Hitler was a Catholic, what's your point? And what does it have to do with the Catholic Church? Do you have an actual point here? Yes you do not need to be religious to murder lots of people.
@Ericwvb2 Hitler gave up Catholism before the first world war, also he murdered 3,000,000 Polish Catholics as well as 3,000 Catholic Clergy, some Catholic No what is your point, my point is very clear, you should look at the behaviour of your fellow Atheists before you critiscise Catholics, and by the way where is your evidence that the Catholic Church condems Mr Fry
@ballinora53 Mr. Fry is gay. He is condemned by the Catholic church as are all homosexuals, unless there was a recent change in policy I was not informed about. German Wehmacht soldiers in WW2 wore "Gott mit uns" (God is with us) belt buckles. Mein Kampf was published in 1925, after WW1, and Hitler makes numerous statements about being a Christian. Hitler was not an atheist! Germany was a Christian country! I mean really, get real.
@Ericwvb2 That why Hitler murdered 3,000,000 Catholics and 3,000 Catholic Clergy, If he was such a Catholic why did he marry Eva Braun in a civil Ceromony. Well your fellow Atheist Stalin persecuted Gay people, and I never heard of any priest turning away a Gay person from a Catholic Church, of course Fry blamed Catholics for building the concentration camp camp in Auschwitz in 2009, maybe you would to comment on that, Russia was also Christian until Stalin and Lenin murdered Christians
@ballinora53 Why don't you explain why Pope John Paul apologized in 1998 about the behavior of the Catholic church during WW2? The Catholic Church is very anti-gay, they are against equal rights for gays and if you believe otherwise you are a fool. Hitler killed lots of people, including Catholics, not because he a Catholic, but because he was Hitler.
@Ericwvb2 The behaviour of the Catholic Church during World War 2 , enlighten me. Now tell me about your hero Fry blaming Polish Catholics for building Auschwitz. If the Catholic Church is so anti Gay why was Oscar Wilde received into the Catholic Church when he was near death and given a Catholic funeral, or why was Siegfried Sassoon received into the Catholic Church. Last year I was at the funeral of a gay friend of mine a devout Catholic and he got a beautifull Catholic funeral.
@ballinora53 Why don't you tell me as you're the expert on the Catholic Church here. I haven't even gotten into the really nasty stuff, such as them protecting child molesters and actively promoting child rape and molestation. The Catholic Church teamed up with the Mormon Church to spend millions passing prop 8 which outlawed gay marriage in California. From their website: "The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law." You are clueless.
@Ericwvb2 " several of of my friends gay and straight male and female had sex with adults between the ages of 9 and 13 , none of them say they were abused all say it was their concious choiche and gave them great joy.. Not all sex involving children is unwanted abusive and harmfull." Now who said that, the Pope Bishops or Priests, no no no, why it was Peter Tatchell the Gay rights campaigner, who shared a platform with the great Dawkins in London 2010
@Ericwvb2 Now why did you fail to adress my question to you about your hero Fry blaming Catholic Poles for constructing the death of Auschwitz, and was not your hero Hitchens a Marxist a thing he had in common with Lenin Stalin Mao, Yes LKenin had a moustache, but what Lenin did that most people did not do was to murder peoplebecause they were Christians, and as I said he closed their Churches and opened Museums of Atheism,
@TomFynn Strange you forget to mention the agreement between the communist/Atheist regime of the Soviet Union and the Nazis in Munich,The plan was to divide up parts of Europe betwenn those two Juntas, but Hitler got greedy and invaded the the Soviet in 1941. The Receichkordonet was signed in 1933. six years before World War 2
@ballinora53 And you also miss an important point. Mao, Stalin, Hitler were power crazed megalomaniacs. They did not do their actions out of atheist convictions. Whereas when bin Laden orders his thugs to crash planes into office buildings, when popes ordered the Crusades, when Muslims bomb each other constantly, they are doing it BECAUSE of their religious conviction. There is no logical way to tie actions like genocide out of non-belief in a deity.
@Ericwvb2 Well the famous Hitchens supported tjhe Russian Revolution which was the cause of the murderous regime in the Soviet Union, and I am not a Muslim so please do not be tieing me up with them, and why are you so troubled about the Crusades?
@Ericwvb2 I am missing no point , you came on this thread supporting Hitchins who had a hatred of Catholics, you proceed to blame Catholics for many of the evils in the world, I am turning the table around for yout o look at the misery and death piled on Catholics and other Christiansby Atheists. Lenin murdered Clergy, closed their churches and in their place opened Museums Of Atheism, as for bringing Muslims into the argument, I am not a Muslim take up your complaint with them
@ballinora53 You are spouting total nonsense. Lenin murdered atheists as well. He was not a leader of an "atheist church" as there is no such thing. Lenin also had a mustache (so did Hitler). Does that mean all men with mustaches should be condemned? Like I said, and like Dawkins and Hitchens have said, there is no line from atheism, no dogma, no scripture (since they do not exist) to these actions.
@Ericwvb2 I am vey stable , not like your buddies Tatchill and Fry, and what did I hear about the great Fry doing time for credit card fraud. You cannot answer my questions that is why you have to try and insult me, your remarks say more about you than about me
@ballinora53 I don't know who Tachill is. Fry is an actor who i don't think should be demonized because of his sexual orientation. I don't recall calling Fry a hero. I don't ever recall other Fry or Hitchens saying "Because we are so wonderful and have been divinely inspired everything we say should be followed and everything we do is holy." They are both human beings and have human flaws.
@LatumWay He doesn't need to. That one video alone showed what he was about. If you can't see why someone constantly standing up and telling the truth about religions and institutions that have caused the death and suffering of many isn't heartening and inspirational then I don't know what is.
He's blatantly cherry picking in order to sensationalise & scaremonger, which in turn boosts book sales.....it's the tactic of the gutter tabloid press.
"They're all monsters i tell you, every last one of 'em."
@oBARFLYo . Explain the millions murdered by the Atheists /Communists. who were Marxists, and was not Hitchins a Marxist, and did he not think the Russian Revolution was a good thing?
@LatumWay No he was not fantastic. I don't call ad-hominem fantastic. I would have liked to see a good atheist refute a religious person with logic and rationale. Hitchens was an asshole only lining his pockets. He was no Bertand Russell or Jean Paul Sartre or Nietzsche. What is even worst is that t that your typical atheist pays to see this shit. I could have done a better job refuting this religionist. What an awful "debate." Atheists settle for too little from con-men lining their pockets.
I do believe in God.I am Christian. God is a Spirit which we cant see. There have been People in history (Moses Jesus Abraham) Which have had spiritual encounters. There are some People that have the idea that atheists are assholes n will burn in hell. Guys..God in my opinion accepts people if you have done good. If you r Catholic but killed n stealed in life will you go to heaven? of course not. If you are a good person on earth God will reward you. Atheists r not evil. just lack faith n belief
@varone6t9 Well it is refreshing to see a christian who does not believe atheists worship Satan. Not much else is in favour of your points. You argue that god cannot be seen, but that he appeared to select individuals, lets consider this premise. God stays silent for 98 thousand years of human history then decides to intervene, not where people have built great empires, not where people can read and write, but to a tribe of primitive nomadic goat herders. That makes a lot of sense (not)
Sadly it was Christopher Hitchen's death which allerted me to his existence. Since then I have been deeply moved by his logic and oratory skills. Truly a latter day Cicero or John Locke.
I used a concept in order to convey an idea to you. That idea was the result of my indulging your desire to open up a sideshow to the main debate, which i felt i had concluded anyway. You did not acknowledge the satisfactory end of the main debate, and now you are not acknowledging the satisfactory end of this little sideshow.
Seems like it was not about the subject matter but the ego involved. Bye!
Alternative: Hitchen say: Look - Catholics - They bad.
I say: What is "bad"? If bad is universal system of human values, then why hold back from judging Communism by it (relevance: it's atheism in government, he is atheism in person), why just attack Catholicism? Hitchens now = Hypocrite.
Hitchens begins speech with "who am i to ask?" Implying human values are relative - so by his own tacit admission - he is just being Absurd, not Hypocrite. Absurd in line with his always being sozzled anyway.
@hatloverxxx Communism is more like a religion though. They're both personality cults, demand submission, it has doctrines, claim to be peaceful while theyre not, and a lot more similarities. Kim Il Sung turned sand into rice, Jesus turned water into wine and their followers believe it without hesitation. The only reason why Communist countries dont allow religion is because they want people to worship the leader of the country and follow his doctrine, instead of some imaginary God.
@OhReallyNoWai That is so cool. Also, i saw the sea on a television program and it had waves on it. The waves were moving up and down. It was like in a bathtub, but on a larger scale. Also, the water looked much darker than in a bathtub. I imagine the water was colder than in a bathtub as well - but that depends on:
1. Whose bathtub
2. What temperature the water in the bathtub usually is (personal taste)
To cut a long boring message short, communism is atheism. Duh.
@hatloverxxx Communism is not the same as atheism, theyre 2 different things. Communism is governed the same way as a monotheistic religion. Theyre both personality cults with a doctrine, not submitting will be severely punished. Atheism merely describes the absence of the belief in a deity, so that's the only one thing atheism and communism have in common... Although, most communist leaders have performed miracles and present themselves as deity-like beings, just like Jesus did.
@OhReallyNoWai Communists per se are atheists. They might perform miracles, which may / may not be genuine. But the religious beliefs are focused on atheism, i.e. no supernatural / supersensible etc. deity. Maybe they see themselves as god-head-like. But they'll never proclaim themselves to be divine - cos that wouldn't be atheism. For e.g.: China pre-communism probably had god-kings, as did Japan once. There's a clear break between that & Communism. Conclusion: Communism is a form of atheism.
@hatloverxxx First rule of the 10 commandments: You shall have no other gods before me.
That is exactly the same reason why communist leaders forbid religion, they want you to worship them and follow their doctrine. Why have your people worship some God, if they can worship you? It are tools for controling people. In most communist countries, people with a mind of their own were slaughtered. The same happened in the history of most mainsteam monotheistic religions.
@OhReallyNoWai It's interesting re: Kim Jong Il's miracle. I've read in an 18th cent (1700s) book about atheistic miracle workers in India, during a time of famine, one atheist guy was able to just blow on bits of pottery and alchemically transmute it into gold. I wouldn't entirely rule it out - as the universe really is weird.
Anyway if there's something i don't understand, i'd like you to clarify - communists are all atheists, miracles or not, yes?
@hatloverxxx Officially communists claim to be atheists, yes. They say that regardless of their own personal beliefs, just to fit in the system. I would say the same if I were a Christian but had the chance of being put in a deathcamp if they found out. You were claiming: "communism is atheism", but atheism merely describes a disbelief and not a political ideology. I was just pointing out the communism is more similar to organized religion.
@OhReallyNoWai You put deist / theist context to communism that is ephemeral at best ("it isn't, therefore it is!").
Then you say "maybe secretly they were deist / theist / xtian, so communist isn't atheism!" - pure imagination.
Also, whatever some factory worker secretly thinks, the top man & his system is godless, atheistic, not supernatural, purely materialistic. Hence i say communism is atheism. It doesn't get simpler, just leave it there, bye.
@hatloverxxx I know what you are trying to say, but then it should be "communism is atheistic". It seems like you didn't understand most of the things I was saying. I was pointing out that monotheistic religions have the same way of controling people as communist governments (such as using fear, doctrines, indoctrination, and false promises). Apart from the creation and afterlife nonsense, there isn't much difference. I'm glad you wanna leave it at that, I'm also done with it. Peace
@OhReallyNoWai Ok but at my common level of English, you can say someone has been kind, or you can say someone has shown kindness, both seem valid (re: comm. is atheism vs. comm. is atheistic).
And yes there is a lot of ahem "shepherding" in Catholicism, but l was trying to be aloof to both Catholicism and Communism. Anyway thanks for replying, your replies really made me think about things.
I already mentioned the European countries. Also: He is saying: Look - Catholics - They bad.
You must agree he is saying that.
I say: What is "bad"? Bad must be relative. Only thing on screen to compare Catholic with is Hitchens. Hitchens = Atheist. Atheism in person = atheism. Atheism ruling land per se i.e. as pure Atheist rule = Communism. So Hitchens tacitly compares Catholic with Communist. Communist equal or worse than Catholic. So argument engine dont even start = non-starter = Absurd.
@hatloverxxx Your logic fails, Just Because Most Of A Was B, doesn't mean all of B Equals A. Example, Right Wing in the US are Mainly christian, this doesn't follow that all Christians are Right Wing, hell there are Christian Leftists and Christian Socialists, hell there are even Christian Communists maybe you should do your research a bit better :)
@vampyres32 I was using semantics. I'm aware there were communists of religious backgrounds in Soviet Union - they even got all Xtian during siege of Leningrad.
There are demonic Xtians & angelic Atheists. That doesn't mean evil is a class of Xtian, or religious is a class of Atheist. Look at things in themselves. Communism / Marxism is atheistic.
There'll always be lost sheep on either side. Don't bounce your argument off absurd scenarios ("all Xtians are right wing") to appear valid.
Read your comment again. What communist or fascist regimes have done is irrelevant to what the catholic church has done. Your comment is merely an attempt to divert attention from the issue at hand.
@lewisner Absurdity renders an argument void. Hitchins was a prominent atheist. He was saying Catholics are bad. Bad in relation to what? (Atheists must admit morals are relative) He doesn't say in relation to what. So one must assume he means in relation to atheism, which is what he was always defending. So i then went on to show that atheism has been responsible for as much / worse. So as far as the relative badness of Catholicism goes - his argument was shown to be absurd. Rebuttal please.
@hatloverxxx said "He was saying Catholics are bad. Bad in relation to what? (Atheists must admit morals are relative) "
Bad in relation to normal human values. He doesn't have to explain relative values since he assumes his audience have a reasonale level of intelligence. Plus he is speaking to an audience of theists and non theists and the topic is not the evils of communism or fascism.
@lewisner The thrust of your argument is "normal human values". That is a nebulous concept. Name one thing that is against "normal human values" (as you declare them) and show that it's not common practice in some cases, by a normal human society.
Anyway, if he is not logically absurd then he is a hypocrite at least. You choose.
@lewisner The actions of communist regimes is relevant because they either make Hitchens' argument absurd, or if this made-up notion of Normal Values is ratified, they make the atheist Hitchens a hypocrite. So it's crucial to two major results.
Re: Paedophilia. If u mean before puberty (true meaning) - it's legal in one major religion's book of law (Jewish Talmud, 3 years + 1 day)
As Age of consent - the age in many European countries would have meant jail in America & vice versa.
@hatloverxxx Hitchens was an atheist but not a communist. I'm an atheist but I regard all political parties as charlatans. If you have a point to make you are not making it well.
You give me an example of paedophilia endorsed by religion? Round of applause!
@lewisner Bit late for that, looks like you're changing tack, but anyway, if an atheist were to leave his wine cellar, and actually rule a nation under a specifically atheist code (not secular, but atheist) - it would be dictatorship (one man wielding complete power, just as with religion) with emphasis on socialism and maybe oligarchy to oil the gears. I call that Communism. But then again, i don't distinguish between Marxism and Communism etc, - all atheism turned state religion.
@lewisner I think Italy and France used to have the age of consent at 12-14 until the 90s (for females at least). I think some European countries still have it as low as 14 or 15, which is definitely illegal in America (16-18). And if an American state has it at 16, well that's not good for a European country that has it at 17 or 18. And yes, i heard it used to be 10 in America about a century ago. Also, some want it to be 21. Mixed human values. P.S. This pedo debate is ultra boring.
@lewisner And oh yeah, human values like "don't kill civilians, especially women & children, hey screw it, don't kill anyone for anything" - sounds good & fair, but some people strongly disagree. Take for example Hitchens, war activist (i'm so not going to endorse or reject war in this debate). But my point is made - there is no absolute human value system in atheism. So, it's relative, & it must mean relative to atheism a la Communism, aka bloodbath - making his arg. against Catholics absurd.
@hatloverxxx i mean, in this debate - his moral yardstick by which he judges Catholicism must be implicitly against the standards of atheist government - a la Communism. Which has a worse / equal record compared to Catholicism - rendering his argument absurd, a non-starter. And if there is a universal human value system - then he has deliberately only applied it to Catholicism, & not to Communism, rendering his argument hypocritical. I struggled with this but i think i got it.
My problem with all religion is that they can't just keep it to themselves they have to try and ram it down my throat. I don't need a god, leave me alone!
godfree689 4 hours ago
You athiests and your science are so arrogant. You don't believe in the circle of God, yet you believe in your math that a circle is pi r squared. Silly fools. Pi are not squared, pi r round. Cake r squared. See--> 3.14 :PI .E
ustink0815 4 days ago
While I cannot prove Hitchens' state of mind it seems obvious from his arguments that he is either ignorant of historical fact(he isn't) or counts on everyone else being so, to win arguments. Just for exp. the Church and antisemitism comments are false.They're a regurgitation of propaganda from that time.The Church is made of people; sinners and scoundrels and worse among them.The Church doesn't exist in a vacuum it lives and moves through history and is subject to human conditions of its time.
thursday2217 5 days ago
@thursday2217 And to quote Stephen Fry from later in the dabate when he responds to the comment that the church couldn't have known at the time "Then what good are you?". If Religions are no more moral than everyone else then what is the point of them? (Especially since they can never provide evidence for their stance).
rhubis 4 days ago
@rhubis A "religion" is moral and true based on its teaching and doctrine. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth, I believe. I've studied it I've been a part of it, and that is what I have come to believe. You don't have to agree. People however are sinners. I am a sinner and that my friend is what "it's for". To guide, to teach, to proclaim the Good News of redemption, to offer grace thru its sacraments, to help me be a better person.
thursday2217 3 days ago
@rhubis The Church and its transformative message has left a profound impact on the world for good. As an institution it has had problems. It still does. Each time it errs however it is because it fails to follow its own teaching. It is made up of people. People are flawed. That is just reality. It is the reality of the human condition.
thursday2217 3 days ago
@thursday2217 Ah so the message of your religion is that everybody is a sinner and will always be sinners unless they believe and follow your religions teachings? What is a sin according to you?
rhubis 3 days ago
@rhubis No, the message of my Church is that we are loved. What does it matter to you what I think sin is. Sin isn't sin, "according to me". The attempt is to find out what God wants from me, what pleases Him what displeases Him. I want to please Him because I love Him. Why should that bother you. You don't believe so you don't have to worry about what my church calls sin. Human beings are a mixture of good and bad impulses. My Church calls me to choose what is good.
thursday2217 3 days ago
@thursday2217 Do you need the church to decide what is good and bad? Gay marriage for instance, the church says that it is a sin, without religion then there is very little problem with the subject. Does the church considering gay marriage a sin matter to me? Not really but it sure as hell matters to gay people since its the religious that are stopping them from doing it.
rhubis 3 days ago
@rhubis No, but the Church helps me to see things more clearly. It supports me and encourages me to choose what is right and to resist sinful behavior.The Church cannot marry a gay couple because marriage is a sacrament reserved for one man and one woman, not because they think its sinful. Personally I do not object to gay marriage on religious grounds. I object to it on other grounds as do many people.
thursday2217 3 days ago
@thursday2217 The church is almost certainly stopping people from being married (or even civil partnerships that carry the same tax laws) because of their 'holy book', the religion is stopping a law being passed because of what is in their book. Why do you object to something that doesn't effect you in any way?
rhubis 2 days ago
@rhubis The Church is not stopping people from being married. Outside the Church marriage is a legal arrangement between a man and a woman sanctioned and promoted by the government as a social good. It also has a long history in civil law. The Church does not have the power to "stop a law being passed" Case in point,the Church's "book" is against the killing of innocents, but abortion is a right protected by law in this country.The sanctioning of gay marriage AFFECTS all of society.
thursday2217 2 days ago
@thursday2217 But because a bunch of people believe in one book that says something is wrong they vote against it because of their religion and not because of their own morality on the subject, too many people say something like gay marriage is wrong "because the bible says so". Give one way gay marriage negativly impacts on society.
rhubis 2 days ago
@rhubis Your correct that sometimes people do not know why they believe something or are simply inarticulate. We have experienced decades of moving away from traditional values and the result has devastated the culture. Marriage is between a woman and a man because that is the foundation of a family. To say otherwise is to devalue and render meaningless this distinctive and socially beneficial union.
thursday2217 2 days ago
@thursday2217 So you don't like things like gay marriage because... its not traditional and might be bad. Can you provide one tangible reason? Divorce doesn't cause 'great harm' divorce is the solution to a marriage that isn't working, would you prefer that two people that don't like each other stay married? You might also remember that the bible considers looking at a woman with lust as adultery.
rhubis 1 day ago
@rhubis It has nothing to do with me liking or not liking something. Our culture is in decline is that tangible enough. The undeniable truth is that if the teaching of the Church were actually followed there would be no reason for divorce, no stds, and no unwanted children.
thursday2217 1 day ago
@thursday2217 The "undeniable truth" you speak of is complete bollocks.
rhubis 1 day ago
@thursday2217 The "undeniable truth" you speak of is total rubbish. Where do you get this stuff from? Oh right the church.
rhubis 1 day ago
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@thursday2217 The "undeniable truth" you speak of is total rubbish. Where do you get this stuff from? Oh right the church.
rhubis 1 day ago
@thursday2217
The undeniable truth is that if everyone thought like me, there would be no theft, rape, murder, war, or suffering of any kind. Therefore you should all think like me. Or you'll go to hell.
c6gunner 17 hours ago
@c6gunner The topic here, is whether the Church is a force for good. The accusation is that it is not. Specifically I was responding to an accusation that the Church is responsible for people getting AIDS in Africa. It IS NOT logical to blame the Church's teaching on condoms for AIDS, when if anyone paid attention to their teaching on chastity AIDS would be rare. I'm not accusing you of being responsible for rape, murder ect.
thursday2217 12 hours ago
@thursday2217
That's idiotic beyond words. Akin to saying "flu shots are a sin - if you don't want to get the flu, just stop breathing". Anyone who sees that as a reasonable solution is a complete moron. And yes, the church is evil, and should be held responsible for the tens of thousands of deaths caused by their anti-condom bullshit.
c6gunner 23 minutes ago
@rhubis People living together and having children outside of marriage also have a negative impact on society. Divorce, adultery, promiscuity all these things are considered sin by the Church. That seems wise and true because all these things cause great harm to society in general and individuals in particular. Contrary to comments made here the Church does not send people to hell for any of these sins. It offers another way, it offers wisdom and it offers reconciliation.
thursday2217 2 days ago
@thursday2217 Also your ideas on the churce 'offering another way' are silly, what the church does is say "do what we say or you go to hell", thats a threat. I agree that the church doesn't send people to hell, hell doesn't exist. The church threatens people with hell and its wisdom is outdated.
rhubis 1 day ago
@rhubis Again the Church does not threaten with Hell. Where do you people get this stuff.Oh I know Hitchens and Fry.
thursday2217 1 day ago
Hitchens was both a showman and a great intellect. Neither of which make him correct in his assertions. Unfortunately it did and does make him persuasive to many people. Much of Hitchens' arguments are deliberately misleading. Mocking something usually requires you to reduce it to something absurd and mockable. It is not really intellectually honest. For people who really do not want to know truth it works to win arguments. Again doesn't make him right.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217 "Much of Hitchens' arguments are deliberately misleading" Care to provide evidence for that? Or are you just lying for Jesus?
TomFynn 5 days ago
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Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
tigersforchrist 1 week ago
That was just amazing.
jeffiek 1 week ago
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everyone who isnt a christian should fuck off and die athiests are scum
daveywhippet 1 week ago
You have to wonder if those Christopher debated didn't find the need to check for visible woulds after the debate ended. Because he beat the shit our of every single on of them...
Hornadayfan 2 weeks ago
I'm tired of hearing about "anti-semitism" if it exists its well earned
232323C 2 weeks ago
@232323C if it exists? that statement alone suggests you are no one worth listening to.
MrSamySara 1 week ago
@232323C
Congratulations, you broke my irony meter ;P.
lucifersgarden 1 week ago
What a combination-the Catholics got Hitchslapped AND Fried...
organaphus 2 weeks ago 3
How dare Hitchens! The clergy aren't virgins...at least not the ones that have ever been in charge of children.
Snakepliskinist 2 weeks ago 3
I swear this man had planet-sized balls. Good on him.
ladylejean215 2 weeks ago 23
Fry & Hitch. That would have been a great TV show.
ThePhantom135 3 weeks ago
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DGice2 3 weeks ago
Flawless victory.
AirBoyPlummets 3 weeks ago
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Some people want young white females to mix with non-white males.
I made a one-minute video highlighting a very small sample of race-mixing advertisements.
I love white people, and I am opposed to race-mixing. But I do not hate non-whites.
If you click on my name “awhitesoul2012” highlighted in blue below this comment, you can watch my video.
Thanks.
awhitesoul2012 3 weeks ago
Floorward v. skyward, rash v. asphyxiation, Alzheimer's v. autism as there are non-therapeutic plans in the works that transcend the fluoridation of the public's tap water, assaults via military tanker jets (aerial obscuration w/the creation of poisonous cloud banks comprised of heavy metal oxides, petroleum waste products & bacilli), D.U. in the bombs & bullets of peace-keepers as the genocidal agent by which to render the Arab World an eternal no-man's land, spider-goats & head transplants.
ThePregnancySlaves 4 weeks ago
Fry and the Hitch. That's a fucking team right there.
RIP Christopher. You made an impact, you made a difference, and you did inspire.
LordWardenOfThePrivy 1 month ago 41
@LordWardenOfThePrivy And on top of that, Hitchens kicked serious bottom, wherever bottoms needed kicking.
TomFynn 2 weeks ago
@LordWardenOfThePrivy Shame he's burning in hell though :\
mikemgw18 1 week ago
@LordWardenOfThePrivy RIP?? He iz in hell nw! hahahaha! He iz gettin pwned as we speak!! He tinks der iz no God, well has he read DA BIBBLE???? PWNED
VoteHarveyDent 2 days ago
@VoteHarveyDent wow, troll alert. This isnt a mobile phone, you have a keyboard, trying to use all of the letters at your disposal.
LordWardenOfThePrivy 2 days ago
@LordWardenOfThePrivy Troll? Datz wat u pepel say!! Accept God nd live 4 eva!!
VoteHarveyDent 2 days ago
@VoteHarveyDent yes dear, whatever you say dear.
LordWardenOfThePrivy 2 days ago
how does the church need to accept responsiblity for the acts of individuals, of which they apologize for. Whenever another organization has an employee that does something wrong, they apologize for it, but they don't take responsibility for it as they didn't cause it.
DGice2 1 month ago
@DGice2 but the churh try to cover it up.
mandrillx 3 weeks ago
Watched this tonight & clapped my hands. What a wonderful man. Know you won't hear this my friend but CHEERS HITCH
KITCHENOFDISTINCTION 1 month ago
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Elitism = death to self-sovereignty, redress of grievances against the govt., free speech, gun & water rights. Atheism {sans quotes} is the religion of the animal world as animals don't contemplate the Heavens nor wage planetary war.
ThePregnancySlaves 1 month ago
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( ̲̅:̲̅:̲̅:̲̅[̲̅ ̲̅]̲̅:̲̅:̲̅:̲̅ ) Religion is Man's attempt to explain the metaphysical world. "Atheism" is the elitists' religion designed to subjugate Man by denying his incomparable value. Elitism spawns Darwinism, infanticide, "terra"-forming, collectivism, eugenics, fluoridated water, animal "rights," the E.R.A., the Z.P.G. movt., fiat money, land confiscation.
ThePregnancySlaves 1 month ago
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The interests behind the Bush Administration, such as the C.F.R., the Bilderberger Group, and the Trilateral Commission - founded by Brzezinski for David Rockefeller - have prepared for and are now moving to implement open world dictatorship within the next five years. They are not fighting against terrorists. They are fighting against citizens." Dr. Johannes B. Koeppl, Ph.D., fmr. German defense ministry official & adviser to former N.A.T.O. Secretary-General Manfred Werner, November 6, 2001
ThePregnancySlaves 1 month ago
So eloquently said...and so true.
ReadABookAndLearn 1 month ago
this is edgy
coolbigboy56565 1 month ago
antisemitism was not an official doctrine of the church. what hitchens is specifically referring to is the belief that the jews should be collectively responsible for murdering jesus, which was espoused by a number of christians and clergy members throughout history. the vatican had no official comment on this until the second vatican council in 1964, when they repudiated it. they certainly deserve blame for allowing it to spread, but its completely wrong to call it official doctrine.
MickeyMacaroney 1 month ago
HAHAHA! Funny Guy! very good! he made me more Catholic. Go Catholics!!!
catholicric28 1 month ago
@catholicric28 Did god rape mary?
cfc19900 1 month ago
@catholicric28 Yeah, logic and reason seem to have that effect on the brainwashed.
gdsm93 1 month ago
This is one of the many examples as to why Christopher Hitchens is a hero to me.
Mithr0s 1 month ago
MR. HITCHENS IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT . IT TAKES HUNDREDS OF YEARS FOR A FINAL REPLY. THE ATROCITIES THOUGH AREN'T DONE BY A CHURCH BUT BY PEOPLE IN IT, THEY SHOULD BE HANDLED BY LAW. THESE PEOPLE WEREN'T PICKED BY THE DEVINE , BUT WERE EMPLOYEES OF THE CHURCH .
GIANFRANCO FRONZI. JAN. 18/12
9493760 1 month ago
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The great atheist thinkers would not associate with someone like Hitchens. Albert Ellis, Victor Frankl, Bertrand Russell, Ernest Becker, Jean Paul Sarte and Albert Camus to name a few would not align themselves with this con-man whose only interest was lining his pockets. Not to mention this idiot aligned himself with George Bush and the "war on terror." Why do atheists get taken in by a piece of shit like this.
123WalshJack 1 month ago
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123WalshJack 1 month ago
Looks like someone got owned. LOL
karimgroove 1 month ago
Hitch is like a steam roller
Ikorose11 1 month ago
It is impossible to talk about religion with a straight face XD
petar00z 1 month ago
We Catholics don't destroy or make condemnations of other denomnations, religion like you Hitchens. We pray for them and we will continue to pray for people like you.
2479sunny 1 month ago
@2479sunny Why don't you invest your time into something more useful and make your church into something which it claims to uphold?
MinimoviesInc 1 month ago
@2479sunny
Oh, what a load of bullshit.
foojuice101 1 month ago
@2479sunny Start with apologizing first though.
webnovice2012 1 month ago
Many people have been trying to destroy the Catholic Church ever since St Peter started the Church.
2479sunny 1 month ago
@2479sunny Good.
MinimoviesInc 1 month ago
If only Hitch was as critical of his self-abuse(Smoking, Alcohol, indulgence in obviously the wrong food..etc) as he was of the Catholic churches abuses, he may well have still been with us.... sadly we all make mistakes that the school of hard knocks seems to be unforgiving about...
You are missed hitch
veganath 1 month ago 2
@ballinora53
Nowhere did I say or imply Mao or Lenin were Catholics. I plainly did NOT say that. If you're going to be quite this deceitful, I'm done with you. You completely ignore what I actually said in favor of replying to a point I didn't make, that in fact you lie about my having said.
RakeeshJ4 1 month ago
@ballinora53
Yes, they were atheists, it's true. Nowhere does Hitchens ever say, "Atheists are incapable of atrocity." But look to the governments you describe, ESPECIALLY that of Mao, and tell me with a straight face they didn't use classically religious methods of reverence for the unquestioned leader, belief in State infallibility or nearly so, and didn't rely on a bedrock of credulous people trained by religion over centuries to obey authority.
Look at those governments, so commonly mention
RakeeshJ4 1 month ago
@RakeeshJ4 So now you are telling me Mao was a Catholic are you, will you now tell me also that Lenin and Stalin were Catholics. " Atheism is a natural and inseperable part of Marxism" by the well known "Catholic "Lenin
ballinora53 1 month ago
Beautiful speech.
ElMufro 1 month ago
I'm also very glad he highlights his good friend Stephen Fry. The Catholic Church today condemns this man for what his sexual orientation. It's a stark reminder that although the Crusades, Inquisition, etc., are long ago, the Catholic Church would still be doing these things if they were the ones in power and allowed to do so. They cannot argue oh that was long ago, we don't do that anymore, when you see how they treat gays, preach no condoms in HIV+ Africa, promote pedophilia, etc.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 But Lenin, Stalin and Chairman were not Catholics , they were Atheists Millions and they were Atheists, answer that
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Hitler was a Catholic, what's your point? And what does it have to do with the Catholic Church? Do you have an actual point here? Yes you do not need to be religious to murder lots of people.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 Hitler gave up Catholism before the first world war, also he murdered 3,000,000 Polish Catholics as well as 3,000 Catholic Clergy, some Catholic No what is your point, my point is very clear, you should look at the behaviour of your fellow Atheists before you critiscise Catholics, and by the way where is your evidence that the Catholic Church condems Mr Fry
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Mr. Fry is gay. He is condemned by the Catholic church as are all homosexuals, unless there was a recent change in policy I was not informed about. German Wehmacht soldiers in WW2 wore "Gott mit uns" (God is with us) belt buckles. Mein Kampf was published in 1925, after WW1, and Hitler makes numerous statements about being a Christian. Hitler was not an atheist! Germany was a Christian country! I mean really, get real.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 That why Hitler murdered 3,000,000 Catholics and 3,000 Catholic Clergy, If he was such a Catholic why did he marry Eva Braun in a civil Ceromony. Well your fellow Atheist Stalin persecuted Gay people, and I never heard of any priest turning away a Gay person from a Catholic Church, of course Fry blamed Catholics for building the concentration camp camp in Auschwitz in 2009, maybe you would to comment on that, Russia was also Christian until Stalin and Lenin murdered Christians
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Why don't you explain why Pope John Paul apologized in 1998 about the behavior of the Catholic church during WW2? The Catholic Church is very anti-gay, they are against equal rights for gays and if you believe otherwise you are a fool. Hitler killed lots of people, including Catholics, not because he a Catholic, but because he was Hitler.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 The behaviour of the Catholic Church during World War 2 , enlighten me. Now tell me about your hero Fry blaming Polish Catholics for building Auschwitz. If the Catholic Church is so anti Gay why was Oscar Wilde received into the Catholic Church when he was near death and given a Catholic funeral, or why was Siegfried Sassoon received into the Catholic Church. Last year I was at the funeral of a gay friend of mine a devout Catholic and he got a beautifull Catholic funeral.
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Why don't you tell me as you're the expert on the Catholic Church here. I haven't even gotten into the really nasty stuff, such as them protecting child molesters and actively promoting child rape and molestation. The Catholic Church teamed up with the Mormon Church to spend millions passing prop 8 which outlawed gay marriage in California. From their website: "The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law." You are clueless.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 " several of of my friends gay and straight male and female had sex with adults between the ages of 9 and 13 , none of them say they were abused all say it was their concious choiche and gave them great joy.. Not all sex involving children is unwanted abusive and harmfull." Now who said that, the Pope Bishops or Priests, no no no, why it was Peter Tatchell the Gay rights campaigner, who shared a platform with the great Dawkins in London 2010
ballinora53 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 Now why did you fail to adress my question to you about your hero Fry blaming Catholic Poles for constructing the death of Auschwitz, and was not your hero Hitchens a Marxist a thing he had in common with Lenin Stalin Mao, Yes LKenin had a moustache, but what Lenin did that most people did not do was to murder peoplebecause they were Christians, and as I said he closed their Churches and opened Museums of Atheism,
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 "The behaviour of the Catholic Church during World War 2"
One word: Reichskonkordat.
End of story.
TomFynn 1 month ago
@TomFynn Strange you forget to mention the agreement between the communist/Atheist regime of the Soviet Union and the Nazis in Munich,The plan was to divide up parts of Europe betwenn those two Juntas, but Hitler got greedy and invaded the the Soviet in 1941. The Receichkordonet was signed in 1933. six years before World War 2
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Ah, whataboutery. Love it.
TomFynn 1 month ago
@TomFynn You got your answer
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 A reply. Not an answer.
TomFynn 1 month ago
@ballinora53 And you also miss an important point. Mao, Stalin, Hitler were power crazed megalomaniacs. They did not do their actions out of atheist convictions. Whereas when bin Laden orders his thugs to crash planes into office buildings, when popes ordered the Crusades, when Muslims bomb each other constantly, they are doing it BECAUSE of their religious conviction. There is no logical way to tie actions like genocide out of non-belief in a deity.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 Well the famous Hitchens supported tjhe Russian Revolution which was the cause of the murderous regime in the Soviet Union, and I am not a Muslim so please do not be tieing me up with them, and why are you so troubled about the Crusades?
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Obviously you've never had a history course on the Russian Revolution, buddy.
MinimoviesInc 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 I am missing no point , you came on this thread supporting Hitchins who had a hatred of Catholics, you proceed to blame Catholics for many of the evils in the world, I am turning the table around for yout o look at the misery and death piled on Catholics and other Christiansby Atheists. Lenin murdered Clergy, closed their churches and in their place opened Museums Of Atheism, as for bringing Muslims into the argument, I am not a Muslim take up your complaint with them
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 You are spouting total nonsense. Lenin murdered atheists as well. He was not a leader of an "atheist church" as there is no such thing. Lenin also had a mustache (so did Hitler). Does that mean all men with mustaches should be condemned? Like I said, and like Dawkins and Hitchens have said, there is no line from atheism, no dogma, no scripture (since they do not exist) to these actions.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 You have gone silent, I wonder why, You do not like me telling the truth about your heroes Fry and Tatchell
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 Because you're an unstable nutter.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 I am vey stable , not like your buddies Tatchill and Fry, and what did I hear about the great Fry doing time for credit card fraud. You cannot answer my questions that is why you have to try and insult me, your remarks say more about you than about me
ballinora53 1 month ago
@ballinora53 I don't know who Tachill is. Fry is an actor who i don't think should be demonized because of his sexual orientation. I don't recall calling Fry a hero. I don't ever recall other Fry or Hitchens saying "Because we are so wonderful and have been divinely inspired everything we say should be followed and everything we do is holy." They are both human beings and have human flaws.
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
@Ericwvb2 I agree, :)
Midnight0Mistress 1 month ago
Ha ha ha I will miss his wit so much. After the pope dies and before the next one is selected, the world will briefly have no one who is infallible!
Ericwvb2 1 month ago
Black people aren't clapping.
rsmandudeguy 1 month ago
He really was fantastic, wasn't he?
LatumWay 1 month ago 59
@LatumWay
Er.....no, no he wasn't.
The only thing he ever destroyed was his own credibility, unfortunately.
DastardlyDawkins 1 month ago
@DastardlyDawkins Going to elaborate on that 'DastardlyDawkins'?
LatumWay 1 month ago
@LatumWay He doesn't need to. That one video alone showed what he was about. If you can't see why someone constantly standing up and telling the truth about religions and institutions that have caused the death and suffering of many isn't heartening and inspirational then I don't know what is.
oBARFLYo 1 month ago 27
@oBARFLYo
He's blatantly cherry picking in order to sensationalise & scaremonger, which in turn boosts book sales.....it's the tactic of the gutter tabloid press.
"They're all monsters i tell you, every last one of 'em."
DastardlyDawkins 1 month ago
@DastardlyDawkins
Dont imagine that it goes unnoticed that you offer no arguement to what Hitchens says.
One of the many You Tube prolls who like to provoke and who have nothing constructive to say.
romber58 1 month ago
@DastardlyDawkins I'd have to say that child rape and the spread of aids are pretty big fucking cherries, wouldn't you agree?
IamTreebeardword 1 month ago
@oBARFLYo . Explain the millions murdered by the Atheists /Communists. who were Marxists, and was not Hitchins a Marxist, and did he not think the Russian Revolution was a good thing?
ballinora53 1 month ago
@LatumWay
Yes he was and his loss to reason and enlightment is great.
Intervalintime 1 month ago
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@Intervalintime
I mean't to say: his loss to reason and enlightment is a great sadness.
Intervalintime 1 month ago
@LatumWay No he was not fantastic. I don't call ad-hominem fantastic. I would have liked to see a good atheist refute a religious person with logic and rationale. Hitchens was an asshole only lining his pockets. He was no Bertand Russell or Jean Paul Sartre or Nietzsche. What is even worst is that t that your typical atheist pays to see this shit. I could have done a better job refuting this religionist. What an awful "debate." Atheists settle for too little from con-men lining their pockets.
123WalshJack 1 month ago
@123WalshJack "I could have done a better job refuting this religionist." LOL.
TomFynn 1 month ago
@LatumWay Why is it that the most awesome people in the world have to die right before we learn about them? Hitchens... G. Carlin... whyyyyy?
sesshii 1 month ago
'pastoral care' part was an ouch moment
but picking at the flaws of Catholicism at this point is unnecessary
PorkFrog 1 month ago
A large portion of the universal rational mind crumbled upon Christopher's death x
TheOliverTaylor 1 month ago
I do believe in God.I am Christian. God is a Spirit which we cant see. There have been People in history (Moses Jesus Abraham) Which have had spiritual encounters. There are some People that have the idea that atheists are assholes n will burn in hell. Guys..God in my opinion accepts people if you have done good. If you r Catholic but killed n stealed in life will you go to heaven? of course not. If you are a good person on earth God will reward you. Atheists r not evil. just lack faith n belief
varone6t9 1 month ago
@varone6t9 Well it is refreshing to see a christian who does not believe atheists worship Satan. Not much else is in favour of your points. You argue that god cannot be seen, but that he appeared to select individuals, lets consider this premise. God stays silent for 98 thousand years of human history then decides to intervene, not where people have built great empires, not where people can read and write, but to a tribe of primitive nomadic goat herders. That makes a lot of sense (not)
ShouldersofGiants100 1 month ago
@varone6t9 Sir, or Ma'am you are wise. You have a well rounded mind. I'm Atheist, and I shall respect your beliefs.
tonyhell234 1 month ago
@tonyhell234 Thanks man. I am a dude btw :P lets just make the best of what we have been given.
varone6t9 1 month ago
not exactly very hard is it >>.<<
johnjoeba 1 month ago
Sadly it was Christopher Hitchen's death which allerted me to his existence. Since then I have been deeply moved by his logic and oratory skills. Truly a latter day Cicero or John Locke.
AntiochusMegas 1 month ago
@AntiochusMegas Hear, Hear!
TheOliverTaylor 1 month ago
Good night sweet prince.
GT40XzX 1 month ago
I love Christopher Hitchens may his words last forever. So true so honest. We need his words more than the babble in any bronze age scripture.
321scully 1 month ago
damn Hitchens just tore into them on this one standing ovation may Hitchens rot peacefully
3TREY87 1 month ago
I got a little teary, great video
seeversified 2 months ago
Lmao, "Hitchslapped!"
That should be a more widely known phrase.
Vimtox 2 months ago
I don't entirely agree with Hitchens' take on God BUT I enjoy that baritone voice of his. It is a voice I could listen to throughout the day.
nkadzi 2 months ago
Summary: "Hey Y'all Church sucks go do whatever!"
SwadianMilitary 2 months ago
I used a concept in order to convey an idea to you. That idea was the result of my indulging your desire to open up a sideshow to the main debate, which i felt i had concluded anyway. You did not acknowledge the satisfactory end of the main debate, and now you are not acknowledging the satisfactory end of this little sideshow.
Seems like it was not about the subject matter but the ego involved. Bye!
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
Alternative: Hitchen say: Look - Catholics - They bad.
I say: What is "bad"? If bad is universal system of human values, then why hold back from judging Communism by it (relevance: it's atheism in government, he is atheism in person), why just attack Catholicism? Hitchens now = Hypocrite.
Hitchens begins speech with "who am i to ask?" Implying human values are relative - so by his own tacit admission - he is just being Absurd, not Hypocrite. Absurd in line with his always being sozzled anyway.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx Communism is more like a religion though. They're both personality cults, demand submission, it has doctrines, claim to be peaceful while theyre not, and a lot more similarities. Kim Il Sung turned sand into rice, Jesus turned water into wine and their followers believe it without hesitation. The only reason why Communist countries dont allow religion is because they want people to worship the leader of the country and follow his doctrine, instead of some imaginary God.
OhReallyNoWai 2 months ago
@OhReallyNoWai That is so cool. Also, i saw the sea on a television program and it had waves on it. The waves were moving up and down. It was like in a bathtub, but on a larger scale. Also, the water looked much darker than in a bathtub. I imagine the water was colder than in a bathtub as well - but that depends on:
1. Whose bathtub
2. What temperature the water in the bathtub usually is (personal taste)
To cut a long boring message short, communism is atheism. Duh.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx Communism is not the same as atheism, theyre 2 different things. Communism is governed the same way as a monotheistic religion. Theyre both personality cults with a doctrine, not submitting will be severely punished. Atheism merely describes the absence of the belief in a deity, so that's the only one thing atheism and communism have in common... Although, most communist leaders have performed miracles and present themselves as deity-like beings, just like Jesus did.
OhReallyNoWai 2 months ago
@OhReallyNoWai Communists per se are atheists. They might perform miracles, which may / may not be genuine. But the religious beliefs are focused on atheism, i.e. no supernatural / supersensible etc. deity. Maybe they see themselves as god-head-like. But they'll never proclaim themselves to be divine - cos that wouldn't be atheism. For e.g.: China pre-communism probably had god-kings, as did Japan once. There's a clear break between that & Communism. Conclusion: Communism is a form of atheism.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx First rule of the 10 commandments: You shall have no other gods before me.
That is exactly the same reason why communist leaders forbid religion, they want you to worship them and follow their doctrine. Why have your people worship some God, if they can worship you? It are tools for controling people. In most communist countries, people with a mind of their own were slaughtered. The same happened in the history of most mainsteam monotheistic religions.
OhReallyNoWai 2 months ago
@OhReallyNoWai It's interesting re: Kim Jong Il's miracle. I've read in an 18th cent (1700s) book about atheistic miracle workers in India, during a time of famine, one atheist guy was able to just blow on bits of pottery and alchemically transmute it into gold. I wouldn't entirely rule it out - as the universe really is weird.
Anyway if there's something i don't understand, i'd like you to clarify - communists are all atheists, miracles or not, yes?
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx Officially communists claim to be atheists, yes. They say that regardless of their own personal beliefs, just to fit in the system. I would say the same if I were a Christian but had the chance of being put in a deathcamp if they found out. You were claiming: "communism is atheism", but atheism merely describes a disbelief and not a political ideology. I was just pointing out the communism is more similar to organized religion.
OhReallyNoWai 2 months ago
Dude im gonna have to draw a line under this. I said comm. is atheism. You said atheism isn't necessarily politics.
So what? i never said atheism is communism, i said comm. is atheism so ur point is moot. Plain to see.
Other reasons u offered 4 communism bein deist / theist / wateva, & not atheism per se:
1. Citing 10 commandments, commies act like god, so they ban religion to avoid god's punishment??
2. Xtians dont want 2 go concentration camp, so they say they r commies??
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@OhReallyNoWai You put deist / theist context to communism that is ephemeral at best ("it isn't, therefore it is!").
Then you say "maybe secretly they were deist / theist / xtian, so communist isn't atheism!" - pure imagination.
Also, whatever some factory worker secretly thinks, the top man & his system is godless, atheistic, not supernatural, purely materialistic. Hence i say communism is atheism. It doesn't get simpler, just leave it there, bye.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx I know what you are trying to say, but then it should be "communism is atheistic". It seems like you didn't understand most of the things I was saying. I was pointing out that monotheistic religions have the same way of controling people as communist governments (such as using fear, doctrines, indoctrination, and false promises). Apart from the creation and afterlife nonsense, there isn't much difference. I'm glad you wanna leave it at that, I'm also done with it. Peace
OhReallyNoWai 1 month ago
@OhReallyNoWai Ok but at my common level of English, you can say someone has been kind, or you can say someone has shown kindness, both seem valid (re: comm. is atheism vs. comm. is atheistic).
And yes there is a lot of ahem "shepherding" in Catholicism, but l was trying to be aloof to both Catholicism and Communism. Anyway thanks for replying, your replies really made me think about things.
hatloverxxx 1 month ago
I already mentioned the European countries. Also: He is saying: Look - Catholics - They bad.
You must agree he is saying that.
I say: What is "bad"? Bad must be relative. Only thing on screen to compare Catholic with is Hitchens. Hitchens = Atheist. Atheism in person = atheism. Atheism ruling land per se i.e. as pure Atheist rule = Communism. So Hitchens tacitly compares Catholic with Communist. Communist equal or worse than Catholic. So argument engine dont even start = non-starter = Absurd.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx Your logic fails, Just Because Most Of A Was B, doesn't mean all of B Equals A. Example, Right Wing in the US are Mainly christian, this doesn't follow that all Christians are Right Wing, hell there are Christian Leftists and Christian Socialists, hell there are even Christian Communists maybe you should do your research a bit better :)
vampyres32 1 month ago
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@vampyres32 I was using semantics. I'm aware there were communists of religious backgrounds in Soviet Union - they even got all Xtian during siege of Leningrad.
There are demonic Xtians & angelic Atheists. That doesn't mean evil is a class of Xtian, or religious is a class of Atheist. Look at things in themselves. Communism / Marxism is atheistic.
There'll always be lost sheep on either side. Don't bounce your argument off absurd scenarios ("all Xtians are right wing") to appear valid.
hatloverxxx 1 month ago
Read your comment again. What communist or fascist regimes have done is irrelevant to what the catholic church has done. Your comment is merely an attempt to divert attention from the issue at hand.
lewisner 2 months ago
@lewisner Absurdity renders an argument void. Hitchins was a prominent atheist. He was saying Catholics are bad. Bad in relation to what? (Atheists must admit morals are relative) He doesn't say in relation to what. So one must assume he means in relation to atheism, which is what he was always defending. So i then went on to show that atheism has been responsible for as much / worse. So as far as the relative badness of Catholicism goes - his argument was shown to be absurd. Rebuttal please.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx said "He was saying Catholics are bad. Bad in relation to what? (Atheists must admit morals are relative) "
Bad in relation to normal human values. He doesn't have to explain relative values since he assumes his audience have a reasonale level of intelligence. Plus he is speaking to an audience of theists and non theists and the topic is not the evils of communism or fascism.
lewisner 2 months ago
@lewisner The thrust of your argument is "normal human values". That is a nebulous concept. Name one thing that is against "normal human values" (as you declare them) and show that it's not common practice in some cases, by a normal human society.
Anyway, if he is not logically absurd then he is a hypocrite at least. You choose.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx First acknowledge my point that the actions of communist regimes are irrelevant to the actual debate which is the subject of the video.
Paedophilia is not common practice in normal human society - if you know better, correct me.
You said "Anyway, if he is not logically absurd then he is a hypocrite at least. You choose."
He is neither. Tell me how he is a hypocrite.
lewisner 2 months ago
@lewisner The actions of communist regimes is relevant because they either make Hitchens' argument absurd, or if this made-up notion of Normal Values is ratified, they make the atheist Hitchens a hypocrite. So it's crucial to two major results.
Re: Paedophilia. If u mean before puberty (true meaning) - it's legal in one major religion's book of law (Jewish Talmud, 3 years + 1 day)
As Age of consent - the age in many European countries would have meant jail in America & vice versa.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx Hitchens was an atheist but not a communist. I'm an atheist but I regard all political parties as charlatans. If you have a point to make you are not making it well.
You give me an example of paedophilia endorsed by religion? Round of applause!
Which European countries? Be specific please.
lewisner 2 months ago
@lewisner Bit late for that, looks like you're changing tack, but anyway, if an atheist were to leave his wine cellar, and actually rule a nation under a specifically atheist code (not secular, but atheist) - it would be dictatorship (one man wielding complete power, just as with religion) with emphasis on socialism and maybe oligarchy to oil the gears. I call that Communism. But then again, i don't distinguish between Marxism and Communism etc, - all atheism turned state religion.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx Bit late for what? I'm glad you agree communism is a state religion, thus disproving your own point.
Which are those European countries you spoke of?
lewisner 2 months ago
@lewisner I think Italy and France used to have the age of consent at 12-14 until the 90s (for females at least). I think some European countries still have it as low as 14 or 15, which is definitely illegal in America (16-18). And if an American state has it at 16, well that's not good for a European country that has it at 17 or 18. And yes, i heard it used to be 10 in America about a century ago. Also, some want it to be 21. Mixed human values. P.S. This pedo debate is ultra boring.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@lewisner And oh yeah, human values like "don't kill civilians, especially women & children, hey screw it, don't kill anyone for anything" - sounds good & fair, but some people strongly disagree. Take for example Hitchens, war activist (i'm so not going to endorse or reject war in this debate). But my point is made - there is no absolute human value system in atheism. So, it's relative, & it must mean relative to atheism a la Communism, aka bloodbath - making his arg. against Catholics absurd.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago
@hatloverxxx i mean, in this debate - his moral yardstick by which he judges Catholicism must be implicitly against the standards of atheist government - a la Communism. Which has a worse / equal record compared to Catholicism - rendering his argument absurd, a non-starter. And if there is a universal human value system - then he has deliberately only applied it to Catholicism, & not to Communism, rendering his argument hypocritical. I struggled with this but i think i got it.
hatloverxxx 2 months ago