Ken Kellet built a 1903 Wright Flyer for the 75th anniversary at Kitty Hawk (1978). He then flew it for a John Denver Special (Flight) a couple years later. For some reason Kellet's flights in his 1903 Wright Flyer have not been recognized as they should.
@a330ftw Too simplify, yes. It was a horizontal rudder, today we call it a canard. Think in terms of maximum efficiency. Having a horizontal rudder meant that there was less of a power required.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 15: Where was Santos Dumont during all this, he was no where to be found and it was 6 months before he finally had his first true success at flight, but then it was with a machine that was for all purposes a simple toy and of no practical value. A few months after that, he announced his retirement from all aviation activities and that didn't even make the Paris newspapers. So you see Verdelufe, that's why I WON"T give up teaching you the real history of the airplane!
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 14: There were only about 200-250 people there that first day, within a week, the crowds seen at LeMans were numbering in the thousands, two weeks later, Wilbur had to move their operations over to d'Auvours, 4km east, which was much bigger. Soon, Royalty from all over Europe arrived to view the "King of the Skies" which the Paris newspapers dubbed Wilbur Wright as. While in Paris 2 weeks later, Wilbur was subjected to a 5min standing ovation from the French Senate.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 13: After Wilbur made those 3 high-banked 180° soaring turns, passing high over the heads of those out there that day, he gently landed on the auto race track directly in front of the gathered crowd, and then shut his engine down. For a moment there was stunned silence, then everyone burst into wild cheering, with some newspaper reporters seen with tears streaming down their cheeks. Young boys rode their bikes to town yelling "Il vole, Il vole!" (he flies, he flies!)
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 12: At 5:50pm on 8Aug1908, Wilbur Wright took off from a field called "Hunaudieres", just outside of LeMans, France with a machine called the Wright Flyer III "A" and the world would never be the same after. Witness were Delagrange, Bleriot, Archdeacon, G.Voisin, FAI officials, Paris newspaper reporters and a couple of hundred locals. Wilbur took-off, climbed to about 20m height, then stunned the crowd when he banked 45° and soared through a 180°, not once, but 3 times.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 11: On 8Aug1908, EVERYTHING changed. Wilbur Wright, who had been down at LeMans since the previous May, announced he was going begin a series of flight trials with the 1st production version WFlyer. All of France had been airplane crazy, but they hadn't been treated to much, yes several ACdeF members (Delagrange, Farman, Pelterie, Bleriot, and de Pischoff) had flown 10+ km in a straight line, but most others just couldn't get off the ground. Dumont? Unseen since last year!
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt10: 1908 was a real banner year for French aviation and for the future of aviation worldwide. Dumont had all but retired from aviation activities, except he was occasionally seen flying his No16 airship, but the Paris newspapers had gone airplane crazy, Delagrange and Farman were almost daily setting FAI records for distance, which was being measured in kilometers not meters and they weren't alone, thre were dozens more trying. Farman had even flown a circle, 1st in Europe.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 9: After Dumont's short 145m hop on 21Nov1907 with his modified Bleriot TypeIII mono-wing (M18), which Dumont would in 1909 call his "Demosielle", he denounced HTAs and went back to his No.16 airship, claiming that only LTAs showed any promise for the future. Even that comment was ignored by the press, as Henri Farman was making headlines for his attempts at winning the Grand Prix de Aviation (flying a circle). Dumont didn't touch HTAs again until Jan1909.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 8: During 1907, none of the Paris newspapers had anything concerning Dumont, except for the rift that had formed between him and majority of the ACdeF membership and of course, his many failures throughout the year. All of the Paris newspapers had headlined all year, the many successes of the other members, nothing about Dumont. By the end of 1907, Dumont's total time in the air (HTAs) was 59sec, 20sec less than Orville had done in a single flight with a glider in 1903.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 7: On 17Nov1907, Dumont made several attempts with his modified M15 biplane (M17), but all he could do was one hop of 203m (witnesses said he touch twice, but because he immediately got back up, the FAI gave it to him). Others (Delagrange-Farman-Bleriot-Viua-de Pischoff) had all gone further, some over 600 or 700m earlier, so Dumont modified Bleriot's TypeIII mono-wing (M18) & on 21Nov had 1 hop of 145m. Dumont announced that HTAs were useless and he went back to LTAs.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 6: On 11July1907, Bleriot flew his TypeIII mono-plane for a distance of 150m, then a few more times that year, and finally for 186m in September, then he gave it to his friend, Dumont. Dumont was very distressed, according to Bleriot, as it seemed everyone in France was flying except him, several ACdeF members had flown much further than his (Dumont's) 220m hop the previous Nov. So Dumont rebuilt his M15 biplane (now his M17) and Bleriot's little mono-wing and tried again.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 5: In April1907, Dumont brought the 14bis back out (he had paid for it so it was his), but after two days of trying he could do no more than bounce across a field. Dumont then went back to his No.16 airship and pretty much stayed with that for the rest of the year. Meanwhile, Delagrange, Bleriot, Farman, Voisin, Pelterie, Viua, dis Pischoff, and others were having a banner year power hopping their machines, Delagrange&Farman filling the headlines almost daily.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 4: Archdeacon stepped in an convinced Delagrange "not" to revoke Dumont's membership, so the ACdeF members became a bit divided among those who supported Dumont (Bleriot was about the only one, but only because he and Voisin greatly disliked each other) and those who didn't (which was just about everyone else at the ACdeF). In Feb1907, Dumont rolled the first machine "he" had designed (M15), but it was so poorly designed and built, it just fell apart during a taxi.
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 3: A few weeks after Dumont had that one power hop of a few meters, he broke an unwritten rule at the ACdeF, when he lied to a Paris newspaper reporter. Dumont publicly stated "he" had designed the 14bis, when in fact it was a Voisin/Pelterie design. A couple of days later, Voisin/Pelterie were interviewed by the same reporter and they lambasted Dumont for lying & told him from then on he was on his own. Delagrange moved to have Dumont's membership revoked at the ACdeF.
@Verdelufe "Facts" continued. After several months of attempts, Dumont managed a couple of short forced power hops, one in Oct of just a few meters and a second on 13Nov1906, but it wasn't much of a flight (220m in 21.5s), but it was enough so Archdeacon could splash the newspapers with it. Dumont's short hop was the first "observed" by the newly formed FAI, so at Archdeacon's prompting, the FAI initially miscalled it "First Flight", despite it was 80m shorter than Ader's from 9 years prior.
@Verdelufe "Facts" continued. Dumont told Archdeacon he knew NOTHING about HTA flight, so Archdeacon arranged for G.Voisin and R.E. Pelterie to design and build a machine for him. Using the Hargrave kites they had and the blueprints of the Wright's 1902 glider from the ACdeF magazine L'Aerophile, Voisin/Pelterie built a machine for Dumont he called the 14bis and it was classified by the ACdeF as a "Type du Wright". The 14bis was terribly ill-designed, lacking airfoils and a control system.
@Verdelufe What are "actual" facts concerning Dumont? He was greatly successful with LTAs (dirigibles) between about 1899 and 1902.
In 1905, Dumont attempted to fly (get off the ground) with a helicopter he had designed, but it dramatically dissembled itself the first time he tried to run it.
In 1906, Archdeacon urged Dumont to attempt HTA flight after the ACdeF confirmed the Wright's flew over 30km the previous year. Dumont didn't believe HTA flight was possible, but he went ahead anyway.
@Verdelufe Once the book "From The Ground Up" is released, I think you'll have a better understanding of really happened back then. Especially during those years between 1906 and 1910 in France. Based on the actual facts, from the actual individuals and groups involved at the time, I'm at a loss as to why the name Santos Dumont is even mentioned in realation to the development of the powered HTA machine.
@Verdelufe You stated "...What is the big deal for Dumont being the OFFICIAL FIRST TO FLY. You have to accept like most countries do."
The problem is Verdelufe, its simply not true, Dumont wasn't first, either "officially" or "unofficially". If it was just a matter of semantics, then I wouldn't even discuss it, but the reality of what happened at the turn of the century and who was truly involved with the development of the airplane is too big a deal not to get it right.
@warp13 Trivia 4: Despite the extraordinarily high sales of the Wright's Flyer A (62 in Germany, 17 in France, and 7 in England) and then their Flyer B (22 in Europe and 111 in North America), nearly 70% of the Wright Aeroplane Company profit was from licensing their technology! The Wright's business journal showed that by December31,1910, the Wright's company had a gross profit of $220,000, of which $154,000 was from fee collections. Mostly collecting from those flying in exhibition.
@warp13 Trivia 3: After Chanute cabled Capt Ferber at the ACdeF in late Oct1905, informing him of the Wright's Oct flights at Huffman-Prairie (Orville had flown 33km and Wilbur 39km the first week of October), it was an American businessman living in Paris, L.S. Lahm, that was also a member of the ACdeF who cabled HS Weaver and asked him to go over to Dayton an confirm the flights, which he did! 4 years later, Orville's first military passenger at Ft Myer was Lt Lahm, L.S. Lahm's son.
@warp 13 Trivia 1: Did you know that Henri Farman and his brother (Maurice) were Paris based bicycle manufacturers, before they became aircraft experimenters?
Trivia 2: Henri Farman became pretty good friends with Wilbur in 1908 and was the first "individual" to receive a users license from the Wrights. In January of 1909, Henri designed a trailing edge control surface for lateral control of his Voisin-Farman II biplane (ailerons as we know them today).
@warp13 In March1910, when Dumont announced his retirement from all aviation activities, his total logged flight time in HTAs was 38m 22s. There already were more than 50 aviators (Europe and in the USA) that had accumulated more time in the air than that. Several aviators had even exceeded that time in a single flight. Both Wilbur & Orville Wright had each exceeded Dumont's lifetime total flight hours by the end of 1904.
Question: When Wilbur took his last airplane ride, who was the pilot?
@warp13 If you have a chance, check out what Orville did at Kitty Hawk (Sept1911) with their 1911 glider? He set an endurance (single flight) record of 9m 38s, a soaring record that stood until 1921. Not bad considering he started from a sand dune that was only 30m high. Did you also know that Orville's total accumulated flight time in their gliders (1902-1903 and 1911) was more than Santos Dumont's total flight time in powered HTAs? Pretty interesting I thought.
@Verdelufe Prt 4: Dumont did enter the M20 version of his Demoiselle (the machine that Bleriot had given him back in 1907, which only worked after Bleriot & Wilbur fixed for him in Jan1909) in to the August1909 air race at Rheims, France. Unfortunately, Dumont had so little experience flying a working HTA, he failed to qualify, but 36 other aviators did. Dumont's Demoiselle was too slow and too ill-handling to of been of any use. After crashing his M22 in Mar1910, Dumont retired from aviation.
@Verdelufe Prt 3 Because Dumont had been so successful with his LTAs in 1899-1902, he gained a deserved level of supporters in Paris and beyond. The reality of Santos Dumont and any evidence of his success in an HTA simply does NOT exist my friend. Bleriot gave Dumont his typeIII mono-wing, which Bleriot had been fairly successful with several months earlier, but Dumont wasn't able to have it work. In 1909, after Bleriot&Wilbur fixed it for him, Dumont finally flew for the 1st time on 13Feb1909.
@Verdelufe Prt 2: Dumont's first attempt, with a machine of his own design, was in Feb1907 and his M15 biplane, but it was so poorly designed and constructed, it simply fell apart when attempted to taxi. His April 07 attempts with the 14bis failed after two days of trying at Issy, then in Nov07, he tried a rebuilt version of his M15 biplane (M17), but again he failed. Bleriot gave Dumont his TypeIII mono-wing but again he failed, so he went back to his No.16 airship and didn't try again until 09
@Verdelufe The book "From The Ground Up" reveals, not only the private letters about Dumont from his friends, the official record of his flights in 1906/1907, but also the many newspaper reports on him during and after his 1906 "non-record" flight attempts. The Paris newspapers were not too kind to Dumont after he was caught lying to a Le Matin newspaper reporter, in Jan1907, then after his continous string of failed flight attempts in 1907 Dumont retired from all HTA flight attempts until 1909.
@MrAlepedroza Part 13: In part 9, I mentioned the 35 acheivement awards, but the Wrights also received 15 honorary doctrates, including engineering doctrates from the University of Munich (Germany), the University of Paris, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Yale and Harvard Universities (over in America), the University of London, and Wilbur Wright personally received the French Academy of Science Honorary Doctrate for his Engineering Acheivement of World Merit.
flight was finally attained, it will be seen that this success was not won by spending more time than others had spent, nor by taking greater risks than others had taken. Those who failed for lack of time had already used more time than was necessary; those who failed for lack of money had already spent more money than was necessary; and those who were cut off by accident had previously enjoyed as many lucky escapes as reasonably could be expected….”! "Wilbur Wright"
@warp13 Part B: "it was not only necessary to make progress, but it was necessary to make progress at a sufficient rate to reach the goal before money gave out, or before accident intervened, or before the portion of life allowable for such work was past. The problem was so vast and many-sided that no one could hope to win unless he possessed unusual ability to grasp the essential points, and to ignore the nonessentials. When the detailed story is written of the means by which success in human
@warp13 Part A: A few days before Wilbur Wright got sick in 1912, he wrote an article for the Aero Cub of America, which they published a few months after his death. The following is an excerpt from that article:
“……..One of the greatest difficulties of the problem has been little understood by the world at large. This was the fact that those who aspired to solve the problem were constantly pursued by expense, danger, and time. In order to succeed
@MrAlepedroza@warp13 Part 12: This book called "From The Ground Up" was authored by an American, but includes material sourced from 4 continents, dozens of historians and aeronautical/aerospace engineers and was researched from National Archives, private and public databases, personal letters, official and unofficial documents, world wide musuem archives, personal journals, written memiors, etc. etc. etc.. I think the most amazing thing in this book are the period photographs! Its astounding.
@MrAlepedroza Part 11: Every successful aircraft ever flown to this day, owes its ability to fly through the sky under the control of its pilots to Wilbur and Orville Wright, period. Very soon a new book (it hasn't been officially released yet) called "From The Ground Up" will clear up all questions anyone will have about the early pioneers of aviation. I was sent a copy of it a couple of months ago and its fantastic. This book is the accumulation of material collected from 10 years of research.
@MrAlepedroza Part 10: In addition to the awards of acheivement the Wrights received, they were also presented with 15 honorary doctrates between them, including engineering doctrates from the University of Munich (Germany), the University of Paris, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Yale and Harvard Universities (over in America), the University of London, Wilbur Wright personally received the French Academy of Science Honorary Doctrate for his engineering acheivement of world merit.
@MrAlepedroza Part 9: Are you aware of the awards Wilbur and Orville received? By the end of 1909, the Wrights had received over 35 awards, not for flying, but for their technological achievement. Of the awards, was included The Aero Club de France Gold Medal of achievement, the French Legion of Honour, the US Congressional Medal of Honor, the French Academy of Sciences Gold Medal, the British Science of Honor gold medal, etc. etc. Wilbur was even nominated for a Nobel in science/engineering!
@MrAlepedroza Part 8: The Wrights, particularly Wilbur, didn't like flying as they were engineers not aviators. This is why they each generally refused to fly in exhibition or for flight awards. After Wilbur began his demonstrations of their technology, applied to their Flyer III platform, on 8Aug1908, he turned down several offers. As soon as the Wrights got the first batch of people trained at their flight center in Pau, Wilbur retired from flying himself and went back to engineering work.
@MrAlepedroza Part 7: When Dumont had those two short hops in late 1906 (24Oct and 13Nov), they were neither the first flights nor were they record flights of any kind. That is NOT according to me, that is according to the Federation Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) and the Aero Club de France official records. What they were, was "only" the first powered flights "observed" by the then newly formed FAI group, nothing more. The FAI "officially" lists Clement Ader the first to fly on 14Oct, 1897.
@MrAlepedroza Part 6: On 8Aug1908, Wilbur Wright stunned, not only the French, but the entire world at what they had developed, as engineers, over the previous 7 or 8 years. Most today are confused about the Wright's Flyer III "A", as that was merely the platform they used to demonstrate their technology of airfoil design, their high efficiency propellers, their patented 3-axis control system, and most importantly, their overall concept of "Inherent Instability". The Wrights changed everything.
@MrAlepedroza Part 5: Throughout 1907 and the first half of 1908, it was the French aviators that seemed to be progressing with powered HTA machines, with Farman, Delagrange, Bleriot, Pelterie, and Vivan leading the way. Bleriot had given his typeIII mono-wing machine to Dumont, but after Dumont failed to fly past 145m in Nov (1907), Dumont couldn't handle the newspaper reports on him, he gave up and so he went back to his last airship (no. 16) and stuck with LTA flight until 1909.
@MrAlepedroza Part 4: In April1907, Wilbur arrived in Paris to try an finalize a deal with the German, French, English, Austrian, Italian, and Belgium governments on a flying machine, (Orville brought their first production Flyer III to France in July), but they just couldn't get anything done. Had that been done, it was the Wright's intent to give their technology away to everyone free of any patent restraints, but Ferber and Archdeacon fought them at every corner.
@MrAlepedroza Part 3: After Dumont's 2 short forced hops in 1906, he lied to a reporter at the Le Matin (Paris newspaper), so Voisin/Pelterie told Dumont he was on his own, after Delagrange was unable to revoke Dumont's ACdeF membership, Dumont designed his first machine (M15), but was so poorly designed and built, it simply fell apart when Dumont tried to taxi (Feb1907), he failed in April with the 14bis, and then later (Nov) with his M17 biplane and M18 mono-wing, so Dumont gave up until 1909.
@MrAlepedroza Part 2: Dumont had become world famous for his dirigibles, so Ferber & Archdeacon (at the ACdeF) needed someone to best what they had confirmed about the Wrights in Dec1905. Because the Wrights were engineers working on developing a "practical" airplane and avoided reporter interference, Archdeacon knew they only needed to get off the ground for a short distance publicly. Dumont didn't believe HTAs were possible, but Archdeacon convinced him to try with Voisin/Pelterie's help.
A briga provocada pelos irmãos Wright a respeito de repelente, mesquinha, repulsiva e nojenta disputa por dinheiro atrasou a aviação americana durante vinte anos. Durante a I Guerra Mundial tiveram que utilizar aviões franceses, como o Nieuport 17, SPAD VII, o SPAD XIII. Os conhecimentos dos norte-americanos eram tão primários que os franceses empurraram uma porcaria de avião chamado Nieuport 28, produzido em grandes quantidades, e que nenhum piloto francês queria.
Em dezembro de 2003 uma replica tentou alçar vôo e não conseguiu, vergonhosamente. TODAS as réplicas do 14 Bis voam, mesmo as mais elementares, construídas em fundo de quintal. Enquanto os americanos estavam com seu biplano, tanto Blériot, Voisin, Duperdussin e outros já estavam com monoplanos. Dumont construiu um formidável avião, o Demoiselle, NUNCA COBROU NADA POR ISSO, nunca foi mercenário, egoísta, mesquinho, pequeno de caráter.
@CaxiasFreguesia: Voce fala e fala, mais seus unicos argumentos sao cantaletas anti-yankis. Os Wright foiram egoistas e mezquinhos....blablabla. Bearflight claramente mostrou para voce que Dumont nao foi o disenhador do 14-Bis, que mintio a respeito disso, que seus primeros autenticos disenhos (os modelos 15 e 17) nunca conseguiram voar, que o 14 bis so pode ''voar'' em linea recta (porque isso nao e realmente voar) debido a seu inexistente sistema de control...e para que voce saiba,....
@MrAlepedroza O teu problema parece outro, estas sendo discriminado por brasileiros na Foz do Iguacu?
a competicao aprovou como o primeiro voo official na historia mesmo sem curva, 14 Bis tinha ailerons porem era fragil para fazer curva. Agora me mostra onde varios voos da replica de 1903 dos WB foram feitos com sucesso nos dias que antecederam. Nova com tecnologia de ponta crashed WB replica. Tu escutas o Galo cantar e ai começa a inventar. What is your problem ? Vai ler mais sobre aviacao.
@CaxiasFreguesia: .....aquele voo do 2003 em que o Flyer nao consegueu voar so foi porque o clima foi muito mau. Mais esse so nao foi o primer voo da issa replica. Vários voos de prova foram feitos con sucesso nos dias que antecederam....
@MrAlepedroza pois é ... quanto pior o tempo, melhor a geringonça voava ? os irmãos alegam que os origniais do primeiro "avião" foram "... destruídos em um acidente ...". Claro ! Todas as experiências de Blériot, Voisin, Dumont etc eram feitas EM PÚBLICO, ÀS CLARAS. Os Wright enviaram representantes à França que mandavam periodicamente informações sobre as experiências que eram às claras. Depois de 1903, MUITO DEPOIS, alegaram que "...voaram em 1903 ...". Uma farsa ...
@CaxiasFreguesia: I'll continue this debate in english. I'm not even paraguayan, I'm Colombian, and I live in Asuncion, not Foz do Iguacu. And no, I dont have anything against brazilians, I have brazilians friends and met many good Brazilian people.I also dont believe that the Wright bros were the truly fathers of aviation, since there's evidence showing that Richard Pearce and John Whitehead flew before 1903. I also believe Leonardo Da Vinci and Bernoully being the truly fathers of aviation.
@MrAlepedroza You're confusing the difference between who got of the ground first and who actually flew first. When the Wrights first flew in December 1903, we now know that there were probably 8, possibly 9 who had gotten airborne before. Richard Pearse did get off the ground as early as 1902, but he didn't tell anyone about it until 1935. Wieskopf never really did more than bounce, his only witness recanted later, claiming he had been paid $100 by a reporter for a "good" story.
@MrAlepedroza The first known flight of a man-carrying powered HTA was probably Felix du Temple (FR) in 1874, but officially (FAI records) it was Clement Ader (FR) on 14Oct1897 for 300m. Regardless though, they are all interesting, but they were also all irrelevant and as Wilbur Wright explained immediately after he stunned the French on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, when he told everyone that all of their (the Wright's) flights before that date were irrelevant as well.
@MrAlepedroza Part 1: Brazilians have been taught a falsehood concerning Santos Dumont, as he had only made a short uncontrolled pair of flights in late 1906, they were unsustained and uncontrolled. Dumont flew a machine called the 14bis that had been designed and built for him by Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie, but after Dumont lied to a Paris reporter during an interview in Jan1907, Delagrange was going to have Dumont's membership in the ACdeF revoked, but Archdeacon intervened.
Robert Thelan, ALEMÃO, projetista dos famosos caças Albatross afirmou que uma máquina pesando mais de 350 kg jamais levantaria vôo em TODAS as condições com um motor de apenas ... 12 HP.
Mas isso aí é VERGONHOSO. Santos Dumont e outros pioneiros, como Otto Lilienthal, Blériot, Saulnier fizeram suas experiências às claras. Os Irmãos Wright patentearam em 1903 um planador. Escondidos na desculpa da patente, jamais permitiram que alguém conferisse sua máquina, "queriam vender antes" rs, rs, rs. Os descendentes de Orville quando consultados se autorizavam a exposição do engenho no Smithsonian concordaram com uma condição: QUE FOSSE ATRIBUÍDA AOS IRMÃOS a "invenção" do avião.
Part 5: On 13Nov, 1906 (I know a lot of you keep stating that Dumont's 220m power hop was on the 12th, but the FAI states it was the 13th, a Tuesday, so because they were there and I wasn't, I'll go with the FAI records). The Voisin-Pelterie 14bis Dumont flew that day lacked lift producing airfoils (wings) an a control system. The 14bis was a cross design copied from a Hargrave box kite and the Wright brother's 1902 glider. The ACdeF official magazine L'Aerophile detailed this in Dec,1906.
Part 4: In the period between Aug1908 (after Wilbur Wright had demonstrated the world's first successful aircraft at LeMans) and Dec1910, we have documents (photos) showing 204 different HTA designs, of every conceivable description, from France, Italy, Germany, England, and the United States. The world's aviators soon realized that if you wanted to fly, you had better understand and incorporate the Wright's technology for airfoil design and for a viable control system, otherwise give it up.
Part 3: Of all the active aviators with the Aero Club de France, Santos Dumont was the least successful with HTAs. In 1907 and 1908, it was all Delagrange, Farman, Pelterie, Viain, and Bleriot. Dumont was only mentioned during that period for his failures and because of how popular and famous he was for his dirigibles during the period 1898 and 1903. In Feb1909, after Bleriot designed his wings and installed the Wright's control system, Dumont finally flew for the first time.
Part 2: Dumont with his first self-designed machine, his model 15 biplane, tried to get airborne in Feb1907, but his machine was so poorly designed and constructed, it simply fell apart when he attempted to taxi. He tried again in April with the 14bis, but he could do nothing but bounce across the field at Issy. In Nov1907 he again tried with his M17 biplane, but it didn't work. Then with a Bleriot monowing (M18) he hopped for 145m. Dumont then gave up and went back to his dirigibles until 1909.
Part 1: After Dumont had his longest power hop with the Voisin-Pelterie designed machine he (Dumont) called the 14bis, Dumont then lied about who had designed the 14bis to a Paris newspaper reporter in Jan1907, which was rebutted by Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie. Voisin&Pelterie cut all ties with Dumont and Leon Delagrange (President of the ACdeF) seriously considered ejecting Dumont from his ACdeF membership for his lying.
I suggest all of you read the book "From The Ground Up", which has just been published. It is the work of several aviation experts from the UK, USA, and France and details virtually everyone that attempted to fly between 1800 and 1910. This book required over 10 years in research and everything contained in it is fully documented and confirmed for its factual contents. As far as Dumont, he had that one uncontrolled power hop for 220m on 13Nov,1906, that was it.
@Verdelufe@junglemanlawyer1 Flight of an airplane is defined as having the ability for sustained and controlled flight. The Wrights took 6 years (an 7 prototypes) developing the base technology (the science and engineering) before they could successfully demonstrate a machine that felt comfortable enough with for marketing purposes. When Wilbur began his first demonstration flights at LeMans, on 8Aug1908, that was the first time anyone in Europe had seen an airplane fly as we know it today.
Europe, Australia, Japao when talking about Dumont they always have a positive
comment but when comes to America they always denigrade Dumont, the notion that WB invent and were the first has to change they were not the first and did not
have the best plane, everyone contribute till this day to have what we have today. What is the big deal for Dumont being the OFFICIAL FIRST TO FLY. You have to
@Verdelufe - I don't have anything negative to say about Dumont, I just feel that people like you tend to elevate him higher that he deserves based solely on nationalist pride and not on his contribution to HTA flight. Dumont did NOT believe in HTA flight, he was more concerned with balloons-that is a fact. Ader deserves more praise and yet you never mention him, why? You must not read anything that is written-1899-1908 was a proof of concept. It was not simply a flip of the coin.
@Verdelufe It was not about the invention, it was about the way they got there, a piece that you obviously choose to ignore. Instability is something that was not as easy to grasp in 1900 as it is today. Image being high above the ground and having to lean into a turn, the feeling of falling into a turn would have scared anyone. Again they were called flying "machines" they were to be stable platforms in the air, not at all as the Wrights designed them. Their concept was unique.
For those who do not know much about Dumont I suggest to look a video that is an introduction of a documentary called " Santos Dumont Documentary" based
on the book written by Paul Hoffman called " Wings of Madness"
@Verdelufe -Again you are seeing machines that are much improved-not true replicas as this one is in the video. You completely miss the point of what the Wright Bros were about and the point of their experiments at the OBX from 1900-1903, it was proof of concept. Performance would come once problems were solved, first they has to figure it all out.
@warp13 Go to Wright Brothers Flying Machine by NOVA, they built the Flyer III not the First Flyer of 1903,
much better construction replica and used an experienced commercial pilot who crashed into the trees.
Again it proves that the WB were an exceptional glider flyers, many people died trying the Flyer. NACA(before NASA) developed aviation aerodynamics in 1915, don't tell me that WB were the brains of aviation with their wing warping, I know enough about aviation to miss the point.
@Verdelufe-Just to get you facts correct, it was Ken Hyde and a MODEL B, to quote, "We were doing a taxi test trying to learn how to control the plane when it jumped into the air," he explained. "We had not planned on going flying." Regarding the accident you mention. As has been posted they were genius' in their approach to the problem of flight and the question of stability. They knew that control was essential-power would follow.
@warp13 What significance does it has "Just to get you facts correct " It does not matter who was the experienced pilot and which Flyer Model, if does not look like the first 1903 model WB claimed flew.
Are you complaining of 14 Bis & Demoiselle are not the original replica. Don't change the subject calling
WB genius. Patent Control was their weapon to sue everyone who may create any other imaginable control that might appear in the future. Flyer's Junk. The history of aviation has a wound.
@Verdelufe -The documentary that you watched was about a DIFFERENT machine. It was not about the Flyer although Ken Hyde did work on a replica of the 1903 machine, this was NOT about that machine. I am just clarifying your confusion. A patent is a patent, has it ever been different? Many people through out history have established businesses, employed persons, invested in product development, what is different here? "Flyers junk" how can you make that claim and say you understand aviation?
@warp13 I recently was at the Smithionian museum in the Capitol and visit "Early Flight" you barely could see anything about Henri Farman or Santos Dumont, They could not help but show well a replica of Louis Bleriot that look really like a plane. When I say the Flyer was a Junk I mean comparing to Bleriot's design, they have done nothing to the Flyer completely obsolete, it was OK in 1903 as starting glider but it remained the same all the time. Got it ?
@Verdelufe - I wish you would have told me that you were visiting I would have liked to have met you you there. That would have been fun...I personally favor the Bleriot over ALL early machines, it is my favorite and I have many pictures of the one you saw. They an original XI at Rhinebeck in upstate NY on Saturdays (calm wind) a few feet off the ground past the grand stands-incredible machine. The Flyer was designed with certain considerations in mind, but it was not safe by any means.
@Verdelufe- Having a canard/pusher config provided certain advantages, but was very dangerous to fly. The Bleriot was dangerous as where all early machines, and a hand full to fly, but its tractor design is more practical and what we see today in modern aircraft. Note the XI had no stab. But, by leaving the back portion of the machine uncovered, I believe this provided a degree of longitudinal stability. Did you get a chance to see Udvar- Hazy Center?
@warp13 It looks like we are tuning our conversations, I was planning to see the Udvar-Hazy Center is more futuristic, the reason I could not make it there, was because we rented a car get lost too many times, never could find a parking lot, got a lots tickets and we left one day before the earthquake hit.
@Verdelufe- I have found it to be a hard city to navigate, I suppose it takes time to get use to. we usually stay in Virginia, and commute via subway to DC, the traffic and parking are terrible. I do like to go there, it is a great city with lots of history. I didn't feel the quake, I was in Connecticut at the time and someone asked me about it. Then we had the hurricane, which left us without power for about a day and a half, some people still don't have power. It was not that bad by me.
@warp13 It really takes time to get used to DC, you were right it would be fun to get together and discuss right in front of all the replicas our differences and agreements. It is for sure a fascinating subject everytime I fly a small plane or a 747 I remember all the first flight pioneers, very defying with a lot of guts. I admire all of them. The only problem I have is Americans believe Wrights was the only one and Brazilians believe Dumont was the only one. I don't know if this ever ends.
It does not matter who flew before Nov 12, 1906. The official first flight by a HTA
flying machine was 14 Bis by Dumont PERIOD !!! That was at Bagatelli France a super power at that time. It does not matter how many helped to have a final product like we have today. Don't try to take away the merits that Dumont deserves. With time you all will get used to it. Again Dumont was the man !!!
Stop yelling about Santos Dumont being the first to fly a heavier than air machine. He wasn't. He wasn't even the first to fly in Europe. Ever heard about Maxim in 1894? Or Vuia, March 1906?
This makes me think of a story my aerodynamics professor told. The college used to have a paper airplane competition every year for the aero students who would be designing tomorrow's airplanes. Back in the 60's a hippie walked in and said, "Hey, Man... whats goin' on?" They explained. He took a piece of paper, crumpled it into a ball, threw it across the gymnasium, and won.
That was the last year they had the competition.
So when't the 2nd flight? 15 feet & 5 inches off ground next time?
@malamagr - Nice joke, I've heard something like that before, but it misses the point because you must first understand the concept of flight and the dynamics of control.
FAI conceded recently the world record to an Ultra Light called CEA-308 that flies with a total of 300Kg including Plane + Fuel+ Refig. Water + Pilot Weight from a University in Brazil to see Google " bol1288 " Do not forget that Embraer sells Exec. Jets to Canada & USA - Brazil has tradition in building planes Dumont is not a lone figure.
@warp13 My point was mentioned below about the WB animated videos depicting Dumont with very dark skin like a bandido. A lot of people in US do not know much about many countries, like a lot think Brazil is full of parrots, indians, samba, carnaval and carnal pleasure also many think the capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires, therefore does not deserve any position in invention or technology like a super power. Brazil is the leader in South America and 6th in the world. COMPRENDE, CAPISCE !!!
@Verdelufe I think that this is a personal matter. It is not my opinion. Just like I could say that many people think that the two brothers tossed a coin in the air , one jumped on board the Flyer and you had the instant invention of the flying machine, which is a fabrication. The 1903 flights were eventful, but it was really a span from 1899-1908, that we see the development of their ideas and theories. Also there was no catapult in 1903 and it was level ground.
@warp13 I do not think you understood, personal matter, not your opinion. I am talking about PROPAGANDA Dumont's dark skin from a brazilian jungle changes the opinion of a kid, who grow up thinking deceiving facts, it is not your opinion now because you probably learned from me but 1 year ago, you might had a total different concept about aviation. You have to keep in mind that there was not a single inventor for the plane it was a result of a compilation of many minds, everyone contributed,
@Verdelufe- I think that you are the one who has a prejudice, "dark skin, jungles"??, You obviously have a very low opinion of the average American's intelligence-I can assure you that I have never thought of Brazil as just "jungles". Believe or not we do have schools in America that teach us about places outside our borders. As far as the invention of the airplane being a collaborative effort, one small detail needs to be addressed,and that is stability vs instability.
@Verdelufe _our initial conversation was about replicas, we have drifted off the subject. I have posted a replica, You have made claims to non-replicas, ie, modified versions of what look like a 14-Bis, but under close examination, prove to be otherwise. A replica is an EXACT copy-period. Adding a modern engine and prop, and mods to the airframe change the flight characteristics. This is done for show, nothing wrong with it, but don't think that this represents the actual machine.
@warp13 Back to initial conversation I gave you a Code V0vZWo5gE1U to see how someone built 14 bis
you said it did not have the ailerons and I said it did when Dumont was declared the officially first flight, then you kept quiet, I never dodged it.The ailerons was to make a turn but the14 Bis was made out of bamboo,too fragil. Then came WB pressing charges of copying wing warping. Stop thinking of WB as PHD's felows,stop with words like instability. Everyone held the bull by the horns.
@warp13 It is not personal matter.You keep dodging the animated clips about dark skin,you have not given your opinion on that to close that chapter.Believe me I went to school on both countries nobody better than I to judge how much Americans know about other countries English is not my second language,it is my 4th and very humble.You can not accept the idea that the Wright Brothers is NOT what you learned in school,it is hard,it is like to ask you to change your gender & be in a twilight zone.
@Verdelufe My point was mentioned below about the WB animated videos depicting Dumont with very dark skin like a bandido. A lot of people in US do not know much about many countries, like a lot think Brazil is full of parrots, indians, samba, carnaval and carnal pleasure also many think the capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires, therefore does not deserve any position in invention or technology like a super power. Brazil is the leader in South America and 6th in the world. COMPRENDE, CAPISCE !!!
Santos Dumont grandfather was french Francois Dumont, his father Henri Dumont was born in Brazil then moved back to France to study Engineering then returned to Brazil. His mother Francisca Paula Santos ( she was white, for the racists )
Wright Brothers Part 1-5 Animated clips: To make Alberto Santos Dumont to look like a sinister Captain Hook with a very dark skin is laughble, how racist and ridiculous way to depict Dumont, He went to the best school in Paris to study Science with devotion not a High School dropped outs like the Wright Brothers. His father had a brazilian coffe plantation, very rich Brazilian and his mother also a Brazilian and they were both white. PROPAGANDA MACHINE does not work anymore after Internet.
In 1904 the Wright Brothers requested England to registered a patent of a GLIDER
which was given # 6732. Why registered a glider if they flew first in 1903 according to their picture, by the way you should see the picture looking the glider from the front, it is a huge steep dune, a ramp to go down.
What the hell, as far as the ailerons this was not on his first design "SO WHAT"
he had the ailerons when FAI declared officially the first HTA flight with 220m in Nov. 2006 It has nothing to do with wing warping patent of 2006 which the brothers claimed. In other words europeans aviators were not giving a shit about it, but you know how attorneys get their ways around to screwed 37 aviators, specially Glenn Curtis was ultra pissed off, it was the WOUND that the remains to this day, believe me.
Another Mr. Dodgy, you said nothing about the videos I asked to see, now you come with Flyer III, were the brothers first or not, You have to talk about Flyer I , 1903.
Code 3MXvAaxS8ok you can see the man who built the 14 Bis exactly equal, then he taught his daughter how to fly it. Code V0vZWo5gE1U you can see the ailerons(5:15) not copied from Wrights wing warping Patent(nobody knew about it) on Nov 13 ,1906 when he reached 220m. Everything was made by trial and error, no worries about patent or mathematical calculation. All bamboo ASD's EXACT replica, Demoiselle NO COMMENTS. Your buddy BearFlight also denied,dodged
@Verdelufeby definition, REPLICA, an exact copy or reproduction. So the video that you mention is NOT a replica, my video is. As far as the ailerons,these were not on his first design, they appear later. People were aware of the concept due to many sources as far back as Wilbur mentioning wing warping in 1902 during his presentation before the WS of E. Chanute also had this information, although he didn't fully understand its implications. The Demoiselle was an aviation deadend.
Can anybody tell me where can I find a 1903 Wrights' Replica really flying like Dumont's 14 Bis(1906) & Demoiselle(1907) Replicas flew. Code iAARzqCgBtw
@Verdelufe -You can't, because the video you mention those are modernized similarities, but not true EXACT replicas. This video is an EXACT replica, down to the finest detail. It flies as close to the original as can be possible, it served their purpose and gives us a glimpse into the evolution from conception into final design of a practical flying machine.
Can anybody tell where can I find a 1903 Wrights' Replica ( Test Flight is what this video is about and that is what I am refering to) preferably at YT.
@Verdelufe -As far as seeing one in person? When you mean looked, is that by internet search? actual travel? Could you be more specific, I don't quite get the nature of your question.
@Verdelufe -You've found them , just watch my two videos. These are actual REPLICAS based on the definition of what a replica is, not what you believe the definition to be. NOT ONE of ALL the Dumont videos on ALL of Youtube is there one single replica. They ALL have been modified in frame structure, power plant and control. Here I have clearly shown a true replica of the a Wright Flyer, which would evolve into the first practical flying machine.
@Verdelufe there are also videos of RELICAS of the 1905 Flyer III, which proceeded Dumont by a year and flew over 24 miles at altitudes of over 100 ft. I suggest that you watch those REPLICAS, not FELICAS (FAKE REPLICAS) as you seemed to think your Dumont videos are.
you know what.SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT WHO DID IT FIRST!!!THE WRIGHT BROTHERS MADE THE FIRST CONTROLED SUSTAINED POWERED FLIGHT!THE 14 BIS DID NOT HAVE PRACTICAL CONTROL AND WAS MORE LIKE A BOX KITE!!!IT WAS ABOUT CONTROL!!!!!!!DUH!!!
@MrMoorkey ...and these people who bang on about ailerons and such...the Wright's wing warping technology is being revived, full circle, with technology like the X53 Active Aeroelastic Wing, proving that not only were they the first, but a hundred years ahead of their time...
@TheRockship The Wright brothers flew many flights from 1903 all to way up to Dumont's hop in 1906, some the flights went over 20 miles. In 1906 Dumont hopped a little bit to give you some perspective. It's amazing to me how poorly educated people are about such an important land mark for mankind. The next thing you know, people from Europe will convince themselves they went to the moon too. lol
@brentsrx7 Are you back again keep dodging question and jump to video that suits you, like the ones that favors Wrights.The Replicas of 1903 never flew, NADA. Take a look again at Dumont's Replicas code iAARzqCgBtw. I know you do not like that. Another thing you will not like is to found out that the Core of engineers who put the man on the moon was the 55 rockets engineers of Hitler, Von Brown and his team. You talked too much of the brainwashed the american media put in your brain.WISE UP.
@Verdelufe -You are the one who has been brainwashed my friend. The replicas did fly , can you not see with your own eyes-clearly this video proves the capability of the machine-what part of their history don't you get? It is not the fault of the machine that it can't fly further-clearly as piloting skill develops distance will improve, however this was a proof of concept and it worked.
@guigs219 -Not to be insulting, but you should have read some of the previous comments. As Bearflight stated in an earlier post, this was a "proof of concept." We all tend to simplify history , but the real flight of December 17th worth noting would have to be the last flight of the day, that's the flight the brothers mention in a telegram to their family. Many don't even know of the attempt on the 14th and in this case they were gravity assisted-again their main objective "proof of concept."
@junglemanlawyer1-Don't see flying-then how does it get off the ground under its own power? How does it move down the rails? Does it not require the tilting of a control surface to initiate the raising of the machine. Is their pilot input - warping of the wing tips to correct for side wind gusts? Does it land without damage? The very same control system that we use today in a modern aircraft-with the except of the skids, which were required due to proximity.
@warp13 i can get off of the ground by jumping, is that flight? i can jump and land back on the ground without being damaged, is that flight? while technically that was a flight, it was a fucking pathetic one. the original wright brothers made a far better flight an entire century ago, 100 years later and this is all you got?
@ishouldplayzelda -First, please refrain from profanity there is no need of it. Jumping involves over coming one force, gravity; flying requires the balancing of gravity to lift and thrust to drag, there is a difference. When you jump, you do have much control during your travel, flying requires control. This flight would have been similar in duration to Orv's first, though not as chaotic. It was the 4th flight of the 17th that proved their concept.
@ishouldplayzelda -Another thing to remember is experience.The Wright's had more stick time in similar type machines. The difficulty in flying the Flyer is something that we can only imagine-it was designed to be unstable, which is contrary to most aircraft design today. It had a very narrow envelope. The flight in the video above proved the concept, it proves that the machine was capable of doing what it was designed to do. I am in no way discrediting the flights of 1903 by Wil and Orv.
@junglemanlawyer1 Dumont's 14bis "never" flew, as it was incapable of 'true' flight as we know it today. The1906 video you've seen only confirms this. Dumont's 14bis (designed by Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Peltrie for Dumont), on 13Nov1906, did manage 3 forced power hops (50m,82m, & 220m), but that only showed a machine getting off the ground in the same fashion as a box kite does while tethered in a stiff wind. The 14bis had no propeller, no airfoils, and no 3-axis control system.
Correct, but the 14 bis we see flying is no replica. It is just made to look like Santos Dumont's 14bis, but with better engine, better propeller better airfoils and better control circuit. It looks quite a lot like the real thing, but is very much better.
when you think of the wright brothers first flight you have to take into consideration they didnt know how to fly it that well. i dont mean control wise.
warp13 is correct. This is a joke of a test flight. The Wright brothers also patented their 3 axis control system which is in use in all airplanes to this date.
@jrusso7660-I wouldn't exactly call this a "joke' for a test flight. I actually consider it a very successful test flight and a very dangerous one at that. This machine was extremely unstable and to be able to land with minimal damage is only due to the TREMENDOUS skill of the pilot. If you could imagine being back over 107 years ago, add gusts of close to 30 mph, windchill below freezing temps, now climb aboard that fragile machine. Stop the movie at 0:38, it is flying!
What were you doing attempting a flight in 30mph winds, in a bird as fragile as the Wright Flyer? I wouldn't even guess at rating that for over a 5 knot crosswind.
Consider this, the true Wright flyer was able to achieve altitudes of nearly 1000 feet. We have ample data and over 100 years of research at our fingertips as regards weight, balance, control, trim characteristics, etc... YOU CAN DO BETTER.
@jrusso7660- I am not too sure that I follow. The original flight was done in these weather conditions, wind gusts between 24-26 mph , temp 33 at 8 AM, high was around 37 . Aircrafting rating, we are talking about 1903, there were no ratings, that is just my point-imagine that danger involved, they did fly in these conditions, and were fortunate for them, anymore wind and drift would have exceeded thrust, any less and and weight would have exceeded lift. It was a very narrow envelope.
Then you misunderstood my post from the start. I was saying that the flight in this video was a joke. They got only a few feet off the ground for less than a second. The 1903 flight was amazing considering the times and the fact that it was the first heavier than air aircraft to fly.
@jrusso7660-I kind of see what you mean, but what I was saying is that , the first flight, probably looked similar to what you see above, perhaps more initial altitude and oscillations, but the distance was about the same. What should be noted was the fact that in was a HTA machine lifting under it's own power and under full control. The fourth flight was the one that the Wrights were very excited about-over 800 ft in just under one minute.
@jrusso7660 In 1903, the only engineers in the world to have consistant and accurate data were the Wright brothers. The Wright Flyer 1 was built only for the purpose of that single day of test flights, as "proof of concept" as it was never intended as a flyable machine. The Wrights at that point, believed it would still be 3 to 4 years before they would have a "practical" flying machine, but they did it by the summer of 1905, roughly 20 months after their first powered tests in 1903.
@jrusso7660 The 1903 Flyer I was never intended to do any more than provide the Wright's with "proof of concept". Your referrence to the Flyer reaching altitudes of 1,000 feet refers to the first production version of the Flyer III with the "A" modifications. That specific machine (serial no. 1) was built by the Wrights in the spring of 1907 and was based on the Wrights 1905 Flyer III. The original 1905 Flyer III test mule is available for inspection at Dayton, Ohio and is a work of art.
@g3speed14-They did, actually Wilbur did. This would have been about the distance of the first flight, 120 ft. The longest was 859 ft, in 59 sec. at an alt of approx 15 ft, try to imagine that. But whether, 100 or 1000ft, what really matter was the concept, it worked and the brothers knew that their ideals were intact. It is their approach to solving the challenge of flight tat makes them who they are.
@Ricksonk-pelo menos que os irmãos Wright não estavam cheios do circo e as mentiras que ele tentou fingir ser o primeiro a voar! Que a verdade seja dita, aceitar e ver o que foi o primeiro a voar!
@warp13 o que eles inventaram não foi um avião, foi um planador. Santos dumont sim conseguia voar sem a ajuda de uma catapulta, ja que com catapulta até vacas conseguem voar...
@Ricksonk -Você realmente não entendo o que eles inventaram, como muitos adeptos Dumont, não há nenhuma catapulta no vídeo está lá, a menos que seja invisível? Vamos discutir muito quando você realmente conhece os factos, caso contrário, eu estou perdendo meu tempo.
Dumont, like all other experimenters of that time in Europe (France to be specific) had no understanding of what was required in their concept or designs for a successful airplane. Wilbur Wright came over to France in 1908 and taught the Europeans how to fly. The first flight of an airplane in Europe, as we know it today, occurred on Aug8, 1908. The first flight in the world occurred 4 1/2 years earlier on Dec17,1903 at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina in the USA.
@neto26pa-Because they didn't know any better in 1906, especially in Europe (and I don't mean this in a bad way). If you had a side by side comparison of the 14-bis to the FIII, you would understand that the basis of all future aircraft was born in the FIII. Once the Wrights flew in 1908-then look have fast aviation evolved-the Wrights filled in the missing pieces. There were more than one "snap" taken on Dec 17, check Smithsonian website. There is a "snap" of the FI alt 15ft. 600 ft from rail.
neto26pa-It doesn't matter if I believe the Wrights 1st flew on 17/12/1903 or on 8/8/1908, either one is still the first flight of the airplane as we know it. Several people had gotten off the ground for a short distance, with the first being Felix du Temple of France in 1874. The first non-Wright aircraft to fly was H. Farman in Oct of 1908 (after he licensed his Viosin-Farman I to use the Wrights patents). Dumont's first time in the air with an aircraft wasn't until April of 1909.
Santos Dumont manda lembranças
123bardox 1 month ago
Ken Kellet built a 1903 Wright Flyer for the 75th anniversary at Kitty Hawk (1978). He then flew it for a John Denver Special (Flight) a couple years later. For some reason Kellet's flights in his 1903 Wright Flyer have not been recognized as they should.
MGB1977Red 2 months ago
It was 108 years ago today! Their legacy lives on.
warp13 2 months ago
Was the tail in the front?
a330ftw 2 months ago
@a330ftw Too simplify, yes. It was a horizontal rudder, today we call it a canard. Think in terms of maximum efficiency. Having a horizontal rudder meant that there was less of a power required.
warp13 2 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 15: Where was Santos Dumont during all this, he was no where to be found and it was 6 months before he finally had his first true success at flight, but then it was with a machine that was for all purposes a simple toy and of no practical value. A few months after that, he announced his retirement from all aviation activities and that didn't even make the Paris newspapers. So you see Verdelufe, that's why I WON"T give up teaching you the real history of the airplane!
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 14: There were only about 200-250 people there that first day, within a week, the crowds seen at LeMans were numbering in the thousands, two weeks later, Wilbur had to move their operations over to d'Auvours, 4km east, which was much bigger. Soon, Royalty from all over Europe arrived to view the "King of the Skies" which the Paris newspapers dubbed Wilbur Wright as. While in Paris 2 weeks later, Wilbur was subjected to a 5min standing ovation from the French Senate.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 13: After Wilbur made those 3 high-banked 180° soaring turns, passing high over the heads of those out there that day, he gently landed on the auto race track directly in front of the gathered crowd, and then shut his engine down. For a moment there was stunned silence, then everyone burst into wild cheering, with some newspaper reporters seen with tears streaming down their cheeks. Young boys rode their bikes to town yelling "Il vole, Il vole!" (he flies, he flies!)
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 12: At 5:50pm on 8Aug1908, Wilbur Wright took off from a field called "Hunaudieres", just outside of LeMans, France with a machine called the Wright Flyer III "A" and the world would never be the same after. Witness were Delagrange, Bleriot, Archdeacon, G.Voisin, FAI officials, Paris newspaper reporters and a couple of hundred locals. Wilbur took-off, climbed to about 20m height, then stunned the crowd when he banked 45° and soared through a 180°, not once, but 3 times.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 11: On 8Aug1908, EVERYTHING changed. Wilbur Wright, who had been down at LeMans since the previous May, announced he was going begin a series of flight trials with the 1st production version WFlyer. All of France had been airplane crazy, but they hadn't been treated to much, yes several ACdeF members (Delagrange, Farman, Pelterie, Bleriot, and de Pischoff) had flown 10+ km in a straight line, but most others just couldn't get off the ground. Dumont? Unseen since last year!
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt10: 1908 was a real banner year for French aviation and for the future of aviation worldwide. Dumont had all but retired from aviation activities, except he was occasionally seen flying his No16 airship, but the Paris newspapers had gone airplane crazy, Delagrange and Farman were almost daily setting FAI records for distance, which was being measured in kilometers not meters and they weren't alone, thre were dozens more trying. Farman had even flown a circle, 1st in Europe.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 9: After Dumont's short 145m hop on 21Nov1907 with his modified Bleriot TypeIII mono-wing (M18), which Dumont would in 1909 call his "Demosielle", he denounced HTAs and went back to his No.16 airship, claiming that only LTAs showed any promise for the future. Even that comment was ignored by the press, as Henri Farman was making headlines for his attempts at winning the Grand Prix de Aviation (flying a circle). Dumont didn't touch HTAs again until Jan1909.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 8: During 1907, none of the Paris newspapers had anything concerning Dumont, except for the rift that had formed between him and majority of the ACdeF membership and of course, his many failures throughout the year. All of the Paris newspapers had headlined all year, the many successes of the other members, nothing about Dumont. By the end of 1907, Dumont's total time in the air (HTAs) was 59sec, 20sec less than Orville had done in a single flight with a glider in 1903.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 7: On 17Nov1907, Dumont made several attempts with his modified M15 biplane (M17), but all he could do was one hop of 203m (witnesses said he touch twice, but because he immediately got back up, the FAI gave it to him). Others (Delagrange-Farman-Bleriot-Viua-de Pischoff) had all gone further, some over 600 or 700m earlier, so Dumont modified Bleriot's TypeIII mono-wing (M18) & on 21Nov had 1 hop of 145m. Dumont announced that HTAs were useless and he went back to LTAs.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 6: On 11July1907, Bleriot flew his TypeIII mono-plane for a distance of 150m, then a few more times that year, and finally for 186m in September, then he gave it to his friend, Dumont. Dumont was very distressed, according to Bleriot, as it seemed everyone in France was flying except him, several ACdeF members had flown much further than his (Dumont's) 220m hop the previous Nov. So Dumont rebuilt his M15 biplane (now his M17) and Bleriot's little mono-wing and tried again.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 5: In April1907, Dumont brought the 14bis back out (he had paid for it so it was his), but after two days of trying he could do no more than bounce across a field. Dumont then went back to his No.16 airship and pretty much stayed with that for the rest of the year. Meanwhile, Delagrange, Bleriot, Farman, Voisin, Pelterie, Viua, dis Pischoff, and others were having a banner year power hopping their machines, Delagrange&Farman filling the headlines almost daily.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 4: Archdeacon stepped in an convinced Delagrange "not" to revoke Dumont's membership, so the ACdeF members became a bit divided among those who supported Dumont (Bleriot was about the only one, but only because he and Voisin greatly disliked each other) and those who didn't (which was just about everyone else at the ACdeF). In Feb1907, Dumont rolled the first machine "he" had designed (M15), but it was so poorly designed and built, it just fell apart during a taxi.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" Prt 3: A few weeks after Dumont had that one power hop of a few meters, he broke an unwritten rule at the ACdeF, when he lied to a Paris newspaper reporter. Dumont publicly stated "he" had designed the 14bis, when in fact it was a Voisin/Pelterie design. A couple of days later, Voisin/Pelterie were interviewed by the same reporter and they lambasted Dumont for lying & told him from then on he was on his own. Delagrange moved to have Dumont's membership revoked at the ACdeF.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" continued. After several months of attempts, Dumont managed a couple of short forced power hops, one in Oct of just a few meters and a second on 13Nov1906, but it wasn't much of a flight (220m in 21.5s), but it was enough so Archdeacon could splash the newspapers with it. Dumont's short hop was the first "observed" by the newly formed FAI, so at Archdeacon's prompting, the FAI initially miscalled it "First Flight", despite it was 80m shorter than Ader's from 9 years prior.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe "Facts" continued. Dumont told Archdeacon he knew NOTHING about HTA flight, so Archdeacon arranged for G.Voisin and R.E. Pelterie to design and build a machine for him. Using the Hargrave kites they had and the blueprints of the Wright's 1902 glider from the ACdeF magazine L'Aerophile, Voisin/Pelterie built a machine for Dumont he called the 14bis and it was classified by the ACdeF as a "Type du Wright". The 14bis was terribly ill-designed, lacking airfoils and a control system.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe What are "actual" facts concerning Dumont? He was greatly successful with LTAs (dirigibles) between about 1899 and 1902.
In 1905, Dumont attempted to fly (get off the ground) with a helicopter he had designed, but it dramatically dissembled itself the first time he tried to run it.
In 1906, Archdeacon urged Dumont to attempt HTA flight after the ACdeF confirmed the Wright's flew over 30km the previous year. Dumont didn't believe HTA flight was possible, but he went ahead anyway.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe Once the book "From The Ground Up" is released, I think you'll have a better understanding of really happened back then. Especially during those years between 1906 and 1910 in France. Based on the actual facts, from the actual individuals and groups involved at the time, I'm at a loss as to why the name Santos Dumont is even mentioned in realation to the development of the powered HTA machine.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe You stated "...What is the big deal for Dumont being the OFFICIAL FIRST TO FLY. You have to accept like most countries do."
The problem is Verdelufe, its simply not true, Dumont wasn't first, either "officially" or "unofficially". If it was just a matter of semantics, then I wouldn't even discuss it, but the reality of what happened at the turn of the century and who was truly involved with the development of the airplane is too big a deal not to get it right.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 Trivia 4: Despite the extraordinarily high sales of the Wright's Flyer A (62 in Germany, 17 in France, and 7 in England) and then their Flyer B (22 in Europe and 111 in North America), nearly 70% of the Wright Aeroplane Company profit was from licensing their technology! The Wright's business journal showed that by December31,1910, the Wright's company had a gross profit of $220,000, of which $154,000 was from fee collections. Mostly collecting from those flying in exhibition.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 Trivia 3: After Chanute cabled Capt Ferber at the ACdeF in late Oct1905, informing him of the Wright's Oct flights at Huffman-Prairie (Orville had flown 33km and Wilbur 39km the first week of October), it was an American businessman living in Paris, L.S. Lahm, that was also a member of the ACdeF who cabled HS Weaver and asked him to go over to Dayton an confirm the flights, which he did! 4 years later, Orville's first military passenger at Ft Myer was Lt Lahm, L.S. Lahm's son.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp 13 Trivia 1: Did you know that Henri Farman and his brother (Maurice) were Paris based bicycle manufacturers, before they became aircraft experimenters?
Trivia 2: Henri Farman became pretty good friends with Wilbur in 1908 and was the first "individual" to receive a users license from the Wrights. In January of 1909, Henri designed a trailing edge control surface for lateral control of his Voisin-Farman II biplane (ailerons as we know them today).
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 In March1910, when Dumont announced his retirement from all aviation activities, his total logged flight time in HTAs was 38m 22s. There already were more than 50 aviators (Europe and in the USA) that had accumulated more time in the air than that. Several aviators had even exceeded that time in a single flight. Both Wilbur & Orville Wright had each exceeded Dumont's lifetime total flight hours by the end of 1904.
Question: When Wilbur took his last airplane ride, who was the pilot?
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 If you have a chance, check out what Orville did at Kitty Hawk (Sept1911) with their 1911 glider? He set an endurance (single flight) record of 9m 38s, a soaring record that stood until 1921. Not bad considering he started from a sand dune that was only 30m high. Did you also know that Orville's total accumulated flight time in their gliders (1902-1903 and 1911) was more than Santos Dumont's total flight time in powered HTAs? Pretty interesting I thought.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe Prt 4: Dumont did enter the M20 version of his Demoiselle (the machine that Bleriot had given him back in 1907, which only worked after Bleriot & Wilbur fixed for him in Jan1909) in to the August1909 air race at Rheims, France. Unfortunately, Dumont had so little experience flying a working HTA, he failed to qualify, but 36 other aviators did. Dumont's Demoiselle was too slow and too ill-handling to of been of any use. After crashing his M22 in Mar1910, Dumont retired from aviation.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe Prt 3 Because Dumont had been so successful with his LTAs in 1899-1902, he gained a deserved level of supporters in Paris and beyond. The reality of Santos Dumont and any evidence of his success in an HTA simply does NOT exist my friend. Bleriot gave Dumont his typeIII mono-wing, which Bleriot had been fairly successful with several months earlier, but Dumont wasn't able to have it work. In 1909, after Bleriot&Wilbur fixed it for him, Dumont finally flew for the 1st time on 13Feb1909.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe Prt 2: Dumont's first attempt, with a machine of his own design, was in Feb1907 and his M15 biplane, but it was so poorly designed and constructed, it simply fell apart when attempted to taxi. His April 07 attempts with the 14bis failed after two days of trying at Issy, then in Nov07, he tried a rebuilt version of his M15 biplane (M17), but again he failed. Bleriot gave Dumont his TypeIII mono-wing but again he failed, so he went back to his No.16 airship and didn't try again until 09
BearFlight 3 months ago
@Verdelufe The book "From The Ground Up" reveals, not only the private letters about Dumont from his friends, the official record of his flights in 1906/1907, but also the many newspaper reports on him during and after his 1906 "non-record" flight attempts. The Paris newspapers were not too kind to Dumont after he was caught lying to a Le Matin newspaper reporter, in Jan1907, then after his continous string of failed flight attempts in 1907 Dumont retired from all HTA flight attempts until 1909.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 13: In part 9, I mentioned the 35 acheivement awards, but the Wrights also received 15 honorary doctrates, including engineering doctrates from the University of Munich (Germany), the University of Paris, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Yale and Harvard Universities (over in America), the University of London, and Wilbur Wright personally received the French Academy of Science Honorary Doctrate for his Engineering Acheivement of World Merit.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 Part C:
flight was finally attained, it will be seen that this success was not won by spending more time than others had spent, nor by taking greater risks than others had taken. Those who failed for lack of time had already used more time than was necessary; those who failed for lack of money had already spent more money than was necessary; and those who were cut off by accident had previously enjoyed as many lucky escapes as reasonably could be expected….”! "Wilbur Wright"
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 Part B: "it was not only necessary to make progress, but it was necessary to make progress at a sufficient rate to reach the goal before money gave out, or before accident intervened, or before the portion of life allowable for such work was past. The problem was so vast and many-sided that no one could hope to win unless he possessed unusual ability to grasp the essential points, and to ignore the nonessentials. When the detailed story is written of the means by which success in human
BearFlight 3 months ago
@warp13 Part A: A few days before Wilbur Wright got sick in 1912, he wrote an article for the Aero Cub of America, which they published a few months after his death. The following is an excerpt from that article:
“……..One of the greatest difficulties of the problem has been little understood by the world at large. This was the fact that those who aspired to solve the problem were constantly pursued by expense, danger, and time. In order to succeed
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza @warp13 Part 12: This book called "From The Ground Up" was authored by an American, but includes material sourced from 4 continents, dozens of historians and aeronautical/aerospace engineers and was researched from National Archives, private and public databases, personal letters, official and unofficial documents, world wide musuem archives, personal journals, written memiors, etc. etc. etc.. I think the most amazing thing in this book are the period photographs! Its astounding.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 11: Every successful aircraft ever flown to this day, owes its ability to fly through the sky under the control of its pilots to Wilbur and Orville Wright, period. Very soon a new book (it hasn't been officially released yet) called "From The Ground Up" will clear up all questions anyone will have about the early pioneers of aviation. I was sent a copy of it a couple of months ago and its fantastic. This book is the accumulation of material collected from 10 years of research.
BearFlight 3 months ago
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@MrAlepedroza Part 10: In addition to the awards of acheivement the Wrights received, they were also presented with 15 honorary doctrates between them, including engineering doctrates from the University of Munich (Germany), the University of Paris, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Yale and Harvard Universities (over in America), the University of London, Wilbur Wright personally received the French Academy of Science Honorary Doctrate for his engineering acheivement of world merit.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 9: Are you aware of the awards Wilbur and Orville received? By the end of 1909, the Wrights had received over 35 awards, not for flying, but for their technological achievement. Of the awards, was included The Aero Club de France Gold Medal of achievement, the French Legion of Honour, the US Congressional Medal of Honor, the French Academy of Sciences Gold Medal, the British Science of Honor gold medal, etc. etc. Wilbur was even nominated for a Nobel in science/engineering!
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 8: The Wrights, particularly Wilbur, didn't like flying as they were engineers not aviators. This is why they each generally refused to fly in exhibition or for flight awards. After Wilbur began his demonstrations of their technology, applied to their Flyer III platform, on 8Aug1908, he turned down several offers. As soon as the Wrights got the first batch of people trained at their flight center in Pau, Wilbur retired from flying himself and went back to engineering work.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 7: When Dumont had those two short hops in late 1906 (24Oct and 13Nov), they were neither the first flights nor were they record flights of any kind. That is NOT according to me, that is according to the Federation Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) and the Aero Club de France official records. What they were, was "only" the first powered flights "observed" by the then newly formed FAI group, nothing more. The FAI "officially" lists Clement Ader the first to fly on 14Oct, 1897.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 6: On 8Aug1908, Wilbur Wright stunned, not only the French, but the entire world at what they had developed, as engineers, over the previous 7 or 8 years. Most today are confused about the Wright's Flyer III "A", as that was merely the platform they used to demonstrate their technology of airfoil design, their high efficiency propellers, their patented 3-axis control system, and most importantly, their overall concept of "Inherent Instability". The Wrights changed everything.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 5: Throughout 1907 and the first half of 1908, it was the French aviators that seemed to be progressing with powered HTA machines, with Farman, Delagrange, Bleriot, Pelterie, and Vivan leading the way. Bleriot had given his typeIII mono-wing machine to Dumont, but after Dumont failed to fly past 145m in Nov (1907), Dumont couldn't handle the newspaper reports on him, he gave up and so he went back to his last airship (no. 16) and stuck with LTA flight until 1909.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 4: In April1907, Wilbur arrived in Paris to try an finalize a deal with the German, French, English, Austrian, Italian, and Belgium governments on a flying machine, (Orville brought their first production Flyer III to France in July), but they just couldn't get anything done. Had that been done, it was the Wright's intent to give their technology away to everyone free of any patent restraints, but Ferber and Archdeacon fought them at every corner.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 3: After Dumont's 2 short forced hops in 1906, he lied to a reporter at the Le Matin (Paris newspaper), so Voisin/Pelterie told Dumont he was on his own, after Delagrange was unable to revoke Dumont's ACdeF membership, Dumont designed his first machine (M15), but was so poorly designed and built, it simply fell apart when Dumont tried to taxi (Feb1907), he failed in April with the 14bis, and then later (Nov) with his M17 biplane and M18 mono-wing, so Dumont gave up until 1909.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 2: Dumont had become world famous for his dirigibles, so Ferber & Archdeacon (at the ACdeF) needed someone to best what they had confirmed about the Wrights in Dec1905. Because the Wrights were engineers working on developing a "practical" airplane and avoided reporter interference, Archdeacon knew they only needed to get off the ground for a short distance publicly. Dumont didn't believe HTAs were possible, but Archdeacon convinced him to try with Voisin/Pelterie's help.
BearFlight 3 months ago
A briga provocada pelos irmãos Wright a respeito de repelente, mesquinha, repulsiva e nojenta disputa por dinheiro atrasou a aviação americana durante vinte anos. Durante a I Guerra Mundial tiveram que utilizar aviões franceses, como o Nieuport 17, SPAD VII, o SPAD XIII. Os conhecimentos dos norte-americanos eram tão primários que os franceses empurraram uma porcaria de avião chamado Nieuport 28, produzido em grandes quantidades, e que nenhum piloto francês queria.
CaxiasFreguesia 4 months ago
Em dezembro de 2003 uma replica tentou alçar vôo e não conseguiu, vergonhosamente. TODAS as réplicas do 14 Bis voam, mesmo as mais elementares, construídas em fundo de quintal. Enquanto os americanos estavam com seu biplano, tanto Blériot, Voisin, Duperdussin e outros já estavam com monoplanos. Dumont construiu um formidável avião, o Demoiselle, NUNCA COBROU NADA POR ISSO, nunca foi mercenário, egoísta, mesquinho, pequeno de caráter.
CaxiasFreguesia 4 months ago
@CaxiasFreguesia: Voce fala e fala, mais seus unicos argumentos sao cantaletas anti-yankis. Os Wright foiram egoistas e mezquinhos....blablabla. Bearflight claramente mostrou para voce que Dumont nao foi o disenhador do 14-Bis, que mintio a respeito disso, que seus primeros autenticos disenhos (os modelos 15 e 17) nunca conseguiram voar, que o 14 bis so pode ''voar'' em linea recta (porque isso nao e realmente voar) debido a seu inexistente sistema de control...e para que voce saiba,....
MrAlepedroza 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza O teu problema parece outro, estas sendo discriminado por brasileiros na Foz do Iguacu?
a competicao aprovou como o primeiro voo official na historia mesmo sem curva, 14 Bis tinha ailerons porem era fragil para fazer curva. Agora me mostra onde varios voos da replica de 1903 dos WB foram feitos com sucesso nos dias que antecederam. Nova com tecnologia de ponta crashed WB replica. Tu escutas o Galo cantar e ai começa a inventar. What is your problem ? Vai ler mais sobre aviacao.
Verdelufe 3 months ago
@CaxiasFreguesia: .....aquele voo do 2003 em que o Flyer nao consegueu voar so foi porque o clima foi muito mau. Mais esse so nao foi o primer voo da issa replica. Vários voos de prova foram feitos con sucesso nos dias que antecederam....
MrAlepedroza 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza pois é ... quanto pior o tempo, melhor a geringonça voava ? os irmãos alegam que os origniais do primeiro "avião" foram "... destruídos em um acidente ...". Claro ! Todas as experiências de Blériot, Voisin, Dumont etc eram feitas EM PÚBLICO, ÀS CLARAS. Os Wright enviaram representantes à França que mandavam periodicamente informações sobre as experiências que eram às claras. Depois de 1903, MUITO DEPOIS, alegaram que "...voaram em 1903 ...". Uma farsa ...
CaxiasFreguesia 3 months ago
@CaxiasFreguesia: I'll continue this debate in english. I'm not even paraguayan, I'm Colombian, and I live in Asuncion, not Foz do Iguacu. And no, I dont have anything against brazilians, I have brazilians friends and met many good Brazilian people.I also dont believe that the Wright bros were the truly fathers of aviation, since there's evidence showing that Richard Pearce and John Whitehead flew before 1903. I also believe Leonardo Da Vinci and Bernoully being the truly fathers of aviation.
MrAlepedroza 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza You're confusing the difference between who got of the ground first and who actually flew first. When the Wrights first flew in December 1903, we now know that there were probably 8, possibly 9 who had gotten airborne before. Richard Pearse did get off the ground as early as 1902, but he didn't tell anyone about it until 1935. Wieskopf never really did more than bounce, his only witness recanted later, claiming he had been paid $100 by a reporter for a "good" story.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza The first known flight of a man-carrying powered HTA was probably Felix du Temple (FR) in 1874, but officially (FAI records) it was Clement Ader (FR) on 14Oct1897 for 300m. Regardless though, they are all interesting, but they were also all irrelevant and as Wilbur Wright explained immediately after he stunned the French on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, when he told everyone that all of their (the Wright's) flights before that date were irrelevant as well.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@MrAlepedroza Part 1: Brazilians have been taught a falsehood concerning Santos Dumont, as he had only made a short uncontrolled pair of flights in late 1906, they were unsustained and uncontrolled. Dumont flew a machine called the 14bis that had been designed and built for him by Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie, but after Dumont lied to a Paris reporter during an interview in Jan1907, Delagrange was going to have Dumont's membership in the ACdeF revoked, but Archdeacon intervened.
BearFlight 3 months ago
@CaxiasFreguesia: I will continue debating tomorrow, I have some work issues....
MrAlepedroza 3 months ago
Robert Thelan, ALEMÃO, projetista dos famosos caças Albatross afirmou que uma máquina pesando mais de 350 kg jamais levantaria vôo em TODAS as condições com um motor de apenas ... 12 HP.
CaxiasFreguesia 4 months ago
Mas isso aí é VERGONHOSO. Santos Dumont e outros pioneiros, como Otto Lilienthal, Blériot, Saulnier fizeram suas experiências às claras. Os Irmãos Wright patentearam em 1903 um planador. Escondidos na desculpa da patente, jamais permitiram que alguém conferisse sua máquina, "queriam vender antes" rs, rs, rs. Os descendentes de Orville quando consultados se autorizavam a exposição do engenho no Smithsonian concordaram com uma condição: QUE FOSSE ATRIBUÍDA AOS IRMÃOS a "invenção" do avião.
CaxiasFreguesia 4 months ago
Part 5: On 13Nov, 1906 (I know a lot of you keep stating that Dumont's 220m power hop was on the 12th, but the FAI states it was the 13th, a Tuesday, so because they were there and I wasn't, I'll go with the FAI records). The Voisin-Pelterie 14bis Dumont flew that day lacked lift producing airfoils (wings) an a control system. The 14bis was a cross design copied from a Hargrave box kite and the Wright brother's 1902 glider. The ACdeF official magazine L'Aerophile detailed this in Dec,1906.
BearFlight 4 months ago
Part 4: In the period between Aug1908 (after Wilbur Wright had demonstrated the world's first successful aircraft at LeMans) and Dec1910, we have documents (photos) showing 204 different HTA designs, of every conceivable description, from France, Italy, Germany, England, and the United States. The world's aviators soon realized that if you wanted to fly, you had better understand and incorporate the Wright's technology for airfoil design and for a viable control system, otherwise give it up.
BearFlight 4 months ago
Part 3: Of all the active aviators with the Aero Club de France, Santos Dumont was the least successful with HTAs. In 1907 and 1908, it was all Delagrange, Farman, Pelterie, Viain, and Bleriot. Dumont was only mentioned during that period for his failures and because of how popular and famous he was for his dirigibles during the period 1898 and 1903. In Feb1909, after Bleriot designed his wings and installed the Wright's control system, Dumont finally flew for the first time.
BearFlight 4 months ago
Part 2: Dumont with his first self-designed machine, his model 15 biplane, tried to get airborne in Feb1907, but his machine was so poorly designed and constructed, it simply fell apart when he attempted to taxi. He tried again in April with the 14bis, but he could do nothing but bounce across the field at Issy. In Nov1907 he again tried with his M17 biplane, but it didn't work. Then with a Bleriot monowing (M18) he hopped for 145m. Dumont then gave up and went back to his dirigibles until 1909.
BearFlight 4 months ago
Part 1: After Dumont had his longest power hop with the Voisin-Pelterie designed machine he (Dumont) called the 14bis, Dumont then lied about who had designed the 14bis to a Paris newspaper reporter in Jan1907, which was rebutted by Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie. Voisin&Pelterie cut all ties with Dumont and Leon Delagrange (President of the ACdeF) seriously considered ejecting Dumont from his ACdeF membership for his lying.
BearFlight 4 months ago
I suggest all of you read the book "From The Ground Up", which has just been published. It is the work of several aviation experts from the UK, USA, and France and details virtually everyone that attempted to fly between 1800 and 1910. This book required over 10 years in research and everything contained in it is fully documented and confirmed for its factual contents. As far as Dumont, he had that one uncontrolled power hop for 220m on 13Nov,1906, that was it.
BearFlight 4 months ago
@Verdelufe @junglemanlawyer1 Flight of an airplane is defined as having the ability for sustained and controlled flight. The Wrights took 6 years (an 7 prototypes) developing the base technology (the science and engineering) before they could successfully demonstrate a machine that felt comfortable enough with for marketing purposes. When Wilbur began his first demonstration flights at LeMans, on 8Aug1908, that was the first time anyone in Europe had seen an airplane fly as we know it today.
BearFlight 4 months ago
This brings the old times back. :)
Dinosorable 4 months ago
Flight of nearly 100 feet but I would want to know about the altitude above the ground. Did you record this data?
vlatu 4 months ago
Europe, Australia, Japao when talking about Dumont they always have a positive
comment but when comes to America they always denigrade Dumont, the notion that WB invent and were the first has to change they were not the first and did not
have the best plane, everyone contribute till this day to have what we have today. What is the big deal for Dumont being the OFFICIAL FIRST TO FLY. You have to
accept like most countries do.
Verdelufe 5 months ago
@Verdelufe - I don't have anything negative to say about Dumont, I just feel that people like you tend to elevate him higher that he deserves based solely on nationalist pride and not on his contribution to HTA flight. Dumont did NOT believe in HTA flight, he was more concerned with balloons-that is a fact. Ader deserves more praise and yet you never mention him, why? You must not read anything that is written-1899-1908 was a proof of concept. It was not simply a flip of the coin.
warp13 5 months ago
@Verdelufe It was not about the invention, it was about the way they got there, a piece that you obviously choose to ignore. Instability is something that was not as easy to grasp in 1900 as it is today. Image being high above the ground and having to lean into a turn, the feeling of falling into a turn would have scared anyone. Again they were called flying "machines" they were to be stable platforms in the air, not at all as the Wrights designed them. Their concept was unique.
warp13 5 months ago
For those who do not know much about Dumont I suggest to look a video that is an introduction of a documentary called " Santos Dumont Documentary" based
on the book written by Paul Hoffman called " Wings of Madness"
Verdelufe 6 months ago
You all want to see what I am talking about go to Code iAARzqCgBtw
and see the performance of 14 Bis & Demoiselle.
Verdelufe 6 months ago
@Verdelufe -Again you are seeing machines that are much improved-not true replicas as this one is in the video. You completely miss the point of what the Wright Bros were about and the point of their experiments at the OBX from 1900-1903, it was proof of concept. Performance would come once problems were solved, first they has to figure it all out.
warp13 6 months ago
@warp13 Go to Wright Brothers Flying Machine by NOVA, they built the Flyer III not the First Flyer of 1903,
much better construction replica and used an experienced commercial pilot who crashed into the trees.
Again it proves that the WB were an exceptional glider flyers, many people died trying the Flyer. NACA(before NASA) developed aviation aerodynamics in 1915, don't tell me that WB were the brains of aviation with their wing warping, I know enough about aviation to miss the point.
Verdelufe 6 months ago
@Verdelufe-Just to get you facts correct, it was Ken Hyde and a MODEL B, to quote, "We were doing a taxi test trying to learn how to control the plane when it jumped into the air," he explained. "We had not planned on going flying." Regarding the accident you mention. As has been posted they were genius' in their approach to the problem of flight and the question of stability. They knew that control was essential-power would follow.
warp13 6 months ago
@warp13 What significance does it has "Just to get you facts correct " It does not matter who was the experienced pilot and which Flyer Model, if does not look like the first 1903 model WB claimed flew.
Are you complaining of 14 Bis & Demoiselle are not the original replica. Don't change the subject calling
WB genius. Patent Control was their weapon to sue everyone who may create any other imaginable control that might appear in the future. Flyer's Junk. The history of aviation has a wound.
Verdelufe 5 months ago
@Verdelufe -The documentary that you watched was about a DIFFERENT machine. It was not about the Flyer although Ken Hyde did work on a replica of the 1903 machine, this was NOT about that machine. I am just clarifying your confusion. A patent is a patent, has it ever been different? Many people through out history have established businesses, employed persons, invested in product development, what is different here? "Flyers junk" how can you make that claim and say you understand aviation?
warp13 5 months ago
@warp13 I recently was at the Smithionian museum in the Capitol and visit "Early Flight" you barely could see anything about Henri Farman or Santos Dumont, They could not help but show well a replica of Louis Bleriot that look really like a plane. When I say the Flyer was a Junk I mean comparing to Bleriot's design, they have done nothing to the Flyer completely obsolete, it was OK in 1903 as starting glider but it remained the same all the time. Got it ?
Verdelufe 5 months ago
@Verdelufe - I wish you would have told me that you were visiting I would have liked to have met you you there. That would have been fun...I personally favor the Bleriot over ALL early machines, it is my favorite and I have many pictures of the one you saw. They an original XI at Rhinebeck in upstate NY on Saturdays (calm wind) a few feet off the ground past the grand stands-incredible machine. The Flyer was designed with certain considerations in mind, but it was not safe by any means.
warp13 5 months ago
@Verdelufe- Having a canard/pusher config provided certain advantages, but was very dangerous to fly. The Bleriot was dangerous as where all early machines, and a hand full to fly, but its tractor design is more practical and what we see today in modern aircraft. Note the XI had no stab. But, by leaving the back portion of the machine uncovered, I believe this provided a degree of longitudinal stability. Did you get a chance to see Udvar- Hazy Center?
warp13 5 months ago
@warp13 It looks like we are tuning our conversations, I was planning to see the Udvar-Hazy Center is more futuristic, the reason I could not make it there, was because we rented a car get lost too many times, never could find a parking lot, got a lots tickets and we left one day before the earthquake hit.
Verdelufe 5 months ago
@Verdelufe- I have found it to be a hard city to navigate, I suppose it takes time to get use to. we usually stay in Virginia, and commute via subway to DC, the traffic and parking are terrible. I do like to go there, it is a great city with lots of history. I didn't feel the quake, I was in Connecticut at the time and someone asked me about it. Then we had the hurricane, which left us without power for about a day and a half, some people still don't have power. It was not that bad by me.
warp13 5 months ago
@warp13 It really takes time to get used to DC, you were right it would be fun to get together and discuss right in front of all the replicas our differences and agreements. It is for sure a fascinating subject everytime I fly a small plane or a 747 I remember all the first flight pioneers, very defying with a lot of guts. I admire all of them. The only problem I have is Americans believe Wrights was the only one and Brazilians believe Dumont was the only one. I don't know if this ever ends.
Verdelufe 5 months ago
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It does not matter who flew before Nov 12, 1906. The official first flight by a HTA
flying machine was 14 Bis by Dumont PERIOD !!! That was at Bagatelli France a super power at that time. It does not matter how many helped to have a final product like we have today. Don't try to take away the merits that Dumont deserves. With time you all will get used to it. Again Dumont was the man !!!
Verdelufe 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Code V0vZWo5gE1U shows exactly the 14 Bis Replica built with bamboo.
Don't try to distort the facts. You all Wright's fans hate to see it performs after
100 years, you wish it was the Flyer. Don't forget the Demoiselle identical Replica
with great performance after 100 years too. Dumont was the man !!!
Verdelufe 6 months ago
Stop yelling about Santos Dumont being the first to fly a heavier than air machine. He wasn't. He wasn't even the first to fly in Europe. Ever heard about Maxim in 1894? Or Vuia, March 1906?
sablatnic 6 months ago
@sablatnic Clement Ader 1890 Eole.That was well before Dumont.
warp13 6 months ago
@warp13
Yes, him too, thanks!
sablatnic 6 months ago
This makes me think of a story my aerodynamics professor told. The college used to have a paper airplane competition every year for the aero students who would be designing tomorrow's airplanes. Back in the 60's a hippie walked in and said, "Hey, Man... whats goin' on?" They explained. He took a piece of paper, crumpled it into a ball, threw it across the gymnasium, and won.
That was the last year they had the competition.
So when't the 2nd flight? 15 feet & 5 inches off ground next time?
malamagr 6 months ago
@malamagr - Nice joke, I've heard something like that before, but it misses the point because you must first understand the concept of flight and the dynamics of control.
warp13 6 months ago
@ChamberChannel -Glad you are having a laugh, truth hurts doesn't it?
warp13 7 months ago
FAI conceded recently the world record to an Ultra Light called CEA-308 that flies with a total of 300Kg including Plane + Fuel+ Refig. Water + Pilot Weight from a University in Brazil to see Google " bol1288 " Do not forget that Embraer sells Exec. Jets to Canada & USA - Brazil has tradition in building planes Dumont is not a lone figure.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe so does just about every other country in the world, your point?
warp13 8 months ago
@warp13 My point was mentioned below about the WB animated videos depicting Dumont with very dark skin like a bandido. A lot of people in US do not know much about many countries, like a lot think Brazil is full of parrots, indians, samba, carnaval and carnal pleasure also many think the capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires, therefore does not deserve any position in invention or technology like a super power. Brazil is the leader in South America and 6th in the world. COMPRENDE, CAPISCE !!!
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe I think that this is a personal matter. It is not my opinion. Just like I could say that many people think that the two brothers tossed a coin in the air , one jumped on board the Flyer and you had the instant invention of the flying machine, which is a fabrication. The 1903 flights were eventful, but it was really a span from 1899-1908, that we see the development of their ideas and theories. Also there was no catapult in 1903 and it was level ground.
warp13 8 months ago
@warp13 I do not think you understood, personal matter, not your opinion. I am talking about PROPAGANDA Dumont's dark skin from a brazilian jungle changes the opinion of a kid, who grow up thinking deceiving facts, it is not your opinion now because you probably learned from me but 1 year ago, you might had a total different concept about aviation. You have to keep in mind that there was not a single inventor for the plane it was a result of a compilation of many minds, everyone contributed,
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe- I think that you are the one who has a prejudice, "dark skin, jungles"??, You obviously have a very low opinion of the average American's intelligence-I can assure you that I have never thought of Brazil as just "jungles". Believe or not we do have schools in America that teach us about places outside our borders. As far as the invention of the airplane being a collaborative effort, one small detail needs to be addressed,and that is stability vs instability.
warp13 8 months ago
@Verdelufe _our initial conversation was about replicas, we have drifted off the subject. I have posted a replica, You have made claims to non-replicas, ie, modified versions of what look like a 14-Bis, but under close examination, prove to be otherwise. A replica is an EXACT copy-period. Adding a modern engine and prop, and mods to the airframe change the flight characteristics. This is done for show, nothing wrong with it, but don't think that this represents the actual machine.
warp13 8 months ago
@warp13 Back to initial conversation I gave you a Code V0vZWo5gE1U to see how someone built 14 bis
you said it did not have the ailerons and I said it did when Dumont was declared the officially first flight, then you kept quiet, I never dodged it.The ailerons was to make a turn but the14 Bis was made out of bamboo,too fragil. Then came WB pressing charges of copying wing warping. Stop thinking of WB as PHD's felows,stop with words like instability. Everyone held the bull by the horns.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@warp13 It is not personal matter.You keep dodging the animated clips about dark skin,you have not given your opinion on that to close that chapter.Believe me I went to school on both countries nobody better than I to judge how much Americans know about other countries English is not my second language,it is my 4th and very humble.You can not accept the idea that the Wright Brothers is NOT what you learned in school,it is hard,it is like to ask you to change your gender & be in a twilight zone.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe My point was mentioned below about the WB animated videos depicting Dumont with very dark skin like a bandido. A lot of people in US do not know much about many countries, like a lot think Brazil is full of parrots, indians, samba, carnaval and carnal pleasure also many think the capital of Brazil is Buenos Aires, therefore does not deserve any position in invention or technology like a super power. Brazil is the leader in South America and 6th in the world. COMPRENDE, CAPISCE !!!
Verdelufe 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Santos Dumont grandfather was french Francois Dumont, his father Henri Dumont was born in Brazil then moved back to France to study Engineering then returned to Brazil. His mother Francisca Paula Santos ( she was white, for the racists )
Verdelufe 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Wright Brothers Part 1-5 Animated clips: To make Alberto Santos Dumont to look like a sinister Captain Hook with a very dark skin is laughble, how racist and ridiculous way to depict Dumont, He went to the best school in Paris to study Science with devotion not a High School dropped outs like the Wright Brothers. His father had a brazilian coffe plantation, very rich Brazilian and his mother also a Brazilian and they were both white. PROPAGANDA MACHINE does not work anymore after Internet.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
In 1904 the Wright Brothers requested England to registered a patent of a GLIDER
which was given # 6732. Why registered a glider if they flew first in 1903 according to their picture, by the way you should see the picture looking the glider from the front, it is a huge steep dune, a ramp to go down.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
What the hell, as far as the ailerons this was not on his first design "SO WHAT"
he had the ailerons when FAI declared officially the first HTA flight with 220m in Nov. 2006 It has nothing to do with wing warping patent of 2006 which the brothers claimed. In other words europeans aviators were not giving a shit about it, but you know how attorneys get their ways around to screwed 37 aviators, specially Glenn Curtis was ultra pissed off, it was the WOUND that the remains to this day, believe me.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
Another Mr. Dodgy, you said nothing about the videos I asked to see, now you come with Flyer III, were the brothers first or not, You have to talk about Flyer I , 1903.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
Code 3MXvAaxS8ok you can see the man who built the 14 Bis exactly equal, then he taught his daughter how to fly it. Code V0vZWo5gE1U you can see the ailerons(5:15) not copied from Wrights wing warping Patent(nobody knew about it) on Nov 13 ,1906 when he reached 220m. Everything was made by trial and error, no worries about patent or mathematical calculation. All bamboo ASD's EXACT replica, Demoiselle NO COMMENTS. Your buddy BearFlight also denied,dodged
then keep talking about other stuff.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufeby definition, REPLICA, an exact copy or reproduction. So the video that you mention is NOT a replica, my video is. As far as the ailerons,these were not on his first design, they appear later. People were aware of the concept due to many sources as far back as Wilbur mentioning wing warping in 1902 during his presentation before the WS of E. Chanute also had this information, although he didn't fully understand its implications. The Demoiselle was an aviation deadend.
warp13 8 months ago
Can anybody tell me where can I find a 1903 Wrights' Replica really flying like Dumont's 14 Bis(1906) & Demoiselle(1907) Replicas flew. Code iAARzqCgBtw
Verdelufe 9 months ago
@Verdelufe -You can't, because the video you mention those are modernized similarities, but not true EXACT replicas. This video is an EXACT replica, down to the finest detail. It flies as close to the original as can be possible, it served their purpose and gives us a glimpse into the evolution from conception into final design of a practical flying machine.
warp13 8 months ago
Can anybody tell where can I find a 1903 Wrights' Replica ( Test Flight is what this video is about and that is what I am refering to) preferably at YT.
Verdelufe 10 months ago
@Verdelufe -test flight is all you can do in any Wright Flyer. Same is true of any machine produced at that time.
warp13 8 months ago
Can anybody tell me where can I find a 1903 Wrights' Replica.
I have looked all over and got nothing.
Verdelufe 10 months ago
@Verdelufe -As far as seeing one in person? When you mean looked, is that by internet search? actual travel? Could you be more specific, I don't quite get the nature of your question.
warp13 10 months ago
@Verdelufe -You've found them , just watch my two videos. These are actual REPLICAS based on the definition of what a replica is, not what you believe the definition to be. NOT ONE of ALL the Dumont videos on ALL of Youtube is there one single replica. They ALL have been modified in frame structure, power plant and control. Here I have clearly shown a true replica of the a Wright Flyer, which would evolve into the first practical flying machine.
warp13 8 months ago
@Verdelufe there are also videos of RELICAS of the 1905 Flyer III, which proceeded Dumont by a year and flew over 24 miles at altitudes of over 100 ft. I suggest that you watch those REPLICAS, not FELICAS (FAKE REPLICAS) as you seemed to think your Dumont videos are.
warp13 8 months ago
you know what.SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT WHO DID IT FIRST!!!THE WRIGHT BROTHERS MADE THE FIRST CONTROLED SUSTAINED POWERED FLIGHT!THE 14 BIS DID NOT HAVE PRACTICAL CONTROL AND WAS MORE LIKE A BOX KITE!!!IT WAS ABOUT CONTROL!!!!!!!DUH!!!
Steamboater100 10 months ago
@Steamboater100 -Easy there friend or you will be banned.
warp13 10 months ago
Camp of Bagatelle ( France) + 1906 + 14 Bis + Santos Dumont (Brazil) = The real first flight .
TheRockship 11 months ago
@TheRockship define "real".
warp13 11 months ago
@warp13 Real = in their own little world...
MrMoorkey 8 months ago
@MrMoorkey -exactly...their own little "fabricated, distorted, dismissive, world.
warp13 8 months ago
@MrMoorkey ...and these people who bang on about ailerons and such...the Wright's wing warping technology is being revived, full circle, with technology like the X53 Active Aeroelastic Wing, proving that not only were they the first, but a hundred years ahead of their time...
MrMoorkey 8 months ago
@TheRockship The Wright brothers flew many flights from 1903 all to way up to Dumont's hop in 1906, some the flights went over 20 miles. In 1906 Dumont hopped a little bit to give you some perspective. It's amazing to me how poorly educated people are about such an important land mark for mankind. The next thing you know, people from Europe will convince themselves they went to the moon too. lol
brentsrx7 10 months ago
@brentsrx7 Are you back again keep dodging question and jump to video that suits you, like the ones that favors Wrights.The Replicas of 1903 never flew, NADA. Take a look again at Dumont's Replicas code iAARzqCgBtw. I know you do not like that. Another thing you will not like is to found out that the Core of engineers who put the man on the moon was the 55 rockets engineers of Hitler, Von Brown and his team. You talked too much of the brainwashed the american media put in your brain.WISE UP.
Verdelufe 10 months ago
@Verdelufe -You are the one who has been brainwashed my friend. The replicas did fly , can you not see with your own eyes-clearly this video proves the capability of the machine-what part of their history don't you get? It is not the fault of the machine that it can't fly further-clearly as piloting skill develops distance will improve, however this was a proof of concept and it worked.
warp13 8 months ago
@guigs219 -Not to be insulting, but you should have read some of the previous comments. As Bearflight stated in an earlier post, this was a "proof of concept." We all tend to simplify history , but the real flight of December 17th worth noting would have to be the last flight of the day, that's the flight the brothers mention in a telegram to their family. Many don't even know of the attempt on the 14th and in this case they were gravity assisted-again their main objective "proof of concept."
warp13 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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The Flyer was great shit...Feces human.
agente9009 1 year ago
Fly? I did not see any "Flying". In other hand I saw the Santos Dumont's plane 14 Biss actually "Flying" in many other videos!
junglemanlawyer1 1 year ago 3
@junglemanlawyer1-Don't see flying-then how does it get off the ground under its own power? How does it move down the rails? Does it not require the tilting of a control surface to initiate the raising of the machine. Is their pilot input - warping of the wing tips to correct for side wind gusts? Does it land without damage? The very same control system that we use today in a modern aircraft-with the except of the skids, which were required due to proximity.
warp13 1 year ago
@warp13 i can get off of the ground by jumping, is that flight? i can jump and land back on the ground without being damaged, is that flight? while technically that was a flight, it was a fucking pathetic one. the original wright brothers made a far better flight an entire century ago, 100 years later and this is all you got?
ishouldplayzelda 1 year ago
@ishouldplayzelda -First, please refrain from profanity there is no need of it. Jumping involves over coming one force, gravity; flying requires the balancing of gravity to lift and thrust to drag, there is a difference. When you jump, you do have much control during your travel, flying requires control. This flight would have been similar in duration to Orv's first, though not as chaotic. It was the 4th flight of the 17th that proved their concept.
warp13 1 year ago
@ishouldplayzelda -Another thing to remember is experience.The Wright's had more stick time in similar type machines. The difficulty in flying the Flyer is something that we can only imagine-it was designed to be unstable, which is contrary to most aircraft design today. It had a very narrow envelope. The flight in the video above proved the concept, it proves that the machine was capable of doing what it was designed to do. I am in no way discrediting the flights of 1903 by Wil and Orv.
warp13 1 year ago
@junglemanlawyer1 Yep, no "flying" there! Dumont was the man.
rubroxato88 1 year ago
@junglemanlawyer1 Dumont's 14bis "never" flew, as it was incapable of 'true' flight as we know it today. The1906 video you've seen only confirms this. Dumont's 14bis (designed by Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Peltrie for Dumont), on 13Nov1906, did manage 3 forced power hops (50m,82m, & 220m), but that only showed a machine getting off the ground in the same fashion as a box kite does while tethered in a stiff wind. The 14bis had no propeller, no airfoils, and no 3-axis control system.
BearFlight 1 year ago
@junglemanlawyer1
Correct, but the 14 bis we see flying is no replica. It is just made to look like Santos Dumont's 14bis, but with better engine, better propeller better airfoils and better control circuit. It looks quite a lot like the real thing, but is very much better.
sablatnic 6 months ago
when you think of the wright brothers first flight you have to take into consideration they didnt know how to fly it that well. i dont mean control wise.
Kawasaski65 1 year ago
@g3speed14
warp13 is correct. This is a joke of a test flight. The Wright brothers also patented their 3 axis control system which is in use in all airplanes to this date.
:)
Thanks,
Justin
jrusso7660 1 year ago
@jrusso7660-I wouldn't exactly call this a "joke' for a test flight. I actually consider it a very successful test flight and a very dangerous one at that. This machine was extremely unstable and to be able to land with minimal damage is only due to the TREMENDOUS skill of the pilot. If you could imagine being back over 107 years ago, add gusts of close to 30 mph, windchill below freezing temps, now climb aboard that fragile machine. Stop the movie at 0:38, it is flying!
warp13 1 year ago
@warp13
What were you doing attempting a flight in 30mph winds, in a bird as fragile as the Wright Flyer? I wouldn't even guess at rating that for over a 5 knot crosswind.
Consider this, the true Wright flyer was able to achieve altitudes of nearly 1000 feet. We have ample data and over 100 years of research at our fingertips as regards weight, balance, control, trim characteristics, etc... YOU CAN DO BETTER.
Just my opinion.
Justin
jrusso7660 1 year ago
@jrusso7660- I am not too sure that I follow. The original flight was done in these weather conditions, wind gusts between 24-26 mph , temp 33 at 8 AM, high was around 37 . Aircrafting rating, we are talking about 1903, there were no ratings, that is just my point-imagine that danger involved, they did fly in these conditions, and were fortunate for them, anymore wind and drift would have exceeded thrust, any less and and weight would have exceeded lift. It was a very narrow envelope.
warp13 1 year ago
@warp13
Then you misunderstood my post from the start. I was saying that the flight in this video was a joke. They got only a few feet off the ground for less than a second. The 1903 flight was amazing considering the times and the fact that it was the first heavier than air aircraft to fly.
Thanks,
Justin
jrusso7660 1 year ago
@jrusso7660-I kind of see what you mean, but what I was saying is that , the first flight, probably looked similar to what you see above, perhaps more initial altitude and oscillations, but the distance was about the same. What should be noted was the fact that in was a HTA machine lifting under it's own power and under full control. The fourth flight was the one that the Wrights were very excited about-over 800 ft in just under one minute.
warp13 1 year ago
@jrusso7660 In 1903, the only engineers in the world to have consistant and accurate data were the Wright brothers. The Wright Flyer 1 was built only for the purpose of that single day of test flights, as "proof of concept" as it was never intended as a flyable machine. The Wrights at that point, believed it would still be 3 to 4 years before they would have a "practical" flying machine, but they did it by the summer of 1905, roughly 20 months after their first powered tests in 1903.
BearFlight 1 year ago
@jrusso7660 The 1903 Flyer I was never intended to do any more than provide the Wright's with "proof of concept". Your referrence to the Flyer reaching altitudes of 1,000 feet refers to the first production version of the Flyer III with the "A" modifications. That specific machine (serial no. 1) was built by the Wrights in the spring of 1907 and was based on the Wrights 1905 Flyer III. The original 1905 Flyer III test mule is available for inspection at Dayton, Ohio and is a work of art.
BearFlight 1 year ago
@g3speed14-They did, actually Wilbur did. This would have been about the distance of the first flight, 120 ft. The longest was 859 ft, in 59 sec. at an alt of approx 15 ft, try to imagine that. But whether, 100 or 1000ft, what really matter was the concept, it worked and the brothers knew that their ideals were intact. It is their approach to solving the challenge of flight tat makes them who they are.
warp13 1 year ago
Depois ainda dizem que isso aí é um avião.... E ainda que foi o primeiro voo.. hahahaha
Ricksonk 1 year ago
@Ricksonk-pelo menos que os irmãos Wright não estavam cheios do circo e as mentiras que ele tentou fingir ser o primeiro a voar! Que a verdade seja dita, aceitar e ver o que foi o primeiro a voar!
warp13 1 year ago
@warp13 o que eles inventaram não foi um avião, foi um planador. Santos dumont sim conseguia voar sem a ajuda de uma catapulta, ja que com catapulta até vacas conseguem voar...
Ricksonk 1 year ago
@Ricksonk -Você realmente não entendo o que eles inventaram, como muitos adeptos Dumont, não há nenhuma catapulta no vídeo está lá, a menos que seja invisível? Vamos discutir muito quando você realmente conhece os factos, caso contrário, eu estou perdendo meu tempo.
warp13 1 year ago
That looks Awesome!
MJLittleboy 1 year ago
what the hell was that?!
jonyadegari 1 year ago
Dumont, like all other experimenters of that time in Europe (France to be specific) had no understanding of what was required in their concept or designs for a successful airplane. Wilbur Wright came over to France in 1908 and taught the Europeans how to fly. The first flight of an airplane in Europe, as we know it today, occurred on Aug8, 1908. The first flight in the world occurred 4 1/2 years earlier on Dec17,1903 at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina in the USA.
BearFlight 2 years ago
@BearFlight
If you agree with only one snap shot ok its your problem, but you can't dissagree with hundred of eyewithness and official ducuments, sorry !!
neto26pa 2 years ago
@neto26pa-Because they didn't know any better in 1906, especially in Europe (and I don't mean this in a bad way). If you had a side by side comparison of the 14-bis to the FIII, you would understand that the basis of all future aircraft was born in the FIII. Once the Wrights flew in 1908-then look have fast aviation evolved-the Wrights filled in the missing pieces. There were more than one "snap" taken on Dec 17, check Smithsonian website. There is a "snap" of the FI alt 15ft. 600 ft from rail.
warp13 2 years ago
neto26pa-It doesn't matter if I believe the Wrights 1st flew on 17/12/1903 or on 8/8/1908, either one is still the first flight of the airplane as we know it. Several people had gotten off the ground for a short distance, with the first being Felix du Temple of France in 1874. The first non-Wright aircraft to fly was H. Farman in Oct of 1908 (after he licensed his Viosin-Farman I to use the Wrights patents). Dumont's first time in the air with an aircraft wasn't until April of 1909.
BearFlight 2 years ago