Fridabad, Bhai Manpreet Singh Kanpuri & Dasam Granth_Part 1

[harry8068]

I am very confused right now - I love to sing shabads and the shabad "As Kirpan Khand Kharag" is in the Amrit Keertan...should we not sing it then...why is this in the Amrit Keertan?

Please advise.

[SikhCentre]

@harry8068 There is no reason to be confused. Look for the meaning of the whole "As Kirpan Khand Kharag..." and the context in which it occurs. If you think it is in accordance with Gurmat Sidhant enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib, continue to sing it. If you think (as I do) that it violates many basic principles of Gurmat, decide accordingly.

[meripatnayatra]

Kanpuri is a Biggest LIAR abnormal Kid your assesment is veri right jan bhuj ke vivad paida kita.

[prince15480]

I agree, if Bhai Manpreet Singh ji knew that there are people in the sangat who gonna oppose the shabad which he gonna sing then why he sung that shabad at first place. Wat is think is here was the ego issue for BHai ji. My only concern was about the disrespect of Guru Granth Sahib JI and it could have been avoided by not singing this particular shabad and singing other shabad frm Guru Granth Sahib ji. it is very sad.

[81harmeet]

BAHUT KHOOB 22 JI

[avtar35]

Veer jee, Rehat maryada says sikhs can sing Baani of Ten Gurus.

Did you try to contact Manpreet Singh for clarification of his stand?

I do agree Charitropakhyan is not Guru Gobind Singh's Baani.

[SikhCentre]

Veerey, Rehat Maryada does not say "sing Baani of Ten Gurus". It says kirtan may only be of Gurbani and as explanation of Gurbani, writings of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal. You yourself point it out that Chritropakhyan CANNOT be the bani of Guru Gobind Singh ji. This is the issue -- that the whole Panth agrees that except for nitnem banis and amrit sanchar banis (that are not in Guru Granth Sahib) there is no bani which we can be sure is of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

[SikhCentre]

The controversial shabad that Manpreet Singh sang in Faridabad, was from Shastar Nam Mala Puran (of dasam granth). If he had sung any bani from nitnem (or recited during amrit sanchar) that is attributed to Dasam Patshah, there would have been no issues. Manpreet Singh needs to explain why he chose that particular shabad.

[avtar35]

Veer jee, I refer you to Chapter IV, Article VI, of Sikh Rehat Maryada. It states kirtan is to be done from Gurbani [ Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns],and for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nandlal may be performed.

Again my question is did you try to contact Manpreet Singh for clarification of his stand.

[SikhCentre]

You are reading the wrong version - there are no chapters in Rehat Maryada. Section 4, "Sadh Sangat vich jurh ke Gurbani da abhias" has unnumbered subsections - Gurduarey (clauses Urha to Ddhaddha, 19 clauses), Kirtan ( 4 clauses), Hukam lainna, Sehaj Path, Akhand Path, etc. Under "Kirtan" Following is listed: (next message)

[SikhCentre]

ਕੀਰਤਨ

ੳ) ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕੇਵਲ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੀ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਅ) ਕੀਰਤਨ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਗਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।

[SikhCentre]

ੲ) ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕੇਵਲ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਜਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ ਸਰੂਪ ਰਚਨਾ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਤੇ ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ।

[SikhCentre]

ਸ) ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜੋਟੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਜਾਂ ਰਾਗਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਿਆਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਮਨ-ਘੜਤ ਵਾਧੂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਲਾਉਣੀ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਉਣਾ ਅਯੋਗ ਹੈ। ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਦੀ ਤੁਕ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨਾਂ ਬਣਾਈ ਜਾਵੇ।

[SikhCentre]

The addition of "Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns" is a result of a letter written by a Sikh to SGPC to clarify whether kirtan from "dasam granth" is a violation of Rehat Maryada. SGPC could not answer the query either way without causing controversy -- for they could not differentiate between banis of nitnem and amrit sanchar on one hand and the rest of dasam granth. So they simply said "Guru Gobind Singh's hymns".

[SikhCentre]

In a separate letter, however, SGPC is on the record saying that "Chritropakhyan is NOT Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani". This means that "Guru Gobind Singh's hymns" does not mean "dasam granth" for Chritropakhyan is part of "dasam granth" but not accepted as "Guru Gobind Singh's hymns".

[SikhCentre]

Manpreet Singh, thus, should have had enough erudition and awareness about the ongoing debate on "dasam granth" in the community to having stuck to singing Gurbani or banis of nitnem and amrit sanchar. But he chose to sing from "Shastar naam mala PURAN". Regarding his explanation, it is available on YouTube -- unless he has lately changed his views.

[avtar35]

Why have Prof Darshan Singh, Sant samaj, Giani Gurbachan Singh etc not taken a stand against Naamdhariye, the real shareeks of Guru Granth Sahib with Jagjit Singh claiming to be the 14th Guru.

How are Naamdhariye less dangerous that Ashutosh, jhootha sauda cults

[SikhCentre]

I know it for a fact that Prof Darshan Singh has spoken against the whole of Sant Samaj (including Namdharis) at every opportunity. Our friend Manpreet Singh has not even once. As recently as last week, Prof Darshan Singh warned the Sikhs to be aware of "the conspiracy to wash dirth with dirt" -- on one side Ashu-tosh and on the other Dhumma and Dhadrianwala. I think it is time for Manpreet Singh to condemn both sides too.

[avtar35]

Veer jee how is Sant Samaaj same as Naam Dhariye? Jagjit Singh openly claims to be the 14 th Guru. When did Prof Darshan Singh or for that fact any Singh Sahiban etc have brought Naamdhariye to task?

Have you tried to contact Manpreet Singh to know his stand on these ?

The Rehat Maryada pamphlet I am referring to is 1994 english edition of Sikh Rehat Maryada.Which edition are you referring to?

[SikhCentre]

Veerey, you seem to be trying to take the discussion into "who is worse" area. Does it matter who is violating Maryada more? If you search the net you will find a lot about the Namdharis and where Prof Darshan Singh has commented on them directly or indirectly.

I do not need to contact Manpreet Singh - for I have not contacted Prof Darshan Singh either :-) Prof has always made his stand known - Manpreet Singh should do the same.

[SikhCentre]

I took those lines above on Kirtan from SGPC Rehat Maryada printed in 1989. If they are printing in parenthesis that "Gurbani means bani of Guru Granth and Guru Gobind Singh hymns" then you can see that this modification is not even 20 years old.

[dalvirkaur]

its not a big deal ,no one accept dasam granth as a guru so there should not be any issue

[vettvett666]

veer ji thank u very much ,,,,,,,,,,,,,doing good work,,,dasam granth guru ji de bani nhi ha,,,,i read dasam granth my self,,,,not even jap,,,,,and even chaupai,,so the awhloe dasam granth,,,not guru ji de bani a just,,,porno book,,,so go read thn u know,,thank you

[1RandomSingh]

we should not question nitnem and amrit baaniaan

[romeys007]

By the end of the day, we are all khalsa brothers and we can die for each other and guru granth sahib ji. No challenge to Guru granth sahibs authority. Coz sikhism is not a blind faith and it is a practical religion. Dasam granth in patna sahib and hazoor sahib has signatures of guru gobind singh sahib at the end validating its authanticity.

[SikhCentre]

I agree with first lines. But last line makes me wonder. You need to read more about "dasam granth". No bir has (in fact, CANNOT have) signatures of Guru Sahib. To answer why, read this article: sikhcentre[dot]wordpress[dot]c­om/2009/10/18/an-academic-look­-at-contradictions-in-story-of­-dasam-granth/

[romeys007]

you start denying on the basis of these things then you would only be left with nothing and you will loose your literature which they want.

[SikhCentre]

"Dasam granth" is not Sikh literature :-) These are translations of Hindu Puranas. For example in the beginning of Shastar Naam Mala it says "Ath Sri Shastra Naam Maalaa Puraan likhyate".

[romeys007]

These same people say that guru granth sahib ask us to meditate RAM, Hari, Krishan. What is your answer to them. We wouldnt be saying that we dont think guru granth sahib has not been written by guru ji because it says at allmost all places about ram, hari. Waheguru only comes at few places in SGGSJ.

[SikhCentre]

My friend if you read Guru Granth Sahib, you will know that answer is clear. "Hindu anna Turku kaanna..." And Ram, Ravann, Krishan, etc. are all used in their mythological meaning as well in Guru Granth Sahib. The context makes it very clear whether the word Ram is referring to Waheguru or "Raja Ram". So your argument only shows ignorance of those who make such claims.

[romeys007]

Dasam says kaal paye bramha baptara, kal paye sivju avtra, kal paye kar bisan parkasa. He has clearly stated that he does not believe in all these avtars but they have been created by him.. I would rather say the dasam is the utmost granth we need to attack them back

[SikhCentre]

Again, look for anything even remotely negative about"devi" or "kaali" or "parbati" or "shiva".

[romeys007]

Yes i agre there are some topics in chritrs which some sikhs dont agree but no one read those charitars in sangat. Kaal tuhi Kali tuhi is directing towards one waheguru and it clarifies our misconceptions that Guru sahib meditated Kali. We dont have orders to meditate devi devtasbut meditate only one god and dasam says kishan bishan kabhu na dhayoo

[SikhCentre]

See the example below and you might be better able to understand what the objection is about. No amount of interpretation can explain things like these. And your interpretation of "kaal tuhi kali tuhi" is off the mark. Keep in mind "devi worshiper" and you would know what he is saying.

[satnamkaur88]

veer jio mainu eh dasso ki jina de guru dasam granth hain oh apne guru da koi shabad mande ne te koi nahi kiyu .Tuhanu te maan hona chaida hai ki sade guru "GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI"SAMPOORAN GURU NE .jina bare koi kintu prantu nahi fir tuhade sache patshah khud keh gaye ne GURU MANYO GRANTH phir tusi kithe eh dirty book jihda tuhanu ik pana pasand hai te ik nahi kyu le ke firna chahnde ho .pls always go 4 the best in d world.

[romeys007]

No one challenges Guru granth sahib and we dont need to get scared with this concept at all. Guru granth sahib is a guide to the path of spirtuality and a path to meet that one allmighty in living being and dasam granth has a concept of awareness. Question is how you interpret the thing.

[SikhCentre]

I doubt you have studied "dasam granth". If you have, explain this:

ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਨੰ: 71 ਪੰਨਾ 901, ਜਿਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਪਦਮ ਲਿਖਦੇ ਹਨ,

[SikhCentre]

ਜਿਸ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਉਂਟੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਪਸ ਮੁੜਦੇ ਕਪਾਲ ਮੋਚਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਤਾਂ ਖਿਆਲ ਆਇਆ ਕਿ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਰੋਪਾਉ ਵਜੋਂ ਪੱਗਾਂ ਦਿਤੀਆਂ ਜਾਣ

[SikhCentre]

ਪਰੰਤੂ ਪੱਗਾਂ ਕਿਤੋਂ ਮਿਲੀਆਂ ਨਹੀਂ, ਕੁੱਝ ਸਿੱਖਾ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਟੇ ਤੇ ਬੂੜੀਏ ਵੀ ਭੇਜਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਪਰ ਇਤਨੀ ਮਲਮਲ ਉਥੋਂ ਨਾ ਮਿਲੀ

[SikhCentre]

ਅਖੀਰ ਫੈਸਲਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਤੀਰਥ ਲਾਗੇ ਜੋ ਪਿਸ਼ਾਬ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਫ਼ੜ ਲਓ ਤੇ ਉਸਦੀ ਪੱਗ ਲਾਹ ਲਓ, ਅਜੇਹਾ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਨਸੀਹਤ ਮਿਲੇਗੀ ਕਿ ਧਰਮ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਤੇ ਗੰਦ ਖਿਲਾਰਨੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਹੇਜ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ।

[SikhCentre]

ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਸਿਪਾਹੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਹੁਕਮ ਮਿਲਣ ਦੀ ਦੇਰ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਥੋੜੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੀ ਅਠ ਸੌ ਪੱਗਾਂ ਇਕੱਠੀਆਂ ਕਰ ਲਈਆਂ ਤੇ ਉਥੇ ਹੀ ਧੁਆ ਲਈਆਂ ਗਈਆਂ।

[SikhCentre]

ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਉਜਲ ਦਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਦੇ, ਆਏ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੰਡਕੇ ਸਿਰੋਪਾਉ ਦਿਤੇ ਗਏ। ਇਹ ਘਟਨਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਚਰਿਤਰ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਵਿੱਚ 71 ਨੰਬਰ ਤੇ ਦਰਜ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ। " (ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਪਦਮ, ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਪੰਨਾ 125)

[SikhCentre]

ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਲੇਤ ਸਭ ਧੋਇ ਮਗਾਈ। ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸਿਖਨਯ ਕੋ ਬੰਧਵਾਈ।

ਬਚੀ ਸੂ ਬੇਚਿ ਤਰੁਤ ਤਹ ਲਈ। ਬਾਕੀ ਬਚੀ ਸਿਪਾਹਿਨ ਦਈ। 9.

ਬਟਿ ਕੈ ਪਗਰੀ ਨਗਰ ਕੋ ਜਾਤ ਭਏ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਇ।

ਭੇਦ ਮੂਰਖਨ ਨ ਲਹਿਯੋ ਕਹਾ ਗਯੋ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਇ। 10.

[SikhCentre]

ਪ੍ਰਾਂਤ: ਵੇ ਸਭ ਧੁਲੀ ਹੁਈ ਮੰਗਵਾਕਰ ਸਭ ਸਿਖੋ ਕੋ ਬੰਧਵਾ ਦੀ। ਜੋ ਬਚ ਗਈ ਉਨੇ ਤਰੁੰਤ ਬੇਚ ਦਿਆ ਗੈਆ ਔਰ ਜੋ ਫਿਰ ਵੀ ਬਚ ਗਈ ਉਨੇ ਸਿਪਾਹੀਓ ਕੋ ਦੇ ਦਿਆ॥ 9॥

[SikhCentre]

ਦੋਹਾ॥ ਪਗੜਿਓ ਕੇ ਦਾਮ ਵਸੁਲਕਰ ਸੁਖਪੁਰਵਕ ਅਪਨੇ ਨਗਰ ਕੋ ਚਲ ਦਿਆ। ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਕਿਸੀ ਭੀ ਮੁਰਖ ਨੇ ਰਹਸਯ ਕੋ ਨ ਸਮਝਾ ਕਿ ਜਹ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰ ਰਹਾ ਹੈ॥ 10॥ (ਡਾ: ਜੋਧ ਸਿੰਘ, ਸੈਚੀ ਤੀਜੀ ਪੰਨਾ 346-47)

[romeys007]

We all meditate one waheguru and rest is all vanishable. The same dasam granth at many places completely disagree with hindu devis and devtas. It is improtant to know and have a knowledge about all those people who tried and meditate but entangled in maya( devis and devtas) , so that you dont get entangled in the same thing.

[SikhCentre]

You are only partly right about "dasam granth" speaking against devis & devtas. Try to find even a single line which questions "devi" or its various manifestations - Parbati, Shiva, Durga, Chandi, etc. It is quite clear that the writer of these stories was a devi-worshiper. The tradition in Hindu religion is that followers of Vishnu fight (sometimes in armed conflict through their "akhaaras") followers of Shiva and they both fight followers of "devi".

[SikhCentre]

Followers of Ganesh similarly will fight followers of other gods. Here is my opne challenge to all those who claim they have read "dasam granth" to find even a single line that speaks ill of "devi" or its many manifestations.

[romeys007]

Veerji, once again. Could you please tell me which rehat maryada are you talking about. One that is written by SGPC/akal takhat and panth accepted or one that you have ( sikh missionary college) sorted out. In SGPC/akaltakhat, it says that you can read guru gobind singhs hymns. You can read it your self. Veerji, i know we all have same thinking and we all know that Guru sahib was not a worshiper of any devi

[SikhCentre]

Veer merey there is only one Panth-parvaanit Rehat Maryada (the SGPC one). It says kirtan may be done of Gurbani (and as explanation of Gurbani, writings of Bhai Gurdas & Bhai Nand Lal). Now it is a later interpretation that "Gurbani" means Guru Granth Sahib "& bani of Guru Gobind Singh". At issue is which is bani of Guru Gobind Singh.

[midlandex]

anti dasam granth sikh not sikh any more

[SikhCentre]

I think you meant "anti-Guru Granth Sahib Sikh not Sikh anymore" :-)

[SikhCentre]

Veer merey Nitnem te kisey nee kintu kita. Kintu aa jehrha "shabad" Kanpuri ne parhya Faridabad vich. Eh "shabad" us "bani" vicho aa in the beginning of which it says "Ath Sri Shastra Naam Maalaa Puraan likhyate". Kanpuri Saab nu eni samajh ta honi chahidi si ki "kachi bani" da kirtan kar key oh Guru Granth Sahib di be-adbi karan laggey. If people stopped him from doing be-adbi of Guru Sahib, they were right to do so.

[cricket2008star]

its GURU GOBIND SINGH JI WHO WROTE DASAM GRANTH ........... SAME PERSON WHO WROTE IN GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE

[SikhCentre]

First, if you are so sure of your information, why remove your previous comment? Second, "dasam granth" says that before Visakhi of 1699, Guru Gobind Singh ji ney "Devi" pooji. "Devi" pargat hoyee tey uhney Guru Sahib nu Khanda dita, jerhrey Khandey naal Guru Sahib ney Khalsa saajya. Any true Sikh with even elementary knowledge of Gurmat would know that this is from Brahmin's pen. Anyone who says it is Guru Sahib's writing needs to do some soul searching.

[SikhCentre]

Veer merey, lagdaa Cricket barey tenu jiada pataa tey Gurmat barey jaankaari ajey thodi aa :-)

[singhja2]

Bro

Guru Gobind singh ji did not write any thing in GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI atleast :)

[satnamkaur88]

pls concern about the history n thn post the comments because GURU GOBIND SINGH patshah ji ne sirf apne pita GURU TEG BHADUR SAHIB JI di bani add kariyi si je OHNE BANI uchari ohndi te oh jarur add karde kisi pujari ya badal ne ohna nuy rokeya nahi si but he was having a too busy life as he had 14 jungs in the age of 42 he completed his life n in d past time jungs were not of a day or two they go for years n he had 14 jungs with his sikh soldiers n won all by grace of GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI only

[inderbhatia81]

bhai sahib gurbai vich keha gaya hai "Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani" matlab bani hi sada guru hai oh bhanein guru granth sahib vich likhi hove jan amrit kirtan vich..... vadiyan rehat maryada waleyo jara socho...... nale ik gal daso veer manpreet singh nu sare INDIA vich faridabad hi jaga labhi si... te nalo shabad kyon nai padna chahida.... ik pase tusin kehnde ho asin nai chande ke eh gaal agg vangu faile -- pher is video da ki matlab ki hai...

[SikhCentre]

Bhatia Veeray Gurbani Guru hai -- Par oh Gurbani jihrhi Guru Granth Sahib vich likhi aa te jehri Nitnem vich parhidi aa. Je ohi bani naal "kachi bani" jorh ke kise parkashak ney "Amrit Kirtan" naam di pothi chhap ti taan "kachi bani" sadi Guru nahi bann jandi. Rahi gall video di, eh video us video de response vich aa jihri Kanpuri wale Faridabad incident di YouTube te payee aa.

[singhja2]

Veerji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

A small request. Please don't compare Guru Granth Sahib ji with "Amrit Kirtan". Amrit Kirtan is published by some publishers like anyother normal book

[inderbhatia81]

Oh Bhai Sahib, Veer Manpreet ji ne kadi apne aap nu Vidvan nai keha... eh 4-5 points ik page te likh ke video bana len naal... kujh nai show hon vala---- tusin kehnde ho ke jo galtiyan Bhai Harjinder singh ya horan ne kitiyan ohna nu dohrana nai chahida.....par koi sabut hai tuhade kol ke ohna nu us vele rokya gaya si... Ragi singh tan ajj tak es shabad da ucharan karde aa rahe ne.... nale e sade pilli dastar vale virji kehnde ne ke kisi ne char panj shabad likh ke pothi tyaar kar diti hai.....

[SikhCentre]

Bhatia Saab, you should pay a little more attention to what is being said. Reference to "pothi" is about "Amrit Kirtan". And the words used "pili dastar vale virji" for "Amrit Kiratn" pothi are "kise parkashak ney kujh shabad ikathey kar key ik pothi tyar kar diti". That is accurate description of "Amrit Kirtan" pothi.

[tpsmahal]

Eh gall Sikha di rehat mareyada ch kite ni likhi ke amrit ya nit naim banis outside of guru granth shaib guru gobind singh ji diyan banis ne......Sikh path sarbloh te dasam granth diyan banis nu guru gobind singh dian banis manda hai...... ho sakda hai koi RSS ne nava sikh panth create kita hove jo tuhade vali gall manda hove....

[SikhCentre]

Mahal Saab' jabblian maaran naal sach nahi badl jaanda. Sarbloh granth ta "dasam granth" da vi hissa nahi. Baki rahi gal RSS di taan oh RSS de poster vekh leo jis vich Guru Gobind Singh nu devi poojdey vikhaya. When Sikhs objected, RSS countered that the poster only depicts what "dasam granth" says. I think you neither know much about RSS nor about Sarbloh or "dasam granth".

[tpsmahal]

Ratan Singh Jaggi ik sarkari veekau chamcha c ...jis ne paise lai te pressure ch aa ke thesis likh dite.......... Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha di book study kar mere veer..........sari gurbani guru gobind singh ji di hi hai..... te akal takhat ton ton v hukamnama hai ke sari dasam bani guru gobind singh ji di hi hai................

[SikhCentre]

Mahal veeray in 1966 "sarkari pressure" was to declare Sikhi to be "sword arm of Brahmins". Jaggi's research derailed that plan because Guru Granth Sahib is very clear about Sikhi view on Brahminical practices -- "Hindu anna, Turku kanna.." What u r arguing for is that Khalsa Panth sajeya gya Devi di puja karke. Jadon Guru Gobind Singh ji ney devi pujee, devi pargat hoyee te uhney Guru Sahib nu oh Khanda dita jihdey naal Guru Sahib ney Khalsa saajiya.

[SikhCentre]

Eh sabh "dasam granth" vich likhya. Je asi mann layiye ke "dasam granth" Guru Gobind Singh ji di likhat aa ta sanu eh vi mannana pau ki Guru Sahib devi poojdey si. Now you tell me who is RSS agent -- those who say "dasam granth" is NOT Guru Sahib's bani or those who say it is Guru Sahib's bani?? Also, Bhai Kahn Singh does not say "in his book" that "dasam granth" is Guru Gobind Singh's bani.

[RANGHI321]

u twisted the bani in Bachitar Natak just like every anti-dasam Granth person dose.. Every Bhram Gyani(Sant Mskin Singh ji, Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindrawale, Sant Kartar Singh ji Bhindranwale, sant Ishar Singh ji Rara Shaib wale,) and many more are with Dasam Ganth... and a handful people like u are going against all of those Bhram Gyainies trying to presuade Khalsa that 10asm Granth is not Guru Jis bani... can u name 1 Bhram Gyani that goes against Dasam Granth

[1RandomSingh]

"Ranghi321" jio, you are absolutely right about Bhram Gyani. You have already named some Bhram Gyanis who have been spreading bhram in the community :-)

[SikhCentre]

Personally I will not put Baba Jarnail Singh And Sant Singh Maskeen in the category of Bhram Gyani :-) [I like this term "Bhram Gyani".]

Kartar Singh Bhindranwale and Ishar Singh Rarey Wale? --- certainly Bhram Gyanis...LOL

[RANGHI321]

How are u gonna say Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was not a bhram Gyani. here is story When Sant ji was Meta Chonk Police issued arrest warrents for him ]. he told the polce that he will surrender himself after getting to Harmindar Sahib but the disagreed and placed the Punjab police on the routs baq frm Meta chonk to Golden Temple but the next day Sant ji was found taking a bath in the Srover of the Golden temple and after his nitnam he went to surrender himself

[SikhCentre]

LOL....ROFL....oye veer merey teri umar da ta mainu pata nahi, par meri umar eni ku hegi aa kay mainu yaad aa jehri incident nu tu refer karda. Arrest happened at Chowk Mehta and there was a firing by unknown people and police fired back killing and injuring some Sikhs. Rehi gall "bhram gyani" di ta mera message heth vekhi jehde vich Punjabi likhi aa :-)

[singhja2]

Bhai Sahib

Please don't degrade "BrahmGyani" word by using it for dunyavi lok.

[SikhCentre]

"singhja" our veer "Ranghi321" is not talking of ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ but is referring to ਭ੍ਰਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ;-)

[tpsmahal]

search google for sikh rehat mariada by sgpc.. then read chapter 5 and section 6.... u will find " In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed " ....guru gobind singh banis means banis from dasam granth and sarbloh granth..............

[SikhCentre]

Mahal Veeray, you being disingenuous. It may be your opinion that "Guru Gobind Singh's hymns" means writings of "dasam granth" and Sarbloh granth. But Panthic consensus is not what you say. According to Panthic consensus, only nitnem banis (outside of Guru Granth Sahib) may be accepted as Guru Gobind Singh's bani. If someone wants to do Kirtan of nitnem banis there are no objections. Again, I will refer to the meaning of word "Gurbani" -- Bani that is our Guru.

[tpsmahal]

Kirtan means singing the scriptural compositions in traditional musical measures. c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed.

[SikhCentre]

Mahal Veeray, read my reply to "romeys007". As to the quote you use, Panthic consensus on Rehat Maryada does not say Gurbani means Guru Granth Sahib and "Dasam Granth". That is an important distinction because there is no consensus on which writings are of Guru Gobind Singh. If you have any issues you need to counter research to challenge Ratan Singh Jaggi's research which says only around 50 pages of 1428 DG pages may be of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

[romeys007]

Baba ji, shame on the propoganda you guys are doing here. Its dasam granth now and later it will be guru granth sahibs criticism. You need to halt here. Show us where its written not to read dasam granths bani in sikh rehat maryada.

[SikhCentre]

Romey Veeray, Rehat Maryada says only Gurbani may be recited (and Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal's writings in explanation of Gurbani). "Dasam granth" poems started being recited under the assumption that it is "Gurbani". We need to understand that word "Gurbani" does not mean "Guru's bani" but "Bani that is Guru". That is "Shabad Guru" which according to tenth Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh, is Guru Granth Sahib and nothing else. Now rethink the whole issue.

[sharanrajput]

oh baba ji sahi tarah paroh Sikh Rehat Maryada Anusar Dasam Granth to shabad parh sakde ha

nalle tere to pushan di lodh nahi ki padna kai nahi podna

aaye vade sodhak panth dai

kine hi salla to dasam granth da kirtan ho reha hai hun tusi aa gaye chiller

Shame on you

[SikhCentre]

Rajput Veeray, for centuries caste had enslaved people but Guru Sahib discarded it. For decades, Mahants were performing Hindu rituals in Gurdwaras, but the Panth took control back and discarded most of these rituals. Something that has been happening "for years" does not justify it if someone puts forward a convincing argument that it is against Gurmat. Except for a consensus on Nitnem Banis, there is no one opinion on what is or isn't tenth Nanak's bani.

[tpsmahal]

according to rehat mariyada any banis of dasam granth can be recited from dasam granth........

[harnekification]

Can you please refer the page no. of Rehat Mariyada.

[satnamkaur88]

please go n read the Sikh Rehat Mariyada issued by SGPC only.i dnt think u had ever seen even bus video dekhi te post karn di jaldi theek hai post karo par argue na karo jaa ke pado te dekho whichone is right n wrong

[vidhiaveechari]

Sikh centre you are digging yourself a hole. Firstly you talk about panthic consensus and the collective khalsa panth making decisions, but people claim the rehit maryada (akal Takhat) was not panthic consensus.

The panth has already made a decision on the dasam granth. The Sodakh committee made its decisiona and you can read its report. If the panth decided the dasam granth is guru gobind Singh jees bani, then why cant it be sung?

We accept the Akal takhat when we feel like it..selfish

[SikhCentre]

Don't be naive. Firstly, don't assume that the other person doesn't know anything. Secondly, stop basing your argument on misconceived notion that somehow you are speaking for Guru Gobind Singh ji. Thirdly, you need to read the reports of "Rauh Reet Sub Committee" of SGPC which finalized the Rehat Maryada. That will tell you which clauses had Panthic consensus and which were put in abeyance.

[Kharkoo84]

also, the individual with the yellow pug said it would be okay if he recited jaap sahib on the vajaa.. according to his logic wouldnt that be violating akal takht hukam that we cant recite bani from dasam granth? i guess we all just recite "kachi bani" in the morning..

[SikhCentre]

You need to pay more attention to what is being said. There is no "kintoo" on Nitnem banis -- that is why no one would have objected if Manpreet Singh had recited Jaap Sahib. Question is why he recited that particulat shabad in a deliberate and calculated effort at incitement? Panthic consensus still is the same - except Guru Granth Sahib, Nitnem banis and writings of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, nothing else may be recited as kirtan. Period.

[Kharkoo84]

you also very conveniently left out the part where bha manpreet singh himself said that he places guru granth sahib ji at teh highest level, above dasam granth. His views are consistent with almost all sikhs... unless your a ghagga/kala afghana/spokesman supporter

[SikhCentre]

Issue isn't only what Manpreet Singh said. At issue is also what he has not said so far -- has he spoken from any stage about parkash of "dasam granth" being done in presence of Guru Granth Sahib?? Regarding "ghagga/kala afghana/spokesman" veeray strawman argument has never benefited a community. How would you respond if someone asks what kind of "Kharkoo" are you -- one like Sukha Sipahi or one like Jagjit Chauhan and Wassan Singh Zaffarwal??

[Kharkoo84]

Bhai sahib recidted a very popular pangti from dasam granth. Your video shows nothing more than a sad and pathetic attempt at demeaning a very well respected panthic parcharik. I do not know how you even have the courage to disrespect jarnail singh by claiming that he was trying to blackmail the sangat.. you claim actually made me laugh becase it brought into prespective how weak your argument actually is..

[SikhCentre]

Respect ensues from what the parcharik says or does. Baba Ram Rai was respected as Sahibzada before he violated the sanctity of Gurbani. After that Sikhs would not even acknowledge his existence. Regarding Jarnail Singh, his statement about "one or two miscreants" was a patently false depiction of reality. That is all that was pointed out and if u think it disrespects him you need to watch the video again.

[Kharkoo84]

i'm kind of confused with your logic here. The hukamnama issued by akal takht states that dasam granth is gurbani, however we aren't allowed to recite dasam granth bani on stage.. or according to your logic anywhere? ?it is very evident that the hukamnama implies the ability to recite bani from dasam granth.

[SikhCentre]

You are not confused...you are trying to confuse those who may not know what the Panthic consensus is on this matter, viz., Rehat Maryada. Akal Takhat cannot decide what is and isn't Gurbani. That right only the collective Khalsa Panth has.

[vidhiaveechari]

in a message you said i should brush up on history, btother its you who thinks others dont know anything.

I never never said im speaking for guru gobind singh jee, im merely qouting the panthic decision on dasam granth.

[vidhiaveechari]

Let me try again. I agree the rehit maryada is the panthic maryada, however im merely saying that sampardas are arguing that they did not agree to anything... Once the Akal Takhat has made a decision it should be accepted whether sampardas feel they did not agree the the maryada or not. your doing the same on the dasam granth. Like I said, the panth has made its decision on the Dasam granth and you can read the report, the report was accepted so its up to you if you wish to deny this.

[SikhCentre]

Let me try again too - when did the Panth decide on "dasam granth"? Who were the members of "sodakh committee" that you refer to? When was it constituted? Who were its members? How many sittings did they have? What was their report? Who accepted this report? Sampardas in the time of "Rauh Reet Committee" were the remanants of kicked out (pardon the term) mahants. Their arguments are what one should read in RRC's reports.

[SikhCentre]

To repeat myself, there is no Panthic decision on "dasam granth". Read my reply below. And I do think you are basing your statement on half-knowledge. Please do disprove me by answering the questions I asked in reply to ur message below :-)

[vidhiaveechari]

My friend im talking about samparads such as Taksal, Nirmala, Udasi, Nihangs, Sant Samaj, these sampardas whos names are in the lists being in meetings. These people are claiming the panth did not agree to the maryada. I disagree with their claims. However I pointed out that those who are against the dasam granth come up with the same arguments. Ironic really. As for mahants, just as all missionarys are not against Dasam bani, not all mahants were working against the panth, we should remember it

[SikhCentre]

That is a surprising statement. One, name a mahant who was not working against the Panth. Two, if you trace back the Sikh history to 1849, you would have much clearer picture of which of these sampardas gained strength when and how. "Rauh Reet Committee" reports tell us of the dubious role and arguments of those who stopped the Panth from getting rid of all anti-Gurmat practices introduced by mahants.

[SikhCentre]

You still have not answered the questions about "Sodakh committee" that you referred to.

[vidhiaveechari]

I have

[vidhiaveechari]

There have been many mahants from the past 300 years who have done great seva of the panth. Today we have people such as mahant kahn Singh, previously mahant Surjeet Singh, Mahant Tirath Singh jee. People of different sampardas have contributed in different ways, we should be respectful of that...

[SikhCentre]

"Mahants" were a post-Anglo-Sikh wars phenomenon, which is not 300 years old. Putting "Mahant" in front of one's name is enough for me to put the person in same league as those who put "Sant", "Sri 1008", etc. in front of their names. No offence :-)

[vidhiaveechari]

No offence taken brother. There is no problem with us putting sant in front of a saints name (as i understand). I know where your going with this, but its your opinon and everyone is entitled to their own.

[vidhiaveechari]

Brother you claim there is not panthic decision but then ask me details of the panthic decision... it makes no sense...any way the Sodakh committee decision was finalised around 1898 and was later finalised by the panth and signed at the Akal takhat. You can find the names of members, how many years it took , which granths were consulted etc all in the report itself..please read it rather than relying on others. Dr Ganda Singh in his Singh Sabha book also talks about it. Hope this helps veer ji

[SikhCentre]

I asked about the "Panthic" decision because your answer would prove there was no Panthic decision -- which your answer now did :-) Firstly, you need to find out more about Giani Mohinder Singh Ratan (the prime mover in the Sodhak Committee). Secondly, the Sodhak Committee collected disparate "birs" of "dasam granth" and from 1895 to 1897-98 "sodh kay" brought out one! Do you think anyone could have "sodhna" Guru Gobind Singh's bani??!

[vidhiaveechari]

This is why its so ironic. Those who oppose the SRM will say you need to read more into the the jatehdar of Akal takhat during the time and also the SGPC. Your doing the same with the Dasam granth decision.

As for the sodhak committe writings such as uggardanti, maalkauns kee vaar etc were not accepted... What the panth and Akal Takhat accepted should be accepted today, if you have issues regarding it, you should take your arguments to the appropriate forum (i.e. akal takhat). or accept it

[SikhCentre]

There is nothing ironic in it except the line of argument you are following. You want every Sikh to accept "dasam granth" as Guru Gobind Singh's bani by ignoring all the research that has taken place in more than 100 years since then. And if you are saying we should accept something merely because it has been accepted by Akal Takhat, please do accept the action of "Jathedar" Arur Singh in giving Siropao to Gen Dyer in the aftermath of Jallianwala massacre.

[vidhiaveechari]

ofcourse its ironic, your using the same logic, look at the persons jeevan etc. If the Akal takhat and 5 singhs make a decision, i accept it.

There has been alot of research in the past 100 years, for and against... however the appropriate forum was Akal takhat... not sitting in our bedrooms

[SikhCentre]

The position of Jathedar Akal Takhat does not go past mid-19th century. Every decision MUST be in accordance with Gurmat, otherwise Panth reserves the right to not accept it -- that is "budh"

Guru Sahib has given the Sikh. For example, take the "Sodhak Committee" report that you refer to having been accepted by Akal Takhat. That same Akal Takhat's hukamnama excommunicating Prof Gurmukh Singh was rejected by the Panth in 1887 as anti-Gurmat.Period.

[vidhiaveechari]

Giani Kirpal Singh jees book regarding Jathedhars differs from your opinions. The dasam granth decisions are according to gurmat. The Akal takhat has not rejected the sodak committee report so Prof Gurmukh Singh being used as an example does not work. This is why recent Akal takhat Hukamnamas and sandesh have reminded sikhs not to talk against the dasam granth...

[vidhiaveechari]

1 more point that i believe in, an individual does not consist of the panth... so if one does not agree, the appropriate forum would be the akal Takhat (but we dont seem to like this option).

[SikhCentre]

"My" opinion is based on research of more than hundred years -- which you don't seem to like :-) Regarding the recent advisories from Akal Takhat -- they say nothing should be said or done that creates controversy about "dasam granth". You seem to interpret it as meaning those claiming it to be tenth Nanak's bani can continue saying so while those challenging this opinion need to shut up. Correct me if I am wrong.Cheers.